Champernownes the early generations: outstanding questions
mark harry
I have been reading with interest the archival threads relating to this devonshire family which I myself am researching. The consensus seems to be that the family are descended from Robert of Gloucester via his granddaughter Mabel "de Soliers". I have also seen the articles by Benson and Prideaux in DCNQ dealing with this subject, as well as the works of C. E. Champernowne (heavily based on Benson) and J. F. Williams.
Following on from the above, I have a few questions to pose to the forum:
1. What evidence is there that Henry Champernowne, father of Oliver Champernowne of Ilfracombe (Oliver d. by 1232) is connected to the Henry who appears in the scutage returns of 1166?
2. DCNQ claims that a Henry C. is called the brother of a Jordan C. in an undated deed of Roger de Mandeville in the cartulary of Montebourg. Do we have any further information on this deed and its likely date range?
3. Prideaux suggested it may have been dated pre-1166 but his comments predate the "Charters of the Redvers Family" revelation of Mabel de Soliers as the granddaughter of Earl Robert as well as being the mother of some Champernownes. On that basis "Mabira" cannot be the mother of the Jordan C. who married Mabel as then you would have a marriage between first cousins. If we take Mabira as Mabel's alter ego, does that affect Prideaux' suggestion for the deed's date?
4. If Henry C. son and heir of Oliver was born c. 1225, presumably Oliver was born c. 1200, and his father c. 1175. Could he be a son of Mabel since he seems too young to be the Henry who was living in 1166?
5. How can Jordan C. who was first witness to a deed of Henry de Tracy c. 1144 be the hisband of Mabel who was living c. 1200 and whose mother Hawise de Redvers was still living c. 1213?
6. What evidence is there that Mabel's husband was a Jordan C., and not, say, a Henry C? "Charters" has the former, but on what authority is unclear, as the deeds cited therein of themselves do not state this.
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! News - Today's headlines
Sutliff
developed the Champernoun or Camp Ernulfi line for AR7 (Line 124A). His
reconstruction significantly differs from that presented by Keats-Rohan and
others. The Richardson placements:
Robert de Caen - Maud FitzHamon
\
Mabira de Caen - Jordan de Champernoun
\
Henry de Champernoun - Isabel
\
Henry de Champernoun - Rohese de Tracy
\
Oliver de Champernoun - Dionisia English
Perhaps Richardson will defend his placements.
Keats-Rohan (DD:377-8) shows that the Henry married to Rohese (not
identified as a Tracy) and Jordan married to Mabira were brothers and that
Mabira was daughter of Robert, son of Robert and Maud, by his wife Hawise de
Redvers. The daughter Mabira of Robert de Caen and Maud was married to
William ap Ivor Bach.
Keats-Rohan does not name the father of Jordan, so I fail to understand the
basis of a suggested first cousin marriage between Jordan and Mabira made
in these other sources? The only possibility would be if Jordan's mother was
a sibling of either Robert FitzRobert de Caen or of Hadvise de Redvers,
however, daughters are named for both families in DD (232, 658) and there is
none listed as married to a Campo Ernulfi. Sorry if I am misunderstanding
your statement. The Jordan, son of Jordan and Mabira was, I believe, married
to Emma de Soligny.
It was Henry the brother of the first Jordan who was father of Oliver of
Ilfracombe, so there is no descent from Mabira so no chronological problem
there. I also see no chronological problem for Jordan to hold 2 fees at
Umberleigh in 1166 to be husband of Mabira (died closer to 1190) whose
mother Hadvise died near 1215. Hadvise and husband Robert married about 1147
(DD:658). It is also stated that she was several years a widow (as Hadvise
issued charters under her own name from 1184 on, it would seem likely that
Robert had died previously). It would also appear that Jordan died some time
after 1166 when his widow married William de Soliers and she died
subsequently near 1090.
Hope this helps.
Henry Sutliff
"mark harry" <duns...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:2002091710030...@web11706.mail.yahoo.com...
The...@aol.com
Hello Hap, Mark, et al.,
I have not studied this line per se, but did want to recommend searching
the SGM archives, but starting with Ronny Bodine's post of 18 Feb 1999, <The
Early Champernouns> .
The subsequent posts and threads on the family deal primarily with later
generations, but Ronny's post does establish the connection to both Robert
'de Caen', Earl of Gloucester, and to the descent via Hawise de Redvers as
indicated below.
Significantly, this does establish the Gloucester descent as being
through one Robert [of Gloucester ?], illegitimate son of Robert, Earl of
Gloucester. This also places both Jordan 'the younger', husband of Emma de
Soligny (Sulenny), and Henry as sons of Jordan de Chambernoun and his wife
Mabel [Mabira].
Hope this helps.
John *
1 Robert 'FitzRoy' of Gloucester
----------------------------------------
Birth: abt 1090, Caen, Normandy[1]
Death: 31 Oct 1147, Bristol[1]
Burial: Priory of St. James, Bristol
Occ: Earl of Gloucester
Father: Henry I of England (1068-1135)
Mother: NN [Not Married]
witness to charters of Henry I from Apr 1113;
fought at the battle of Bremule, 20 Aug 1119
(Henry I defeated Louis VI of France).
acquired Lordship of Glamorgan by marriage, ca. 1120[2]
created Earl of Gloucester before Sept 1122[1]
primary supporter of sister Matilda, ca. 1138 onward;
captured Stephen at Lincoln, 1141 together with Ranulf
of Chester[3]
captured 14 Sept 1141 by Stephen's forces, exchanged
for him November 1141.
Joined with Geoffrey of Anjou in conquest of Normandy, June 1142;
defeated Stephen at Wilton, 1143
patron of William of Malmesbury, possibly also Geoffrey
of Monmouth[1]
acc. to H. A. Doubleday and J. Brownhill, probably son
of Sibyl Corbet (also mother of Reynold de Dunstanville)
- cf. CP Vol V (Gloucester), p. 681[1]
ardent supporter of half-sister Matilda (vs. Stephen)
Spouse: NN [Not Married]
Children: Robert
Other Spouses Mabel FitzHamon
1.1 Robert of Gloucester
----------------------------------------
illegitimate son
made a gift to Quarr Abbey together with his
wife Hawise, ca. 1141/7[4]
Spouse: Hawise de Reviers[4]
Father: Baldwin de Reviers (-1155)
Mother: Adelise
Children: Mabel
1.1.1 Mabel of Gloucester[4]
----------------------------------------
she m. lstly Jordan de Chambernoun
2ndly William de Soliers[4]
Spouse: Jordan de Chambernoun[4]
Children: Jordan
Richard
Henry
1.1.1.1 Jordan de Chambernoun
----------------------------------------
1.1.1.2 Richard de Chambernoun
----------------------------------------
1.1.1.3 Henry de Chambernoun
----------------------------------------
1. "The Complete Peerage," G. E. Cokayne, 1910 -
[microprint, 1982 (Alan Sutton) ], The Complete Peerage
of England Scotland Ireland Great Britain and the United
Kingdom.
2. "A History of Wales," John Davies, New York: Penguin
Press, 1993 (orig. published in Welsh, 1990).
3. Ordericus Vitalis, "Historiae ecclesiasticae,"
www.deremilitari.org/lincoln4.htm, extracted May 15, 2002.
4. Ronny Bodine, "The Early Champernouns," Feb 18, 1999,
cites CP Vol. V (Gloucester), p. 686, and charter of gift
to Quarr Abbey.
* John P. Ravilious
Sutliff
researchers around and it is unfortunate that he is so busy in other
pursuits to infrequently post here. Recently I was able to identify the
correct ancestry of the wife of Sir Robert de Banastre of Mollington
Banastre, Cheshire and Newton, Lancashire (1241-1291) and the parents of
Lucy de Willoughby, wife of Nicholas Carew and Thomas Huscarle (thanks to
Peter Sutton) for his Dorothea Poyntz research. His reconstruction the later
generations and branches of the Champernouns are among the most thorough
posts ever made to this list. Sadly I felt it necessary to amputate my link
to this family owing to the uncertainty of the ancestry of Petronell
Chudleigh, wife of Anthony Pollard of Horwood, Devonshire.
The problem with the early generations does not appear to be the descent
from Robert of Gloucester, but rather that the Henry who held seven fees
from Oliver Tracy in 1166 was the son of Jordan and thus whether this Henry
has the Robert of Gloucester descent. Keats-Rohan is clearly of the opinion
that this Henry and Jordan were brothers as it would appear her citation of
BN (Bibliotheque Nationale manuscript) lat. 10087, pp. 102-3, no. 264 must
confirm this. Mark's keen observations that there might be chronological
problems suggest that this should at least be re-examined as to placement.
That there are multiple Henrys and Jordans in this family does not make it
an easy task, but we must make sure that we have correctly identified who
belongs in which placement.
Thanks for the contribution,
Hap
<The...@aol.com> wrote in message news:178.ed75e7...@aol.com...
Sutliff
Richard and William. No Henry. So the problem is whether Henry was brother
or son of Jordan and I think the suggestion that Mabira could be mother of
Henry who was apparently of age in 1166 is very problematic for
chronological reasons. As Hadvise married Robert circa 1147, I do not see
how Mabira could be Henry's mother. Does this make sense?
Hap
"Sutliff" <ss...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:Ippi9.3303$k27.2...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
The...@aol.com
Dear Hap,
Actually, the date '1147' is apparently not that firm a date. I have from Ronny Bodine's post I referenced, that the date for the gift to Quarr Abbey by Jordan 'the elder' and his wife Mabel/Mabira as 'ca. 1141/7' as noted in my post. If the date of the gift was 1141, or at any rate (given the marriage on or prior to the date of the gift) if the date of the marriage itself was say 1141, or before, Henry could easily have been a younger son and have been a son of Jordan and Mabel 'of Gloucester'. [This is of course assuming that Mabel was of childbearing age at the time....]
Cheers,
John
Sutliff
"de Redvers, Havisa
Daughter of Baldwin I de Redvers, earl of Devon. Wife of Robert, son of
Robert, earl of Gloucester, whom she married c. 1147. She died c. 1215 after
several years as a widow. For several charters issued in her own authority
from c. 1184 onwards see Redvers Chh. 113-120."
From: Robert Bearman, (ed.) "Charters of the Redvers family and the Earldom
of Devon, 1090-1217". Devon and Cornwall Society New Series, v. 37, 1994. p.
11 we know that Baldwin was married to his first wife Adelise by 1127 (and
perhaps as early as 1113) which considerably shortens the wiggle room for
Hadvise and subsequently Mabira./Mabel who was the only surviving child of
her parents. I would add that this book does not make Henry a son of Mabel
nor is he mentioned in any of her mother's charters which I can find. No.
114 (p. 146) indicates that Richard was the elder of Hadvise's two grandsons
and the notes mention that Jordan was the younger. Again no Henry. I would
mention that the second wife of Baldwin was Lucy de Clare, daughter of
Richard II FitzGilbert de Clare, who survived Baldwin.
Please understand I am not saying that Keats-Rohan is correct and that Ronny
is wrong. Rather I think there is sufficient (and to me, considerable) doubt
as to whether Henry was son of Jordan and that the Henry married to Rohese
was the one Ronny has identified in his post. The Redvers book which was
cited in his post does not make this connection.
I still think Mark Harry made some cogent observations in his original query
and I am not sure how much help my research may have helped him to resolve
his doubts and only may have increased my own. When this query originated I
wrote to Ronny privately for his opinion. It often takes a while to hear
from him, so we must be patient.
Hap
<The...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:2A2C8735.7F12...@aol.com...
mark harry
Thanks to the various contributors for their responses to date. A few clarifications:
1. The reason I spoke of a marriage between first cousins was because Prideaux and Benson had the first Jordan Champernowne marrying Mabira, daughter of Earl Robert of Gloucester, and his son Jordan (II) marrying Mabel de Solier, whose parentage was not known to either. With Mabel now being revealed as a daughter of Hawise and hence presumably of Robert FitzRobert, that would make her a niece to any daughter of Earl Robert's and hence a cousin to any child of such a daughter. Hence, the revelation of Mabel's Gloucester ancestry means that the Benson-Prideaux pedigree of the Champernownes needs revision.
2. "Charters" does not mention a Henry Champernowne, but then again, it does not include the deeds, cited by Benson and published in Horace Round's "Calendar of Documents in France", whereby Mabira and her sons Richard and Jordan donated the tithes and advowsons of the churches of Maisoncelles-la-Joudain and Cambernon to Cordillon Abbey near Bayeux, either. Is their omission from "Charters" significant or merely an oversight?
Mabira is described as "daughter of Count Robert" in the Cordillon grants, and Round took this to be Earl Robert of Gloucester. Benson followed him in this, although in his notes on the family now held at Exeter he also recorded correspondence in 1914 between J. F. Williams and Pierre Duprey of Cambernon in France wherein the latter, a local historian of long standing, calls Mabira "Lady of Gloucester and Maisoncelles", daughter of Robert of Gloucester, and owner of lands at Grimoult and Yorande in the Calvados.
Am I correct in saying that Robert FitzRobert was never a count, either in England OR in Normandy?
3. "Charters" shows that Mabel de Solier was still living after 1200, and a deed cited by C. E. Champernowne in which Jordan (III) is allowed to have his mother's lands and her home at Umberleigh in 1206 would suggest to me that she died around that year or shortly before. Benson says that Jordan (I) was first witness to a grant in 1146 by Henry de Tracy, baron of Barnstaple, to the Priory of St Mary Magdalene in Barnstaple. This grant should not be confused with the grant to Quarr Abbey by Robert FitzRobert and Hawise which was some time between 1141 and 1147 according to "Charters". Prideaux adds that he was told that Jordan was also a witness to a grant by William de Tracy to Gloucester Abbey in the period 1139-1148.
Jordan must surely have been of full age to be the first witness to a charter, therefore I cannot see him as being the husband of Mabel de Solier as he is clearly of an older generation.
4. I have not seen the Keats-Rohan article. Where and by whom was it published?
5. Henry of 1166 is clearly too old to be a son of Mabel's. What is not immediately clear is whether this rules Henry, father of Oliver, out as a son of Mabel's. This is why the dating for the Roger de Mandeville grant to Montebourg is important. My own feeling is that since Henry father of Oliver and Jordan (III) husband of Emma de Soligny were contemporaries, then Henry of 1166, contemporary of Jordan (II) father of Jordan (III), cannot be one and the same man as the father of Oliver.
7. I also have serious doubts about the Tracy connection to the Champernownes. Benson postulated that Rohese, apparent (because no document actually states as much, as far as I am aware) wife of Henry Champernowne (II) was a Tracy because Clist Wick, later called Clyst Champernowne, was a Tracy property which Henry le Bossu de Tracy, son of William de Tracy murderer of St Thomas A'Becket, calls his mother's marriage portion. Since Clist Wick was in the hands of the Champernownes by 1267, Benson suggested that it had come down to them through the marriage of Rohese, who he held to be a daughter of William de Tracy and sister to Henry le Bossu.
Souds fine, but it is not the only possibility-- with the Tracy estates confiscated (from memory!!) after Becket's murder the Champernownes could have received it in some other way. More importantly, if Rohese was a sister to Henry le Bossu then she should have been coheiress with Henry's other sister upon his death. If coheiress, why did Rohese only get Clist Wick?
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo!
Sutliff
Your doubts and questions seem well founded with me. As to some of your
questions:
_Domesday Descendants: A Prosopography of Persons Occurring in English
Documents 1066-1166 II. Pipe Rolls to Cartae Baronum by Katharine S. B.
Keats-Rohan, Woodbridge, Suffolk, The Boydell Press, 2002.
Their internet link:
I believe it is thought that Robert FitzRobert de Caen was a bastard. From
Robert de Caen's marriage with Maud FitzHamon, there are six known children:
William (Earl of Gloucester), Roger (Bishop of Worcester), Hamon, Philip
Richard (Archbishop of Rouen), Maud (wife of Ranulph, Earl of Chester), plus
a natural daughter, Mabel (wife of William ap Ivor Bach). Whether Robert
might be a full brother of Mabel or who their mother (s) was/were I have not
found. CP V:686 (b) mentions a son Robert, but queries his legitimacy. I
would also note that this source also makes Mabel a wife of Aubrey de Vere
with no mention of William ap Ivor Bach.
At to your Tracy questions, I am afraid I am not up to speed on that family
owing to conflicting sources. Keats-Rohan gives William and his wife Rohese
three or more children: Henry, Turgis and Geva (it is unclear if Geva is the
same as Grace, wife of John de Sudeley, a daughter of William, but not
stated as a daughter of Rohese, so the inference might be that she was a
natural daughter of William). The only others mentioned are Henry's son
Oliver I (d. abt. 1184) and Oliver's son Oliver II (d. 1210).
I would mention that AR7 (_Ancestral Roots of Certain American Colonists Who
Came to America before 1700_ by Frederick Lewis Weis, Baltimore:
Genealogical Publishing Co., 1992 (7th Edition) contains lines developed by
Douglas Richardson which places Rohese as daughter (who is listed at Line
124A-29) of William Tracy, but he places that William as son of William and
Rohese and not as son of Grace, wife of John de Sudeley. Indeed in Line
222-27 of the same book, it is specifically stated that Grace was not
daughter of the elder William or mother of the younger William. It states:
" Note: Grace is given in all standard sources as the dau. & h. of William
de Tracy of Devonshire. However, recent research reveals that William de
Tracy, d. ca. 1135, was succeeded in his lands by 1165 by another William de
Tracy who was apparently his son. This second William de Tracy was NOT
Grace's son as commonly claimed even though she had a son with this name.
Grace's son William de Tracy was an adult by the 1140's, and he seems to
have held only the manor of Toddington, co. Gloucester, of the honour of
Sudeley. Chronology suggests that Grace herself was likely of the same
generation as King Henry's bastard son William de Tracy. In any event she
was probably not William's daughter and certainly not his heir."
It is a shame that Richardson has not responded to help you.
Anyhow I believe you have demonstrated some valid concerns with these
ancestries and hope we can get closer to the truth.
Hap
"mark harry" <duns...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:2002092010415...@web11706.mail.yahoo.com...