Plantagenet Descents From Ancient Judea
The Williams Family
Actually, a theoretical Plantagenet descent from the Kings of Judea was
proposed by Christian Settipani in his latest book. I would say that 6. - 19. (to
say the least!) are very shaky and that it is far from set in stone but there seems
nothing inherently improbable about it. I'd be interested in comments on this DFA.
Sincerely,
Kelsey J. Williams
1. Herod I the Great, King of Judea. b. c73 B.C. d. 4 B.C. m. to Mariamne, dau.
of Alexander (son of Aristobulus, King of Judea) & Alexandra (dau. of Hyrcanus II,
High Priest of the Jews). (George Wissowa [ed.], Pauly's Realencyclopadie der
Classischen Altertumswissenschaft, Supplementary Vol. 2 [Stuttgart, 1913], chart
bet. pp. 15-16).
2. Aristobulos. d. 7 B.C. m. to Berenike, dau. of Kostobar & Salome (d. c A.D.
10), dau. of Antipatros & sister of Herod. (ibid.).
3. Herod, King of Chalkis. d. A.D. 48. m. to Berenike (b. A.D. 29), dau. of
Agrippa I, King of Judea (brother of Herod of Chalkis), & Kypros, dau. of Phasael
(nephew of Herod) & Salampsio. (ibid.).
4. (Iulia). b. say A.D. 45. m. to C. Iulius Tigranes (V), King of Armenia (d.
aft. A.D. 62). (ibid.; Christian Settipani, Continuité gentilice et continuité
familiale dans les familles
sénatoriales romaines: mythe et réalité [2000], p. 456).
5. C. Iulius Alexander, King in Cilicia. d. aft. c105. m. to Iotape, dau. of
Antiochos IV, King of Commagne & Iotape. (Pauly-Wissowa; Settipani, pp. 448, 458).
6. (Iulia). m. to C. Iulius Quadratus Bassus, suf. 105, leg. Dacia 117. d. 117.
(Settipani, p. 458).
7. (Iulia Quadratilla). m. to C. Iulius Lupus T. Vibius Varus Laevillus, quaest
As. 132. (ibid., p. 458).
8. (A. Iulis). (ibid., p. 458).
9. (Iulia Qaudratilla). m. to (C. Asinius Nicomachus). (ibid., p. 189).
10. C. Asinius Protimus Quadratus, suf. c.200, procos. Ach. c211. d. aft. 235.
(ibid., p. 189).
11. C. Asinius Nicomachus Iulianus, suf. c215/20, procos. As. c230. (ibid., p.
189),
12. (Asinia Iuliana). m. to (Anicius Faustus). (ibid., p. 432).
13. Anicius Faustus, consul 298. d. aft. 300. m. to (Amnia) Demetrias. (ibid.,
p. 432).
14. Amnius Anicius Iulianus, consul 322. d. aft. 329. m. to (Caesonia Manilia).
(ibid., p. 432).
15. Amnius Manius Caesonius Nicomachus Anicius Paulinus, consil 334. m. to
(Auchenia Bassa). (ibid., p. 432).
16. Anicius Auchenius Bassus. d. aft. 385. m. to Turrania Honorata. (ibid., p.
432).
17. Turrania Anicia Iuliana. m. to Q. Clodius Hermogenianus Olybrius, consul 379.
(ibid., p. 432).
18. (Anicia). m. to Pontius. (Christian Settipani, Les Ancestres de Charlemagne
[Paris: Editions Christian, 1989], p. 172).
19. Adelphius or Hermogenianus. (ibid., p. 172).
20. Ruricius, Bishop of Limoges, c.485-507. A descendant of the Anicii. (ibid.,
p. 172).
21. (dau.). m. to Rusticius, Bishop of Lyons, 494-501. (ibid., p. 127).
22. Artemia. m. to Florentinus, Bishop of Geneva, 513. (ibid., p. 111).
23. (dau.). m. to Munderic, pretender to the Austrasian throne, c.532. (ibid.,
pp. 95-96).
24. Mummolin, poss. Mayor of the Palace of Neustria, 566. m. to the sister of
Aunulf, Duke of Angouleme. (ibid., pp. 79-80).
25. Bodogisel, ambassador to Byzantium, 589. m. to Chrodoare (St. Oda), abbess of
Amay, aft. 589-bef. 634. (ibid., pp. 63-65).
26. Saint Arnulf, Bishop of Metz, 614-629. m. to Doda. (ibid., pp. 43-48).
27. Ansegisel, fl. 648. m. to Begga, Abbess of Andenne, who d. 693. (ibid., pp.
31-33).
28. Pepin of Herstal, Mayor of the Palace, 688/90-714. m. to Alpaide. (ibid., pp.
22-25).
29. Charles Martel, Duke of the Franks, 717-741. m. to Rotrude. (ibid., pp.
18-20).
30. Pepin the Short, King of the Franks, 751-768. m. to Bertha of Laon. (ibid.,
pp. 15-17).
31. Carolus Magnus (Charlemagne), King of the Franks, Emperor of the West. b. 2
Apr 748. d. 28 Jan 814 at the palace of Aix-la-Chapelle. m. to bef. 30 Apr 771 to
Hildegardis, dau. of Gerold I, Count in Vinzgau & Imma, dau. of the german Duke
Hnabi. (Christian Settipani, La Prehistoire des Capetiens, 481-987, Premiere
Partie [Villeneuve d'Ascq, 1993], p. 191-204).
32. Hludovic (Louis) I, Emperor of the West, 814-840. m. to Judith, dau. of Welf,
778-840. (ibid., table 5).
33. Carolus II, Emperor of the West. m. to Ermentrudis, dau. of Odo of Orleans.
(ibid., table 7).
34. Hludovic II, King of the Franks. m. to Adelais. (ibid., table 7).
35. Carolus III, King of the Franks, 896-897. m. to Edgiva of Wessex. (ibid.,
table 7).
36. Hludovic IV, King of the Franks, 936. m. to Gerberga of Saxony. (ibid., table
7).
37. Mathildis. m. to Conrad II the Peaceful, King of Burgundy (b. 943, d.
c981-92). (ibid., table 7).
38. Bertha. m. c983 to Odo I, Comte de Blois, who d. 12 Mar 996. (Isenburg &
Loringhoven (ed.), Europaische Stammtafeln, Bnd. II, Tafel 42).
39. Odo II, Comte de Champagne. b. c990. d. 15 Nov 1037. m. c1010 to Irmgard
d'Auvergne. (ibid., II: 42).
40. Theobald III, Comte de Champagne. b. c1010. d. 1089. m. to Garsende de
Maine. (ibid., II: 42).
41. Stephen II, Comte de Blois. b. c1045. d. 13 Jul 1102. m. 1080 to Adele, dau.
of William the Conqueror. (ibid., II: 42).
42. Theobald IV, Comte de Champagne. d. Jan 1152. m. 1123 to Matilda, dau. of
Engelbert II, Herzog von Karnten. (ibid., II: 42).
43. Henri I, Comte de Champagne. b. c1126. d. 16 Mar 1181. m. 1164 to Marie,
dau. of Louis VII, King of France. (ibid., II: 42).
44. Theobald III, Comte de Champagne. b. 1176. d. 24 May 1201. m. 1195 to
Blanche, Queen of Navarre. (ibid., II: 43).
45. Theobald I, Roy de Navarre. b. 1201. d. 8 Jul 1253, m. Mar 1232 to
Marguerite, dau. of Archambaud VIII, Seigneur de Bourbon. (ibid., II: 43).
46. Henri I, Roy de Navarre. d. 22 Jul 1274. m. 1269 to Blanche, dau. of Robert,
Comte d'Artois. (ibid., II: 43).
47. Joan de Navarre. b. 1271. d. 2 Apr 1304. m. 16 Aug 1284 to Philippe IV le
Bel, Roi de France. (ibid., II: 15).
48. Isabelle de France. b. 1292. d. 27 Aug 1357. m. 25 Jan 1308 to Edward II,
King of England. (ibid., II: 15).
49. EDWARD III, KING OF ENGLAND. b. 13 Nov 1312 at Windsor Castle. d. 1 Jun 1377
at the manor of Shene & bu. in Westminster Abbey.
> Cecil Roth was the standard authority on this period when I was an
> undergraduate (I wrote a research paper for Clive Holmes at Cornell on
> the readmission of the Jews to England in the 17th century). I don't
> know about more recent scholarship; haven't thought about the subject
> in years.
>
> And, no, there are no Plantagenet descents (or descents of anyone
> else) from ancient Judaea. All "existing" are medieval forgeries by
> people who thought it would be Really Neat to link their patron's
> family to the Biblical era.
>
Nathaniel Taylor
gkkwi...@cowboy.net (The Williams Family) wrote:
>> And, no, there are no Plantagenet descents (or descents of anyone
>> else) from ancient Judaea. All "existing" are medieval forgeries by
>> people who thought it would be Really Neat to link their patron's
>> family to the Biblical era.
>
> Actually, a theoretical Plantagenet descent from the Kings of Judea was
>proposed by Christian Settipani in his latest book. I would say that 6. - 19.
>(to say the least!) are very shaky and that it is far from set in stone but there
>seems nothing inherently improbable about it. I'd be interested in comments on this
>DFA.
>
>Sincerely,
>Kelsey J. Williams
>
>
>1. Herod I the Great, King of Judea...
...
>20. Ruricius, Bishop of Limoges, c.485-507...
...
>31. Carolus Magnus (Charlemagne)
...
Ruricius of Limoges has long been bandied about as a not-too-improbable
ancestor of Charlemagne, and the assertion of his connections to the
Anicii (and their connections to other great families in Rome &
elsewhere) have also been the subject of lots of speculation,
speculating which in my view can never be made into anything other than
speculation. I know some others who are working on divergent hypotheses
of Ruricius' descent from the Anicii, but am not sure about the place of
Settipani's other conjectured connections in their views. Suffice it to
say that this is one of the speculated DFAs currently on the table, but
it lacks the simplicity and plausibility of the Armenian DFAs.
Nat Taylor
Francisco Antonio Doria
This is in part the line suggested at the end of _Les
Ancêtres de Charlemagne_.
chico
--- The Williams Family <gkkwi...@cowboy.net>
escreveu: > Hello,
=== message truncated ===
_______________________________________________________________________
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The Williams Family
Yes, it is but if I recall correctly some of the relationships in that
chart were demonstrated to be incorrect in "Continuité gentilice . . ."
Specifically, at generation 10 of my chart C. Asinius Quadratus Protimus is
given a descent from C. Iulius Quadratus Bassus (leg. Dacia 117) via his
father in "Les Ancestres" rather than his mother as presented in
"Continuite." Also, the Jewish connection is not pursued although a
descent from Antiochos II Theos of Syria is presented (I'm not sure if this
is upheld in the newer work or not).
Sincerely,
Kelsey J. Williams
Francisco Antonio Doria wrote:
>
> This is in part the line suggested at the end of _Les
> Ancêtres de Charlemagne_.
>
> chico
>
> > 1. Herod I the Great, King of Judea.
>
The Williams Family
I would agree with the lack of simplicity as compared to the Armenian DFA but why the
lack of plausibility? In my opinion the biggest leap of faith is from Ruricius to the
Anicii, once you are there you're on fairly solid ground. The exact connections may not
be known but general trends of descent can be determined. Also, the Armenian DFA has a
tendency to break down in the last years of the pre-Christian era in Parthia.
Regarding the idea of a DFA in general, what others are currently known besides
these? Surely there are some families in Italy which can trace (or pretend to trace)
descent from noblemen of the later Roman Empire.
Sincerely,
Kelsey J. Williams
Francisco Antonio Doria
There are some *myths* about Italian families (Orsini,
Massimo) and also about French families such as the
Lévis.
The Colonnas can trace their ancestry up to the Counts
of Tusculum, and that includes Marozia (there are some
problems in the actual link between the first Colonna
and the Counts of Tusculum, but assuredly there is
some connection). I know of a so-called ``viscountal''
descent for the Spinolas in Genoa, and I have also
tried to identify the Arduino who is the
semi-legendary ancestor of the Dorias (if the legend
holds, there is a likely candidate in a gson of
Arduino King of Italy; the Doria family would be their
bastards, and their ancestry would be pushed up to the
8th century).
I have proposed a DFA through the Counts of Coimbra,
with all virtues and weaknesses of all other examples
(it is based on an 11th century document which is
probably a late concoction but based on a [very
likely] true genealogy). It begins with the notorious
and mysterious Count Ardabasto (=Artavazd?), taken as
a maternal gson of Vardan III Mamikonian. Search the
files.
Best, chico
--- The Williams Family <gkkwi...@cowboy.net>
escreveu: > Hello,
_______________________________________________________________________
Francisco Antonio Doria
I haven' seen Settipani's new work, but I know that
his original line is close to A. R. Wagner's in
_Pedigree and Progress_.
chico
--- The Williams Family <gkkwi...@cowboy.net>
escreveu: > Hello,
_______________________________________________________________________
Nathaniel Taylor
>In article <ntaylor-C793C2...@nnrp03.earthlink.net>,
>From: "Le Bateman" <LeBa...@worldnet.att.net>
>To: "Nathaniel Taylor" <nta...@post.harvard.edu>
>Subject: Re: Plantagenet Descents From Ancient Judea
>Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 22:26:39 -0500
>
>How can there be any proof of the descendants when all of the royal archives
>were destroyed. In 586 B.C. and finally in A.D. 70. The Plantagenets were
>Normans second generation Vikings whose ancestors embraced the French
>culture.
*Some* of the ancestors of the Plantagenets (i.e. the male-line ones)
were as you describe. Each of the Plantagenets was also descended from
Charlemagne many times over; Charlemagne's ancestors may have included
Gallo-Roman nobility of the late Antique period (like Ruricius), whose
ancestors *may* have included kings of Judea. No *proof* (if by that
you mean contemporary documents which offer unambiguous support of each
link in a genealogy) will ever be found. But the DFAs will continue to
be tendered and critiqued based on a combination of onomastics,
inference from extant textual and epigraphic sources, reasoning from
known demographic phenomena (prosopography), and speculation.
Nat Taylor
Nathaniel Taylor
gkkwi...@cowboy.net (The Williams Family) wrote:
> (Nat Taylor wrote:)
>>
>> Ruricius of Limoges has long been bandied about as a not-too-improbable
>> ancestor of Charlemagne, and the assertion of his connections to the
>> Anicii (and their connections to other great families in Rome &
>> elsewhere) have also been the subject of lots of speculation,
>> speculating which in my view can never be made into anything other than
>> speculation. I know some others who are working on divergent hypotheses
>> of Ruricius' descent from the Anicii, but am not sure about the place of
>> Settipani's other conjectured connections in their views. Suffice it to
>> say that this is one of the speculated DFAs currently on the table, but
>> it lacks the simplicity and plausibility of the Armenian DFAs.
>I would agree with the lack of simplicity as compared to the Armenian DFA
>but why the lack of plausibility? In my opinion the biggest leap of faith
>is from Ruricius to the Anicii, once you are there you're on fairly solid
>ground. The exact connections may not be known but general trends of
>descent can be determined. Also, the Armenian DFA has a tendency to break
>down in the last years of the pre-Christian era in Parthia.
I meant that the Armenian DFA requires fewer families to be interrelated
exactly as conjectured for the DFA to be sound. The Roman one requires
a link from the Eastern Mediterranean to the Western which is more
tenuous, particularly given the alternative theses about just *how*
Ruricius might be descended from the Anicii.
One measure of DFAs is how 'robust' they are: that is, how likely they
are to be essentially true even if the specific segments of descent
within them need to be amended. To oversimplify it, the Armenian one
seems more plausible because of the known broad geographic and
demographic proximity of the nobilities through whom the descent is
traced (I can't comment on the Parthian caveat, but there's a lot on the
archives about various aspect of this DFA generally).
I don't doubt that the Late Antique Gallo-Romans also had connections
all across the Mediterranean, but I think the Armenian DFA has been more
thoroughly examined. I'd like to see more commentary on specific
aspects of the Rurician - Anician link. I am are of one work in
progress which offers a different line.
>Regarding the idea of a DFA in general, what others are currently known
>besides these?
If by 'known' you mean considered as established, then I would reiterate
that there are none. But the Armenian one, the Rurician one, and the
Chico' possible Byzantine-Iberian one are the ones usually on the radar
screen in this group. _Continuite_ appears to lay the groundwork for
other ideas that Settipani may work on or publish in the future. There
are only 2 or 3 others that I know of who are working this vein
seriouslly. Don, would you care to comment?
Nat Taylor
The Williams Family
I think there is not as much unlikeliness about a link directly from the westerrn to the eastern
Mediterranean as would appear at first glance. The Roman nobility were for the most part on the
Imperial career track and would have traveled about quite a bit as proconsul, legate, etc. Even so,
you're right about the relative "robustness" of the two DFAs; the Armenian one is distinctly stronger.
"Continuite" seemed to me as I read it to be more of a general overview of Roman genealogy &
prosopography than an indepth study. Settipani maddeningly passed over a number of families I'd like to
see more work done on but he did devote nearly half the book to the Anicii and their relations,
maintaing the focus set in "Les Ancetres." Ruricius himself however appears to outside the scope of
"Continuite" and I don't believe there was any discussion of his connection with the Anicii.
Looking at what was established (or supposed) in "Les Ancetres de Charlemagne" there appear to be at
least three more possible Gallo-Roman DFAs, namely:
1) Fl. Afranius Syagrius, maternal grandfather of Tonantius Ferreolus, prefect of the Gauls in 451.
Syagrius was consul in 382 and received a couple of pages in "Continuite" regarding some possible Roman
descents. Unfortunately, when I was examining it on interlibrary loan I neglected to note the substance
of these theories so I cannot offer anything definite.
2) Probus. Son of Magnus (consul in 460), brother of Magnus Felix (prefect in 469), nephew of an
unknown African proconsul, first cousin of Camille, a senator of Arles (461) and probable father of
Industria (wife of Ferreolus of Narbonne) and Firmin, senator of Arles (498/9). This family definitely
seems to part of the Gallo-Roman ruling class and from the names I'd say they could quite possibly be of
Roman or partial Roman descent.
3) Eulalia, cousin-german of Sidonius Apollinaris, wife of Probus above. The connection with Sidonius
is based on his "Carmina" (XXIV, 90, 94-8) and "Epistolae" (IV, 1, 1; III, 11, 1-2). Settipani writes
(p. 134) that her genealogy is discussed at length in K. F. Stroheker, "Der senatorische Adel in
spatantiken Gallien" (Tubingen, 1948) and Ralph Mathisen, "The Ecclesiastical Aristocracy of the
Fifth-Century Gaul: A Regional Analysis of Family Structures" (Dissertation. Wisconsin, 1979).
The basis of Ruricius' descent from the Anicii rests entirely upon Sidonius Apollinaris. I believe
that the beginning to any indepth discussion of this line ought to begin with the relevent quotation.
Does anyone have access to Apollinaris' letters?
Sincerely,
Kelsey J. Williams
The Williams Family
I notice that Toumanoff includes "Artavasde (630), exile en Espagne" in
his charts of the Mamikonians on pp. 334 & 340 of "Manuel de Genealogie et
de Chronologie" but he does not assign him to any specific place in the
pedigree.
Are the Papal archives of any use for tracing Italian families during
the period say 400 - 1100? It seems that a Roman descent might be found
among the indigenous nobility of Rome itself.
Sincerely,
Kelsey J. Williams
norenxaq
Francisco Antonio Doria wrote:
> There are some *myths* about Italian families (Orsini,
> Massimo) and also about French families such as the
> Lévis.
>
> The Colonnas can trace their ancestry up to the Counts
> of Tusculum, and that includes Marozia (there are some
> problems in the actual link between the first Colonna
> and the Counts of Tusculum, but assuredly there is
> some connection). I know of a so-called ``viscountal''
> descent for the Spinolas in Genoa, and I have also
> tried to identify the Arduino who is the
> semi-legendary ancestor of the Dorias (if the legend
> holds, there is a likely candidate in a gson of
> Arduino King of Italy; the Doria family would be their
> bastards, and their ancestry would be pushed up to the
> 8th century).
Hello:
I have heard that the Colonnas claim descent from an ancient Roman family.
Could you give any specifics about that? As well as the other families you
mention above, if possible.
Thank-you
Don Stone
One group of DFA's that hasn't been mentioned yet is descents from ancient
Judea to modern Jewish families. These descents generally go through
Babylonian exilarchs, i.e., leaders of the Jewish exile community in
Babylon, who always have been recognized as being descended in the male
line from King David. An example of such a descent is that of the Charlap
family, covered in Arthur F. Menton's _The Book of Destiny: Toledot
Charlap_ (1996) and _Ancilla to Toledot Charlap_ (1999). There is a
pedigree at the beginning of the latter volume which begins with King
David; the pedigree is somewhat garbled in a few places but can be largely
repaired by scholarly analysis. A presentation about the Shaltiels, a
different family with a Davidic lineage, will be made at Toronto this
August at the 22nd IAJGS (International Association of Jewish Genealogical
Societies) International Conference on Jewish Genealogy. I should point
out that a number of Jewish families claim descent from the exilarchs;
some of these families back up their claims with generation-by-generation
pedigrees, but the reliablity of these pedigrees varies considerably.
The number of printed scholarly treatments of these very long pedigrees is
currently very small, but I expect it to grow considerably in the next few
years, especially in view of the interesting results obtained from
analysis of the Y-chromosome DNA of Cohens.
-- Don Stone
D. Spencer Hines
Have some of the Sephardic families of New York City tracked these
lineages?
"The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he
didn't exist."
Roger 'Verbal' Kint [Kevin Spacey] in "The Usual Suspects" [1995].
----------
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor.
"Don Stone" <don....@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:3D17E44C...@verizon.net...
norenxaq
>
> One group of DFA's that hasn't been mentioned yet is descents from ancient
> Judea to modern Jewish families. These descents generally go through
> Babylonian exilarchs, i.e., leaders of the Jewish exile community in
> Babylon, who always have been recognized as being descended in the male
> line from King David. An example of such a descent is that of the Charlap
> family, covered in Arthur F. Menton's _The Book of Destiny: Toledot
> Charlap_ (1996) and _Ancilla to Toledot Charlap_ (1999). There is a
> pedigree at the beginning of the latter volume which begins with King
> David; the pedigree is somewhat garbled in a few places but can be largely
> repaired by scholarly analysis. A presentation about the Shaltiels, a
> different family with a Davidic lineage, will be made at Toronto this
> August at the 22nd IAJGS (International Association of Jewish Genealogical
> Societies) International Conference on Jewish Genealogy.
Hello:
Will there be a published work of the papers presented?
If so, how can one acquire a copy?
thank-you
David R. Teague
On Tue, 25 Jun 2002 03:32:25 GMT Don Stone <don....@verizon.net>
writes:
> Nathaniel Taylor wrote:
>
> > In article <3D1732C9...@cowboy.net>,
> > gkkwi...@cowboy.net (The Williams Family) wrote:
<snip>
> One group of DFA's that hasn't been mentioned yet is descents from
ancient Judea to modern Jewish families. These descents generally go
through Babylonian exilarchs, i.e., leaders of the Jewish exile community
in Babylon, who always have been recognized as being descended in the
male line from King David. An example of such a descent is that of the
Charlap family, covered in Arthur F. Menton's _The Book of Destiny:
Toledot Charlap_ (1996) and _Ancilla to Toledot Charlap_ (1999). There
is a pedigree at the beginning of the latter volume which begins with
King David; the pedigree is somewhat garbled in a few places but can be
largely repaired by scholarly analysis. A presentation about the
Shaltiels, a different family with a Davidic lineage, will be made at
Toronto this August at the 22nd IAJGS International Association of Jewish
Genealogical Societies) International Conference on Jewish Genealogy. I
should
point out that a number of Jewish families claim descent from the
exilarchs; some of these families back up their claims with
generation-by-generation pedigrees, but the reliablity of these pedigrees
varies considerably.
<snip>
IIRC, the Luria/Lurie family is also supposed to be of agnatic Davidic
descent. I wonder if anyone is aware of scholarly analysis of this
claim.
David Teague
________________________________________________________________
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norenxaq
"David R. Teague" wrote:
> Hello:
What is their claimed lineage?
Thank-you
Don Stone
>
> IIRC, the Luria/Lurie family is also supposed to be of agnatic Davidic
> descent. I wonder if anyone is aware of scholarly analysis of this
> claim.
There is a huge amount of information on the Lurias (and a huge amount of
disagreement) in Avotaynu, vol. 5, no. 1 (Spring 1989), vol. 6, no. 1
(Spring 1990), and vol. 6, no. 2 (Summer 1990). The disagreement seems to
stem largely from different methodologies. (There may be further material
on the Lurias in later issues of Avotaynu; I haven't checked). Much of
the material in these 1989 and 1990 issues dealt with the relationship
between the Lurias and Rashi. I didn't note a claim of agnatic Davidic
descent, but I wasn't studying these articles very closely.
-- Don Stone
Don Stone
[snip]
>>A presentation about the Shaltiels, a
>>different family with a Davidic lineage, will be made at Toronto this
>>August at the 22nd IAJGS (International Association of Jewish Genealogical
>>Societies) International Conference on Jewish Genealogy.
>
> Will there be a published work of the papers presented?
>
> If so, how can one acquire a copy?
From the FAQ section of the conference website
(http://www.jgstoronto2002.ca/):
CAN I ORDER TAPES OF THE PRESENTATIONS?
Virtually all of the Conference content will be taped (and in some cases
videotaped). Copies will be available for purchase at the Conference or
later by order form. Details will be posted here shortly.
-- Don Stone
Don Stone
> Very Interesting.
>
> Have some of the Sephardic families of New York City tracked these
> lineages?
I'm sure they have.
Dick Hyman, a noted New Yorker, is a Charlap descendant and is quite
interested in family history (as well as music). See Menton's _Book of
Destiny_ for details.
-- Don Stone
Francisco Antonio Doria
Don,
Is the Charlap line truly reliable? From what I've
read - just curiosity, no research on my part - I
thought it was as doubtful as any such lines.
chico
--- Don Stone <don....@verizon.net> escreveu: > D.
_______________________________________________________________________
Francisco Antonio Doria
Conde Ardabasto [Artavazd] is a historical figure.
Later pedigrees give him as the son of a Visigothic
nobleman descended from Leodegild and St Hermengild,
and of a niece of Mauricius, in Byzantium. This is
chronologically OK, and historically plausible. A
discussion here at gen-med with Settipani led to a
plausible link through Vardan III Mamikonian (believed
to be the brother of Artavazd IV) who was a exile at
Byzantium. Ken published the full discussion in _The
Plantagenet Connection_.
My own viewpoint is that a distorted memory of this
marriage between a lady of high Armenian lineage and a
(Western) Iberian nobleman led to the ``legend of the
Princess of Armenia,'' which inaugurates the so-called
Braganção pedigree in Northern Portugal, 11th century.
I have long heard this tale; it used to be told by an
aunt (my mother's family is traditionally seen as
descended from the Braganções) as a ghost story at
beditime - ``either you go to bed and remain quiet, or
the Princess of Armenia will haunt you during the wee
hours.''
chico
--- The Williams Family <gkkwi...@cowboy.net>
escreveu: > Hello,
_______________________________________________________________________
Francisco Antonio Doria
I suspect that if there were any reliable extensions
of the oldest Roman pedigrees, we would be discussing
them by now. As far as I can tell the oldest Italian
nobles all seem to be agnatically descended from cadet
branches of Lombard or so nobility, as I said. Re the
Guidi counts in Tuscany; the Alberti pedigree in
Florence; the very plausible Obertenghi and Aleramici
descents in the Saluzzo and del Carretto families, and
so on (I myself have some very very distant Aleramico
blood, as I'm descended from an Aleramo Doria, from a
highly obscure sub-branch of the co-lords of Oneglia,
who is attested in Portugal in 1557).
chico
--- The Williams Family <gkkwi...@cowboy.net>
escreveu: > Hello,
_______________________________________________________________________
Francisco Antonio Doria
Would you mind to take a look at the files? This
discussion happened here a couple of years ago; I was
part of it, and have been corrected by Pierre Aronax
and by Settipani. It is Settipani's view that they
were descended from the Counts of Tusculum and from
the house of Theophylactus through a female
connection.
chico
--- norenxaq <nore...@nethere.com> escreveu: >
_______________________________________________________________________
Nathaniel Taylor
gkkwi...@cowboy.net (The Williams Family) wrote:
> (Nat Taylor wrote):
>I think there is not as much unlikeliness about a link directly from the
>westerrn to the eastern Mediterranean as would appear at first glance.
>The Roman nobility were for the most part on the Imperial career track
>and would have traveled about quite a bit as proconsul, legate, etc.
>Even so, you're right about the relative "robustness" of the two DFAs;
>the Armenian one is distinctly stronger.
You're right about the cosmopolitanism of the senatorial aristocracy and
their competitors. I didn't mean that the Judea-to-Gaul-via-Anicii link
is implausible or 'unlikely', simply that the geographic transmigration
depends more on the specific filiation being right, than the multiple
opportunities for intermarriage between the Armenians and their
neighbors. Stewart Baldwin wrote well about this 'relative robustness'
concept a couple years ago here.
>"Continuite" seemed to me as I read it to be more of a general overview of
>Roman genealogy & prosopography than an indepth study. Settipani maddeningly
>passed over a number of families I'd like to see more work done on but he did
>devote nearly half the book to the Anicii and their relations,
>maintaing the focus set in "Les Ancetres." Ruricius himself however appears
>to outside the scope of "Continuite" and I don't believe there was any
>discussion of his connection with the Anicii.
Yes, Continuite treats male-line continuity, and Settipani proposes a
non-agnatic connection for Ruricius.
>Looking at what was established (or supposed) in "Les Ancetres de
>Charlemagne" there appear to be at least three more possible Gallo-Roman
>DFAs, namely:
>
>1) Fl. Afranius Syagrius, maternal grandfather of Tonantius Ferreolus, prefect
>of the Gauls in 451. Syagrius was consul in 382 and received a couple of
>pages in "Continuite" regarding some possible Roman descents. Unfortunately,
>when I was examining it on interlibrary loan I neglected to note the substance
>of these theories so I cannot offer anything definite.
>
>2) Probus. Son of Magnus (consul in 460), brother of Magnus Felix (prefect in
>469), nephew of an unknown African proconsul, first cousin of Camille, a
>senator of Arles (461) and probable father of Industria (wife of Ferreolus
>of Narbonne) and Firmin, senator of Arles (498/9). This family definitely
>seems to part of the Gallo-Roman ruling class and from the names I'd say they
>could quite possibly be of Roman or partial Roman descent.
>
>3) Eulalia, cousin-german of Sidonius Apollinaris, wife of Probus above. The
>connection with Sidonius is based on his "Carmina" (XXIV, 90, 94-8) and
>"Epistolae" (IV, 1, 1; III, 11, 1-2). Settipani writes (p. 134) that her
>genealogy is discussed at length in K. F. Stroheker, "Der senatorische Adel in
>spatantiken Gallien" (Tubingen, 1948) and Ralph Mathisen, "The Ecclesiastical
>Aristocracy of the Fifth-Century Gaul: A Regional Analysis of Family
>Structures" (Dissertation. Wisconsin, 1979).
The section at the end of Continuite (p. 504, etc.) mentions a number of
different possible demographic scenarios for further digging into
continuity, in Gaul, the Rhineland, Spain, Byzantium, etc. The trick is
finding plausible ways to carry these forward.
>The basis of Ruricius' descent from the Anicii rests entirely upon Sidonius
>Apollinaris. I believe that the beginning to any indepth discussion of this
>line ought to begin with the relevent quotation. Does anyone have access to
>Apollinaris' letters?
Not handy, but a discussion of the known data on Ruricius' ancestry
would be welcome.
Nat Taylor
Stewart, Peter
> From: Don Stone [mailto:don....@verizon.net]
> Sent: Tuesday, 25 June 2002 13:32
> To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
> Subject: Re: Plantagenet Descents From Ancient Judea
>
> One group of DFA's that hasn't been mentioned yet is descents
> from ancient Judea to modern Jewish families.
Do you know of any recent attempt to find such a descent for a Samaritan
family? I have seen the genealogy of a medieval priestly line, which covered
only five generations but suggested the possibility that more could be
discovered due to the comparative isolation and peace of the community in
Nablus through the crusades. Perhaps subsequent events have torn that
prospect - I never pursued the literature.
Peter Stewart
deVere
I knew the deVere's were descendents of Julius Caesar by virtue of
Charlemagne but I did not realize the Herods were part of the tree
"Stewart, Peter" <Peter....@crsrehab.gov.au> wrote in message
news:BE9CF8DEAB7ED311B05E...@v003138e.crsrehab.gov.au...
D. Spencer Hines
people.
People don't read the caveats...
Non Compos Mentis.
Deus Vult.
"The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he
didn't exist."
Roger 'Verbal' Kint [Kevin Spacey] in "The Usual Suspects" [1995].
All replies to the newsgroup please. Thank you kindly.
All original material contained herein is copyright and property of the
author. It may be quoted only in discussions on this forum and with an
attribution to the author, unless permission is otherwise expressly given,
in writing.
----------
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor.
"deVere" <dev...@istop.com> wrote in message news:3d19...@news.eol.ca...
| Neat
| I knew the deVere's were descendents of Julius Caesar by virtue of
| Charlemagne but I did not realize the Herods were part of the tree.
malinda
elsewhere in Europe that traces its descent from Solomon SPIRA (14th cent.),
a descendant of RASHI (1040-1105). The name apparently comes from the
Italian town of Loria, near Bassano, although some historians say the name
is
derived from the Loire Valley in France.
Solomon Spira (above) was son of Samuel Spirah [son of Isaac (Ribam),
son
of Meir Ben Samuel (1065-1135) m.Jochebed, dau of Solomon (Rashi) of
Troyes, France (1040-1105) a Davidic descent through Shephatiah of 900
years to HILLEL the Great (70 BC-10BC) whose son Simeon Ha-Nasi whose
son Rabbi Gamiel the Elder was the progenitor in the 4th generation, his
g-grt
grandson Johanan Ha-Sandalar of Egypt (2nd cent. AD). Thirty two
generations later to Solomon (Rashi) of Troyes, France (1040-1105).
Back to Samuel (Spira) who m. a dau.of Mattithiah Treves of Provence
(1325-1387), son of Rabbi Joseph Treves of Marseilles, France (14th cent.),
direct desc. of Judah Sir Leon of Paris (1166-1224), son of Isaac, son of
Judah,
son of Yomtov, son of Judah ben Nathan who m. Miriam, dau of Solomon
(Rashi) of Troyes, France (1040-1105).
malinda
others
will also follow. Some have sources included, some do not. I am not
qualified to discuss any of this material...and my cousin has limited
amounts
of time on a sporadic basis, so is not generally available for discussion.
Take it or leave it as you will....all with the usual provisos.
~malinda
Oh, boy, this is the kind of data that requires much time and I find very
interesting. #25 Bodegisal "Dux"shown as ambassador to Byzantium, was born
552-5; was murdered 588, Carthage, Africa returning from an embassy at
Constantinople, where he appears to have been Governor of Aquitaine. He m.
Crodoare (later St. Oda) a Suevian who was b. 560 d.634. His parents have
not been proven by anyone to my knowledge. Some authors say his father was
Bodegisal I, brother of (St.) Gondolfus, Bishop of Tongres, occ. 599. In
either case, their father is shown to be Munderic, Lord of
Vitry-en-Parthois.
b. c.500, killed by Thierry I in 532 in a revolt. Munderic m.Arthemia of
Geneva,
is thought to be a sister of Sacerdos, Gallo-Roman Archbishop of Lyons,
542-559.
The descent to Munderic (above) is interesting as you will see: His father
was Cloderic "the Parricide," King of Cologne, b. abt. 470-5; murdered in
509
by agents of his cousin Clovis I. He married a dau.of Agilolf, King of the
Lombards
(590-616), Duke of Turin, who m.Theudelinde of Bavaria (dau. of Garibald I,
Duke of Bavaria, d. 592; m.(3) Waldrada, dau. of Wacho, King of the Lombards
(c510-540) m.(2) c. 512 Austigusa (Ostrogotha), princess of the Gepidae, dau
of Elemund, King of the Gipidae) Theodelinde of Bavaria m. (1) Authari, King
of the Lombards, d.590 (son of Cleph who succeeded Alboin). This descents to
Hildegard, Countess of Linzgau b.758; d.30 Apr 783 who m. 771 Charlemagne.
Returning to Munderic descent (above). Cloderic "the Parricide" was son of
Siegbert I "the Lame," King of Cologne, b.abt. 445; murdered 509 by his own
son Cloderic, at the instigation of Clovis I, King of the Salic Franks
(481-511).
Cloderic "the Parricide" m. Theodelinde of Bourgogne.
Siegbert I "the Lame" was son of Childebert, King of Cologne, liv. c.450 m.
Amalberge des Francs b. 435; d. 478, dau.of Clodoweg des Francs m.
Weldelphe of Saxony, b.410. Childebert (above) was son of Clovis
"the Riparian," Frankish King of Cologne b. 398; d 448; m. N.N. a
Merovingian, liv. 420. Clovis "the Riparian," was son of Theodemer and
Bleswinde des Francs, dau of Chlogio I.
Theodemer was son of Ricomer des Francs Ripuaires (350?-384?) m.
bef. 374 Ascyla (354?-413?) dau. of Ascyllius b.334.
Ricomer des Francs was son of Mallobaudes des Francs Ripuaires
(320?-378?) m. N.N. of Gauls. Mallobaudes was bro.
of Priaros des Francs, sons of Malaric des Francs Ripuaires (295?-360?).
Malaric was the son of Ragaise des Francs Ripuaires (270?-289?), son of
Genebaud I des Francs Ripuaires (245-289), son of Marcomir, King of
Franks (220-281).
Ha! When I figure out who the Marcomir, King of Franks (above) is I shall
continue....
Hugs, J.
Don Stone
>
> Don,
>
> Is the Charlap line truly reliable? From what I've
> read - just curiosity, no research on my part - I
> thought it was as doubtful as any such lines.
As I mentioned, the line as given by Menton is somewhat garbled in places,
especially the generations surrounding Bustanai (b. ca. 626). I think that
Menton relied too heavily on pedigrees supplied by various family members
and didn't sufficiently explore modern scholarship relating to the
individuals in this period. Someone looking at this part of Menton's
work might very well be unconvinced.
But if you investigate some of the modern scholarship in this area, you
can see how the line can be repaired in various places. Of course, there
are still a few cases where, for example, Y is the grandson or
great-grandson of X but the intervening generation or generations are not
clear. But an agnatic (male-line) descent from the Kings of Judah to
the Exilarch Hezekiah, executed ca. 1050, seems quite defensible. (See,
for example, David Goodblatt, _The Monarchic Principle: Studies in Jewish
Self-Government in Antiquity_ (1994), and Kenneth E. Pomykala, _The
Davidic Dynasty Tradition in Early Judaism: Its History and Significance
for Messianism_ (1995).)
Hezekiah's two sons fled to Spain and there established the Ibn Yahya
family, some of whose members became very influential in Portugal in such
roles as advisor to the king, military leader, religious scholar, poet,
court astrologer, and physician to the king. Not surprisingly, these
people are rather well documented. Later generations of the family, in
Italy, Egypt, Greece, and Poland, are also adequately documented.
So, yes, I think a good case can be made for the Charlap line, but I still
would like to see good scholarly treatments of the segments of this line
(and I expect that I will, over the next several years).
-- Don Stone
Don Stone
No, I'm not familiar with any Samaritan descents.
-- Don Stone
Francisco Antonio Doria
Up to Sigebert le Boiteux is Settipani's
reconstruction. The two generations up to Clovis the
Ripuarian are, hum... Before that, just speculation,
and probably lots of mythical material.
chico
--- malinda <mthi...@swbell.net> escreveu: > This is
_______________________________________________________________________
David R. Teague
I've ever seen the line sketched out in this much detail. Usually, all
I've managed to find is a passing reference to the fact that the line is
claimed.
David Teague
Francisco Antonio Doria
There is a complete descent table in D. Rothenberg,
_Finding our Fathers_.
chico
--- "David R. Teague" <davt...@juno.com> escreveu:
_______________________________________________________________________
jl soler
ancetre?"
"Jon Meltzer" <jonme...@mindspring.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
hs9jhu4hlqdccmier...@4ax.com...
> On 25 Jun 2002 20:16:23 -0600, mthi...@swbell.net (malinda) wrote:
>
> > Siegbert I "the Lame" was son of Childebert, King of Cologne, liv. c.450
m.
> >Amalberge des Francs b. 435; d. 478, dau.of Clodoweg des Francs m.
> >Weldelphe of Saxony, b.410. Childebert (above) was son of Clovis
> >"the Riparian," Frankish King of Cologne b. 398; d 448; m. N.N. a
> >Merovingian, liv. 420. Clovis "the Riparian," was son of Theodemer and
> >Bleswinde des Francs, dau of Chlogio I.
> >
> > Theodemer was son of Ricomer des Francs Ripuaires (350?-384?) m.
> >bef. 374 Ascyla (354?-413?) dau. of Ascyllius b.334.
> >Ricomer des Francs was son of Mallobaudes des Francs Ripuaires
> >(320?-378?) m. N.N. of Gauls. Mallobaudes was bro.
> >of Priaros des Francs, sons of Malaric des Francs Ripuaires (295?-360?).
> >
> > Malaric was the son of Ragaise des Francs Ripuaires (270?-289?), son of
> >Genebaud I des Francs Ripuaires (245-289), son of Marcomir, King of
> >Franks (220-281).
>
> I have seen absolutely no evidence that any of these people ever
> existed. That includes the mentions of good old "Clovis the Riparian"
> in AR and elsewhere.
>
>
Francisco Antonio Doria
You mean that he rehabilitates the Priamus -
Genebaldus - Mallobaldus line? I thought it was
throughly discredited; I had it from the early 18th
century Portuguese genealogist D. António Caetano de
Sousa, who got it, I think, from Père Anselme.
chico
--- jl soler <zgl...@wanadoo.fr> escreveu: > the line
_______________________________________________________________________
Francisco Antonio Doria
In some questions I posed Settipani, perhaps here at
gen-med, I had the line Richimir - Théodémir -
Clodion, which (if I correctly recall) he gave me as
correct (I'm not at home, so I don't have the
references handy; am quoting from memory).
chico
--- jl soler <zgl...@wanadoo.fr> escreveu: > the line
_______________________________________________________________________
The...@aol.com
Dear Chico, Malinda, et al.,
Many thanks for some extremely helpful posts to an interesting thread.
Probably safe to say, a descent from Rashi would probably be as highly
prized as one from Edward III of England..... Probably more so, given the
difficulty (in most cases, impossibility) of documenting such a descent in
what we might call the 'conventional' method.
Chico, thanks for the referral to Dan Rottenberg's book. I find the
pertinent tables running from pp. 10 through 14.
Two problematic observations as to the notion of these charts documenting
a 'Descent from Ancient Judaea' :
1. Chart B, on p. 11, gives the descent from King
David to Rabbi Solomon ben Isaac [aka Rashi], who
fl. 1040-1105. The chart as presented gives the
following:
' David (1043-973 B.C.E.) [1]
I
Shephatiah
I
I
< 900 Years >
I
I
Hillel the Great (70 B.C.E. - 10 C.E.)
I
Simeon Ha-Nasi
I
Rabbi Gamaliel the Elder
I
I
< 3 generations >
I
I ' and so on......
All told, there are approximately 55 generations
missing in this chart ('900 years' I approximate
as 32 generations, added to the 23 shown as
missing in the chart).
This is somewhat comparable to my (theoretically)
posting a chart of a descent from the Emperor
Augustus, reflecting details only from say
Charlemagne to Edward I.
2. Helpfully, Rottenberg states on p. 10 preceding
these charts,
' Chart B, which covers the 2,000 years from David
to Rashi, is taken from Ma'alot Ha-Yu-hasin, by
Ephraim Zalman Margolioth of Galicia (1762-1828),
himself a descendant of Rashi. This chart was
apparently concocted in seventeenth-century
Italy, and Judaica scholars agree with surprising
unanimity that it is total nonsense, but I pass
it on here for curiosity's sake. '
If anyone might have something that would solidify Rashi's descent
(whether from King David or anyone else besides his father Isaac), that would
be interesting indeed.
Good luck, and good hunting.
John *
NOTES
[1] For anyone not used to this dating method, in
Jewish or other non-Christian chronology the
expressions equate as follows:
'Before Christ' B.C. = B.C.E. ' Before the
Common Era '
'Anno Domini' A.D. = C.E. ' Common Era '
* John P. Ravilious
Peter Stewart
> >The basis of Ruricius' descent from the Anicii rests entirely upon Sidonius
> >Apollinaris. I believe that the beginning to any indepth discussion of this
> >line ought to begin with the relevent quotation. Does anyone have access to
> >Apollinaris' letters?
>
> Not handy, but a discussion of the known data on Ruricius' ancestry
> would be welcome.
>
> Nat Taylor
Sidonius Apollinaris wrote an epithalamium when Hiberia, the daughter
of his friend Ommatius, married Ruricius. This is just a tissue of
classical allusions, with no suggestion of the bridegroom's descent
from the Anicii. General nobility and the bride's patrician ancestry
are referred to, the latter in a compliment to Ommatius (vir
clarissimus in Auvergne).
The source for a link between the Ruricii and the Anicii is a joint
epitaph for Ruricius and his namesake grandson & successor as bishop
of Limoges (they were buried in the same tomb). This was written by
Venantius Fortunatus at the end of the 6th century. The relevant lines
are 7-8, as follows:
Ruricii gemini flores, quibus Aniciorum
iuncta parentali culmine Roma fuit
Trans: The twin Rurician flowers, to whom Rome was linked through the
lofty relationship of the Anicii.... [_Venanti Honori Clementiani
Fortunati, Presbyteri Italici, Opera Poetica_, edited by Friedrich
Leo, Monumenta Germaniae Historica, Auctores Antiquissimi 4, second
edition (Berlin, 1961), p 83].
That is all there is - as far as I know the few hagiographical
writings about Ruricius do not allude to this (as indeed there is no
moral virtue in blue blood).
JR Martindale in _The Prosopography of the Later Roman Empire_, vol 2
AD 395-527 (Cambridge, 1980) and Karl Friedrich Stroheker in _Der
senatorische Adel im spätantiken Gallien_ (Tübingen, 1948, reprint
Darmstadt, 1970) do not provide any further leads.
Peter Stewart
Nathaniel Taylor
peter....@crsrehab.gov.au (Peter Stewart) wrote:
>Nathaniel Taylor <nta...@post.harvard.edu> wrote in message
>news:<ntaylor-C8099C...@nnrp05.earthlink.net>...
>
>> A discussion of the known data on Ruricius' ancestry
>> would be welcome.
>
>The source for a link between the Ruricii and the Anicii is a joint
>epitaph for Ruricius and his namesake grandson & successor as bishop
>of Limoges (they were buried in the same tomb). This was written by
>Venantius Fortunatus at the end of the 6th century. The relevant lines
>are 7-8, as follows:
>
> Ruricii gemini flores, quibus Aniciorum
> iuncta parentali culmine Roma fuit
>
>Trans: The twin Rurician flowers, to whom Rome was linked through the
>lofty relationship of the Anicii.... [_Venanti Honori Clementiani
>Fortunati, Presbyteri Italici, Opera Poetica_, edited by Friedrich
>Leo, Monumenta Germaniae Historica, Auctores Antiquissimi 4, second
>edition (Berlin, 1961), p 83].
Yes, I've scratched my head over this couplet a few times. Peter is
right, this does not leave much to go on. But the two published
potential ancestries (those by Settipani and by Mommaerts/Kelley) build
a great deal on from there. They are worth comparing. As I said, I
have spoken with another genealogist who has gone over both speculations
in great detail and intends to publish a third exploration of possible
ancestries and connections for Ruricius, though he has asked that I not
share his work before it is ready.
Nat Taylor
Peter Stewart
Can you at least tell us if the possible ancestry being explored links
through Sextus Claudius Petronius Probus, described as "Anicianae
domus culmen"? He was the praetorian prefect of Gaul in 366, and
Martin Heinzelmann plausibly suggested him as the main suspect [in
_Bischofherrschaft in Gallien, zur Kontinuität römischer
Führungsschichten vom 4 bis 7 Jahrhundert: Soziale, prosopographische
und bildungsgeschichtliche Aspekte_, Beihefte der Francia 5 (Zurich &
Munich, 1976)].
Peter Stewart
Todd A. Farmerie
> Neat
> I knew the deVere's were descendents of Julius Caesar by virtue of
> Charlemagne but I did not realize the Herods were part of the tree
Not so neat. I suspect the descent you have in mind (from Julius
Caesar) is bogus. Only the most inventive of genealogists claim
such a descent.
taf
Brant Gibbard
<farm...@interfold.com> wrote:
>Not so neat. I suspect the descent you have in mind (from Julius
>Caesar) is bogus. Only the most inventive of genealogists claim
>such a descent.
Did Julius Caesar even have any descendants beyond the level of
grandchildren or so? I suppose Gnaeus or Sextus Pompeius might have had
descendants, but if so I don't remember reading about them.
Brant Gibbard
bgib...@ca.inter.net
http://pages.ca.inter.net/~bgibbard/gen/
Toronto, ON
Chris Bennett
"Brant Gibbard" <bgib...@inforamp.net> wrote in message
news:eb2aiu86k42ij2h1r...@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 04 Jul 2002 19:35:13 -0600, "Todd A. Farmerie"
> <farm...@interfold.com> wrote:
>
>
> >Not so neat. I suspect the descent you have in mind (from Julius
> >Caesar) is bogus. Only the most inventive of genealogists claim
> >such a descent.
>
> Did Julius Caesar even have any descendants beyond the level of
> grandchildren or so? I suppose Gnaeus or Sextus Pompeius might have had
> descendants, but if so I don't remember reading about them.
>
Its doubted he had any descendants beyond the level of children. We know
he had one daughter, Julia, and a son Caesarion by Cleopatra, although the
latter's paternity was disputed in ancient times and occasionally in modern
times; neither had children. Although he is said to have bedded half the
senator's wives in Rome, there are no acknowledged bastards (this indeed
being one of the arguments used against the claim that Caesarion was his
son, since it supposedly shows his sterility). R Syme, Historia 29 (1980)
422, constructs plausibility arguments suggesting that Decimus Brutus and
Dolabella might have been two such sons. A Gaul, Flavius Sabinus claimed in
the 70s AD to be descended from Caesar through his great-grandmother.
Tacitus, who reports the claim, does not believe it, though there doesnt
seem to be anything inherently impausible about it.
Brant Gibbard
<cjbe...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>Its doubted he had any descendants beyond the level of children. We know
>he had one daughter, Julia, and a son Caesarion by Cleopatra, although the
>latter's paternity was disputed in ancient times and occasionally in modern
>times; neither had children.
You're right, I was mistakenly thinking Gnaeus and Sextus were children
of Pompey and Julia, but I see now that the elder, at least, was a son
of a different wife, Mucia.