>Dear Bob, >Re. Ricardus filius Torke: Torke looks, to me, to be an Anglish [sic], >(or, >possibly, Danish), name, derived from Tor (Thor), which at such a time and >place, (i.e. eleventh-to-thirteenth-century Yorkshire) was not uncommon. >Re. William le Turk: With the introduction of Norman-type surnames, which >you mentioned, the insertion of a 'de', or, less frequently, a 'le', became >common practice, in an effort to climb into the dominant paradigm socially; >much the same as American immigrants of a later period would (ironically) >shorten their names. However, the forenames William and Robert, (which you >cite), being French, would seem to indicate that such was not the case for >these more Southern 'forebarers' of your surname. >Ford
possibilty perhaps Turcott could be elongated version of Turc, I will need to do further study in this area to be certain.
>----- Original Message ----- >From: "Bob Turcott" <bobturc...@msn.com> >To: <GEN-MEDIEVA...@rootsweb.com> >Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 10:57 AM >Subject: crusaders
>To all, I have been researching my surname Turcott, for quite some time. I >have read a few heraldic >books that indicate the Turcott surname was applied to a crusader, as far >as >I know, there are quite a few origins and variations of the Turk, Turc & >Leturc surname. I have known one researcher Tony Turk that has researched >some variants of the turk surname and this is his website, but I think my >origin may be different from the lines he is researching. >http://www.turkgenealogy.com/
>However, is there someone out there that knows about crusaders and some >surnames assocaited with them, below is one paper about one possible >origin. >I read one book authored by johnathan riley smith about crusaders but >really >could not find any such referance to the turcott surname, but found some >referance to turks, but I still dont think that a Turcott originating out >of >france would >be of such turkish root.
>The Turcott Surname in France >Turcott of french surnames, it has been said that they came into existance >around the year 1000 and were mostly confined to the nobility. The >employment of surnames in England in the eleventh century was one of the >results of the Norman (French) conquest of 1066 which was carried out under >William the Conquerer.
>The french name Turcott and it's variants Turco, Turc, Turq, and LeTurc is >of nickname origin, that is, descriptive of some personal or physical >characteristic of the initial bearer of this surname. In this instance, the >name is a nickname derived from the medieval French "turc" which in turn >comes from the middle latin "turcus" meaning "a turk". Turk was a term used >to describe a Mohamadan or all infidels, that is non-Christians. Thus the >surname Turcott was a medieval nickname applied to a crusader.
>The crusades (from Latin "crux" meaning "Cross") were a series of religious >wars waged by the cristian nations of Europe during the eleventh, twelfth >and thirteenth centuries for the recovery of the holy land from the >Moslems.
>This surname can also be found in England, probably introduced there during >the third crusade (1187-1192). In fact, the earliest written record of this >surname is English from 1188 when one Ricardus Filius (son of) Torke is >recorded in the "pipe rolls" of Yorkshire England.
>In 1193 one William Le (the) Turk is listed in the "pipe rolls" of >Gloucestershire and Robert Turk is mentioned in the "subsidy rolls" of >Sussex in 1296.
>Coat of Arms/Blazon of ARMS: >Gules, on a chief argent the head of the turk sable, with a head band >argent. >Translation: The head of the turk acts as a pun on the origin of this >surname. Gules or red, symbolizes the planet mars and denotes Military >Fortitude, Valour, joy and Honor.Argent or White, symbolizes the moon and >denotes Purity and Obedience. >Crest: The head of the turk. >Origin: France >Source: The Historical Research Center, Inc. issued to me on 23rd Feb 1993 >Registration no#10439
> > The french name Turcott and it's variants Turco, Turc, Turq, and LeTurc >is > > of nickname origin, that is, descriptive of some personal or physical > > characteristic of the initial bearer of this surname. In this instance, >the > > name is a nickname derived from the medieval French "turc" which in turn > > comes from the middle latin "turcus" meaning "a turk". Turk was a term >used > > to describe a Mohamadan or all infidels, that is non-Christians. Thus >the > > surname Turcott was a medieval nickname applied to a crusader.
> > This surname can also be found in England, probably introduced there >during > > the third crusade (1187-1192). In fact, the earliest written record of >this > > surname is English from 1188 when one Ricardus Filius (son of) Torke is > > recorded in the "pipe rolls" of Yorkshire England.
> > In 1193 one William Le (the) Turk is listed in the "pipe rolls" of > > Gloucestershire and Robert Turk is mentioned in the "subsidy rolls" of > > Sussex in 1296.
>I would be hesitant to accept this derivation of your surname. >'Turcott' as such does not appear in P. H. Reaney's authoritative >_Dictionary of English Surnames_, but the second element of the name >suggests that it is not a nickname, originally, but a place-name, in >English, with '-cot' or '-cote' being a cottage or dwelling (as in the >surname 'Prescott', etc.). The vowel in the first element may have >shifted, and it is possible that it derives from some element 'ter-', >'tur-', or 'tor-', that may have nothing to do with the documented >epithet 'Turk'. Reaney notes that 'Turk' itself is of disputed origins: >he reports that NED just assigns the word continental (i.e. French) >origins, coming into England as a nickname around the time of the third >crusade, but Reaney says that it is found in London a half century >earlier. And there are some documented instances of it as a well before >the crusades: e.g. the 'Turch' in Cambridgeshire Domesday Book (1080s), >which Reaney reports another author explaining as a hypochoristic pet >form of the Scandinavian Germanic name 'Thorkel'. Reaney does admit >that most of the documented surnames (burgeoning in the 13th c.) of the >form 'le Turk' or 'fitz Turk', etc., were probably derived from the >continental import. But at any rate, I would doubt that the later >surname 'Turcott' necessarily has any relation to earlier instances of >'Turk', whether the latter derives from a continental or Germanic name.
I am very hesitant for sure!!! perhaps it could come from Turc but not Turk. possibly derived from Turc surname of france, but not Turk, The source of the certificate is perhaps not a very good one and to many discrepancies in the cert as identified by others in this forum. However, I will find the heraldic book and post it here and see if everyone thinks the book may be in error as well.
John Brandon wrote: > I mean, does the fact that my XY line ends up at the (presumably) > Germanically-descended wife of Johannes Hoffman of Lebanon Co., PA, > make my genetic makeup more Germanic than would normally be the case > for a person with a single great-grandparent of completely Germanic > descent (and with no other German lines)? Slightly more Germanic? > Much more Germanic? Makes no difference?
> John Brandon wrote:
>>>This is the line from which you get (statistically) more of your X >>>chromosome(s) than any other.
>>What does the X chromosome indicate, biologically speaking? (I was >>never very good at science ...)
Biologically speaking, there is no direct correlation between individual chromosomes and functions or purposes - even with the Y chromosome, you can have one and be female by all objective criteria (except, of course, chromosome typing), if you just have a mutation in one single gene (e.g. TDFY - testes determining factor Y), female being the default pathway.
The X, like the autosomal chromosomes, contains an essentially random collection of genes (about 1000) for various proteins (e.g. the 'color receptors' for light and one of the blood-clotting factors come immediately to mind). There is one critical criterion however - (almost) all of the genes on the X chromosome must be able to function alone. For autosomal chromosomes, you have two copies of each gene, and some of them _must_ have two copies to allow appropriate ballance. Because men only have one X, anything on the X must be able to regulate itself as a single copy. Further, because they work as a single copy in males, having two copies in females would confuse things, so female cells inactivate (randomly) one or the other of their X chromosomes, such that only one X is functional in each cell, like in males. (The patchy coloration in cats is the most frequently cited example of this. Brown patches might represent where one X has been inactivated, black the other.)
As to whether this makes you more Germanic, "Germanic" is as much a social-cultural construct as a biological one anyhow. If you want to point to individual traits - blond hair, blue eyes, (a tendancy to overrun neighboring countries), these would link to individual genes, each on their own chromosome, and each segregating independently. In terms of numbers, you would have twice as much chromosome X from your XY ancestor than the proportion of, say, chromosome 2 that came from any ancestor of that generation, but in a cumulative sense, given 22 autosomal chromosomes vs. one X, the difference in total gene contribution is of little significance. Biologically speaking, this XY-line phenomenon is really more a curiousity than something of true biological significance.
In article <43d92...@news.ColoState.EDU>, "Todd A. Farmerie" <farme...@interfold.com> wrote:
> Biologically speaking, there is no direct correlation between individual > chromosomes and functions or purposes ...
Ah. So I did not inherit my male pattern baldness--or [privily touches his desk] relative freedom from it--from John Stratton of Shotley? I remember hearing an old wives' tale that a man's hairline destiny is got from his mother's father.
Nathaniel Taylor wrote: > In article <43d92...@news.ColoState.EDU>, > "Todd A. Farmerie" <farme...@interfold.com> wrote:
>>Biologically speaking, there is no direct correlation between individual >>chromosomes and functions or purposes ...
Just to be clear, there are correlations between individual genes and specific functions, and these genes are each on specific chromosomes. What I meant is that there is not a specific chromosome that does, say digestion, or liver function, or blood clotting, or personality - complex traits, the multiple determining genes for which are randomly distributed among the autosomal chromosomes and the X.
> Ah. So I did not inherit my male pattern baldness--or [privily touches > his desk] relative freedom from it--from John Stratton of Shotley? I > remember hearing an old wives' tale that a man's hairline destiny is got > from his mother's father.
Were this true, all male siblings (and even maternal first cousins) would be equally disenfranchised in the follicle department, which is not the case.
Interesting about the XY thing, even if it is just a curio. Also fascinating to see how people here have such geographically diverse origins (relatively speaking), for the respective lines- a good cross-section of American immigration from Europe, at least. My own mt, XY and Y currently stem from Scotland, Jersey and Ireland respectively (late, early and mid- 18th C in that order)- although the majority of my ancestry is English.
I am quite interested in this thread and hope to figure out how you guys do what you do. Anyhoo, if I understand it properly, we are dealing with our maternal line, and maternal then paternal lines?
It is possible that the King book in an earlier post, is the one I use by Helen Hester King and Linetta Ainsworth Daniels about the Gorham Descendants of Plymouth Colony in New York State and the Western Reserve. I was given my copy by my father's mother, Oa Louise (Lawcock) Friegel Gorham in 1955, signed by Ms. King, 12-23-1955.
mt: Sara Ann McMillers = Spencer Cone Youmans Georgia Ann Youmans = Horace James Hodgson Helen Maude Hodgson = Clay David Eskridge Norma Dean Eskridge = Creighton Johnston Gorham Virginia Gayle Gorham
xy: George Washington Eskridge = Sabrina Kendel Louis Eskridge = Susannah David Clay Eskridge = Carolyn Hall Cashus Clay Eskridge = Nancy Ellen Dean Clay David Eskridge = Helen Maude Hodgson Norma Dean Eskridge = Creighton Johnston Gorham Virginia Gayle Gorham
DAR Line: George Squire, Sr. (1618-1691) = Ann Squire (d. 1691) George Squire, Jr. = Ellen Wheeler Jonathan Squire = Mary Siely Nathaniel Squire = Sarah Higgins Johnathan Squire, Sr. = Elizabeth Morehouse Johnathan Squire, Jr. = Catherine Holmes Abigail Squire = Joseph Baily Youmans Sara Ann McMillers = Spencer Cone Youmans Georgia Ann Youmans = Horace James Hodgson Helen Maud Hodgson = Clay David Eskridge Norma Dean Eskridge = Creighton Johnston Gorham Virginia Gayle Gorham
y: Vicomte Haimon I of Poelet = Roianteline Vicecomte Rivallon I of Combour = Aremburgis of Puiset Lord of Tanniere Geoffrey FitzRivallon St. Ralph Futaye aka Ralph Gorron (1100) = Hersendis of Mayenne, sister of Juhel Geoffrey de Gorham (abbot 1119-1146) = Cristina [found a Gorram married to a Cristina in the Thorney Abbey Annals ca. 1100]
Geoffrey de Gorham, Lord of the manor of Westwick [Gorhambury], occ. 1182 Sir Henry de Gorham  d. 1212 held lands in Cransley and Flore Northamptonshire; Wingrave and Rolvesham, Buckinghamshire in 1202 and 1208 Sir William de Gorham same lands  d. 1233 = Cecilia de Sanford, d. 1251 Sir William same lands in 1233, d. 1278 Sir Hugh de Gorham same lands in 1324 (d. 1325) knight templar and coat of arms of Hertfordshire Gorhams in Cooks Visitations of Lincolnshire in 1562 = Margery Angevin Sir William de Gorham  = ?
John Gorham (about 1492 - 1588) of Glapthorne = Eliza James Gorham = Agnes Bernington m. 1572 Ralph Gorham (1575-1639) = Margaret Stephenson (m. 1610 Oundle) Captain John Gorham bp. Benefield 1621 = Desire Howland (m. 1643) Shubael Gorham = Puella Hussey Captain George Gorham = Hannah Banks Captain George Gorham = Sarah Stephens Frederick Gorham = Lois White Joseph Gorham = Emily Edith King Chester Raymond Gorham = Jane White Arwin Everett Gorham = Sara Margaret Johnston [Balmer(?)] Chester Arwin Gorham = Oa Louise [Lawcock - mother's maiden] Friegel Creighton Johnston Gorham = Norma Dean Eskridge Virginia Gayle Gorham
 Grant to [Robert de Gorham?] the Abbot of St. Alban's, and to the Monks of Tinmouth, by Edgar son of Earl Gospatric, of the Church of Edlingham in Northumberland. Witnessed, on the part of the Abbot, by Geoffrey de Gorham, Phylip de Cymai, Milo son of Hubert, Nicholas Dispensator, Robert Janito, Alexander Bachelor, Henry son of Geoffrey de Gorham, and Geoffrey his brother, Hugh Pincerna, Roger de Arundel, Ralph son of Ralph de Gorham, Ralph eam [sic], Reginald brother of Uttingus, Roger Corneille, Theoderic Purchay. Cir. 1160. [Original in the Treasury at Durham, 3, 2. Cart. Special. A. 2, with the seal of Edgar.]
 1229 held Westwick 2/3 fee; Laurence de Brok 1/3 same fee in Sheephall [I believe he or his son was married to Damietta or Dametta Gorham], formerly held by John de Rungeton. Was absent in Ireland paying military svs with Juhel; mil. svs for Westwick, 1244, 1245, 1257, witness to charters 1270, 1271, 1274.
 In addition to inheriting family estate, Sir Hugh was granted a quarter of a knight's fee in lands in Churchfield, Oundle and Warmington, Northamptonshire. In the inquisition taken at Thropston is the following: "Hugh of Gorham holds of the abbot of Burgh in Churchfield, Oundle, and Warmington a quafter of a knight's fee and the abbot is mesne towards the King ..." (Northampton Records Society, Henry of Pytchley's Bood of Fees, Vol2, p. 120). "He also held estates in Whaplode, Lindolnshire, in right of his wife, Margery, sole daughter and heiress of Sir William Angevin". (Burke's Visitation of the Seats and Arms, Vol. 2, p. 20, 1852). He was a templar to Richard II, and in 1324 was called to Parliament. In the account books of John Fider REeve of the abbot of Crawland for his Manor of Wellingborough is found: "For the fodder of three horses of Lord Hugh de Gorham ... 3. bus. of oats". He died in 1325, at 75 years of age, leavning three sons by his wife, Margery --- William, Thomas and Nicholas.
 Inherited Gorham Manor in Churchfield, near Oundle, Norhtamptonshire, and sold it to the Bishop of Salisbury in 1332. "In or about 1339, the Gorhams sold their possessions at Flore and at Cransley".
Re the discussion about blood, etc. it may be interesting that my father (Gorham) was Rh- and my mother (Eskridge) Rh+ so the doctors were always concerned about some kind of rejection factor with her pregnancies should she have a baby who was Rh-. She did not.
If anyone is interested, I can post the pertinent information about the Gorhams from the Collectanea ... there were three branches of them.
Here is a sampling: One branch stayed in Tanniere, Maine, whose earliest grant of land to Abbey of Marmoutier, in Tours, Church of Brece about 4 miles from Gorram in Maine in 1112 and married Hersendis de Mayenne, daughter of Walter, Lord of Mayenne about 1090. Maurice witnessed a grant of land to Vitalis Abbot of Savigny, dated 29 March, 1114 ... he was alive in 1128. William, son of Ralph and Hersendis, occurs as witness to the same grants ca 1112 and 1120; stated in Mt. St. Michael cartulary to have married Matrida; but William, father of Giles de Gorham is recorded (cartulary of Savigny) to have married Matilda; the two different names led to Coll. Top. V, p. 186 to conjecture that they were different persons but now, they are believed to be the same person, Coll. Top. VIII, pg. 98. Giles de Gorham ... ?? Gilo de Garania who crossed himself in 1162??, Sir Ralph de Gorram, grandson of Giles under seal of Sir Ralph, a Mt. St. Michael charter of which a duplicate without seal at St. Lo has been printed at Coll. Top. V. p. 188. Sir Robert de Gorram who has the seal Sigill' Robini de Gorran and a secretum, third seal of S S Rob de Goran ... Excambium [inter Robinum de Gorram, militem, et Radulphum Abbatum et Conventum Sci Michaelis], pro masura Galterii Fulcherii in parochia de Livare, salva ipsis grangia sua cum placea. [1226-7].
de Gorham of St. Alban's and of Gorhambury.
1. Ralph (oc. 1100 and 1120) = Hersendie 1.1 William = Matilda
2. dotted line Brother William = ? 2.1 Geoffrey = ? 2.1.1. Geoffrey de Gorham Ld of Westwyk oc. 1164 and 1182 2.1.2. Henry de Gorham
2.2 Ralph, Lord of Sarret, oc. 1140, Herts 1160 = ? 2.2.1 Robert de Gorham, a monk of St. Albans, ca. 1161 2.2.2 dotted line to Ralph de Gorham 2.2.3 Geoffrey de Gorham, instituted to Luton ca. 1153 2.3 Robert de Gorham, Abbot of St. Albans 1155-1166
3. dotted line to Geoffrey de Gorham, Abbot of St. Albans, 1119-1146
4. A sister [Oliva per King] = Hugh son of Humbald, Westwyk ca. 1130 dsp
5. Henry de Gorham, godfather of Abbot Robert, oc. ca. 1160
King says that Geoffrey sent for his brother, William, and sister, Olivia to come to join him. He built a great hall at Gorhambury where Humbald had been given the land by Abbot Paul, at Lanfranc's request, and renewed by Abbot Richard d'Albini, prior to Geoffrey's arrival. Geoffrey renewed the land to Hugh, son of Humbald, then married his sister to Hugh, son of Humbald ... the hall was her dowry I guess. Olivia died without children and the property reverted to the sons of William: Ive, Robert and Ralph.
I've cobbled things together from King's book, Keats-Rohan, Gesta Albini, Power and Rev. George Cornelius Gorham in his Collectanea Topigraphica entries.
I know that the first Captain John Gorham, the one who married Desire Howland, daughter of John Howland who came over on the Mayflower, and his father, Ralph, came over on the Philip from a website about the Gorhams ... Loafing Cactus, I think it was ... I don't have the particulars on that. Another website on Cornyn or Cornwall or Corneille says that the name has also been pronounced/spelled Goram so there seems to be a link to Cornwall and we know there is a link to Devon from Doomsday.
Have got a back injury so can't scan things right now, but will be glad to post as I can, further information, if it is helpful to anyone.
Virginia Gorham Wagner
"It is a reverend thing to see an ancient castle not in decay; how much more to behold ancient families which have stood against the waves and weathers of time". --Lord Francis Bacon
"Interesting about the XY thing, even if it is just a curio."
Perhaps one might regard XY as a sort of "genealogical mean" - smack dab in the "middle" of our ancestry, as it is. And, I agree, the comparison of mt, XY, and Y geographically is of much interest. For me (respectively) South Wales, the Netherlands, and Lancashire, England. Quite a tight little geographical perimeter, really - and increasingly rare, as the generations roll, I suspect (emblematic of my antique-ness?!).
> You're lucky - I can only go back five, less than 200 years. That's > still one more than my patrilineal line, though. Thank goodness in > between there has been more than enough to keep me busy.
For the sake of completeness:
Patrilineal: great-great grandfather Charles Reading (1815-1884), illegitimate son of Charlotte Reading, a house-servant of Edmonton, Middlesex
Matrilineal: Sarah Anderson (1825-1910), daughter of Joseph Anderson, tailor of Middlsex; emigrated to New South Wales, 1844; her illegitimate daughter Emma Phelps was my great-great grandmother [please don't think my ancestry is all on the wrong side of the blanket though!]
XY: nine generations back to Elizabeth (died 1733), first wife of Docwra Friend (1687-1738) of Ely, Cambridgeshire. While I don't presently know her maiden name or family, her husband's own XY ancestry is a little more interesting, and properly mediaeval, going back a further six generations to Thomas Hutton, JP (c1494-1552) of Dry Drayton, Cambs - his maternal grandfather is referred to in his father's will, but unfortunately is not named therein.
I wonder how rare it is to be able to get back beyond 1600 with either of these three methods of ascent?
Many thanks, Tony, for this light relief, which I have found most interesting.
Ginny Wagner wrote: > xy: > George Washington Eskridge = Sabrina > Kendel Louis Eskridge = Susannah > David Clay Eskridge = Carolyn Hall > Cashus Clay Eskridge = Nancy Ellen Dean > Clay David Eskridge = Helen Maude Hodgson > Norma Dean Eskridge = Creighton Johnston Gorham > Virginia Gayle Gorham
This one you start off wrong. You, (I would assume) a female, would want to go first to your father, then his mother, her father, etc.
You asked earlier whether it was birth/death/marriage certificates or published books. For my Y line, it is Certs back to the son of the immigrant. He and his siblings are all named in their father's will, and this group of names eventually allowed the group to be identified in Europe, and church birth/death/marriage records then prove it back to the earliest generation.
For my mt, it is a bit sketchier, if only because a good bit of it came down to me intact, and I have not gone back to reconfirm. That being said, I can go back to the mid-1800s with certs, family Bibles, etc., and with censuses a generatin earlier. Then I rely on information in a reunion book said to have been copied from a Bible to add one generation, then a newspaper marriage notice, then a vital record, then a will, then vital records again, then for the next to last generation a deduction (the vital records report the marraige of the daughter, as child of her father, and report the marriage of the father to his wife, and he is not known to have had any other wife), and finally a generation from a published book that I have yet to confirm (I know the husband's name from vital records, just not the given name of his wife).
For my alternating line, certs and Bible records back to 1800, an estate administration, a combination of a will and a deed, and a tombstone. In other words, with a few exceptions, it is all documented in primary sources of one type or another, although in several cases, published books have provided a line that was then confirmed by consulting the appropriate contemporary documentation.
"I wonder how rare it is to be able to get back beyond 1600 with either of these three methods of ascent?"
Hello Michael, Interesting question. For me, lines trcd to the 1600s are acutally typical, probably 85% of mylines seem to go back that far. The year 1600 proves many times and for many people to be a signifucant genealogical divide.
On Thu, 2006-01-26 at 00:02 -0700, Todd A. Farmerie wrote: > Nathaniel Taylor wrote:
> > Is there any biological significance to the 'XY' (gender alternating) > > line, or is this just an exercise?
> This is the line from which you get (statistically) more of your X > chromosome(s) than any other. A woman gets one X from her mother, > representing 50/50 of each maternal grandparent, while she gets the > other from the father, but it comes entirely from the paternal > grandmother (the paternal grandfather providing the father with his Y- a > man gets his sole X exclusively from his mother). Thus, any line with > two successive male generations contributes nothing to the X of their > descendant, while for all other lines, the percent contribution is > divided in half for each female generation, but remains undivided for > each male generation. The line with the most male generations, without > two in a row, is that which alternates, having twice the contribution > per generation as the all-female line.
> Curiously, this line differs for siblings of different genders - mine is > Isabel, wife of James Baird, b. ca. 1730, or Northampton Co. Pa., my > sister's is Joh. Heinrich Kauffer, b. ca. 1730, somewhere in Germany.
My cousin, Gene Devenport, through Y-DNA testing (www.davenportdna.com - Gene is #8305) can trace his Y back to Orme de Davenport around 1100 in Cheshire, based on close matches with English Davenports from various Davenport manors in Cheshire. Rev. John Davenport also comes from that line. Unfortunately, we can't trace the actual names of OUR Y carrier Davenport ancestors beyond Samuel Devenport, who was in the 1790 Census in Orange Co. NC.
The Banks DNA project hasn't helped me so far, as we seem to be a more diverse lot. If anyone knows of any Bankses (especially English ones) who would like to be tested, I know someone who is paying for the tests.
Geeze I have the same problem. It turns out that my honey and I are related about 8 generations back. Everyone was in the Ohio Valley at the same time. I also turn out to be a Brooks/Mayflower descendant-lucky I have a son to prove this. My brother is dead. I'm probably my own cousin if you go back far enough. Hakes is also Hakon which takes me back to my Norse heritage....dang Vikings-they were everywhere too! I'm Scotch, Scotch-Irish English Norwegian & swede. All my dang families turn in on themselves. And what's worse-there is a genetic disease in the family..... Trudy
Y: John Baldwin, of Howden in the parish of Gisburn, Yorkshire, in 1684, later of Wheatley, in Pendle Forest, Lancashire, d. 1729, m. Bridget ____ (parents of the Quaker immigrant John Baldwin of Lancashire and Bucks co., Pennsylvania, d. 1751, m. (2) Ann Scott).
mt: Dorothy Consitt, b. Yorkshire, d. Warren co., Iowa, 1862, m. Henry Cartwright. As I have a plausible candidate for her mother (Rebecca Rhodes, daughter of Dorothy Huntriss, daughter of Mary Goodill), this would be a good place to do some DNA research of my own, if I could only find a matrilineal descendant of Mary Goodill.
XY: John Baird, d. 1797/8, Abbeville co., SC (son of Adam Baird, whose wife's name is unknown). My paternal grandfather's XY line (which is still around in the person of a young great-great-grandson) goes back (through the Quaker immigrant George Maris of Worcestershire and Chester co., Pennsylvania) 14 generations to a William Wych living in the late 1400's.
Thank you for responding to my question and for helping me figure out how to do the xy line. It is interesting ... I hadn't thought about trying to follow the Bender name, for instance although that would take me back into Germany. I wonder if there was something that happened there in the late 19c that would encourage a migration to the U.S.
I found your answer about what you have done for your genealogy very interesting. Do you think it was worth the time and expense to verify it with primary source documents? If you had it to do again, would you?
Mary Ruth Ball 1927-1960 dau of Rosa Genetta Swain 1895-1961 dau of Mary E Kidd 1863-1900 Maliza Stephens 1822-1891 Susan Hayes, 1781 SC-1884, Fentress Co., TN
Edward Perkins, d circa 1684 New Haven, CT. IF he is the half-brother of Rev Capt William Perkins of Topsfield, MA (as stated in a now destroyed 18th century diary quoted in the Connecticut Magazine, vol IX, pp 666-667) then back to John Perkins of Salford Priors, Warwickshire, Eng d by 15 March 1541/42 when his will was proved. Donald Lines Jacobus' mother was from this Perkins family. 
XY: Abigail Pennington, b ~1798 Wilkes Co., NC d before 1855, KY or TN, wife of Abraham Strunk. Abraham and Abigail settled in KY next to Wells Pennington who was also from Wilkes/Ashe Cos, NC.
 Only 1 line of the 3 sons of Edward Perkins, John, Jonathan and David, has been tested in the Perkins Y DNA study. Looking for direct male descendants of Jonathan and David Perkins of New Haven to test. Two lines from two grandsons of John Perkins have been tested and they are 37 marker matches to each other. They are 32 marker matches to the "Somerled" signature of the McDonalds.
Ginny Wagner wrote: > I found your answer about what you have done for your > genealogy very interesting. Do you think it was worth the > time and expense to verify it with primary source documents? > If you had it to do again, would you?
Yes, and Yes. First of all, it didn't cost me that much: if the family didn't move, then all of the birth, marriage and death records are on a single roll of microfilm. Further, much of what I detailed represents novel information - material unknown before I found it. I am not satisfied with simply finding out what is already known - I want what is unknown but there to be found.
That being said, I don't trust _anything_ that has been published without documentation. This is not just a natural skepticism, but the voice of experience. In one medieval line, four successive generations in the published version of the pedigree are given the wrong wife, and one of them in the middle of the direct descent actually had no children, his heir being his first cousin. In some of my Pennsylvania German material, there is error after error after error (e.g. a man born 1773 is made to be a Rev. War soldier; a man said to have died in 1875 got married again in 1879) even coming from seemingly reliable sources. One of my Mayflower lines traced through someone who was killed at the Battle of Brandywine, and his widow remarried - then a few years later the dead guy remarried and moved to Vermont.
Basically, if I can't document it, I can't trust it.
> > <snip> > > > possibilty perhaps Turcott could be elongated version of Turc, I will > > > need to do further > > > study in this area to be certain.
> >Would suggest that Turcott would indicate an ancestor who was a cotter, > >from 'Thor's cottage', or somesuch similar to that.
> Thats funny!!!! Where on this earth would such a cottage be found? Welcome > back Mr cotter!!! > You have a good sense of humor Ford!!!!
Ford is not joking. It is very unlikely, linguistically, that 'Turcott' would be an 'elongated' version of Turc. There is a separate name element in it, '-cott', and Ford has merely stated how experts explain it. As has already been suggested, you may wish to consult Reaney's _Dictionary of English Surnames_, and also his more discursive book on their formation and typology.
> > > <snip> > > > > possibilty perhaps Turcott could be elongated version of Turc, I >will > > > > need to do further > > > > study in this area to be certain.
> > >Would suggest that Turcott would indicate an ancestor who was a cotter, > > >from 'Thor's cottage', or somesuch similar to that.
> > Thats funny!!!! Where on this earth would such a cottage be found? >Welcome > > back Mr cotter!!! > > You have a good sense of humor Ford!!!!
>Ford is not joking. It is very unlikely, linguistically, that 'Turcott' >would be an 'elongated' version of Turc. There is a separate name >element in it, '-cott', and Ford has merely stated how experts explain >it. As has already been suggested, you may wish to consult Reaney's >_Dictionary of English Surnames_, and also his more discursive book on >their formation and typology.
Nat, first and foremost, my name is of French origin maine et loire.. To suggest English origin is a bit pre-mature for me to buy at this time. However, I will take a look at this english dictionary, hovever the consulatation of a French dictionary may also be in order here. You must understand that not all cultures elongate and shorten names in the same manner or sequence..So further study is needed in this area, especially when we don't have all the sources specified here for french origins, a decision clearly cannot be made at this time.