puerorum
Hans Vogels
14? What age period do I need to visualise by the Latin word juvenis?
Is there a person or a website that lists and explains these Latin
"age definitions"?
Hans Vogels, Helmond
Stewart, Peter
Unfortunately there was no standard for these terms - each writer described
people as he thought fit, and sometimes even a man who cannot have been
younger that his late 20s was called "juvenis".
Peter Stewart
Hans Vogels
Merckens and Hlawischka were able to do just wat ik inquered after,
otherwise my question would not have risen. I have seen some Latin age
definitions in print within papers but unfortunately I did not at the
time had the wisdom of listing them. I only started to put some
relavant data and knowledge together as I read and see to much so be
able to pinpoint the required info to the paper or article I saw it
in.
But you may be right in your statement. I am aware that there is no
garanty that Latin terminology in medieval Germany would be equal in
medieval France and England.
As I mentioned before I seek to list medieval terminology and age
customs to aid genealogical research. I have collected the following
age distinctions from the Dutch-Belgian-German area.
7 years.... minimal age that children were allowed to attest in a
family
........... setting to a deed done by their parents or wardens.
12 years... minimal marriage age for girls acording to medieval
canonical law,
........... and possibly minimal age for them to attest a deed done by
others.
14 years... minimal age on which boy might marry; minimal age on which
a boy
........... might attest a deed done by others; minimal age on which
they
........... (without warden on its own right) could buy and sell
property. In
........... some parts of the country according to customs this
abillity is
........... already possible on the age of twelf years. The higher
nobility
........... (counts and dukes were of age at reaching the age of
twelve).
18 years... of age according to feudal customs. Below this age a
family repre-
........... sentative or warden was nessesary.
24 years... coming of age in 14th century Noord-Brabant.
In 14th century Noord-Brabant a man could be looked as being of age if
he was emancipated by official document, usually when under the age of
24 on his own request, confirmed by his father, mother or warden that
he was able to live on his own and provide a living for himselve. If a
man blow the age of 24 got married he was also considered as being of
age.
Like I said I seek to enlarge this list with Latin age terminology and
more. It would seem handy to have a list of priestly functions
(cleric, canon, deacon, provost, bishop, etc.) and their required
minimal age, as lots of junior family members chose a carreer in the
priesthood.
I think that a list like I seek to make would come in handy when added
to the monthly FAQ. A earlier request for something like this to the
FAQ-provider went unanswered.
I could offer to provide a list of medieval termimology in English,
Latin, Dutch, French and German. In Warlops "The Flemish Nobility
before 1300" (1976) I noticed a list of 60 terms like: abbess, abbot,
advocate, alderman, allodium, almoner, scultetus, archdeacon, bailiff,
baron, etc.
With regards,
Hans Vogels
Peter....@crsrehab.gov.au ("Stewart, Peter") wrote in message news:<BE9CF8DEAB7ED311B05E...@v003138e.crsrehab.gov.au>...
D.C.Meister
Anywhere in my notes I have found the following list by Isidor von
Sevilla wich seems to be a kind of standard in medieval times. If I look
deeper in my notes I will possibly find in *wich* times he was used:
infantia up to 7 years
pueritia bis zu 14 Jahren
adolescentia 15. bis 28. Lebensjahr
iuventus 28. bis 49. oder 50. Lebensjahr
senectus oder gravitas
senium
Hope this helps,
Detlef
Reedpcgen
In England an "infant" was technically anyone under the age of majority - which
meant in many cases even up to and including the 21st year of a male. Maitland
even makes a point of this.
Paul
D.C.Meister
> Anywhere in my notes I have found the following list by Isidor von
> Sevilla wich seems to be a kind of standard in medieval times. If I look
> deeper in my notes I will possibly find in *wich* times he was used:
>
> infantia up to 7 years
> pueritia bis zu 14 Jahren
> adolescentia 15. bis 28. Lebensjahr
> iuventus 28. bis 49. oder 50. Lebensjahr
> senectus oder gravitas
> senium
I've found it in:
Edouard Hlawitschka, Kontroverses aus dem Umfeld von König Heinrichs I.
Gemahlin Mathilde, 1987.
He wrotes that especially beginning with Hrabanus Maurus (+856)in the
East frankish Kingdom these "age definition" would be more and more a
standard.
Detlef
Hans Vogels
This was indeed what I was looking for. I saw these distinctions
concerning the German medieval period in the works of Merckens and
others. For the history of the Dutch-Belgian-German border I need to
look eastwards.
Hans Vogels, Helmond
"D.C.Meister" <D.Me...@fhtw-berlin.de> wrote in message news:<3E2B0708...@fhtw-berlin.de>...
Douglas Richardson
Dear Hans ~
I suspect "puer" or "puella" can also mean hand maiden or servant, as
opposed to a blood child of the person named. If true, then a puella
presumably can simply refer to a young female servant in the household
("familia") of a high born noble man ("domini") or woman ("domina").
For some reason, I seldom encounter "puer" and "puella" in my
research. If the relationship is a blood one, the child is usually
called "filius" (son) or "filia" (daughter). I do see "adolescentia"
and "juvenis" occasionally.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Reedpcgen
381, gives
PUELL/A, virgin, the Virgin, nun; -AGIUM, -ARITAS, maidenhood; -ITAS, girlhood;
-US, lad.
PUER/, P. FEMINEUS, female child; P CHORISTA, choir boy; P. STABULI,
stable-boy; -CULUS, -ILUS, small boy; -ULA, little girl; [etc.]
Greek textx did use PUER/PUELLA at times to mean servant or maiden, or puella
to even mean a married woman or widow, so we have to be careful about what
context it is taken from. The RMLWL did not give servant as a standard
meaning.
In the case of Roger de Toeni, a little boy at his father Ralph's death ca.
1162, we have R. de Torigny using a different phrase: ...moritur, relicto
parvulo filio ex filia Roberti comitis Leecestriae...."
There had been quite a heated debate about these terms in British historical
circles some many decades ago. If I'm able to remember where the arguments
were published, I'll post it. There was no conclusive outcome that I recall as
far as British sources are concerned.
Paul
Hans Vogels
with a referencework. My incentive was a Dutch statement of 5-9-1281
in which Willem van Haarlem was the ward of his stepbrothers who were
called "puerorum". I knew I had read it somewhere but I could not
pinpoint the place.
Maybe this list of Latin age definitions is something to add to the
info in the monthly FAQ with the note that there is a distinction
between de medieval German sphere and the Anglo-French influence
sphere.
Hans Vogels
pc...@aol.com (Reedpcgen) wrote in message news:<20030120162928...@mb-mo.aol.com>...