the preposition 'von' in Dutch language?
M.Sjostrom
I know that the preposition 'van' is the preposition for signifying 'from' and 'of' in the Dutch, for example the genitive which is necessary in genealogical appellations.
and I know that usually, 'von' in high german, as opposed to dutch.
I am asking whether in any way the rendition 'von' is a genuine part of Dutch language.
So, is it really dutch when someone would be 'hertog von Brabant'.... ?
or, is 'hertog van Brabant' the correct - and 'von' incorrect in that ?
If 'von' is an authentic part of dutch language (as opposed to being part of un-translated german names in dutch verbiage), then how much that 'von' is used in the Dutch?
http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00008453&tree=LEO
is currently named: Johann I, Herzog von Kleef 1448-1481
Kleef is Dutch name for that town, and, really, that region spoke (and seemingly still actually speaks) Dutch dialect, and not high german.
The (high) german name for that place in: Kleve
so (absent the possibility that 'von' is part of native dutch language), I would think the consistent high-german name would be: Johann I, Herzog von Kleve
and the consistent Dutch name would be: Jan I, Hertog van Kleef
Volucris
> I know that the preposition 'van' is the preposition for signifying 'from' and 'of' in the Dutch, for example the genitive which is necessary in genealogical appellations.
>
> and I know that usually, 'von' in high german, as opposed to dutch.
>
> I am asking whether in any way the rendition 'von' is a genuine part of Dutch language.
> So, is it really dutch when someone would be 'hertog von Brabant'.... ?
> or, is 'hertog van Brabant' the correct -
and 'von' incorrect in that ?
>
> If 'von' is an authentic part of dutch language (as opposed to being part of un-translated german names in dutch verbiage), then how much that 'von' is used in the Dutch?
>
> http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00008453&tree=LEO
> is currently named: Johann I, Herzog von Kleef 1448-1481
>
> Kleef is Dutch name for that town
>, and, really, that region spoke (and seemingly still actually speaks) Dutch dialect, and not high german.
I'm not sure. Its a German place near the Dutch border,
>
> The (high) german name for that place in: Kleve
Yes
>
> so (absent the possibility that 'von' is part of native dutch language), I would think the consistent high-german name would be: Johann I, Herzog von Kleve
Yes
> and the consistent Dutch name would be: Jan I, Hertog van Kleef
Yes
Hans Vogels
Helmond, The Netherlands
M.Sjostrom
My assumption that people in the region of Kleef sopke and still speak Dutch, is based on a number of linguistical maps, reporting the situation in various centuries, and seemingly consistent in classifying Kleef as speakers of a Dutch dialect
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/af/Niederfr%C3%A4nkisches_Sprachgebiet.PNG
Thusly, I do not find any fault in presuming that population of Kleef had Dutch as their language.
Renia
My great-grandfather was Polish, but was a knight of the
Austria-Hungarian Empire. Nonetheless, his name became Franciszek Ritter
von Bugucki.
As to von v van - Leo would know more about this, but the etymologies of
Deutsch and Dutch are fairly close. Brabant itself swayed between Dutch,
Walloon and Flemish, so it all gets quite complex, depending on which era.