Google Groups no longer supports new Usenet posts or subscriptions. Historical content remains viewable.
Dismiss
hypothetical ancestry of a reconstrued princess of Veliki Novgorod
86 views
Skip to first unread message
Sjostrom
May 25, 2012, 6:07:30 PM5/25/12
to gen-me...@rootsweb.com
1 NN of Veliki Novgorod (bc 1020)
2 prince Ilia Iaroslavich of Kiev, duke of Veliki Novgorod (fl c1019; dc
1021), possibly 'Eales' clodius
3 Estrid 'Margarita' of Denmark
4 Iaroslav the Wise, king of Kiev
5 [Anna] of Swabia
6 Svend 'the Fork-Beard', king of Denmark and England
7 Sigrid 'storrada'
8 Vladimir Sviatoslavich, king of Kiev
9 Raneda Ravalodovna of Polatsk
10 Konrad 'Kuno' of Oenningen, duke of Swabia
11 imperial princess Reginlint
12 Harald 'the Bluetooth', king of Denmark
2 prince Ilia Iaroslavich of Kiev, duke of Veliki Novgorod (fl c1019; dc
1021), possibly 'Eales' clodius
3 Estrid 'Margarita' of Denmark
4 Iaroslav the Wise, king of Kiev
5 [Anna] of Swabia
6 Svend 'the Fork-Beard', king of Denmark and England
7 Sigrid 'storrada'
8 Vladimir Sviatoslavich, king of Kiev
9 Raneda Ravalodovna of Polatsk
10 Konrad 'Kuno' of Oenningen, duke of Swabia
11 imperial princess Reginlint
12 Harald 'the Bluetooth', king of Denmark
Stewart Baldwin
May 26, 2012, 1:58:31 PM5/26/12
to gen-me...@rootsweb.com
"Sjostrom" <mqs...@gmail.com> wrote"
>1 NN of Veliki Novgorod (bc 1020)
>
> 2 prince Ilia Iaroslavich of Kiev, duke of Veliki Novgorod (fl c1019; dc
> 1021), possibly 'Eales' clodius
> 3 Estrid 'Margarita' of Denmark
What is the source for this supposed marriage?
> 4 Iaroslav the Wise, king of Kiev
> 5 [Anna] of Swabia
Is there any evidence for making Kuno of Öningen's alleged Russian
son-in-law the same as Iaroslav that goes beyond pure guesswork?
> 6 Svend 'the Fork-Beard', king of Denmark and England
> 7 Sigrid 'storrada'
>
> 8 Vladimir Sviatoslavich, king of Kiev
> 9 Raneda Ravalodovna of Polatsk
> 10 Konrad 'Kuno' of Oenningen, duke of Swabia
> 11 imperial princess Reginlint
This marriage is highly improbable.
Stewart Baldwin
>1 NN of Veliki Novgorod (bc 1020)
>
> 2 prince Ilia Iaroslavich of Kiev, duke of Veliki Novgorod (fl c1019; dc
> 1021), possibly 'Eales' clodius
> 3 Estrid 'Margarita' of Denmark
> 4 Iaroslav the Wise, king of Kiev
> 5 [Anna] of Swabia
son-in-law the same as Iaroslav that goes beyond pure guesswork?
> 6 Svend 'the Fork-Beard', king of Denmark and England
> 7 Sigrid 'storrada'
>
> 8 Vladimir Sviatoslavich, king of Kiev
> 9 Raneda Ravalodovna of Polatsk
> 10 Konrad 'Kuno' of Oenningen, duke of Swabia
> 11 imperial princess Reginlint
Stewart Baldwin
Sjostrom
May 26, 2012, 7:26:38 PM5/26/12
to gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Subject: hypothetical ancestry of a reconstrued princess of Veliki Novgorod
>
>
> 2 prince Ilia Iaroslavich of Kiev, duke of Veliki Novgorod (fl c1019; dc
> 1021), possibly 'Eales' clodius
> 3 Estrid 'Margarita' of Denmark
What is the source for this supposed marriage?
>
* a statement about Estrid's Rus marriage (approximate date: c1018) is made
by Adam of Bremen
(according to my notes, place is: Gesta Hammaburgensis, folio 39)
"...Chnut sororem suam Estred filio regis de Ruzzia dedit in matrimonium..."
in c1018, there was not too many known sons of kings of Russia old enough
to marry. But the young chap who was in c1019 set up as local ruler in
Veliki Novgorod by his father king Iaroslav the Wise, was surely one 'filio
regis' who fulfilled the criteria, also in respect to sufficient age to
marry.
* and also, one Margarita, by context (my conclusion) a daughter of Sigrid
Storrada, gets mentioned as wife of a prince in Kievan Rus, in an old text
of the MS Historia Norvegiae (in Monumenta Historica Norvegiae).
I do not doubt for a moment that there will exist such demented persons who
are not going to accept this possibility, just because it threatens their
preconceived notions. I have seen too often in genealogy groups the
existence of such dements.
> > 4 Iaroslav the Wise, king of Kiev
> > 5 [Anna] of Swabia
>
> Is there any evidence for making Kuno of Öningen's alleged Russian
> son-in-law the same as Iaroslav that goes beyond pure guesswork?
>
* the well-known basis of existence of any such marriage is: Genealogia
Welforum 4, MGH SS XIII, p. 734
which does not name the Russian bridegroom at all - its contents are: of
the four daughters of "*Couno comes*", "*Chuno comes"* and "*filia Ottonis
magnis imperatoris…Richlint*", the third married "*regi Rugorum*".
This has traditionally been used by genealogists to postulate a marriage
between the Oenningen lady and the elderly Vladimir. Which assignation of
husband of course is almost pure guesswork and in my opinion a misfit. The
Oenningen hypothesis has long been one of my favorite ones because if true
and productive in terms of daughters, it will provide explanation of
kinship with Salian emperors (such as emperor Henry III) to some Rus
princess. The Oenningen ladies should be born between c970 and c985. As
late as c1014 is very late for a marriage of any of the Oenningen
daughters. In c1000 (a much more plausible date), Vladimir (being married
with Anna porphyrogenneta) was not free to marry canonically. Of his sons
one who later became king, Iaroslav, was much better free to marry. I chose
to postulate this Oenningen marriage to Iaroslav Vlaimirovich. Instead of
his father Vladimir. With the full knowledge that its assignation by a lot
of other genealogists to Vladimir was no less of the kind of 'pure
guesswork' in any way than my choice.
Moreover, it is nowadays well known -from archaeological evidence- that
Iaroslav was already before Ingegerd married to another lady. And it is
nowadays known that Iaroslav had in c1019 (which coincidentally was the
approximate year of his last marriage, that with Ingegerd) already one son
(Ilia) who was old enough to be set as local ruler in Veliki Novgorod.
I do not doubt for a moment that there will exist such demented persons who
are not going to accept this possibility, those who will keep
intransigently the notion that it must have been Vladimir because that's
what they read somewhere then decades ago when they were introduced to the
topic.... I have seen too often in genealogy groups the existence of such
dements.
> > 10 Konrad 'Kuno' of Oenningen, duke of Swabia
> > 11 imperial princess Reginlint
>
> This marriage is highly improbable.
>
>
That's your opinion.
Many of respected genealogical standard works in our days give this
marriage.
I have not (yet) decided to discard the marriage of Konrad and Richlint.
I have seen in this group earlier that there exists demented persons who
oppose the existence of some person(s) in this specific root, but express
their view in such an opaque and imbalance-filled-problematic way
(figuratively, foam and froth coming out of mouth) that no one else is
usually able to gather any gist of facts they possibly have. Such demented
behavior is of course the worst when others are expecting to understand
what is allegedly incorrect in the thing itself.
* Historia Welforum Weingartensis names "*Richlint*" as wife of "*Couno
comes*".
(Historia Welforum Weingartensis 6, MGH SS XXI, page 460)
* a spurious (some regard it falsification) document speaks of property of
church of Oehningen, built according to the document by "*domnus Chono
comes de Oningen*" with the consent of "*uxoris sui Richlinde*..."
(D O I 445, page 601)
Of course I prefer the view that this Riclint was daughter of Liudolf and
Itta.
I have understood from your writings in public web that your opposition is
more or less limited to the direct filiation as daughter of Otto the Great,
and not directed at possibly being Liudolf's daughter:
"*Supposed daughter *(existence doubtful)*:*
[image: FEMALE]* Richlind*;
m. *Kuno* "of Öhningen" (*Konrad*, duke of Swabia?).
Richlind appears in genealogical sources of the "Welf" family. The earliest
mention of this supposed daughter of Otto is in *Genealogia Welforum*, from
about 1123×6, which states that the Welf Rudolf married Ida of Öhningen,
daughter of count Kuno by an unnamed daughter of Otto the Great ["*Ruºdolfus
uxorem accepit de Oningen Itam nomine, cuius pater fuit Chuºno nobilissimus
comes, mater vero filia Ottonis Magni inperatoris fuit.*" *Genealogia
Welforum*, MGH SS 13: 734 (here, "*uº*" should be read as an "*o*" above
the "*u*")]. This is supplemented by the Historia Welforum, from about
1167×74, giving the same information and supplying Kuno's wife with the
name Richlind ["*Roudolfus, frater superiorum, accepit uxorem de Oningen
Itam nomine, cuius pater Couno nobilissimus comes, mater vero eius filia
Ottonis Magni imperatoris fuit, Richlint nomine.*" *Historia Welforum
Weingartensis*, MGH SS 21: 460]. Richlind's name and supposed relationship
to Otto also appears in a false charter of Otto the Great from the last
third of the twelfth century [MGH DD O I, 601-3 (#445)].
The obvious problem with this information is that it is from a source
written 150 years after the death of Otto the Great, and there is no hint
from earlier sources that he had such a daughter. An extensive literature
has developed around the problem of the identity of Kuno "of Öhningen"
(i.e., was he identical with Konrad, duke of Swabia?), and with the problem
of the "Konradiner" genealogy, with the interpretation of the information
on Otto's supposed daughter Richlind being just one element (but an
important one) in these arguments. Although the disagreements on various
isuues have often been major, the arguments about Richlind have centered on
whether or not she was a daughter of Otto's son Liudolf [see, e.g., Wolf
(1980); Hlawitschka (1987); Jackman (1990); Hlawitschka (2003)], and it has
been widely agreed that Otto had no such daughter. These (lengthy)
arguments will not be discussed here."
Fortunately, this marriage's existence or non-existence does not have an
effect to the genealogical point that via Oenningen siblings, any
descendant of the Oenningen lady in Russia has kinship with Salian
emperors, descendants of Gisela, a niece of any such Oenningen lady.
>
>
> 2 prince Ilia Iaroslavich of Kiev, duke of Veliki Novgorod (fl c1019; dc
> 1021), possibly 'Eales' clodius
> 3 Estrid 'Margarita' of Denmark
What is the source for this supposed marriage?
>
by Adam of Bremen
(according to my notes, place is: Gesta Hammaburgensis, folio 39)
"...Chnut sororem suam Estred filio regis de Ruzzia dedit in matrimonium..."
in c1018, there was not too many known sons of kings of Russia old enough
to marry. But the young chap who was in c1019 set up as local ruler in
Veliki Novgorod by his father king Iaroslav the Wise, was surely one 'filio
regis' who fulfilled the criteria, also in respect to sufficient age to
marry.
* and also, one Margarita, by context (my conclusion) a daughter of Sigrid
Storrada, gets mentioned as wife of a prince in Kievan Rus, in an old text
of the MS Historia Norvegiae (in Monumenta Historica Norvegiae).
I do not doubt for a moment that there will exist such demented persons who
are not going to accept this possibility, just because it threatens their
preconceived notions. I have seen too often in genealogy groups the
existence of such dements.
> > 4 Iaroslav the Wise, king of Kiev
> > 5 [Anna] of Swabia
>
> Is there any evidence for making Kuno of Öningen's alleged Russian
> son-in-law the same as Iaroslav that goes beyond pure guesswork?
>
Welforum 4, MGH SS XIII, p. 734
which does not name the Russian bridegroom at all - its contents are: of
the four daughters of "*Couno comes*", "*Chuno comes"* and "*filia Ottonis
magnis imperatoris…Richlint*", the third married "*regi Rugorum*".
This has traditionally been used by genealogists to postulate a marriage
between the Oenningen lady and the elderly Vladimir. Which assignation of
husband of course is almost pure guesswork and in my opinion a misfit. The
Oenningen hypothesis has long been one of my favorite ones because if true
and productive in terms of daughters, it will provide explanation of
kinship with Salian emperors (such as emperor Henry III) to some Rus
princess. The Oenningen ladies should be born between c970 and c985. As
late as c1014 is very late for a marriage of any of the Oenningen
daughters. In c1000 (a much more plausible date), Vladimir (being married
with Anna porphyrogenneta) was not free to marry canonically. Of his sons
one who later became king, Iaroslav, was much better free to marry. I chose
to postulate this Oenningen marriage to Iaroslav Vlaimirovich. Instead of
his father Vladimir. With the full knowledge that its assignation by a lot
of other genealogists to Vladimir was no less of the kind of 'pure
guesswork' in any way than my choice.
Moreover, it is nowadays well known -from archaeological evidence- that
Iaroslav was already before Ingegerd married to another lady. And it is
nowadays known that Iaroslav had in c1019 (which coincidentally was the
approximate year of his last marriage, that with Ingegerd) already one son
(Ilia) who was old enough to be set as local ruler in Veliki Novgorod.
I do not doubt for a moment that there will exist such demented persons who
are not going to accept this possibility, those who will keep
intransigently the notion that it must have been Vladimir because that's
what they read somewhere then decades ago when they were introduced to the
topic.... I have seen too often in genealogy groups the existence of such
dements.
> > 10 Konrad 'Kuno' of Oenningen, duke of Swabia
> > 11 imperial princess Reginlint
>
> This marriage is highly improbable.
>
>
Many of respected genealogical standard works in our days give this
marriage.
I have not (yet) decided to discard the marriage of Konrad and Richlint.
I have seen in this group earlier that there exists demented persons who
oppose the existence of some person(s) in this specific root, but express
their view in such an opaque and imbalance-filled-problematic way
(figuratively, foam and froth coming out of mouth) that no one else is
usually able to gather any gist of facts they possibly have. Such demented
behavior is of course the worst when others are expecting to understand
what is allegedly incorrect in the thing itself.
* Historia Welforum Weingartensis names "*Richlint*" as wife of "*Couno
comes*".
(Historia Welforum Weingartensis 6, MGH SS XXI, page 460)
* a spurious (some regard it falsification) document speaks of property of
church of Oehningen, built according to the document by "*domnus Chono
comes de Oningen*" with the consent of "*uxoris sui Richlinde*..."
(D O I 445, page 601)
Of course I prefer the view that this Riclint was daughter of Liudolf and
Itta.
I have understood from your writings in public web that your opposition is
more or less limited to the direct filiation as daughter of Otto the Great,
and not directed at possibly being Liudolf's daughter:
"*Supposed daughter *(existence doubtful)*:*
[image: FEMALE]* Richlind*;
m. *Kuno* "of Öhningen" (*Konrad*, duke of Swabia?).
Richlind appears in genealogical sources of the "Welf" family. The earliest
mention of this supposed daughter of Otto is in *Genealogia Welforum*, from
about 1123×6, which states that the Welf Rudolf married Ida of Öhningen,
daughter of count Kuno by an unnamed daughter of Otto the Great ["*Ruºdolfus
uxorem accepit de Oningen Itam nomine, cuius pater fuit Chuºno nobilissimus
comes, mater vero filia Ottonis Magni inperatoris fuit.*" *Genealogia
Welforum*, MGH SS 13: 734 (here, "*uº*" should be read as an "*o*" above
the "*u*")]. This is supplemented by the Historia Welforum, from about
1167×74, giving the same information and supplying Kuno's wife with the
name Richlind ["*Roudolfus, frater superiorum, accepit uxorem de Oningen
Itam nomine, cuius pater Couno nobilissimus comes, mater vero eius filia
Ottonis Magni imperatoris fuit, Richlint nomine.*" *Historia Welforum
Weingartensis*, MGH SS 21: 460]. Richlind's name and supposed relationship
to Otto also appears in a false charter of Otto the Great from the last
third of the twelfth century [MGH DD O I, 601-3 (#445)].
The obvious problem with this information is that it is from a source
written 150 years after the death of Otto the Great, and there is no hint
from earlier sources that he had such a daughter. An extensive literature
has developed around the problem of the identity of Kuno "of Öhningen"
(i.e., was he identical with Konrad, duke of Swabia?), and with the problem
of the "Konradiner" genealogy, with the interpretation of the information
on Otto's supposed daughter Richlind being just one element (but an
important one) in these arguments. Although the disagreements on various
isuues have often been major, the arguments about Richlind have centered on
whether or not she was a daughter of Otto's son Liudolf [see, e.g., Wolf
(1980); Hlawitschka (1987); Jackman (1990); Hlawitschka (2003)], and it has
been widely agreed that Otto had no such daughter. These (lengthy)
arguments will not be discussed here."
Fortunately, this marriage's existence or non-existence does not have an
effect to the genealogical point that via Oenningen siblings, any
descendant of the Oenningen lady in Russia has kinship with Salian
emperors, descendants of Gisela, a niece of any such Oenningen lady.
Stewart Baldwin
May 30, 2012, 2:54:36 PM5/30/12
to gen-me...@rootsweb.com
"Sjostrom" <mqs...@gmail.com> wrote:
[snip]
> > > 10 Konrad 'Kuno' of Oenningen, duke of Swabia
> > > 11 imperial princess Reginlint
> >
> > This marriage is highly improbable.
> >
> >
should have. However, even though some have claimed the names to be the same
for the purpose of advancing poorly founded onomastic arguments, Reginlint
is not the same name.
> I have seen in this group earlier that there exists demented persons who
> oppose the existence of some person(s) in this specific root, but express
> their view in such an opaque and imbalance-filled-problematic way
> (figuratively, foam and froth coming out of mouth) that no one else is
> usually able to gather any gist of facts they possibly have. Such demented
> behavior is of course the worst when others are expecting to understand
> what is allegedly incorrect in the thing itself.
[plus other comments in the same vein]
Language note: Most people would find the word "demented" to be very
insulting, so unless it is your intent to deliberately p*** people off, it
might be best to avoid that word in the future.
Stewart Baldwin
[snip]
> > > 10 Konrad 'Kuno' of Oenningen, duke of Swabia
> > > 11 imperial princess Reginlint
> >
> > This marriage is highly improbable.
> >
> >
> That's your opinion.
> Many of respected genealogical standard works in our days give this
> marriage.
> I have not (yet) decided to discard the marriage of Konrad and Richlint.
I did not realize that you were talking about Richlint, although I perhaps
> Many of respected genealogical standard works in our days give this
> marriage.
> I have not (yet) decided to discard the marriage of Konrad and Richlint.
should have. However, even though some have claimed the names to be the same
for the purpose of advancing poorly founded onomastic arguments, Reginlint
is not the same name.
> I have seen in this group earlier that there exists demented persons who
> oppose the existence of some person(s) in this specific root, but express
> their view in such an opaque and imbalance-filled-problematic way
> (figuratively, foam and froth coming out of mouth) that no one else is
> usually able to gather any gist of facts they possibly have. Such demented
> behavior is of course the worst when others are expecting to understand
> what is allegedly incorrect in the thing itself.
Language note: Most people would find the word "demented" to be very
insulting, so unless it is your intent to deliberately p*** people off, it
might be best to avoid that word in the future.
Stewart Baldwin
taf
May 31, 2012, 10:19:27 PM5/31/12
to
On May 26, 4:26 pm, Sjostrom <mqs...@gmail.com> wrote:
> * and also, one Margarita, by context (my conclusion) a daughter of Sigrid
> Storrada, gets mentioned as wife of a prince in Kievan Rus, in an old text
> of the MS Historia Norvegiae (in Monumenta Historica Norvegiae).
>
> I do not doubt for a moment that there will exist such demented persons who
> are not going to accept this possibility, just because it threatens their
> preconceived notions. I have seen too often in genealogy groups the
> existence of such dements.
I am going to have to weigh in on the side of the 'dements'. I don't
> * and also, one Margarita, by context (my conclusion) a daughter of Sigrid
> Storrada, gets mentioned as wife of a prince in Kievan Rus, in an old text
> of the MS Historia Norvegiae (in Monumenta Historica Norvegiae).
>
> I do not doubt for a moment that there will exist such demented persons who
> are not going to accept this possibility, just because it threatens their
> preconceived notions. I have seen too often in genealogy groups the
> existence of such dements.
even accept that Sigrid Storrada is an authentic individual as opposed
to a legendary construct, let alone that a daughter can be deduced.
By the way, for those who want to know what the source says (as edited
by Storm):
"Tunc Olavus Norwegensis sororem Olavi Sveonensis nomine Margaretam,
quam diu digna vicissitudine intimi amoris privilegio dilexerat, in
ipso discessu desponsavit, sed frustra, nam eandem rex Iarezlafus de
Ruscia fratre cogente invitam duxit uxorem."
This is clearly the same story told of Ingegerd, Yaroslav's wife and
Olaf's daugher.
taf
Sjostrom
Jun 1, 2012, 3:00:46 AM6/1/12
to gen-me...@rootsweb.com
interesting to hear that someone voluntarily says to be demented.
Sjostrom
Jun 1, 2012, 3:31:11 AM6/1/12
to gen-me...@rootsweb.com
The important point to me in that piece of Historia Norvegiae is the use of
the name Margareta.
Because, who was Margareta? According to chapter 52 of the book II of Gesta
Hammaburgensis (by Adam of Bremen), Margareta's identity is reported:
'Chnud regnum Adelradi accepit uxoremque eius Immam nomine, quae fuit soror
comitis Nortmannorum Rikardi. Cui rex Danorum suam dedit germanam
Margaretam pro foedere. Quam deinde Chnut repudiatam a comite Wolf duci
Angliae dedit, eiusque Wolf sororem copulatam alteri duci Gudvino, callide
ratus Anglos et Nortmannos per conubia Danis fideliores, quae res eum non
fefellit. Et Rikardus quidem comes declinans iram Chnut, Iherosolimam
profectus, ibidem obiit, relinquens filium in Nortmannia nomine Rodbertum,
cuius filius est iste Willelmus, quem Franci Bastardum vocant. Wolf autem
ex sorore regis Chnut filios suscepit Bern ducem et Suein regem, Guduin a
sorore Wolf ducis Suein, Tostin et Haroldum [genuit parricidas].'
the name Margareta.
Because, who was Margareta? According to chapter 52 of the book II of Gesta
Hammaburgensis (by Adam of Bremen), Margareta's identity is reported:
'Chnud regnum Adelradi accepit uxoremque eius Immam nomine, quae fuit soror
comitis Nortmannorum Rikardi. Cui rex Danorum suam dedit germanam
Margaretam pro foedere. Quam deinde Chnut repudiatam a comite Wolf duci
Angliae dedit, eiusque Wolf sororem copulatam alteri duci Gudvino, callide
ratus Anglos et Nortmannos per conubia Danis fideliores, quae res eum non
fefellit. Et Rikardus quidem comes declinans iram Chnut, Iherosolimam
profectus, ibidem obiit, relinquens filium in Nortmannia nomine Rodbertum,
cuius filius est iste Willelmus, quem Franci Bastardum vocant. Wolf autem
ex sorore regis Chnut filios suscepit Bern ducem et Suein regem, Guduin a
sorore Wolf ducis Suein, Tostin et Haroldum [genuit parricidas].'
taf
Jun 1, 2012, 11:13:00 AM6/1/12
to
Svein Estridson.
Looks to me like Adam was just confusing aunt and niece - the
'sororem' of Cnut who was married to the son of the Russian King was
in fact Cnut's niece Ingegerd.
Did you notice that you have prince Ilia marrying the aunt of his
father's wife? A bit unlikely, don't you think?
taf
taf
Jun 1, 2012, 9:52:11 PM6/1/12
to
a Russian prince is not an error of Adam's, but rather an error by
whoever added the text in question to several 15th-century copies of
Adam's work. As confused as Adam was here, this particular flub is
not his fault, nor, coming as it does at least 2 centuries afterwards,
the author of this interpolation may have used the confused Historia
Norvegiae as his source.
taf
Andrew S. Kalinkin
Jun 2, 2012, 9:26:37 AM6/2/12
to
On 26 май, 21:58, "Stewart Baldwin" <sba...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> "Sjostrom" <mqs...@gmail.com> wrote"
>
> >1 NN of Veliki Novgorod (bc 1020)
>
> > 2 prince Ilia Iaroslavich of Kiev, duke of Veliki Novgorod (fl c1019; dc
> > 1021), possibly 'Eales' clodius
> > 3 Estrid 'Margarita' of Denmark
>
> What is the source for this supposed marriage?
This is a theory proposed about twenty years ago by a russian
> "Sjostrom" <mqs...@gmail.com> wrote"
>
> >1 NN of Veliki Novgorod (bc 1020)
>
> > 2 prince Ilia Iaroslavich of Kiev, duke of Veliki Novgorod (fl c1019; dc
> > 1021), possibly 'Eales' clodius
> > 3 Estrid 'Margarita' of Denmark
>
> What is the source for this supposed marriage?
historian
Aleksander Nazarenko. The original article can be viewed here:
http://dgve.csu.ru/download/DGVE_1990_full.djvu
(Nazarenko article is on pp. 167-190)
Here is one of his later works with a slightly more detailed
discussion:
http://dgve.csu.ru/download/Nazarenko_2001_full.djvu
(the marriage in question is discussed on pp. 476-504)
As was already noted, the utimate (and only) source for this theory is
a scholia to Adam of Bremen's work which claims that "Chnut sororem
suam Estred filio regis de Ruzzia dedit in matrimonium". The
identification of this unnamed russian prince, as well as the date
and supposed political context of this marriage, are Nazarenko's
"briiliant deductions" (in other words, pure guesswork). The whole
construction looks extremely unconvincing to me.
> > 4 Iaroslav the Wise, king of Kiev
> > 5 [Anna] of Swabia
>
> Is there any evidence for making Kuno of Öningen's alleged Russian
> son-in-law the same as Iaroslav that goes beyond pure guesswork?
I am aware of three versions of this supposed marriage, not counting
the idea that the whole story is just a myth, which is probably the
most likely of all versions.
The first theory makes Kuno's daughter marry one of Vladimir's sons.
This was the original position of Baumgarten, who remarks in
"Genealogies et mariages occidentaux de Rurikides russes" that
"Un des fils de St. Wladimir epousa la fille du Comte Cuno
d'Oeningen".
Although Baumgarten himself later abandoned this view, it seems to me
the best explanation, and IF the information of Welf genealogies about
the supposed Rusiian marriage of Kuno's daughter is reliable (a very
big if by itself), then I think it is likely to be correct.
The second theory, proposed by Baumgarten in "Le dernier mariage de
St. Vladimir", makes Kuno's daughter the last wife of Vladimir
himself,
married after the death of his Byzantine wife. It was regarded as more
or less the "standard" theory since then. Lately it was attacked by
Nazarenko, mostly on chronological grounds. The chronology for such
connection is indeed very long, but I think it isn't as bad as
Nazarenko
tries to put it and IMHO it still remains a possibility, although much
less likely than the first one.
The third theory was proposed by Nazarenko after his "refutation" of
Baumgarten's theory. According to him the husband o that poor girl
was Vladimir's brother and predecesso Jaropolk Sviatoslavich. The
marriage supposedly happened in mid-970s. I think this theory is
almost certainly false. Nazarenko sometimes get carried away by his
"ingenity" and this is, IMHO, one of the worst case. The original
version of his theory, where he wrote only about an unfilfulled
marriage
project, at least had some small degree of plausibility, although I
won't
buy even that. The final version, which includes actual marriage,
Jaropolk's conversion to Christianity, and his wife's flight to
Byzantium
after Vladimir's takeover, looks like an adventure history novel to
me.
But even though I think one of Vladimir's sons has the best chance to
be Kuno's misterious Russian son-in-law, I don't see Jaroslav as a
good candidate. One can expect that if a German noblewoman with
strong imperial ties got married in Russia, her husband would be
either
a prince with strong ties with central goverment in Kiev and
reasonable
expectation to succeed, or at least a prince with a domain in western
parts of Russia, who could have good connections with the West.
Although we know next to nothing about the situation in late 10th/
early 11th century Russia, the few remaining pieces of evidence
rather point that Jaroslav was neither. Vysheslav of Novgorod,
Iziaslav
of Polock, Sviatopolk (there is aparently a chronological window to
suggest an earlier marriage before his known union with Boleslaw's
daughter) or Boris all make better candidates for such marriage.
Andrew S. Kalinkin
Andrew S. Kalinkin
Jun 2, 2012, 10:31:51 AM6/2/12
to
On 1 июн, 06:19, taf <t...@clearwire.net> wrote:
> I am going to have to weigh in on the side of the 'dements'. I don't
> even accept that Sigrid Storrada is an authentic individual as opposed
> to a legendary construct
While the biography of Sigrid Storrada certainly has a very strong
> I am going to have to weigh in on the side of the 'dements'. I don't
> even accept that Sigrid Storrada is an authentic individual as opposed
> to a legendary construct
legendary component, I don't think the claim that she is merely a
"legendary construct" can be justified.
Let's start with such figures as kings Eric and Olav of Sweden and
king Svein of Denmark. I don't think there is any serious doubt
(please
correct me if I'm wrong on it) that they all are authentic historical
individuals. Then we could be reasonably sure that Olav wasn't
conceived by in vitro fertilisation, and therefore should have a
mother.
From here we can move to statments of sagas and Adam of Bremen that
Olav's mother later married king Svein of Denmark. I see no reason
to doubt this bit of information, confirmed by at least two
independent
sources.
So we have a woman, who first married king Eric of Sveden, and was the
mother of his successor king Olav; later remarried to king Svein of
Denmark and had by him a daughter Estred, mother of future king Svein
Estredsen, Adam's informant. Whether she was also the mother of king
Canute or not, a point on which sagas and Adam differ, can be debated.
All this looks real and authentic enough for me. And I don't see why
we shouldn't call this woman 'Sigrid Storrada' for convenience.
Now I can happily agree that the fancy story about unwanted suitors
put to flames may be a pure legend and have no connection whatsoever
with reality. But IMHO this doesn't turn Sigrid herself into a
"legendary construct".
Andrew S. Kalinkin
taf
Jun 2, 2012, 2:26:59 PM6/2/12
to
On Jun 2, 7:31 am, "Andrew S. Kalinkin" <kalinkin_and...@mail.ru>
wrote:
Olaf did have a mother, but I see no particular reason to call her
Sigrid Storrada, particularly if she was also mother of Cnut and hence
apparently Polish. Throw out her seeming legendary parentage, her
various lovers and antagonisms that all bear the hallmark of legend,
and perhaps her name and what are we left with? It is almost an
existential question. Strip all this away, and is the woman that
remains 'Sigrid Storrada' in any meaningful sense, when she appears
neither to have been named Sigrid nor to have been storråda? What
remains is simply a genealogical placeholder, and to still identify
this cipher as 'Sigrid Storrada' is troubling because of all of the
baggage that comes along with the name.
I prefer to view Sigrid Storrada as a composite of this little-known
mother of Olaf (who also may have given rise independently to Snorri's
Gunhild) and a whole lot of legend and myth and invention, some of
which probably originally related to other people but accrued to the
developing Sigrid mythos. This historically authentic person, Olaf's
mother, is thus one of the sources for Sigrid, but not Sigrid herself,
in my view.
taf
wrote:
Sigrid Storrada, particularly if she was also mother of Cnut and hence
apparently Polish. Throw out her seeming legendary parentage, her
various lovers and antagonisms that all bear the hallmark of legend,
and perhaps her name and what are we left with? It is almost an
existential question. Strip all this away, and is the woman that
remains 'Sigrid Storrada' in any meaningful sense, when she appears
neither to have been named Sigrid nor to have been storråda? What
remains is simply a genealogical placeholder, and to still identify
this cipher as 'Sigrid Storrada' is troubling because of all of the
baggage that comes along with the name.
I prefer to view Sigrid Storrada as a composite of this little-known
mother of Olaf (who also may have given rise independently to Snorri's
Gunhild) and a whole lot of legend and myth and invention, some of
which probably originally related to other people but accrued to the
developing Sigrid mythos. This historically authentic person, Olaf's
mother, is thus one of the sources for Sigrid, but not Sigrid herself,
in my view.
taf
0 new messages