Oliver Cromwell's royal ancestors?
Merilyn Pedrick
page 44 an article about Oliver Cromwell's royal ancestors, and wondered if
someone here would be able to verify what is written about the ancestors of
his great great grandfather Morgan Williams who married Catherine Cromwell,
the sister of the Tudor statesman Thomas Cromwell (hero of the recent book
Wolf Hall).
This article says that Morgan Williams "... was the son of Joan Tudor, a
woman who was probably the illegitimate daughter of Jasper Tudor. His father
Owen, had started the family fortune by marrying Catherin of Valois, the
daughter of Charles VI of France and Isabeau, a Bavarian aristocrat from the
House of Wittelsbach. Her first marriage to Henry V of England thus brought
topgether three of the great houses of Europe. Her second marriage to Owen
brought into being the Tudor royal dynasty that would take the throne with
her grandson Henry VII.
As a descendant through the male line of Owen, Cromwell was hence a member
of the Tudor dynasty that his Stuart enemy had replaced. In 1657, when
parliament offered him the throne, such a family tree might have come in
useful, but Cromwell chose to decline and play down his regal links."
Is this right?
Merilyn Pedrick
taf
Umm, I don't know about genealogical reality, but this is not even
internally consistent. It says that he descends from Morgan Williams,
who married the daughter of Jasper Tudor, and hence he does not
descend from Tudor in the male line.
taf
John
> Dear Merilyn ~
>
> Thank you for your good post.
>
> Jasper Tudor, Duke of Bedford, died 21 Dec. 1495, had one proven
> illegitimate daughter, Ellen, who married (1st) William Gardiner, of
> London, skinner (died 1485), and (2nd) William Sibson, of London,
> skinner. Ellen and her 1st husband, William Gardiner, had one son,
> Thomas [Prior of Blyth, Prior of Tynemouth], and four daughters,
> Philippe, Margaret, Beatrice, and Anne. Ellen was last known to be
> living in 1501–2, when Peter Watson, of London, draper, and William
> Sybson, husband of Ellen, late the wife of William Gardiner, sued the
> mayor, aldermen, and sheriffs of London in Chancery on behalf of the
> children of William Gardiner, to recover the portion of William’s son,
> Thomas Gardiner, who had entered Westminster Abbey [see National
> Archives, C 1/252/12].
>
> I suspect Ellen Tudor has descendants, but I haven't been able to
> verify marriages for any of her four Gardiner daughters.
>
> Jasper Tudor probably also had an illegitimate son, Owen Tudor, who
> died in 1501. In 1502 King Henry VII paid £3 1s. 2d. to Morgan
> Kidwelly, former Attorney-General, towards the expenses of the burial
> of this individual [see Bentley, Excerpta Historica (1833): 128].
> Morgan Kidwelly was an executor of the will of Duke Jasper Tudor.
>
> I know of no illegitimate daughter of Jasper Tudor named Joan, who was
> the mother of Morgan Williams. I believe she is fictitious.
>
> Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
I doubt that there's any historical basis for referring (as in the
subject line) to Jasper Tudor, Duke of Bedford, as "Duke Jasper
Tudor". Just carelessness here....
Peter Stewart
"John" <jhigg...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c64c1f59-73ad-417b...@i32g2000pri.googlegroups.com...
>
> I doubt that there's any historical basis for referring (as in the
> subject line) to Jasper Tudor, Duke of Bedford, as "Duke Jasper
> Tudor". Just carelessness here....
Quite right, John - but ignorance rather than carelessness in this case.
It will be interesting to see how Richardson tries explaining why standard
name forms must be imposed on medieval people while convention is so
clumsily flouted in the use of titles.
Peter Stewart
Merilyn Pedrick
It says that Morgan Williams was the son of Joan Tudor. - not his wife.
Morgan's wife was Katherine Cromwell, the sister of Thomas.
Merilyn
-------Original Message-------
From: taf
Date: 26/11/2010 4:45:20 PM
To: gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Oliver Cromwell's royal ancestors?
On Nov 25, 8:25 pm, "Merilyn Pedrick"
<merilyn.pedr...@internode.on.net> wrote:
> I have just opened my October edition of the BBC History Magazine to find
on
> page 44 an article about Oliver Cromwell's royal ancestors, and wondered
if
> someone here would be able to verify what is written about the ancestors
of
> his great great grandfather Morgan Williams who married Catherine Cromwell
> Wolf Hall).
>
> This article says that Morgan Williams "... was the son of Joan Tudor, a
> woman who was probably the illegitimate daughter of Jasper Tudor. His
father
> Owen, had started the family fortune by marrying Catherin of Valois, the
> daughter of Charles VI of France and Isabeau, a Bavarian aristocrat from
the
> House of Wittelsbach. Her first marriage to Henry V of England thus
brought
> topgether three of the great houses of Europe. Her second marriage to Owen
> brought into being the Tudor royal dynasty that would take the throne with
> her grandson Henry VII.
>
> As a descendant through the male line of Owen, Cromwell was hence a member
> of the Tudor dynasty that his Stuart enemy had replaced. In 1657, when
> parliament offered him the throne, such a family tree might have come in
> useful, but Cromwell chose to decline and play down his regal links."
>
> Is this right?
Umm, I don't know about genealogical reality, but this is not even
internally consistent. It says that he descends from Morgan Williams,
who married the daughter of Jasper Tudor, and hence he does not
descend from Tudor in the male line.
taf
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message
.
WJho...@aol.com
merilyn...@internode.on.net writes:
> Hi Todd
> It says that Morgan Williams was the son of Joan Tudor. - not his wife.
> Morgan's wife was Katherine Cromwell, the sister of Thomas.
> Merilyn
>
I have poked at this for an hour or so, and so far find exactly zero
support. Nothing at all. For Morgan's wife being named Joan anything, Tudor or
otherwise. I did find one usually reliable source (secondary) which claims
her name was Margaret Smythe.
Merilyn, I think it would be wise to poke at the career of Morgan himself,
to see if he appears to have been a well-placed person? Or a minor nobody.
Regardless of his distance from H8, the mere fact of their shirt-tale
relationship should make him show up in records somewhat, clarifying exactly his
status in life.
That's where to start. Not from some kind of utterly ridiculous claim in a
rag claiming to be "historical" (by which I suppose they mean incredulous),
that should be taken out back and shot :) The editor of that magazine
should be held up to public ridicule and comtempt, then dragged through the
street and thrown into the Tiber.
It's much more likely, if this claim is even ancient at all, that it was a
fiction being used to bolster a position for the much later Cromwell's then
that it is actually citable to a contemporary source.
Will
Merilyn Pedrick
Thanks so much for that explanation. I rather thought that was the case,
since I hadn't seen a reference to Joan Tudor before.
Is it known who Morgan Williams's mother was?
Best wishes
Merilyn Pedrick
-------Original Message-------
From: Douglas Richardson
Date: 27/11/2010 6:35:12 AM
Subject: Duke Jasper Tudor's illegitimate children
Dear Merilyn ~
Thank you for your good post.
Jasper Tudor, Duke of Bedford, died 21 Dec. 1495, had one proven
Illegitimate daughter, Ellen, who married (1st) William Gardiner, of
London, skinner (died 1485), and (2nd) William Sibson, of London,
Skinner. Ellen and her 1st husband, William Gardiner, had one son,
Thomas [Prior of Blyth, Prior of Tynemouth], and four daughters,
Philippe, Margaret, Beatrice, and Anne. Ellen was last known to be
Living in 1501–2, when Peter Watson, of London, draper, and William
Sybson, husband of Ellen, late the wife of William Gardiner, sued the
Mayor, aldermen, and sheriffs of London in Chancery on behalf of the
Children of William Gardiner, to recover the portion of William’s son,
Thomas Gardiner, who had entered Westminster Abbey [see National
Archives, C 1/252/12].
I suspect Ellen Tudor has descendants, but I haven't been able to
Verify marriages for any of her four Gardiner daughters.
Jasper Tudor probably also had an illegitimate son, Owen Tudor, who
Died in 1501. In 1502 King Henry VII paid £3 1s. 2d. To Morgan
Kidwelly, former Attorney-General, towards the expenses of the burial
Of this individual [see Bentley, Excerpta Historica (1833): 128].
Morgan Kidwelly was an executor of the will of Duke Jasper Tudor.
I know of no illegitimate daughter of Jasper Tudor named Joan, who was
The mother of Morgan Williams. I believe she is fictitious.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
On Nov 25, 9:25 PM, "Merilyn Pedrick"
<merilyn.pedr...@internode.on.net> wrote:
< I have just opened my October edition of the BBC History Magazine to
Find on
< page 44 an article about Oliver Cromwell's royal ancestors, and
Wondered if
< someone here would be able to verify what is written about the
Ancestors of
< his great great grandfather Morgan Williams who married Catherine
Cromwell,
< the sister of the Tudor statesman Thomas Cromwell (hero of the
Recent book
< Wolf Hall).
< This article says that Morgan Williams "... Was the son of Joan
Tudor, a
< woman who was probably the illegitimate daughter of Jasper Tudor.
His father
< Owen, had started the family fortune by marrying Catherin of
Valois, the
< daughter of Charles VI of France and Isabeau, a Bavarian aristocrat
>From the
< House of Wittelsbach. Her first marriage to Henry V of England thus
Brought
< topgether three of the great houses of Europe. Her second marriage
To Owen
< brought into being the Tudor royal dynasty that would take the
Throne with
< her grandson Henry VII.
<
< As a descendant through the male line of Owen, Cromwell was hence a
Member
< of the Tudor dynasty that his Stuart enemy had replaced. In 1657,
When
< parliament offered him the throne, such a family tree might have
Come in
< useful, but Cromwell chose to decline and play down his regal
Links."
< Is this right?
>
> Merilyn Pedrick
>
>
-------------------------------
Douglas Richardson
<merilyn.pedr...@internode.on.net> wrote:
< Dear Douglas
<
< Thanks so much for that explanation. I rather thought that was the
case,
< since I hadn't seen a reference to Joan Tudor before.
You're quite welcome, Merilyn.
DR
John
> "John" <jhiggins...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
And now DR, rather than admitting his error or defending his
(indefensible) position, has simply deleted his original post from SGM
to try to cover up his mistake. Of course it's a pointless effort
since the post remains in Rootsweb's Gen-Medieval and in quotes in
this thread. He never learns....
John
> In a message dated 11/26/2010 4:05:32 PM Pacific Standard Time,
>
> > Hi Todd
> > It says that Morgan Williams was the son of Joan Tudor. - not his wife.
> > Morgan's wife was Katherine Cromwell, the sister of Thomas.
> > Merilyn
>
> I have poked at this for an hour or so, and so far find exactly zero
> support. Nothing at all. For Morgan's wife being named Joan anything, Tudor or
> otherwise. I did find one usually reliable source (secondary) which claims
> her name was Margaret Smythe.
>
> Merilyn, I think it would be wise to poke at the career of Morgan himself,
> to see if he appears to have been a well-placed person? Or a minor nobody.
> Regardless of his distance from H8, the mere fact of their shirt-tale
> relationship should make him show up in records somewhat, clarifying exactly his
> status in life.
>
I don't know if CP counts as a "usually reliable source" in your eyes,
but CP 3:555 confirms Merilyn's statement that the wife of Morgan
Williams was Catherine (not Margaret) of the two sisters of Thomas
Cromwell, Earl of Essex, the well-known minister of Henry VIII. The
Smythe surname comes into the picture because CP identifies the father
of Thomas and Catherine as "Walter Cromwell, otherwise Smyth, of
Putney, Sussex, fuller and shearer of cloth, as also brewer and
blacksmith".
Walter Cromwell was certainly "a minor nobody" and so apparently was
Morgan Williams, identified by CP as an "ale brewer and innkeeper at
Putney". The attempt to connect Morgan Williams to the Tudor family
is almost certainly a forgery of the 16th or 17th century. There
apparently was a similar effort to provide Thomas Cromwell with a more
distinguished lineage by connection to the earlier Barons Cromwell.
This latter effort is a minor plot element in the excellent 2009 novel
"Wolf Hall" by Hilary Mantel which is based on Thomas Cromwell's life
(actually, the 1st part of his life, up to his role in the death of
Anne Boleyn - I'm hoping there will be a sequel) .
WJho...@aol.com
> > I have poked at this for an hour or so, and so far find exactly zero
> > support. Nothing at all. For Morgan's wife being named Joan anything,
> Tudor or
> > otherwise. I did find one usually reliable source (secondary) which
> claims
> > her name was Margaret Smythe.
>
You're right John I mistyped. This Margaret Smythe was said to be Morgan's
*mother* not his wife.
I tried to find something more on this but it's either false and confused
(as you say a Smith/Smythe was also his mother-in-law), or else it's so
obscure that we're not going to be able to find anything more on it.
W
taf
<merilyn.pedr...@internode.on.net> wrote:
> Hi Todd
> It says that Morgan Williams was the son of Joan Tudor. - not his wife.
> Morgan's wife was Katherine Cromwell, the sister of Thomas.
> Merilyn
>
>
And that makes him a male line descendant?
taf