William FitzOsbern's descendants
Leo van de Pas
The attention went to Richilde and her parentage, by looking in ES III/4 tafel 695 I am finding some gruesome details.
William FitzOsbern was married first to Adelise de Tosny and they had four children.
Their daughter Emma, is an ancestor of many people on gen-med (see below), but their eldest son was Guillaume who became Lord of Breteuil and of Ivry. He married but appears to have fathered only an illegitimate daughter and son. This son, Eustace de Pacy married Juliana illegitimate daughter of Henry I, King of England and Ansfrida (is this name correct ? I didn't think so)
Eustace de Pacy and Juliana appear to have had two daughters who (my bad translation from German), by orders of their royal grandfather, were blinded and had their noses cut off in 1119.
Does anyone know more about this?
Many thanks.
Leo van de Pas
Emma is an ancestor of :
Richard Borthwick
Brice M Clagett
Ian Fettes
John Steele Gordon
Gordon R. Hale Jr.
Malinda Jones
Peter de Loriol
Bromfield Nichol Jr.
Tim Powys-Lybbe
John Ravilious
William Addams Reitwiesner
Gary Boyd Roberts
Louise Staley
Nat Taylor
Michael Welch
The...@aol.com
Dear Leo,
In the first post in this thread, you mentioned/asked:
" Eustace de Pacy and Juliana appear to have had two daughters
who (my bad translation from German), by orders of their royal
grandfather, were blinded and had their noses cut off in 1119.
Does anyone know more about this? "
The basis of the treachery of Eustace (and his wife Juliana) according
to Hollister was the possession of the castle of Ivry, then held by Robert
'Goel', son of Ascelin 'Goel' and nephew of Eustace. This all followed on
Hollister writes,
' Henry put Eustace off with his accustomed vague assurances,
and to ensure his loyalty a hostage exchange was arranged
between Eustace and Juliana's two daughters (Henry I's
granddaughters) and the son of Ralph Harnec, the constable
of Ivry. There then occurred a series of events that are
at once tragic and incomprehensible. Orderic Vitalis is
our only source for these events, and his account defies
belief. On the advice of the omnipresent Amaury de
Montfort (who perhaps was endeavoring to effect a definitive
break between Eustace and King Henry), Eustace put out
the eyes of his young hostage, Ralph Harnec's son, and
sent the blinded boy back to his father. Why Eustace would
have mutilated an innocent young man - and thereby put his
own daughters in the gravest jeopardy - is impossible to
fathom. Ralph Harnec, appalled and enraged at his son's
mutilation, confronted Henry and demanded vengeance. Henry,
deeply moved by Eustace's seemingly gratuitous atrocity
and in accordance with the custom of hostage exchanges,
handed over his two granddaughters. Ralph thereupon
avenged the blinding of his son by putting out their
eyes and cutting off the tips of their noses. "Thus,"
writes Orderic, "innocent childhood, alas, suffered
for the sins of the fathers." ' [1]
This and the following events (incl. Juliana's attempted murder of her
father during a parley at Breteuil) reads more like a 2003 soap-opera episode.
Note: the castle of Ivry thereafter stayed with the family of Ascelin
'Goel' - his son William 'Lupellus' held same, and was succeeded by his eldest
son Waleran as seigneur d'Ivry. The honor of Breteuil was given to Ralph de
Gael, Eustace's cousin [the son of Ralph de Gael and his wife Emma, sister of
William of Breteuil] - Amicia 'de Montfort', daughter of the younger Ralph,
carried Breteuil to her husband, Robert de Beaumont, Earl of Leicester (d. 5 Apr
1168).
Cheers,
John *
NOTES
[1] Hollister, Henry I [Yale English Monarchs series], pp. 253-4.
* John P. Ravilious
Cristopher Nash
> As to lines of descent from William fitz Osbern, you are correct in
> that the best-known lines are traced through his daughter Emma. However,
> his son William of Breteuil also has living descendants. I am not aware
> of any such descents through his son Eustace (husband of Henry I's bastard
> daughter Juliana), but his bastard daughter Isabel married Ascelin Goel,
> seigneur d'Ivry, and had by him three sons.
>
> The second son, William 'Lupellus', was seigneur d'Ivry as heir to his
> brother Robert. He joined the rebellion of his brother-in-law Waleran of
> Meulan, 1123 (Hollister, p. 293); he escaped from battle of
> Bourgtheroulde, 26 March 1124, and made peace with King Henry I. He
> evidently received grants of lands in England from King Henry I soon
> thereafter, including Elcombe Minster Lovel, co. Oxon and Docking,
> Norfolk. He is the ancestor of the Lovels of Titchmarsh, and this
> includes Maud Lovel, wife of William la Zouche, Lord Zouche of Haryngworth
> (d. 1351).
Hi John -- I wonder if this sits ok with you when compared with CP's
assertion that William Lovel (d. betw 1166 & 1170 and anc. of the
Lovels of Titchmarsh) is the son of Isabel and Ascelin Goel (VIII,
209-10 - which I stupidly claimed not to aver that Isabel was
illegitimate!)? I think in your actual 'tree' below you've got it
more-or-less as CP has it? Or have I gotta lot of Goel in Ascelin
such a question?
Cris
> Through this marriage, the descendants of William fitz Osbern include
> the Lords Zouche of Harringworth, Lords Deincourt, the Constables of
> Flamborough (post 1488), Jane Seymour and her son King Edward VI of
> England. Not to mention a number of 17th century emigrants to the
> colonies, including William Asfordby, Humphrey Davie, William Farrar,
> John Harleston and his sister Elizabeth (Harleston) Ball, and William
> Rodney.
>
> Hope this is of interest.
>
> John *
>
>
>
>
>______________________________
>
>
>1 William fitz Osbern
>----------------------------------------
>Death: 22 Feb 1071, Battle of Cassel[1]
>Occ: seigneur de Breteuil and Earl of Hereford
>Father: Osbern fitz Herfast (-1040)
>Mother: Emma of Ivry
>
>seigneur de Breteuil
>steward of Normandy, to Duke William I
>participant in Norman invasion of England, fought at Battle of Hastings
> (CP Vol XII, Appendix L[2]).
>Granted large estates in England; created Earl of Hereford.
>Betrothed to Richildis, countess of Hainaut and Flanders, 1071 and
> ventured to Flanders - slain at Battle of Cassel against Robert I
> (later Count of Flanders)[1]
>
>Spouse: Adeliza de Tosny
>Father: Roger de Tosny (-ca1040)
>Mother: Godehildis
>
>Children: William (-1103)
> Roger (->1088)
> Emma (->1096)
>
>
>1.1 William of Breteuil
>----------------------------------------
>Death: 1103[2]
>Occ: seigneur de Breteuil
>
>seigneur de Breteuil and d'Ivry (contested with Ascelin Goel)[2]
>
>Spouse: NN[2] [not married]
>
>Children: Eustace, m. Juliana (illeg. daughter of Henry I of England)
> Isabel
>
>
>1.1.1 Isabel de Breteuil[2]
>----------------------------------------
>
>illegitimate daughter according to Orderic (CP Vol VIII (Lovel), p. 210)[2]
>
>re: her husband:
>
>seigneur d'Ivry (contested) and of Breval[2]
>supporter of William the Conqueror in the Vexin, 1087
>opponent of William de Breteuil; besieged at Breval 1092 by William
> de Breteuil and Robert, Duke of Normandy (surrendered Ivry to
> William following capitulation)[2]
>
>Spouse: Ascelin Goel
>Death: bef 1120[2]
>Father: Robert d'Ivry (-<1115)
>Mother: Hildeburge (-1115)
>
>Children: Robert (-<1124)
> William (-<1171)
> Roger
>
>1.1.1.1 William 'Lupellus'[2]
>----------------------------------------
>Death: bef 1171[2]
>
>of Elcombe Minster Lovel, co. Oxon and Docking, Norfolk; and seigneur
> d'Ivry
>heir to his brother Robert
>joined rebellion of brother in law Waleran of Meulan, 1123 (Hollister,
> p. 293)[3]; escaped from battle of Bourgtheroulde, 26 March 1124, and
> made peace with King Henry I.
>Received grants of land from Henry I, after 1124, prob. including
> Docking, Norfolk[2]
>
>Spouse: Maud de Beaumont[2]
>Death: aft 1188[2]
>Father: Robert de Beaumont (ca1046-1118), Earl of Leicester and Count
> of Meulan
>Mother: Isabel of Vermandois (ca1081-<1147)
>
>Children: Waleran (-<1191)
> William (-<1214)
> Robert (-<1170)
> Elizabeth
> Helisent
>
>
>1.1.1.1.1 Waleran d'Ivry
>----------------------------------------
>Death: bef 1191[2]
>
>seigneur d'Ivry[2]
>
>Spouse: Reine[2]
>
>Children: Robert
> Goel
> Matilda
>
>
>1.1.1.1.2 William Lovel
>----------------------------------------
>Death: bef 1214[2]
>
>of Elcombe (Elleton) and Minster Lovel, co. Oxon and Docking, Norfolk
>2nd son; originally known as William d'Ivry
>
>a companion of Richard I on the Third Crusade, 1190
>Probably received gifts of land in Oxon. from father and brother, in
> addition to Docking, Norfolk[2]
>
>Spouse: Isabel[2]
>
>Children: John (>1193-<1252)
>
>
>1.1.1.1.2.1 John Lovel
>----------------------------------------
>Birth: aft 1193[2]
>Death: bef 23 Dec 1252[2]
>
>of Minster Lovell, co. Oxon and Docking, Norfolk
>as a minor, his wardship granted to Alan Basset[2]
>his lands declared forfeit prob. due to joining the baronial opposition
> to King John, 1216 and again, 1223; restored before 1224 (accompanied
> Henry III to siege of Bedford castle, which fell 15 Aug 1224)[2]
>
>Spouse: NN Basset[2]
>Father: Alan Basset (-1231), of Wycombe, co. Bucks.
>Mother: Aline de Gai
>Marr: bef Aug 1216[2]
>
>Children: John (<1222-<1287)
>
>
>1.1.1.1.2.1.1 John Lovel
>----------------------------------------
>Birth: bef 23 Dec 1222[2]
>Death: bef 27 Sep 1287[2]
>
>knight, of Minster Lovell , co. Oxon and Docking, Norfolk
>supporter of Henry III against de Montfort; given custody of castle
> of Northampton Mar 1264; captured at the Battle of Lewes, 12 May 1264[2]
>
>Spouse: Maud de Sydenham[2]
>Father: Sir William de Sydenham (-<1233), of Titchmarsh, co. Northants
>Mother: Christian de Sanford
>
>Children: Sir John (ca1255-<1310)
>
>
>1.1.1.1.2.1.1.1a Sir John Lovel*
>----------------------------------------
>Birth: ca 1255[2]
>Death: bef 1 Oct 1310[2]
>Occ: Lord Lovel[2]
>
>knight, of Titchmarsh, co. Northants, and Minster Lovell, co. Oxon
> and Docking, Norfolk
>fought in Gascony 1294, Wales 1295;
>summoned to Parliament from 6 Feb 1298/99 to 26 Aug 1307 by writ
> directed 'Johanni Lovel' and later 'Johanni Lovel de Tichmershe',
> whereby held to have become Lord Lovel[2]
>
>' Johan Lovel ',
>knight, serving with the army of King Edward I in Scotland
>fought at the Battle of Falkirk, 22 July 1298
> : his arms are recorded as
> ' Barry wavy of eight or and gules ' (Falkirk Roll H 13[4])
>
>' Johannes Lovel Dns de Dacking ', thirty-forth of the barons who
> sealed the Barons' Letter to the Pope, February 1301 (in response
> to the Scots letter to Boniface VIII in 1298, defying the claimed
> English superiority) following the Parliament at Lincoln, 13-20
> Jan 1300/1[5]
>
>Spouse: Isabel de Bois[6],[2]
>Father: Arnold du Bois (-1277), of Thorpe Arnold, co.Leics. and
> Weston-in-Arden, co. Warwick
>
>Children: Maud (<1280-<1346)
>
>Other Spouses Joan de Ros [2nd wife]
>
>
>1.1.1.1.2.1.1.1a.1 Maud Lovel
>----------------------------------------
>Death: bef 1346[2]
>Birth: bef 1 Oct 1280[2]
>
>heiress of her mother, 'to Docking under her mother's marriage
> settlement' -cf. CP Vol VIII (Lovel of Titchmarsh), p. 217 and 217n[2]
>manors in Leicester, Warwickshire and Northants. settled on her and
> her husband William la Zouche, and the heirs of their bodies, by her
> uncle William du Bois, 1301[2]
>
>Spouse: Sir William la Zouche, of Harryngworth
>Death: 11 Mar 1351[2]
>Birth: bef 21 Dec 1276[2]
>Father: Eudo la Zouche (-<1279)
>Mother: Millicent de Cantelou (-<1298)
>Marr: bef 15 Feb 1295[2]
>
>Children: Millicent (-1379), m. William Deincourt
> Eudo (ca1297-1326), Lord Zouche of Harryngworth
> William
> John
> Roger
> Thomas
> Edmund
> Isabel
> Thomasina
>
>
>1.1.1.1.2.1.1.1b Sir John Lovel* (See above)
>----------------------------------------
>
>Spouse: Joan de Ros[2] [2nd wife]
>
>Children: John (-1314)
>
>
>1.1.1.1.2.1.1.1b.1 John Lovel
>----------------------------------------
>Death: 24 Jun 1314, Battle of Bannockburn[2]
>Occ: Lord Lovel
>
>2nd Lord Lovel (of Titchmarsh)[2]
>
>Spouse: Maud Burnell
>Death: 1341[7]
>Father: Philip Burnell (-1294)
>Mother: Maud FitzAlan
>
>
>1.2 Roger of Breteuil
>----------------------------------------
>Death: aft 1088
>Occ: Earl of Hereford
>
>Earl of Hereford
>
>deprived of Earldom of Hereford after rebellion of 1075[1],[8]
>
>Children: Reginald (-ca1145)
>
>
>1.2.1 Reginald of Breteuil
>----------------------------------------
>Death: ca 1145[8]
>
>of Much Marcle, co. Hereford (de jure uxoris)[8]
>
>Spouse: Emmeline de Ballon
>Father: Hamelin de Ballon
>
>Children: William (-d.s.p. <1176), of Much Marcle
> Reginald (-1203), of Much Marcle
>
>
>1.3 Emma FitzOsbern[2]
>----------------------------------------
>Death: aft 1096, on first Crusade[2]
>
>re: her husband:
>
>Ralph de Gael, Lord of Gael [Brittany]
>lord of large estates in Norfok, also lands in Suffolk, Essex, Hertford
> at time of Domesday Book, 1086[2].
>Defeated Norse invasion of Norfolk 1069, created Earl of Norfolk
> and Suffolk by William I ca 1069. Joined rebellion against William
> (together with Waltheof of Northumberland) in 1075 [he fled to Denmark,
> returned with Danish fleet without effect].
>Forfeit of English estates and Earldom; returned to Brittany.
>Joined First Crusade with Robert of Normandy - present at siege at
> Nicaea, 1098 - believed to have died on the crusade[2]
>
>Spouse: Ralph de Gael
>Death: aft 1096, on first Crusade[2]
>Father: Ralph the Staller (-<1070)
>Marr: 1075, Exning, Cambridgeshire[2]
>
>Children: William (-<1120)
> Ralph
>
>
>1.3.1 Ralph de Gael
>----------------------------------------
>Occ: seigneur de Gael et Montfort[2]
>
>Lord of Gael
>successor to his brother William[2]
>lord of the honour of Breteuil, 1119 (resigned same to son-in-law,
> Earl of Leicester - CP Vol. VII -Leicester, p. 530n)[2]
>
>Children: Amicia (->1168)
>
>
>1.3.1.1 Amicia "de Montfort"
>----------------------------------------
>Death: aft 5 Apr 1168, Monastery of Nuneaton (d. a nun)[2],[9]
>Burial: Monastery of Nuneaton, co. Warwick[9]
>
>heiress of the honour of Breteuil (CP vol IX, p 574n)[2]
>
>re: her husband:
>
>Robert de Beaumont, twin son with brother Waleran[2]
>2nd Earl of Leicester (so styled from 1119) and Lord of Breteuil[2]
>
>founder of St. Augustine's, Leicester Abbey[9]
>
>confirmed gift of land (Combe in Smite) in co. Warwicks. by his father,
> ca. 1153-1167:
>' Confirmation from Robert son of earl Robert of Leicester to God and
> Saint Mary of Cumba and the monks of the Cistercian order there
> serving God, for the souls of his father and mother and ancestors
> and for the safety of his own body and soul and of his wife and
> children, of the gift of his father Robert to the said abbey of
> the land of Smithe which Richard de Camvilla held of his (Robert
> the younger's) fee.
>Witnesses: Richard abbot of Legr', Thurstan abbot of Gerad' [Garendon],
> Robert abbot of Pipwell', Ralph Basset, William de Hasting', William
> Burdet, Ernulf de Bosco, Ivo de Harwecurt, Richard Mall' and Ancarill'
> Mall' his brother, Ivo de Hallespad', Geoffrey 'dispensario'
> his brother and many others.
> - PRO, Shakespeare Birthplace Trust Records Office: Gregory of
> Stivichall [DR10/1 - DR10/467], Warwickshire: Combe alias Smite
> [ DR10/192 ][10]
>
>Spouse: Robert de Beaumont, Earl of Leicester
>Death: 5 Apr 1168, Leicester Abbey (d. a Canon Regular)[2],[9]
>Birth: 1104[2]
>Father: Robert de Beaumont (ca1046-1118)
>Mother: Isabel of Vermandois (ca1081-<1147)
>Marr: aft Nov 1120[2]
>
>Children: Robert (-1190), 3rd Earl of Leicester
> Hawise, m. William 'fitz Roy', Earl of Gloucester
> Margaret (?1125->1184), m. Ralph de Tony, of Flamstead, Hereford.
> Isabel, m. Simon II de St. Liz, Earl of Huntingdon & Northampton
>
>
>1. "William the Conqueror," David C. Douglas, Univ of California Press,
> 1964 (1st of English Monarchs series).
>2. "The Complete Peerage," G. E. Cokayne, 1910 -
> The Complete Peerage of England Scotland Ireland Great Britain and
> the United Kingdom.
>3. "Henry I," C. Warren Hollister, New Haven: Yale University Press,
> 2001, [English Monarchs Series].
>4. Brian Timms, "The Falkirk Roll," an occasional roll of arms of those
> having fought at the Battle of Falkirk, July 1298,
> http://www.briantimms.com/rolls/falkirkH.html
> This is an occasional roll, listing those present at the battle of
> Falkirk, which was fought on 22 July 1298,, when the forces of Edward
> I defeated a Scottish army under William Wallace., It is accepted that
> the roll was composed shortly afterwards., The original blazon is in
> the Anglo-Norman dialect, from a copy of the roll made by Robert
> Glover, c1585., The source of this blazon is Gerard J Brault, Rolls
> of Arms of Edward I, Society of Antiquaries, London, 1996.
>5. Brian Timms, "The Barons' Letter in reply to the Pope, February 1301,"
> http://www.briantimms.com/baronsletter/background.htm
> Seven earls and sixty five barons sealed the letter, which is now in
> the Public Record Office.
>6. "The Magna Carta Sureties, 1215," Frederick L. Weis, Th. D., Gen Pub
> Co., Baltimore, MD, 5th ed., 1997 (W. L. Sheppard Jr & David Faris).
>7. Rosie Bevan, "Re: The Kindred of Hugh le Despenser (revisited)," July
> 23, 2002, paper copy: library of John P. Ravilious, citations from
> Rosie Bevan : rbe...@paradise.net.nz.
>8. "English Baronies: A Study of Their Origin and Descent, 1086-1327," I.
> J. Sanders, Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1960.
>9. "The Baronage of England," William Dugdale, Norroy King of Arms, Tho.
> Newcomb [reprint Georg Verlag, New York], London, 1675 [reprint New
> York, 1977].
>10. "Public Record Office Archives," http://www.a2a.pro.gov.uk/
>
>
>
> * John P. Ravilious
--
The...@aol.com
Dear Cris,
Not sure what charge Eure Lovel-ing here....
As you say, CP says William Lovel / 'Lupellus' died between 1166 and
1170; for software's sake that's why I give the death date as 'before 1171' [see
my post, #1.1.1.1.]. His descendant, Sir John Lovel [# 1.1.1.1.2.1.1.1a] (d.
bef 1 Oct 1310) is shown as being the '1st' Lord Lovel (of Titchmarsh).
If my post was not too Breteuil let me know....
Cheers,
John