Continued Barantyne / Malyns ancestry of Sarah Ferguson
wjhonson
http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00381108&tree=LEO
we see that John Barantyne who married Mary Stonor and thus became the
ancestors of Sarah Ferguson (at least if we can agree with BP1934 who
claims that Rose Knyvett Beresford was a daughter of Agnes
Harcourt...)
Leo shows no good details on this John Barantyne but we can.
The first excellent note must come from some sort of detail called
"The Stonor Letters" at any rate stating that this John Barantyne who
married Mary Stonor was a son of John Barantyne by his wife Elizabeth
Popham a daughter of Sir Stephen Popham. Possibly Stephen has some
royal blood, but I haven't looked into him yet.
At any rate, this work tells us that John and Mary were likely married
by 22 Oct 1476 and probably both still under-age in 1481. We
certainly can know exactly that John was under age in 1474 when his
own father wrote his own will naming his children and that they were
all then minors.
John Barantyne quite likely came-of-age in 1482 or 1483, the first
year being the year he acquired Henton Manor, and the last year being
the year he sold it! We're very fortunate that he did, because it
allows us to know that this Barantyne family is the same one who held
Henton for at least three generations.
And then leads back to the Malyns family, but I skip.
Elizabeth (Popham) Barantyne was yet living 5 Aug 1475. Her husband
John left a will dated 28 Jun 1474 and proved 8 Apr 1477. John
Barantyne's parents were Drew Barantyne by his wife Jane Wroughton
daughter of Sir John.
Jane was holding Henton manor as her dower house as late as 1469,
while Drew had died in 1453.
Drew Barantyne was the son of Reynold Barantyne who inherited Henton
Manor in 1433 but died in 1441. I do not know the name of Reynold's
wife yet.
Reynold was the son of Thomas Barantyne and his wife Elizabeth Malyns
through whom the Henton property came. Thomas is given a life range
of (1368-1399) but no underlying source is cited for this.
Elizabeth Malyns was the daughter of Sir Edmund Malyns of Henton by
his wife Isabel Somebody. Edmund Malyns was yet a minor in 1368 when
his father Sir Reynold de Malyns made a will in which he so stated.
Sir Edmund Malyns died in 1385, his eldest son another Reynold Malyns
held Henton Manor in 1428 and d.s.p. in 1431. The younger son Edmund
must have already d.s.p. because the Manor then came to Elizabeth
(Malyns) Barantyne who had already been married by the time her father
died in 1385.
Isabel the widow was yet living in 1421 but apparently dead by 1424
when Reynold her son makes a conveyance of Henton Manor.
Sir Edmund Malyns was the son of Sir Reynold de Malyns of the 1368
will. Reynold had made the will because he was going overseas for a
brief time, but he returned and did not die until 1384. Sir Reynold
was the son of that Edmund de Malyns of Henton who was Sheriff of co
Oxon 1341, living in 1364, dead by 1368
Edmund was the son of Henry de Malyns, adult by 1303, who held all or
part of Henton Manor in 1303 and died in 1323.
By this long post, we've added eight more generations to this part of
Sarah Ferguson's ancestry.
http://www.archive.org/stream/publications30royauoft/publications30royauoft_djvu.txt
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=63816
Will Johnson
Doug
> On Leo's great web site herehttp://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00381108&tree=LEO
>
> http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=63816
>
> Will Johnson
I think this is a some variance from the account in VCH Oxon, vol. 8,
sub Chinnor, p 55 et seq.
Doug Smith
Doug
>
> http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=63816
>
> Will Johnson
Note - it appears to flesh out the VCH account.
Doug Smith
John
> On Leo's great web site herehttp://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00381108&tree=LEO
>
> http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=63816
>
> Will Johnson
Aside from "the Stonor Letters and Papers" and the VCH item that you
cite, what are your sources for the Barantyne ancestry?
You state (based on Stonor Letters presumably) that the wife of Drew
Barantyne was Jane, dau. of Sir John Wroughton However, in January
2008 Michael Andrews Reading posted information from this family
(primarily from VCH Oxon) indicating that Drew's wife was Joan Drayton
who subsequently married Sir John Marny. The VCH citations indicate
that Joan was dau. of Sir John Drayton of Nuneham (d. 1417). If VCH
is right, the Wroughton link seems questionable.
You asked about the wife of Drew's father Reynold (or Reginald). A
Barantyne pedigree in vol. 55 (1909) of The Oxfordshire Archaeological
Society indicates that Reginald had two wives. The one who was
apparently the first was named Elizabeth, while the apparent second
wife (and the mother of Drew) was Joan, dau. of John James of
Wallingford. FWIW this same pedigree also shows Drew's second wife
(and widow) simply as Joan, without giving her a surname or providing
any parentage.
In addition to being ancestors of Sarah Ferguson, all these folks are
also ancestors of Princess Diana.
Douglas Richardson
The immediate family and extended ancestry of John Barantyne, Esq.
(died 1485) and his wife, Mary Stonor, are covered by my books,
Plantagenet Ancestry (2004) and Magna Carta Ancestry (2005).
Both John Barantyne, Esq., and his wife, Mary Stonor, have royal and
noble ancestry. They are not, however, ancestral to Rose, wife of
Michael Beresford, Esq. The parentage of Rose Beresford is presently
unproven.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
WJho...@aol.com
In a message dated 11/27/2009 1:15:09 PM Pacific Standard Time,
royala...@msn.com writes:
Both John Barantyne, Esq., and his wife, Mary Stonor, have royal and
noble ancestry. They are not, however, ancestral to Rose, wife of
Michael Beresford, Esq. The parentage of Rose Beresford is presently
unproven.>>
"They are not" is declarative of your knowledge.
That's a expression that is too firm.
"We do not have any good evidence" is a better expression of the situation.
We have a citation, but we don't know if it's based on anything good.
They may be, they may not be. Stating they are not, is a statement
equally lacking in evidence.
We already know from my posting that John had "noble" ancestry if you mean
he was landed nobility, his family owned manors. But I pointed out that I
have no information that he had "royal" ancestry. He may have, I just
don't yet know it.
Will
John
> In a message dated 11/27/2009 1:15:09 PM Pacific Standard Time,
>
If John Barantyne who married Mary Stonor had "royal" ancestry, it's
definitely not noted in "Plantagenet Ancestry" (2004). The only
potential royal connection that I've been able to see is to King John,
but it involves a link which, although commonly accepted in the past,
seems to be dismissed by more recent writers, including the author of
"Plantagenet Ancestry".
So either "Plantagenet Ancestry" was wrong in 2004 in saying that this
John Barantyne did NOT have royal ancestry, or its author is wrong
today in saying that he does have royal ancestry. Which is it, I
wonder? Or do we have to wait for the new editions of the books for a
new "discovery" to be trumpeted?
It's also misleading to say that either "Plantagenet Ancestry" or
"Magna Carta Ancestry" covers the "extended ancestry" of this John
Barantyne - at least in the context of the Barantyne line, which is
the subject of this thread. RPA simply mentions his parents, while
MCA mentions his parents and grandparents in the Barantyne line. Not
exactly "extended" ancestry....
And I agree with Will's assessment of whether John Barantyne and Mary
Stonor are ancestral to Rose [Knyvett?] the wife of Micahel
Beresford: It's quite possible but not proven - but also not
disproven.
John
It appears that Michael Andrews Reading's post of January 2008 was
incorrect in saying that Joan Drayton, the wife of Drew Barantyne and
the mother of the elder John Barantyne who married Elizabeth Popham
was subsequently married to Sir John Marny. According to the
biography of Drew Barantyne in Wedgwood's HOP 1439-1509, he had three
wives, and the first and last were named Joan/Jane, perhaps leading to
Michael's misreading of the VCH OXON info. The three wives were (per
Wedgwood): (1) Jane, dau. of Sir John Drayton [mother of the elder
John Barantyne]; (20 Beatrice, illeg. dau. of William de la Pole, Earl
of Suffolk; (3) Jane, dau. of John Throckmorton of Fladbury, widow of
Robert Giffard, and subsequently the wife of Sir John Marny.
Douglas Richardson
On Nov 27, 2:53 pm, WJhon...@aol.com wrote:
> "We do not have any good evidence" is a better expression of the situation.
We have no contemporary evidence to associate Rose Beresford as a
daughter of John Knyvett, of Ashwellthorpe, Norfolk. No evidence
means no evidence.
> We already know from my posting that John had "noble" ancestry if you mean
> he was landed nobility, his family owned manors.
I believe you mean "landed gentry." Landed gentry is different than
nobility.
John Barantyne and his wife, Mary Stonor, both have royal and noble
ancestry.
Douglas Richardson
< And I agree with Will's assessment of whether John Barantyne and
Mary
< Stonor are ancestral to Rose [Knyvett?] the wife of Micahel
< Beresford: It's quite possible but not proven - but also not
< disproven.
All things are possible. In this case, the parentage of Rose
Beresford is presently unproven.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
WJho...@aol.com
In a message dated 11/27/2009 3:40:12 PM Pacific Standard Time,
royala...@msn.com writes:
John Barantyne and his wife, Mary Stonor, both have royal and noble
ancestry.>>
There is no evidence that John has royal ancestry.
None. Zero. Zip. Nill. :)
Your book certainly doesn't show it.
Douglas Richardson
< There is no evidence that John has royal ancestry.
< None. Zero. Zip. Nill. :)
< Your book certainly doesn't show it.
I believe you mean to say that John Barantyne has no Plantagenet
ancestry. But he certainly has both royal and noble ancestry.
You can find the necessary links to trace both his royal and noble
ancestry in my book, Magna Carta Ancestry (2005).
To help you out, I'll post one of his better lines of descent below.
Amice of Gloucester, wife of Earl Richard de Clare [Generation 1
below], is a well known descendant of King Henry I of England. The
line below is taken straight from my Magna Carta Ancestry book which
was published back in 2005.
Now if you can just find some contemporary evidence to prove Rose
Beresford's parentage, all will be well. I'm crossing my fingers for
you.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
+ + + + + + + + + + + +
1. RICHARD DE CLARE, Knt., Earl of Hertford, Magna Carta baron,
married AMICE OF GLOUCESTER.
2. MAUD DE CLARE, married WILLIAM DE BREWES (or BREUSE, BRAUSE).
3. JOHN DE BREWES, lord of Gower, also of Bramber, Sussex, married
MARGARET OF WALES, daughter of Llewelyn ap Iorwerth, Prince of North
Wales.
4. WILLIAM DE BREWES, Knt., 1st Lord Brewes, married (1st) ALINE DE
MULTON.
5. WILLIAM DE BREWES, Knt., 2nd Lord Brewes, married (1st) AGNES
_____.
6. JOAN DE BREWES, married JAMES DE BOHUN, of Midhurst, Sussex.
7. JOHN DE BOHUN, Knt., of Midhurst, Sussex, married CECILY FILOLL.
8. JOHN BOHUN, Knt., of Midhurst, Sussex, married ALICE _____.
9. BEATRICE BOHUN, married STEPHEN POPHAM, Knt., of West Dean (in West
Tytherley), Hampshire.
10. ELIZABETH POPHAM, married JOHN BARANTYNE, Esq., of Haseley,
Oxfordshire
11. JOHN BARANTYNE, Esq., of Little Haseley, Oxfordshire, married MARY
STONOR.
WJho...@aol.com
In a message dated 11/27/2009 4:20:22 PM Pacific Standard Time,
royala...@msn.com writes:
Now if you can just find some contemporary evidence to prove Rose
Beresford's parentage, all will be well. I'm crossing my fingers for
you.>>
Asked and answered. Three times. You're badgering the witness.
Douglas Richardson
< Asked and answered. Three times. You're badgering the witness.
All I requested was your contemporary evidence. If you have none,
that settles it I think.
WJho...@aol.com
royala...@msn.com writes:
All I requested was your contemporary evidence. If you have none,
that settles it I think.>>
Asked and answered four times.
Are you 12 years old ? Or 60?
Go eat some leftover turkey and get sick :)
Douglas Richardson
>
> Asked and answered four times.
> Are you 12 years old ? Or 60?
All I requested was your contemporary evidence. If you have none,
that settles it I think.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah