Halfdan III "the Black", Kg of Upland,Norway
RETF...@aol.com
I have conflicting parents for Halfdan III "the Black", King Upland, Norway
and
his wife Ragnhild.
Please, can anyone help sort this out?
Halfdan III b.0820/0822, Vestfold, Norway; d.0860 Norway
married Ragnhild (Hilda) of Ringerike b.ca 0826/0830
For his parents I have:
Halfdan "the Swarthy" and Hilda of Ringerike (no dates for either)
- OR -
Guthroth(Gudrod) Halfdansson, d.810 (10 yrs before Halfdan III was born!)
and an unknown wife.
I also have duplicate parents for Halfdan IIIs wife:
Harold Guldskegg of Sogne and Solvar NN -perhaps Hundolfsdotter? (no dates
for either)
- OR -
Eystein "Hardrade" and Solveig Halfdansdotter (again, no dates for them)
Any and all help gratefully appreciated in clearing up the confusion.
Thanks so much.
:>) Barbara
Kelly Petit
Here's what I have, but you should be aware that some say this is all invented
to give a good 'image' of the first Norwegian kings..
Taken from Snorre Saga.
kelly
***
Arbre texte ascendant : Halvdan Gudrødsson Den Svarte
Vendredi 19 Mai 2000
Sosa Référence Nom et Prénoms de la personne Date de naissance Date de décès
1 Den Svarte Halvdan Gudrødsson o ?/?/797 † ?/?/860
Parents
=======
Sosa Référence Nom et Prénoms de la personne Date de naissance Date de décès
2 Veidekonge Gudrød Halvdansson o ?/?/778 † ?/?/810
3 Haraldsdtr Åsa † ?/?/821
Grand-parents
=============
Sosa Référence Nom et Prénoms de la personne Date de naissance Date de décès
4 Oeysteinsson Halvdan den Gavmilde o ?/?/730 † ?/?/785
5 Dagsdtr Liv o ?/?/760
6 Granraude Harald
Arrière grand-parents
=====================
Sosa Référence Nom et Prénoms de la personne Date de naissance Date de décès
8 Halvdansson Øystein 'Fjært' o ?/?/720 † ?/?/780
9 Eiriksdtr Hild o ?/?/705
10 Vestmare Dag o ?/?/740
12 Av Ringerike Olav
Arrière grand-parents (2)
=========================
Sosa Référence Nom et Prénoms de la personne Date de naissance Date de décès
16 Kvitbein Halvdan Olavsson o ?/?/640 † ?/?/745
17 Oysteinsdtr Åsa o ?/?/680 † ?/?/710
18 Agnarsson Eirik o ?/?/680 † ?/?/710
24 Av Ringerike Ring II
Arrière grand-parents (3)
=========================
Sosa Référence Nom et Prénoms de la personne Date de naissance Date de décès
32 Ingjaldsson Olav Tretelja o ?/?/660
33 Halvdansdtr Solveig el. Solva o ?/?/660
34 Hardråde Øystein o ?/?/650
36 Sigtrygsson Agnar o ?/?/650
48 Av Ringerike Oleiv
Arrière grand-parents (4)
=========================
Sosa Référence Nom et Prénoms de la personne Date de naissance Date de décès
64 Anundsson Ingjald Illråde o ?/?/600 † ?/?/670
65 Algautsdtr Gauthild
66 Solvesson Halvdan Gulltann o ?/?/630
72 Av Vendsyssel Sigtrygg o ?/?/620
Arrière grand-parents (5)
=========================
Sosa Référence Nom et Prénoms de la personne Date de naissance Date de décès
128 Yngvarsson Anund-Braut o ?/?/560
130 Gautreksson Algaut o ?/?/550
131 Olavsdtr Ålov o ?/?/555
132 Solvarsson Solve o ?/?/570
Arrière grand-parents (6)
=========================
Sosa Référence Nom et Prénoms de la personne Date de naissance Date de décès
256 Oyisteinsson Yngvar o ?/?/500 † ?/?/545
260 Den Milde Gautrek o ?/?/530
262 Den Klarsynte Olav o ?/?/530
264 Solvesson Solvar o ?/?/550
Arrière grand-parents (7)
=========================
Sosa Référence Nom et Prénoms de la personne Date de naissance Date de décès
512 Aldisson Øystein o ?/?/480 † ?/?/531
520 Gautland Gaut o ?/?/510
528 Den Gamle Solve o ?/?/520
Arrière grand-parents (8)
=========================
Sosa Référence Nom et Prénoms de la personne Date de naissance Date de décès
1024 Ottarsson Aldis o ?/?/440 † ?/?/505
1025 Helgesdtr Yrsa o ?/?/460
Arrière grand-parents (9)
=========================
Sosa Référence Nom et Prénoms de la personne Date de naissance Date de décès
2048 Egilsson Ottar Vendekråke o ?/?/410 † ?/?/460
2050 Halvdansson Helge o ?/?/440
2051 Av Sachsen Ålov I o ?/?/440
Arrière grand-parents (10)
==========================
Sosa Référence Nom et Prénoms de la personne Date de naissance Date de décès
4096 Aunsson Egil Tunnadolg o ?/?/380 † ?/?/456
4100 Den Gamle Halvdan o ?/?/400
Arrière grand-parents (11)
==========================
Sosa Référence Nom et Prénoms de la personne Date de naissance Date de décès
8192 Jørundsson Aun den Gamle o ?/?/350 † ?/?/448
Arrière grand-parents (12)
==========================
Sosa Référence Nom et Prénoms de la personne Date de naissance Date de décès
16384 Yngvesson Jørund o ?/?/300 † ?/?/350
Arrière grand-parents (13)
==========================
Sosa Référence Nom et Prénoms de la personne Date de naissance Date de décès
32768 Alreksson Yngve o ?/?/280 † ?/?/300
Arrière grand-parents (14)
==========================
Sosa Référence Nom et Prénoms de la personne Date de naissance Date de décès
65536 Agnesson Alrek o ?/?/240
65537 Dagsdtr Dageid o ?/?/260
Arrière grand-parents (15)
==========================
Sosa Référence Nom et Prénoms de la personne Date de naissance Date de décès
131072 Dagsson Agne † ?/?/260
131073 Frostedtr Skjalf
131074 Den Mektige Dag
Arrière grand-parents (16)
==========================
Sosa Référence Nom et Prénoms de la personne Date de naissance Date de décès
262144 Dygvesson Dag † ?/?/220
262146 Av Finnland Froste
Arrière grand-parents (17)
==========================
Sosa Référence Nom et Prénoms de la personne Date de naissance Date de décès
524288 Domarsson Dygve † ?/?/190
Arrière grand-parents (18)
==========================
Sosa Référence Nom et Prénoms de la personne Date de naissance Date de décès
1048576 Domaldesson Domar o ?/?/120
1048577 Danpsdtr Drott av Danmark o ?/?/130
Arrière grand-parents (19)
==========================
Sosa Référence Nom et Prénoms de la personne Date de naissance Date de décès
2097152 Visbursson Domalde † ?/?/130
2097154 Rigsson Danp
Arrière grand-parents (20)
==========================
Sosa Référence Nom et Prénoms de la personne Date de naissance Date de décès
4194304 Vanlandesson Visbur o ?/?/110
4194308 Konge Rig
Arrière grand-parents (21)
==========================
Sosa Référence Nom et Prénoms de la personne Date de naissance Date de décès
8388608 Sveigdesson Vanlande I o ?/?/90
8388609 Snødtr Driva o ?/?/90
Arrière grand-parents (22)
==========================
Sosa Référence Nom et Prénoms de la personne Date de naissance Date de décès
16777216 Fjolnesson Sveigde o ?/?/70
16777217 Vanaheim Vana o ?/?/70
16777218 Den Gamle Snø o ?/?/50
Arrière grand-parents (23)
==========================
Sosa Référence Nom et Prénoms de la personne Date de naissance Date de décès
33554432 Yngvesson Fjolne † ?/?/14
Arrière grand-parents (24)
==========================
Sosa Référence Nom et Prénoms de la personne Date de naissance Date de décès
67108864 Njordsson Erik Den I. Yngve-Frøy
67108865 Gymesdtr Gerd
Arrière grand-parents (25)
==========================
Sosa Référence Nom et Prénoms de la personne Date de naissance Date de décès
134217728 Njordson Frei
Arrière grand-parents (26)
==========================
Sosa Référence Nom et Prénoms de la personne Date de naissance Date de décès
268435456 Frå Noatun Njord
Dave Hinz
: Dear Listers,
: I have conflicting parents for Halfdan III "the Black", King Upland, Norway
: and
: his wife Ragnhild.
: Please, can anyone help sort this out?
It's not just Halfdan Svarte that's confusing, but his (maybe) Son,
Harald Haarfagre (Fairhair) seems to be a bit jumbled in the sagas.
I've not found a copy of the "fagrskinna" yet, but in an analysis I've
read of this and of Harfagre's Saga, it seems that Snorri was a bit
"creative", and myay have combined the lives of 3 Kings named Harald,
in the same century in Norway, into the one person who shows up in the
sagas as Haarfagre.
This analysis, which I don't have with me, goes into considerable detail
regarding which 3 Haralds these are, who their parents were, and so
on. I'm reading it in Norsk, which is slow, as that's not my primary
(or even secondary) language.
Can anyone comment on the theory that Harald Fairhair, the first Overking
of Norway, is or is not a conglomeration of 3 people? I have a lineage
which claims 5 lines of descent from him to my earliest solid, documented
ancestor, in the 1320's. It's not solid, and it's not fully documented.
I'm working on both of those, to prove or disprove the links. I'm not
getting excited about those links just yet, for obvious reasons.
I'm sure there's an expert on this topic in this group; I am quite
keen to see what the accepted history of Haarfagre is.
Dave Hinz
Kelly Petit
There was an article in the Norwegian newspaper, 'Aftenposten' last year that
said something about all this having Harald Hårfagre and his father Halvdan den
Svarte linked to the Ynglingesaga might have been poor propaganda.
The problem is that we do not have many or any written sources about this apart
from the sagas and the poems written about them. I think it'll be very difficult
to prove this or anything, we shouldn't forget that Snorre wrote his saga a
couple of hundred years after all these happenings. On the other hand we had an
oral tradition when it came to genealogy.
I personally take it for what it is, but find it fun anyway.
kelly
Todd A. Farmerie
>
> Dear Listers,
>
> I have conflicting parents for Halfdan III "the Black", King Upland,
> Norway and his wife Ragnhild.
>
> Please, can anyone help sort this out?
Well, the first thing you have to accept is that the only (near-)
contemporary source for Halfdan fails to name his parentage or his
wife. Thus all solutions you will see are late reconstructions, almost
all based on the writings of Snorri, who composed his sagas centuries
later, with the goal of telling a good story. History was a living,
evolving thing, and if he had two interesting people, there was no
reason not to make them father and son.
> Halfdan III b.0820/0822, Vestfold, Norway; d.0860 Norway
> married Ragnhild (Hilda) of Ringerike b.ca 0826/0830
These dates have no foundation.
>
> For his parents I have:
> Halfdan "the Swarthy" and Hilda of Ringerike (no dates for either)
This is an erroneous duplication. It is the same couple as the first.
Halfdan (called III based on Snorri's reconstruction) had the nickname
Svarte - the Black, which is represented here as the Swarthy.
> - OR -
> Guthroth(Gudrod) Halfdansson, d.810 (10 yrs before Halfdan III was born!)
> and an unknown wife.
This unites two different sets of material, and in the process causes
problems such as what you have seen here. There is an ancient scaldic
work called Inglingatal - the Story of the Inglingas, composed during
the lifetime of, and tracing the ancestry of a certain King Rognevald,
who was, give or take a generation, a contemporary of Halfdan the Black
(but probably not ruler in the same part of Norway). Snorri, centuries
later, took this story and grafted onto it the next dynasty of which
there was historical/scaldic evidence, Halfdan's. To do this, he
appears to have taken Halfdan, whose father was unknown, and make him
uncle of King Rognevald, and thus son of King Guddrud Halfdanson. In
this way, he united a discontinuous succession into a single linieage,
tracing back to the Gods of the germanic peoples.
The dates derive from an attempt to place the unhistorical pedigree of
Snorri into a historical context. It would seem that your source for
Halfdan's dates have done this by extrapolation - they took the time
that his son Haralf Fairhair was thought to have ruled, and subtracted
back the reign-lengths that were given by or indirectly derived from
Snorri, and came up with birth and death dates for the whole
succession. The date for Guddrud doed not come from such an
extrapolation, but instead an alternative approach. At the end of the
19th century, historians became aware of several historical records
relating to Kings of the Danes (the people in direct contact with the
western European kingdoms being chronicled). It was noted that a King
Godfried was last named in 810, and it was hypothesized that this man
was the same as the Norwegian Guddrud. That is where the 810 death date
for Guddrud came from (but it is unlikely that they were really the same
individual). That it doesn't match the date for Halfdan's birth is
simply indicative of how worthless such approaches are.
> I also have duplicate parents for Halfdan IIIs wife:
>
> Harold Guldskegg of Sogne and Solvar NN -perhaps Hundolfsdotter? (no dates
> for either)
> - OR -
> Eystein "Hardrade" and Solveig Halfdansdotter (again, no dates for them)
>
> Any and all help gratefully appreciated in clearing up the confusion.
This confusion is best solved by rejecting both. The material from this
period relating to wives and their families is almost all invented -
either to explain the appearance of a new name (so Harald Halfdanson is
made maternal grandson of a Harald), or to explain the acquisition of
land (and often, they took advantage of the opportunity and killed both
birds with one stone). In the case of Eystein, two Halfdans have been
confused - an earlier Inglingatal king, Eystein Halfdanson, was maternal
grandson of this Eystein, but it is really not worth working all of this
out since none of it has any historical basis.
taf
Kai Werner Oestreng
Todd A. Farmerie <farm...@interfold.com> skrev
> There is an ancient scaldic
> work called Inglingatal - the Story of the Inglingas, composed during
> the lifetime of, and tracing the ancestry of a certain King Rognevald,
> who was, give or take a generation, a contemporary of Halfdan the Black
> (but probably not ruler in the same part of Norway). Snorri, centuries
> later, took this story
Inglingatal (Ynglingatal) was previously assumed to be from the 9th Century,
but in his dissertation "Ynglingatal og ynglingesaga" Claus Krag has given
convincing evidence that it most likely was written as late as early 12th
Century, ie a only a few decades before Snorri wrote Ynglingesaga....
So, to my knowledge, there are no near contemporary nordic sources...:-)
Unless we blindly accept "tradition" and sagas written about 250 years
after the events occurred, the ancestors and family relationships of Halfdan
the Black remain obscure. Unless confirmed by other contemporary non-Nordic
sources, we may even doubt that Harold Fairhair was a son of Halfdan Black.
Even worse, Snorre is not the only one likely to have "adjusted" his sagas.
Ari Frodi and his predecessor Sæmundr Frodi are suspected to have adjusted
their sagas to make one of them a descendant of the Ingling
kings(Ynglingene) and the other a descendants of the Skjoldung kings
(Skjoldungene).
(Reference: Claus Krag:"Ynglingatal og ynglingesaga" , Norges
allmenvitenskapelige forskningsråd, Oslo,1991. ISBN 82-00-21130-4)
According to Claus Krag, Inglingatal has very limited value as a
genealogical source, and he shows that many of the kings names are
constructions related to nursery rhymes.....
Even with a 13-page English summary, it is regrettable that all of this
excellent book/dissertation has not been translated to English, but Research
Board have limited funds, I suppose.
Regards,
Kai Werner Østreng
Vinterbro, Norway
matt...@my-deja.com
Gudrod "the Hunting King" was the father of Olaf Geirstada-Alf by his
first wife (Alfhild?), and when she died, he abducted Asa, the daughter
of Harald of Agdir, and by her had Halfdan "the Black" (Svart).
Halfdan was some twenty years younger than Olaf. Asa got her revenge
by having Gudrod killed, though neither son was too troubled because
she was apparently buried very nicely.
Gudrod is accepted as "semi-mythical" by some, and holds some
historical credence.
Anyway, Halfdan's son was Harald Fair-Haired by his wife Ragnhild,
daughter of Sigurd Hart of Ringerike. And everyone seems to accept
that Erik Bloodaxe was the son of Harald Fairhaired, and this Erik
really was a ruler in York. Only four generations to myth.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
fitz...@freegates.be
these sagas are nothing but conflicting stories.
Hard to offer any kind of leg to help form a position when it just
gets kicked out from under you.
I guess, in the end, why are people even bothering? Someone should
present a list of the "first people" for whom history knows them well
enough to account for them and their descendants. I would like to
think there are some of them out there. How about Gorm "the Old?" He
was remembered in that stone his son built which recalled himself, and
Gorm as dad and his mother. But when did "carved in stone" really
become a state certified birth certificate?
As Muhammed, the Prophet, himself noted of his ancestry, beyond a
certain person (I can't remember who now, not that far up) "beyond
[so-and-so] the genealogists," he stated, for some reason, "lie."
That bit of info I threw out about Gudrod and his being something more
than myth came for the book "A History of the Vikings" by Gwyn Jones,
Oxford University Press, 1968. This work seemed serious enough. And
that he, Gurdrod was the father of Harald the Black, father of Harald
Fairhair, father of Erik Bloodaxe.
Oh yes, about that minority opinion that Eirik Bloodaxe being the son
of Harald Bluetooth: I have Harald Bluetooth being the son of Gorm
the Old, and brother of Gunnhild. I also have it that Eirik Bloodaxe
married this Gunnhild.
Sigh.
On Sun, 21 May 2000 20:31:24 -0600, "Todd A. Farmerie"
<farm...@interfold.com> wrote:
>matt...@my-deja.com wrote:
>>
>> I'll weigh in.
>Not everyone. There is a minority opinion that he was son of Harald
>Bluetooth, King of Denmark instead. (Perhaps less than four generations
>to myth.)
>
>taf
>
>
Todd A. Farmerie
>
> I guess, in the end, why are people even bothering? Someone should
> present a list of the "first people" for whom history knows them well
> enough to account for them and their descendants. I would like to
> think there are some of them out there. How about Gorm "the Old?" He
> was remembered in that stone his son built which recalled himself, and
> Gorm as dad and his mother. But when did "carved in stone" really
> become a state certified birth certificate?
For the Scandinavian kingdoms, I would say continuous pedigrees start
with Gorm the Old (Denmark), Eric the Victorious (Sweden), while for
Norway, half-brothers St. Olaf and Harald Haardrade. (I should note
that Olaf Trygveson, or actually his father, may top a third line, but I
don't know how solid these connections are.)
> That bit of info I threw out about Gudrod and his being something more
> than myth came for the book "A History of the Vikings" by Gwyn Jones,
> Oxford University Press, 1968. This work seemed serious enough.
Serious enough, but the sagas were only starting to be critically
reevaluated at that time.
> Oh yes, about that minority opinion that Eirik Bloodaxe being the son
> of Harald Bluetooth: I have Harald Bluetooth being the son of Gorm
> the Old, and brother of Gunnhild. I also have it that Eirik Bloodaxe
> married this Gunnhild.
Yes. This came up about the first of the year, when discussing Stewart
Baldwin's analysis of Gorm's family. I suspect that the claim that Erik
was son of Harald of Denmark comes from an English source, while the
story that Erik married Gorm's daughter appears in Snorri's work. THey
may represent two different attepts to tie things in to Gorm.
>
> Sigh.
Yes.
taf
Dave Hinz
Fairhair, who seems to be a composite of several people, in Snorri's
"interpretation of history"?
In what I believe is sourced from: Nasjonenes fabrikk, 1993, av Svein
Magnus Grodys, (the sourcing in the tree I was given is confusing to
me), The author (Svein, I assume) seems to be saying that the King
Harald Haarfagre (Fairhair) in Snorri's work is a combination of 3 folks:
In Norsk:
"Haarfagresagaen er en sammenskrivning av historiefragmenter for tre
konger som het Harald, nemlig Harald Lufa Gautreksønn, nevnt fra 813,
død 845, Harald Gullskiegg Halvdansønn, og Harald Riki
Halvdansønn (Svarte), dattersønnen til Sigurd Orm. Det fortelles
i kap.46. Som følge av sammenblandingen av Harald-konger,
har Snorre feil genealogi for morslekten til Halvdan Svartes sønn,
Harald Riki, som er den Hårfagre som ble stamfar for de senere Ynglinger.
My translation:
"Haarfagre's sagas are a combined story of history fragments for three
kings who were called Harald, namely Harald Lufa Gautreks\170nn, mentioned
in 813, died in 845; Harald Gullskiegg Halvdans\170nn, and Harald Riki
Halvdans\170nn (of Halfdan the Black), daughter's son of Sigurd Orm (Snake).
It is told in chapter 46 of (???) that Snorri has false genealogy for
the mother's family of Halvdan Svartes son, Harald Riki, who is the
Haarfagre (Fairhair) who is the ancestor of the following Ynglinger
(kings of that line)."
Can anyone comment on this theory? The article goes on, I believe, to
discuss some serious generational/chronological impossibilities, and
the conclusion seems to be that, yes, there was a Harald Fairhair, but
that Snorri didn't let fact get in the way of a good story. For intance,
Harald Lufa is said here to have been born 100 years before Harald Riki.
Where can I learn more about Harald Haarfagre? The Fagreskinna have
been mentioned, but I'm having no luck finding a copy of them (and
probably couldn't read them yet if I did...)
Who was he, really? I think after all of this, the family tree I have
that allegedly goes back to Harald Haarfagre (whichever one that means...
probably Riki), needs to have a dotted line at that point, saying
"Everything before this point is disputed folklore rather than history".
I've seen a tree of 27 generations of ancestors for Haarfagre, which
clearly resides in the realm of folklore; Odin is in that tree twice.
Any comments are very welcome...
Dave Hinz
Helenville, Wisconsin
Stewart Baldwin
<farm...@interfold.com> wrote:
>fitz...@freegates.be wrote:
[snip]
>> Oh yes, about that minority opinion that Eirik Bloodaxe being the son
>> of Harald Bluetooth: I have Harald Bluetooth being the son of Gorm
>> the Old, and brother of Gunnhild. I also have it that Eirik Bloodaxe
>> married this Gunnhild.
>
>Yes. This came up about the first of the year, when discussing Stewart
>Baldwin's analysis of Gorm's family. I suspect that the claim that Erik
>was son of Harald of Denmark comes from an English source, while the
>story that Erik married Gorm's daughter appears in Snorri's work. THey
>may represent two different attepts to tie things in to Gorm.
The primary source that ties Erik to Harald of Denmark is Adam of
Bremen, who stated he was using an English source. The Anglo-Saxon
Chronicle states that Erik was the son of a Harald, but does not
otherwise identify the father. To my knowledge Harald Gormsson does
not appear in ANY early English source. I think it is more likely
that Adam of Bremen had the NAME of Erik's father from an English
source (possibly a version of the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle), and made the
mistake of assuming that the Harald who was the father of Erik (whom
Adam calls "Hiring") was the same as Harald of Denmark.
Also, Snorri does not say that Erik married Gorm's daughter, nor does
any other Icelandic source, to my knowledge. I believe that the only
known primary source for that statement is a Norwegian source,
"Historia Norwegiae", an early Latin history of Norway of unknown
authorship and uncertain date.
Stewart Baldwin
Kai Werner Oestreng
Stewart Baldwin <sba...@mindspring.com> wrote
>To my knowledge Harald Gormsson does
> not appear in ANY early English source. I think it is more likely
> that Adam of Bremen had the NAME of Erik's father from an English
> source (possibly a version of the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle), and made the
> mistake of assuming that the Harald who was the father of Erik (whom
> Adam calls "Hiring") was the same as Harald of Denmark.
>
In the myriad of alleged children by wives, lovers and fantasy concubines
of Harold Fairhair:
I seem to recall that discussions of the (now extinct) Norwegian newsgroup
no.slekt.etterlysning endend up with only two "confirmed" children, ie. the
sons:
- Eirik Bloodaxe and
- Haakon den Gode (fostered by king Athelstan)
May I have your opinion on this matter?
Regards,
Kai Werner Oestreng
Vinterbro, Norway
Stewart Baldwin
I am inclined to agree. I certainly see no reason to accept the
twenty-plus sons given in Heimskringla. That is more likely a result
of a later age, when men of prominence were inventing pedigrees for
themselves that went back to Harald.
Stewart Baldwin
Luke Stevens
> > concubines of Harold Fairhair:
> > I seem to recall that discussions of the (now extinct) Norwegian
> > - Eirik Bloodaxe and
> > - Haakon den Gode (fostered by king Athelstan)
>
> twenty-plus sons given in Heimskringla. That is more likely a result
> of a later age, when men of prominence were inventing pedigrees for
> themselves that went back to Harald.
So, are there any valid lines left standing connecting Harald Fairhair
to the ancestries of the rest of us, or is he an island of an earlier
age, as far as anyone can tell?
Luke Stevens
Kai Werner Oestreng
Luke Stevens <anfo...@geocities.com> wrote
> So, are there any valid lines left standing connecting Harald Fairhair
> to the ancestries of the rest of us, or is he an island of an earlier
> age, as far as anyone can tell?
>
I have seen some (disputed) lines from Eirik Bloodaxe through the Manx kings
to the Skancke noble family, claimed to be a branch of the Manx royal
family.
It is claimed that Hallstein Thorleifsson (born Isle of Man abt 1272, died
Trondheim,Norway, abt 1345) and his mother Magnhild left Isle of Man for
Norway approximately 1295 descended from the Manx kings. (Family crest
/sigill (identical to the kings of Man)= 3 skanker)
However, there are one or more weak links in thos lineage, and I recall some
discussions after the publication of de Robelins book amongst Norwegian
Genealogists....
In this expert newsgroup, an amateur like me is in deep water, so I would be
very happy to see someone else present a suggested lineage from Eirik
Bloodaxe....
Regards,
Kai Werner Østreng
Sources:
Roger de Robelin:"Skankeætten",1995 (In Swedish)
A swedish genealogy on the www refers to work by researchers Carl Ruben
Carlsson, G.V.C. Young (Isle of Man) and Sven Gaute Barfoth as well as
Barney Young. There is also a reference to:
"Skancke-ätten", 1978, by Herje Skuncke (in Swedish). I'll try to find back
to the Swedish genealogist on the www who seems to have extensive knowledge
of these matters.
Stewart Baldwin
<ka...@ski.mail.telia.com> wrote:
>
>Luke Stevens <anfo...@geocities.com> wrote
>> So, are there any valid lines left standing connecting Harald Fairhair
>> to the ancestries of the rest of us, or is he an island of an earlier
>> age, as far as anyone can tell?
>>
>
>I have seen some (disputed) lines from Eirik Bloodaxe through the Manx kings
>to the Skancke noble family, claimed to be a branch of the Manx royal
>family.
I am very dubious about this claimed descent of the Manx kings from
Erik Bloodaxe. The only place I have seen the claim is in the book
"The History of the Isle of Man under the Norse, or Now through a
glass darkly", by G. V. C. Young. On page 41, he mentions the claim
that Erik was father of Godred, father of Harald the Black (father of
Godred Crovan), the "documentation" being a statement that another
researcher found a book (unnamed) in the New York Public Library that
said so. Needless to say, I wouldn't mind seeing a more substantial
piece of documentation for this chronologically dubious claim.
To give another example of sloppiness in Young's book, he states (pp.
48-9) that Harald the Black died in 1040 and that his death was
recorded in the Annals of Ulster. Now, the Annals of Ulster do record
the death of a Harald that year, namely, king Harald of the Saxons,
but there are no other men of the name whose death is recorded in that
year. Since king Harold I of England died in that year, it is pretty
obvious that this annal entry was an account of his death, and not of
some obscure Manx prince.
>It is claimed that Hallstein Thorleifsson (born Isle of Man abt 1272, died
>Trondheim,Norway, abt 1345) and his mother Magnhild left Isle of Man for
>Norway approximately 1295 descended from the Manx kings. (Family crest
>/sigill (identical to the kings of Man)= 3 skanker)
I have never seen any reasonable evidence that this Magnhild person
ever existed, and I know of no solidly documented line of descent from
the later Manx kings to modern times. (A line of descent through the
Waldeboef family can be traced well into the fourteenth century, and
seems to offer the best prospect for continuing a line of descent into
modern times.)
Stewart Baldwin
Stewart Baldwin
wrote:
>So, are there any valid lines left standing connecting Harald Fairhair
>to the ancestries of the rest of us, or is he an island of an earlier
>age, as far as anyone can tell?
The claimed lines which go back to Harald rely on the "orthodox" lines
of descent of certain eleventh century kings from him. It looks like
any attempt to connect Harald's "island" to later times would involve
trying to revive those orthodox genealogies, which would in turn set
one against the growing scholarly opinion that these claims were most
likely inventions of a later time.
Stewart Baldwin
Kai Werner Oestreng
Stewart Baldwin <sba...@mindspring.com> wrote
> I am very dubious about this claimed descent of the Manx kings from
> Erik Bloodaxe. The only place I have seen the claim is in the book
> "The History of the Isle of Man under the Norse, or Now through a
> glass darkly", by G. V. C. Young. On page 41, he mentions the claim
> that Erik was father of Godred, father of Harald the Black (father of
> Godred Crovan), the "documentation" being a statement that another
> researcher found a book (unnamed) in the New York Public Library that
> said so. Needless to say, I wouldn't mind seeing a more substantial
> piece of documentation for this chronologically dubious claim.
>
So would I,.....:-), I may try to trace and get in touch with the
Scandinavians who, cooperated with Young.
Anyway, for starters:
Ay least two sources state that Erik Bloodaxe had a son named Godred
(Gudrød):
1) In Heimskringla (based on translation by Gustav Storm, 1899) Snorre
refers once to this son of Erik (not the same as Godred (Gudrød) alleged son
of Harold Fairhair.)
2)"Fragments of an old Norwegian saga",translated by PA Munch, give more
detailed information of the sons of ErikBloodaxe and their fate. Godred
(Gudrød) may have survived his brothers as there is no account of his death
but of all the deaths of his brothers Gamle,Godorm(Guttorm),Harald Graafeld,
Halvdan, Eivind,Erling, Sigurd Sleva, Ragnfred and Gorm.
Source:"Samlinger til det Norske Folks Sprog og Historie", volume 2,
Christiania,1834. Article by P.A.Munch, page 273-335.
>
> I have never seen any reasonable evidence that this Magnhild person
> ever existed, and I know of no solidly documented line of descent from
> the later Manx kings to modern times.
At least: Her alleged son Hallsten Thorleifsson was real enough: He was
Norwegian Riksraad from 1303, later sysselmann in Jemtland. His family
crest/sigill, identical to that of the Manx kings, is claimed still to
exist.
If there is an element of truth in Youngs lineage (in spite of documented
errors), your alternative 4 for the ancestry of Godred Crovan may again be
the most likely solution?
Regards,
Kai
Kai Werner Oestreng
disputed lineage from Erik Bloodaxe to the Skancke noble family of
Norway/Sweden and found that the lineage has been updated now going through
Ragnfred ( son of Erik Bloodaxe who survived the battle of Limfjord abt.
976? together with his brother Godred and left for the Orkneys with their
mother Gunnhild, according to Heimskringla).
It is now assumed that "a daughter of Ragnfred was married to Harald the
Black of Islay" , ie. the mother of Godred Crovan
The sources referred to are: Alexander Bugge and G.V.C. Young, :-)
Other references are also given to 2 Norwegian genealogists and I'll try to
get their sources.
This Swedish website connecting Erik Bloodaxe and the Skancke family can be
found at http://home.swipnet.se/espell/bjorn/default.html
Regards,
Kai
Lyle R. (Andy) Anderson
I don't have at my finger tips the Saga the following was extracted from,
however, the following is from one of the Sagas. I could refind it if it is
an issue.
For general info to the group. This is the line that I claim on my mothers
Swedish ancestry back from Canada, >the US, (Minnesota) >Sweden,
Isle of Man, and Norway. While there are certainly some skeptics on
Barney Young's work, there is some of his work (and others of the
Skunck / Skanck family) wrongly ignored by some because of the shortfalls
they claim is found within Youngs efforts.
I don't think Bjorn claims to have all the answers on his site below, however,
it provides a good foundation for further investigation and arguement.
http://home.swipnet.se/espell/bjorn/default.html
I certainly don't have all the answers (some days I don't think I have any),
however
when one uses the four criteria of mythical, possible, probable and provable as
bench marks I believe the connection is not only possible, but probable based on
what is know, but not provable. That is the quest for many--------the provable.
Having said that, I will now go and get out my old military helmet and flack
jacket
in preparation for the incoming bomb bursts :-)
Lyle R. (Andy) Anderson
New Westminster, BC, Canada
FALL OF KING GUDROD (Godred).
Godred, a son of Eirik Bloodaxe and Gunhild, had been ravaging in the west
countries ever since he fled from Norway before the Earl Hakon. But the summer
before mentioned (A.D. 999), where King Olaf Trygvason had ruled four years over
Norway, Godred came to the country, and had many ships of war with him. He had
sailed from England; and when he thought himself near to the Norway coast, he
steered south along the land, to the quarter where it was least likely King Olaf
would be. Gudrod sailed in this way south to Viken; and as soon as he came to
the land he began to plunder, to subject the people to him, and to demand that
they should accept of him as king. Now as the country people saw that a great
army was come upon them, they desired peace and terms. They offered King Gudrod
to send a Thing-message over all the country, and to accept of him at the Thing
as king, rather than suffer from his army; but they desired delay until a fixed
day, while the token of the Thing's assembling was going round through the
land. The king demanded maintenance during the time this delay lasted. The
bondes preferred entertaining the king as a guest, by turns, as long as he
required it; and the king accepted of the proposal to go about with some of his
men as a guest from place to place in the land, while others of his men remained
to guard the ships. When King Olaf's relations, Hyrning and Thorgeir, heard of
this, they gathered men, fitted out ships, and
went northwards to Viken. They came in the night with their men to a place at
which King Gudrod was living as a guest, and attacked him with fire and weapons;
and there King Gudrod fell, and most of his followers. Of those who were with
his ships some were killed, some slipped away and fled to great distances; and
now were all the sons of Eirik and Gunhild dead.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kai Werner Oestreng wrote:
On this, I think it is entirely possible / probable that Godred Crovan's
grandfather's
were both named Godred, one down from the line of Ivar (the Dublin / limerick
boys) and one, the son of Eirik Bloodaxe.
Lyle R. (Andy) Anderson
New Westminster, BC, Canada
> Regards,
> Kai
Lyle R. (Andy) Anderson
"Lyle R. (Andy) Anderson" wrote:
> On Godrod / Godred son of Eirik Bloodaxe
<Major snip>
> I don't think Bjorn claims to have all the answers on his site below, however,
> it provides a good foundation for further investigation and arguement.
>
> http://home.swipnet.se/espell/bjorn/default.html
Here is another Skunck / Skanck family site from the U of C, Berkley
that can be followed up and down for info on the IOM kings, Eirik Bloddaxe etc etc.,
> http://millennium.fortunecity.com/ruthven/316/gen_anor/3548.htm
Kai
I will send you off net the e-mail addresses etc of some of the Skunck
family contacts in Sweden just as soon as I find the file in the maze I
call my office :-)
rta...@my-deja.com
sba...@mindspring.com (Stewart Baldwin) wrote:
> On Wed, 24 May 2000 05:28:08 GMT, "Kai Werner Oestreng"
> <ka...@ski.mail.telia.com> wrote:
>
> >In the myriad of alleged children by wives, lovers and fantasy
concubines of Harold Fairhair:
> >I seem to recall that discussions of the (now extinct) Norwegian
children, ie. the > >sons:
> >- Eirik Bloodaxe and
> >- Haakon den Gode (fostered by king Athelstan)
> >
> >May I have your opinion on this matter?
>
> I am inclined to agree. I certainly see no reason to accept the
> twenty-plus sons given in Heimskringla. That is more likely a result
> of a later age, when men of prominence were inventing pedigrees for
> themselves that went back to Harald.
>
> Stewart Baldwin
>
Ahh, so you wouldn't accept Bjorn the "Merchant" as a son of Harold
Fairhair? See, e.g., Ancestral Roots, line 243A-18.
- Roger Tansey
Todd A. Farmerie
>
> Ahh, so you wouldn't accept Bjorn the "Merchant" as a son of Harold
> Fairhair? See, e.g., Ancestral Roots, line 243A-18.
No. This is another line that never should have been added to the
(thankfully) last edition of Ancestral Roots. Since there is no
independent tradition od Bjorn as son of Harald (separate from those
traditions tracing St. Olaf through Bjorn to Harold), the placement of
Bjorn as Harald's son stands or falls with Olaf's descent. While St.
Olaf's ancestry is conflicting in different sources (in fact, because it
is conflicting) and his "succession" bears every resemblance to just
some guy with an army showing up and taking over, (as others did at the
time and after) the late tradition of a descent from Harold Fairhair
must be dismissed as dubious, and Bjorn with it.
taf
Kai Werner Oestreng
<rta...@my-deja.com> > wrote
> Ahh, so you wouldn't accept Bjorn the "Merchant" as a son of Harold
> Fairhair? See, e.g., Ancestral Roots, line 243A-18.
>
No, and don't be fooled:
On April 1st 2000 this year it was the subject of an April Fools joke on the
Newsgroup: no.fritid.slektsforsking.diverse
In a posting (dated April 1st) it was claimed that proof/documentation of
the lineage between Harold Fairhair and Bjorn the "Merchant" (=Bjørn
Farmand) had been found. Someone else presented a follow-up and included a
link to a web-site to see a _photo_ of Bjorn the "Merchant"(=Bjørn
Farmand)...:-)
Later the postings have been removed from this newsgroup - and so far, so
good.
Unfortunately, they can still be found at http://www.deja.com/usenet
.......:-)
For this reason I give this warning to prevent you (and me) and other
participants of this newsgroup of becoming April Fools for years to come
...:-)
rta...@my-deja.com
Dave Hinz
: No. This is another line that never should have been added to the
: (thankfully) last edition of Ancestral Roots. Since there is no
: independent tradition od Bjorn as son of Harald (separate from those
: traditions tracing St. Olaf through Bjorn to Harold), the placement of
: Bjorn as Harald's son stands or falls with Olaf's descent. While St.
: Olaf's ancestry is conflicting in different sources (in fact, because it
: is conflicting) and his "succession" bears every resemblance to just
: some guy with an army showing up and taking over, (as others did at the
: time and after) the late tradition of a descent from Harold Fairhair
: must be dismissed as dubious, and Bjorn with it.
OK, I can accept Bjorn's situation. What are your opinions on
the following:
His son Ring (Hring), King of Oppland and Hedemarken, parents being
Aashild Hringsdatter of Ringerike and Fairhair.
...another (possible?) son,
Sigurd, king of Hadafylke, parents being Snofred Svasesdatter and
fairhair. (The mother of Sigurd has also been called Finnsdottir.
...how about,
daughter Ålov Haraldsdatter Årbot, who married Thori
Ragnvaldsson (Thori the Silent), earl of More?
(with Fairhair's wife Gyda Eiriksdatter av Hordaland)
...and this one, (I think we're solid on this one, at least...)
Eirik I Haraldsson Blodøks, son of Harald and of Ragnhild
Eiriksdatter den Mektige av Haithabu.
I'm tracking lines of descent which allegedly link my
last known ancestor to having descended from Fairhair through
these children. I'm treating that with a great deal of
suspicion, and if any of these are not truly descended from
him, then that's one fewer line I need to research. I'm
quite interested to hear opinions on these folks.
Best regards,
Dave Hinz
Kai Werner Oestreng
Dave Hinz <dh...@earth.execpc.com> wrote
> OK, I can accept Bjorn's situation. What are your opinions on
> the following:
>
Snorri Sturlason was a great writer, but historians have found that he felt
free to change and create ancestry for the remote past (at his time of
writing), eg. the Vestfold connections in Ynglingesaga, and to Harald
Fairhair.
Many of the great number of children of Harald Fairhair in Heimskringla are
said to be non-historical persons, created by Snorre to make up suitable
ancestral lines. (Others can evaluate if this was done to accommodate
people or to create continuity in his writing...:-).)
He is also believed to have modified ancestry for known historical persons
to make them descendants of Harald Fairhair.
Other saga-writers copied Snorre and for this reasons the same constructions
found in different sagas (written after Heimskringla) were previously used
as _confirmation_ of Snorres inventions.
Well known Norwegian historian Halvdan Koht (died 1965) tried to separate
the real (historical) persons amongst the sons of Harald (in Snorres
Heimskringla) from the invented ones.
He found that Snorre had borrowed the names of the sons of Erik Bloodaxe for
some of his inventions and stories, eg. Guttorm and possibly Gudrod Ljome.
Similarly the names Dag and Rorek have been taken from other royals closer
to Snorres own time
He found these to have been real (historical) persons:
Eirik Bloodaxe, Halvdan (Haraldson) Black, Olav Geirstadalv (Digerbein),
Bjorn Farmand (Merchant), Sigurd Rise, Ragnvald Rettilbeine, Halvdan Halegg,
Hakon Adalsteinfostre (fostered by Athelstan). (In spite of detailed stories
abut Gudrod Ljome in the Saga of Harald Fairhair, he suspected that the name
was taken from Godrod Ljome (son of Eirik Bloodaxe) who lived one generation
later.)
Even so, their mere existence is not sufficient proof to qualify as sons of
Harald Fairhair ......:-)
If Halvdan Koht was right, this would eliminate Ring (Hring) from your list.
Others believe the account of Snofred Svasesdatter to be a real 'cock and
bull
story'. If so, your Sigurd is out...:-)
Of the sons in your list, you may be left with Eirik Bloodaxe, and I would
be very interested to see your line of descent from him, as some of us
optimists believe there _may_ be a line from Eirik Bloodaxe to the Kings of
Man (or their wives) through Ragnfred Eiriksson or Godred Eiriksson. Any
documentation
is most welcome.....:-)
Dave Hinz
: Dave Hinz <dh...@earth.execpc.com> wrote
: > OK, I can accept Bjorn's situation. What are your opinions on
: > the following:
: >
: Snorri Sturlason was a great writer, but historians have found that he felt
: free to change and create ancestry for the remote past (at his time of
: writing), eg. the Vestfold connections in Ynglingesaga, and to Harald
: Fairhair.
My phrase for Snorri is: "Snorri didn't let the actual facts get in the
way of telling a good story". He was much like my grandfather, in this
regard. (Here's to you, Gramps!)
: Well known Norwegian historian Halvdan Koht (died 1965) tried to separate
: the real (historical) persons amongst the sons of Harald (in Snorres
: Heimskringla) from the invented ones.
Good. It only stands to reason that someone has been over this before.
(snip)
: He found these to have been real (historical) persons:
: Eirik Bloodaxe, Halvdan (Haraldson) Black, Olav Geirstadalv (Digerbein),
: Bjorn Farmand (Merchant), Sigurd Rise, Ragnvald Rettilbeine, Halvdan Halegg,
: Hakon Adalsteinfostre (fostered by Athelstan). (In spite of detailed stories
: abut Gudrod Ljome in the Saga of Harald Fairhair, he suspected that the name
: was taken from Godrod Ljome (son of Eirik Bloodaxe) who lived one generation
: later.)
: Even so, their mere existence is not sufficient proof to qualify as sons of
: Harald Fairhair ......:-)
: If Halvdan Koht was right, this would eliminate Ring (Hring) from your list.
Ring's mother Aashild Hringsdatter was quite high-born, so I can see
how this would be a logical one to fake.
: Others believe the account of Snofred Svasesdatter to be a real 'cock and
: bull
: story'. If so, your Sigurd is out...:-)
...twice, as I have two alleged lines of descent through him.
One of those lines closely intersects with the "Ring" line. Hmmm...
: Of the sons in your list, you may be left with Eirik Bloodaxe, and I would
: be very interested to see your line of descent from him, as some of us
: optimists believe there _may_ be a line from Eirik Bloodaxe to the Kings of
: Man (or their wives) through Ragnfred Eiriksson or Godred Eiriksson. Any
: documentation
: is most welcome.....:-)
Here's my possible line from Bloodaxe:
http://www.davehinz.com/tokstad/bloodaxe.html
Note that I have not put any of the primary sources in this
page, it's just a sketch. First, I'm trying to see which links I
can disprove; if there are any lines left, I will then try to prove
those.
Commentary on this line, by couple:
Haarfagre & Ragnhild - seems OK.
Eirik & Gunhild - seems OK but her father is debated. Gorm, or Ozur?
Ragnhild & Håvard Torfinnsson - marriage clearly documented in
the Orkney sagas (Ragnhild was a bit of a, well, not-nice person).
No children are listed of this marriage before she had him killed,
but it doesn't say they did NOT have children. Any advice here?
Håvard av Freswick: He's in the Tompsett database with his wife, but
no kids are listed there. I'm having trouble finding genealogy
information for Caithness, and could use advice.
From there down, I have very little. I am reading the Orkney sagas,
and after I read them to familiarize myself, I will go back and try to
index the genealogical information in them (hoping, of course, that
the unknown author wasn't as creative as Snorri is known to have been).
In that line, when we get down around an#16, an#8, and so on, it
would seem that these people should be "Known", but I cannot find mention
of that line. Suggestions here are most welcome also.
Going back to Ragnhild Eiriksdatter (of Bloodaxe), she pretty clearly did
marry Haavard Torfinnsson, an Earl of Orkney.
A line which is at least as promising as Bloodaxe is through
Haarfagre's daughter Aalov, as viewed here:
http://www.davehinz.com/tokstad/aalov.html
Comments on this line? This goes through many of the Jarls of Orkney.
: Kai Werner Østreng
: Vinterbro, Norway
Stewart Baldwin
wrote:
[snip]
>Here's my possible line from Bloodaxe:
>http://www.davehinz.com/tokstad/bloodaxe.html
>
>Note that I have not put any of the primary sources in this
>page, it's just a sketch. First, I'm trying to see which links I
>can disprove; if there are any lines left, I will then try to prove
>those.
>
>Commentary on this line, by couple:
>
>Haarfagre & Ragnhild - seems OK.
>
>Eirik & Gunhild - seems OK but her father is debated. Gorm, or Ozur?
Unknown is the obvious answer, since the sources giving Gorm or Ozur
are all late.
>Ragnhild & Håvard Torfinnsson - marriage clearly documented in
>the Orkney sagas (Ragnhild was a bit of a, well, not-nice person).
>No children are listed of this marriage before she had him killed,
>but it doesn't say they did NOT have children. Any advice here?
The Orkney saga is far from being a contemporary source for this
period, so I would not say that the marriage is "clearly documented".
To my knowledge, the earliest jarl of Orkney who appears in
contemporary documents is Sigurðr (d. 1014) son of Hloðvir. Since the
Annals of Ulster agree with the Orkney saga with regard to the name of
the father of Sigurðr, we may accept the line that far back, but the
earlier part is difficult to verify. In particular, the story of
Ragnhild and her husbands reads more like literature than history, and
there does not appear to be the slightest shred of evidence that
Ragnhild (if she even existed at all) ever had children. Assigning
children to such a couple without any evidence is no more than
guesswork, and is without genealogical value.
>Håvard av Freswick: He's in the Tompsett database with his wife, but
>no kids are listed there. I'm having trouble finding genealogy
>information for Caithness, and could use advice.
The Tompsett database is extremely unreliable, and is especially bad
for early Scandinavian lines. My recommendation is to avoid this
database completely.
>A line which is at least as promising as Bloodaxe is through
>Haarfagre's daughter Aalov, as viewed here:
>
>http://www.davehinz.com/tokstad/aalov.html
>
>Comments on this line? This goes through many of the Jarls of Orkney.
Also flawed, for similar reasons. You are trying to take these lines
back prior to a period when reasonable evidence exists.
Stewart Baldwin