Origin of Boyd of Kilmarnock and Lyle of Duchal (1)
Jared Olar
On Mon, 20 May 1996, Linda (Boyd) Lawhon wrote:
> >In the "The Scottish Nation or the Surnames, Families, Literature,
> >Honours, and Biographical History of the People of Scotland , Volume
> >B " by William Anderson and published 1995 by Heritage Books, Inc,
> >1540-E Pointer Ridge Place, Bowie, MD 20716, Ph. 1-800-398-7709, ISBN
> >0-7884-0246-3:
> >
> >Anderson expresses that Scottish genealogists were fond of finding
> >Celtic origins for Norman and Saxon names.
Rightly so. Scotland was a *primarily* Celtic culture during the
centuries when what would become Scottish surnames began to develop.
It's not unlikely that "Boyd" is one of that surnames of Celtic
derivation, though the traditional story meant to account for its origin
is very probably incorrect.
> >He indicates that they do this because Scotland was at one time populated
> >by a Celtic race which they imagine must have been inhabiting the whole
> >country at the commencement of Scottish history.
On the contrary, many historians and genealogists who find Celtic
derivations for Scottish surnames are well aware that the "Scots" proper
were originally limited to western regions, primarily Argyll (which means
"the Coastland of the Gael," so called from the settlement of Irish--that
is, "Scottish"--peoples in that territory).
> >He indicates that it is evident that the region between the Forth and
> >Clyde on the north, and the Tweed and Solway on the south, had, with
> >the exception of Galloway, by the conquest of the Saxons, and afterwards of
> >the Danes and Norwegians, been for centuries previous to the Saxon
> >conquest, as it is called, in the possession of other races, never
> >amalgamating in any instance with the Celtic, whom they must therefore
> >have driven out or retained in a state of slavery.
On the contrary, those "other races" did indeed amalgamate with the
Celtic peoples. Besides the Scots, the other major Celtic group were the
Strathclyde Welsh of Renfrewshire, Galloway, and neighboring lands. The
Scots had a Gaelic Celtic language, the Welsh had a Brythonic Celtic
language. In addition to the Celts, we have those peoples called
"Picts," termed CRUITHNIGH in Gaelic, their land CRUITHENTUATH, the
Pictish Land or Kingdom. The original language of the Picts is unknown,
but it was not Celtic--the rare surviving traces of it in stray ogam
inscriptions have yet to be deciphered. However, the Picts were
influenced by the Celts, and as time passed seem to have become more and
more Celtic in culture. By the 800's A.D. there had been many examples
of Scottish and Welsh princes ruling as Pictish kings--and in fact,
nearly every name in surviving Pictish king lists seems to be a Celtic
name of some sort. This is clear evidence of racial amalgamation.
> >Anderson indicates that Count David, and later David the First, king
> >of Scotland, in his writings, there is not a Celtic name to be found.
> >All the names were either Saxon or Norman, along with one of two
> >Danish or Norwegian names.
This is not surprising, since David was brought up in Norman England.
The feudalisation of Scotland which might be said to have commenced under
David's father Malcolm III continued under David I. Numerous Norman,
Saxon, etc., knights and adventurers accompanied David to Scotland, or
followed him in after years.
> >These writings were prior to the settlement of Alan, the founder of
> >the Stewards, in that country.
This "Alan, founder of the Stewards" can only be Alan FitzFlaad, who
never came to Scotland. It was his son Walter FitzAlan who "founded" the
Stewart family in Scotland. David I made Walter the first High Steward
(or Great Steward) of his kingdom.
> >Anderson also indicates that among the Saxon names of witnesses occurs
> >that of BOED or BOYD, as a person of some consequence at that time.
"Boed" does not look very Saxon at all. Sound more Celtic than
English--compare the name BOETE, a royal Scottish prince of Clan Dubh,
or the Gaelic name BOETAN, afterwards Baetan, Baedan, or Baodan. But
whatever the national origin of this Boed, there is no reason to identify
him as the founder of the Boyds.
> >Anderson further indicates that it is most unlikely that there were any
> >Celtic people around the family of the high steward.
This sentence is rather strong considering the limitations of the sources
with which we have to work.
> >He indicates that the first recorded ancestor of the Boyds, earls of
> >Kilmarnock, was Simon, brother of Walter, the first high steward of
> >Scotland, and youngest son of Alan the son of Flathald (the fabulous
> >Fleance of Shakspere). He is said to have been the father of Robert
> >called BOYT or BOYD, from his fair complexion. He died before the year
> >1240 and from him the various families of BOYD descended.
This tradition has now been shown to be entirely false. The problems are
explained clearly and concisely in THE SCOTS PEERAGE, Volume V, pp.136-7,
from which the following is derived:
I. EARLY NOTICES OF THE TRADITION:
Crawfurd's _Peerage_ (1716), 242 says, "The common bearings of the Boyds and
Stewarts have given ground to a conjecture that they are branched from the
Royal family of Stewart."
Nisbet's _Heraldry_, Edinburgh, 1722, i. 54 says, "The first of the sirname of
Boyd was Robert, son of Simon, third son of Allan, second Lord High Steward of
Scotland, who died 1153, which Robert is designed in the charters of Paisley
nephew to Walter the son of Allan Dapifer, Great Steward of Scotland."
In his _Caledonia, or an Account Historical and Topographical of North
Britain_, 1807-24, Chalmers says that Simon, a witness to the foundation
charter of the monastery of Paisley 1160, followed his brother Walter
FitzAlan into Scotland.
II. HISTORICAL EVIDENCE VERSUS TRADITION:
The foundation charter of Paisley dated 1160 does indeed mention a SIMON,
FRATER WALTERI FILII ALLANI--"Simon, brother of Walter FitzAlan."
However, this charter was executed at Fotheringay in Northamptonshire,
**not Paisley**. Simon did not have to go to Scotland to be a witness to
this charter, nor is there any evidence that he subsequently came to
Scotland.
In his paper on the origin of the Stewarts in the _Genealogist_, N.S.,
xviii. 13., J. H. Round showed that Walter FitzAlan's brother Simon was
his UTERINE brother--they shared the same mother, but had different
fathers. Round also showed that Walter's half-brother Simon is the same
as the SIMON DE CAISNETO or SIMON DE NORFOLC who held the Manor of
Mileham in England.
Nisbet's claim that the first of the Boyds was designed nephew of Walter
FitzAlan in the Cartulary of Paisley cannot be proven, because there is
no such entry in the Paisley charters. However, *IF* Robert Boyd was really
Walter's nephew, that does not prove he was the son of Walter's
half-brother Simon. He could be the son of a sister, or half-sister.
But since there is no evidence to show that the first Robert Boyd was
actually Walter's nephew, this tradition is shown to be baseless.
-----------------------------
That being said, it is known that the Boyds were early proprietors
in Renfrewshire, which was Stewart country, and the coat armor of the
Boyds and Stewarts was indeed similar (the fess cheque). However, this in
itself is no proof of common descent, though it is possible.
TO BE CONTINUED . . . .
Jared Olar
ol...@eagle.uis.edu
Stewart Baldwin
Jared Olar <ol...@UIS.EDU> wrote:
[much snipping]
>On the contrary, those "other races" did indeed amalgamate with the
>Celtic peoples. Besides the Scots, the other major Celtic group were the
>Strathclyde Welsh of Renfrewshire, Galloway, and neighboring lands. The
>Scots had a Gaelic Celtic language, the Welsh had a Brythonic Celtic
>language. In addition to the Celts, we have those peoples called
>"Picts," termed CRUITHNIGH in Gaelic, their land CRUITHENTUATH, the
>Pictish Land or Kingdom. The original language of the Picts is unknown,
>but it was not Celtic--the rare surviving traces of it in stray ogam
Whether or not the Pictish language was Celtic is disputed. The
number of survivng Pictish inscriptions is too small to be positive.
I tend to lean in the non-Celtic direction myself, but I don't think
you can make a definitive statement on this.
>inscriptions have yet to be deciphered. However, the Picts were
>influenced by the Celts, and as time passed seem to have become more and
>more Celtic in culture. By the 800's A.D. there had been many examples
>of Scottish and Welsh princes ruling as Pictish kings--and in fact,
I know of no Pictish king who can be definitely established as being
of Welsh origin. (It has sometimes been assumed that Bridei/Brude son
of Maelchon was a son of the Welsh prince Maelgwn Gwynedd, but there
is no proof of this identification.) In early (pre-750) Pictish
history, one Bernician prince and one Strathclyde prince are all that
can be verified for sure, but the Pictish matrilineal system of
succession makes it likely that there were others. From the late
eighth century on, it was relatively common for the Scots and Picts to
have the same king.
>nearly every name in surviving Pictish king lists seems to be a Celtic
>name of some sort. This is clear evidence of racial amalgamation.
In fact, the Pictish king list contains very few names of kings that
can be conclusively identified as Celtic. The repetition of king's
names on the historical part of the list is quite unlike any of the
known Celtic nations. Of the most common names of Pictish kings,
Bridei (Brude), Drest, Gartnait, Nechton, and Talorc(an), none is
common among the known Celtic peoples, and the few known early
examples of a non-Pict having these names is probably a borrowing from
the Picts. There are a few examples of borrowing the other way, too.
The names Ciniod (Cinaed - modern Kenneth) and Onuist (Oengus) are
clearly borrowed from the Irish and/or Scots, and Alpin is probably a
borrowing of the Strathclyde Elphin (which in turn was probably a
borrowing of the Anglo-Saxon Aelfwine), but most of these borrowings
_by_ the Picts occur in the later part of the Pictish king list, when
the Dalriadan influence was stronger.
Also, I think it is a mistake to assume that intermarriages among the
ruling class point to intermarriages among the common folks. I agree
that a great deal of intermingling went on after the political
unification of the Scots and the Picts, but this has to be established
by evidence other than the habits of the ruling class.
Stewart Baldwin
Jared Olar
On Wed, 19 Jun 1996, Stewart Baldwin wrote:
> Jared Olar <ol...@UIS.EDU> wrote:
>
> [much snipping]
>
> >On the contrary, those "other races" did indeed amalgamate with the
> >Celtic peoples. Besides the Scots, the other major Celtic group were the
> >Strathclyde Welsh of Renfrewshire, Galloway, and neighboring lands. The
> >Scots had a Gaelic Celtic language, the Welsh had a Brythonic Celtic
> >language. In addition to the Celts, we have those peoples called
> >"Picts," termed CRUITHNIGH in Gaelic, their land CRUITHENTUATH, the
> >Pictish Land or Kingdom. The original language of the Picts is unknown,
> >but it was not Celtic--the rare surviving traces of it in stray ogam
> >inscriptions have yet to be deciphered.
>
> Whether or not the Pictish language was Celtic is disputed. The
> number of survivng Pictish inscriptions is too small to be positive.
> I tend to lean in the non-Celtic direction myself, but I don't think
> you can make a definitive statement on this.
Actually, I tend to believe that even if their language was non-Celtic
(as I believe it was), many of them were able to pick up Celtic from their
Gaelic and Welsh (or British, I should say) neighbors. My own
grandfather spoke (in varying degrees of fluency) eight languages. He
was a Romanian peasant, not a linguist, but he came from a part of
eastern Europe where many different ethnic groups lived, and necessity
led him to learn his neighbors' languages. A similar thing would have
taken place in ancient Scotland.
> >However, the Picts were influenced by the Celts, and as time passed
> >seem to have become more and more Celtic in culture. By the 800's
> >A.D. there had been many examples of Scottish and Welsh princes ruling
> >as Pictish kings--
> I know of no Pictish king who can be definitely established as being
> of Welsh origin.
I meant "Strathclyde Welsh," the Gwyr Y Gogled, Men of the North. Brude
mac Bile was "Welsh."
> >and in fact, nearly every name in surviving Pictish king lists seems to
> >be a Celtic name of some sort. This is clear evidence of racial
> >amalgamation.
>
> In fact, the Pictish king list contains very few names of kings that
> can be conclusively identified as Celtic. The repetition of king's
> names on the historical part of the list is quite unlike any of the
> known Celtic nations. Of the most common names of Pictish kings,
> Bridei (Brude), Drest, Gartnait, Nechton, and Talorc(an), none is
> common among the known Celtic peoples, and the few known early
> examples of a non-Pict having these names is probably a borrowing from
> the Picts. There are a few examples of borrowing the other way, too.
> The names Ciniod (Cinaed - modern Kenneth) and Onuist (Oengus) are
> clearly borrowed from the Irish and/or Scots, and Alpin is probably a
> borrowing of the Strathclyde Elphin (which in turn was probably a
> borrowing of the Anglo-Saxon Aelfwine), but most of these borrowings
> _by_ the Picts occur in the later part of the Pictish king list, when
> the Dalriadan influence was stronger.
It is this sort of borrowing which I would take as indicative of growing
amalgamation over time. This is the period to which I was referring,
when intermingling was taking place, and the Pictish were becoming
"Gaelicised." Also, other than the five Pictish royal names you list (and
Neachtan is almost certainly Celtic), the names of the king's fathers are
frequently identifiably Celtic--and in the legendary parts of the Pictish
kinglists we often find names made up of Celtic roots.
> Also, I think it is a mistake to assume that intermarriages among the
> ruling class point to intermarriages among the common folks.
Yes, it doesn't necessarily indicate that there was general
intermingling. But . . . .
> I agree that a great deal of intermingling went on after the political
> unification of the Scots and the Picts, but this has to be established
> by evidence other than the habits of the ruling class.
This intermingling is the exact thing which Sam Boyd's source William Anderson
denies ever happened--instead arguing that the non-Celtic races of Scotland
(read "Picts") were enslaved, slaughtered, and or expelled, with no
significant intermarriage. Since there is no evidence that anything of the
sort happened, and since aliens didn't show up to beam the Picts to the other
side of the Milky Way Galaxy (or maybe they did!), we can be pretty sure
that there was racial amalgamation--and it was well after that process had
pretty much finished that Scottish surnames came into being. Therefore
we can safely rule out the possibility that names like "Boyd" go back to
prehistoric non-Celtic populations of Scotland. This was the point I was
getting at, and as I reread my words, I see that I failed to make myself
very clear. Sorry.
Jared Olar
Peter A. Kincaid
I just thought I'd take a minute to thank you for your posts on the
Boyd family. They are a joy to read. I commend you on your efforts
and particularly your documentation and thorough analyses.
I have a passing interest in the Boyd's as one of the Kincaid chiefs
married a Boyd of Trochrig. The Kincaids hailed from Campsie Parish
in Stirlingshire.
Again, nice work!
Peter A. Kincaid
Fredericton, NB, Canada