children of Harold II
Rafal T. Prinke
As Godwin and Harold are discussed, I would like to raise
topic of his children. I understand his 3 sons from
the union with (probably) Eadgyth Swanneshals were
Godwin, Eadmund and Magnus. The names are apparently
given only by Florence of Worcester - does anyone have
the exact quote at hand?
Then two of them (unnamed) and their sister (Gyda)
appear at the court of Svein Estrithson in Denmark
(as related by Orderic Vitalis and Saxo Grammaticus).
Are there any theories of what happened to them next?
Best regards,
Rafal
Kevan L. Barton
I just needed to tell you all how much I appreciate you for all that you do.
I've been moving through the archives, pulling msgs, reading the mail,
keeping things in order. Anyway, I went to the Library of Congress with a
list of items to request from the stacks. The source suggestions came from
you all, the archives, and GENUKI. Sadly, I ran out of time at the library!
I was not even able to touch the Durham issues I had: Yorkshire took all my
time! I went away with well over 100pages of copied pedigrees, etc. I
even handled the Stemmata Chiceliana. They would not let me photocopy the
material as it resides in the rare book section (I was not asking to
photocopy, but was wondering if they had it on microfilm). Well, it is on
microfilm and I'll send for it the next time I'm at a FHS. I'd not known
anything about it if I hadn't asked you what "founders kin" was.
Anyway, thanks much for being such a good source. The recent discussion on
the Blounts is just one of the fine examples of what one can gain from
participating, rather than sitting on the sidelines.
Cheers,
Kevan
Renia Simmonds
University of Hull:
http://www.dcs.hull.ac.uk/cgi-bin/gedlkup/n=royal?royal01538
Renia
Gryphon801
seven children (six by his mistress) of which only Gytha, wife of Vladimir
Monomakh of Kiev, left issue. I believe this agrees with the best authorities.
Kelly Petit
"Rafal T. Prinke" wrote:
> As Godwin and Harold are discussed, I would like to raise
> topic of his children. I understand his 3 sons from
> the union with (probably) Eadgyth Swanneshals were
> Godwin, Eadmund and Magnus. The names are apparently
> given only by Florence of Worcester - does anyone have
> the exact quote at hand?
>
> Then two of them (unnamed) and their sister (Gyda)
> appear at the court of Svein Estrithson in Denmark
> (as related by Orderic Vitalis and Saxo Grammaticus).
> Are there any theories of what happened to them next?
>
> Best regards,
>
> Rafal
I have Gyda as married to Volodimir II of Kiew and their son named Mstislav the
Great.
Is this just another theory?
kelly
D. Spencer Hines
No.
This descent makes anyone who is descended from Edward III and Philippa
de Hainault --- his wife ----, a descendant of both William The
Conqueror and Harold II ---- Victor and Vanquished at the Battle of
Hastings.
--
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
"He'll say, You're a woman. Yes. You live in California. Yes. You
have a good job. Yes. You enjoy life. Yes. So why did you steal the
money? And you've been nodding along, and suddenly you're flustered,
you're off balance --- and he's got a reaction he can use." [N. B. On
Television --- With reference to a Mike Wallace-like character. ---
DSH.] Michael Crichton, "Airframe" (1996); Alfred A. Knopf, New York,
p. 282.
D._Spencer_Hines_TD [at] aya.ballast.yale.edu
Jettison ballast before testing rig in light airs.
All original material contained herein is copyright and property of the
author. It may be quoted only in discussions on this forum and with an
attribution to the author, unless permission is otherwise expressly
given, in writing.
"Kelly Petit" <kelly...@a2points.com> wrote in message
news:38DD1E51...@a2points.com...
Rafal T. Prinke
gryph...@aol.com (Gryphon801) wrote:
Thank you (and Renia) for reply. I know the standard version but
wondered if
anything new has been suggested concerning the later whereabouts of his
children. Gytha is well documented as a wife of Vladimir, Gunhild became
a nun,
the wife of Gospatrick I of Northumbria is more than doubtful as another
daughter
of king Harold - but what about his sons?
Harold junior (who may be identical with or twin of Ulf), the only
documented
child of Ealdgyth of Mercia (chronologically there could not be more
legitimate
children from this marriage), went to Norway where he was apparently
brought
up at the royal court and then in 1098 conquered Anglesey with king
Magnus
(even though his father killed Magnus's father at Standford Bridge). Did
he
have any known issue in Norway?
The other (elder) sons - named Godwin, Eadmund and Magnus (acc. to
Florence
of Worcester) - escaped to Ireland, probably to their aunt Driella, who
had
married Donough, son of Brian Boru. Anyway, they made two attemts to
recover
their father's kingdom in 1067 and 1068 (acc. to the Anglo-Saxon
Chronicle
and other sources).
But they did not remain in Ireland - the following year they (together
with their sister) appeared at the court of king Svein Estrithson in
Denmark and asked for help. Svein organised a large army from several
neighbouring countries and invaded England in 1069 and 1070. But
the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle (the translation available on-line) says
there came three sons of king Svein but does not mention those of
king Harold - would that be a translator's mistake? Should ASC be
read as refering to three sons of king Harold?
I am writing all this (otherwise well known) because there is a
hypothesis
proposed in an article by Tomasz Jurek, a Polish medievalist (which
I reported here two years ago when it was published, but it went
unnoticed). The hypothesis (quite convincingly presented) is, in short,
that Harold's son Magnus may be identical with the Magnus who later
appears in Poland as "comes" of Silesia (1093) and then of Masovia
(1109).
"Comes" was at that time a governor of a province and certainly was
not a member of the Polish ruling dynasty - and yet he was given
the tile of "duke" in the earliest Polish chronicle. The name itself
is also unknown in Poland at the time.
Important additional argument is the dating of Vladimir Monomach's
marriage. His detailed itinerary, included in the teachings for his
son, makes it possible to date it to mid-1074. The same source shows
that he spent much of the spring of that year in "Stutiejsk"
on the Polish-Ruthenian border, discussing the peace treaty with
Boleslaw II king of Poland. Then he went back to Vladimir (possibly
for the marriage ceremonies) but soon returned to Poland,
and they started a long war against Bohemia together.
Thus it seems to make sense that he met Gytha in the surrounding
of king Boleslaw II where she accompanied her brother Magnus.
Otherwise it is difficult to explain that marriage.
Finally - and most hypothetically - a 12th c. grave was discovered
in Czersk (the then capital of Masovia, where Magnus was the comes)
of a man who had rich and typically Norman equipment, a gold ring
and Nordic anthropological features. So it may be the tomb of Magnus.
A later tradition - known from the 16th century only - makes
this "comes Magnus" the progenitor of the clan Zaremba. If it
is accepted, then there would be a great many male-line descendants
(and innumerable mixed-line ones) living in Poland and elsewhere
of the last Anglo-Saxon king of England, the loser of Hastings.
Any comments?
Best regards,
Rafal
Stewart Baldwin
wrote:
>The other (elder) sons - named Godwin, Eadmund and Magnus (acc.
>to Florence of Worcester) - escaped to Ireland, probably to their
>aunt Driella, who had married Donough, son of Brian Boru.
This alleged marriage of Donnchad (Donough) mac Briain to a sister of
Harold II of England is not supported by any good evidence of which I
am aware. This was discussed briefly before in s.g.m. The earliest
known (to me) reference to this claimed marriage was in Haverty's
History of Ireland (mid-1800's), and all other mentions of this claim
which I have seen can be traced back either directly or indirectly to
Haverty's book.
Earlier references for this supposed marriage would be welcome.
Stewart Baldwin
KHF...@aol.com
In a message dated 3/25/2000 1:16:31 PM, kelly...@a2points.com writes:
<< I have Gyda as married to Volodimir II of Kiew and their son named
Mstislav the
Great.
Is this just another theory? >>
It is well documented and also stated in ES Chart 135.
- Ken
John P. DuLong
somewhat dated now, but I recall at least one of them mentions Gyda:
Evans, Charles F. H. "Descendants of King Harold." _The
Genealogists'Magazine_ 6 (December 1933): 348.
Moriarty, George Andrews. "Descent from Harold Godwinson." _The American
Genealogists_ 33 (July 1957): 188.
Rubincam, Milton. "The Family of Harold II, Last Saxon King of England."
_The American Genealogists_ 33 (April 1957): 87-94.
JP
John P. DuLong, Ph.D.
Acadian and French Canadian Genealogy
959 Oxford Road
Berkley, MI 48072-2011
(248) 541-2894
http://habitant.org
D. Spencer Hines
--
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
"He'll say, You're a woman. Yes. You live in California. Yes. You
have a good job. Yes. You enjoy life. Yes. So why did you steal the
money? And you've been nodding along, and suddenly you're flustered,
you're off balance --- and he's got a reaction he can use." [N. B. On
Television --- With reference to a Mike Wallace-like character. ---
DSH.] Michael Crichton, "Airframe" (1996); Alfred A. Knopf, New York,
p. 282.
D._Spencer_Hines_TD [at] aya.ballast.yale.edu
Jettison ballast before testing rig in light airs.
All original material contained herein is copyright and property of the
author. It may be quoted only in discussions on this forum and with an
attribution to the author, unless permission is otherwise expressly
given, in writing.
"John P. DuLong" <dul...@habitant.org> wrote in message
news:jpdD4.3312$h01....@news1.rdc1.mi.home.com...
Kelly Petit
KHF...@aol.com
In a message dated 3/25/2000 2:51:27 PM, raf...@amu.edu.pl writes:
<< the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle (the translation available on-line) says
there came three sons of king Svein but does not mention those of
king Harold - would that be a translator's mistake? Should ASC be
read as refering to three sons of king Harold? >>
This should be easily checked. Today is Sunday and the libraries are closed.
Does anyone have a copy at home?
- Ken
I Wallace
"the wife of Gospatrick I of Northumbria is more than doubtful as
another daughter
of king Harold..."
I agree. Is there in fact any evidence at all that she was a
daughter of King Harold ?
Ian Wallace (in Bexleyheath, Kent).
Rafal T. Prinke
"John P. DuLong" <dul...@habitant.org> wrote:
> I believe the following articles discuss Harold's children, they are
> somewhat dated now, but I recall at least one of them mentions Gyda:
>
> Evans, Charles F. H. "Descendants of King Harold." _The
> Genealogists'Magazine_ 6 (December 1933): 348.
>
> Moriarty, George Andrews. "Descent from Harold Godwinson." _The American
> Genealogists_ 33 (July 1957): 188.
>
> Rubincam, Milton. "The Family of Harold II, Last Saxon King of England."
> _The American Genealogists_ 33 (April 1957): 87-94.
Thanks a lot. If anyone has easy access to any or all of these, I would
be grateful for information if anything on Harold's sons (especially
Magnus) beyond what I summarized recently is stated there.
Best regards,
Rafal
