Juliana Dammartin
Richard Ledyard
have a Alberic II Dammartin that has a daughter Juliane in the same time
period. Does anyone know if they are the same?
Thank you,
Dick Ledyard
ED MANN
I have:
Descendants of Alberic de Dammartin
1 Alberic de Dammartin aka: Aubrey II de Dammartin b: Abt. 1135 d: 19
Sep 1200 ref #: Ä152-26
+Mathilda de Ponthieu aka: Maud / Mahaut de Ponthieu b: Abt. 1138 d:
Aft. Oct 1200 ref #: Ä144-26
2 Juliane de Dammartin b: 1170 ref #: Ä152-27
+Hugues V de Gournay b: Abt. 1148 d: 1215 ref #: (Ä255-29)
2 Agnes de Dammartin ref #: Ä152-27
+William de Fiennes d: 1241 ref #: Ä158A-27
2 Simon II de Dammartin aka: Comte de Aumale b: 1180 d: 1239 ref #:
Ä144-27
+Marie de Ponthieu aka: Jeanne de Ponthieu b: 17 Apr 1199 d: Sep
1250 ref #: Ä109-29
--
FWIW; AFAIK; IMHO; YMMV; yadda, yadda, yadda.
Regards, Ed Mann mailto:edl...@mail2.lcia.com
References:
Ä = Weis, _Ancestral_Roots_, 7th ed.
AACPW = Roberts & Reitwiesner, _American Ancestors and Cousins of
the Princess of Wales_, [page].
AAP = Roberts, _Ancestors_of_American_Presidents_, [page] or
[Pres. # : page].
BP1 = _Burke's_Presidential_Families_, 1st ed. [page].
BPci = _Burke's_Peerage_, 101st ed., [page].
BRF = Weir, _Britain's_Royal_Families_, [page].
BxP = _Burke's_Dormant_&_Extinct_Peerages_, [page].
EC1 = Redlich, _Emperor_Charlemagne's_Descendants_, Vol I, [page].
EC2 = Langston & Buck, _Emperor_Charlemagne's_Descendants_, Vol II,
[page].
EC3 = Buck & Beard, _Emperor_Charlemagne's_Descendants_, Vol II,
[page].
F = Faris, _Plantagenet_Ancestry_, [page:para].
FMS = Stewart, _Forgotten_Monarchy_of_Scotland_, [page].
NK1 = Roberts, _Notable_Kin_Volume_One_, [page].
Π= Hardy, _Colonial_Families_of_the_Southern_States_of_America_,
[page].
S = Stuart, _Royalty_for_Commoners_, 2d ed. Caveat emptor.
W = Weis, _Magna_Charta_Sureties,_1215_, 4th ed.
WFT = Broderbund's World Family Tree CD, [vol]:[num] Caveat emptor.
WMC = Wurt's Magna Charta, [vol]:[page]
Todd A. Farmerie
>
> I have:
>
> Descendants of Alberic de Dammartin
>
> 1 Alberic de Dammartin aka: Aubrey II de Dammartin b: Abt. 1135 d: 19
> Sep 1200 ref #: Ä152-26
> +Mathilda de Ponthieu aka: Maud / Mahaut de Ponthieu b: Abt. 1138 d:
> Aft. Oct 1200 ref #: Ä144-26
> 2 Simon II de Dammartin aka: Comte de Aumale b: 1180 d: 1239 ref #:
> Ä144-27
> +Marie de Ponthieu aka: Jeanne de Ponthieu b: 17 Apr 1199 d: Sep
> 1250 ref #: Ä109-29
>
Matilda was not de Ponthieu - that was her daughter-in-law.
taf
U...@aol.com
7560...@compuserve.com writes:
<< In my records I have a Juliana Dammartin that married Hugh Gournay. I also
have a Alberic II Dammartin that has a daughter Juliane in the same time
period. Does anyone know if they are the same?
Thank you,
Dick Ledyard
>>
What I show as Julianna's parents
Descendants of Alberic II de Dammartin
1 Alberic II de Dammartin b: Abt. 1135 in of Dampmartin, Ile de France,
FRA d: 19 September 1200 in London, ENG
.. +Mahaut de Clermont d: Aft. October 1200
2 Simon II de Dammartin b: Abt. 1180 in Normandie, FRA d: 21
September 1239 in Abbeville, FRA
.. +Marie de Ponthieu b: 17 April 1199 in of Aumale, Somme, FRA d:
September 1250 in Abbeville, FRA
2 Julianna de Dammartin b: 1170 in Dammartin, FRA
.. +Hugues V de Gournay b: Abt. 1148 in Caister, NFK, ENG d: Bet.
1214 - 1238
2 Agnes de Dammartin
.. +Guillaume I de Fiennes d: 1240
2 Renaud de Dammartin
.. +Marie de Chatillon
*2nd Wife of Renaud de Dammartin:
.. +Ida of Flanders
2 Aelis de Dammartin-en-Goele \\
2 Clemence de Dammartin
.. +Jacques de St. Omer
Always optimistic--Dave
Richard Borthwick
notice that ES III/4:649 does not list her amongst the children of Alberic
II (3 sons & 3 daughters). Farrer in H&KF III:422 does not name her parents
and says only that Hugh "is said to have married Juliana de Danmartin".
Juliana's husband died before mid-March in 1215 [ibid.]. His son Hugh had
succeeded by 1216 when he received his fees in Suffolk and Norfolk though
these with his other fees were taken back into the king's hand because of
the row between John and the barons. All were restored in 1222 by Henry III
[HKF:422-423].
Todd A. Farmerie
>
> At 05:15 PM 19/11/99 EST, you wrote:
>
> >What I show as Julianna's parents
> >
> >Descendants of Alberic II de Dammartin
> >
> > 1 Alberic II de Dammartin b: Abt. 1135 in of Dampmartin, Ile de
> France,
> >FRA d: 19 September 1200 in London, ENG
> >.. +Mahaut de Clermont d: Aft. October 1200
> >.. +Hugues V de Gournay b: Abt. 1148 in Caister, NFK, ENG d: Bet.
> >1214 - 1238
> What is the basis/authority/source for this affiliation for Juliana? I
> notice that ES III/4:649 does not list her amongst the children of Alberic
> II (3 sons & 3 daughters). Farrer in H&KF III:422 does not name her parents
> and says only that Hugh "is said to have married Juliana de Danmartin".
> Juliana's husband died before mid-March in 1215 [ibid.]. His son Hugh had
> succeeded by 1216 when he received his fees in Suffolk and Norfolk though
> these with his other fees were taken back into the king's hand because of
> the row between John and the barons. All were restored in 1222 by Henry III
> [HKF:422-423].
I suspect this is a guess based on dates, but I doubt such a guess took
into account the English branches of the Dammartin family. Off the top
of my head, I don't recall the name Juliana appearing among the Counts
of Dammartin in other generations.
taf
Richard Borthwick
>There is a very detailed two volume genealogy of the House of Gournay which
>covers the connection to the Dammartains. It's been a while since I
looked at
>it, but it cites many charters in extenso in voluminous appendices, so you
>ought to check it.
>
>I think it is
>
>Daniel Gurney, _The record of the house of Gournay_ (London, 1858) [FHL
BRITISH
>Film 1,426,050 Items 2-3],
Gurney is referred to by Farrer usually by way of arguing with conclusions
drawn by the former. I notice that Turton uses a source I have never heard
of, J Hannay - House of Gournay (1867).
>rather than
>
>James Anderson, _A genealogical history of the house of Yvrey...and Gournay
>(London, 1742).
>
>Does ES cite it among its sources for this line?
>
>Paul
>
The Dammartin line (ES III/4:659) sources do not include Gurney and show no
awareness of the sources (e.g. Farrer) for the English ramifications of
this family (see Todd Farmerie's post of today).
Richard
Paul C. Reed
covers the connection to the Dammartains. It's been a while since I looked at
it, but it cites many charters in extenso in voluminous appendices, so you
ought to check it.
I think it is
Daniel Gurney, _The record of the house of Gournay_ (London, 1858) [FHL BRITISH
Film 1,426,050 Items 2-3],
rather than
U...@aol.com
rg...@cyllene.uwa.edu.au writes:
<< What is the basis/authority/source for this affiliation for Juliana? I
notice that ES III/4:649 does not list her amongst the children of Alberic
II (3 sons & 3 daughters). Farrer in H&KF III:422 does not name her parents
and says only that Hugh "is said to have married Juliana de Danmartin".
Juliana's husband died before mid-March in 1215 [ibid.]. His son Hugh had
succeeded by 1216 when he received his fees in Suffolk and Norfolk though
these with his other fees were taken back into the king's hand because of
the row between John and the barons. All were restored in 1222 by Henry III
[HKF:422-423].
>>
As to the parentage of a Juliana, "The Ancestry of Elizabeth of York" lists
as children of Alberic II and Maud of Ponthieu: Simon, Julia, Agnes/Alice,
Renaud I, Aelis, and Clemence giving sources as Lineage and Ancestry of HRH
Prince Charles by Paget, Vol. I, p. 69 and Europaische Stammtafeln by
Isenburg, chart 649, 653.
As to her marriage to Hugh I have several references to Weis AR 7, 255-29 &
152-27. As to whether they are the same person, I know not. Help is welcome.
Always optimistic--Dave
Todd A. Farmerie
>
> In a message dated 11/20/99 6:57:36 PM Central Standard Time,
> rg...@cyllene.uwa.edu.au writes:
>
> << What is the basis/authority/source for this affiliation for Juliana? I
> notice that ES III/4:649 does not list her amongst the children of Alberic
> II (3 sons & 3 daughters).
> >>
> as children of Alberic II and Maud of Ponthieu: Simon, Julia, Agnes/Alice,
> Renaud I, Aelis, and Clemence giving sources as Lineage and Ancestry of HRH
> Prince Charles by Paget, Vol. I, p. 69 and Europaische Stammtafeln by
> Isenburg, chart 649, 653.
I don't recall which volume of Paget is which, but this would either be
the mastrer ancestry chart or the 5-generation table for queen Eleanor
of Castile. Either way it wouldn't list other children of the couple,
so unless Paget traces a line through Juliane, it could't have come from
there (does anyone know if Charles has such a line? I know this goes
into the Bardolfs, but I seem to recall an alternative as well). As to
Isenburg, if it was there, then Schwennicke must have had a reason for
removing it.
taf
ROBERT E. BOWMAN
Alberic II Count of Dammartin d. 19.9.1200 marrying Maud N. Their son
Simon de Dammartin, Count of Aumale and Ponthieu d. 21.9.1239 (1st husband)
m. Mary of Ponthieu b. after 1195 m. before 9.1208 d. 1251
Robert Bowman
Todd A. Farmerie
daughter of Alberic II and Mahaut. For this relationship he cites G.
Herbert Fowler, Transatus de Dunstaple et de Hocton, Publications of the
Beds. Hist. Rec. Soc., XIX (1937), p. 86. However, he subsequently
indicates that Fowler was somewhat confused as to her exact placement
relative to Joan Basset. Anyone have access to this so we can figure
out what Fowler actually said?
taf
Mardi Carter
"The accepted account of the pedigree assigns as wife to my Hugh IV a
Juliana de Dammartin. Her marriage to a member of the Gournay family is
supported by an early charter of Hugh de Gournay, for the souls of his
father Hugh mother Millicent and wife Juliana, to Missenden abbey; and by
another charter of perhaps a later Hugh, granting land at Wendover to the
hermitage chapel on Muswell Hill in Piddington co. Oxon.; this hermitage
had been confirmed by Aubry Count of Dammartin with the consent of his son
Reginald (the supposed father and brother of Juliana) to Missenden abbey,
count Aubrey being the third husband of the widow of the lord of
Piddington."
Then on p 86:
Speaking of Hugh V, son of Hugh IV above: "This Hugh seems to have been
married three times; to Juliana daughter of Aubrey de Dammartin; to Lucy,
widow of Robert de Berkeley, who died in 1234.....; and to Matilda of
unknown parentage....."
These passages have superscript numbers referring to notes which I
neglected to copy. Sorry.
mbc
Todd A. Farmerie
>
> Bed Rec Soc vol 19 p 85:
>
> "The accepted account of the pedigree assigns as wife to my Hugh IV a
> Juliana de Dammartin. Her marriage to a member of the Gournay family is
> supported by an early charter of Hugh de Gournay, for the souls of his
> father Hugh mother Millicent and wife Juliana, to Missenden abbey; and by
> another charter of perhaps a later Hugh, granting land at Wendover to the
> hermitage chapel on Muswell Hill in Piddington co. Oxon.; this hermitage
> had been confirmed by Aubry Count of Dammartin with the consent of his son
> Reginald (the supposed father and brother of Juliana) to Missenden abbey,
> count Aubrey being the third husband of the widow of the lord of
> Piddington."
It should be pointed out that this statement is not in line with current
reconstructions. As pointed out bu Evans, the widowed lady of
Piddlington was third wife of Aubrey I, and thus step-mother of Aubrey
II named here. There would appear to be a link, but I seem to recall
the English Dammartin lines having a connection to Missenden.
taf