A Merovingian Descent
Hans Lick
"Dagobert I, Sigibert III, Berswinde, Adelbert, Luitfrides I & II,
Hugo II, Ermengarde, Regniers i-IV, Beatrix, Adela de Roucy, Margaret
de Roucy, Adeliza de Clermont, Rohese de Clare (b. 1120), who married
Robert de Maltby (b. circa 1118)."
Dagobert and Sigibert and the Regniers of Hainault okay, but I find no
record of Berswinde in ES.
Am I correct in guessing much of this is fictitious?
Thanks,
jean coeur de lapin
John P. Ravilious
Dear Jean,
The earliest individual I can identify as fitting in this descent
with possible validity the mother of Reginar I, whom
you assign the name Ermengarde. However, the pedigree you show gives
"Hugo II, Ermengarde,...", and Hugo does not fit in my records. The
mother of Reginar is given no name in my source, shown as the wife of
Giselbert, count of the Maasgau: she was a daughter not of Hugh, but
of Lothar I, Holy Roman Emperor (King of Lotharingia 843-850; he d.
855) by his wife Ermengarde of Touraine [Europaische Stammfafeln I
Band I.2, Tafel 236]. This is pretty significant Carolingian
ancestry; nothing Merovingian (proven anyway) to be claimed.
From this point down to Rohese de Clare, this seems solid. As to
Rohese de Clare herself, she m. Baderon de Monmouth (d. bef 1176): '
Badero de Momuta et uxor sua Rohes' were benefactors of Monmouth
priory [Monasticon Anglicanum IV:596-7, Num. III]. Rohese had
numerous issue, including a daughter Rose or Rohese, the wife of Hugh
de Lacy, lord of Meath (he d. 1186; by whom she has innumerable
descendants). The Maltby claim is new to me: unless someone else has
information re: same, I see this as spurious.
Cheers,
John
taf
> On Dec 20, 7:49 pm, Hans Lick <atsarisb...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > A friend named Maltby tells me she traces her ancestry thus:
>
> > "Dagobert I, Sigibert III, Berswinde, Adelbert, Luitfrides I & II,
> > Hugo II, Ermengarde, Regniers i-IV, Beatrix, Adela de
> The earliest individual I can identify as fitting in this descent
> with possible validity the mother of Reginar I, whom
> you assign the name Ermengarde. However, the pedigree you show gives
> "Hugo II, Ermengarde,...", and Hugo does not fit in my records. The
> mother of Reginar is given no name in my source, shown as the wife of
> Giselbert, count of the Maasgau: she was a daughter not of Hugh, but
> of Lothar I, Holy Roman Emperor (King of Lotharingia 843-850; he d.
> 855) by his wife Ermengarde of Touraine [Europaische Stammfafeln I
> Band I.2, Tafel 236]. This is pretty significant Carolingian
> ancestry; nothing Merovingian (proven anyway) to be claimed.
A Google search turns up this supposed line, but shows it to be
missing a generation. As found elsewhere, there are two successive
Ermengardes, Lothar's wife and daughter, so as originally represented,
it was accurate a generation further. It then links into the dubious
Ethiconid lineage. As the latter was also targeted by Hapsburg
genealogists as a worthy origin for that family, I suspect that the
marriage was invented to give the Hapsburgs a Merovingian descent.
taf
Doug McDonald
> On Dec 20, 6:23 pm, "John P. Ravilious" <ther...@aol.com> wrote:
>> On Dec 20, 7:49 pm, Hans Lick <atsarisb...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> A friend named Maltby tells me she traces her ancestry thus:
>>> "Dagobert I, Sigibert III, Berswinde, Adelbert, Luitfrides I & II,
>>> Hugo II, Ermengarde, Regniers i-IV, Beatrix, Adela de
>
>
> missing a generation. As found elsewhere, there are two successive
> Ermengardes, Lothar's wife and daughter, so as originally represented,
> it was accurate a generation further. It then links into the dubious
> Ethiconid lineage.
The Henry Project gives Lothar I's wife as daughter of Hugues, count of Tours.
However, it stops there. Also, the reputable **speculations** I have have no
such daughter of Sigibert III.
Doug McDonald
Hans Lick
Many thanks, John, taf and Doug!
That's about what I expected, but with more detail on the source of
the errors.
I have heard of the "Etichonen" but have never seen the tree as
hypothesized or as proved. Has anyone got that lineage, and a reliable
statement on how much of it can be verified?
(It looks as if the Maltbys can in fact claim their way back to
Charlemagne, and Settipani would say that makes her Meroving as well,
but this is debatable, eh?)
Jean Coeur de Lapin
fordmo...@cox.net
---- Hans Lick <atsar...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Dec 21, 3:22 pm, Doug McDonald
> <mcdon...@scs.uiuc.edu.remove.invalid> wrote:
> > taf wrote:
> > > On Dec 20, 6:23 pm, "John P. Ravilious" <ther...@aol.com> wrote:
> > >> On Dec 20, 7:49 pm, Hans Lick <atsarisb...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > >>> A friend named Maltby tells me she traces her ancestry thus:
> > >>> "Dagobert I, Sigibert III, Berswinde, Adelbert, Luitfrides I & II,
> > >>> Hugo II, Ermengarde, Regniers i-IV, Beatrix, Adela de
> >
> > > A Google search turns up this supposed line, but shows it to be
> > > missing a generation. As found elsewhere, there are two successive
> > > Ermengardes, Lothar's wife and daughter, so as originally represented,
> > > it was accurate a generation further. It then links into the dubious
> > > Ethiconid lineage.
> >
> > The Henry Project gives Lothar I's wife as daughter of Hugues, count of Tours.
> >
> > However, it stops there. Also, the reputable **speculations** I have have no
> > such daughter of Sigibert III.
> >
> > Doug McDonald
>
> Many thanks, John, taf and Doug!
>
> That's about what I expected, but with more detail on the source of
> the errors.
>
> I have heard of the "Etichonen" but have never seen the tree as
> hypothesized or as proved. Has anyone got that lineage, and a reliable
> statement on how much of it can be verified?
Verified? Not sure. I have seen a piece on the Ethiconids, making 'Ethico' an early form of 'Ezzo'. It DOES lead to the Habsburgs, as well as both early & Later Welfs; but is more dotted lines than solid.
Hans Lick
Thanks.
But does it go BACK to the Merovings at any point (aside from the
putative ancestry of Charlemagne's mother's grandmother)?
Jean Coeur de Lapin