Bastard Children of King John
Apsg...@aol.com
also proposed another possibility, Lucy. Where do you place her?
From: <A HREF="http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=author:jparsons%40chass.utoronto.ca+">John Carmi Parsons</A> (<A HREF="mailto:jparsons%40chass.utoronto.ca">jpar...@chass.utoronto.ca</A>)
Subject: More Angevin Bastards
This is the only article in this thread
View: <A HREF="http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=Pine.SGI.3.95.980907185600.8386A-100000%40chass.utoronto.ca&output=gplain">Original Format</A>
Newsgroups: <A HREF="http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&group=soc.genealogy.medieval">soc.genealogy.medieval</A>
Date: 1998/09/07
(1) Looking over my notes from Eyton's _Court, Household and Itinerary of
Henry II_, pp. 85 note, 319: Eyton also credits Geoffrey V of Anjou with
a natural daughter Hadewide/Hawise, wife of Raoul, "prince" de Deols d.
1177, and mother of Dionise de Deols d. 1221, wife of Baldwin de Reviers
earl of Devon d.s.p. 1188. My Deols notes are not immediately to hand,
but I'll try to track them down and see if there's anything to confirm or
refute Eyton's statement. My recollection, however, is that my account of
the Deols lineage is from a fairly old and perhaps not too reliable work.
(2) Given-Wilson/Curteis omit at least two and possibly three of King
John's natural children:
i) Maud, abbess of Barking; royal assent to her election 5 Aug. 1247, and
licence to elect her successor 6 Feb. 1252 (VCH Essex, ii, pp. 120 and
notes); Dugdale, _Monasticon Anglicanum_ (Record Commn edition), i, pp.
437, 441).
ii) Bartholomew, a Dominican friar; had a dispensation for illegitimacy so
he could minister to Christian souls in the orders of priesthood to which
he was already ordained, and to be promoted to the episcopate, Jan. 1252;
became papal chaplain, May 1253; permission to converse while at table
with others of his congregation or with Franciscans, Aug. 1254 (Bliss,
_Calendar of Entries in the Papal Registers Relating to England, Scotland
and Wales_, i, pp. 281, 286, 305).
iii) Lucia, d. 18 Jan. 1234. She is known only as a _nepta_ of William
Longespee, earl of Salisbury, natural son of Henry II. She is, however,
so designated at an early date at which she could not possibly have been
his granddaughter (one of the two possible interpretations of the Latin
_nepta_), so she must have been a niece. _Complete Peerage_, i, p. 126
note "b" realizes that this could have several possible meanings: Lucia
could have been John's daughter, but she could also have been a daughter
of Henry the Young King, Richard I, Geoffrey of Brittany, of a uterine
brother or sister of William Longespee or even of William's wife (though
the evidence cited does not strongly support this last possibility). If
she were a daughter of the Young King, however, she could have been born
no later than 1184, so that she would have been about 34 at her first
marriage--a rather advanced age. Likewise if she was a daughter of Geoffrey
of Brittany, she could have been born no later than 1187 and would have been
around 31. If a daughter of Richard I, born no later than 1190 and 28 at her
first marriage. (None of this is necessarily impossible, of course, but it
*is* very unlikely.) Since the true identity of William Longespee's mother
is contested--except that she was NOT Rosamund Clifford--we can't say
anything
authoritatively about his uterine sublings (if any) or their issue. And as
noted, the evidence _CP_ cites is not very conclusive that Lucia was a niece
of Longespee's wife. So we're left with the greater possibilities that she
was either John's daughter or a uterine niece of William Longespee's mother.
Lucia married, first, in 1218 Robert de Berkeley as his second
wife; he d.s.p. by her, 1220. She m. second Hugh de Gournay or Gurnay d.
1238 by whom she had one daughter, Juliana, m. William Bardolf (d. before
1294), ancestors of the lord Bardolf. (In addition to _CP_ as already
cited, s.vv. Gournay, Berkeley, and Bardolf.)
John Parsons
The...@aol.com
Hello Paul,
Many thanks for bringing the issue of Lucy, 'nepta' of William Longespee,
into the fray. And also, belated thanks for John Carmi Parsons for having
originally introduced the information concerning her, and her marriages.
As to Lucy's relationship to William Longespee:
1. We now know of the uterine siblings of William
Longespee: the issue of the Countess Ida by Roger
le Bigod, Earl of Norfolk (d. bef 2 Aug 1221). What
I have concerning this family, including those
nephews and nieces of William Longespee identified
thus far, is given below.
There are several possibilities now known, IF the
term 'nepta' is to be strictly taken as meaning
'niece'.
2. There is the strong possibility that 'nepta' means
[near] 'kinswoman' in this context: if so, then all
bets are off, so to speak. I do not see a good
candidate in the family of le Bigod.
A conjectural identification that would fit the
looser definition of 'kinswoman', and would work if
in fact the Countess Ida was born Ida de Tony, is
given below:
Ralph de = Margaret Richard = Lucie de
Tony I de Beaumont v'comte I L'Aigle
d. 1162 I d. 1184 de Beaumont I
I d. 1199 I
. . . . I___________________ I
. I I
HENRY ~ Ida = Roger le Roger de = Constance
II I I Bigod Tony I de Beaumont
. I_______ I
I I ___________I__________
. I I I I I I
William [Bigod Ralph I Richard I LUCY
Longespee siblings] I I
Roger Margaret
This would fit in terms of relationship, chronology
and onomastics. Ralph de Tony, show above as brother
of the conjectured Lucy, was born about 1190 (CP);
we could readily presume Lucy being born in a range
between say 1190 and 1208 (when Roger de Tony died).
Given that Juliana Bardolf, daughter of Lucy and
Hugh de Gournay, was probably born say 1225-1235,
with her son Hugh (by William Bardolf) being born
in 1259 acc. to CP; and that Lucy was first married
to Robert de Berkeley in 1218, we might safely guess
that Lucy was born between 1200 and 1206.
The above (and the following Bigod information) is offered to further the
effort in identifying Lucy's relationship, to William Longespee as well as
any others. Any comment, criticism or contrary suggestions are of course
welcome.
Good luck, and good hunting.
John *
__________________________
FAMILY OF ROGER LE BIGOD AND 'THE COUNTESS IDA'
1 Roger le Bigod[1]
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 2 Aug 1221[2],[3]
Occ: Earl of Norfolk
Father: Hugh le Bigod (-<1176)
Mother: Juliane de Vere (-<1183)
2nd Earl of Norfolk
Steward of England; Surety of the Magna Carta [2]
Made gift of land at East Bergholt, Suffolk to Dodnash Priory.
Re: this gift, and the identification of the parentage of
'Countess Ida', mother of William Longespee, Douglas Richardson
wrote:
' It is odd that Roger Bigod would have land in this place and
also that he would donate it to a Tony-related religious house,
unless his wife Ida were a member of this family.'[4]
See also contributions by Paul Reed[5] and others at SGM.
Spouse: Ida (de Tosny ?)
Children: Hugh (-<1224)
William
Roger
John
Ralph (->1214)
Mary
Margaret
Ida
1.1 Hugh le Bigod
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 18 Feb 1224[2]
Occ: Earl of Norfolk
3rd Earl of Norfolk; Surety of the Magna Carta[2]
1st husband of Maud le Marshal[3]
Spouse: Maud le Marshal
Death: 27 Mar 1248[2]
Father: William Marshal (~1146-1219)
Mother: Isabel de Clare (-1220)
Marr: 1207
Children: Isabel
Roger (-1270)
Hugh (-1266)
Ralph
1.1.1a Isabel le Bigod*
----------------------------------------
she m. lstly Gilbert de Lacy
2ndly Sir John fitz Geoffrey
Spouse: Gilbert de Lacy
Death: bef 25 Dec 1230, d.v.p.[2]
Father: Walter de Lacy (-<1240)
Mother: Margaret de Braose (->1254)
Children: Margaret (-1256)
Maud (-1304)
Walter (-<1241)
Other Spouses Sir John FitzGeoffrey
1.1.1b Isabel le Bigod* (See above)
----------------------------------------
Spouse: Sir John FitzGeoffrey
Death: 23 Nov 1258[2]
Father: Geoffrey FitzPiers (-1213)
Mother: Aveline de Clare (-<1225)
Marr: aft 1229
Children: Maud (-1301)
Aveline (-ca1274)
Isabel
Joan (-1303)
Richard (-<1297)
Other Spouses Gilbert de Lacy
1.1.2 Roger le Bigod
----------------------------------------
Death: 4 Jul 1270, d.s.p.[3]
Occ: Earl of Norfolk
4th Earl of Norfolk
1.1.3 Hugh le Bigod
----------------------------------------
Death: 1266[3]
Occ: Chief Justiciar of England
heir (in his issue) of his brother Roger, Earl of Norfolk
Spouse: Joan de Stuteville
Death: 1276[6]
Father: Nicholas de Stuteville (-<1233)
Mother: Devorguilla of Galloway
Marr: 1244
Children: Roger (-<1306)
1.1.4 Ralph le Bigod
----------------------------------------
1.2 William le Bigod
----------------------------------------
identified in CP Vol. IX (Norfolk)[3]
also identified as a benefactor to the Church of St. Cuthbert,
Durham (Liber Vitae, vol. 13 p. 107 cited by Rosie Bevan)[7]
1.3 Roger le Bigod
----------------------------------------
identified in CP Vol. IX (Norfolk)[3]
also identified as a benefactor to the Church of St. Cuthbert,
Durham (Liber Vitae, vol. 13 p. 107 cited by Rosie Bevan)[7]
1.4 John le Bigod
----------------------------------------
identified in CP Vol. IX (Norfolk)[3]
also identified as a benefactor to the Church of St. Cuthbert,
Durham (Liber Vitae, vol. 13 p. 107 cited by Rosie Bevan)[7]
1.5 Ralph le Bigod
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 27 Jul 1214, Battle of Bouvines (Captured)[8]
identified as a benefactor to the Church of St. Cuthbert,
Durham (Liber Vitae, vol. 13 p. 107 cited by Rosie Bevan)[7]
fought at the Battle of Bouvines, 27 Jul 1214 and captured together
with William Longespee, Earl of Salisbury[8]
identified by Ray Phair as the 'brother' [actually half-brother] of
William Longespee, earl of Salisbury, from the French account of
the prisoners taken at Bouvines, 1214. This provides the final
proof the his mother Ida, countess of Norfolk, was also
the mother of William Longespee by King Henry II.[8]
1.6 Mary le Bigod[9]
----------------------------------------
identified as a benefactor to the Church of St. Cuthbert,
Durham (Liber Vitae, vol. 13 p. 107 cited by Rosie Bevan)[7]
Spouse: Ranulf Fitz Robert[9]
Death: bef 7 Dec 1252[2]
Father: Robert Fitz Ralph (-<1206)
Mother: Hawise de Glanville (-?1194)
Children: Ralph (-~1270)
1.6.1a Ralph Fitz Randolf*
----------------------------------------
Death: abt 1270[9]
of Middleham, co. York
also held Spennithorne, co. York (inheritance of his son by
Bertrama) [2]
Spouse: Anastasia de Percy
Death: aft 1271[3]
Father: William de Percy (ca1193-1245)
Mother: Joan de Briwere (-<1233)
Children: Joan (-ca1310)
Mary (-<1320)
Other Spouses Bertrama
1.6.1b Ralph Fitz Randolf* (See above)
----------------------------------------
Spouse: Bertrama[2]
Children: Ralph (-<1316)
Other Spouses Anastasia de Percy
1.7 Margaret le Bigod[2]
----------------------------------------
had the manor of Little Bradley as her maritagium:
Roger le Bigod
'had also a Daughter called Margery, Wife of William de
Hastings (son of William) and had by the gift of her Father,
the Mannor of Little Bradley in Frank-Marriage.' Dugdale, p.
133[10]
'Margared', identified as a benefactor (together with her parents and
siblings) to the Church of St. Cuthbert, Durham (Liber Vitae,
vol. 13 p. 107 cited by Rosie Bevan)[7]
Spouse: William de Hastings
Death: bef 28 Jan 1226[11]
Father: William de Hastings (-<1183)
Mother: Maud de Banastre (-<1222)
Children: Sir Henry (-<1250)
Ida (-<1288)
1.7.1 Sir Henry de Hastings[12],[13]
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 9 Aug 1250[3]
knight, of Ashill, co. Norfolk [3]
Spouse: Ada of Huntingdon[12],[13]
Death: aft 2 Nov 1241[3]
Father: David of Scotland (-1219)
Mother: Maud of Chester (-ca1233)
Marr: bef 7 Jun 1237[3]
Children: Henry (-<1268)
Margery
Hilaire
1.7.2a Ida de Hastings*
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 2 Mar 1288[3]
Burial: church of the Grey Friars, London[3]
she m. 1stly Stephen de Segrave (his 2nd wife),
2ndly Hugh Peche
she m. 2ndly Hugh Peche, without licence,
' ..for which offence she was for a time confined
in the Tower of London (Close Rolls, 1242-7,
p. 501). ' CP (Segrave), vol. XI, p. 601n[3]
Spouse: Hugh Peche[3]
Other Spouses Stephen de Segrave
1.7.2b Ida de Hastings* (See above)
----------------------------------------
Spouse: Stephen de Segrave
Death: 1241, Leicester Abbey (d. a monk)[3],[14]
Father: Gilbert de Segrave (-<1202)
Other Spouses Hugh Peche
1.8 Ida le Bigod
----------------------------------------
identified as a benefactor (together with her parents and siblings)
to the Church of St. Cuthbert, Durham (Liber Vitae, vol. 13 p. 107
cited by Rosie Bevan)[7]
1. Stewart Baldwin, "Oldest Female Line?," Nov 20, 1996,
GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com.
2. "The Magna Carta Sureties, 1215," Frederick L. Weis, Th. D.,
Gen Pub Co., Baltimore, MD, 5th ed., 1997 (W. L. Sheppard Jr &
David Faris).
3. "The Complete Peerage," G. E. Cokayne, 1910 -
The Complete Peerage of England Scotland Ireland Great Britain
and the United Kingdom.
4. Douglas Richardson, "Countess Ida Bigod - A Search for Answers,"
April 6, 2002, GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com additional
contributions by Paul Reed, Todd Farmeries and others.
5. Paul C. Reed, FASG, "Re: Countess Ida Identification," Sept 20,
2000, GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com, additional contributions and
observations.
6. Ed Mann, "Re: Baldwin Wake," July 14, 1998, paper copy: library of
John P. Ravilious, cites Ancestral Roots, 7th ed.
7. Rosie Bevan, "Liber Vitae and the family of Roger and Ida Bigod,"
July 31, 2002, paper copy: library of John P. Ravilious, citations
from Rosie Bevan : rbe...@paradise.net.nz, Liber Vitae Ecclesiae
Dunelmensis, Vol. 13: Nec Non Obituaria Duo Ejusdem Ecclesiae,
ed. J. Stevenson (1841), Vol. 136: A Collotype Facsimile of the
Original Manuscript, ed. A. H. Thomson (1926), followup post by
Rosie, 'Re: Liber Vitae...' Aug 5, 2002, notes
" Duncan' fil' ei' " correction, " Margareta soror ei' " addition.
8. Ray Phair, "Countess Ida, Bigod, Longespee," July 3, 2002,
GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com citing Les registres de Philippe
Augustus, ed. J.W.Baldwin, 1992, miscellanea no. 13., This
reference to Ralph Bigod proves Ida de Tosny was mother of
William Longespee.
9. "Records of the Anglo-Norman House of Glanville from A.D. 1050 to
1880," Wm. Urmston S. Glanville-Richards, Esq., Mitchell & Hughes,
London, 1882, from website: cbr.nc.us.mensa.org/homepages/jglanville
10. "The Baronage of England," William Dugdale, Norroy King of Arms,
Tho. Newcomb [reprint Georg Verlag, New York], London, 1675
[reprint New York, 1977].
11. "Antiquities of Shropshire," The Rev. R. W. Eyton, London:
John Russell Smith, 1855, Vol. 5 - p. 242 (Ludlow), pp. 132
(Banaster) and 133-142 (Barony of Hastings), Vol. 6 - pp. 350-359
(Meole Brace and de Bracy).
12. "The Scots Peerage," Sir James Balfour Paul, ed., 1904-1914 (9 vols)
13. "The Visitation of Yorkshire," Harleian Soc., William Flower,
Esquire, Norroy King of Arms, Harleian Series, Vol. 16, Mitchell
and Hughes, Printers, London, 1881.
14. "Old Halls of Derbyshire,"
www.usigs.org/library/books/uk/dby/DbyOldHallsTilly1892/
extracted 14 November 2001.
* John P. Ravilious
Douglas Richardson
> John Carmi Parsons, back in 1998, had put forward Bartholomew and Maud, and
> also proposed another possibility, Lucy. Where do you place her?
>
> From: <A HREF="http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=author:jparsons%40chass.utoronto.ca+">John Carmi Parsons</A> (<A HREF="mailto:jparsons%40chass.utoronto.ca">jpar...@chass.utoronto.ca</A>)
Dear Paul ~
Where do I place Lucy? I don't. The term "niece" in this period
could mean niece, granddaughter, OR near kinswoman. As such, the term
is much too broad for anything to be made of Lucy's connection to
William Longespee. More information is needed. I suspect Mr. Parsons
probably wasn't aware of the broader usage of the Latin word for niece
when he made his post.
For an example of the Latin word for niece used to mean "kinswoman,"
see my recent post on Isabel de Meulan, wife of Maurice de Craon,
which Isabel was called "niece" of King Henry II in the Pipe Rolls.
Isabel and King Henry II were closely related but she was not his
niece. It takes an enormous amount of time in the records of this
period before finer points such as the broader meaning of niece come
to light. I learn something new all the time.
As for Mr. Parsons' comments regarding Geoffrey Plantagenet's alleged
illegitimate daughter, Hawise, wife of Raoul de Deols, I posted a
correction regarding his statement last week and showed that Hawise
was mythical. I trust you saw my post.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
E-mail: royala...@msn.com
David Paul Meyer
VCH Yorks I:258, Spennithorne and VCH Yorks I:254, Middleham makes a very convincing case that the person whom you call Ralph Fitz Randolf (1.6.1a and 1.6.1b below) is actually two different persons, in fact brothers; Ranulf fitz Ranulf, Lord of Spennithorne and Ralph fitz Ranulf, Lord of Middleham.
Ranulf fitz Ranulf, d. between 1286 and 1294, Lord of Spennithorne, married Bertrama and they were the parents of Ralph fitz Ranulf, d. bef. 1316, the ancestor of the FitzRandall family of Spennithorne and, later, the FitzRandolph family of Kirkey-in-Ashfield, Notts.
Ralph fitz Ranulf, dspm. 1270, Lord of Middleham, was the father of co-heirs, Mary, d. 1320, Lady of Middleham, wife of Robert de Neville, d. bef 1286, Joan, wife of Robert de Tateshall, and Anastasia wife of John Hansard. I have seen their mother given as Anastasia de Percy before and other than the fact that one of the sisters was named Anastasia, I have not seen any real evidence that this is the case.
I do see you have used CP as your source for the death of Anastasia de Percy. Does CP also confirm her marriage?
I would also appreciate it if you or some other kind person could tell me where I would look in CP for these Ranulfs, Ralphs, Roberts, and Ribalds. I know they are not found under fitz. :-)
Hope this was of interest.
Thank you!
Yours truly,
David
mark harry
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now
Stewart, Peter
If this is seriously meant to convince anyone that Douglas Richardson has
spent more time in medieval records, and knows more about the language of
them, than John Carmi Parsons, then the former has apparently sunk into a
level of buffoonery deeper even than his usual plane.
If he keeps going at this rate Douglas Richardson will soon be rewriting
Niermeyer's lexicon for our (neon) enlightenment.
Peter Stewart
Douglas Richardson
>
> If this is seriously meant to convince anyone that Douglas Richardson has
> spent more time in medieval records, and knows more about the language of
> them, than John Carmi Parsons, then the former has apparently sunk into a
> level of buffoonery deeper even than his usual plane.
>
> If he keeps going at this rate Douglas Richardson will soon be rewriting
> Niermeyer's lexicon for our (neon) enlightenment.
>
> Peter Stewart
Dear "Peter" (or is it Spencer? - I can't tell)
You've used the word "buffoonery" once again to viciously attack a
member of the newsgroup. Before it was Mr. Reed and Mr. Thompson, now
it is me. The newsgroup is the place for friendship and collegiality,
not petty bickering. If you have something of value and intelligence
to post on the matter of the bastards of King John, please do so.
Otherwise, please refrain from posting "silage" (to quote your own
vocabulary).
By the way, where did you say you lived, "Peter"? Is there a real
person behind the poseur? I can't tell. The questions are simple -
the answers are revealing.
Respectfully yours, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
E-mail: royala...@msn.com
- - - - - - - - - -
Former post directed to "Peter Stewart" by Douglas Richardson taken
from archives dated 10-28-2002. How quickly "Peter Stewart" forgets.
>From: Douglas Richardson (royala...@msn.com)
>Subject: Re: The identity of Iseult, wife of Walter de Balun and Hugh
de >Audley
>View: Complete Thread (10 articles)
>Original Format
>Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
>Date: 2002-10-28 21:17:15 PST
>Dear "Peter"
>
>You said your name didn't appear in quotes. I merely corrected your
>statement. I also corrected your statement about Mr. Round. I know
>how much you hate to be wrong. No need to take it personally,
though.
>
>As for "adolescent buffoonery," you seem to have the corner on the
>market for that around here. Incidentally, I notice that Mr. Hines
>enjoys using the word, buffoonery, like you do. I've provided some
>samples below. Per chance, did you and Mr. Hines have the same
>grammar teacher? Say it ain't so.
>
>The last time Mr. Hines used the word, he called Mr. Thompson a
>"partner in buffoonery" with Mr. Reed. If so, I consider myself in
>good company. I have a great deal of respect for Mr. Thompson and
Mr.
>Reed. I wished I could say the same for you "Peter." If you
>displayed some manners along with your considerable intelligence, it
>would be quite helpful.
>
>I suggest we return to our discussion about Iseult de Mortimer. If
>you wish to discuss "silage," perhaps you can find another forum in
>which to do so.
>
>Respectfully yours, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
>E-mail: royala...@msn.com
>Pogue Reed's Latest Hissy Fit
>... FASG election -- along with his partner in buffoonery, Neil
>Thompson -- and he has
>had ... some sweet revenge, with respect to Hines. Currently, he is
?throwing a ...
>soc.genealogy.medieval - Aug. 26, 2001 by D. Spencer Hines - View
>Thread (15 articles)
>Re: De El Escorial versus Del Escorial - Closure
>... and perhaps coordinated, his confederate in buffoonery, stupidity
>and unmitigated
>arrogance, _John ... point zero, indeed. -- D. Spencer Hines Lux et
>Veritas et ...
>soc.genealogy.medieval - Sep. 8, 1999 by D. Spencer Hines - View
>Thread (19 articles)
>Re: Who Cares When It Ended? (was Re: Third Millennium [Was ...
>... and buffoonery only to switch from his left foot to his right ---
>firmly planted
>in his oral orifice. Remarkable and Fun To Watch. -- D. Spencer Hines
>Lux et ...
>alt.english.usage - Nov. 30, 1999 by D. Spencer Hines - View Thread
>(70 articles)
>Re: Hash
>... _Spam Hash_ seems to have set a record with his buffoonery.
Better
>luck next time
>at bat. -- D. Spencer Hines Lux et Veritas et Libertas "There're two
>kinds of ...
>alt.english.usage - Nov. 18, 1999 by D. Spencer Hines - View Thread
>(35 articles)
Cristopher Nash
>John Carmi Parsons, back in 1998, had put forward Bartholomew and Maud, and
>also proposed another possibility, Lucy. Where do you place her?
[SNIP]
I wonder whether John's proposal has been reconciled/correlated with
the suggestion that Hugh de Gournay (d. 1238-9) m. Matilda/Maud who
married Roger de Clifford of Bridge Sollers, Herefordshire, as her
second husband (per Henry Sutliffe to Gen-Med 11 Sep 02, subject: Re:
Wife of Hugh II de Gournay) ?
I do see that on the same date John Ravilious gave Maud but had
Juliana as the daughter of a Lucy. A problem can be that while John
gives as his source [note 2] "The Early History of Mapledurham,"
Alfred Hands Cooke (per <orig. cite by Timothy Powys-Lybbe>), my copy
of the Cooke says that Hugh m. "Matilda ----, who survived him",
mentions no wife Lucy, and implies that Julia[na] is Matilda's
daughter [187].
This doesn't preclude Lucy's being the mother, by an earlier
marriage, of Juliana (of whom, as Hugh's daughter and heiress,
following Hugh's death in 22 Henry III [ca. 1239], William de
Cantiloupe 'junior' gave custody, speaking of Matilda as then bearing
a posthumous child by Hugh). (This child apparently didn't
survive.) But to complicate things (or simplify them?), Rosie Bevan
had written 20 May 2001 --
>'Speaking of Hugh V, son of Hugh IV above: "This Hugh seems to have
>been married three times; to Juliana daughter of Aubrey de
>Dammartin; to Lucy, widow of Robert de Berkeley, who died in
>1234.....; and to Matilda of unknown parentage....."' source: G.
>Herbert Fowler, Transatus de Dunstaple et de Hocton, Publications of
>the Beds. Hist. Rec. Soc., XIX (1937), p. 86 posted to GenMed
>11/22/99 by Mardi Carter.
This would leave time for Lucy to be widowed in 1234, marry Hugh, and
have child Juliana before dying, leaving Hugh to marry Matilda in
time to conceive (though not have) a child -- before he dies 1239. I
see no chronol. problem with Juliana's birth between say 1235 and say
1237, since her son Hugh Bardolf is b. 1259. Are we ok with this
without further inquiry? I.e. we simply leave aside Cooke's
testimony as - as often before - simply not the evidence we hoped it
might be? Maybe Mardi is around with more detail from Fowler?
John (Carmi Parsons') source -- _Complete Peerage_, i, p. 126 note
"b", which I don't have at hand -- may well resolve the question,
though I've the sneaking suspicion it may not address it.
Cris
--
Chris Phillips
Cristopher Nash wrote:
> John (Carmi Parsons') source -- _Complete Peerage_, i, p. 126 note
> "b", which I don't have at hand -- may well resolve the question,
> though I've the sneaking suspicion it may not address it.
It's actually _ii_ p. 126 note b (Berkeley article), and says this:
"On the Fine Roll, 6 Hen. III, m. 5 [3 Apr. 1222] mention is made of "W.
Comitis Sarr' avunculi domini Regis et Lucie de Berkel' neptis sue. " It is
difficult to suggest any parentage for this niece [for she could not have
been his granddaughter] of Earl William Longespee. She might have been his
wife's niece, and, possibly, da. of Sir Thomas Malesmains. If she had been
an illegit. da. of King John, she would probably have been described as
"soror Regis." (ex. inform. G. W. Watson.) V.G."
Reading the suggestion that this Lucy, with a (possible) daughter Juliana,
might have been a child of one of William Longespee's uterine siblings, I
couldn't help thinking that we _now_ know these siblings had a paternal
grandmother named Juliana. Possibly a little too distant to be helpful,
though.
Chris Phillips
Cristopher Nash
>It's actually _ii_ p. 126 note b (Berkeley article), and says this:
>
>"On the Fine Roll, 6 Hen. III, m. 5 [3 Apr. 1222] mention is made of "W.
>Comitis Sarr' avunculi domini Regis et Lucie de Berkel' neptis sue. " It is
>difficult to suggest any parentage for this niece [for she could not have
>been his granddaughter] of Earl William Longespee. She might have been his
>wife's niece, and, possibly, da. of Sir Thomas Malesmains.
Thanks, Chris, and I agree.
>If she had been an illegit. da. of King John, she would probably
>have been described as "soror Regis." (ex. inform. G. W. Watson.)
>V.G."
>
>Reading the suggestion that this Lucy, with a (possible) daughter Juliana,
>might have been a child of one of William Longespee's uterine siblings, I
>couldn't help thinking that we _now_ know these siblings had a paternal
>grandmother named Juliana.
Yes, I noticed that. And also thought this --
>Possibly a little too distant to be helpful,though.
Cris
--
The...@aol.com
Dear Cris, Chris, et al.,
There are a number of questions that have now come together concerning
issues unresolved, or resolved (but not widely communicated, or accepted)
concerning the de Gournay family and their relations. I do plan to look
more closely at the 'Lucy Vs. Matilda' question as to the wives of Hugh de
Gournay (d. 1238; aka Hugh 'VI').
Cris, one issue I think that has been resolved is that related to
Rosie's post of 20 May 2001 (following on Mardi's post of 22 Nov 1999)
which you introduced into your post today. Taken from an article by G.
Herbert Fowler, this indicated that Hugh 'V' de Gournay married (1) Juliana
de Dammartin, (2) Lucy, the widow de Berkeley, 'who died in 1234', and (3)
Matilda the unknown. The foregoing is incompatible with the chronology, as
Hugh 'V' de Gournay died in either 1214 [1], 1221 [2], or some time in
between. Dugdale wrote that Hugh 'V' died in 1221,
' ... 'for then did the King direct his Precept to William de Cantilupe,
to restore unto Hugh his Son (Girard being dead, as it seems) all the Lands
of his Inheritance, then in his custody.' [2]
Cooke isn't too far off from Dugdale, as he wrote that Hugh 'VI' had
restoration of his father's lands ca. May 1322 [1].
Primary problem would be, re: Fowler, that Hugh 'V' could not have
survived Lucy (who d. 18 Jan 1234/5 acc. to CP) and married Matilda, who
was the widow. Lucy and Matilda were the wives of Hugh 'VI', as otherwise
would defy the laws of nature - at least for those not thoroughly convinced
re: human cloning and/or necrophilia.
While the other issues are being pondered and pursued, I am including
below a 7 generation report as to Hugh de Gournay, the Domesday tenant (aka
Hugh 'III') and his descendants. Comment, criticism and additional
documentation certainly welcome.
Cheers,
John *
NOTES
[1] A. H. Cooke, The Early History of Mapledurham
[2] Dugdale, The Baronage of England: De Gurnay
_________________________
HUGH 'III' DE GOURNAI and his Descendants
1 Hugh de Gournay[1]
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 1092[2]
seigneur de Gournai-en-Brai[2]
a 'Domesday landholder' according to Keats-Rohan (pp. 263-4)[3]
'known to have had tenure of land both in France and England, held
manors in Essex at the Survey of 1086', Domesday Book[2]
referred to as Hugh III
Spouse: Basilia de Flaitel[2]
Father: Gerard de Flaitel
Children: Gerard (-ca1104)
1.1 Gerard de Gournay[4]
----------------------------------------
Death: ca 1104[2]
Occ: seigneur de Gournay-en-Bray
seigneur de Gournay[4]
held manor of Castre [Caister], Norfolk
held to have participated in the First Crusade, under Robert of
Normandy[2]
Spouse: Edith de Warenne
Father: William de Warenne (-1088), (lst) Earl of Surrey
Mother: Gundreda of Ghent (-1085)
Children: Hugh IV (ca1094-ca1180)
Gundreda
1.1.1a Hugh IV de Gournay*
----------------------------------------
Birth: ca 1094[1]
Death: ca 1180[2]
Occ: seigneur de Gournay
of Mapledurham, Oxon. and Caister, Norfolk;
founded a chapter of the nuns of Fontevrault at Vallee de la Bataille,
after 1130[2]
rebelled against Henry I, pardoned ca. 1119
'acted as one of Henry's lieutenants in an effort to keep the peace
in Normandy after the death of the king.', 1135[5]
Spouse: Melisende de Coucy[1], 1st wife
Father: Thomas de Coucy (-ca1131), lord of Coucy and Marle
Mother: Melisende de Crecy
Marr: bef 1147, before leaving on Crusade ?
Children: Gerard (-ca1151)
Hugh V (ca1148-1214)
Other Spouses Beatrix of Vermandois, 2nd wife
1.1.1a.1 Gerard de Gournay
----------------------------------------
Death: ca 1151, d.v.p.[2]
1.1.1a.2 Hugh V de Gournay
----------------------------------------
Birth: ca 1148[1]
Death: 25 Sep 1214[2]
of Mapledurham, Oxon., and Caister, Norfolk
assessed a fine of more than L~119 1180 (Pipe Roll xxix p. 19[2])
received a grant of Wendover, Bucks. and Houghton, Beds. from King
Stephen.
Companion of Richard I on the Third Crusade; at the siege of Acre,
1190 (charter to the abbey of Bec confirmed by Richard I, 1190)
opted for England at the pacification of Normandy, 1204 and had
restoration of his lands in Norfolk and elsewhere by decree of King
John, 1206[2]
Sheriff of Bedfordshire and Buckinghamshire, 1214
resigned his lands to son Gerard, 1214[2]
Dugdale indicates he died in 1221 (6 Hen. 3),
'for then did the King direct his Precept to William de Cantilupe,
to restore unto Hugh his Son (Girard being dead, as it seems) all
the Lands of his Inheritance, then in his custody.'[6]
Cooke, p. 11:
"In England, among other manors, Hugh V now held, beside Mapledurham,
Bledlowe in Bucks, some restored manors in Norfolk (Caister, Cantley,
and lands in Aylsham), also Houghton in Beds and Waltham in Lincs,
while in 1210 we find him paying a fine of 700 marks for Wendover.'[2]
Spouse: Juliana de Dammartin[1]
Birth: ca 1165[1]
Father: Aubri II de Dammartin (-1200), count of Dammartin
Mother: Maud of Clermont (->1200)
Children: Millicent (-1260)
Gerard (->1213)
Hugh VI (-1238)
Anselm
1.1.1a.2.1a Millicent de Gournay*
----------------------------------------
Death: 1260[1]
she m. 1st Amauri de Montfort, Count of Evreux,
2ndly William de Cantelou[7]
Fine for her marriage by William de Cantelou 'senior', 2 Hen. III
(Dugdale, citing Rot. Pip. 2 H. 3)[6]
her maritagium included lands in Houghton, co. Beds. (fine in 4 Hen. 3
paid by William de Cantelou 'senior' for these lands)
re: her 2nd husband, William de Cantelou:
of Aston Cantlow, co. Warwick
steward of Henry III[2]
"he and Milicent his wife, 'formerly wife of Aumarie, Count of Evreux,'
had dower in Petersfield and Mapledurham.." (CP Vol V (Gloucester),
p. 693)[7]
Spouse: William de Cantelou[7], of Aston Cantlow, co. Warwick, 2nd husband
Death: 22 Feb 1250[7]
Birth: ? 1185
Father: William de Cantelou (?1158-1239)
Mother: Mesceline de Braci
Marr: 1217[7],[6]
Children: Juliana (->1285)
William (-1254)
Agnes
Thomas (?1218-1282)
Nicholas (-<1266)
John (->1257)
Hugh (->1260)
Other Spouses Amauri de Montfort
1.1.1a.2.1a.1 Juliana de Cantelou[7]
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 6 Aug 1285
William de Cantelou d. 1250, leaving sons and
'...Julian, the Wife of Sir Robert de Tregoz.' Dugdale, Baronage,
p. 732 [cites Ex. coll. R. Gl. S.][6]
Spouse: Robert de Tregoz, of Ewyas Harold, co. Hereford
Death: bef 24 Sep 1268[7]
Father: Robert de Tregoz (-<1215)
Mother: Sibyl de Ewyas (-<1236)
Marr: bef 1 Aug 1245[7]
Children: John (~1245-1300)
1.1.1a.2.1a.1.1 John de Tregoz
----------------------------------------
Birth: abt 1245
Death: 21 Aug 1300
Occ: Lord Tregoz[7]
of Eaton Tregoz, co. Hereford and Lydiard Tregoze and Allington, Wilts.[7]
evidently received the lordship of Lambourn Hundred, co. Berks with
his wife (held by him in 1274 - Meisel, p. 96[8]
summoned to Parliament by writ from 26 Jan 1296/97, whereby held to
be Lord Tregoz; fought at Falkirk, 1298; d.s.p.m. [7]
2nd husband of Mabel FitzWarin (IPM of Mabel Tregoz, cited by Rosie
Bevan)[9]
Spouse: Mabel FitzWarin
Death: bef 24 May 1297[7]
Father: Sir Fulk FitzWarin (-1264)
Mother: Constance de Tosny
Marr: aft 6 Apr 1263[7]
Children: Clarice (-<1300)
Sybil (1270-1334)
1.1.1a.2.1a.2 William de Cantelou
----------------------------------------
Death: 25 Sep 1254[7]
Burial: 30 Sep 1254, Studley priory, co. Warwick[7]
of Calne, co. Wilts., Houghton, co. Beds. and Aston Cantlow, co. Warwick [4]
as William de Cantelou 'the Younger', said to have journeyed on a
pilgrimage to Santiago de Compostela with Piers de Montfort, 1236
also held a moiety of Badmondisfield, Suffolk[10]
after his death, Prince Edward (the future Edward I) held the wardship
of his heirs (Edward I, p. 38)[11]
Spouse: Eve de Braose
Death: bef 28 Jul 1255[7]
Father: William de Braose (-1230), of Brecknock and Abergavenny
Mother: Eva le Marshal (-<1246)
Marr: aft 25 Jul 1238[7]
Children: Joan (-<1271)
Millicent (-<1298)
George (1252-1273)
1.1.1a.2.1a.2.1 Joan de Cantelou[12]
----------------------------------------
Death: bef Jun 1271
heiress in her issue of lordship of Abergavenny
her purparty included :
'...the Castle and Honor of Bergavenny, with the Mannor of Kilgaran
in Wales; as also the Mannor of Aston-Cantilupe in Com. War.
Berewike, Little-Merston, and Stotford, in Com. Somers. and
Badmundfield in Com. Suff.' [Dugdale, p. 733][6]
Spouse: Henry de Hastings[12]
Death: bef 5 Mar 1268[7]
Father: Sir Henry de Hastings (-<1250)
Mother: Ada of Huntingdon (->1241)
Children: Sir John Hastings (1262-1312), 1st Lord Hastings
1.1.1a.2.1a.2.2 Millicent de Cantelou
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 7 Jan 1298[7]
coheiress of her brother, George de Cantelou[7]
her inheritance included Eyton, Houton, Beds.; Harringworth, Beruby,
Rowell, and Bolewyck, Northants.; Totnes, Devon; Moles Bracy, co.
Salop.[7]; Bridgwater, Somerset (moiety of 2/3 of the borough and
manor)[13]
she also claimed the right to a market at Bridgwater, Somerset in
1280[14] (the manor of Bridgwater was part of her purparty of the
inheritance from her brother)[6]
Spouse: Eudes la Zouche
Death: bef 25 Jun 1279[15]
Father: Sir Roger la Zouche (-<1238)
Mother: Margaret Biset
Marr: bef 13 Dec 1273[15]
Children: Eva (-1314)
Sir William (<1276-1351)
Elizabeth (-<1308)
Ellen
1.1.1a.2.1a.2.3 George de Cantelou
----------------------------------------
Birth: 29 Mar 1252, Abergavenny[7]
Death: 18 Oct 1273, d.s.p.[7]
of Calne, co. Wilts., Houghton, co. Beds. and Aston Cantlow, co. Warwick
Lord of Abergavenny
succeeded in Abergavenny by his nephew John de Hastings[7]
Spouse: Margaret de Lacy
Father: Edmund de Lacy (-1258)
Mother: Alice de Saluzzo
Marr: 1 Sep 1254, date of contract, ratified by Henry III[7]
1.1.1a.2.1a.3 Agnes de Cantelou
----------------------------------------
parentage as documented in the Boxgrove Stemma Funditoris (cf. CP
Vol XI [St. John], p. 323 and 323n[7])
Spouse: Robert de Saint John
Death: bef 26 Mar 1266[7]
Father: William de Saint John (-1239)
Mother: Godeheut
Children: John (-<1302)
1.1.1a.2.1a.3.1 John de Saint John
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 30 Sep 1302[7]
knight, of Basing, Hants.
one of the magnates en route with Edward I in France and Spain (1286).
One of the Auditors on behalf of King Edward at the trial of the claims
to the crown of Scotland, 1292
seneschal of Aquitaine 1294; captured by French forces ca. 1296,
released in 1297[7]
Spouse: Alice Fitz Reynold[7]
Death: aft 1305[7]
Father: Reynold Fitz Piers (-1285)
Mother: Alice
Marr: bef 29 Jun 1256[7]
Children: Agnes (-1345)
John (ca1271-<1329)
1.1.1a.2.1a.4 Thomas de Cantelou
----------------------------------------
Birth: ? 1218
Death: 25 Aug 1282, Orvieto, Italy[16]
Occ: Bishop of Hereford, 1275-1282
also known as St. Thomas Cantilupe, or St. Thomas of Hereford
educated at Oxford, then Paris
Chancellor of Oxford University, 1262
supporter of the baronial cause and de Montfort before King Louis,
Amiens, 1259
Chancellor of England following Battle of Lewes, February 1265
(deprived on restoration of Henry III after Battle of Evesham, 1265)
consecrated Bishop of Hereford, 8 Sept 1275
excommunicated in 1282 (by Archbishop of Canterbury); traveled to
Rome to pleasd his own cause before Pope Martin, dying at Orvieto
his relics brought back to Hereford, the site of many miracles following
canonized by Pope John XXII, 1320[16]
1.1.1a.2.1a.5 Nicholas de Cantelou
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 24 Sep 1266[7]
lst husband of Eustache fitzRalph
Spouse: Eustache FitzHugh
Father: Ralph FitzHugh
Children: William (<1262-<1308)
1.1.1a.2.1a.5.1 William de Cantelou
----------------------------------------
Birth: bef 6 Aug 1262[7]
Death: bef 6 Aug 1308[7]
Occ: Lord Cauntelo
of Greasley, Notts. and Ilkeston, co. Derby
summoned to Parliament from 29 Dec 1299 by writs directed 'Willelmo
de Canti Lupo', held thereby to have become Lord Cauntelo[7]
1.1.1a.2.1a.6 John de Cantelou
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 24 Sep 1257[14]
of Snitterfield, co. Warwick
had a grant of a fair and market from King Henry III by charter,
24 Sept 1257[14]
ancestor of Sir Walter de Cantilupe of Snitterfield (fl. 1323)
1.1.1a.2.1a.7 Hugh de Cantelou
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 30 Sep 1260[17]
Occ: archdeacon of Gloucester
nominee of Prince Edward to succeed as Bishop of Durham in 1260
(following death of Walter Kirkham) - another elected in his place,
30 Sept 1260[17]
1.1.1a.2.1b Millicent de Gournay* (See above)
----------------------------------------
Spouse: Amauri de Montfort, count of Evreux (Earl of Gloucester, 1199)
1st husband
Death: bef Nov 1213, d.s.p.[7]
Father: Amauri de Montfort (-1191)
Mother: Mabel of Gloucester
Marr: bef 1204[7]
Other Spouses William de Cantelou (see above)
1.1.1a.2.2 Gerard de Gournay
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 1213
1.1.1a.2.3a Hugh VI de Gournay*[7]
----------------------------------------
Death: 1238[2]
Burial: Langley Abbey, Norfolk[2]
of Mapledurham, Oxon.[7] and Caister, Norfolk
evidently joined the baronial cause against King John (his lands
transferred to William de Cantelou, 1218); had restoration of
same ca. May 1222[2]
stated by Dugdale to have married 'Lucy, the Daughter of Robert de
Berkley' [Baronage, p. 430][6] - Noted in CP and elsewhere as
actually being the widow of Robert de Berkeley[7],[18]
had charters granted by King Henry III dated 19 March 1235 for
a market and fair at Cantley, Norfolk:
' (Letter Close) Tues; gr 19 Mar 1235, by K Hen III to
Hugh de Gurnay (CR, 1234–7, p. 60). To be held at the manor.
Mandate to the sh of Norfolk to proclaim the market and cause
it to be established.'[14]
Spouse: Matilda[2], 2nd wife
Other Spouses Lucy
1.1.1a.2.3b Hugh VI de Gournay* (See above)
----------------------------------------
Spouse: Lucy, 1st wife
Death: 18 Jan 1234[7]
Marr: aft 13 May 1220[7]
Children: Juliana (-<1295)
Other Spouses Matilda
1.1.1a.2.3b.1 Juliana de Gournay
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 29 Nov 1295[7]
heiress of Mapledurham, Oxon., Cantley, Norfolk & c.[7]
married 1stly Roger de Clifford[2]
identified by John Carmi Parsons as the daughter of Lucy, lst wife
of Hugh de Gournay[18]
On the death of her father Hugh de Gournay,
' William de Cantilupe gave five hundred marks Fine for the
Wardship of Julian, his Daughter and Heir, and the custody
of her Lands.' Dugdale, Baronage, p. 430 [see also p. 732,
under Cantilupe][6]
Spouse: William Bardolf
Death: 1 Dec 1289[7]
Father: William Bardolf (-<1274)
Marr: bef 1255[2]
Children: Hugh (ca1259-1304)
Roger (-<1305)
John (-?1331)
William
1.1.1a.2.3b.1.1 Hugh Bardolf
----------------------------------------
Death: Sep 1304[7]
Birth: ca 29 Sep 1259[7]
Occ: Lord Bardolf
knight, of Wormegay, Norfolk and Shelford, Notts.
his father settled the manor of Plumpton, Sussex on Hugh and his wife
Isabella on their marriage (Copinger Vol. l, p. 48)[10]
held the manor of Bures, Suffolk by the Serjeanty of preparing the
dish called 'gerout', as was the case for William Aguillon:
' per servicium ad inveniendum unum cocum ad coronamentum domini
Regis ad faciendum unum ferculum pro domino Rege, quod vocatur
Mees de Geroun, sumptibus domini Regis in una olla lutea.'
[IPM of Hugh Bardolf, as cited by Copinger, Vol. I-Bures, p. 46][10]
summoned to Parliament from 6 Feb 1298/99 to 2 Jun 1302 by writs
directed 'Hugoni Bardolf', whereby he may be held to have become
Lord Bardolf[7]
made a gift to the Friars Minor of Lynn, 14 June 1300:
' KL/C50/522 - date: 14 Jun 1300
[from Scope and Content] Grant by Hugh Bardolf, lord of
Wyrmegeye, to the Friars Minor of Lynn for the health of
his soul and the souls of his wife Isabella, his parents and
ancestors. '[19]
Spouse: Isabel Aguillon
Birth: 25 Mar 1257[7]
Death: bef 28 May 1323[7]
Father: Sir Robert Aguillon (-1285)
Mother: Joan de Ferrers (-1267)
Marr: bef 1282[7]
Children: Sir Thomas (1282-1328)
Margery
1.1.1a.2.3b.1.2 Roger Bardolf
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 1305[2]
1.1.1a.2.3b.1.3 John Bardolf
----------------------------------------
Death: ? 1331[2]
knight, of Mapledurham, Oxon.[2]
Spouse: NN
Children: John
1.1.1a.2.3b.1.4 William Bardolf
----------------------------------------
1.1.1a.2.4 Anselm de Gournay
----------------------------------------
ancestor of Gournay of Beverstone, co. Gloucs. & c.[6]
1.1.1b Hugh IV de Gournay* (See above)
----------------------------------------
Spouse: Beatrix of Vermandois
Death: aft 1143[20]
Father: Hugh 'le Maisne'' of Vermandois (ca1057-1101)
Mother: Ada (Adelaide) of Vermandois (-1120)
Other Spouses Melisende de Coucy
1.1.2 Gundreda de Gournay
----------------------------------------
2nd wife[7]
Spouse: Nigel d'Aubigny
Death: ca 26 Nov 1129[7]
Father: Roger D'Aubigny (->1083)
Mother: Amicia
Children: Roger (-1188)
1.1.2.1 Roger de Mowbray
----------------------------------------
Death: 1188, Palestine (or en route to England)[7]
fought at Battle of the Standard, 1138; supporter of King Stephen, at
Lincoln Feb 1140/41 (captured). Participant in the Second Crusade
Held 102 knights' fees in chief, in returns of 1166
Supporter of the Young King in 1173 (joined King William of Scotland in
invasion) - returned to the King's peace following surrender of Thirsk
31 July, 1174
Returned to Jerusalem 1186; fought at Battle of Hattin, 4 July 1187 -
captured by Saladin's forces, ransomed by the Templars.
Died in Palestine or en route home[7]
PRO (Brinklow), DR10/37 records a gift ca. 1150-1188:
Gift in frankalmoign from Roger [de Nolbraio to God and the Church of the
Blessed Mary of Cumbe and the Monks there serving God] of part of his
wood of Brinkalaue, that part namely --- from Maiweia to the road which
is between the said Grove --- [Brink]elaue and from Walweia which is
between that part of the Grove --- to the boundaries of Brandune; and
for this the said monks have given him 80 marks.
Witnesses: --- Walter Bricon', Hamo Bel', Hamo Lestraunge, Philip de
Muntepincun, He---, Robert de Wauarn, William Cam', Peter son of Hamo
Lestraunge, Ralph son of Richard ---, Dispenser, Ralph son of Geoffrey,
Robert the Clerk, Raynuld de Mandauill', Robert son of ---.
Seal on tag: circular, of white wax, varnished brown. A knight in armour
on horseback, broken.
Endorsed: Roger de Molbrai de parte nemoris de Brinkelaue ad custodiendum
et sartandum et ad vellem suum faciendum. [contemp][19]
see also concurrents gifts 'to the Monastery of St. Mary of Cumba of a
part of his wood of Brinchelawa' [DR 10/38] and 'Gift in frankalmoign
with warranty addressed to Richard [Peche] Bishop of Cestrie, from Roger
de Molbraio to God and the Church of St. Mary of Cumba and the monks
there serving God of that part of his wood of Brincalawa called
Burhtleia' [DR 10/39][19]
Spouse: Alice de Gant
Father: Walter de Gant (-1139), of Folkingham, co. Lincs.
Mother: Maud of Brittany
Children: Nigel (-1191)
Robert
1.1.2.1.1 Nigel de Mowbray
----------------------------------------
Death: 1191, Acre (on Third Crusade)[7]
of Montbrai, Normandy and Thirsk, and Melton Mowbray, co. Leics.[7]
Nigellus de Moubrai, frequently styled Nele de Mowbray (see CP)
participated in the rebellion of the Young King, 1173; present at
coronation of Richard I, 3 Sept 1189
Companion of Richard I on the Third Crusade (d. Acre)[7]
'Confirmation with warranty from Nigel de Molbraio to God and the Church
of St. Mary of Cumba and the Monks there serving God of all that gift in
frankalmoign which his father Roger de Mulbraio made to the aforesaid
Monks of Cumba of his wood in Brincalowa which is called Burthleia'
PRO [DR 10/40][19]
Spouse: Mabel[7]
Death: ca 1203[7]
Children: William (-<1224)
Philip
Robert
1.1.2.1.1.1 William de Mowbray
----------------------------------------
Death: bef Apr 1224[7]
of Thirsk and Kirby Malasard, and Banstead, Surrey[7]
probably companion of Richard I on the Third Crusade with his father
(witness to charter of Richard at Speyer, 20 Nov 1193); a pledge in
Germany for King Richard's ransom.
lost Montbrai and other Norman lands with the pacification of Normandy, 1204
early supporter of King John, later joined the baronial cause;
Surety of the Magna Carta
fought at Lincoln for Prince Louis, 20 May 1217 - captured, returned to
allegiance to Henry III and lands restored October 1217[7]
confirmation of prior gifts to Cumba, ca. 1191-1207,
PRO (Brinklow), DR10/42
Confirmation in frankalmoign from William de Molbraio to God and St. Mary
and the monks of Cumba of all the grants, possessions and alms which
the said monks have by the gift of Roger de Molbraio his grandfather,
and Nigel de Molbraio his father, namely as much in the arable lands as
in the uncultivated lands, and in the assarts in the enclosed wood as
in the unenclosed wood, and in the level ground and in the meadows and
pastures, in fisheries and pools, in the waters and mills, in the roads
and paths and in all other appurtenances.
Witnesses: Girard de Canvilla, Walter de Canvilla, To --- erdun, Osbert
de Clinton', Roger de Canvilla, Robert Camerarius, --- Waura, Roger de
Buschervilla, Robert do Bilneia and many others.
Seal on tag: pink varnished brown, circular, broken. A knight on horseback.
Legend: [SIGI]LLVM WIL[LELMI DE MOLBRAIO]
Endorsed: Confirmatio Willelmi de Molbrao de tenementis de Smita et de
Brinkelau[19]
Spouse: Avice[7]
Children: Nele (-1230)
Roger (<1220-ca1266)
1.1.2.1.1.1.1 Nele de Mowbray
----------------------------------------
Death: 1230[4]
1.1.2.1.1.1.2a Roger de Mowbray*
----------------------------------------
Birth: bef 20 May 1220[7]
Death: ca Nov 1266[7]
of Thirsk and Kirby Malasard
minor 2 Oct 1230 - custody of his lands and his marriage granted to Hubert
de Burgh, Earl of Kent for 500 marks (wardship transferred to John de
Lacy, Earl of Lincoln 1234); had livery of his lands 20 May 1241
appointed December 1260 with James de Audley to dictate terms of the King
for a truce with Llywelyn[7]
supporter of Henry III against de Montfort[7]
he m. lstly NN de Furnival,
2ndly Beatrice de Beauchamp[21]
Spouse: Maud de Beauchamp
Death: bef Apr 1273[7]
Father: William de Beauchamp (-1260) of Bedford
Mother: Ida Longespee (->1261)
Marr: bef 1257[21]
Children: Roger (-<1297)
Other Spouses NN de Furnival
1.1.2.1.1.1.2b Roger de Mowbray* (See above)
----------------------------------------
Spouse: NN de Furnival
Father: Thomas de Furnival (->1238)
Mother: Bertha de Ferrers (->1266)
Marr: aft 13 Apr 1238[21],[22]
Children: Joan (-<1316)
Isabel
Other Spouses Maud de Beauchamp
1.1.2.1.1.2 Philip de Mowbray
----------------------------------------
1.1.2.1.1.3 Robert de Mowbray
----------------------------------------
1.1.2.1.2 Robert de Mowbray
----------------------------------------
1. "Stevens/Southworth Medieval Database," James Allen Stevens, Rootsweb,
created 14 May 2000 [extracted 25 April 2001],
www.gendex.com/users/jast/D0026/G0000090.html
2. "The Early History of Mapledurham," Alfred Hands Cooke, M.A., Sc.D.,
Oxfordshire Record Society, Oxford: Oxfordshire Record Society, 1925,
*orig. cite by Timothy Powys-Lybbe, t...@powys.org
[t...@southfrm.demon.co.uk],
p. 11 cited by T. Powys-Lybbe (re: Hugh V de Gournay).
3. "Domesday People," Katherine S. B. Keats-Rohan, The Boydell Press,
1999, Vol. I: A Prosopography of Persons Occurring in English
Documents 1066-1166.
4. "The Magna Carta Sureties, 1215," Frederick L. Weis, Th. D., Gen Pub
Co., Baltimore, MD, 5th ed., 1997 (W. L. Sheppard Jr & David Faris).
5. "Henry I," C. Warren Hollister, New Haven: Yale University Press,
2001, [English Monarchs Series].
6. "The Baronage of England," William Dugdale, Norroy King of Arms, Tho.
Newcomb [reprint Georg Verlag, New York], London, 1675 [reprint New
York, 1977].
7. "The Complete Peerage," G. E. Cokayne, 1910 -
The Complete Peerage of England Scotland Ireland Great Britain and
the United Kingdom.
8. "Barons of the Welsh Frontier: The Corbet, Pantulf and Fitz Warin
Families, 1066-1272," Janet Meisel, Lincoln: University of Nebraska
Press.
9. Rosie Bevan, "Re: de Weyland, an Irish Connection (?) : Chipping
Sodbury, co. Glocs.," June 2, 2002, rbe...@paradise.net.nz.
10. "The Manors of Suffolk: Notes on Their History and Devolution," W. A.
Copinger, M.A., LL.D., F.S.A., London: T. F. Unwin, 1905-1911, 7 Vols.
11. "Edward I," Michael Prestwich, New Haven: Yale University Press, 1997
[in England, originally 1988 -Methuen], Yale English Monarchs series.
12. "The Visitation of Yorkshire," Harleian Soc., William Flower, Esquire,
Norroy King of Arms, Harleian Series, Vol. 16, Mitchell and Hughes,
Printers, London, 1881.
13. "Victoria County History of Somerset," 6 [North Petherton Hundred: as
to Bridgwater, de Briwere tenancy].
14. "Gazetteer of Markets and Fairs to 1516," www.histparl.ac.uk/cmh/gaz/
15. "Ancestral Roots of Certain American Colonists," Frederick L. Weis,
Genealogical Pub. Co., Baltimore, MD, 7th ed.
16. "St. Thomas of Hereford (Thomas de Cantelupe)," Edwin Burton, Robert
Appleton Co. (online edition, 1999: Kevin Knight), Vol XIV (de
Cantelupe): 1912, transcribed by Thomas M. Barrett
http://www.newadvent.org
17. "Eleanor of Provence," Margaret Howell, Oxford: Blackwell Publishers
Ltd, 1998.
18. John Carmi Parsons, "More Angevin Bastards," Sept 7, 1998,
GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
19. "Public Record Office Archives," http://www.a2a.pro.gov.uk/
Hastings: from Norfolk Record Office: Hastings Family of Gressenhall,
charters and other documents re: Hastings of Elsing, from FILE -
Charter - Grant - ref. MR 72 241 x 3, also, Norfolk Record Office:
Collecton of Manorial Documents relating to Gressenhall and Hunstanton,
(includes COLLECTION of MANORIAL DOCUMENTS relating to GRESSENHALL
and HUNSTANTON).
20. Douglas Richardson, "Re: Wife of Hugh II de Gournay," September 12,
2002, GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com, includes biography text by Douglas
Richardson for Hugh de Gournay (d. 1181).
21. Douglas Richardson, "New Evidence for Newmarch-Mowbray Marriage,"
March 27, 2002, GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com, Douglas proved the
Furnival marriage: citation from CP, provided by Betty Marsicek, Apr
4, 2002.
22. Douglas Richardson, "Mowbray," September 12, 2002, paper copy:
library of John Ravilious, text, line of descent from Ida Longespee,
daughter of William, Earl of Salisbury, and her husband William de
Beauchamp, of Bedford.
Mardi Carter
Yes Mardi is on board, but barely after a day of skiing with a bunch
of Boy Scouts.
In studying the Gournai family again I have some information to add
from Beds. Rec.Soc vol 19. This text abstracts original documentary
evidence. The author has also created two charts to illustrate, which
I will present at the end. Is this author Fowler? I don't have his
name, but my collection of conflicting confusion follows.
p. 85 note a
"In 1925 the late Dr. Farrer also dealt (Hon. and Fees, iii, 420-23)
with this family; he followed the massive work of Daniel Gurney (The
House of Gournay, 2 vols., 1848 and 1858), and some French
genealogists, in regarding my Hugh II and Hugh III as a single man,
and assigning to him as wives two ladies whom I had given to different
Hughs. Many records uphold his view, some seem to tell against it;
but it appeared best to accept it (though reluctantly) for the
pedigree drawn below, with the hope that the original charters in
France may be re-studied some day by modern methods. Many
difficulties in the story would disappear if father and son had each
married ladies of the same font-name, one of them being the Hugh son
of Hugh and Beatrice whom Will. of Jumieges records and genealogists
neglect. [But see Appendix B below.]"
(Unfortunately, I do not have Appendix B).
The author also refers to an article in Beds. Rec. Soc. of 1923 for
the history of the earlier Gournay family. I do not have access to
this volume so I am starting in the middle which is a muddle. I
hesitate to give the Hughs numbers because they change with each
rendition, but have retained those used by each author. Please accept
my apologies for missing notes, etc. Some information was collected
before I learned to look for important citations to copy before I left
the library - sometimes days away from home.
Farrer (Hon. and Fees, iii, 420-3)
He says Hugh II(IV) who is said to have died in the Holy Land (no
date) m. (1) Beatrice de Vermandois and (2) Melisende de Coucy. Many
sources follow this rendition.
Keats-Rohan (Domesday Descendants p 493)
1. Hugh II, a crusader
+Beatrice de Vermandois
2. Hugh III
+Milesent
+ Milesent (no surname).
Beds Rec Soc charts:
A. After Daniel Gurney, 1845
1. Hugh III de Gournay; Domesday tenant; monk of Bec bef. 1093
+ Basilia, da of Gerard Flaitel
2. Gerard de Gournay; d. on way to Holy Land
+ Edith, da of 1st Earl Warenne
3. Hugh IV de Gournay; brought up by Henry I; d.
1180 at great age
+ Beatrice, da. of Hugh, count of Vermandois
4. Hugh de Gournay; d. before his
father's 2nd marriage
+ Millicent, da of Thomas de Marla, Lord of
Coucy
4. Gerard de Gournay d.v.p. 1151
4. Hugh V de Gournay; d. 1214 at Acre
+ Julia de Dammartin
5. Gerard de Gourday d. before
1216
5. Milicent
5. Hugh VI de Gournay; d. 1239
+ Matilda
6. Julia de Gournay; d. 1293
+ William, Lord Bardolf
of Wormegay
B. The author's interpretation of the evidence.
1. Hugh I de Gournay; Domesday tenant; monk of Bec bef. 1093
+ Basilia, da of Gerard Flaitel
2. Gerard I de Gournay; d. on way to Holy Land
+ Edith, da of 1st Earl Warenne
3. Hugh II de Gournay; crusader; d. abt. 1099
+ Beatrice de Vermandois
4. Hugh III; 'turgidus adolescens' 1137;
forfeited Houghton and Wendover bef. 1156; d. bef. 1179
5. Hugh IV de Gournay; crusader; d.
1214
+Millicent de Coucy, da of
Thomas de Coucy and sister of Robert de Boves; m. bef 1138
6. Hugh V de Gournay; d.
1238
+Juliana de Dammartin
7. Juliana de
Gournay
+
William, Lord Bardolf
+ Lucy, widow of
Robert de Berkeley (d 1234)
+ Matilda, alive
1242/5
4. ?Gerard II; d. 1151
+ Millicent, co-founder of Claire Ruissel bef
1164
The abstracted records from Bed Rec Soc vol 19 p 85-6 on the few pages
I have give the following information:
On the death of Hugh [de Gournay] (d. 1214). Hugh de Boves paid to the
Exchequer 200 marks of his uncle's debt to the Crown and had seisin of
his chattels. Hugh de Boves was son of Robert, Millicent de Coucy's
brother. Hugh de Boves died later in 1214, drowned in a shipwreck.
An early charter [sorry I don't have the numbered notes at the end of
the article that would tell where this is located] of Hugh de Gournay,
"for the souls of his father Hugh mother Millicent and wife Juliana,
to Missenden Abbey."
As to Hugh V having 3 wives there are notes which I neglected to copy
that may give the source of information.
Note that Keats-Rohan shows both her Hugh II and III as having wives
named Milicent, but I have not interpreted this as an error.
If anyone can shed light on the discrepancies here I would be most
grateful. I do not have access to Bed Rec Soc or to the relevant
original sources.
Mardi
c...@windsong.u-net.com (Cristopher Nash) wrote in message news:<a05100301ba462a492be4@[10.0.1.2]>...
Sutliff
missing one or perhaps more probably two Hughs. I don't know whether you
accidentally omitted them or had decided they should be dropped and if the
latter, would appreciate the rationale. Keats-Rohan in DD 492-3 would place
two Hughs between Gerard and Hugh IV. I will have to dig my copy of Cooke
out again, but as I recall he also placed at least one or two Hughs between
Gerard and Hugh IV which is not reflected in your construction from his
book. As Keats-Rohan cites among other sources for this family, the
Cartulary of Missenden and various Pipe Rolls, perhaps there should be some
consideration of her placement. She has Hugh II married to Beatrice de
Vermandois and a Milesent with the former as mother of Hugh III. She also
has Hugh III married to a Milisent. It is implied but not stated that this
Milisent was mother of Hugh IV. Even if one does not accept all these Hughs,
some adjustment must me made as Beatrice de Vermandois occurred much too
early to have been married to Hugh IV as you show. Also Hugh VI was not
alive in 1322 (he died 1238) as you show in your message, I am guessing this
was a typo for 1222? I think Tim Powys-Lybbe has also posted on this in the
past. Apologies for being so confused by your presentation, but I genuinely
believe you have omitted one or two generations.
Cooke also mentions that Juliana was not the only child of Hugh VI (on p.
15, I think).
HS
<The...@aol.com> wrote in message news:c.709bc3b...@aol.com...
> Hugh de Gurnay (CR, 1234-7, p. 60). To be held at the manor.
Douglas Richardson
Below is an account of the life of Hugh de Gournay who married Lucy,
widow of Robert de Berkeley. As you can see, Hugh de Gournay had two
marriages, first to Lucy de Berkeley, and (2nd) to Maud _____. He
had his daughter and heiress, Juliane, by his 2nd marriage to Maud. I
have provided my sources.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
E-mail: royala...@msn.com
- - - - - - - - - -
GOURNAY FAMILY
1. HUGH DE GOURNAY, of Wendover, co. Buckingham, Caister and Cantley,
Norfolk, Mapledurham, co. Oxford, benefactor of Langley Abbey,
Norfolk, and Clairruissel Abbey, Normandy, younger son. He was heir
before 1216 to his older brother, Gerard de Gournay. He married (lst)
before 1222 LUCY _____, widow of Robert de Berkeley (died 13 May
1220), Baron of Berkeley, co. Gloucester, and niece [neptis] of
William Longespée, Earl of Salisbury. They had no issue. He joined
the barons against King John. In 1216, his manor of Wendover was
granted to William de Fiennes, and in 1218 his lands in Lincolnshire
to William de Cantelowe. His lands were restored on 2 May 1222
(excepting Wendover). In 1223 the king ordered his lands in cos.
Gloucester, Warwick, and Leicester be taken for attending a tournament
without leave at Blyth, co. Nottingham. The same year he lost all his
land in the jurisdiction of the Constable of Bristol for hunting in
the royal forest without leave. He fought against the Welsh in 1228
and in Brittany in 1234. His wife, Lucy, died 18 January 1234, and
was buried at St. Augustine's. He married (2nd) MAUD _____. They had
one daughter, Juliane (or Gillian). HUGH DE GOURNAY died shortly
before 23 July 1238, and was buried at Langley Abbey. His widow,
Maud, married (2nd) after 1241 (as his lst wife) ROGER DE CLIFFORD,
Knt. (died 1286), of Tenbury and Severn Stoke, co. Worcester. She was
living in 1255, but dead prior to 1272.
Daniel Gurney, Record of the House of Gournay (1848), pp. 22 (chart),
184-197. C.P. 2 (1912): 126. Bedfordshire Historical Record Society
7 (1922): 153-157; 19 (1937): charts fol. pg. 99. Oxfordshire Record
Society 7 (1925): 7-15; 56 (1989): 21, 24, 63-64. J. G. Jenkins,
Cartulary of Missenden Abbey 1 (1938): 209; 244-245; 3 (1962): 64-65.
Curia Regis Rolls 10 (1949): 300-302. Paget (1957), 55:1 (sub
Berkeley); 266: 1-4 (sub Gurnay). I.J. Sanders, English Baronies
(1960), pg. 13. Genealogists' Magazine 23 (1990): ??. Curia Regis
Rolls 18 (1999): 79,217.
Child of Hugh de Gournay, by Maud _____:
i. JULIANE (or GILLIAN) DE GOURNAY, married WILLIAM BARDOLF, Baron of
Wormegay, Norfolk [see BARDOLF 13].
c...@windsong.u-net.com (Cristopher Nash) wrote in message news:<a05100302ba465474143c@[10.0.1.2]>...
The...@aol.com
Dear Douglas, Cris, Chris, et al.,
Douglas, thank you for your good (and detailed) post re: Hugh (aka
Hugh 'VI') de Gournay and his career. I will review the post in detail
tomorrow - I am hoping to gather a bit more documentation re: the Gournay
and other families in short order, and will see what of these sources can
be consulted directly.
In looking over the Gournay sources in my records, I noted a thread on
SGM from March 2002 [1] in which a significant question developed: the
identity of Maud/Matilda, wife of (1) Hugh 'VI' de Gournay (d. 1238) and
(2) Roger de Clifford (d. 1285). As Douglas pointed out then, Roger de
Clifford is present in the ancestry of a good many modern descendants,
together with Maud/Matilda: if she was the mother of Hugh de Gournay's
daughter and heiress Juliana, the same is true of that union.
The key to identifying Maud's parentage may lie in the lawsuit of 1242-
4 involving Roger de Clifford, his wife Maud, and Christian Ledet. What
we know concerning Christian Ledet follows:
1. Christian Ledet was the daughter of Wischard Ledet, of Warden, co.
Northants., by Margaret Foliot, daughter and heiress of Robert
Foliot of of Chipping Warden, co. Northants. Christian was the
heiress of her mother [3]. She brought Chipping Warden, co.
Northants. as her inheritance or maritagium, evidently given to her
second son. She married three times:
A. Sir Henry de Braibroc [Braybrooke], Knt., of Braybrook, co.
Northants. (d. before 13 Apr 1234).
'Henry de Braibroc sheriff of Northampton' witnessed a charter ca.
1210-1215 - PRO, Northamptonshire Record Office: Andrew of
Harlestone Collection [ A 11 ] [4]
supporter of the baronial opposition to King John; returned to
allegiance of King Henry III, 1217 and restored to his lands
Justice itinerant for Buckinghamshire and Bedfordshire, 1224
captured and held prisoner by Fulk de Breaute at Bedford Castle
for imposition of a fine [freed by siege under King Henry III]
Issue:
1. Sir John de Braybrooke.
Knt., of Horsenden, co. Bucks. d. before 1287.
feoffment by Richard de Waldboeuf:
'Account of Richard de Foderingeye, bailiff of Horsenden -
ref. D 42/B1/4 - date: [1323-1324] - * erroneous dating
[John de Braybrooke already deceased]
(a) Feoffment. Richard de Oyldebuf to John de Braybrock and
Joan his wife of all lands, rents and tenements in
Horsenden, Risborough, Haddenham, Chalfont, Canfield,
Stewkley, Wing, Burton, Brickhill Wavendon, Rammordewick
and Bluham in counties Bedford, Buckingham and Hertford
which R. had of the said John. To hold of the donor for
their lifetimes, rendering a pair of gilded spurs
annually at Easter for all services, saving forinsec
services. Remainder to Gerard de Braybroc, son of the
said John and Joan, and the heirs of his body.
(b) Feoffment. Richard de Oyldebuf to John de Braybrock,
Joan his wife and Gerard de Braybrock their son and the
heirs of the body of Gerard. Lands, rents and tenements
in Horsenden, etc. [not listed]. To hold of the donor
rendering a pair of gilded spurs annually. Warranty
clause: Remainder to the right heirs of John de
Braybrock.
Witnesses. Sir Wychard Ledet,...' - PRO,
Buckinghamshire Records and Local Studies Service: Grubb
Estate - Early deeds of Horsenden, Risborough, etc
[ D 42/B1/4 ] [4]
2. Wischard Ledet, of Chipping Warden, co. Northants.
adopted his mother's surname in connection with his
inheritance
' Sir Wychard Ledet', witness to feoffment of brother John
de Braybrooke [4]
B. Gerard de Furnival, identified by Brice Clagett as a younger
son of Gerard de Furnival, of Munden Furnivall, co. Essex, and
his wife Maud de Luvetot (heiress of Worksop, & c.). Gerard
evidently died ca. 1241/2
Issue:
1. Sir Gerard de Furnival, of Munden Furnival.
C. Thomas de Grelley
Given the lack of details concerning the lawsuit, it is impossible to
guess at the basis: however, as Douglas suggested, it seems quite likely
that Maud, wife of Roger de Clifford, was an heiress (or coheiress) or
widow with dower rights in Northamptonshire. In that we know Christian
Ledet was herself a widow in 1241/2, at the death of Gerard de Furnival,
it seems quite likely that Maud was an heiress (either of her mother,
father or both) disputing matters, possibly involving Christian Ledet's
claims (or desires) re: her dower rights. Two strong possibilities:
1. Maud was the daughter of Gerard de Furnival, and was not her
father's heir due to Christian having produced a son.
2. Maud was a daughter of Sir Henry de Braibroc (whether by Christian
or not). This at least would explain (with no details to date)
the property dispute occurring in Northants.
Should anyone have any relevant information, including any Clifford
holdings in Northants., it would likely go a long way toward resolving
this ancestral gap.
Good luck, and good hunting.
John *
NOTES
[1] <Further evidence re. Maud, lst wife of Roger de Clifford>, posts to
SGM by Douglas Richardson, Kevan Barton and Robert Baxter, March
2002.
[2] Ibid. Douglas provided much useful information in his first post in
this thread, including
'..... an abstract of a lawsuit which provides concrete evidence to
prove the given name of Roger de Clifford's wife, Maud. The abstract
of this lawsuit is found in Curia Regis Rolls, vol. 18 (1999), pp. 79,
217, a copy of which reads as follows:
Trinity Term, 27 Henry III (1242).
418. Northampton.
Rogerus de Clifford' et Matillis uxor ejus per attornatum ipsius
Matillidis per breve domini regis nunc optulerunt se quarto die versus
Cristianam Ledet de placito averiorum Rogeri et Matillidis captorum et
injuste detentorum etc.; et Cristiana non venit etc., et habuit diem
per essoniatorem suum ad hunc diem. Judicium. Attachietur quod sit
in octabis sancti Michaelis, quia alium diem etc.
27-28 Henry III (1243-1244).
1050. Northampton. Rogerus de Cliford' et Matillis uxor ejus per
attornatum suum optulerunt se iiij. die versus Cristianam Leydet de
placito averiorum ipsius Rogeri et Matillidis captorum et injuste
detentorum etc.; et Cristiana non venit etc., et plures fecit defaltas
etc. Et ideo preceptum est vicecomiti quod distringat eam per terras
etc., ita quod habeat corpus ejus in octabis sancte Trinitatis etc.
[3] Pedigree of Braybrooke of Braybrooke (Robert O'Connor)
[4] PRO site (texts of various charters and documents)
* John P. Ravilious
Stewart, Peter
> To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
> Subject: The buffoonery of a poseur
>
> <snip>
> Dear "Peter" (or is it Spencer? - I can't tell)
>
> You've used the word "buffoonery" once again to viciously attack a
> member of the newsgroup. Before it was Mr. Reed and Mr. Thompson, now
> it is me. The newsgroup is the place for friendship and collegiality,
> not petty bickering. If you have something of value and intelligence
> to post on the matter of the bastards of King John, please do so.
> Otherwise, please refrain from posting "silage" (to quote your own
> vocabulary).
>
> By the way, where did you say you lived, "Peter"? Is there a real
> person behind the poseur? I can't tell. The questions are simple -
> the answers are revealing.
>
So he is back to this....
I live in Melbourne, far from Hawaii.
I have never described Paul Reed or Neil Thompson as "buffoons".
"My" vocabulary is the common heritage of English-speaking people
everywhere. Someone who knows so few English words as to have trouble with
this concept - and who a week or two ago thought the Latin for "dead" was
"mortus" [sic] - would be well advised not to post condescending remarks
about anyone else's knowledge of medieval Latin.
And it is certainly far from "collegial" of Richardson to patronise John
Carmi Parsons, a most distinguished historian.
This newsgroup is an entirely suitable place to point out - as often as need
be - that someone posing as a leading expert in medieval genealogy is really
a phoney, a straw man of little learning & narrow, self-interested
perspective.
Disrespectfully his
Peter Stewart
D. Spencer Hines
stentoriously on this anserine theme that Peter Stewart and Spencer Hines are
somehow one and the same person.
You have it exactly right, Peter.
It's gaffes of this sort ---- blind, unreasoning and stubborn defiance of the
facts ---- that leads me to distrust your ability to turn out a worthy PA3,
Douglas. You are acting like a spoiled, mischievous child ---- not a grown
man.
You know that I am in your corner, as I have often said, to the extent that I
truly hope and pray you will carry everything off and have a Great Success
with PA3.
I WANT YOU TO SUCCEED....
You can DO that while still giving all due and proper credit to your
sources ---- and your friends, colleagues and contributors. You just need to
be more honest and careful ---- and keep better records.
But I'm NOT going to compromise my standards of integrity and candour by
pretending you are Right when you are clearly in the Wrong....
Keeping you on track and on task in this effort has required a great deal of
effort on my part ---- and I'm NOT going to slack off or relax the pressure on
you to Excel ---- to do BETTER than your Very Best.
Endeavour To Persevere....
And I DO intend to hold you to our bargain ---- that you WILL send me an
autographed copy, engraved with a personal message ---- presumably of
gratitude and thanks for the good advice and wise, Dutch-Uncle admonitions
I've given you.
You STILL have not been straightforward and honest enough to affirm that
bargain ---- as you should, posthaste
No ---- I don't expect TWO copies of PA3, one for myself and one for the local
Hawaii State Library, as you suggested I BUY.
Just ONE copy will suffice ---- and as you promised ---- sent to me by you,
gratis.
Deus Vult.
"For we must consider that we shall be a city upon a hill. The eyes of all
people are upon us, so that if we shall deal falsely with our God in this work
we have undertaken, and so cause him to withdraw His present help from us, we
shall be made a story and a byword through the world."
John Winthrop [1588-1649] A Model of Christian Charity [1630], A Sermon
Delivered aboard Arbella, enroute to the New World; First Governor of
Massachusetts Bay Colony.
Ubique Quo Fas Et Gloria Ducunt --- Motto of the Royal Artillery
All replies to the newsgroup please. Thank you kindly. All original material
contained herein is copyright and property of the author. It may be quoted
only in discussions on this forum and with an attribution to the author,
unless permission is otherwise expressly given, in writing.
------------------
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor.
""Stewart, Peter"" <Peter....@crsrehab.gov.au> wrote in message
news:BE9CF8DEAB7ED311B05E...@v003138e.crsrehab.gov.au...
Cristopher Nash
>Dear Cris, Chris, etc.
>
>Below is an account of the life of Hugh de Gournay who married Lucy,
>widow of Robert de Berkeley. As you can see, Hugh de Gournay had two
>marriages, first to Lucy de Berkeley, and (2nd) to Maud _____. He
>had his daughter and heiress, Juliane, by his 2nd marriage to Maud. I
>have provided my sources.
>
>Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
>
>E-mail: royala...@msn.com
>
>- - - - - - - - - -
>GOURNAY FAMILY
>
>1. HUGH DE GOURNAY, of Wendover, co. Buckingham, Caister and Cantley,
>Norfolk, Mapledurham, co. Oxford, benefactor of Langley Abbey,
>Norfolk, and Clairruissel Abbey, Normandy, younger son. He was heir
>before 1216 to his older brother, Gerard de Gournay. He married (lst)
>before 1222 LUCY _____, widow of Robert de Berkeley (died 13 May
>1220), Baron of Berkeley, co. Gloucester, and niece [neptis] of
>William LongespČe, Earl of Salisbury. They had no issue. He joined
>the barons against King John. In 1216, his manor of Wendover was
>granted to William de Fiennes, and in 1218 his lands in Lincolnshire
>to William de Cantelowe. His lands were restored on 2 May 1222
>(excepting Wendover). In 1223 the king ordered his lands in cos.
>Gloucester, Warwick, and Leicester be taken for attending a tournament
>without leave at Blyth, co. Nottingham. The same year he lost all his
>land in the jurisdiction of the Constable of Bristol for hunting in
>the royal forest without leave. He fought against the Welsh in 1228
>and in Brittany in 1234. His wife, Lucy, died 18 January 1234, and
>was buried at St. Augustine's. He married (2nd) MAUD _____. They had
>one daughter, Juliane (or Gillian). HUGH DE GOURNAY died shortly
>before 23 July 1238, and was buried at Langley Abbey. His widow,
>Maud, married (2nd) after 1241 (as his lst wife) ROGER DE CLIFFORD,
>Knt. (died 1286), of Tenbury and Severn Stoke, co. Worcester. She was
>living in 1255, but dead prior to 1272.
>
>Daniel Gurney, Record of the House of Gournay (1848), pp. 22 (chart),
>184-197.
[SNIP]
It appears that John Carmi Parsons' proposal of Lucy as the mother of
Juliana needs at least to be reconsidered and that his lack of
mention at the time of Matilda/Maud may indicate that he had not yet
completed his own consideration of alternative possibilities.
I need to hasten to say that it was to the Daniel Gurney, above, that
(in writing of a problem on p. 187 for the Lucy-mother-of-Juliana
proposal) I intended to refer when I wrote, and not to "The Early
History of Mapledurham," Alfred Hands Cooke, and that my subseq.
expression of general reservations concerning the text's accuracy
referred to the Gurney and not to the Cooke Booke. My sincere
apologies - especially to John and to Tim, whose source John had
cited in good faith - if this may have caused trouble to anyone here.
Thanks, too, John, for your good suggestions concerning the possible
origins of Matilda/Maud.
Cris
--
Douglas Richardson
>
> This newsgroup is an entirely suitable place to point out - as often as need
> be - that someone posing as a leading expert in medieval genealogy is really
> a phoney, a straw man of little learning & narrow, self-interested
> perspective.
>
> Disrespectfully his
>
> Peter Stewart
Dear "Peter" ~
Ooops, you did it again. You used the expression "straw man" above.
Did you know straw man happens to be one of Spencer Hines' favorite
expressions. I've posted many examples below! You're sounding and
acting like Spencer more and more all the time. Are you sure you live
in Melbourne, or does Spencer not live in Hawaii? Not to sound
patronizing, but this really intrigues me. Is there a straw man
behind the poseur? Or is the poseur the straw man? I hope you don't
mind me teasing you a little. It's been a real slow Sunday on the
newsgroup.
Respectfully yours, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
E-mail: royala...@msn.com
- - - - - - - - - -
EXAMPLES OF SPENCER HINES' USE OF THE EXPRESSION, STRAW MAN
Re: Was Solution, Now Straw Man
... expressly given, in writing. ---- D. Spencer Hines Lux et Veritas
et Libertas ... true
focus by creating a straw man, stating what you claim that ...
soc.genealogy.medieval - Feb. 14, 2002 by D. Spencer Hines - View
Thread (2 articles)
Re: More Reynolds...
... this context --- used to build the Straw Man. Of course not --
this would be ... be,
"Away from my sources." D. Spencer Hines Lux et Veritas Exitus Acta
...
soc.history.medieval - Aug. 30, 1999 by D. Spencer Hines - View Thread
(56 articles)
Re: Litigiousness
... or of anything else. Straw-man opponents such as ... Meanes with
events, a man may seem
to have ... in writing. ---- D. Spencer Hines Lux et Veritas et ...
soc.history.medieval - Aug. 18, 2001 by D. Spencer Hines - View Thread
(16 articles)
Re: History & Historiography
... to new, more favourable, terrain ---- a straw man of his own
construction ... given,
in writing. ---- D. Spencer Hines Lux et Veritas et ...
soc.history.medieval - Dec. 12, 2002 by D. Spencer Hines - View Thread
(8 articles)
Re: Industrial Revolution 500-1000 Years Earlier?
... seeking to demolish the straw man that *he* had ... like that: no
ordinary man could
be such a ... given, in writing. ---- D. Spencer Hines Lux et Veritas
...
soc.history.medieval - Apr. 2, 2002 by D. Spencer Hines - View Thread
(13 articles)
Re: Flat-Earthers Of The World Unite...
... it into a convenient straw man. He then proceeds ... like that: no
ordinary man could
be such a ... given, in writing. ---- D. Spencer Hines Lux et Veritas
...
soc.history.medieval - Mar. 17, 2002 by D. Spencer Hines - View Thread
(142 articles)
Re: _Carmen de Hastingae Proelio_
... in writing. ---- D. Spencer Hines Lux et Veritas et ... am feeling
quite chipper!
:) But Spencer is right that Paul ... to put up a straw man over the
Carmen ...
soc.history.medieval - Jun. 2, 2002 by D. Spencer Hines - View Thread
(90 articles)
DeVries' "Infantry Warfare" -- The Whitewash Exposed
... even to knock down his own straw man, for the book's argument and
approach ... the record?
[To Be Continued] D. Spencer Hines Lux et Veritas Qui Desiderat ...
soc.history.medieval - Mar. 14, 1999 by D. Spencer Hines - View Thread
(3 articles)
Re: Gans On Collateral Descent
... the argument is a straw man. 3. Gans is not ... Meanes with
events, a man may seem to
have ... given, in writing. ---- D. Spencer Hines Lux et Veritas et
...
soc.genealogy.medieval - Aug. 21, 2001 by D. Spencer Hines - View
Thread (17 articles)
Re: "Collateral Descent"
... Small boys playing stickfinger. Straw man argument. Red herring
... with events, a man
may seem to ... in writing. ---- D. Spencer Hines Lux et Veritas et
...
soc.genealogy.medieval - Aug. 20, 2001 by D. Spencer Hines - View
Thread (80 articles)
Re: "There Are No Historical Facts"
... leads him to a flimsy straw man and a _reductio ad ... at NYU, and
a man who has written
extensively ... and the patience. -- D. Spencer Hines Lux et Veritas
et ...
soc.genealogy.medieval - Aug. 17, 2000 by D. Spencer Hines - View
Thread (39 articles)
Re: The _Shaygets_
1. Red Herring. 2. Straw Man. 3. _Ignoratio Elenchi_. _Shaygets_ was
... Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi
Asinum. -- D. Spencer Hines Lux et Veritas et Libertas ...
soc.history.medieval - Feb. 13, 2001 by D. Spencer Hines - View Thread
(59 articles)
Re: New Evidence for Parentage of Alice (Camoys) Hastings
... Henry Sutliff ----- Straw Man. Non Sequitur. Hines ... We don't
need
Straw Men here. Now ... in writing. ---- D. Spencer Hines Lux et ...
soc.genealogy.medieval - Oct. 16, 2001 by D. Spencer Hines - View
Thread (31 articles)
Re: Margaret de Clare's Dower
... expressly given, in writing. ---- D. Spencer Hines Lux et Veritas
et Libertas ... has
been demolished. It's a straw man fallacy because it fails to ...
soc.genealogy.medieval - Jun. 24, 2002 by D. Spencer Hines - View
Thread (24 articles)
Re: Almost Off Topic; Language Sensitivities
... are attacking a straw man construct that no serious Historian or
Sociologist or Demographer
would seek to construct or defend. D. Spencer Hines Lux et Veritas ...
soc.genealogy.medieval - Aug. 26, 1999 by D. Spencer Hines - View
Thread (10 articles)
Re: Anything Medieval
... Paul J. Gans ----- Straw Man. That is a ... like that: no ordinary
man
could be such a ... in writing. ---- D. Spencer Hines Lux et Veritas
...
soc.history.medieval - Apr. 2, 2002 by D. Spencer Hines - View Thread
(296 articles)
Re: Land Tenure in ca. 1066
... attendant on land holding] Of course, that is a straw man
definition of "feudalism."
-- D. Spencer Hines Lux et Veritas et Libertas "The final happiness of
man ...
soc.history.medieval - Aug. 10, 2000 by D. Spencer Hines - View Thread
(42 articles)
Re: Saddam & Weapons Of Mass Destruction [WMD]
... to set up a straw man for instant ... was tested ---- "Fat Man"
---- the plutonium implosion ... in
writing. ---- D. Spencer Hines Lux et Veritas ...
soc.history.medieval - Dec. 11, 2002 by D. Spencer Hines - View Thread
(11 articles)
Re: Horse Harness --- The Final Word Written By History ?
... Sort Of Thing. Deus Vult ----- D. Spencer Hines Lux et Veritas et
Libertas
Vires ... is to have created a straw man that was easy for him to ...
soc.history.medieval - Dec. 7, 2002 by D. Spencer Hines - View Thread
(3 articles)
Historians And Causes
... of his puerile, bulvonish, straw men again. This one ... like
that: no ordinary man could
be such a ... in writing. ---- D. Spencer Hines Lux et Veritas et ...
soc.history.medieval - Mar. 20, 2002 by D. Spencer Hines - View Thread
(3 articles)
Don Rodrigo de Vivar "El Cid"
... on a pile of straw with Heston and exchanging ... She even marries
a man she has sworn
to ... Christmas, Spence Hines D. Spencer Hines-----The silliest woman
can ...
soc.genealogy.medieval - Dec. 21, 1996 by D. Spencer Hines - View
Thread (10 articles)
Re: Piers' Paternity & Gaveston Family
... at all to doing so. Finton "Straw man. That is like assuming that
... expressly given,
in writing. ---- D. Spencer Hines Lux et Veritas et ...
soc.genealogy.medieval - Oct. 10, 2002 by D. Spencer Hines - View
Thread (81 articles)
Re: The Renaissance
It's simply a straw man argument ---- without even a pretence of ...
expressly given,
in writing. ---- D. Spencer Hines Lux et Veritas et Libertas ...
soc.history.medieval - Jan. 10, 2002 by D. Spencer Hines - View Thread
(32 articles)
Re: Coats of Arms
... issue here. You are setting up a convenient straw man ---- not
worth the powder to
blow it to Hades. -- D. Spencer Hines Lux et Veritas et Libertas
"Forsan et ...
soc.genealogy.medieval - May. 27, 2001 by D. Spencer Hines - View
Thread (84 articles)
Re: Historians Need Dates
Non Sequitur. Red Herring. Straw Man. -- D. Spencer Hines Lux et
Veritas et Libertas
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to
do ...
soc.history.medieval - Apr. 24, 2001 by D. Spencer Hines - View Thread
(25 articles)
Re: (Very Long) Re: Battles at Night
... Gans continues to flog this dead horse straw man. He is using it
as a ... for a very
amusing scene. -- D. Spencer Hines Lux et Veritas et Libertas "Much
...
soc.history.medieval - Oct. 17, 2000 by D. Spencer Hines - View Thread
(30 articles)
Re: What One Can Learn From Romances
... panic." Paul J. Gans ----- Red Herring. Straw Man. Non Sequitur.
Teaching Grandmother To Suck Eggs. -- D. Spencer Hines Lux et Veritas
et ...
soc.history.medieval - Jul. 26, 2000 by D. Spencer Hines - View Thread
(43 articles)
"Creationists" & "Evolutionists"
... Sophomoric In The Extreme ---- Little More Than Straw Man
Flogging, A Great Deal
Of The Time. -- D. Spencer Hines Lux et Veritas et Libertas "The chess
board ...
talk.origins - May. 18, 2000 by D. Spencer Hines - View Thread (50
articles)
Re: Magna Carta And The US
... a red herring, as well as a straw man, to harp on the issue as to
... Hampton, the detritus
hit the fan. -- D. Spencer Hines Lux et Veritas et Libertas "I ...
soc.history.medieval - Apr. 21, 2000 by D. Spencer Hines - View Thread
(29 articles)
Re: The Feigned Retreat Et Alia [Re: Quotations...]
... translation ---- Gans sets up straw men and then gaily ... was
always here. Before man
was, war waited ... in writing. ---- D. Spencer Hines Lux et Veritas
...
soc.history.medieval - Jan. 19, 2002 by D. Spencer Hines - View Thread
(85 articles)
Re: Battles At Night
... his audience, when he writes a straw man sentence like this one:
"Further ... in total
darkness?' " [pjg] -- D. Spencer Hines Lux et Veritas et Libertas ...
alt.history.british - Oct. 16, 2000 by D. Spencer Hines - View Thread
(92 articles)
The Williams Family
In my own humble opinion the situation here is that you are attempting to make a buffoonish straw man out of someone who is entirely
different from the errant pogue you think he is.
Deus Vult!
Sincerely,
"Kelsey J. Williams"
>
>
> Peter....@crsrehab.gov.au ("Stewart, Peter") wrote in message news:<BE9CF8DEAB7ED311B05E...@v003138e.crsrehab.gov.au>...
> > > -----Original Message-----
> >
> > This newsgroup is an entirely suitable place to point out - as often as need
> > be - that someone posing as a leading expert in medieval genealogy is really
> > a phoney, a straw man of little learning & narrow, self-interested
> > perspective.
> >
> > Disrespectfully his
> >
> > Peter Stewart
>
> Dear "Peter" ~
>
> Ooops, you did it again. You used the expression "straw man" above.
> Did you know straw man happens to be one of Spencer Hines' favorite
> expressions. I've posted many examples below! You're sounding and
> acting like Spencer more and more all the time. Are you sure you live
> in Melbourne, or does Spencer not live in Hawaii? Not to sound
> patronizing, but this really intrigues me. Is there a straw man
> behind the poseur? Or is the poseur the straw man? I hope you don't
> mind me teasing you a little. It's been a real slow Sunday on the
> newsgroup.
>
> Respectfully yours, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
>
> E-mail: royala...@msn.com
>
> - - - - - - - - - -
> EXAMPLES OF SPENCER HINES' USE OF THE EXPRESSION, STRAW MAN
<snip>
Douglas Richardson
> Hello,
>
> In my own humble opinion the situation here is that you are attempting to make a buffoonish straw man out of someone who is entirely
> different from the errant pogue you think he is.
>
> Deus Vult!
>
> Sincerely,
> "Kelsey J. Williams"
>
Errant pogues? Buffoonish straw men? You're right - they have
nothing in common. It was pure twaddle, balderdash, and codswollop.
Thanks for the laugh, Kelsey.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
E-mail: royala...@msn.com
Tony Ingham
I suggest you see a doctor and then a psychiatrist.
All this work on "your forthcoming book" must have unbalanced you.
What a lot of bloody twaddle. Stop ii man! before you come across as a complete idiot.
Tony Ingham
Stewart, Peter
> From: Tony Ingham [mailto:nugg...@hotkey.net.au]
> Sent: Tuesday, 14 January 2003 13:56
> To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
> Subject: Re: The poseur is a straw man
>
>
> Douglas,
>
> I suggest you see a doctor and then a psychiatrist.
>
> All this work on "your forthcoming book" must have unbalanced you.
>
> What a lot of bloody twaddle. Stop ii man! before you come
> across as a complete idiot.
We must hope he can find a doctor in Salt Lake City who knows the difference
between "cerebellum" and "cerebrum", and who doesn't think the appropriate
adjective for "dead" to agree with either noun is "mortus". Then this medico
may need to put up with a lecture based on his patient's delusion about long
years of familiarity with Latin documents. Perhaps the cause of this rare
kind of malignant fraudulence will come to light.
Meanwhile we have to put up with the tedium of what passes to him for wit.
Of course, he only manages to tease and disconcert his own claque of
supporters, aka multiple personalities in the medical literature -
apparently dwindling in number and/or energy, to judge from the absence of
private abuse directed at me lately.
Peter Stewart
Richard C. Browning, Jr.
Nash with the following information. He suggested that I post it to the
List, so here it is. Additionally I would like for some of the experts
to look at the whole of the Extracts and let me know what credence can
be given to John Smyth of Nibley and the information contained in this
manuscript. I tend to believe what he says about the Brownings
mentioned, as he married into the family, but would like some sort of
confirmation.
Thanks for any help you may have.
Richard C. Browning, Jr.
Grand Prairie, TX
-----Original Message-----
From: Richard C. Browning, Jr. [mailto:richard....@direcway.com]
Sent: Sunday, January 12, 2003 20:51
To: 'Cristopher Nash'
Subject: RE: Gournay & Bastard Children of King John
Christopher
I have been lurking on this list for quite a while and have been getting
ready to post a few questions. Concerning Hugh de Gournay, I found the
following quote in
[1] - Abstracts and Extracts from Smyth's Lives of the Berkeley Family,
MS.
http://www.infosources.co.uk/berkl/abstrax.htm
8 July after the death of this Lord Robert, Lucy his widow obtained from
the King's Councils the Manors of Wotton, Slimbridge, and Bedminster,
out of the hands of the King's Committees, for her sustenance, till the
heir had seisin of his lands, and could assign dower, which, not long
after, she had at the Assizes at Gloucester, 5 Henry III. The Jury
presented, that she the said Lucy was the King's widow de donacione D'ni
Regis, and to be married, and that the lands whereof she was endowed
were in value £100 per annum. MS. Veel, p.115, 116.
My question is what is meant by "King's widow de donacione D'ni Regis"
There are other mentions of Hugh de Gournay, Lucy and other a couple of
other de Gournay names.
Thank you for your help.
Richard C. Browning, Jr.
Grand Prairie, TX
-----Original Message-----
From: Cristopher Nash [mailto:c...@windsong.u-net.com]
Sent: Sunday, January 12, 2003 19:54
To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Gournay & Bastard Children of King John
Douglas Richardson wrote, very helpfully --
>Dear Cris, Chris, etc.
>
>Below is an account of the life of Hugh de Gournay who married Lucy,
>widow of Robert de Berkeley. As you can see, Hugh de Gournay had two
>marriages, first to Lucy de Berkeley, and (2nd) to Maud _____. He
>had his daughter and heiress, Juliane, by his 2nd marriage to Maud. I
>have provided my sources.
>
>Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
>
>E-mail: royala...@msn.com
>
>- - - - - - - - - -
>GOURNAY FAMILY
>
>1. HUGH DE GOURNAY, of Wendover, co. Buckingham, Caister and Cantley,
>Norfolk, Mapledurham, co. Oxford, benefactor of Langley Abbey,
>Norfolk, and Clairruissel Abbey, Normandy, younger son. He was heir
>before 1216 to his older brother, Gerard de Gournay. He married (lst)
>before 1222 LUCY _____, widow of Robert de Berkeley (died 13 May
>1220), Baron of Berkeley, co. Gloucester, and niece [neptis] of
>William LongespÈe, Earl of Salisbury. They had no issue. He joined
Richard C. Browning, Jr.
and Extracts of Smyth's Lives of the Berkley Family, I have tried to
summarize the lineage it provides for Hugh de Gournay.
Here is what I found
"This Robert [de Gournay] had a younger brother called Hugh de Gournay,
of great estimation with King Richard the First, to whom came divers
manors and lands after the death of Maurice de Gant his uncle, from
whom, by Lucy his wife, proceeded divers issues. MS. Veel."
Pedegree in this document shows
Robert de Were = Hawise de Gurney, Robert was the son of Robert
Fitzharding, Lord of Berkeley. Children, Margaret de Somery, ob s.p. 8
H.III Maurice called De Gant, s.p. Eve de Gurnay, afterwards wife of
Thomas, Son of William, Son of John De Harptree = [this is how Eve is
shown in the pedigree
Child of Eve de Gurnay and =
Robert De Gourney, devisee in the will of his uncle Maurice
Not shown in pedigree but as stated above, Hugh de Gournay
No descent from Hugh is shown in this document but four partial
generations of Robert are given.
From this lineage I calculate that Hugh was the Great grandson of Robert
Fitzharding, and Lucy, his wife was married to Robert, grandson of
Robert Fitzharding
Thanks for your understanding and help
Richard C. Browning, Jr.
Grand Prairie, TX
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Cristopher Nash [mailto:c...@windsong.u-net.com]
> Sent: Sunday, January 12, 2003 19:54
> To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
> Subject: Re: Gournay & Bastard Children of King John
>
Tim Powys-Lybbe
"Richard C. Browning, Jr." <bro...@anet-dfw.com> wrote:
> After re-reading this post and referring back to Fosbroke's Abstracts
> and Extracts of Smyth's Lives of the Berkley Family, I have tried to
> summarize the lineage it provides for Hugh de Gournay.
Let's start from the Real McCoy, Smyth's "Lives of the Berkeleys"
itself, pp. 52 and 53.
>
> Here is what I found
>
> "This Robert [de Gournay] had a younger brother called Hugh de Gournay,
> of great estimation with King Richard the First, to whom came divers
> manors and lands after the death of Maurice de Gant his uncle, from
> whom, by Lucy his wife, proceeded divers issues. MS. Veel."
The text on page 53 reads:
"This Robert de Gurnay had a younger brother called Hugh de Gurnay of
great estimation with King Richard the first, as the grants to him
made, declare ; To whom came the Inheritance of divers mannors and
lands after the death of Mawrice de Gant his vncle, from whome by Lucia
his wife proceeded divers issues of remarkeablenes in theire
generations."
(No mention of "MS Veel", but various references, in the margin, to odd
charters.)
>
> Pedegree in this document shows
>
> Robert de Were = Hawise de Gurney, Robert was the son of Robert
> Fitzharding, Lord of Berkeley. Children, Margaret de Somery, ob s.p. 8
> H.III Maurice called De Gant, s.p. Eve de Gurnay, afterwards wife of
> Thomas, Son of William, Son of John De Harptree = [this is how Eve is
> shown in the pedigree
The pedigree on page 20 of the book is done by A. S. Ellis who was one
of the editorial team of the Bristol and Gloucestershire Archaeological
Society (who published Smyth's book). The purpose of this pedigree was
to correct the presumed rubbish by Smith that the original Harding was
the son of a king of Denmark. See Note A on page 19.
There is no other pedigree in the book on the early Hardings/Berkeleys.
Robert FitzHarding got Berkeley from the Empress Matilda or her son
Henry after it had been taken from the Berkeleys themselves. This
Robert had a son Maurice who married Alice, the Berkeley heiress and a
younger son Robert "de Were" (d. by 1195) who indeed married (1) Hawise
de Gournay and (2) Avicia de Gaunt.
Robert "de Were" and Hawise are reported to have had one dau. Eva
Robert "de Ware" and Avicia are reported to have had two sons, Maurice
"de Gaunt" and Henry "de Gaunt".
Eva married (1) Thomas de Tilly and (2) Roger de Peauton.
Maurice "de Gaunt" married (1) Matilda d'Oily (who dsp) and (2)
Margaret who was widow of Ralph de Someri.
Back to page 53
===============
Here is where the fun starts. The above is from the pedigree by A S
Ellis. But Smyth gives quite different marriages to Eve. I do not know
who is right!
> Child of Eve de Gurnay and =
> Robert De Gourney, devisee in the will of his uncle Maurice
> Not shown in pedigree but as stated above, Hugh de Gournay
This Robert and Hugh are both shown on pp. 52-3 as the sons of Eve and a
___ Gurnay.
>
> No descent from Hugh is shown in this document but four partial
> generations of Robert are given.
Agreed that nothing is shown for Hugh, apart from his wife Lucy.
Robert married Hawisia de longo campo (not Lucy, that was Hugh who
married her) and they had a son Anselme de Gurnay.
Anselme married Sibell and had issue John de Gurnay and Thomas de
Gurnay, "whose grandchild Thomas de Gurnay was the murtherer of King
Edward the second in Berkeley Castle". Anselm died in the 9th year of
Edward I.
John de Gurnay, son of Ansleme, was 20 at hs father's death, married
Oliva and died in the 19th year of "ye sayd kinge" (Ed I?). They had
an only daughter, Elizabeth who married Sir John Ap-Adam, son of
Reginald.
Elizabeth and John had a son Thomas, made ward to Hugh le Despenser.
>
> From this lineage I calculate that Hugh was the Great grandson of Robert
> Fitzharding, and Lucy, his wife was married to Robert, grandson of
> Robert Fitzharding
Can't see this myself.
>
> Thanks for your understanding and help
>
>
> Richard C. Browning, Jr.
> Grand Prairie, TX
<snip of earlier discussions>
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe t...@powys.org
For a patchwork of bygones: http://powys.org
Richard C. Browning, Jr.
Thanks for your response and information. I have been wondering just
how accurate the website's transcriptions. I think you have proven that
one can't depend on this site for anything.
Is the copy of Smyth's "Lives of the Berkeleys" your personal copy or is
it from a library? I have tried without luck to search the internet
library on-line catalogues for to locate a copy, just so I could make a
comparision, or if located near enough, to use it as a reference.
I think that, except for a questionable belief of his Browning
information I am going to ignore this version of Smyth's "Lives" and the
Brownings only because he married into that line.
Again, Thanks for you understanding and great help.
Richard C. Browning, Jr.
Grand Prairie, TX
Tim Powys-Lybbe
bro...@anet-dfw.com ("Richard C. Browning, Jr.") wrote:
> Is the copy of Smyth's "Lives of the Berkeleys" your personal copy or is
> it from a library?
It's mine.
> I have tried without luck to search the internet library on-line
> catalogues for to locate a copy, just so I could make a comparision, or
> if located near enough, to use it as a reference.
If I thought there was enough interest, I could offer this to Rod Neep
for him to copy for his ArchiveCD Books project. But he needs to be
convinced, so anyone interested needs to contact him direct
(r...@neep.demon.co.uk)
The...@aol.com
Dear Tim, Richard, et al.,
Haven't had a chance to go back and compare notes on the
Gournays (vs. Berkeley) as you are currently discussing;
pending that, I did have a question:
Dugdale gives Anselm de Gournay, ancestor of the Gournays
of Beverstone, as a younger son of Hugh de Gournay (d. 1214)
by Juliana, currently identified as Juliana de Dammartin,
dau. of Aubrey/Aubri and sister of Simon de Dammartin, count
of Ponthieu dju.
Any chance Msr. Smyth gives a source or sources for his
placement of Anselm as son of Robert de Gournay (whom I also
do not have in my notes)?
Thanks, good luck, and good hunting.
John *
* John P. Ravilious
Dolly Ziegler
available on two rolls of microfilm through your nearest Family History
Center (of the LDS Church). Each roll costs about US$3.50 to order; aftr
it is received, you have 30 days to read it at the FHC. Most FHCs now
have microfilm copiers, but copy costs vary, so ask about prices.
For list lurkers: www.familysearch.org, click on library, click on
catalog, do a surname search on any name. At the same site you can learn
the location of Family History Centers in your area. Tip: call first to
be sure of their hours, all are staffed by volunteers.
Cheers, Dolly in Maryland USA
======================================
Richard C. Browning, Jr.
I for one would definitely purchase a copy. Please do make this offer.
Thanks for your understanding and help.
Richard C. Browning, Jr.
Grand Prairie, TX
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tim Powys-Lybbe [mailto:t...@powys.org]
> Sent: Sunday, January 19, 2003 13:34
> To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
> Subject: RE: Gournay & Bastard Children of King John
>
Richard C. Browning, Jr.
"copy" that was posted on the website and he has the book.
Thanks for your understanding and help.
Richard C. Browning, Jr.
Grand Prairie, TX
Tim Powys-Lybbe
The...@aol.com wrote:
> Haven't had a chance to go back and compare notes on the
> Gournays (vs. Berkeley) as you are currently discussing;
> pending that, I did have a question:
>
> Dugdale gives Anselm de Gournay, ancestor of the Gournays
> of Beverstone, as a younger son of Hugh de Gournay (d. 1214)
> by Juliana, currently identified as Juliana de Dammartin,
> dau. of Aubrey/Aubri and sister of Simon de Dammartin, count
> of Ponthieu dju.
>
> Any chance Msr. Smyth gives a source or sources for his
> placement of Anselm as son of Robert de Gournay (whom I also
> do not have in my notes)?
Let's give you the paragraph concerned and then all the notes that are
in the margin to this paragraph:
"Robert de Gurnay was not onlely sonne and heire of the said Eve, but
also heire to Maurice de Gant his uncle. And also grandchilde and
heire to the said William sonne of John de Harpetre, possessinge all
their lands before mentioned and many others, And had 21. knights ffees
in the Counties of Somersett and Glouc: as the roll of 47. H: 3.
shewes, He maryed Hawisa de longo campo, by whom hee had issue Anselme
de Gurnay, And dyed in the liijth of Henry the third: In which yeare
also after her husband dyed the said Hawisa. This Robert de Gurnay had
a yonger brother called ... [as previously quoted]"
The references in the margin are:
Rot: fin: 16 H. 3. pars: 1. m: 2. 3.
Rot: pip: 2. 5. 9. H: 3 in Sccio
Claus: 47 H: 3.
Clause 53. H: 3 pars 1. m: 5.
Fin: 53. H. 3 pars 1. m: 5.
Claus: 15.H: 3. m: 20.
Cart: 25. H: 3.
pat: 5. E. 3. ps. 2. dorfo.
Eschaet. 53 H: 3. no: 23.
Antiquae cartae in tra. p.
Some of the above lines have been split over two lines in the margin; I
trust I have sorted them out OK.
There are some unusual characters in the above:
"Sccio" has a curly bar above the second "c".
"tra" on the last line has an unusual character where I have put "t";
it could be a cross with a long tail.
Moving on to the next paragraph is starts with:
"The said Anselme de Gurnay sonne and heire of the said Robert, held by
discent from his father the foresayd Manors of Beverston, Kingesweston,
Over, Aylberton &c. The Advowson of St Markes hospitall &c., and And
[sic] many other great possessions in the countyes of Glouc. Somersett,
Dorsett, and Wiltesh.; And was also a baron, And accordingly payde one
hundred pownd in the five and fiftieth of Henry the thrid for his
Fathers reeleese, And by Sibell his wife had issue ..."
The notes in the margin to this are:
Eschaet. post mort: Ansel: de Gurnay. 14 E. 1. [No. 11]
fine rill. 53. H.: 3. pars. 1. m : 7. et 14. 15. E: 1 m: 17.
Rot. pip. 55. H : 3.
Pat : 13. E: 3. pars : 2 in dorso.
I'll be interested to hear if you can find any of the above references
and what they actually said.
Reedpcgen
we use all the time. For example:
[Fine Rolls, but here the older Record Commissions publication Excerpta e
rotulis finium...] Rot: fin: 16 H. 3. pars: 1. m: 2. 3.
[Pipe Rolls] Rot: pip: 2. 5. 9. H: 3 in Sccio [Exchequer/Scaccario]
[Close Rolls] Claus: 47 H: 3.
Clause 53. H: 3 pars 1. m: 5.
[Patent Rolls] pat: 5. E. 3. ps. 2. dorfo.
[Inquisitions post mortem] Eschaet. 53 H: 3. no: 23.
Paul
Tim Powys-Lybbe
reed...@aol.com (Reedpcgen) wrote:
Thanks.
I had wondered whether they had been entered by Smyth and had a look
round the introduction and now suspect that these notes were entered by
the editorial team in c. 1883 when the Bristol and Gloucester
Archaeological Society published these Lives.