Helen of Strathearn, daughter of Joanna de Menteith (revisited)
The...@aol.com
Hello (and Happy New Year to) All,
In a previous thread, the dispensation (9 Oct 1353) for the
marriage of Sir David de Graham and Helen of Strathearn was noted,
and the basis for the relationship described [1], as well as the
impact on the ancestry of their son Sir Patrick Graham and his
descendants. In the first post of that thread, I suggested an
interesting possibility: that Sir Patrick’s mother, Helen of
Strathearn, was actually a daughter of Earl Malise (d. 1328) by
his 2nd wife, Joanna de Menteith, instead of his unknown 1st
wife [2].
Support for this hypothesis has been found in the dispensa-
tion for the marriage of Archibald Douglas and Euphemia Graham.
Dated 26 June 1425, this dispensation states [in part] that they
entered into marriage, but " afterward found to be related on one
side in the double 3rd degree, and on the other side in the
double 4th degree [of consanguinity] from diverse stocks " [3].
The one well-known 3rd degree relationship, on the mother’s side
for each, is from common descent from Robert II, King of Scots
(see AT for each, and discussion, below). One of the 4th degree
relationships, on the father’s side for each, would result from
common descent from Joanna de Menteith, as follows:
1) Malise = Joanna de = 3) Sir Maurice
E of Strathearn I Menteith I Murray, d. 1346
d. 1328 __I I________________
I I
Sir David = Helen Sir Thomas = Joanna
Graham I Murray I Murray
______I I______
I I
Sir Patrick = (2) Egidia Archibald = Joanna
Graham I Stewart Douglas I Murray
________I _______I
I I
Sir Patrick = Euphemia Archibald = Margaret
Graham I Stewart Douglas I Stewart
I______ __________I
I I
Euphemia = Archibald
Graham I Douglas
V
I am working on a conjecture concerning Sir John Stewart of
Railston, great-grandfather of Euphemia Graham, which may resolve
the other 4th degree relationship cited in the dispensation.
What is at least as interesting as the above, is that there is
another 3rd degree relationship between Archibald Douglas and
Euphemia Graham on the mother’s side. The grandparents of these
two are well-known members of the Stewart, Douglas and Graham
families, with the single weak link being the alleged
identification of the wife of David Stewart, Earl of Caithness as
a daughter of Sir Alexander Lindsay of Glenesk, given in Scots
Peerage.
I would suggest, based on the relationship cited in the above
dispensation, that the wife of Earl David Stewart and mother of
Euphemia Stewart (mother of Euphemia Graham) was a hitherto
unidentified daughter of Sir John Drummond of Cargill and Stobhall
by his wife Mary de Montfichet [4]. The two relationships in
the 3rd degree, or "double third degree" as stated in the
dispensation for Archibald Douglas and Euphemia Graham, would then
appear as follows:
1) Elizabeth Mure = Robert II = 2) Euphemia of Ross
________________I I______________
I I
I Sir John = Mary de I
I Drummond I Montfichet I
I ___________I______ I
I I I I
Robert III = Annabela NN = David Stewart
K of Scots I Drummond Drummond I E of Strathearn
I______ I_________
I I
Archibald = Margaret Sir Patrick = Euphemia
Douglas I Stewart Graham I Stewart
I______ __________I
I I
Archibald = Euphemia
Douglas I Graham
V
Further documentation to prove or disprove this conjecture is
being sought. As to the 4th degree relationship set forth above
(common descent of Archibald Douglas and Euphemia Graham from
Joanna de Menteith), if anyone wishes to have the full text of
the dispensation, please advise and I will forward a copy (as a
.pdf attachment) directly. Should anyone have relevant
documentation, comment or criticism, that will be welcome.
Cheers,
John *
NOTES
[1] J. Ravilious, Dianne Sheppard and Will Johnson, <SP Addition:
Helen of Strathearn, wife of Sir David Graham>, SGM, Nov
2005. The text for the dispensation, from Bliss, ed.
Calendar of Entries in the Papal Registers
relating to Great Britain and Ireland: Papal Letters,
Vol. III (A.D. 1342 - 1362) [London: PRO, 1897, reprinted
1971], p. 514:
" 1353.
7 Id. Oct. To David de Grame, knight, and Helen, relict
Avignon. of Reginald Chene, knight, of the dioceses of
(f. 448.) Brechin and St. Andrews.
Dispensation, at the request of John, king
of France, to intermarry, they being related
in the fourth degree of kindred. [Theiner, 305.] "
[2] J. Ravilious, ibid. I also noted that Andrew MacEwen had
pointed out that the chronology was ‘tight’ and he felt
did not work well with this hypothesis.
[3] Andrew Stuart, Genealogical History of the Stuarts, from
the earliest period of their authentic history to the
present times (London: Printed for A. Strahan, and T.
Cadell Jun. and W. Davies, in the Strand, 1798), p. 455.
[4] Ancestry of Archibald Douglas and Euphemia Graham, as
known and conjectured at this time, are as follows
(conjectured identifications noted as such):
AT for Archibald Douglas:
1. Archibald Douglas, Earl of Douglas, d. 26 Jun 1439
2. Archibald Douglas, Earl of Douglas, k. Verneuil 16 Aug 1424
3. Margaret Stewart
4. Archibald ‘the Grim’, Earl of Douglas, d. ca. 1400
5. Joanna Murray
6. Robert III, King of Scots
7. Annabela Drummond
8. Sir James ‘the Good’ Douglas, k. 25 Aug 1300
9. NN (not married)
10. Sir Thomas Murray of Bothwell
11. Joanna Murray
12. Robert II, King of Scots
13. Elizabeth Mure
14. Sir John Drummond
15. Mary de Montfichet
16. Sir William Douglas ‘le Hardi’, d. bef 24 Jan 1298/9
17. Elizabeth Stewart
18. NN
19. NN
20. Sir Andrew Murray of Bothwell
21. NN (1st wife)
22. Sir Maurice Murray of Drumsegard
23. Joanna de Menteith [See Below, #19]
24. Walter Stewart
25. Marjory Bruce, dau. of Robert I, King of Scots
26. Sir Adam Mure
27. Jean (Joanna) Cunningham
28. Sir Malcolm Drummond
29. NN
30. Sir William de Montfichet
31. NN
AT for Euphemia Graham:
1. Euphemia Graham, m. Archibald Douglas bef 26 Jun 1425
2. Sir Patrick Graham, Earl of Strathearn (dju), d. 10 Aug 1413
3. Euphemia Stewart, suo jure Countess of Strathearn
4. Sir Patrick Graham, d. aft 6 May 1400
5. Egidia Stewart
6. David Stewart, Earl of Strathearn and Caithness
7. [CONJECTURED] NN Drummond
8. Sir David de Graham, d. aft 4 Apr 1373
9. Helen of Strathearn
10. Sir John Stewart of Railston
11. NN
12. Robert II, King of Scots
13. Euphemia of Ross (2nd wife)
14. [CONJECTURED] Sir John Drummond
15. [CONJECTURED] Mary de Montfichet
16. Sir David de Graham
17. NN
18. Malise, Earl of Strathearn, d. 1328
19. Joanna de Menteith [See Above, #23]
20. Walter Stewart
21. Isabel Graham (2nd wife)
22. NN
23. NN
24. Walter Stewart
25. Marjory Bruce, dau. of Robert I, King of Scots
26. Hugh, Earl of Ross, d. 19 Jul 1333
27. Margaret Graham
28. [CONJECTURED] Sir Malcolm Drummond
29. NN
30. [CONJECTURED] Sir William de Montfichet
31. NN
* John P. Ravilious
WJho...@aol.com
<< Sir David = Helen Sir Thomas = Joanna
Graham I Murray I Murray
______I I______
I I
Sir Patrick = (2) Egidia Archibald = Joanna
Graham I Stewart Douglas I Murray
________I _______I >>
Why the additional Joanna Murray ?
I have that Maurice and Joanna had dispensation to marry on 10 Jul 1339
Joanna de Menteith, Countess of Strathearn was probably born no earlier than
1302 since she is having three more children with her last husband William,
5th Earl of Sutherland after 1347.
So my database shows her daughter Joanna Murray (Moray) as the wife of both
Sir Thomas Murray (Moray) *and* Archibald Douglas. whom she married 23 Jul 1362
(www.genealogics.org)
Will Johnson
John P. Ravilious
The conflation of the two Joanna's [de Menteith, and her daughter
Joanna Murray) into one is a standard treatment, but is in error.
Andrew MacEwen advised Douglas Richardson some time ago (who kindly
advised me subsequently) as follows:
" Archibald Douglas, 3rd Earl of Douglas, married Joan,
daughter and heiress of Sir Thomas Moray, of Bothwell, not his widow,
Joan
daughter and heiress of Morice Moray, Earl of Stratherne. Andrew says
it is
true that Archibald received a dispensation to marry Thomas Moray's
widow
but she appears to have died in a plague which hit Scotland in 1362 and
Archibald married her daughter instead. Andrew says the evidence is
good
that Archibald Douglas's wife, Joan, was the heiress of Bothwell which
was a
Moray property. She would not be the heiress of Bothwell if she had
only
been the widow of Sir Thomas Moray."
' Johanna de Moravia, Lady of Drumsagard', issued a charter
confirmed by her mother Johanna de Menteith, ca. 1370 [Chart.
Inchaffray, lxix, citing Laing Charters]. This was Joanna de Murray,
wife of Thomas Murray of Bothwell: her daughter, Joanna Murray, brought
Bothwell (as her inheritance, not dower) to her husband Archibald
Douglas.
Cheers,
John
The...@aol.com
WJho...@aol.com
Joanna de Menteith, Countess of Strathean married four times.
Her third husband Maurice died at the Battle of Neville's Cross, after which
she married William, 5th Earl of Sutherland and had at least three *more*
children. She could not have been born before 1302 unless she was trying to set a
record for the oldest mother.
She married her first husband abt 1323
Her 2nd husband did 19 Jul 1333 Halidon Hall and the dispensation for her to
marry her 3rd husband was dated 10 Jul 1339 and he died 17 Oct 1346 So your
purported Joanna Moray (Murray) [the 1st] could only have been born between 1340
and 1347 (the last year posthumously).
If Joanna is supposed to have died in a plague in 1362 she could have been 22
at the oldest and 15 at the youngest.
Heraldry of the Royal Families states that her son Archibald, 3rd Earl of
Douglas was born in 1369 and he died 17 Aug 1424 at the battle of Verneuil after
having at least two children. His daughter Elizabeth was perhaps born by 1405
she is married in 1413.
I can't see how likely it is that there is another generation in here, it
seems too tight to afford that.
Will Johnson
WJho...@aol.com
writes:
<< Andrew says the evidence is good that
Archibald Douglas's wife, Joan, was the heiress of Bothwell
which was a Moray property. She would not be the heiress of
Bothwell if she had only been the widow of Sir Thomas Moray." >>
Yes but another possibility is that Thomas Moray and Joan Moray were already
related when they married, and she inherited not as his widow, nor as his
daughter, but as the remaining heir from some last past ancestor.
Will Johnson
Claud...@aol.com
The barony of Bothwell belonged to Walter Olifard. He died in 1242. His
granddaughter and eventual heir [daughter of Walter's son David Olifard by his
wife Joanna -- see Glasgow Register edited by Cosmo Innes, Maitland Club, 1843,
pp. 103] took the barony of Bothwell to her husband Walter of Moravia.
Walter of Moravia confirmed a grant of David Olifard to Dryburgh Abbey of a
carrucate of land in Smalham on Sept. 18, 1278 [Liber S. Marie de Dryburgh edited
by John Spotiswood, Bannatyne Club, 1847, pp. 109-110]. This is how the barony
came into the possession of the Moray family.
If we look at the chronology Joanna de Menteith married Maurice de Moravia
ca. July 11, 1339. That means Joanna Moray their daughter was not born before
1340. She could not have been born later than 1347, if she were born
posthumously, as her father died at the battle of Neville's Cross on Oct. 17, 1346.
She would have died at age 22 [ at the latest] if the theory is correct that
she died of the plague in 1362. Trying to place a child by Thomas Moray into
this scheme would mean that the child would have been born before 1361. At
the earliest the child would have been born in 1355 marrying Archibald
Douglas [a man of 37 at the time] in 1362. If we grant that Archibald Douglas the
eldest son was born at least by 1372 his mother would have been 17 at the
maximum and his father 47. This seems very unlikely.
The best explanation appears to be that Joanna Moray inherited the barony of
Bothwell as Will suggested which can be shown as her father was the second
cousin of her husband Thomas Moray and the only heir to Bothwell upon his
death. Andrew Moray of Bothwell and William Moray of Drumsagard were half
brothers. Andrew Moray of Bothwell [died 1297 at Stirling Bridge] left a son
Andrew Moray [died 1338] and he left two sons as his eventual heirs. The eldest
son John Moray died dsp before Sep. 5, 1351 and was succeeded by his younger
brother Thomas Moray who died dsp in 1361. The barony would then have passed to
the closest relatives which was the line of William of Drumsagard whose sole
heir at that time was Joanna widow of Thomas Moray of Bothwell. She brought
Bothwell as her inheritance from her deceased husband [as his closest living
relative] to her second husband Archibald Douglas. Archibald Douglas granted
a portion of the barony to the Collegiate church at Bothwell in 1398.
This fits well with the given chronology and appears the most plausible
explanation.
Best regards,
MichaelAnne
John P. Ravilious
Dear MichaelAnne (et al.),
Many thanks for your detailed response and explanation.
Comments/observations interspersed.
Dear Will, John, etal,
The barony of Bothwell belonged to Walter Olifard. He died in
1242. His
granddaughter and eventual heir [daughter of Walter's son David Olifard
by his
wife Joanna -- see Glasgow Register edited by Cosmo Innes, Maitland
Club, 1843,
pp. 103] took the barony of Bothwell to her husband Walter of Moravia.
Walter of Moravia confirmed a grant of David Olifard to Dryburgh Abbey
of a
carrucate of land in Smalham on Sept. 18, 1278 [Liber S. Marie de
Dryburgh edited
by John Spotiswood, Bannatyne Club, 1847, pp. 109-110]. This is how
the barony
came into the possession of the Moray family.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
There is a bit of variance here between the above account and
that provided in the VCH account for Oakington, co. Cambs. The
descent of this English manor mirrors in some early respects your
account for Bothwell, but diverges a bit, esp. in that this Murray
line ends with one William de Murray, who d.s.p. in/about 1300. A
closer inspection appears to be merited.
from VCH Cambridge, IX:195-99, re: Oakington, Cambs.:
' It had been held in demesne since the early 12th century by the
Olifards of Lilford (Northants.), (Footnote 17) including probably Hugh
Olifard by 1130, (Footnote 18) William Olifard, a vassal of the king of
Scots, c. 1155-70, (Footnote 19) and John Olifard, c. 1175- 80.
(Footnote 20) It then passed to descendants of William's brother David
(d. c. 1170), settled in Scotland, and was considered a dependency of
Lilford. David's son Walter, lord before 1216, (Footnote 21) was
succeeded by his son and namesake, who c. 1235 held 2½ hides at
Oakington as 1 knight's fee, (Footnote 22) and died in 1242. His son
and heir David, lord by 1244, (Footnote 23) died without issue,
probably before 1250. Oakington remained for her life with his widow
Dervorguilla, who occupied it until the 1290s. In 1279 the whole
Olifard demesne, 1½ hides, was held under 'the lady of Lilford' in fee
farm. (Footnote 24) The heir was Walter of Moray (d. 1284), son of
David's sister, (Footnote 25) whose son William (d.s.p. 1300) conveyed
his right in Oakington with Lilford between 1296 and 1299 to Anthony
Bek, bishop of Durham, (Footnote 26) lord there c. 1302. (Footnote 27)
'
footnotes:
15e.g. Liber de Bernewelle, 241; Bk. of Fees, ii. 938.
16Close R. 1242-7, 206; cf. Rot. Hund. (Rec. Com.), ii. 449.
17For the Olifards, Scots Peerage, ed. J. B. Paul, vi. 522- 9;
Farrer, Honors and Knights' Fees, i. 354-5.
18Pipe R. 1130 (H.M.S.O. facsimile), 48; cf. ibid. 85.
19Pipe R. 1156-8 (Rec. Com.), 166; 1163 (P.R.S. v), 38; 1170 (P.R.S.
xvi), 198.
20Ibid. 1177 (P.R.S. xxvi), 185; 1180 (P.R.S. xxix), 35; 1181 (P.R.S.
xxx), 95.
21Rot. Litt. Claus. (Rec. Com.), i. 286.
22Liber de Bernewelle, 241; cf. B.L. Add. MS. 5805, f. 50.
23Close R. 1242-7, 206.
24Rot. Hund. ii. 449; cf. Cal. Chanc. Wts. i. 66-8, 107.
25For the Morays, Scots Peerage, ii. 122-5.
26Cal. Chanc. Wts. i. 68, 107; cf. Cal. Pat. 1292-1301, 184; Cal.
Inq. p.m. iv, pp. 502-3.
27Feud. Aids, i. 148.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
If we look at the chronology Joanna de Menteith married Maurice de
Moravia
ca. July 11, 1339. That means Joanna Moray their daughter was not born
before
1340.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Chronology is in fact a crucial element, but what the chronology
does, and does not, substantiate is critical.
The source of the 1339 date above, and what that date actually
represents, is important. We know during this same period that
certain
individuals (Robert the Stewart and Elizabeth Mure are a good example)
were busy producing issue, without benefit of a 'clean' marital bill
of
health, and only being dispensed to marry many years after the fact.
John Campbell, Earl of Athol and Joanna de Menteith's 2nd husband,
was slain at Halidon Hill on 19 July 1333. It appears unlikely that
Joanna actually remained unattached from July 1333 until 1339: if the
1339 date represents either (A) a marriage, or (B) a dispensation to
marry, we cannot rely on even that to define when Sir Maurice Murray
and Joanna de Menteith could have, or would have, produced a child.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
explanation.
Best regards,
MichaelAnne
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
The theoretical passage of Bothwell certainly deserves further
study. I will see what I might have in my notes which may relate
to the matter.
As to the chronology and the suggested pedigree, there is
another good possibility, incl. approximate dates, which would in fact
agree with Andrew MacEwen's theory:
Joanna de Menteith = 3) say 1334/1339, Sir Maurice Murray
Joanna Murray, b. say 1334/1340, d. 1362;
= say 1348/1357, Sir Thomas Murray
Joanna Murray, b. say 1349/1358,
= ca. 1372 * Archibald Douglas
Remember that the 1362 date was for the dispensation for Archibald
Douglas to marry the mother, the widowed Joanna Murray; as indicated
by Andrew MacEwen, the marriage (to the younger Joanna) did not then
occur, but was a later event, ca. 1372.
Again, the 1339 date (and to what extent the event of that year
bears on possible birth dates for children of Joanna Murray) is a
critical item. Any relevant details as to that date, the event, and
the source for same would be greatly appreciated.
Cheers,
John
Claud...@aol.com
In a message dated 1/1/2006 8:33:08 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
the...@aol.com writes:
There is a bit of variance here between the above account and
that provided in the VCH account for Oakington, co. Cambs. The
descent of this English manor mirrors in some early respects your
account for Bothwell, but diverges a bit, esp. in that this Murray
line ends with one William de Murray, who d.s.p. in/about 1300. A
closer inspection appears to be merited.
Dear John,
I believe VCH has mixed up two different lines of the Olifard family. The
property at Smailholm which is in Roxburghshire belonged to David Olifard,
godson of David I king of Scotland, who died bef. 1170. It was this David
Olifard who was made Justiciar of the Lothians, which became hereditary in his
descendants, and he was also given the barony of Bothwell. David Olifard had a
son Walter Olifard who married Christina theorized to be the daughter of
Ferteth, earl of Strathern. They had a son Walter Olifard who died in 1242. This
Walter Olifard also held Smailholm and Bothwell. His son David Olifard
married Joanna as is shown by a charter from the Glasgow Register which states
"Omnibus sancte matris ecclesie filiis presentibus et futuris David Olyfard et
Johanna uxor eius salutem eternam in domino". This is the same David Olifard
who gave a carrucate of land in Smailholm [along with pasture and 300 eggs] to
Dryburgh Abbey. On Sept. 18, 1278, William Moray at Bothwell gave Dryburgh
abbey freedom from paying duty to grind grain at the mill in Smailholm. So
both Smailholm and Bothwell were held by Walter Moray. This is how the lands
came into the Moray family.
I am aware of your excellent research on the Monfichet family which shows
another David Olifard who married Devorguille who is connected to the Monfichet
line.
Other documentation is most welcome.
Best Wishes,
MichaelAnne
Claud...@aol.com
John Campbell, Earl of Athol and Joanna de Menteith's 2nd husband,
was slain at Halidon Hill on 19 July 1333. It appears unlikely that
Joanna actually remained unattached from July 1333 until 1339: if the
1339 date represents either (A) a marriage, or (B) a dispensation to
marry, we cannot rely on even that to define when Sir Maurice Murray
and Joanna de Menteith could have, or would have, produced a child.
Dear John,
Joanna Menteith married Sir Maurice de Moravia of Drumsagard, for which
marriage the bishop of Dunblane received authority to grant a dispensation from
Pope Benedict XII dated 5 Ides of July 1339.
As you can see from the above statement the date of July 11, 1339 is the
date of the dispensation granted for the marriage of Maurice Moray and Johanna
Menteith. The fact of a child being born to Johanna Moray and her first husband
Thomas Moray is very unlikely as there is still the question of the fact
that a very young girl would have been married to a man at least 25 to 30 years
her senior. This did occur but a more logical answer still seems the fact
that Joanna Moray was not only the widow but also the closest living relative of
her husband Thomas Moray. This is an interesting case where the widow would
have stood to inherit the entirety of her husband's property upon his death
not the usual dower. The fact she was his heir can be shown by an analysis of
the Moray family. Her father was her husband's 2nd cousin. When Thomas
Moray's brother John Moray died in 1351,Johanna, who was the only heir of her
father, became her husband's heir.
Best wishes,
MichaelAnne