In article <00ae01c1c442$3387ada0$48977a3f@monkey>, mon...@getgoin.net
(Janet Ariciu) wrote: >My local LDS Church has been wonderful in helping me with my family >research. ... [T]heir medieval facts must go through a lot of >researchers before it is post as fact. They have Medieval department who do >just that. ...
By 'their medieval facts' do you mean to refer to data on medieval persons included in LDS databases such as the 'Ancestral File'? As with all their data, there is a great deal of false stuff there, either contributed by individual researchers with no understanding of good genealogy or of medieval people, or extracted by well-meaning trained people from sources which simply contain errors. As for the 'medieval department', didn't Paul Reed post, some time ago, a brief summary of the history of the 'medieval unit' at the LDS FHL? I remember him narrating how at one point such a unit existed and sought to serve as a 'fact filter' for early data in the ancestral file, but it essentially gave up the task as hopeless.
>In a message dated 3/4/02 9:56:36 PM, reitwies...@stop.mail-abuse.org writes:
><< >Are there descendants of Inca royalty among Europe's nobility? And if so, >how >>do they specifically descend from the Inca royal family? >See, for instance, *Europaeische Stammtafeln*, ed. Schwennicke, Band IX >[1987], Tafel 16. >>
>This is not truly helpful to one who is not near these sources or to a person >who does not read German. Surely that Tafel 16 says something to answer the >question. Why would one look up the Tafel and not give a sense of the >information included?
Okay, here's a sense of the information:
The marriage in question (which introduced a line from the Inca royal family into a European noble family) occurred around AD 1610, which is outside the time period of this forum. All of the descendants of the marriage (European nobles with Inca royal ancestry) lived outside of the time period of this forum, and are thus inappropriate for discussion here.
'Ancestral File' NO! This work is done by people like you and me. That is why these records must be taken with grain of salt.
I am talking about the fact that the church has people who goes to Churches in England/other countries. They read the Church records as back as they can. They even read Tombstone too. You can find on the webpage Christening records as far back as they can copy. Some family records date from 700s and some only 1000s. You must click on Europe sections to find all this information.
Stay away from Ancestral files some people like to post their families as they think they are not as they really are. All this does is help get all the information on your family. Then you must search to see they are right or not. I will tell this I was looking for my Green family, which I knew was in Platte County, Missouri. There was person who posted the family my Green with a 2nd wife and also posted the 2nd wife family. I when digging to see if this person was right in saying that my Green had 2nd wife and the facts on this 2nd wife were right. She was right but had left out one daughter. That daughter m'd before 1850 and so she did not know about her. That daughter was my ggreatgrandmother.
So some times 'Ancestral File' will help you but again I warn you, Please double check it for you think it is the truth.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Nathaniel Taylor" <ntay...@post.harvard.edu> To: <GEN-MEDIEVA...@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2002 7:23 PM Subject: Re: medieval data in LDS AF (was: cabinet des titres)
> In article <00ae01c1c442$3387ada0$48977a3f@monkey>, mon...@getgoin.net > (Janet Ariciu) wrote:
> >My local LDS Church has been wonderful in helping me with my family > >research. ... [T]heir medieval facts must go through a lot of > >researchers before it is post as fact. They have Medieval department who do > >just that. ...
> By 'their medieval facts' do you mean to refer to data on medieval persons > included in LDS databases such as the 'Ancestral File'? As with all their > data, there is a great deal of false stuff there, either contributed by > individual researchers with no understanding of good genealogy or of > medieval people, or extracted by well-meaning trained people from sources > which simply contain errors. As for the 'medieval department', didn't > Paul Reed post, some time ago, a brief summary of the history of the > 'medieval unit' at the LDS FHL? I remember him narrating how at one point > such a unit existed and sought to serve as a 'fact filter' for early data > in the ancestral file, but it essentially gave up the task as hopeless.
>> In article <00ae01c1c442$3387ada0$48977a3f@monkey>, mon...@getgoin.net >> (Janet Ariciu) wrote:
>>> My local LDS Church has been wonderful in helping me with my family >>> research. ... [T]heir medieval facts must go through a lot of >>> researchers before it is post as fact. They have Medieval department >>> who do just that. ...
>> By 'their medieval facts' do you mean to refer to data on medieval persons >> included in LDS databases such as the 'Ancestral File'? ... Didn't >> Paul Reed post, some time ago, a brief summary of the history of the >> 'medieval unit' at the LDS FHL? I remember him narrating how at one point >> such a unit existed and sought to serve as a 'fact filter' for early data >> in the ancestral file, but it essentially gave up the task as hopeless. >'Ancestral File' NO! ... >I am talking about the fact that the Church has people who go to churches >in England/other countries. They read the church records as back as they >can. They even read tombstone[s] too. You can find on the webpage christening >records as far back as they can copy. Some family records date from >700s and some only 1000s.
You are referring to 'extracted' records, copied en masse, by qualified copyists, from sources such as parish registers. I doubt there is any such material in the LDS databases from before the regular proliferation of baptismal registers, etc., at the end of the Middle Ages (e.g., the early 16th century in England). No European church has preserved compiled 'Christening records' from the '700s' or even the '1000s', except individual data in isolated narrative contexts.
>Stay away from Ancestral files ... Please double check it ...
You needn't warn me, but I guess this can't be stated enough.
I have been looking Medieval Arhives. I have found that Ferrers/Ferree were related many Royals. Could this be the reason that Maria was give land in America? There was family story on my Ferree who came to America.
"Some time before this (1707) Queen Anne of England had issued a proclamation inviting the suffering Huguenots to come to England. However, the Ferrees had heard of Pennsylvania in America, and desiring to go there began to make plans to cross the Atlantic. Consent for them to leave the country was granted by the following paper: "Whereas Marie, Daniel Ferree's widow, and her son Daniel Ferree with his wife, and other single children, in view of improving their condition and in furtherance of their prosperity, propose to emigrate from Steinweiler in the Mayoralty of Bittingheim, High Bailiwick, Gersheim, via Holland and England, to the island of Pennsylvania to reside there, they have requested an accredited certificate that they left the town of Steinweiler with the knowledge of the proper authorities and have deported themselves peaceably and without cause for censure, and are indebted to no one, and not subject to vassalage, being duly solicited, it has been thought proper to grant their petition declaring that the above named persons are not moving away clandestinely, that during the time their father, the widow and children resided in this place, they behaved themselves piously and honestly, that it would have been highly gratifying to us to see them remain among us, that they are not subject to bodily bondage, they mayoralty not being subject to vassalage -- they have also paid for their permission to emigrate; Mr. Fischer, the Mayor of Steinweiler being expressly interrograted, it has been ascertained that they are not liable for any debts. In witness thereof, I have, in the absence of the counsellor of the Palatinate, etc., signed these presents, gave the same to the persons who intended to emigrate. Dated Bittingheim, March 10, 1708." (L.S.) J. P. Dietrich, "Court Clerk."
Jean Fiere LA VERREE (ca1624 - ) Son Daniel FERREE b. 10 Mar 1647, Normandy Province, FRANCE; 1650, France, Forchamps, Lower Normandy d. 1708, Lindau, BAVARIA Occupation Huguenot and a silk weaver by trade MARRIAGE: abt 1675 Wife Mary WARENBUER (Madam Marie De La Warembur) b. 1653, Picardy, FRANCE d. 1716, Conestoga, Lancaster Co, PA
Children (all were born in France
Catherine Ferree c1679 Daniel Ferree c1677 Mary Ferree c1683 Jane Ferree c 1685 Philip Ferree c 1687 John Ferree c 1688
> I have been looking Medieval Arhives. I have found that Ferrers/Ferree were > related many Royals.
Hold it. Ferrers and Ferree are entirely unrelated, at least if the information you gave below is accurate.
> Could this be the reason that Maria was give land in America?
The only one given land in Pennsylvania was William Penn. Everyone else bought it or took it.
> There was family story on my Ferree who came to America.
> "Some time before this (1707) Queen Anne of England had issued a > proclamation inviting the suffering Huguenots to come to England. However, > the Ferrees had heard of Pennsylvania in America, and desiring to go there > began to make plans to cross the Atlantic.
Forget the Queen Anne part - it has no relevance. Germans and French protestants started to migrate to Pennsylvania at this time due to the professions of religious freedom offered to them by the Quakers of Pa.
> Consent for them to leave the > country was granted by the following paper: > "Whereas Marie, Daniel Ferree's widow, and her son Daniel Ferree with his > wife, and other single children, in view of improving their condition and in > furtherance of their prosperity, propose to emigrate from Steinweiler in the > Mayoralty of Bittingheim, High Bailiwick, Gersheim, via Holland and England, > to the island of Pennsylvania to reside there, . . . [snip] > In witness thereof, I have, in the absence of the counsellor of the > Palatinate, etc., signed these presents, gave the same to the persons who > intended to emigrate. Dated Bittingheim, March 10, 1708." (L.S.) J. P. > Dietrich, "Court Clerk."
This is obviously a translation of an original document - you should try to idedntify the original citation.
> >In a message dated 3/4/02 9:56:36 PM, reitwies...@stop.mail-abuse.org writes:
> ><< >Are there descendants of Inca royalty among Europe's nobility? And if so, > >how > >>do they specifically descend from the Inca royal family? > >See, for instance, *Europaeische Stammtafeln*, ed. Schwennicke, Band IX > >[1987], Tafel 16. >>
> >This is not truly helpful to one who is not near these sources or to a person > >who does not read German. Surely that Tafel 16 says something to answer the > >question. Why would one look up the Tafel and not give a sense of the > >information included?
> Okay, here's a sense of the information:
> The marriage in question (which introduced a line from the Inca royal > family into a European noble family) occurred around AD 1610, which is > outside the time period of this forum. All of the descendants of the > marriage (European nobles with Inca royal ancestry) lived outside of the > time period of this forum, and are thus inappropriate for discussion here.
> Hope that helps.
Well, it doesn't. I seem to recall TAF pointing to a "loophole" allowing for later/earlier royalty when Sam Sloan was trying to fit Jefferson into the scope and complaining that there was lots of post-1600 stuff being posted with no objections. Unfortunately, the FAQ, which gets posted every month on the 1st day, seems to disappear quickly from the Google archive, so I'm not in a position to quote from it. Saludos Bryant Smith Playa Palo Seco Costa Rica
> The only one given land in Pennsylvania was William Penn. > Everyone else bought it or took it.
My info about Penn is that although he was "given" the land by the crown he was very scrupulous about paying the indigenes for their interests in the same land.
My info about Penn is that although he was "given" the land by the crown he was very scrupulous about paying the indigenes for their interests in the same land
True but that didn't last long. Janet
----- Original Message ----- From: "Bryant Smith" <ski...@racsa.co.cr> To: <GEN-MEDIEVA...@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, March 07, 2002 5:35 AM Subject: Re: Ferree
> "Todd A. Farmerie" <farme...@interfold.com> wrote in message
> > The only one given land in Pennsylvania was William Penn. > > Everyone else bought it or took it.
> My info about Penn is that although he was "given" the land > by the crown he was very scrupulous about paying the indigenes > for their interests in the same land.
> Saludos > Bryant Smith > Playa Palo Seco > Costa Rica
----- Original Message ----- From: "Todd A. Farmerie" <farme...@interfold.com> To: <GEN-MEDIEVA...@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, March 07, 2002 12:08 AM Subject: Re: Ferree
> Janet Ariciu wrote:
> > I have been looking Medieval Arhives. I have found that Ferrers/Ferree were > > related many Royals.
> Hold it. Ferrers and Ferree are entirely unrelated, at least if > the information you gave below is accurate.
> > Could this be the reason that Maria was give land in America?
> The only one given land in Pennsylvania was William Penn. > Everyone else bought it or took it.
> > There was family story on my Ferree who came to America.
> > "Some time before this (1707) Queen Anne of England had issued a > > proclamation inviting the suffering Huguenots to come to England. However, > > the Ferrees had heard of Pennsylvania in America, and desiring to go there > > began to make plans to cross the Atlantic.
> Forget the Queen Anne part - it has no relevance. Germans and > French protestants started to migrate to Pennsylvania at this > time due to the professions of religious freedom offered to them > by the Quakers of Pa.
> > Consent for them to leave the > > country was granted by the following paper: > > "Whereas Marie, Daniel Ferree's widow, and her son Daniel Ferree with his > > wife, and other single children, in view of improving their condition and in > > furtherance of their prosperity, propose to emigrate from Steinweiler in the > > Mayoralty of Bittingheim, High Bailiwick, Gersheim, via Holland and England, > > to the island of Pennsylvania to reside there, . . . > [snip] > > In witness thereof, I have, in the absence of the counsellor of the > > Palatinate, etc., signed these presents, gave the same to the persons who > > intended to emigrate. Dated Bittingheim, March 10, 1708." (L.S.) J. P. > > Dietrich, "Court Clerk."
> This is obviously a translation of an original document - you > should try to idedntify the original citation.
> > The only one given land in Pennsylvania was William Penn. > > Everyone else bought it or took it.
> My info about Penn is that although he was "given" the land > by the crown he was very scrupulous about paying the indigenes > for their interests in the same land.
True, but it is somewhat unclear that the hunter-gatherer culture understood the meaning of exclusing land ownership. Likewise, while Penn was scrupulous, his successors have been accused of acting in bad faith, such as their (shrewd/disengenuous) manipulation of the terms of the Walking Purchase. However, this is beyond the scope here.
> Not True. My Heinrich Frey was in PA before William Penn and got his land > from the Indians. Here was there before 1685
I strongly suspect that this is a family tradition gone awry. Assuming that your Frey is German and not Dutch or Swedish, it would be extremely difficult to account for his presence in Pennsylvania prior to the establishment of the Quaker colony - it was the Quakers who initiated the German immigration through active promotion in the Palatanate. In fact, I can't think of a single German in the colonies prior to this point. What is your source for his early arrival and deal with the Delawares (it was the Delawares, right? Lenape?).
> > The marriage in question (which introduced a line from the Inca royal > > family into a European noble family) occurred around AD 1610, which is > > outside the time period of this forum. All of the descendants of the > > marriage (European nobles with Inca royal ancestry) lived outside of the > > time period of this forum, and are thus inappropriate for discussion here.
> Well, it doesn't. I seem to recall TAF pointing to a "loophole" > allowing for later/earlier royalty
Royalty, perhaps, but not nobility. (To be blunt, this "loophole" was primarlily included to allow the ancient non-medieval-but-royal stuff, rather than the modern.)
In article <a9b2ce02.0203070325.102a...@posting.google.com>,
ski...@racsa.co.cr (Bryant Smith) wrote: >Unfortunately, >the FAQ, which gets posted every month on the 1st day, seems to >disappear quickly from the Google archive, so I'm not in a position >to quote from it.
Anyone is in a position to quote from the FAQ, which is available every day of the month at:
I seem to recall that many of the settlers on the Jamestown Settlement (1607) were German, & that Captain John Smith found them to be the only ones who knew the meaning of a good day's work... Annie -----Message d'origine----- De : Todd A. Farmerie <farme...@interfold.com> À : GEN-MEDIEVA...@rootsweb.com <GEN-MEDIEVA...@rootsweb.com> Date : jeudi 7 mars 2002 19:55 Objet : Re: Ferree
Janet Ariciu wrote: > > Not True. My Heinrich Frey was in PA before William Penn and got his land > from the Indians. Here was there before 1685
I strongly suspect that this is a family tradition gone awry. Assuming that your Frey is German and not Dutch or Swedish, it would be extremely difficult to account for his presence in Pennsylvania prior to the establishment of the Quaker colony - it was the Quakers who initiated the German immigration through active promotion in the Palatanate. In fact, I can't think of a single German in the colonies prior to this point. What is your source for his early arrival and deal with the Delawares (it was the Delawares, right? Lenape?).
ski...@racsa.co.cr (Bryant Smith) wrote: >reitwies...@stop.mail-abuse.org (William Addams Reitwiesner) wrote in message <news:3c868a6b.2548739@news.erols.com>... >> KHF...@aol.com wrote:
>> >In a message dated 3/4/02 9:56:36 PM, reitwies...@stop.mail-abuse.org writes:
>> ><< >Are there descendants of Inca royalty among Europe's nobility? And if so, >> >how >> >>do they specifically descend from the Inca royal family? >> >See, for instance, *Europaeische Stammtafeln*, ed. Schwennicke, Band IX >> >[1987], Tafel 16. >>
>> >This is not truly helpful to one who is not near these sources or to a person >> >who does not read German. Surely that Tafel 16 says something to answer the >> >question. Why would one look up the Tafel and not give a sense of the >> >information included?
>> Okay, here's a sense of the information:
>> The marriage in question (which introduced a line from the Inca royal >> family into a European noble family) occurred around AD 1610, which is >> outside the time period of this forum. All of the descendants of the >> marriage (European nobles with Inca royal ancestry) lived outside of the >> time period of this forum, and are thus inappropriate for discussion here.
>> Hope that helps.
>Well, it doesn't. I seem to recall TAF pointing to a "loophole" >allowing for later/earlier royalty when Sam Sloan was trying to >fit Jefferson into the scope and complaining that there was lots >of post-1600 stuff being posted with no objections. Unfortunately, >the FAQ, which gets posted every month on the 1st day, seems to >disappear quickly from the Google archive, so I'm not in a position >to quote from it.
(note: must cut and paste the above URL together into one line)
As you point out, the "loophole" allows for discussion of royal lines. All of the descendants I've been able to trace of the marriage in question were noble. None were royal, so they don't qualify for the "loophole".
What If I tell that William Penn agree with me in his documents that Heinrich Frey was there before he came. Heinrich came in 1680 to PA area before William Penn came. Heinrich came from Altheim, Province of Alsace Loraine, Germany/France.
THE LEVERING FAMILY BOOK, PENNSYLVANIA ARCHIVES, FRY FAMILY ASSOCIATION RECORDS" DR. J.C. CULVER OF NORRISTOWN.
"And According to the historian Abraham M. Cassel, "Heinrich Frey and Joseph Blatenbach were the first two German emigrants who came to Pennsylvania. They emigrated in 1680 and settled in Philadelphia.
Heinrich Fry came to America from Altheim, Alsace-Lorraine, Germany/France, on board the ship MARKUS, with the CAPTAIN SOUDER, MASTER. They arrived in the South River of the Delaware, in about the year 1680. This was Approximately 3 years before the Township of Germantown, Pennsylvania was established."
"SHIP PASSENGER LISTS Pennsylvania and Delaware (1641-1825) by Carl Boyer, 3rd
"Einwanderer in Pennsylvania vor 1770" Jahfbuch Fue Ausland-deutsche Sippenkunde, 1 (1936), 52-54 [Lancour No 116]
Frey, Heinrich, aus Altheim im Elsass, 1685
Levering, Gerhart and Wigart von Muhlheim, 1685
All the person what were list as being in PA in 1685
William Penn made two trips as far as I can fine.
"Naturalizations, Germantown, PA., 3/7/1691/92; Copia Naturalizations of Frances Daniel Pastorius and of 61 persons. More of German Town from William Penn, Esq., " National Genealogical Society Quarterly, 28(1940), 7-8[Lancour no 129] "William Penn, Propretary of the Province of Pennsylvania etc. By the King and Queen's authority, to all to whom these Presents shall come. Sends Greetings, etc. Whereas : Wiggert Levering; Heinrich Frey and Gerhard Levering; Johannes Bleickers.
"...land-owners, Citizens..1683, 1692 1698.. And Owners of land in German-town and in the County of Philadelphia, being foreigners, and so not freemen, according to the acceptation of the Law of England. Have requested to be made freeman of the said Province, pursuant to the Powers granted by King's Letters patent, and Act of Union and Naturalization, etc. made in this Government. Now Know ye, that for the further encouragement of the Industry and Sobriety of the said Inhabitants, And for the better and further Security of their Estates real and personal, top them and their heirs, They the said Inhabitants having Solemnly promised (upon record in the County Court of Philadelphia aforesaid) faith and Allegiance to William and Mary, King and Queen England, etc . and fidelity and lawful Obedience to me, according to the King's letters, patents aforesaid, I doe declare and by this Presents Confirm them the said Inhabitants before named to be Freeman of this Government, And that they shall be accordingly held and reputed in as full and ample manner as any person or persons residing therein, And that they the said Freemen have liberty and freedom hereby to trade and traffick in this Colony or in any of the King's Dominions and Plantations, as other good Subjects do without any manner of Lett, Henderance or Molestation whatsoever.
Witness Thomas Lloyd, Deputy Govern of Province of Pennsilvania, etc, Given at Philadelphia aforesaid, with the assent of the Provincial Council, the Seventh day of the Third month Anno Domi 1691, and in the third year of the reign of King William and Queen Mary over England, etc..
----- Original Message ----- From: "Todd A. Farmerie" <farme...@interfold.com> To: <GEN-MEDIEVA...@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, March 07, 2002 12:15 PM Subject: Re: Ferree
> Janet Ariciu wrote:
> > Not True. My Heinrich Frey was in PA before William Penn and got his land > > from the Indians. Here was there before 1685
> I strongly suspect that this is a family tradition gone awry. > Assuming that your Frey is German and not Dutch or Swedish, it > would be extremely difficult to account for his presence in > Pennsylvania prior to the establishment of the Quaker colony - it > was the Quakers who initiated the German immigration through > active promotion in the Palatanate. In fact, I can't think of a > single German in the colonies prior to this point. What is your > source for his early arrival and deal with the Delawares (it was > the Delawares, right? Lenape?).
Janet Ariciu wrote: > What If I tell that William Penn agree with me in his documents that > Heinrich Frey was there before he came.
I would ask to see the document (or at least their citations). I would also point out that I took your "was in PA before WIlliam Penn" to mean that he received his land their before Penn did. If all you are talking about is his date of arrival vs. Penn, that is a different matter, if only by one year. Still that sets a date of 1681 (grant) or 1682 (arrival).
> Heinrich came in 1680 to PA area before William Penn came.
What is the source for this date? Oh, I see.
> Heinrich came from Altheim, Province of Alsace Loraine, Germany/France.
> THE LEVERING FAMILY BOOK, PENNSYLVANIA ARCHIVES, FRY FAMILY ASSOCIATION > RECORDS" DR. J.C. CULVER OF NORRISTOWN.
That the Pennsylvania Archives happens to own this book should not be taken as adding credence to its contents, nor the M.D. or Ph.D. of its author. It is just another family history.
> "And According to the historian Abraham M. Cassel, "Heinrich Frey and Joseph > Blatenbach were the first two German emigrants who came to Pennsylvania. > They emigrated in 1680 and settled in Philadelphia.
And on what did the historian Cassal base this claim?
> Heinrich Fry came to America from Altheim, Alsace-Lorraine, Germany/France, > on board the ship MARKUS, with the CAPTAIN SOUDER, MASTER. They arrived in > the South River of the Delaware, in about the year 1680. This was > Approximately 3 years before the Township of Germantown, Pennsylvania was > established."
OK, now we have gone from 1680 (a precise date) to "about the year 1680", and this in your best source.
> "SHIP PASSENGER LISTS Pennsylvania and Delaware (1641-1825) by Carl Boyer, > 3rd
> "Einwanderer in Pennsylvania vor 1770" Jahfbuch Fue Ausland-deutsche > Sippenkunde, 1 (1936), 52-54 [Lancour No 116]
> Frey, Heinrich, aus Altheim im Elsass, 1685
Placing him there only by 1685
> William Penn made two trips as far as I can fine.
> "Naturalizations, Germantown, PA., 3/7/1691/92; Copia Naturalizations of > Frances Daniel Pastorius and of 61 persons. More of German Town from William > Penn, Esq., " National Genealogical Society Quarterly, 28(1940), 7-8[Lancour > no 129] "William Penn, Propretary of the Province of Pennsylvania etc. By > the King and Queen's authority, to all to whom these Presents shall come. > Sends Greetings, etc. Whereas : Wiggert Levering; Heinrich Frey and Gerhard > Levering; Johannes Bleickers.
Which puts them there in 1691.
I don't see anything that convinves me that Frey was in PA in 1680, let alone that he received his grant from the Indians (what is your cite for this) before William Penn got his from the King.
It must be kept in mind that Pennsylvania german family histories are notorious for bumping back dates of arrival "before the founding of Germantown" - I have one such tradition for a family that actually arrived in the late 1720s. Likewise, the whole "bought from the Indians before Penn" is highly suspect.
