Hello Douglas et al.,

      I have compiled the following MC line, although I'm not certain as to
whether or not it provides 'new' information [given the newest individual
referenced died ca. 1637.].  This is being provided for the general
information of the list, of those members of SGM with Farrar and related
ancestry (Brom, Richard, etc.), and also for Douglas Richardson's
consideration re: the forthcoming MC book.

      The main source I have re: the Salvain/Salvin family comes from our
friends at Burke's, when would usually provide small comfort re: generations
7 & 8; however, given the connections evidenced in CP and the Visitation
pedigrees as to the other generations, and the fact that the chronology does
not present a problem, I am presenting this line as is for general review and
comment.

..1. Sir Robert de Ros, of Helmsley in Holderness, co. York and Wark,
Northumberland; d. bef 23 Dec 1226; Surety of the Magna Carta; m. Isabel,
illegitimate daughter of William _the Lion_, King of Scots.    (1), (2), (3),
(4)

..2. Robert de Ros, of Wark, Northumberland and Sanquhar, Nithsdale, 2nd son;
Justice of Kings Bench, 1234; d. 1269; m. Christian Bertram, daughter of
Roger Bertram, of Mitford, Northumberland (d. 1241) and Agnes [coheiress in
her issue of niece Agnes Bertram].   (1), (3), (4)

..3. Robert de Ros, of Wark, Northumberland, 2nd son (made heir of father);
d. bef 20 Apr 1274; m. Margaret Brus, 3rd daughter of Piers de Brus of
Skelton and Danby in Cleveland (d. 1240) and Hawise de Lancaster, coheiress
of her brother Piers (III) de Brus.   (1), (3), (4)

..4. Robert de Ros, of Wark, Northumberland; summoned to Parliament from 24
June 1295 (lst Lord Ros of Wark); supporter of Scots cause, victor at Wark,
March 1296 [forfeited]; d. after Mar 1296; m. Laura ______ (1), (4)

..5. Margaret de Ros, daughter and coheiress, claimed to have obtained an
exemplification of letters patent (1312) pardoning her father's forfeiture;
m. John Salvain, son and heir of Gerard Salvain of North Duffield, co. York;
d.v.p. bef 3 May 1320.   (1), (4), (5)

..6. Sir Gerard Salvain, of North Duffield and Herswell, co. York; Sheriff of
Yorkshire 1351; obtained manor of Bellester, Tynedale in connection with the
exemplification of letters patent (above), 26 June 41st Edw III [1367]; d.
ca. 1370; m. 1st Agnes Mauleverer, daughter of Robert Mauleverer.  (4), (5)

..7. John Salvain or Salvin, heir of his father; d.v.p. before 1370.   (4),
(5)

..8. Sir Gerard Salvin, of North Duffield and Herswell, co. York; Sheriff of
Yorkshire; m. Alice.   (4), (5), (6)

..9. Muriel Salvin [unnamed in Visitation pedigree], d. 1441; m. Sir Gerard
Soothill, of Redbourne, Lincs.; Sheriff of Lincolnshire.   (5), (6)

.10. Sir Gerard Soothill, of Redbourne, Lincs. and Brierly [Brearley], co.
York; d. ca. 1464; m. 1stly, Elizabeth Fulnetby, dau. of John Fulnetby.  
(6), (7)

.11. Johanna Soothill, heiress of Brearley Hall, co. York, d. after 28 June
1492; m. Gilbert Lacy, of Brearley Hall (dju), 3rd son of John Lacy of
Cromwellbotham; d. bef 6 Oct 1492. (6), (7)

.12. Gerard Lacy, of Brearley Hall, d. aft 2 Jul 1503; m. Joan Symmes,
daughter of Richard Symmes of Barnsley, co. York. (7)

.13. Hugh Lacy, of Brearley Hall, d. bef 31 Jul 1573; m. Agnes Savile,
daughter of Nicholas Savile of New Hall in Eland, co. York, and Margery
Wilkinson.  (7), (8), (9), (10)

.14, Margaret Lacy, d. after 28 Dec 1571; m. William Farrar, of Ewood in
Midgely, co. York; d. before 3 Apr 1573.  (7), (8), (9), (10)

.15. John Farrar, Esq., of Croxton, co. Lincs. & c.; d. before 26 May 1628;
m. 25 Aug 1574 to Cecily Kelke, daughter and heiress of William Kelke,
mercer, of Barnetby le Wold and London (d. bef 28 June 1552).  (6), (7), (8),
(10)

.16. William Farrar, of Hoddesdon, Bloxborne and Amwell, Herts.; emigrated to
Virginia 1618; planter, of 'Jordan's Journey', and of Henrico Co., Virginia;
d. aft 11 June 1637; m. Cecily  _____, widow of Samuel Jordan.  (7), (8),
(9), (10)

Sources :
(1) Complete Peerage, Vol XI (Ros of Helmsley, Ros of Wark), pp. 89-122
(2) Scots Peerage, Vol I (Kings of Scots)
(3) The Magna Carta Sureties, 5th ed. (1999), pp. 152, 155
(4) Burke's Dormant, Abeyant, Forfeited and Extinct Peerages [Ros of Wark]
(5) Burke's Commoners of Great Britain and Ireland, Vol. I, pp. 533-534
(Salvain)
(6) Visitation of Lincolnshire (Harleian Soc. series), pedigree of
Soothill/Soothill of West Rasen; pedigree of Kelke of Barnetby
(7) The Farrar's Island Family, Alvahn Holmes
(8) Visitation of Hertfordshire (Harleian Soc. serties), pedigree of Farrer
of Great Amwell
(9) Halifax Wills, ed. J.W. Clay, FSA and E. W. Crossley (2 vols.)
(10) Plantagenet Ancestry, 2nd ed., David Faris (NEHGS, 1999)- Kelke, Farrar

      As always, commentary and criticism is welcome, and expected.

      Good luck, and good hunting.

                               John    

Good Morning Hap,

    With regard to the family of Sir Roger Bertram (d. 6 Mar 1271/72), the
best source I've found is CP Vol II, pp. 159-162, evidently re-written by G.
W. Watson.

    This article clearly states that Roger II's wife was Agnes (p. 160),
citing as a source, Patent Rolls, 33 Hen III, m. 5 and 37 Hen III, m. 2.  I
just looked at MC5, and the identification there, alleged to be based on CP,
obviously is a misread of the parentage of Christian Bertram from CP p. 162.

    The family of Bertram of Mitford, Northumberland (showing all four
sisters of Sir Roger) based on CP Vol II is as follows:

                William Bertram    =    Alice
                 [II] of Mitford   I   d'Umfraville
                                   I   d. aft 20 Aug 1253
                                   I
                            Roger Bertram     =  Agnes
                          [II] of Mitford     I
                      d. bef 24 May 1242      I
     _________________________________________I___________
     I                                                    I
   Roger         Agnes       Isabel      Christian      Ada
 Bertram     = Sir Thomas   =  Sir     =1)__ de      = Simon
 =  Ida      FitzWilliam    Philip       Penbury     de Vere
             of Emley        Darcy     2)Sir Robert     of
            &Sprotborough               de Ros       Goxhill

    As noted on p. 162, the heirs of Sir Roger Bertram (or of his daughter
Agnes, whose death date is uncertain) were found in 29 Jan 1310/11 to be:

    1) Sir William fitz William of Sprotborough, grandson of
Agnes Bertram.
    2) Sir Philip Darcy of Coningsby, co. Lincoln, grandson of Isabel Bertram.
    3) Elias de Penbury or de Penulbury, of Pendlebury, co. lancaster, son of
Christian Bertram.
    4) Sir Gilbert d'Aton, (maternal) grandson of Ada Bertram.

    Hope this helps.  

                                        John

Sanders lists some of the spouses for some of the Bertram generations,
but does not name the wives of Roger II or Roger III. He shows that
Agnes, daughter of Roger III gave the barony of Mitford,
Northumberland to her kinswoman Eleanor de Geneva and also states that
her heirs were her father's four sisters, none named.

Thanks you very much for looking this up for me when I should have
been able to find it myself :)

Hap

CP is a treasure-trove of Genealogical and Historical goodies ---- a
fascinating publication, indeed.

Volume XIV explains how it came to be, and who the editors have been, in
a brief introductory essay ---- _A Brief History of *The Complete
Peerage*_.

Essential Reading For Serious Genealogists ---- Even Amateurs.

"The proper study of mankind is woman and, by common agreement since the
time of Adam, it is the most complex and arduous." -- Henry Brooks Adams
[1838-1918] -- _Mont-Saint Michel and Chartres_

All replies to the newsgroup please.  Thank you kindly.

All original material contained herein is copyright and property of the
author.  It may be quoted only in discussions on this forum and with an
attribution to the author, unless permission is otherwise expressly
given, in writing.
------------------

D. Spencer Hines

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Vires et Honor.

A follow up question below:

<snip>

Hap

Hello Hap,

      Glad to be of help.  From what I've seen in the archives, the Bertrams
of Mitford have contributed almost as much to genealogical confusion as they
have to the gene pool........ :)

      Re: The Darcy -D'Aton connection, unfortunately the Visitation
(Yorkshire) pedigree for Aton and Vesci (pp. 10-11 in the Harleian Series,
Vol. 16) is not helpful as to siblings of the heirs of the Atons until the
last 'Sir William of Atton, Knight'.  However, CP, Vol. IV (Darcy of Knaith),
p. 55 note a does provide the following concerning Sir John (d. 30 May 1347),
son of Sir Roger Darcy and Isabel D'Aton :

   [in documenting Roger's position as younger brother of Sir Norman Darcy : ]

    ' Letters of receipt dated xv kal. Julii 14 Edw. II, by the proxy "domini
Johannis filii domini Rogeri Darcy militis," in execution of the will of the
Lady Isabel, mother of the said John. (Addit. Charter, no. 16775).  In 17
Edw. II (writ 26 Oct. 1323) John son of Roger Darcy claimed 3 messuages, &
c., in Swyndene, co. York, "que Gilbertus de Aton' dedit Isabelle de Aton' et
heredibus de corpore ipsius Isabelle exeuntibus et que post mortem predicte
Isabelle prefato Johanni filio Rogeri fil' et her' ejusdem Isabelle
descendere debent per formam donacionis predicte." (De Bancs, Easter, 17 Edw.
II, m. 141 d; Trinity, 18 Edw. II, m. 196 d).  Gilbert was br. of Isabel, and
s. and h. of William d'Aton; he d.s.p. before 1285.'

     In taking the above information into the pedigree of Aton (Visitation of
Yorkshire, Harleian ser. vol 16, pp. 10-11) I come up with the following (my
insertion marked with an asterisk *):

            Gilbert de Aton   =  Margaret Vessy
                               I
                               I
            Sir William de Atton Knight  =
                                         I
  _______________________________________I____________
  I                     I                              I
Gilbert of Atton     Sir William of Aton     * Isabel D'Aton
dyed sans issu.     Knight & heyr of the       = Sir Roger
                       Vessyes.                  Darcy
                         I
                         I
        Sir Gylbert de Atton Knight, and Lord Vessy
         by the death of John
                         I
   ______________________I____________________________
  I                                          I   I   I
Sir William of  = Izabell            William  Gylbert  Izabel
  Atton,          I                    Atton   Atton   Atton
last heyr of      I                    { died yonge. }
 the Vessys.      I        
                  I

     This seems to work chronologically.  I note that Philip, Lord Darcy of
Knaith, great-grandson of Isabel D'Aton died in 1399 at the age of 46; Henry
Bromflete, Lord Vescy, ggg grandson of Sir William D'Aton (brother of
Isabel), d. in January 1468/69 (see CP Vol XII/2, pp. 285 et seq.).

     Perhaps someone else in the list as a better handle on the Atons ....?

     Good luck, and good hunting.

                                John