Wife of Hugh II de Gournay
Robert S Baxter
Hugh of France, Count of Vermandois, son of Henry I of France. She gives
Hugh II a second wife named Milisent whom I have seen named as Milisent de
Coucy. Hugh II and Beatrice are called parents of Hugh III de Gournay.
However, Settipani in his book on the Capetians, p 538 and following, shows
no daughter for Hugh of France named Beatrice. This certainly throws the
marriage of Hugh II to Beatrice and the parentage of Hugh III into doubt.
Is there an explanation for this conflict? Any comment from either
Settipani or Keats-Rohan?
Regards,
Bob
Sutliff
Kerrebrouck. Curiously I was working from this book on the family of Louis
VIII when your post arrived. It is a wonderfully documented resource and the
indexes are terrific. I wish other authors would take note of the Index of
Patronyms, Toponyms and Subjects.
HS
""Robert S Baxter"" <rsba...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:PDENJIDJFCOIMMNKHK...@bellsouth.net...
The...@aol.com
Hello Bob,
I did not recall a Beatrice as m. to Hugh de Gournay (I show as 'Hugh
IV'), who fl. ca. 1094-1180. I do have a Beatrix, daughter of Hugh of
Vermandois and his wife Ada/Adelaide - unmarried - the source for which was
probably Paul Theroff's genealogy files (via Gastel Lloyd's site). Hugh 'IV'
certainly could have had a first wife, given his (second ?) marriage to
Melisende/Millicent de Coucy. Their second son Hugh 'V' is held to have been
born ca. 1148.
The two primary problems with a daughter of Hugh 'le maisne', Count of
Vermandois being the mother of Hugh 'V' de Gournay:
1. The onomastic evidence points toward Melisende
as Hugh 'V's mother. His one known daughter,
the wife of (1) Amauri de Montfort, count of
Evreux, and (2) William de Cantelou/Cantilupe,
was Millicent de Gournay.
2. More importantly, Hugh 'le maisne' died on
the First Crusade at Heraclea, October 1101.
Given his departure from France (1100 as I
recall), it is possible he might have had a
daughter born in 1100/1101 during his absence
(although not posthumous). However, for a
daughter Beatrix or otherwise to have a
child in 1148, when she would have been 47/48
years of age at the youngest, is not tenable.
Following are the relevant generations of the Gournays, for your
reference.
Hope this helps.
John *
1 Hugh IV de Gournay
----------------------------------------
Birth: ca 1094[1]
Death: ca 1180[2]
Occ: seigneur de Gournay
Father: Gerard de Gournay (-ca1104)
Mother: Edith de Warenne
of Mapledurham, Oxon. and Caister, Norfolk;
founded a chapter of the nuns of Fontevrault at
Vallee de la Bataille, after 1130[2]
rebelled against Henry I, pardoned ca. 1119
'acted as one of Henry's lieutenants in an effort
to keep the peace in Normandy after the death of
the king.', 1135[3]
Spouse: Melisende de Coucy[1]
Father: Thomas de Coucy (-ca1131)
Mother: Melisende de Crecy
Children: Gerard (-ca1151)
Hugh V (ca1148-1214)
1.1 Gerard de Gournay
----------------------------------------
Death: ca 1151, d.v.p.[2]
1.2 Hugh V de Gournay
----------------------------------------
Birth: ca 1148[1]
Death: 25 Sep 1214[2]
of Mapledurham, Oxon., and Caister, Norfolk
assessed a fine of more than L~119 1180
(Pipe Roll xxix p. 19[2])
received a grant of Wendover, Bucks. and
Houghton, Beds. from King Stephen.
Companion of Richard I on the Third Crusade;
at the siege of Acre, 1190 (charter to the
abbey of Bec confirmed by Richard I, 1190)
opted for England at the pacification of Normandy,
1204 and had restoration of his lands in Norfolk
and elsewhere by decree of King John, 1206[2]
Sheriff of Bedfordshire and Buckinghamshire, 1214
resigned his lands to son Gerard, 1214[2]
Dugdale indicates he died in 1221 (6 Hen. 3),
'for then did the King direct his Precept to
William de Cantilupe, to restore unto Hugh
his Son (Girard being dead, as it seems) all
the Lands of his Inheritance, then in his
custody.'[4]
Spouse: Juliana de Dammartin[1]
Birth: ca 1165[1]
Father: Aubri II de Dammartin (-1200)
Mother: Maud of Clermont (->1200)
Children: Millicent (-1260)
Gerard (->1213)
Hugh VI (-1238)
Anselm
1.2.1a Millicent de Gournay*
----------------------------------------
Death: 1260[1]
she m. 1st Amauri de Montfort, Count of Evreux,
2ndly William de Cantelou[5]
Fine for her marriage by William de Cantelou
'senior', 2 Hen. III (Dugdale, citing Rot.
Pip. 2 H. 3)[4]
her maritagium included lands in Houghton,
co. Beds. (fine in 4 Hen. 3 paid by William
de Cantelou 'senior' for these lands)
Spouse: William de Cantelou[5]
Death: 22 Feb 1250[5]
Birth: ? 1185
Father: William de Cantelou (?1158-1239)
Mother: Mesceline de Braci
Marr: 1217[5],[4]
Children: Juliana (->1285)
William (-1254)
Agnes
Thomas (?1218-1282)
Nicholas (-<1266)
John (->1257)
Hugh (->1260)
Other Spouses Amauri de Montfort
1.2.1b Millicent de Gournay* (See above)
----------------------------------------
Spouse: Amauri de Montfort
Death: bef Nov 1213, d.s.p.[5]
Father: Amauri de Montfort (-1191)
Mother: Mabel of Gloucester
Marr: bef 1204[5]
Other Spouses William de Cantelou
1.2.2 Gerard de Gournay
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 1213
1.2.3a Hugh VI de Gournay*[5]
----------------------------------------
Death: 1238[2]
Burial: Langley Abbey, Norfolk[2]
of Mapledurham, Oxon.[5] and Caister, Norfolk
evidently joined the baronial cause against
King John (his lands transferred to William
de Cantelou, 1218); had restoration of same
ca. May 1222[2]
stated by Dugdale to have married 'Lucy,
the Daughter of Robert de Berkley' [Baronage,
p. 430][4] - Noted in CP and elsewhere as
actually being the widow of Robert de
Berkeley[5],[6]
Spouse: Matilda[2]
Other Spouses Lucy
1.2.3b Hugh VI de Gournay* (See above)
----------------------------------------
Spouse: Lucy
Death: 18 Jan 1234[5]
Marr: aft 13 May 1220[5]
Children: Juliana (-<1295)
Other Spouses Matilda
1.2.4 Anselm de Gournay
----------------------------------------
ancestor of Gournay of Beverstone, co. Gloucs. & c.[4]
1. "Stevens/Southworth Medieval Database," James Allen
Stevens,
Rootsweb, created 14 May 2000 [extracted 25 April 2001],
www.gendex.com/users/jast/D0026/G0000090.html.
2. "The Early History of Mapledurham," Alfred Hands Cooke,
M.A., Sc.D., Oxfordshire Record Society, Oxford:
Oxfordshire
Record Society, 1925, *orig. cite by Timothy Powys-Lybbe,
t...@powys.org [t...@southfrm.demon.co.uk].
3. "Henry I," C. Warren Hollister, New Haven: Yale University
Press, 2001, [English Monarchs Series].
4. "The Baronage of England," William Dugdale, Norroy King of
Arms, Tho. Newcomb [reprint Georg Verlag, New York],
London, 1675 [reprint New York, 1977].
5. "The Complete Peerage," G. E. Cokayne, 1910 -
[microprint, 1982 (Alan Sutton) ], The Complete Peerage
of England Scotland Ireland Great Britain and the
United Kingdom.
6. John Carmi Parsons, "More Angevin Bastards," Sept 7,
1998, GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com.
* John P. Ravilious
Robert S Baxter
John,
I have the same numbering that you have for Hugh IV(II) but was using the
numbering that Keats-Rohan was using. She considers Hugh I to be the
Domesday generation and ignores earlier generations.
Regards,
Bob
Sutliff
(pp.14-5) shows Matilda as spouse of Hugh VI and that she was mother of
Juliana (and another unnamed child).
Following the death of Hugh VI, Matilda is shown to have married Roger de
Clifford of Bridge Sollers, Herefordshire as her second husband.
Hope this helps,
HS
<The...@aol.com> wrote in message news:ad.2337159...@aol.com...
Douglas Richardson
I've pasted below a copy of the pertinent information on Hugh de
Gournay who married (lst) Beatrice de Vermandois and (2nd) Millicent
de Coucy. I trust this information answers your questions about this
man and his marriages. I've cited the sources which pertain to him.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
- - - - - - - - - - -
GOURNAY FAMILY
1. HUGH DE GOURNAY, of Caister, Norfolk, Mapledurham, co. Oxford,
seigneur of Gournay-en-Brie, Gaillefontaine, etc., son and heir, born
about 1091 (of full age in 1112). During his minority, he was raised
by King Henry I and his lands were administered by Drew de Monceaux,
his step-father. He married (lst) BEATRICE DE VERMANDOIS, daughter of
Hugh le Grand, Count of Vermandois and Valois, Count of Amiens and
Crepy, by Alix, daughter and heiress of Herbert IV, Count of
Vermandois and Valois. They had one son, Hugh (d.y.). He joined
Stephen, Count of Aumale, and others in 1118, in an attempt to place
William Clito, son of Robert, Duke of Normandy, on the throne. He
seised the castle of Plesssis and ravaged Norman terrritory. King
Henry I crushed the revolt at Noyon in 1119, after which he submitted
and was pardoned. In 1134 King Stephen granted him the manors of
Wendover, co. Buckingham and Houghton Regis, co. Bedford. Beatrice
was living 1144. In the period, 1147/55, he witnessed a charter for
his nephew, Roger de Mowbray. In 1147 he accompanied King Louis VII
of France to the Holy Land. This crusade was unsuccessful and
returned in 1149. He married (2nd) MILLICENT (or MELISENDE) DE COUCY,
widow of Aleaume Fitz Adam, Governor of the Citadel of Amiens,
daughter of Thomas de Coucy (or de Marle) (descendant of Charlemagne),
seigneur of Coucy, Marle, de la Fere and Boves, Count of Amiens, by
his 2nd wife, Melisende de Crecy, daughter and heiress of Guy de
Montlhery, Chatelain de la Ferte. They had two sons, Gerard and Hugh,
and one daughter, Aidieve (wife of Nicholas de Stuteville, of
Kimberley, Norfolk). He and his 2nd wife were benefactors of the
Abbey of Bec. They founded the Abbey of Gaillefontaine in the period,
1144/64. HUGH DE GOURNAY died in 1181, said to be “very
old.” His wife survived him.
References:
Daniel Gurney, Record of the House of Gournay (1848), pp. 22, 84-127,
754, 763, 779. Desc. Catalogue of Ancient Deeds 6 (1915): 279.
Bedfordshire Historical Record Society 7 (1922): 153-157; 19 (1937):
charts fol. pg. 99. Oxfordshire Record Society 7 (1925): 7-15. J. G.
Jenkins, Cartulary of Missenden Abbey 1 (1938): 164-165, 188; 3
(1962): 13, 15, 16. C. T. Clay, Early Yorkshire Charters 9 (1952):
42, 45-47. Paget (1957), 266: 1-4 (sub Gurnay). D. E. Greenway,
Charters of the Honour of Mowbray, 1107-1191 (pub. 1972), pg. 142
(charter dated 1147/55 issued by Roger de Mowbray witnessed by
“Hugone de Gurnai avunculo meo [my uncle]”). West Winter
(1987): XII.21.
rsba...@bellsouth.net ("Robert S Baxter") wrote in message news:<PDENJIDJFCOIMMNKHK...@bellsouth.net>...
Tim Powys-Lybbe
The...@aol.com wrote:
<snip>
> 1 Hugh IV de Gournay
> ----------------------------------------
> Birth: ca 1094[1]
> Death: ca 1180[2]
> Occ: seigneur de Gournay
> Father: Gerard de Gournay (-ca1104)
> Mother: Edith de Warenne
>
> of Mapledurham, Oxon.
I am not convinced from Cooke's History of Mapledurham that any Gournay
ever lived there. The Gournays indeed owned this manor, inheriting it
with the marriage to Edith de Warenne, but there is no report that
they lived there.
In referring to the Hugh de Gournay (whom he calls Hugh V) who married
Julia de Dammartin (whom he calls Dampmartin), Cooke writes, p. 11:
"In England, among other manors, Hugh V now held, beside Mapledurham,
Bledlowe in Bucks, some restored manors in Norfolk (Caister, Cantley,
and lands in Aylsham), also Houghton in Beds and Waltham in Lincs,
while in 1210 we find him paying a fine of 700 marks for Wendover."
<further snip, of a very good summary of the Gournay family>
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe t...@powys.org
For a patchwork of bygones: http://powys.org
The...@aol.com
Dear Tim,
Thanks for the added information re: Hugh ' V ' de Gournay and
Mapledurham. And, for the kind words.
Cheers,
John *
* John P. Ravilious