Continued Upton ancestry of Sarah Ferguson
wjhonson
http://www.genealogics.org/pedigree.php?personID=I00005872&tree=LEO
we see that
Richard Wingfield (1730-1788), 3rd Viscount /Powerscourt/
who is ancestral to Sarah Ferguson, Duchess of York
Richard's maternal grandparents are given there as Hercules Rowley and
Frances Upton
Through Frances, Sarah enjoy's another royal ascent.
Hercules /Rowley/ of Summerhill, co Meath, Ireland; MP Londonderry
"only son of his father" (Sir John Rowley by Mary Langford) died 19
Sep 1742
On 3 Jan 1705 he had married Frances /Upton/
one of the TWENTY children of
Arthur /Upton/ of Castle Upton; MP co Antrim for forty years
by his wife
Dorothy /Beresford/
Arthur Upton has a Will dated 1 Jan 1706, proved 20 Jun 1706 in which
he mentions his sons but of his daughters only states Rebecca, and "my
married daughters" without naming them.
Arthur Upton "eldest son" was born 31 May 1623 the son of
Henry /Upton/ of co Antrim; esq; Capt in the Army 1598; MP
Carrickfergus
by his wife
Mary /Clotworthy/
daughter of Hugh /Clotworthy/ of Massareene; Knt
by *his* wife Mary /Langford/
Henry Upton "second son of his father" was the son of
Arthur /Upton/ of Lupton, co Devon; esq
"Eldest son and heir of his father" (John Upton by his wife Anne Cowp)
by his wife
Gertrude /Fortesque/
Gertrude Fortesque was the daughter of
Hugh /Fortesque/ of Philleigh; esq
by his wife
Elizabeth /Chichester/ "eldest daughter" of
John /Chichester/ of Raleigh, co Devon; Knt
Will dated 1 May 1568, proved 1 Dec 1572 (43 Daper)
by his wife
Gertrude /Courtenay/
And here we're back into Leo's database again.
Elizabeth Chichester an 8th generation descent from
Edward III King of England
Will Johnson
John
> Here on Leo's great web sitehttp://www.genealogics.org/pedigree.php?personID=I00005872&tree=LEO
Here's another Upton and Langford connection for you:
Arthur Upton who married Dorothy Beresford had a sister Mary who
married Sir Hercules Langford, Baronet, of Sumerhill, Co. Meath. The
only surviving child of this marriage was a daughter Mary who married
Sir John Rowley, and they were the parents of Hercules Rowley who
married his cousin once removed Frances Upton.
Also, Arthur Upton's wife Dorothy Beresford has a few dozen
Plantagenet descents (most of which are probably royal). To get you
started her father was Michael Beresford of Dungarvon and Coleraine.
wjhonson
>
> Also, Arthur Upton's wife Dorothy Beresford has a few dozen
> Plantagenet descents (most of which are probably royal). To get you
> started her father was Michael Beresford of Dungarvon and Coleraine.
Thanks I found it.
Collins tells us that Miss ... Beresford, one of the four co-heiresses
of her father Michael of Coleraine and Dungarvon, married an Arthur
Upton of Temple Patrick.
This Michael had married Mary Leake daughter of Sir John Leake.
Michael's mother is given only as a "Miss Brooke" but his father was
Tristram Beresford of Coleraine, co Londonderry "third son" born
between 1567 and 1573 and yet living when his own father made his will
in 1608
Tristram was the son of Michael Beresford of Squerries, Westerham; Knt
by his wife Rose Knyvett.
Rose was the daughter of John Knyvett of Plumstead, co Norf; esq;
d.v.m. "eldest son" who had married Agnes Harcourt.
For Rose' great-great-grandparents I have (the asterisks in front
indicate a known royal ascent)
16 *Sir William Knyvett
17 Alice Grey
18 William Tyrell of Gipping, co Suff; Knt
19 Margaret Darcy
20 *Humphrey Bouchier; Knt (d.v.p. battle of barnet field)
21 *Elizabeth Tilney
22 *John Howard, 1st Duke of Norfolk
23 Margaret Chedworth
24 *Christopher Harcourt; Knt
25 Jane Stapleton
26 Unknown Darrell
27 Miss Somebody
28 John Barantyne of Little Hasely, co Oxon; esq
29 *Mary Stonor
30 Unknown Reade
31 Miss Somebody
Will Johnson
John
You can probably put stars in front of Alice Grey and John Barantyne.
And Leo has the info in his database to replace your "Unknowns" and
"Miss Somebodys".
Douglas Richardson
>
> Tristram was the son of Michael Beresford of Squerries, Westerham; Knt
> by his wifeRoseKnyvett.
>
> d.v.m. "eldest son" who had married Agnes Harcourt.
Will ~
I know of no evidence which proves that Rose, wife of Michael
Beresford, Esq., of Squerries (in Westerham), Kent, was the "daughter
of John Knyvett of Plumstead, co Norf; esq; d.v.m. 'eldest son' who
had married Agnes Harcourt."
The 1619 Visitation of Kent, for example, merely identifies Rose,
wife of Michael Beresford, as the daughter of "Joh’is Kneute de …."
Even if Rose was a Knyvett, there was more than one branch of the
Knyvett family in England in this period. What evidence do you have
for the alleged parentage of Rose, wife of Michael Beresford, Esq.?
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
wjhonson
You know that both Leo and stirnet just cite BP1934
And of course Burke's doesn't cite anyone because they suck :)
So that's where it stands. A house of cards.
Will Johnson
wjhonson
From John's prompting I now have filled in the following
17 *Alice Grey, her father John Grey, was the son of Reginald Grey,
3rd Lord Grey of Ruthvyn by his wife Joan Astley, both have royal
ascents
26 Thomas Darrell of Scotney
27 Thomasine Gresley
30 Robert Reade, Chief Justice of the King's Bench; Knt
31 Margaret Alphege
As to the claim that John Barantyne of Little Haseley, Chalgrove and
Chesley and of Henton which he sold in or about 1483, himself has
royal blood, I have not yet found that.
I have however found a great degree of detail on at least some of
John's ancestors which I hopefully will be posting shortly.
Will Johnson
John
Evidence that "proves" Rose's parentage? Probably not. Evidence that
suggests her parentage? Possibly.
You yourself pointed out in 2006 that there are two visitation
references to Rose which appear to link her to the Knyvett family:
"Michael Beresford, Esq., of Squerries (in Westerham), Kent, died
1608,
married as his first wife, Rose Knyvet, daughter of John Knyvet. This
marriage is indicated by two Kent Visitation records as follows:
1. Philipot, Vis. of Kent 1619-21 (H.S.P. 42) (1898): 172 (1619
Vis.) (Beresford pedigree: "Michaell Beresford de Squirres in
p[aro]chia de Westram in co' Cantij. = Rosa filia Joh'is Kneute de
....").
2. Benolte & Cooke, Vis. of Kent 1530-1, 1574 & 1592 1 (H.S.P. 74)
(1923): 28 (1574 Vis.) (Beresford pedigree: "Mihell Beresford of
Oteford in Kent = Rose daughter of John Kneuitt"). "
[end of quote]
And you also added in a follow-on post that "the chronology fits well
for John Knyvet, Esq., and Agnes Harcourt
to be Rose (Knyvet) Beresford's parents".
And you certainly know, but fail to mention now, that John Knyvett who
married Agnes Harcourt had a sister Rose who married Oliver Reymes (or
Raymes). The dual use of the name Rose (for aunt and niece) is at
least suggestive of a relationship of some degree, although it doesn't
rule rule out placing her in some other branch of the family.
None of this is "proof" of course, but it's at least indicative of a
possible close connection - not unlike conjectures that have been made
by "professional genealogists" in other cases. I guess one's
acceptance of the conjecture as possibly valid depends on whether
you're the one making the conjecture....
PS: I'm not backing either horse in this race....
Douglas Richardson
< You know that both Leo and stirnet just cite BP1934
< And of course Burke's doesn't cite anyone because they suck :)
<
< So that's where it stands. A house of cards.
<
< Will Johnson
Will ~
As far as I know, there is no evidence (or cards for that matter) that
proves that Rose, wife of Michael Beresford, Esq., was the daughter of
John Knyvett, Esq. (living 1551), of Ashwellthorpe and Plumstead,
Norfolk.
Contemporary documentation indicates that John Knyvett, Esq., and his
wife, Agnes Harcourt, had three sons, Thomas, Knt., Edmund, and Henry,
and two daughters, Elizabeth (wife of Anthony Ashfield), and Abigail
(wife of Martin Sedley). No daughter Rose.
While it is certainly possible chronologically that Rose Bereford was
another daughter of this couple, I find no contemporary evidence which
links her to the Knyvett family of Ashwellthorpe. Even if Rose was a
Knyvett (which is debatable), there was more than one branch of the
Knyvett family in England in this time period. So even if it could
be shown that her father was named John Knyvett, that still would not
link her to John Knyvett, Esq., of Ashwellthorpe.
If you should find additional evidence, then by all means, please
advance it and post it here on the newsgroup. Until then, I think
Rose Beresford's parentage should be treated as unproven.
WJho...@aol.com
In a message dated 11/27/2009 1:05:37 PM Pacific Standard Time,
royala...@msn.com writes:
If you should find additional evidence, then by all means, please
advance it and post it here on the newsgroup. Until then, I think
Rose Beresford's parentage should be treated as unproven.>>
Of course. But unproven is not the same as uncited.
It's been cited in BP1934 and that's the citation I have through Leo and
stirnet.
Each citation has to be judged on its merits.
It possible this is actually based on something, and possible it's not.
That's why I can't stand the word "proven" :)
Everything is evidence for and evidence against, in my world. (At least I
try to do that.)
Will
Douglas Richardson
< It possible this is actually based on something, and possible it's
not.
< That's why I can't stand the word "proven" :)
Either there is evidence to prove the connection or there is not. In
this case, there is no evidence which proves that Rose Beresford was
the daughter of John Knyvett, Esq., of Ashwellthorpe, Norfolk.
If you find such evidence, then by all means, please advance it and
post it on the newsgroup.
WJho...@aol.com
In a message dated 11/27/2009 3:45:14 PM Pacific Standard Time,
royala...@msn.com writes:
Either there is evidence to prove the connection or there is not. In
this case, there is no evidence which proves that Rose Beresford was
the daughter of John Knyvett, Esq., of Ashwellthorpe, Norfolk.>>
There is no contemporary evidence of which we know.
I pointed out what evidence exists, several times. You just refuse to see
that a person can correct you, while not necessarily stating a case at all.
You made a hard and firm case, which we see now is non-existent. But it's
not likely you'll ever admit it.
Douglas Richardson
< You made a hard and firm case, which we see now is non-existent.
But it's
< not likely you'll ever admit it.
You either have the evidence to prove the Beresford-Knyvett connection
or you don't. It's very simple really.
Burke's Peerage is not evidence. Not the 1934 edtion, nor the 1938
edtion, or the 1999 edition.
So where is your evidence?
DR
WJho...@aol.com
In a message dated 11/27/2009 4:25:14 PM Pacific Standard Time,
royala...@msn.com writes:
You either have the evidence to prove the Beresford-Knyvett connection
or you don't. It's very simple really.
Burke's Peerage is not evidence. Not the 1934 edtion, nor the 1938
edtion, or the 1999 edition.
So where is your evidence?>>
It is evidence. My grandmother telling me is evidence as well.
Your definitions lack clarity and consistency.
I could send you a copy of Webster's if you like.
Douglas Richardson
< It is evidence. My grandmother telling me is evidence as well.
< Your definitions lack clarity and consistency.
< I could send you a copy of Webster's if you like.
Did your grandmother really tell you Rose Beresford was the daughter
of John Knyvett?
I think she fibbed. Just kidding you, Will.
WJho...@aol.com
In a message dated 11/27/2009 4:45:24 PM Pacific Standard Time,
royala...@msn.com writes:
Did your grandmother really tell you Rose Beresford was the daughter
of John Knyvett?>>
Actually she said John Kni......iiii niggit!
But I knew what she meant.
So I wrote it on an old box top from my box of Cheerios and kept it in my
file drawer until yesterday.