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Wiki-oriented website for medieval genealogy

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MoonMullins

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Jun 14, 2009, 8:01:24 PM6/14/09
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Beyond this discussion group, does anyone know of a website for
collaborative research to break through the brick walls in medieval
genealogy? What I have in mind is wiki-oriented site that is
searchable by the individual's name, along with corresponding web-
pages with all the known information about that individual.

Seems to me such a site, if it does not already exist, would
facilitate more progress in medieval genealogy.

WJho...@aol.com

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Jun 14, 2009, 8:08:32 PM6/14/09
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In a message dated 6/14/2009 5:05:25 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
nedh...@gmail.com writes:

> ----------------------

Such an idea is perfectly feasible at knol.google.com if you want to start
a page on any particular person. The more famous people probably should be
writen up at wikipedia itself, but the more obscure can still be put on Knol
which does not have a notability distinction. That is, you can write on
anybody.

Will Johnson


**************
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MoonMullins

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Jun 14, 2009, 9:57:52 PM6/14/09
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On Jun 14, 5:08 pm, WJhon...@aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 6/14/2009 5:05:25 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
>
> nedhaw...@gmail.com writes:
> > Beyond this discussion group, does anyone know of a website for
> > collaborative research to break through the brick walls in medieval
> > genealogy?  What I have in mind is wiki-oriented site that is
> > searchable by the individual's name, along with corresponding web-
> > pages with all the known information about that individual.
>
> > Seems to me such a site, if it does not already exist, would
> > facilitate more progress in medieval genealogy.>>
> > ----------------------
>
> Such an idea is perfectly feasible at knol.google.com if you want to start
> a page on any particular person.  The more famous people probably should be
> writen up at wikipedia itself, but the more obscure can still be put on Knol
> which does not have a notability distinction.  That is, you can write on
> anybody.
>
> Will Johnson
>
> **************
> Choose the home loan that saves you the most $$$. Agents
> available at ditech.com
> (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1221374924x1201371434/aol?red...
> 1%2F)

Thanks. I like the wiki-format very much - exactly what I have in
mind. However it appears that each page stands alone. What is needed
to really build participation, in my opinion, is a portal, or search
page, through which all "brick-walls" are linked, so that one can
search for all existing profiles (and by default, know when a new
profile is needed), along with an index page when there are multiple
matches on a particular name, which in turn would include birth/death
dates, etc., to easily distinguish one from another.

WJho...@aol.com

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Jun 14, 2009, 11:02:28 PM6/14/09
to nedh...@gmail.com, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
In a message dated 6/14/2009 7:00:22 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
nedh...@gmail.com writes:


> However it appears that each page stands alone. What is needed
> to really build participation, in my opinion, is a portal, or search
> page, through which all "brick-walls" are linked, so that one can
> search for all existing profiles>>
>

> You can do that in Knol through categories and hierarchy trees.
>
> The only question is, are you willing to start?
>
> Will
>
>


**************
Choose the home loan that saves you the most $$$. Agents
available at ditech.com

(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1221374924x1201371434/aol?redir=http:%2F%2Fclk.atdmt.com%2FDEG%2Fgo%2F153724534%2Fdirect%2F0
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RobinP

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Jun 15, 2009, 5:57:41 AM6/15/09
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On Jun 15, 1:57 pm, MoonMullins <nedhaw...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jun 14, 5:08 pm, WJhon...@aol.com wrote:
>
>
>
> > In a message dated 6/14/2009 5:05:25 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
>
> > nedhaw...@gmail.com writes:
> > > Beyond this discussion group, does anyone know of a website for
> > > collaborative research to break through the brick walls in medieval
> > > genealogy? What I have in mind is wiki-oriented site that is
> > > searchable by the individual's name, along with corresponding web-
> > > pages with all the known information about that individual.
>
> > > Seems to me such a site, if it does not already exist, would
> > > facilitate more progress in medieval genealogy.>>
> > > ----------------------
.....

> Thanks. I like the wiki-format very much - exactly what I have in
> mind. However it appears that each page stands alone. What is needed
> to really build participation, in my opinion, is a portal, or search
> page, through which all "brick-walls" are linked, so that one can
> search for all existing profiles (and by default, know when a new
> profile is needed), along with an index page when there are multiple
> matches on a particular name, which in turn would include birth/death
> dates, etc., to easily distinguish one from another.


MoonMullins, you and others should find just about everything you want
(free) on the Genealogy Wikia. http://genealogy.wikia.com.

WJhonson is already a member. I'm surprised he didn't suggest it; but
he hasn't edited much lately, so maybe it's not his style. We have a
dozen pages for Marianne Dillow's ancestors in addition to the many
she shares with a couple of United States Presidents.

The search box picks up any word of four letters or more, listing
first the pages that have it in their titles then all others that have
it somewhere in the text. Then if you don't find an article about
your brick wall person you can write your own and link it easily to
all his or her relatives' pages and display Ahnentafel and other
"tree" charts and as many external links as you like. Each page can be
in any number of categories, for surname, birthplace, birth year,
birth decade, ...

The site is in the process of incorporating Semantic MediaWiki, which
allows deep searches on selected facts. The following example displays
in a table (with selected other facts in sortable columns) all people
in the database who were born in New South Wales whose father was born
in the 1750s:
http://genealogy.wikia.com/wiki/Semantic_MediaWiki/demo_query-subquery

While you are waiting for some Google searcher to find your page, you
can join in "Project Charlemagne", which is wikifying the whole of
that great progenitor's descendancy. 885 at last count, all linked,
and it's only a matter of time before we match Ton Deunhouwer's file
of 100,000+ descendants.
See http://genealogy.wikia.com/wiki/Project_Charlemagne

Come and have a look. It doesn't displace email groups but can be a
very helpful accompaniment. It has a forum system that facilitates
discussions on specific threads, and you can edit a previous
contribution if you want to reword it. You can set your email
preferences so that you get notified when a page you are watching has
been edited, so you don't have to read every heading in the digest!
But if you do want to keep up with all activity, you can skim "Recent
Changes", which lists every edit.

M.Sjostrom

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Jun 16, 2009, 2:46:59 AM6/16/09
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Wikia:
I did, for experiment and experience, some pages there.
Feels clumsy and I felt left without functioning instruction.

Therefore, I likely would not bother.

The specific problem I faced, was that somehow, it's too difficult to get a spouse included there.
Now I guess that it really isn't omitted in their functions, any genealogy site cannot forget marriages and spouses. But, I spent half an hour trying to find what to do - and did not find it.
In other words, the system is hopelessly with bad, failing or missing instructions, and not intuitively compatible; and too much of a bother, seeing that on basis of this one problem, there'll be other technical problems in the future which will in all likelihood require too much time.

Besides, the output of that system is not too beautiful.
I did not get the lookalike of a tidy wikipedia biography, instead I got half-baked person pages with too much coded stuff, resembling a mess, and some stupid error red somewhere which I dunno what to do with.

as a wiki, this one is technically too different from e.g wikipedia, and it would not be reasonable to expect people to use so much time to learn techniques of this specific system.


RobinP

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Jun 16, 2009, 8:26:46 AM6/16/09
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I assume that your first page was the page called "Krister Ollinpoika
Uski (c1690-1764)". First comment is that you bravely tried the new
system using forms. It's been fully functional for about three days,
and its instructions haven't been finalized, but that's being worked
on.

Most of the boxes for data entry are fairly self-explanatory, as you
seem to have found (by entering first name, middle name, surname, sex,
father, sibling, and details of date and place of death), though
certainly not all boxes are yet perfect.

You, however, even with a clear invitation/instruction to
"Include...", put nothing at all in the rather important and fairly
obvious first box, which starts off:

{{header}}<!--Include any biographical text after "Biography" -->
==Biography==


That explains why you "did not get the lookalike of a tidy wikipedia
biography". Not the wiki's fault if you didn't do what you were
plainly invited to do. Only people write real biographies; machines
write only rough (though tidy) approximations of biographies. There is
a template that produces a skeleton biography, but it's optional at
present. Try typing {{biography}} next time. You can always delete it
and write your own if the result doesn't look any good. Or you can ask
me how to use part of it but insert your own variations.


Moving down a bit, we find a thin panel that has "Family information"
at the left-hand end and "[show]" at the right-hand end. I guess you
didn't think to hit "show" (a feature that appears on many thousands
of similar Wikipedia panels - "technically too different from e.g
wikipedia"??). Not "bad, failing or missing instructions": an
instruction is there, in plain simple English, but you again didn't
think to follow a fairly clear instruction. A note on the page where
you started says "Note:This form contains many subforms that are
normally hidden from view. If interested in entering information on a
topic, click on the show button alongside the item, and the subform
will appear." Maybe that should have been above the input box. I've
just moved it so that it is.

Hitting "show" opens up a couple of extra pages including sections for
ten separate spouses, partners, lovers, whatever, all using the
neutral term "coparent" (because if we said "spouse" we would be sure
to get people complaining that Charlemagne's mistresses were not
spouses and that we were therefore insulting all properly-married
people by using that term to include mistresses). For each "coparent",
you can tick or ignore the little box labelled "Married", and you can
insert details of children and sources in the larger boxes below.

I think I've covered your two main gripes. For each, the instructions
were possibly less at fault than you. Pity about the "stupid error red
somewhere" - I get those sometimes too; but with a system that has
been open for testing for less than a week I can forgive the hard-
working volunteer programmer and tell him what the error message was
and expect him to fix it.


But there's more to this story, discovered since I started this
reply.
User:Sjostrom had another try, 5 hours later (and apparently some time
after writing the above), with Krister's sister. This time, still no
written biography, but there are names of husband and child with
approximate year of wedding and some death detail. Hooray!!

See http://genealogy.wikia.com/wiki/Anna_Ollintyt%C3%A4r_Uski_(c1688-1754)


Now if readers prefer to do data entry without somewhat imperfect
forms, there's the tried-and-tested "info page" system:
http://genealogy.wikia.com/wiki/Genealogy:Info_pages. Data entered
after the"equals" signs on an info page gets incorporated similarly,
also with a nice Wikipedia-style infobox, and the data can later be
automatically transferred to the new "facts" system, so the work won't
be wasted.

M.Sjostrom

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Jun 16, 2009, 10:01:03 AM6/16/09
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M.Sjostrom

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Jun 16, 2009, 12:59:49 PM6/16/09
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again, I think I have too much wasted time in wikia: this time, I am unable to find how to *tidily* make links to children of a given married couple.


M.Sjostrom

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Jun 16, 2009, 8:55:48 AM6/16/09
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the marketer of genealogy wikia here,
unfortunately reconstrued incorrectly the order of my writings. I had written my post to this thread ONLY AFTER I had inserted BOTH of those pages to the problematic Wikia. Yes, INCLUDING Anna's page.

a gripe is that Anna's page does not show the box where would be her hubby, kid and daddy - although I most certainly had given those in what I had inserted.

above, the marketer has given the weblink to Anna's page - and as of this moment, her hubby, kid and daddy are still absent from that display.

In other words, there isn't even those details of the biography i most certainly wrote there.

And that's going to be useless: a genealogy software is not worth anything, if it does not deign to display the close kinshiops which most certainly are inserted to that database.

-----------------

all in all, if and when it is going to be this much of a chore to go through all sorts of half-baked instructions, before something simple and basic would be displayed as intended,
then the greatly marketed wikia genealogy is not gonna be attrative to contributors who are able to produce content but dont want to spend their life in learning intricacies of techniques of that particular system, and missing instructions.

-----------

There's also much to be desired in the tone of the marketer: no successful marketer ever made a success via defending a half-ready product....



Wanda Thacker

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Jun 16, 2009, 2:31:20 PM6/16/09
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I have used the genealogy wiki some and was able to link the children to their parents. I am not sure if I linked any spouses together yet, mostly because I was following the male line and have not gotten far enough to do the women yet.

Here is an example of one of my Wiki's on Humphrey De Lisle.  http://genealogy.wikia.com/wiki/Humphrey_De_Lisle_(1460-1516)

They have also just introduced a new RTF editor which I am going to try out. I suspect that it will be easier, because it says you don't have to know wiki markup.

Wanda Thacker

--- On Tue, 6/16/09, RobinP <Rob...@slingshot.co.nz> wrote:

See http://genealogy.wikia.com/wiki/Anna_Ollintyt%C3%A4r_Uski_(c1688-1754)

-------------------------------
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lostcopper

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Jun 17, 2009, 1:37:21 AM6/17/09
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I had much the same problem and left it behind.

RobinP

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Jun 17, 2009, 6:38:16 AM6/17/09
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On Jun 17, 4:59 am, "M.Sjostrom" <q...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> again, I think I have too much wasted time in wikia: this time, I am unable to find how to *tidily* make links to children of a given married couple.

What do you mean by "tidily"? I see links there, in red, just waiting
to be clicked on and turned into pages, and/or copied and pasted into
a "create page" box. They have been added as a separate edit instead
of being added by use of the form. That's OK, normal wiki procedure as
on Wikipedia, for example: a heading followed by a list. Tidy.

RobinP

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Jun 17, 2009, 7:36:46 AM6/17/09
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On Jun 17, 12:55 am, "M.Sjostrom" <q...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> the marketer of genealogy wikia here,
> unfortunately reconstrued incorrectly the order of my writings. I had written my post to this thread ONLY AFTER I had inserted BOTH of those pages to the problematic Wikia. Yes, INCLUDING Anna's page.
>
> a gripe is that Anna's page does not show the box where would be her hubby, kid and daddy - although I most certainly had given those in what I had inserted.
>
> above, the marketer has given the weblink to Anna's page - and as of this moment, her hubby, kid and daddy are still absent from that display.
>
> In other words, there isn't even those details of the biography i most certainly wrote there.
>
> And that's going to be useless: a genealogy software is not worth anything, if it does not deign to display the close kinshiops which most certainly are inserted to that database.
>
> -----------------
>
> all in all, if and when it is going to be this much of a chore to go through all sorts of half-baked instructions, before something simple and basic would be displayed as intended,
> then the greatly marketed wikia genealogy is not gonna be attrative to contributors who are able to produce content but dont want to spend their life in learning intricacies of techniques of that particular system, and missing instructions.
>
.....


The mystery of Anna's page has been solved in part: where I quoted a
link to it above, the software here managed to exclude the final
closing parenthesis from the underlining that made the link. The bad
link is now a separate page that redirects automatically to the
correct page (the one M Sjostrom worked on originally), where there is
a Wikipedia-style infobox at top right containing several items that M
Sjostrom had correctly entered. (Children are placed in a separate
area and can just be listed, Wikipedia-style, as part of the text
under a standard heading.) One thing I find really puzzling is that
the writer could complain of being unable to find how to enter a
spouse AFTER successfully doing just that on Anna's page.


Now regarding the last sentence of the above response, it is simply
not true to call those instructions half-baked. The writer simply


didn't follow them at first. Remember I said:

"You, however, even with a clear invitation/instruction to
"Include...", put nothing at all in the rather important and fairly
obvious first box, which starts off:

"{{header}}<!--Include any biographical text after "Biography" -->
"==Biography==

"That explains why you "did not get the lookalike of a tidy wikipedia
biography". Not the wiki's fault if you didn't do what you were
plainly invited to do. "

When the instruction was eventually followed, an excellent bit of
biography appeared.


And the second original gripe, arising from not looking very hard at a


panel that has "Family information"

at the left-hand end and "[show]" at the right-hand end. At first you


didn't think to hit "show" (a feature that appears on many thousands
of similar Wikipedia panels - "technically too different from e.g
wikipedia"??). Not "bad, failing or missing instructions": an
instruction is there, in plain simple English, but you again didn't
think to follow a fairly clear instruction.

When that instruction was eventually followed, the boxes for marriage
details appeared and were filled in without apparent difficulty.


I won't try to work out the timing of other messages here in relation
to editing work on the wiki. But since this discussion started M
Sjostrom has succeeded in making a considerable amount of content for
at least those two pages - including substantial biographical material
- and has greatly expanded the article that I had started about the
region in Finland in which the people lived (linked from one of the
articles).

The "forms" approach has seemed difficult for M Sjostrom, although
sucess has come after a bit of guidance and following the instructions
more observantly.

To add pages for the children, it might be easier to use the well-
polished "info pages" system, introduced at http://genealogy.wikia.com/wiki/Genealogy:Info_pages
- maybe I should start them, as I know the children's names, dates,
and parentage. Yes, I'm off to do that right now. Then all the
necessary pages will be there, needing only small additions or
corrections in fairly obvious places, just as for Wikipedia editing.

Kind regards to all.

Renia

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Jun 17, 2009, 7:50:30 AM6/17/09
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This takes me back to this barn-storming project someone brought up a
couple of months ago under the auspices of FamilySearch.

M. de la Fayette

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Jun 17, 2009, 8:38:38 AM6/17/09
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Here there are another wiki-oriented website about genealogy and heraldry:

http://www.aristopedia.com

Mostly in Italian language, but basically a multi-language project.

-----Original Message-----
From: gen-mediev...@rootsweb.com
[mailto:gen-mediev...@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Renia
Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2009 1:51 PM
To: gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Wiki-oriented website for medieval genealogy

MoonMullins

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Jun 17, 2009, 12:14:42 PM6/17/09
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On Jun 15, 11:46 pm, "M.Sjostrom" <q...@yahoo.com> wrote:


I think you make some valid points.

In any event I think this discussion may be missing the larger point,
namely, that we might break through our genealogical brick walls more
quickly, and more effectively, if there were a website dedicated to
nothing but these brick walls. In this way it becomes a destination
where researchers know they can quickly find "pending" cases and get
to work solving them. Furthermore such a website should be designed
and constructed around 4 key principles:

1. A simple search function to find any entry
2. A "results" page that displays matching entries not just by last
name but also by useful groupings, say by geographical location, or
time period. This will likely attract researchers with particular
knowledge.
3. A "profile" format that allows the user to enter all relevant
information about an ancestor
4. A collaborative editing process

Maybe the knol technology will work, maybe not. I need to look it
over.

Welcome everyone's input. Thanks.

wjhonson

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Jun 17, 2009, 2:53:02 PM6/17/09
to

Like I said Ned you can already do this.
The problem historically has not been that it cannot be done.
The problem has been that there is no interest to *do* it.
At least not enough for it to become a reality.

Now if you are willing to *spearhead* the effort, then perhaps it can
get off the ground.
If you need help on setting up categories and a hierarchy tree on Knol
let me know, and I'd be willing to chip in a bit here and there. Just
not the main work ;)

Will Johnson


MoonMullins

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Jun 17, 2009, 9:45:32 PM6/17/09
to

Thanks for the offer of assistance. I may take you up on it if I can
get something up and running.

Also, I did not see how items #1 and 2 in my list - especially the
latter - were fully functional in knol at the moment. But I'll take
another look.

wjhonson

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Jun 17, 2009, 10:03:25 PM6/17/09
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On Jun 17, 6:45 pm, MoonMullins <nedhaw...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > 1. A simple search function to find any entry
> > > 2. A "results" page that displays matching entries not just by last
> > > name but also by useful groupings, say by geographical location, or
> > > time period. This will likely attract researchers with particular
> > > knowledge.


>


> Thanks for the offer of assistance. I may take you up on it if I can
> get something up and running.
>
> Also, I did not see how items #1 and 2 in my list - especially the
> latter - were fully functional in knol at the moment. But I'll take
> another look.

------------

I have snipped just the relevant parts of this thread.
I will give you a real-life example of how to do 1 and 2 using Knol
categories.

Start from my "city" here
http://knol.google.com/k/will-johnson/chairpotato-presents-full-movies-on/4hmquk6fx4gu/45#

On the side of this page, you see "Categories" with a list of
categories. You click on any one of those next.

Let's pick "Entertainment". Click on it and you will get a Results
Page, that shows all Knol pages that have been categorized as
Entertainment.

On that page, in the upper-right-hand corner you will see "Search
Toolkit" with the response "incategory:entertainment". This is an
automagic response, you didn't type it, it comes just because you
clicked on the category Entertainment.

Now for the magic. Do not remove the "incategory:entertainment",
instead just move to the end of it and add a space and then type
something extra like "Smith" or whatever and click Search.

Now your next response page will be just articles with Smith in them
which *are also* in category Entertainment.

So in your case, you start small with a category like "Genealogy Dead
Ends" of whatever you want to call it. The "incategory" directive
allows you to essentially create your own mini-search-engine which
will only search within your pages, not the whole site.

You can create categories in a hierarchical tree as well, which is
your "narrowing it down based on other criteria" request. The whole
Knol system is still an infant just learning how to crawl. The more
we push the sides of the envelope the better it will become. The
first step takes a little effort.

Will Johnson

RobinP

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Jun 18, 2009, 12:03:06 PM6/18/09
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Thanks for the invitation. The genealogy Wikia has all four of those,
but it isn't "nothing but these brick walls". What advantage do you
see in having "nothing but these brick walls"? When a brick wall is
broken down, would you remove all of its info from "your" proposed
site? It might be just what someone else wanted for his or her brick
wall. Anyway, "knol" is also not "nothing but these brick walls".

Rob

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Jun 23, 2009, 12:08:55 AM6/23/09
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On Jun 14, 8:08 pm, WJhon...@aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 6/14/2009 5:05:25 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
>
> nedhaw...@gmail.com writes:
> > Beyond this discussion group, does anyone know of a website for
> > collaborative research to break through the brick walls in medieval
> > genealogy?  What I have in mind is wiki-oriented site that is
> > searchable by the individual's name, along with corresponding web-
> > pages with all the known information about that individual.
>
> > Seems to me such a site, if it does not already exist, would
> > facilitate more progress in medieval genealogy.>>
> > ----------------------
>
> Such an idea is perfectly feasible at knol.google.com if you want to start
> a page on any particular person.  The more famous people probably should be
> writen up at wikipedia itself, but the more obscure can still be put on Knol
> which does not have a notability distinction.  That is, you can write on
> anybody.
>
> Will Johnson
>
> **************
> Choose the home loan that saves you the most $$$. Agents
> available at ditech.com
> (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1221374924x1201371434/aol?red...
> 1%2F)

I like the idea of wiki-biography of every person born, lived and died
in the antiquity and medieval ages. Even the stillborns and the most
obscure ones. Each wiki-biography would have a disclaimer on each
known person: if the person die young or did not marry (or did marry
but actually no kids known), then this person is declared off-limit to
anyone who could create a false genealogical link. This could help
reduce the proliferation of false genealogies and claims.

RobinP

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Jun 24, 2009, 2:57:56 AM6/24/09
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On Jun 23, 4:08 pm, Rob <resh...@gmail.com> wrote:
.....

> > In a message dated 6/14/2009 5:05:25 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
>
> > nedhaw...@gmail.com writes:
> > > Beyond this discussion group, does anyone know of a website for
> > > collaborative research to break through the brick walls in medieval
> > > genealogy? What I have in mind is wiki-oriented site that is
> > > searchable by the individual's name, along with corresponding web-
> > > pages with all the known information about that individual.
>
> > > Seems to me such a site, if it does not already exist, would
> > > facilitate more progress in medieval genealogy.>>
> > > ----------------------
>

>


> I like the idea of wiki-biography of every person born, lived and died
> in the antiquity and medieval ages. Even the stillborns and the most
> obscure ones. Each wiki-biography would have a disclaimer on each
> known person: if the person die young or did not marry (or did marry
> but actually no kids known), then this person is declared off-limit to
> anyone who could create a false genealogical link. This could help
> reduce the proliferation of false genealogies and claims.


Well, Rob, the Genealogy Wikia aims to include just such a wiki-
biography of every person who has ever lived and died. Certainly
including the obscure ones. Not particularly planning to have separate
pages for stillborns, who could be mentioned on parents' pages, but if
anyone wants to give them their own pages there's no prohibition.

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, you could start with a look at
Project Charlemagne: http://genealogy.wikia.com/wiki/Project_Charlemagne
.

The most efficient current method of creating pages for individuals is
on http://genealogy.wikia.com/wiki/Genealogy:Info_pages - type or
paste the individual's name in the first input box and click, then
type or paste data in the relevant lines of the resulting edit box.
But first check whether your chosen individual is already on the wiki
or shown as a parent, spouse, or child on someone else's page (in
which latter case you should use the link given there).

If you get stuck, ask for help on the wiki or email me.

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