Humphrey DE HARCOURT
Gordon Fisher
At 10:06 PM 9/15/96 -0400, you wrote:
>In a "borrowed" genealogy file I have found Humphrey DE HARCOURT as below.
>Can anyone confirm or deny the information in this listing?
>
>
>Descendants of BERNARD 'the DANE' DE HARCOURT of Saxony
>
> 1 BERNARD 'the DANE' DE HARCOURT of Saxony Abt 860 -
>. +SPROTA of Burgundy Abt 895 -
> 2 Torf 'The Rich' DE HARCOURT Abt 900 -
>.. +Ertemberge DE BRIOQUIBEC Abt 930 -
> 3 Tourude (Turquetil) DE HARCOURT Abt 940 -
>... +Wevia DE CREPON Abt 942 -
> 4 Humphrey DE HARCOURT Abt 980 -
>.... +Aubreye DE LA HAIE Abt 984 -
>. 5 Roger DE BEAUMONT Abt 1022 - 1094
>..... +Adeline DE MEULLANT Abt 1014 - 1081
>
>Thanks in advance,
>
>Sue
>
>_____________
>
>Susan Shannon
>susa...@sundial.net
>
>ARNOLD CARPENTER DROWNE GREENE MORSE HILL RHODES
>RUSSELL STAFFORD WESCOTT WHITNEY
>
>
FIRST GENERATION
1. Roger de BEAUMONT was born about 1010 in "of" Pont Audemer, N, France. IGI
has abt 1022. So does Roderick W Stuart, *Royalty for Commoners*, 2nd edn,
1992,
p 161 (lin 220) He died in 1094. 23rd ggf of Gordon Fisher
OR: Roger de BELLOMONT
"The same thing is true of Beaumont [i.e., the name "may well be Norman or at
least French in origin".] The first Baron Beaumont, Henry de Beaumont, was the
younger son of Louis de Brienne, of Acre, *jure uxoris*, Vicomte de Beaumont in
Maine and grandson of John de Brienne, King of Jerusalem. He flourished under
Edward I and II. Whether he was descended from the lords of Beaumont-le-Roger,
near Eure (de Dellomonte) we cannot say, but there was a Roger de Beaumont
recorded in the Domesday Book as holding Sturminster Marshal in Dorset, and this
Roger certainly took his name from Beaumont in Normandy. From Roger
descended the Counts of Meulan, the old Earls of Leicester, and the old Earls of
Warwick."
--- Leslie Gilbert Pine, *They Came with the Conqueror, A study of the modern
descendants of the Normans", London (Evans Brothers Ltd) 1954, p 106-107
"ROGER DE BEAUMONT, SIRE DE PONTEAUDEMER (Humphrey de Veulles ..., Touroude
..., Torf), born about 1010, succeeded to the family estates in Normandy, as
Sire du
Ponteaudemer, Seigneur de Veulles, Pre'aux, Torville, and du Ponteaitorf, and
Seigneur de Beaumont (or Bellomont), by which last name he came to be generally
described. By his marriage he greatly increased the possessions and prestige of
the family, and he rose to be one of the most powerful feudal noblemen of his
age in Normandy. When William the Conqueror invaded England in 1066, Roger de
Beaumont furnished sixty armed vessels for the fleet and was left in charge
of the
government of Normandy when the Conqueror started on the expedition. He
munificently endowed the Abbey of Pre'aux, of which late in life he became a
monk; and dying in 1094 at advanced age, he was buried in this monastery at
Ponteaudemer, Normandy. (P) He married about 1040, ADELINE DE MEULLANT,
daughter and eventually sole heiress of Waleran, Comte de Meullant, a great
feudal
nobleman of France. She died in 1081. (P) Children .... [see under their
names]."
--- J Gardner Bartlett, *Newberry Genealogy*, Boston, 1914, p 4-5
SECOND GENERATION
2. Humphrey de (Harcourt?) de VIEILLES Sire du Ponteaudemer was born about 980
in "of" Port-Audemer, France. He died on 28 Sep 1044 in Normandy, France. 24th
ggf of Gordon Fisher
OR: Humphrey de VEULLES; VEULEES
I got name as Humphrey Harcourt de Vieilles from somewhere
"Humphrey du Veulees [sic], Seigneur of Pont-Audemer, Vielles, Beaumont and
Beaumontel. Founder of the monasteries at Preaux, St. Acue and at St. Leger.
Born about 980 A.D. He m. Aubrey de la Haie (d. a. 1045), heiress of the
Forest of
Brotonne."
--- Burton Spear, *... Mary & John 1630*, v 17, 1992, p 103
"HUMPHREY DE VEULLES, SIRE DU PONTAEUDEMER (Tourude ..., Torf ...), born about
980, succeeded his father as Sire du Ponteaudemer, and also was Seigneur de
Veulles, Pre'aux, Torville, Ponteautorf, Beaumont, etc. From his close
connection
with the ducal house, he was pominent during the reigns of Dukes Richard
III, and
Robert "the Devil" (1026-1035). His name is found on many monastic charters
of the
period; and about 1050 he founded and endowed the Abbey of Pre'aux in
Pontaudemer, where he was buried." (P) He married about 1005, AUBERE'E DE LA
HAYE. Children: i. ROBERT DE BEAUMONT, b. about 1005, succeeded his father
as Sire
du Ponteaudemer, Seigneur de Veulles, Beaumont, Pre'aux, Torville, etc., but
died
without issue. ii. ROGER DE BEAUMONT, b. about 1010, heir and successor to his
brother."
--- J. Gardner Bartlett, *Newberry Genealogy*, Boston, 1914, p 4 He was
married
to Aubreye de LA HAIE about 1005.
3. Aubreye de LA HAIE was born about 984 in "of" Pontaudemer, France. She died
on 20 Sep 1045. OR: Aubere'e de la HAYE
THIRD GENERATION
4. THOROLD Sire du Ponteaudemer was born about 950 in "of" Pont-Audemer,
France. 25th ggf of Gordon Fisher
OR: TOURUDE. (I once got the name as Tourude de Harcourt from somewhere)
"Thorold, Seigneur of Pont-Audemer -- Born about 950 A.D."
--- Burton Spear, *... Mary & John 1630*, v 17, 1992, p 103
"TOUROUDE, SIRE DU PONTEAUDEMER (Torf 1 ...), born about 950, by inheritance
from his father was Seigneur du Ponteautorf, de Torville, Torcy, Torny, and
Torly,
and became Sire du Ponteaudemer which became his principal residence and by
which name he was commonly known. By his marriage he enhanced his position
among the Norman nobility, and he was a prominent figure during the reigns of
Dukes Richard II., Richard III., and Robert "the Devil" (996-1035). (P) He
married
about 980, WEVIA DE CREPON, a younger sister of the Duchess Gunnora, wife of
Richard I., Duke of Normandy. (P) Children: i. HUMPHREY DE VEULLES, SIRE DE
PONTEAUDEMER, b. about 980. ii. HERBRAND DU PONTEAUDEMER. iii. GILBERD DU
PONTEAUDEMER. iv. RICHARD DU PONTEAUDEMER. v. ILBERT DU PONTEAUDEMER. vi.
JOSSELINE, m. HUGH DE MONTGOMERY."
--- J Gardner Bartlett, *Newberry Genealogy*, Boston, 1914, p 3-4.
5. Wevie CREPON was born about 942 in "of" Port-Audemer, France. 29th ggm of
Gordon Fisher
Or: WEVIA or DUCELINE or DUVELINA or AVELINA; Ancestry Chart sent by Richard
Mosher has AVELINE
See note under son Walter GIFFARD
FOURTH GENERATION
8. TORF Seigneur de Torville was born about 920. 26th ggf of Gordon Fisher
"Torf" [that's all!]
--- Burton Spear, *... Mary & John 1630*, v 17, 1992, p 103
"For a more complete account of this [NEWBERRY-NEWBURGH] family see the
"Newberry Genealogy" by J. Gardiner Bartlett where the line will be found
continued back through 14 more generations to Torf, Seigneur de torville, a
great
Norman Feudal Baron, b. abt. 920, in a certain and unbroken line."
--- Ernest Flagg, *Genealogical Notes on the Founding of New England*,
1926 (rep
1990), p 337
"TORF, SEIGNEUR DE TORVILLE, a great Norman feudal baron, born about A. D.
920, is
the earliest historical progenitor of the Newburgh or Newberry family from whom
a certain and unbroken male line has been traced. Probably he was a grandson of
one of the viking chiefs of Scandinavia who accompanied Rollo about 900 A.D. in
the Norse invasion of northern France where they permanently settled and gave
to the country its name "Normandy". Torf possessed numerous lordships in
Normandy, being Seigneur de Torville, Torcy, Torny, Torly, du Ponteautord,
etc. (P)
He married about 950, ERTEMBERGE DE BRIQUEBEC. Children: i. TOUROUDE, SIRE DU
PONTEAUDEMER, b. about 950. ii. TURCHETIL, SEIGNEUR DE TURQUEVILLE, ancestor of
the celebrated Harcourt family of Normandy and England. iii. WILLIAM DE
TORVILLE."
--- J. Gardner Bartlett, *Newberry Genealogy: The Ancestors and
Descendants of
Thomas Newberry of Dorchester, Mass., 1624, 920-1914*, Boston, 1914, p 3.
There is
a footnote on p. 3 to this entry: "It has been suggested that he was a son of
Bernard the Dane, the most powerful of the feudal nobles of Normandy during
the reign of Duke William I. (927-943) and Regent during the minority of Duke
Richard I. (943-955); but this claim has not been proved." He was married to
Ertemberge de BRIQUEBEC about 950.
9. Ertemberge de BRIQUEBEC.
10. Herbastus de CREPON was born in Normandy, France. 29th ggf of Gordon
Fisher
Or: Haraldblaafand OF DENMARK, King (thus in Ancestry Chart sent by Richard
Mosher)
Of the "Noblest House of the Danes"
11. (w of Herbastus de Crepon) ---. 29th ggm of Gordon Fisher
Prepared by:
Gordon Fisher
334 Franklin St
Harrisonburg VA 22801 USA
540-433-0531 (USA)
Susan Shannon
Richard Borthwick
There seems to be a high degree of muddle here. The first known ancestor of the
Harcourts is Turchetil sgr. of Tourville, Turqueray and Turqueville b.
ca.960 d. after 1024. He married Anceline dau. of Hugh II s. of
Montfort-sur-Risle. For his descendants see: *Europaische Stammtafeln*
vol.X, Table 123, 139; D Crouch *The Beamont Twins* (Cambridge, 1986).
James E. Dunn
In article <2.2.32.19960916...@mailhost.sundial.net>, Medieval
Genealogy Discussion List <GEN-ME...@MAIL.EWORLD.COM> wrote:
> In a "borrowed" genealogy file I have found Humphrey DE HARCOURT as below.
> Can anyone confirm or deny the information in this listing?
>
>
> Descendants of BERNARD 'the DANE' DE HARCOURT of Saxony
>
> 1 BERNARD 'the DANE' DE HARCOURT of Saxony Abt 860 -
> . +SPROTA of Burgundy Abt 895 -
> 2 Torf 'The Rich' DE HARCOURT Abt 900 -
> .. +Ertemberge DE BRIOQUIBEC Abt 930 -
> 3 Tourude (Turquetil) DE HARCOURT Abt 940 -
> ... +Wevia DE CREPON Abt 942 -
> 4 Humphrey DE HARCOURT Abt 980 -
> .... +Aubreye DE LA HAIE Abt 984 -
> . 5 Roger DE BEAUMONT Abt 1022 - 1094
> ..... +Adeline DE MEULLANT Abt 1014 - 1081
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> Sue
>
> _____________
>
> Susan Shannon
> susa...@sundial.net
>
> ARNOLD CARPENTER DROWNE GREENE MORSE HILL RHODES
> RUSSELL STAFFORD WESCOTT
WHITNEY
Coincidently, I have added this same cast of characters to my own family
lines this past weekend. The LDS Ancestral File Shows Bernard Harcourt's
wife as Sprote Bourgoyne, rather than Sprota of Burgundy. But then, who
do you believe after all of these years? Also, Roger's wife is listed by
this same source as Adeliza Meulent (Countess of Meulan). Other than
these two things, your information jibes with mine.
Jim Dunn
Todd A. Farmerie
Gordon Fisher wrote:
>
> At 10:06 PM 9/15/96 -0400, you wrote:
> >In a "borrowed" genealogy file I have found Humphrey DE HARCOURT as below.
> >Can anyone confirm or deny the information in this listing?
> >
> >
> >Descendants of BERNARD 'the DANE' DE HARCOURT of Saxony
> >
> > 1 BERNARD 'the DANE' DE HARCOURT of Saxony Abt 860 -
> >. +SPROTA of Burgundy Abt 895 -
A Dane named Bernard? A Norman from Saxony? A Burgundian with a Breton
name? Inventions All!
> > 2 Torf 'The Rich' DE HARCOURT Abt 900 -
> >.. +Ertemberge DE BRIOQUIBEC Abt 930 -
> > 3 Tourude (Turquetil) DE HARCOURT Abt 940 -
> >... +Wevia DE CREPON Abt 942 -
This confuses Touroulde, ancestor of the Beaumonts, with his brother
Turketel, ancestor of the Harcourts. For Wevia, see below. As to these
individuals using the surname Harcourt, this is an example of assigning
a surname used by a descendant to the entire kindred, most living before
surnames were used. They could as well (and equally incorrectly) all be
called de BEAUMONT.
> >_____________
> >
>
> SECOND GENERATION
>
> 2. Humphrey de (Harcourt?) de VIEILLES Sire du Ponteaudemer was born about 980
> in "of" Port-Audemer, France. He died on 28 Sep 1044 in Normandy, France. 24th
> ggf of Gordon Fisher
>
Not Harcourt. See above.
> THIRD GENERATION
>
> 4. THOROLD Sire du Ponteaudemer was born about 950 in "of" Pont-Audemer,
> France. 25th ggf of Gordon Fisher
>
> OR: TOURUDE. (I once got the name as Tourude de Harcourt from somewhere)
>
> "Thorold, Seigneur of Pont-Audemer -- Born about 950 A.D."
> --- Burton Spear, *... Mary & John 1630*, v 17, 1992, p 103
>
> "TOUROUDE, SIRE DU PONTEAUDEMER (Torf 1 ...), born about 950, by inheritance
> from his father was Seigneur du Ponteautorf, de Torville, Torcy, Torny, and
> Torly, and became Sire du Ponteaudemer which became his principal residence and by
> which name he was commonly known. By his marriage he enhanced his position
> among the Norman nobility, and he was a prominent figure during the reigns of
> Dukes Richard II., Richard III., and Robert "the Devil" (996-1035). (P) He
> married about 980, WEVIA DE CREPON, a younger sister of the Duchess Gunnora, wife
> of Richard I., Duke of Normandy. (P) Children: i. HUMPHREY DE VEULLES, SIRE DE
> PONTEAUDEMER, b. about 980. ii. HERBRAND DU PONTEAUDEMER. iii. GILBERD DU
> PONTEAUDEMER. iv. RICHARD DU PONTEAUDEMER. v. ILBERT DU PONTEAUDEMER. vi.
> JOSSELINE, m. HUGH DE MONTGOMERY."
> --- J Gardner Bartlett, *Newberry Genealogy*, Boston, 1914, p 3-4.
>
> 5. Wevie CREPON was born about 942 in "of" Port-Audemer, France. 29th ggm of
> Gordon Fisher
>
> Or: WEVIA or DUCELINE or DUVELINA or AVELINA; Ancestry Chart sent by Richard
> Mosher has AVELINE
>
> See note under son Walter GIFFARD
>
Josseline, wife of Hugh de Montgomery was niece of Gunnora, but which of
Gunnor's sisters was her mother is open to speculation. The two
existing sources, neither of them contemporary, name different sisters,
Wevia by Robert of Torigny, Senflice (sp?) by a church document
prohibiting marriage of a Montgomery descendant to one of Henry I's
bastards, due to relation (Robert also confuses the Montgomery pedigree
somewhat). Recent concensus prefers Senflice, Gunnor's elder sister, as
mother of Josseline.
Now, as to Wevia vs. Duvelina. There was some confusion based on
different interpretations of Robert of Torigny. Again, modern consensus
places Duvelina as wife of Touroulde, and Wevia as wife of Osbern of
Crepon and ancestress of Giffard. Note that Wevia did not have the
surname CREPON prior to her marriage, (nor after if instead she was wife
of Touroulde instead of Osbern), and was not born at Pont Audemer,
(which was Touroulde's possession).
> FOURTH GENERATION
>
> 8. TORF Seigneur de Torville was born about 920. 26th ggf of Gordon Fisher
>
> 9. Ertemberge de BRIQUEBEC.
>
> 10. Herbastus de CREPON was born in Normandy, France. 29th ggf of Gordon
> Fisher
>
> Or: Haraldblaafand OF DENMARK, King (thus in Ancestry Chart sent by Richard
> Mosher)
>
> Of the "Noblest House of the Danes"
>
There is no evidence identifying the father of Gunnor and her sisters
Senflice, Duvelina, Wevia, and brother Arfast/Herfast (one source here
has taken the name of the brother and assigned it to the father, which
while possible, is entirely without support). What can be said is that
they were not children of King Harald Blaatand of Denmark, but likely
children of a member of the minor Norman gentry. The importance of the
kindred among the later Norman power structure appears entirely due to
Gunnor's relationship with Richard I.
Todd
Todd A. Farmerie
James E. Dunn wrote:
>
> In article <2.2.32.19960916...@mailhost.sundial.net>, Medieval
> Genealogy Discussion List <GEN-ME...@MAIL.EWORLD.COM> wrote:
>
> > . +SPROTA of Burgundy Abt 895 -
>
>
> lines this past weekend. The LDS Ancestral File Shows Bernard Harcourt's
> wife as Sprote Bourgoyne, rather than Sprota of Burgundy. But then, who
> do you believe after all of these years?
In this case, don't believe either source (they say the same thing
anyhow,
Bourgoyne being 'pig french' for "of Burgundy"). There is no historical
source for this information, and the nomenclature and geography are
entirely
wrong, demonstrating invention.
I am of the opinion that the Ancestral File is doing more damage to
medieval
genealogy than it is helping.
Todd