Coat of Arms for Agnes Harris, wife of William Spencer and William Edwards, of Connecticut
Douglas Richardson
The 17th Century New World immigrant, Agnes Harris (living 1680), wife
successively of William Edwards and William Edwards, of Connecticut
has many modern descendants, including this poster. Although Agnes
Harris was a daughter and sister of two prominent merchants who were
Mayors of Barnstaple, Devon, until now it was not thought that her
family had a coat of arms.
In recent time, however, a description of the tomb of her niece,
Elizabeth Harris (died 1685), wife of Arnold Beare, was found in a
manuscript collection of monumental inscriptions at Barnstaple,
Devon. This collection was created by Benjamin Incledon in the 18th
Century.
Mr. Incledon's notes indicate that the arms of Elizabeth Harris'
parents were placed at her tomb. They indicate that her father,
Richard Harris, Mayor of Barnstaple, Devon, died 1665, bore the
following arms:
Gules a fess argent in chief three crescents argent.
Elizabeth Harris' mother, Elizabeth Martin, bore these arms:
Argent two bars gules.
The Harris arms are shown impaled with the Martin arms. The Beare
arms also shown impaled with the Harris arms.
The North Devon Athenaeum in Barnstaple, Devon kindly provided me a
digital copy of the page of Mr. Incledon's manuscript collection which
details the full monumental inscription of Elizabeth (Harris) Beare.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
ABB
This is great Doug -- I loved reading your articles on Agnes Harris
when I thought I descended from her, unfortunately my ancestor was a
cousin of the person I had thought was in my direct line so I lost
that ancestry but it's still a great find! Have you made any progress
in identifying more ancestry of William Spencer?
Adrian Benjamin Burke
New York City
James Dow Allen
> The 17th Century New World immigrant, Agnes Harris (living 1680), wife
> has many modern descendants, including this poster.
Me too. You and I are cousins!
> ... her father ... bore the following arms:
> Gules a fess argent in chief three crescents argent.
Thank you much for this, Douglas! Great news.
One interesting little factoid is that the famous
authoress Harriet Beecher Stowe seems to have Agnes' mtDNA.
(Agnes was Harriet's mother's mother's mother's
mother's mother's mother's mother.)
Poor James still has no confirmed descent from any
post-1066 King. :-( Agnes' ancestor Alice de Mohun
may be my best chance, but Leo's site still shows
her as descended from William the Conqueror's sister,
but not William himself. :-(
Douglas: Does your version of Agnes' pedigree show William?
James
Joe Cochoit
I have a couple of possible lines for you. One is:
William the Conqueror, King of England
- Henry I, King of England
- Robert de Caen, Earl of Gloucester
- Robert de Caen
- Mabira de Caen m. Jordon de Campernoun
- Henry de Champernoun m. Rose de Tracy
- Oliver de Champernoun m. Wymarca
- Henry de Champernoun m. Dionisia English
- William de Champernoun m. Joan de Ferrers
- Margaret de Campernoun m. Otto de Bodrugan
- Joan de Bodrugan m. John de Whalesborough
- Margaret de Whalesborough m. John Beauchamp
- Elizabeth Beauchamp m. William Fortescue
- William Fortescue m. Matilda Falwell
- John Fortescue m. Joan Prutteston
- Joan Fortescue m. Thomas Hext
- Thomas Hext m. Wilmot Poyntz
- Margery Hext m. John Collamore
- Henry Collamore m. Margaret Blight
- Elizabeth Collamore m. Barthlomew Harris
- Agnes Harris
Both lines are dependent on Ronny Bodine’s posts on the early
Champernoun family.
http://tinyurl.com/388ndks http://tinyurl.com/38cj27k
At least one thread had some “outstanding questions” which I am not
sure if they have been resolved.
http://tinyurl.com/25wfpyn
Can anyone confirm (or break) the descent from Henry I to Oliver de
Champernoun?
Joe Cochoit
Douglas Richardson
Harriet (Beecher) Stowe's descent from Agnes Harris is well known.
Thanks to James for bringing it to the newsgroup's attention.
1 William Spencer b: 11 OCT 1601 d: 4 MAY 1640
+ Agnes Harris b: 6 APR 1604 d: ABT 1680
2 Elizabeth Spencer b: 1633 d: 5 JAN 1728/29
+ William Wellman b: ABT 1624 d: BEF 16 SEP 1671
3 Martha Wellman b: ABT 1653
+ Jacob Joy b: ABT 1647 d: 15 FEB 1691/92
4 Deborah Joy b: 23 FEB 1672/73 d: 22 FEB 1752
+ Andrew Ward b: 1 DEC 1667 d: 17 AUG 1756
5 Andrew Ward b: 22 APR 1695 d: 14 JUL 1779
+ Elizabeth Fowler b: ABT. 1695 d: AFT. 1727
6 Andrew Ward b: 19 NOV 1727 d: 10 JAN 1799
+ Dianna Hubbard b: ABT. 1730
7 Roxanna Ward b: 7 JAN 1750/51 d: 31 OCT
1840
+ Eli Foote b: 1747 d: Deceased
8 Roxana Foote b: 10 JAN 1775 d: 24 SEP
1818
+ Lyman Beecher b: 2 SEP 1775 d: 1863
9 Harriet Elizabeth Beecher b: 14 JUN
1811 d: 1 JUL 1896
+ Calvin Ellis Stowe b: 6 APR 1802
d: 22 AUG 1886
James Dow Allen
Thank you, Douglas. Two of the primaries in this descent chain
are male; the claim that Mrs. Stowe had Agnes Harris' mtDNA
depends on a connection not shown above, that Dianna Hubbard
was first cousin of Andrew Ward, i.e. that one link can
be substituted in the chain above:
4 Deborah Joy b: 23 FEB 1672/73 d: 22 FEB 1752
+ Andrew Ward b: 1 DEC 1667 d: 17 AUG 1756
5 Diana Ward
+ Daniel Hubbard
6 Dianna Hubbard
+ Andrew Ward 1727-1799
This connection can be found on the Internet, e.g at
"Ancestors of George W. Bush"
by William Addams Reitwiesner
(which is probably where I found it in the first place).
I'd post a link, but I'm sure Mr. Johnson's Googling
skills are second to none, but not at all sure whether
he approves of Mr. Reitwiesner's work. (I don't know
what kind of medication Mr. Johnson is on. Frankly,
I suspect he just needs to have ... er ... his
Johnson serviced. :-)
James
Douglas Richardson
< William the Conqueror, King of England
< - Henry I, King of England
< - Robert de Caen, Earl of Gloucester
< - Robert de Caen
< - Mabira de Caen m. Jordon de Campernoun
< - Henry de Champernoun m. Rose de Tracy
The line above is slightly in error. The correct line runs as
follows:
1. William the Conqueror, King of England.
2. Henry I, King of England, by an unknown mistress, had:
3. Robert Fitz Roy, Earl of Gloucester, married Mabel Fitz Hamon.
4. Robert Fitz Robert, of Conerton, Cornwell, Castellan of Gloucester,
married Hawise de Redvers (or Rivers), daughter of Baldwin de Redvers,
1st Earl of Devon.
5. Mabel Fitz Robert, married (1st) Jordan de Champernoun (or
Chambernoun), seigneur of Cambernon and Maisoncelles in Normandy, and
of Umberleigh and High Bickington, Devon. They had two sons, Richard
and Jordan. Mabel married (2nd) Guillaume (or William) de Solers (or
Soliers). They had two sons, Guillaume (or William) and Richard, and
two daughters, Philippe and Joan. In the period, c. 1193-1204, his
widow, Mabel, confirmed a gift charter of the manors of Fleet and
Ibberton, Dorsetshire from her mother, Hawise, to her son, Richard de
Champernoun.
6. Jordan de Champernoun, 2nd son, married Emme de Soligny, daughter
of Hasculf de Soligny, by Iseult, daughter and heiress of Jean de Dol,
seigneur of Dol in Brittany. They had one son, William.
I know that Mabel Fitz Robert [Gen. 5 above] had two sons, Richard and
Jordan de Champernoun. Her younger son, Jordan de Champernoun, and
his wife, Emme, had a son and heir, William de Champernoun, who has
many descendants. I'm not aware that Mabel Fitz Robert had a son
named Henry de Champernoun, although you might see that claimed in
print.
One other comment: Mabira is the Latin form of Mabel and should be
avoided.
Joe Cochoit
Thanks for the corrections Doug. I believe my sources for Henry son
of Jordon Champernoun were line 124A which you developed for Ancestral
Roots 7, and Ronny Bodine's Champernoun post. I have not tried to
look beyond these sources.
AR 7 line 124A: http://tinyurl.com/297hfyk
Ronny Bodine's Champernoun: http://tinyurl.com/388ndks
AR7 actually actually shows 2 Henry's, but I probably dropped one to
follow Bodine's construction. Is there a reason you no longer think
Mabel and Jordon Champernoun had a son Henry since it is a line you
developed? And do you think Ronny is wrong given his evidence?
Joe Cochoit
Joe Cochoit
There is also this snippet view I found on a quick search:
http://tinyurl.com/28v5x8h
Now Mabira, the mother of Henry Champernowne, was a daughter
of Robert Fitz-Roy, and though I suppose Robert could have provided
for his grandson out of his wife's dower- lands with her consent, it
seems impossible that he could have ...
Does anyone have easy access to Devon & Cornwall Notes & Queries:
Volume 21 to see this article which apparently discusses Henry as a
son of Mabira (Mabel).
Joe
Douglas Richardson
Ronny Bodine cites a record that indicates that Henry de Champernoun
was the brother of Jordan de Champernoun. I believe this would be the
Henry de Champernoun living in 1166. If so, he would appear to be
the brother (not son) of the Jordan de Champernoun who married Mabel
Fitz Robert.
If so, that would break the line you show for Agnes Harris going back
to William the Conqueror.
Douglas Richardson
I presume the Devon & Cornwall article you have cited identifies Henry
de Champernoun, living 1166, as the son of Jordan de Champernoun, who
married Mabel Fitz Robert. This is surely an error.
Following Jordan de Champernoun's death, his widow, Mabel, married
(2nd) William de Solers. Her younger son by this marriage was Richard
de Solers (died 1213), of Faccombe, Hampshire, who was the 1st husband
of Alice de Huntingfield, daughter of William de Huntingfeld, the
Magna Carta Baron.
Chronologically it is impossible for Richard de Solers, died 1213, to
have been the half-brother of Henry de Champernoun, living 1166.
Richard de Solers' heirs in England were his two sisters, Philippe de
Solers (wife of _____ de Punchardon) and Joan de Solers, wife of
William Cosyn. Philippe de Solers had two sons, Oliver and Robert de
Punchardson. Joan de Solers had a daughter, Hawise Cosyn, wife of
William Malherbe. This information is based on my own original
research.
I believe there are modern descendants of the Solers sisters, who
would have a valid descent from Robert Fitz Roy, Earl of Gloucester,
the illegitimate son of King Henry I of England. But descendants of
Henry de Champernoun, living 1166, would not have this descent.
Douglas Richardson
As a following up to my earlier comments, I find there is an item in
the Calendar of Charter Rolls,1 (1903): 249 which indicates that in
1240 John des Mares and Agatha his wife reached an agreement with
Robert de Punchardon and William Malherbe and Hawise his wife
“touching the manor of Hamford [Hanford, Dorset], which belonged to
the said Robert, William and Hawise, of the inheritance of Mabel de
Solariis .... by which agreement the said Robert, William and Hawise
granted the said manor to the said John and Agatha and the heirs of
the body of Agatha to be held of the said Robert, William and Hawise.”
This item may be viewed at the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=rrsKAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA249
The parties named in this record, Robert de Punchardon and Hawise,
wife of William Malherbe, were the co-heirs of their uncle, Roger de
Solers (died 1213), of Faccombe, Hampshire, which Roger was in turn
the younger son of Mabel Fitz Robert, wife successively of Jordan de
Champernoun and William de Solers.
"Mabel de Solariis" named in the above record is, of course, Mabel
Fitz Robert. Mabel Fitz Robert was a great-grandchild of King Henry I
of England.
If anyone knows any descendants of the Punchardon and Malherbe
families, I'd appreciated hearing from them here on the newsgroup.
Joe Cochoit
Thanks Doug,
I have a couple points and questions. I understand you are
interpreting the same data differently, but it is different than given
in Ronny Bodine’s post. http://tinyurl.com/388ndks
He says Jordon and Henry Champernoun are named as brothers in the
Cartulary of Montebourg; that this is Jordon, the son Jordon and
Mabel. I don’t think the 1166 date refers to this reference in the
Cartulary of Montebourg. So this record may still be saying that
Jordon, son of Jordon Champernoun, had a brother Henry. I do not find
a copy of the Cartulary of Montebourg online so I have no way of
attempting to date it.
The real question is not whether Henry and Jordon Champernoun who held
land in 1166 are brothers or not, but are the Henry and Jordon
Champernoun who both occur as holding various knight fees from
1190-1212 in the Honour of Gloucester brothers. It seems possible if
not likely that Jordon Champernoun, and Henry Champernoun who both
held various knight fees of the Honour of Gloucester in 1201-1212 were
both sons of Jordon Champernoun and his wife Mabel.
I assume when you say ‘chronologically it is impossible for Richard de
Solers, died 1213, to have been the half-brother of Henry de
Champernoun, living 1166,’ you are also saying it is chronologically
impossible for Jordon Champernoun living 1166 to have been the half-
brother of Richard de Solers. Your inference then is the Jordon
Champernoun who occurs in the ‘Scutage Return of 1166 … holding the
old Campernon fief in Normandy and 7 knights' fees in the Honour of
Gloucester in England,’ was incorrectly called Jordon Jr. by Ronny
Bodine. Any idea why Ronny thought the Scutage Return referred to the
son and not the father?
Finally, with regard to Rohese de Tracy the wife of Henry Champernoun,
my understanding is that her lineage through the Tracy family was
questioned because she would have a consanguineous relationship with
her husband (both being descendants of Henry I). If you are correct
that Henry Champernoun is not a son Mabel de Caen, is this problem
solved?
Joe
WJho...@aol.com
royala...@msn.com writes:
> "Mabel de Solariis" named in the above record is, of course, Mabel
> Fitz Robert. Mabel Fitz Robert was a great-grandchild of King Henry I
> of England.
>
How is that?
duns...@yahoo.com
years ago and read the article in DCNQ that Joe referred to earlier.
Being on holidays at present I don't have my notes to hand. However I
do recall coming to the same conclusion as Douglas, namely that
chronological considerations did not permit the Henry C of 1166 to be
the son of the Jordan C who married Mabel.
The reference to Henry C in 1166 would be a reference to the Cartae
Baronium and not to a charter from Montebourg. The charter as I
understand it is undated.
As I recall it though the chronology also indicated that there were
two Henrys in the direct line for the Ilfracombe and Modbury
Champernownes. The range of dates chronologically does not seem to
permit these references to a Henry C to all relate to just the one
person. The Henry of 1166 is therefore the eldest of these.
You will find information on the early Champernownws in Round’s
“Calendars of Documents from France”, which was a source for the DCNQ
article, and also in the Devon and Cornwall Society’s publication
“Charters of the Redvers family”. Mabira is called daughter of “Count
Robert” in the former. I agree though that she was the daughter of
Robert FitzRobert, not Robert of Gloucester (his father).
There are other grounds for questioning the marriage of Henry C
(junior) to a de Tracy apart from possible consanguinity through the
de Pomerays. From memory Rose was identified as a de Tracy because
Clist Wick, was said to be Henry le Bossu de Tracy’s mother’s
maritagium. However it seems that the de Tracy properties were
inherited by (from memory) Henry’s sister Grace de Tracy and this is
inconsistent with Rose being the heiress of Henry de Tracy.
See also the following series of posts:
Hope this helps
Douglas Richardson
< In a message dated 12/21/2010 9:35:11 PM Pacific Standard Time,
<
< > "Mabel de Solariis" named in the above record is, of course, Mabel
< > Fitz Robert. Mabel Fitz Robert was a great-grandchild of King
Henry I
< > of England.
<
< How is that?
1. Henry I, King of England, by an unknown mistress, had:
2. Robert Fitz Roy, Earl of Gloucester, married Mabel Fitz Hamon.
3. Robert Fitz Robert, of Conerton, Cornwell, Castellan of Gloucester,
married Hawise de Redvers (or Rivers), daughter of Baldwin de Redvers,
1st Earl of Devon.
4. Mabel Fitz Robert, married (1st) Jordan de Champernoun (or
Chambernoun), seigneur of Cambernon and Maisoncelles in Normandy, and
of Umberleigh and High Bickington, Devon; (2nd) Guillaume (or William)
de Solers (or
Soliers).
DR
Douglas Richardson
For those of you who are interested in such things, there are
descriptions of seals of Mabel Fitz Robert's two sons, Jordan and
Richard de Champernoun, which are included in the book, Douet d’Arcq,
Collection de Sceaux des Archives de l’Empire 1(1) (1863): 522. This
material may be viewed at the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=WIGCaUs1pDkC&pg=PA522
The seals in questions were appended to a charter of Jordan de
Champernoun in favor of Savigny Abbey.
The seals indicate that the two brothers bore a saltire vair as their
arms.
This compares favorably with the arms used by the Devonshire
descendants of their ?uncle, Henry de Champernoun, as reported by
Vivian:
Gules a saltire Vair between twelve billets Or, a crescent for
difference.
Does anyone have access to the charters of Savigny Abbey?