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Revisiting the marriages and children of Cornelius Beresford
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Bronwen Edwards
Nov 10, 2012, 3:31:34 PM11/10/12
to
I was contacted off-line to be told that my ancestor Christopher Beresford had finally been located as grandfather to Dinah Beresford, an ancestor of, among many others, Halle Berry. Dinah's brother was Edward, born 1693, my ancestor. The information was passed to me by Leo who had received it from Jose Verheecke. This supported the version of the pedigree that I had already concocted from family records and various on-line pedigrees mostly of questionable authority. When I posed the question and suggested the pedigree on this list a few years ago, Douglas Richardson kindly provided the information that he had on the line which included neither Christopher nor Dinah and I pulled my Newton Grange Beresford lines out of my genealogy. I wish I had kept them now.
My original thought was that only Dorothy Beresford who married Major John Brodnax and was ancestral to, among others, the presidential Bush family, was
the only child of Cornelius Beresford and his first wife, Elizabeth Selyiard. I posited that at least five surviving children were born to Cornelius and his second wife, Dorothy Petley, although CP, Richardson and others had cited only
four daughters. I suspected that my Christopher, c.1630-1691, was their elder brother but there seemed to have been no mention of him in the usual places.
At present, the pedigree on Leo's site shows Christopher as son of Cornelius and Dorothy Petley. With his wife, known only as Elizabeth, we find their son, Sir Tristram Beresford, d. 1741, and his wife, Anne Betley. They were the parents of my Edward Beresford, b. 1693, and his wife, Caroline, as well as Halle Berry's Dinah Beresford, b. 1710, and her husband, John Sims.
The daughter of Edward and Caroline was Christine Beresford, d. c. 1800, who married Hugh Webb of Culverhayes near Chard, Somerset, d. c. 1795. The child of Dinah Beresford and John Sims was William Sims who married Alice Twigg. The former line is mine, the latter is Halle Berry's. Both lines eventually went to North America, although my immigrant ancestor from this line, my grandfather Sidney Valdes Webb, only emigrated to North America in the early 20th Century.
Even though this issue barely skirts the outer edge of the list's time period and quickly goes off-topic altogether, perhaps someone on the list can add to the search with more information on exactly how Christopher's status as son of Cornelius and Dorothy Petley was ascertained. Do I have to dig through my old genealogy stuff, discarded when it was too hard to prove, and re-do the
Beresfords? Thanks in advance (and thanks to Leo and Jose), Bronwen
My original thought was that only Dorothy Beresford who married Major John Brodnax and was ancestral to, among others, the presidential Bush family, was
the only child of Cornelius Beresford and his first wife, Elizabeth Selyiard. I posited that at least five surviving children were born to Cornelius and his second wife, Dorothy Petley, although CP, Richardson and others had cited only
four daughters. I suspected that my Christopher, c.1630-1691, was their elder brother but there seemed to have been no mention of him in the usual places.
At present, the pedigree on Leo's site shows Christopher as son of Cornelius and Dorothy Petley. With his wife, known only as Elizabeth, we find their son, Sir Tristram Beresford, d. 1741, and his wife, Anne Betley. They were the parents of my Edward Beresford, b. 1693, and his wife, Caroline, as well as Halle Berry's Dinah Beresford, b. 1710, and her husband, John Sims.
The daughter of Edward and Caroline was Christine Beresford, d. c. 1800, who married Hugh Webb of Culverhayes near Chard, Somerset, d. c. 1795. The child of Dinah Beresford and John Sims was William Sims who married Alice Twigg. The former line is mine, the latter is Halle Berry's. Both lines eventually went to North America, although my immigrant ancestor from this line, my grandfather Sidney Valdes Webb, only emigrated to North America in the early 20th Century.
Even though this issue barely skirts the outer edge of the list's time period and quickly goes off-topic altogether, perhaps someone on the list can add to the search with more information on exactly how Christopher's status as son of Cornelius and Dorothy Petley was ascertained. Do I have to dig through my old genealogy stuff, discarded when it was too hard to prove, and re-do the
Beresfords? Thanks in advance (and thanks to Leo and Jose), Bronwen
Wjhonson
Nov 10, 2012, 3:54:22 PM11/10/12
to lostc...@yahoo.com, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
http://www.wargs.com/other/berry.html
Which states "unsourced"
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Which states "unsourced"
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com
with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of
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John Higgins
Nov 10, 2012, 6:34:35 PM11/10/12
to
Leo's database does indeed show the ancestry of Edward Beresford,
here:
http://www.genealogics.org/pedigree.php?personID=I00507193&tree=LEO&parentset=0&display=standard&generations=7
But no sources are given for any of the male line until you get back
to Cornelius, whose wife and son are identified but not sourced. I'd
be interested to see what sources there are for the entire line
forward from Cornelius. As I posted in Feb 2011, the line doesn't
appear in a major compilation of the Beresfords which I cited then.
Bronwen Edwards
Nov 10, 2012, 8:47:10 PM11/10/12
to lostc...@yahoo.com, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
On Saturday, November 10, 2012 12:54:27 PM UTC-8, wjhonson wrote:
> http://www.wargs.com/other/berry.html
>
>
>
> Which states "unsourced"
Yes. However, he found it "somewhere". And probably not from my grandfather, uncle or living cousin who were my initial source. Their old hand-drawn pedigrees are older than the internet and came from England with some family member. They also included well-documented Campbell, Barrett and Dick lines which are proven. Many of the cousins who remained in England have hyphenated surnames "Beresford-Webb". All of this circumstantial evidence has existed for many years, but with the ongoing problem of linking my Christopher to Cornelius. That is why I removed the Beresfords from Cornelius backward in time from my own files. But now there appears to have been a breakthrough and I am trying to understand exactly what it is. Hence, my question in my post. Bronwen
> http://www.wargs.com/other/berry.html
>
>
>
> Which states "unsourced"
Bronwen Edwards
Nov 10, 2012, 8:50:49 PM11/10/12
to
On Saturday, November 10, 2012 3:34:35 PM UTC-8, John Higgins wrote:
>
>
>
> I'm confused....
>
>
>
> Leo's database does indeed show the ancestry of Edward Beresford,
>
> here:
>
> http://www.genealogics.org/pedigree.php?personID=I00507193&tree=LEO&parentset=0&display=standard&generations=7
>
>
>
> But no sources are given for any of the male line until you get back
>
> to Cornelius, whose wife and son are identified but not sourced. I'd
>
> be interested to see what sources there are for the entire line
>
> forward from Cornelius. As I posted in Feb 2011, the line doesn't
>
> appear in a major compilation of the Beresfords which I cited then.
Exactly. That's why I'm trying to track down *who-found-what* that was
>
>
>
> I'm confused....
>
>
>
> Leo's database does indeed show the ancestry of Edward Beresford,
>
> here:
>
> http://www.genealogics.org/pedigree.php?personID=I00507193&tree=LEO&parentset=0&display=standard&generations=7
>
>
>
> But no sources are given for any of the male line until you get back
>
> to Cornelius, whose wife and son are identified but not sourced. I'd
>
> be interested to see what sources there are for the entire line
>
> forward from Cornelius. As I posted in Feb 2011, the line doesn't
>
> appear in a major compilation of the Beresfords which I cited then.
good enough to be included in Leo's data base.
Wjhonson
Nov 10, 2012, 8:51:12 PM11/10/12
to lostc...@yahoo.com, soc.genealo...@googlegroups.com, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
"Somewhere" isn't a source.
The idea that Halle Berry comes from this line is unsourced.
Only sourced in various WorldConnect pages, as WAR is stating there.
The idea that Halle Berry comes from this line is unsourced.
Only sourced in various WorldConnect pages, as WAR is stating there.
Message has been deleted
hsjohns...@yahoo.com
May 5, 2013, 6:51:53 PM5/5/13
to
Message has been deleted
Message has been deleted
hsjohns...@yahoo.com
May 5, 2013, 7:57:29 PM5/5/13
to
The Christopher Beresford (1630 - 1691) who married Elizabeth (maiden name not given) included on Leo's great site appears to be Christopher Beresford
(b c1628), Lord of the Manor of Fulbeck, son of William Beresford of Leadenham and Grays Inn and his wife Winifred Lascelles, daughter of Sir Brian Lascelles of Gateford, co. Notts, who married first, Elizabeth Cartwright, daughter of William Cartwright of Ossington. They had the following children: William who married Margaret, Anne, Peregine and Christopher(twins who died in infancy), George, Christopher who married Mary Morgan, Edward (wife unknown)named a son Christopher, Winnefred, Christianne, Elizabeth, Mary, Grace and Frances. Christopher (1630-1691) married 2nd Elizabeth, daughter of Sir W. Welby. No children are given for this marriage. There are several individuals named Christopher and Edward among the descendants of William Beresford of Leadenham and Grays Inn and his wife Winifred Lascelles. Source: Beresford, D. K. and Beresford, B. K. (2011). The House of Beresford, Volume 1, 1227-1727 - The First Five Hundred Years, pp. 142,143,150, 151, published by The Beresford Family Society (UK).
John Higgins
May 6, 2013, 6:03:04 PM5/6/13
to
The website for the Beresford Family Society doesn't seem to be
functioning.
http://www.beresfordfamilysociety.org.uk/
Bronwen Edwards
May 6, 2013, 7:05:50 PM5/6/13
to
On Sunday, May 5, 2013 4:57:29 PM UTC-7, hsjohns...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
>
> The Christopher Beresford (1630 - 1691) who married Elizabeth (maiden name not given) included on Leo's great site appears to be Christopher Beresford
>
> (b c1628), Lord of the Manor of Fulbeck, son of William Beresford of Leadenham and Grays Inn and his wife Winifred Lascelles, daughter of Sir Brian Lascelles of Gateford, co. Notts, who married first, Elizabeth Cartwright, daughter of William Cartwright of Ossington. They had the following children: William who married Margaret, Anne, Peregine and Christopher(twins who died in infancy), George, Christopher who married Mary Morgan, Edward (wife unknown)named a son Christopher, Winnefred, Christianne, Elizabeth, Mary, Grace and Frances. Christopher (1630-1691) married 2nd Elizabeth, daughter of Sir W. Welby. No children are given for this marriage. There are several individuals named Christopher and Edward among the descendants of William Beresford of Leadenham and Grays Inn and his wife Winifred Lascelles. Source: Beresford, D. K. and Beresford, B. K. (2011). The House of Beresford, Volume 1, 1227-1727 - The First Five Hundred Years, pp. 142,143,150, 151, published by The Beresford Family Society (UK).
Thank you for the lead to the Fulbeck line. I spent several hours searching it along with the Lascelles and found many Christophers but nothing that appeared to lead toward Christine who married Hugh Webb, albeit the sources mainly stopped before their time (mid to late 1700s). I saw several possibilities if they can be followed to more recent times and I will attempt to do so.
>
>
> The Christopher Beresford (1630 - 1691) who married Elizabeth (maiden name not given) included on Leo's great site appears to be Christopher Beresford
>
> (b c1628), Lord of the Manor of Fulbeck, son of William Beresford of Leadenham and Grays Inn and his wife Winifred Lascelles, daughter of Sir Brian Lascelles of Gateford, co. Notts, who married first, Elizabeth Cartwright, daughter of William Cartwright of Ossington. They had the following children: William who married Margaret, Anne, Peregine and Christopher(twins who died in infancy), George, Christopher who married Mary Morgan, Edward (wife unknown)named a son Christopher, Winnefred, Christianne, Elizabeth, Mary, Grace and Frances. Christopher (1630-1691) married 2nd Elizabeth, daughter of Sir W. Welby. No children are given for this marriage. There are several individuals named Christopher and Edward among the descendants of William Beresford of Leadenham and Grays Inn and his wife Winifred Lascelles. Source: Beresford, D. K. and Beresford, B. K. (2011). The House of Beresford, Volume 1, 1227-1727 - The First Five Hundred Years, pp. 142,143,150, 151, published by The Beresford Family Society (UK).
At one point I almost laid my money down to join the Beresford Society but decided there were too many questions about my Beresford link. It is true, however, that my Webbs have among them some Beresford-Webbs and that this goes back a number of generations. Thank you for the leads, Bronwen
Bronwen Edwards
May 6, 2013, 7:18:20 PM5/6/13
to
On Monday, May 6, 2013 3:03:04 PM UTC-7, John Higgins wrote:
> How can a copy of this new book (2011) on the Beresfords be located?
>
> The website for the Beresford Family Society doesn't seem to be
>
> functioning.
>
> http://www.beresfordfamilysociety.org.uk/
I just tried to above link and it was working. The book you mention is only one of several, plus there is a magazine that is available. The prices are reasonable.
> How can a copy of this new book (2011) on the Beresfords be located?
>
> The website for the Beresford Family Society doesn't seem to be
>
> functioning.
>
> http://www.beresfordfamilysociety.org.uk/
hsjohns...@yahoo.com
May 6, 2013, 10:17:52 PM5/6/13
to
On Monday, May 6, 2013 7:18:20 PM UTC-4, Bronwen Edwards wrote:
> On Monday, May 6, 2013 3:03:04 PM UTC-7, John Higgins wrote:
>
> > How can a copy of this new book (2011) on the Beresfords be located?
>
> >
>
> > The website for the Beresford Family Society doesn't seem to be
>
> >
>
> > functioning.
>
I'd be happy to look up any of the information for you. I have the book here.
> On Monday, May 6, 2013 3:03:04 PM UTC-7, John Higgins wrote:
>
> > How can a copy of this new book (2011) on the Beresfords be located?
>
> >
>
> > The website for the Beresford Family Society doesn't seem to be
>
> >
>
> > functioning.
>
Volume 2 is about to be published which brings it down to the present. It is at the printers now and will be available in May.
hsjohns...@yahoo.com
May 6, 2013, 10:19:08 PM5/6/13
to
On Monday, May 6, 2013 7:18:20 PM UTC-4, Bronwen Edwards wrote:
hsjohns...@yahoo.com
May 6, 2013, 10:22:19 PM5/6/13
to
Volume 2 is at the printer and will bring the family lines down to the present time. It should be available later this month.
John Higgins
May 7, 2013, 12:13:53 AM5/7/13
to
same result I've had for the past 24 hours - various messages,
depending on the browser, saying that the website is unavailable. Not
a very good sign, I'd say....
hsjohns...@yahoo.com
May 7, 2013, 7:09:22 AM5/7/13
to
On Tuesday, May 7, 2013 12:13:53 AM UTC-4, John Higgins wrote:
> On May 6, 7:19 pm, hsjohnson30...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> > On Monday, May 6, 2013 7:18:20 PM UTC-4, Bronwen Edwards wrote:
>
> > > On Monday, May 6, 2013 3:03:04 PM UTC-7, John Higgins wrote:
>
> >
>
> > > > How can a copy of this new book (2011) on the Beresfords be located?
>
> >
> I just tried the link that you typed into this post and it opened up immediately using Internet Explorer..Here is the page for the book:
> On May 6, 7:19 pm, hsjohnson30...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> > On Monday, May 6, 2013 7:18:20 PM UTC-4, Bronwen Edwards wrote:
>
> > > On Monday, May 6, 2013 3:03:04 PM UTC-7, John Higgins wrote:
>
> >
>
> > > > How can a copy of this new book (2011) on the Beresfords be located?
>
> >
The House of Beresford cover The HOUSE OF BERESFORD, Volume 1: The first five hundred years, 1227-1727. The latest Society publication with a comprehensive and updated history of the Senior line at Beresford Hall 1227-1600 and the lines of all Thomas and Agnes’s dependants from the 15th Century through to 1727.
◾Hardback with gold blocked cover
◾Running to 245 pages, B5 size, with 17 page index
◾30 Pedigree charts
Author: Douglas K Beresford & Brian K Beresford. Printed 2011
John Higgins
May 7, 2013, 6:04:15 PM5/7/13
to
computers with different internet connections, and at widely varying
times of the day, from early morning through late evening. No success
at all. If this is is the only way of finding out about this book (and
its upcoming second volume), I guess I'll have to pass for now. Maybe
someone can contact to let them know that their site does not appear
to be universally accessible.
Bronwen Edwards
May 7, 2013, 8:14:28 PM5/7/13
to
One thing that the various sources (mostly Visitations etc.) say about William Beresford of Leadenham and Grays Inn who married Winifred Laschelles and who is the father of Christopher, Lord of the Manor of Fulbeck, is that he (William) was a son of Thomas Beresford of Newton Grange (d. 1473) and Agnes Hassell of Arcluyd (d. 1467; if that is the case, my Beresfords are at least 3rd cousins to the Michael who married, among others, Rose Knyvett. It also seems that Fulbeck was sold in 1653 to Sir Francis Fane by William of Leadenham, posing the question as to whether or not Christopher was Lord of that Manor. I have not finished my searching and will list the various sources and what they said in a later post. Bronwen
hsjohns...@yahoo.com
May 7, 2013, 9:34:12 PM5/7/13
to
On Tuesday, May 7, 2013 6:04:15 PM UTC-4, John Higgins wrote:
> On May 7, 4:09 am, hsjohnson30...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> > On Tuesday, May 7, 2013 12:13:53 AM UTC-4, John Higgins wrote:
>
> > > On May 6, 7:19 pm, hsjohnson30...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> >
>
> > > > On Monday, May 6, 2013 7:18:20 PM UTC-4, Bronwen Edwards wrote:
> I'm a long time member of the Beresford Family Society and will email Peter to advise him that some individuals are having difficulty accessing the website.
> On May 7, 4:09 am, hsjohnson30...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> > On Tuesday, May 7, 2013 12:13:53 AM UTC-4, John Higgins wrote:
>
> > > On May 6, 7:19 pm, hsjohnson30...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> >
>
> > > > On Monday, May 6, 2013 7:18:20 PM UTC-4, Bronwen Edwards wrote:
Bronwen Edwards
May 7, 2013, 10:16:55 PM5/7/13
to
There are way too many Christopher Beresfords (and to think I couldn't find more than one or two recently). A Christopher Beresford of Long Ledenham, Lincs., d. 12 Oct 1590, who was married to Bridget Needham; they had five sons, including the William who married Winifred Lascelles (this according to Collins Peerage, Vol. 8, 1812. That William was son of Thomas Beresford & Agnes Hassell appears in Kimber's Peerage of Ireland, Vol. 1, 1768. There appear, also, to have been two closely related Christophers in the mid-17th century: Christopher of Fulbeck and Christopher of Long Denham in A Calendar of the Docquets of the Lord Keeper Coventry, 1625-1640, vols. 36-37, p. 698.
There were a number of bits about Christopher of Fulbeck. Fulbeck was used as a place to billet as many as 7000 men because it sat exactly between the Parliamentarian garrison of Lincoln & the Royalists at Newark. He received 31s.6d. for this and the estate was "laid waste from 1643 to 1646" according to The Gentry in England and Wales, 1500-1700, by Felicity Heal & Clive Holmes, p. 151, 1994.
William Beresford was admitted to Cambridge 27 Jan 1691-2, suggesting that this may have been Christopher's son, William. That from Lincolnshire Pedigrees: Supplement, p 1338.
Christopher Beresford of Fulbeck married Jane Rigges, mar. lic. 9 Sep 1614. Her sister, Catherine Rigges, married William Beresford of Minting Park, called brother of Christopher, sometime after 7 Apr 1601 when she was still a minor.
These are from Lincolnshire Pedigrees, Vol. 52, 1904.
Mentions of Christopher of Fulbeck were also found in AtoA but did not really add to the information except to demonstrate the various kinds of things that an esq. would do regarding land. One reference is to Christopher Beresford "the elder" and "the younger" in regard to conveyance of Fulbert to Sir Francis Fane. The document is undated, but the date 1652 is mentioned. (I FANE 11/46).
Which all leads to the obvious and perpetual problem: where is MY Christopher?
Bronwen
There were a number of bits about Christopher of Fulbeck. Fulbeck was used as a place to billet as many as 7000 men because it sat exactly between the Parliamentarian garrison of Lincoln & the Royalists at Newark. He received 31s.6d. for this and the estate was "laid waste from 1643 to 1646" according to The Gentry in England and Wales, 1500-1700, by Felicity Heal & Clive Holmes, p. 151, 1994.
William Beresford was admitted to Cambridge 27 Jan 1691-2, suggesting that this may have been Christopher's son, William. That from Lincolnshire Pedigrees: Supplement, p 1338.
Christopher Beresford of Fulbeck married Jane Rigges, mar. lic. 9 Sep 1614. Her sister, Catherine Rigges, married William Beresford of Minting Park, called brother of Christopher, sometime after 7 Apr 1601 when she was still a minor.
These are from Lincolnshire Pedigrees, Vol. 52, 1904.
Mentions of Christopher of Fulbeck were also found in AtoA but did not really add to the information except to demonstrate the various kinds of things that an esq. would do regarding land. One reference is to Christopher Beresford "the elder" and "the younger" in regard to conveyance of Fulbert to Sir Francis Fane. The document is undated, but the date 1652 is mentioned. (I FANE 11/46).
Which all leads to the obvious and perpetual problem: where is MY Christopher?
Bronwen
John H
May 7, 2013, 10:31:49 PM5/7/13
to
The Beresford link works fast and OK for me.
> http://www.beresfordfamilysociety.org.uk <
1200 hrs Australian central time 8th may 2013
Have another try!
John H
"John Higgins" <jhigg...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:a768bd73-e8a9-42cd...@oj8g2000pbb.googlegroups.com...
> ?Running to 245 pages, B5 size, with 17 page index
> ?30 Pedigree charts
> http://www.beresfordfamilysociety.org.uk <
1200 hrs Australian central time 8th may 2013
Have another try!
John H
"John Higgins" <jhigg...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:a768bd73-e8a9-42cd...@oj8g2000pbb.googlegroups.com...
On May 7, 4:09 am, hsjohnson30...@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 7, 2013 12:13:53 AM UTC-4, John Higgins wrote:
> > On May 6, 7:19 pm, hsjohnson30...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> > > On Monday, May 6, 2013 7:18:20 PM UTC-4, Bronwen Edwards wrote:
>
> > > > On Monday, May 6, 2013 3:03:04 PM UTC-7, John Higgins wrote:
>
> > > > > How can a copy of this new book (2011) on the Beresfords be
> > > > > located?
>
> > I just tried the link that you typed into this post and it opened up
> > immediately using Internet Explorer..Here is the page for the book:
>
> The House of Beresford cover The HOUSE OF BERESFORD, Volume 1: The first
> five hundred years, 1227-1727. The latest Society publication with a
> comprehensive and updated history of the Senior line at Beresford Hall
> 1227-1600 and the lines of all Thomas and Agnes's dependants from the 15th
> Century through to 1727.
> ?Hardback with gold blocked cover
> On Tuesday, May 7, 2013 12:13:53 AM UTC-4, John Higgins wrote:
> > On May 6, 7:19 pm, hsjohnson30...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> > > On Monday, May 6, 2013 7:18:20 PM UTC-4, Bronwen Edwards wrote:
>
> > > > On Monday, May 6, 2013 3:03:04 PM UTC-7, John Higgins wrote:
>
> > > > > How can a copy of this new book (2011) on the Beresfords be
> > > > > located?
>
> > I just tried the link that you typed into this post and it opened up
> > immediately using Internet Explorer..Here is the page for the book:
>
> The House of Beresford cover The HOUSE OF BERESFORD, Volume 1: The first
> five hundred years, 1227-1727. The latest Society publication with a
> comprehensive and updated history of the Senior line at Beresford Hall
> 1227-1600 and the lines of all Thomas and Agnes's dependants from the 15th
> Century through to 1727.
> ?Running to 245 pages, B5 size, with 17 page index
> ?30 Pedigree charts
Bronwen Edwards
May 15, 2013, 8:13:34 PM5/15/13
to
Update but no answers: it is not at all clear that my Christopher Beresford was the one of Fulbeck.
The search for Beresford of Ledenham (or Long Ledenham) was more productive and leads to the line mentioned in the posting from H.S. Johns. The problem here is that there is disagreement regarding the grandparents of William who married Winifred Lascelles. There is agreement that William's parents were Christopher Beresford of Long Ledenham who died 12 Oct 1590 and Bridget Neafham (probably Needham). However, this man is given two sets of parents. One set (and naturally I can't find the notes on this giving where I found it!) shows a William Beresford and Alice Parker, daughter of Thomas Parker. The other set puts him into the Newton Grange line by making him son of Thomas Beresford and Agnes Hassell (Collins Peerage; Kimber's Peerage of Ireland). However, when I look for him in the pedigrees for Newton Grange, he does not show up except in those two sources as their son. If true, this would, of course, place him much before Cornelius Beresford.
Finally there is the list of Beresfords that include my Christopher as shown in the posting in this group. Here we find three distinct Christophers who are siblings. The first can be counted out right away, as he died in infancy. This leaves two more, both of whom grew to adulthood and married. The elder of the two, if this is the correct birth order, married Mary Morgan; the youngest child of the entire group of 14 siblings is the other Christopher, born 1630, who married "Elizabeth" and Elizabeth Welby. Why would two healthy living sons be given the same name? Do we know for certain that they are not the same person possibly with three marriages? And so I continue searching with nose to the ground...this seems like a great lead (I have wanted to see that Beresford book ever since it came out and now, I gather, there is a new one) but things still don't quite make sense to me. Bronwen
The search for Beresford of Ledenham (or Long Ledenham) was more productive and leads to the line mentioned in the posting from H.S. Johns. The problem here is that there is disagreement regarding the grandparents of William who married Winifred Lascelles. There is agreement that William's parents were Christopher Beresford of Long Ledenham who died 12 Oct 1590 and Bridget Neafham (probably Needham). However, this man is given two sets of parents. One set (and naturally I can't find the notes on this giving where I found it!) shows a William Beresford and Alice Parker, daughter of Thomas Parker. The other set puts him into the Newton Grange line by making him son of Thomas Beresford and Agnes Hassell (Collins Peerage; Kimber's Peerage of Ireland). However, when I look for him in the pedigrees for Newton Grange, he does not show up except in those two sources as their son. If true, this would, of course, place him much before Cornelius Beresford.
Finally there is the list of Beresfords that include my Christopher as shown in the posting in this group. Here we find three distinct Christophers who are siblings. The first can be counted out right away, as he died in infancy. This leaves two more, both of whom grew to adulthood and married. The elder of the two, if this is the correct birth order, married Mary Morgan; the youngest child of the entire group of 14 siblings is the other Christopher, born 1630, who married "Elizabeth" and Elizabeth Welby. Why would two healthy living sons be given the same name? Do we know for certain that they are not the same person possibly with three marriages? And so I continue searching with nose to the ground...this seems like a great lead (I have wanted to see that Beresford book ever since it came out and now, I gather, there is a new one) but things still don't quite make sense to me. Bronwen
Wjhonson
May 15, 2013, 8:18:30 PM5/15/13
to lostc...@yahoo.com, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Can you, with a reliable source, identify this Elizabeth Welby ?
-----Original Message-----
From: Bronwen Edwards <lostc...@yahoo.com>
To: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wed, May 15, 2013 5:15 pm
Subject: Re: Revisiting the marriages and children of Cornelius Beresford
-----Original Message-----
From: Bronwen Edwards <lostc...@yahoo.com>
To: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wed, May 15, 2013 5:15 pm
Subject: Re: Revisiting the marriages and children of Cornelius Beresford
Bronwen Edwards
May 15, 2013, 8:37:09 PM5/15/13
to
On Wednesday, May 15, 2013 5:18:30 PM UTC-7, wjhonson wrote:
> Can you, with a reliable source, identify this Elizabeth Welby ?
No. But if you review the past posts in this thread, you will see that she was mentioned as the 2nd wife of Christopher Beresford by H.S. Johns who has the information on her. Assuming that there were two Elizabeths who married Christopher Beresford, the one without a surname is said to be my ancestor. Suggest you put the question to H.S. Johns.
> Can you, with a reliable source, identify this Elizabeth Welby ?
hsjohns...@yahoo.com
May 16, 2013, 7:53:43 AM5/16/13
to
There are several references for Christopher Beresford in the book that I referenced. I will look up each of those for you and post that information here, along with the reference page number.
Everyone, I think, listed in the book is descended from Thomas Beresford of Newton Grange and his wife Agnes Hassell. They had 21 children, though not all of them lived to produce children and not everyone of the lines continued to this day.
It is believed that everyone living today who bears the name Beresford descends from Thomas and Agnes Hassell through one of the children.
I'm happy to help if I can.
HSJ
Bronwen Edwards
May 16, 2013, 12:18:15 PM5/16/13
to
On Thursday, May 16, 2013 4:53:43 AM UTC-7, hsjohns...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
>
> Bronwen,
>
>
>
> There are several references for Christopher Beresford in the book that I referenced. I will look up each of those for you and post that information here, along with the reference page number.
>
>
>
> Everyone, I think, listed in the book is descended from Thomas Beresford of Newton Grange and his wife Agnes Hassell. They had 21 children, though not all of them lived to produce children and not everyone of the lines continued to this day.
>
>
>
> It is believed that everyone living today who bears the name Beresford descends from Thomas and Agnes Hassell through one of the children.
>
>
>
> I'm happy to help if I can.
>
>
>
> HSJ
Thank you; I would appreciate that greatly. Will you be getting the second volume of the book when it is ready? I believe that one is supposed to come closer to the present time. Thanks again, Bronwen
>
>
> Bronwen,
>
>
>
> There are several references for Christopher Beresford in the book that I referenced. I will look up each of those for you and post that information here, along with the reference page number.
>
>
>
> Everyone, I think, listed in the book is descended from Thomas Beresford of Newton Grange and his wife Agnes Hassell. They had 21 children, though not all of them lived to produce children and not everyone of the lines continued to this day.
>
>
>
> It is believed that everyone living today who bears the name Beresford descends from Thomas and Agnes Hassell through one of the children.
>
>
>
> I'm happy to help if I can.
>
>
>
> HSJ
hsjohns...@yahoo.com
May 16, 2013, 4:28:35 PM5/16/13
to
Yes, I've ordered the second book. I understand that it is at the printers now.
HSJ
hsjohns...@yahoo.com
May 16, 2013, 4:30:18 PM5/16/13
to
Yes, I have ordered the second volume. I understand that it is at the printers now.
HSJ
hsjohns...@yahoo.com
May 17, 2013, 7:17:04 PM5/17/13
to
I have completed more research for you in the Beresford book that I have already cited. Two of Thomas Beresford and Agnes Hassel's sons have the combination of names (William, Christopher and Edward) in them.
The first is Roger Beresford (1447-1520_ who married Agnes Bradmore of Bradmore. Among their children was a son Christopher (c1474 - 1534) who married Elizabeth ( ) c 1505(1485-1550. Among their children was a son William born c 1511. His wife's name is not given. It is known that he had issue, but no details are given.
Source: Beresford D.K. and Beresford B. K. (2011). The House of Beresford vol 1 1227 - 1727 - The First Five Hundred Years, published by the Beresford Family Society (UK), p. 59.
The second is William Beresford of Long Ledenham c 1460, married Alice Parker, daughter of Thomas Parkier. Among their children was:
a son Dennis, b. c1479 who married Margaret Shallcross c 1500. Among their children was a son Edward, b. c1500 in Barnborough, Yorks who married Joan Basset/Spratt, dau of Edward Cressacre c1535. Among their children were: 1) Edward b. c1540 who married Joyce Sherrard. No additional information is given about Edward and Joyce. 2)Dennis (1541-1605) of Grays Inn who married first Joyce Needham and second Jane Collis who bore him a son Edward (c1562-1599), and 3)Christopher (1542-1590)of Ledenham Feodary, who married Bridget Needham of Needham nee Ottowell of Thornsett and Fulbeck Lincolnshire.
Among the children of Christopher Beresford and Bridget Needham were:
1)Rev. John, Rector of Scopwick who married Judith Manby who bore him a son Christopher (b. 31 Mar 1592 and d 1691), married (1) Jane Rigg who bore him a son Christopher of Grays Inn (1618), who married a Skipworth, who bore him a son Christopher and a son Edward; and (2) Ann, who bore him a son Edward and five more, and a son William who married Catherine who bore him a son William, Chamberlain of Stamford Corporation, who married Maria, who bore him a son Benjamin (1697) - 1768), Twice Maor of Stamford, who married Frances Denton who bore him a son Benjamin (d1734) and a son Christopher d.s.p.; 2)William b. c 1565 who married Winifred Lascalles), 3) the Rev. Francis (c1566-1601), Vicar of Rowston and Fulbeck, who married Prudence Thornhill who bore him a son Edward (c1591). Source: Beresford D.K. and Beresford B. K. (2011). The House of Beresford vol 1 1227 - 1727 - The First Five Hundred Years, published by the Beresford Family Society (UK), pp. 142, 143, 146, 147.
There are no other Christopher Beresfords in the book. Volume 2 is at the printer now. I have ordered a copy and would be happy check it for Christopher Beresford as well once it arrives.
HSJ
I hope this is helpful.
Bronwen Edwards
May 17, 2013, 11:16:54 PM5/17/13
to
Thank you again for your attention to my questions. I sketchily charted the lines you mention from the first book and placed my purported line with them. Most of the Christophers seem to be too early to have great-grandchildren who died around 1800. I did, however, find myself returning to William and Winifred Laschelles more than once, although your post only mentioned them as a couple and did not mention children. Christopher, brother of Benjamin who died in 1734, was probably at the right time but you indicate that he dsp. I very much look forward to the publication of the second book, now at press, to see what developed from all of these lines. The only part of my line that I am reasonably certain of is the marriage of Hugh Webb and Christine Beresford; my grandfather was a Webb, great-grandson of this Hugh, and the record is within recently-living memory. Hugh & Christine had a son, Samuel Webb, who had a son, William Locock Webb, who had a son, Sidney Valdes Webb, who had a daughter, Elizabeth Clair Webb, my mother. There are people on both sides of the Atlantic trying to track down the authentic line and exactly how we ended up with so many "Beresford-Webbs". I appreciate your assistance and look forward to news of the second book. If I can scrape together the money, I intend to buy both volumes. Thank you again, Bronwen
Bronwen Edwards
May 17, 2013, 11:20:41 PM5/17/13
to
Bronwen Edwards
May 18, 2013, 12:20:12 AM5/18/13
to
On Friday, May 17, 2013 8:20:41 PM UTC-7, Bronwen Edwards wrote:
Sorry - somehow accidentally sent this old post but didn't mean to. Bronwen
Sorry - somehow accidentally sent this old post but didn't mean to. Bronwen
Wjhonson
May 18, 2013, 1:42:57 AM5/18/13
to hsjohns...@yahoo.com, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Christopher Beresford of Leadenham
who married Bridget Needham
had as his *first* son William
who married Winnifred Lascelles
William, inherited Leadenham as the eldest son
although he didn't hold it long, dying only six
years after his father Christopher
The property then descended to Williams' eldest
son Christopher, this Chris was living in 1641
and married as his second wife and her second
husband Elizebeth Welby of Stamford
widow of Beville Wimberly
-----Original Message-----
From: hsjohnson30222 <hsjohns...@yahoo.com>
To: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Fri, May 17, 2013 4:20 pm
Subject: Re: Revisiting the marriages and children of Cornelius Beresford
who married Bridget Needham
had as his *first* son William
who married Winnifred Lascelles
William, inherited Leadenham as the eldest son
although he didn't hold it long, dying only six
years after his father Christopher
The property then descended to Williams' eldest
son Christopher, this Chris was living in 1641
and married as his second wife and her second
husband Elizebeth Welby of Stamford
widow of Beville Wimberly
-----Original Message-----
From: hsjohnson30222 <hsjohns...@yahoo.com>
To: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Fri, May 17, 2013 4:20 pm
Subject: Re: Revisiting the marriages and children of Cornelius Beresford
Bronwen Edwards
May 18, 2013, 4:25:23 PM5/18/13
to
On Friday, May 17, 2013 10:42:57 PM UTC-7, wjhonson wrote:
> Christopher Beresford of Leadenham
>
> who married Bridget Needham
>
> had as his *first* son William
>
> who married Winnifred Lascelles
>
>
>
> William, inherited Leadenham as the eldest son
>
> although he didn't hold it long, dying only six
>
> years after his father Christopher
>
>
>
> The property then descended to Williams' eldest
>
> son Christopher, this Chris was living in 1641
>
> and married as his second wife and her second
>
> husband Elizebeth Welby of Stamford
>
> widow of Beville Wimberly
Yes, this is clear from Lincolnshire Pedigrees and elsewhere. However, there seem to have been no children from this marriage which, as you say, was a 2nd marriage for each of them. Christopher's 1st wife was Elizabeth NN and it is only from this marriage that anyone has cited the existence of offspring. It is tempting to look hard at this couple (the first marriage of Christopher) because of the dates, but "my" Christopher was born 1630 and died 1691. The 2nd marriage for Christopher was 13 Aug 1618. A child of the first marriage could not have been born in 1630. Of course, the dates for "my" Christopher could be wrong. Bronwen
> Christopher Beresford of Leadenham
>
> who married Bridget Needham
>
> had as his *first* son William
>
> who married Winnifred Lascelles
>
>
>
> William, inherited Leadenham as the eldest son
>
> although he didn't hold it long, dying only six
>
> years after his father Christopher
>
>
>
> The property then descended to Williams' eldest
>
> son Christopher, this Chris was living in 1641
>
> and married as his second wife and her second
>
> husband Elizebeth Welby of Stamford
>
> widow of Beville Wimberly
Wjhonson
May 18, 2013, 4:35:25 PM5/18/13
to lostc...@yahoo.com, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Why do you say NN?
His first wife was Elizabeth Cartwright
daughter of
William Cartwright of Ossington Notts.
A child of this marriage (I don't know if there were
others) was that William Beresford of Leadenham
who married Margaret Thorold and died in 1659
while she died 1655 "aet 37"
-----Original Message-----
From: Bronwen Edwards <lostc...@yahoo.com>
To: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
His first wife was Elizabeth Cartwright
daughter of
William Cartwright of Ossington Notts.
A child of this marriage (I don't know if there were
others) was that William Beresford of Leadenham
who married Margaret Thorold and died in 1659
while she died 1655 "aet 37"
-----Original Message-----
From: Bronwen Edwards <lostc...@yahoo.com>
To: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sat, May 18, 2013 1:30 pm
Subject: Re: Revisiting the marriages and children of Cornelius Beresford
Subject: Re: Revisiting the marriages and children of Cornelius Beresford
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