Re: Did Florence of Worcester name Bernard de Neufmarche as son in law of Osb...
WJho...@aol.com
msa...@ntlworld.com writes:
> I have come across numerous references to an apparent citation of the
> chronicler Florence of Worcester naming Bernard de Neufmarche as son
> in law to Osbern fitz Richard, sometime in the late 11th century.
> However I have trawled through different versions of the chronicles
> and been unable to find it (i.e. "Florentii Wigorniensis Monachi
> Chronicon ex chronicos", Thorpe, 1848; "The Chronicle of Florence of
> Worcester", Forester, 1854 & "The Church Historians of England Vol II
> part 1", Stevenson, 1853).
>
> Am I being particularly stupid (very possible), or is this a case of
> an oft repeated source that doesn't actually exist?
>
> Can anyone put me out of my misery please.>>
The person you're listening to is not very precise. Florence names
Bernard, but Florence is not the source for the name of his wife, nor for the claim
that her father was Osbern. See
http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/ENGLISHNOBILITYMEDIEVAL3.htm#_Toc243639875
In fact on every question from now on, check Cawley first :) Leo second.
Cawley cites the primary sources where they exist, although he doesn't cite
them all, he does answer your particular question above.
Will Johnson
msallen
> In a message dated 1/3/2010 12:51:34 AM Pacific Standard Time,
>
> > I have come across numerous references to an apparent citation of the
> > chronicler Florence of Worcester naming Bernard de Neufmarche as son
> > in law to Osbern fitz Richard, sometime in the late 11th century.
> > However I have trawled through different versions of the chronicles
> > and been unable to find it (i.e. "Florentii Wigorniensis Monachi
> > Chronicon ex chronicos", Thorpe, 1848; "The Chronicle of Florence of
> > Worcester", Forester, 1854 & "The Church Historians of England Vol II
> > part 1", Stevenson, 1853).
>
> > Am I being particularly stupid (very possible), or is this a case of
> > an oft repeated source that doesn't actually exist?
>
> > Can anyone put me out of my misery please.>>
>
> The person you're listening to is not very precise. Florence names
> Bernard, but Florence is not the source for the name of his wife, nor for the claim
> that her father was Osbern. See
>
>
> In fact on every question from now on, check Cawley first :) Leo second.
> Cawley cites the primary sources where they exist, although he doesn't cite
> them all, he does answer your particular question above.
>
> Will Johnson
Thanks for the interest Will.
I'd already looked at Cawley, but unfortunately he doesn't provide a
source for Nesta's parentage, which I'm trying to use to help prove
her parents' marriage as below....
I am trying to follow Lloyd in "History of Wales from the earliest
times to the Edwardian conquest", in which he states:
"As to his marriage, there is, in addition to the fact that Fl. Wig.
calls him son-in-law of Osbern fitz Richard, the evidence of the
charters of Brecon Priory, which show that his wife Agnes gave to the
priory the manor of Berrington, near Tenbury, held by Osbern in 1086
(Domesd. i. 1766). See Arch. Camb. III. xiv. (1883), 141-2; Mon. Angl.
iii. 244, 264. Gir. Camb. vi. 28-9 (Itin. i. 2) further shows that
Agnes was also called Nest and that she was the daughter of another
Nest, a daughter of Gruffydd ap Llywelyn, whose marriage to Osbern is
thus established."
All of his sources follow through, with the exception of Florence, and
without this link I can't show Osbern's wife Nesta, to be one and the
same as Nesta the daughter of Gruffydd ap Llywelyn.
Looking back through the archives, you seem to have followed the same
line of reasoning yourself, when on 15 Aug 2007 you said (or may have
been quoting, I'm not sure) :
"Osbert fitzRichard of Richard's Castle certainly had a wife named
Nest. Evidence for this is in charters 148 and 165 of the Worcester
Cartulary (Pipe Roll Soc) where Osbert's son Hugo refers to his mother
as Nest. The claim that Osbert's wife was the daughter of Gruffydd is
based on a statement by Florence of Worcester that Bernard de
Neufmarche was the son-in-law of Osbert and a statement by Gerald
Cambriensis that Neufmarche married a granddaughter (also called Nest)
of Gruffydd. The claim that Gruffydd married Aldgyth, the daughter of
Aelfgar, son of Leofric and that she later married King Harold is
reported (I think) only by Orderic Vitalis."
Again that only works if the statement attributed to Florence can be
found.
Later in the same thread (22 Aug 2007) Clive West mentioned the proof
laid out by Lloyd, that I've quoted above, when he said (as part of a
larger point showing descent from Alfgar):
"3. That Osbert fitz Richard had a wife called Nest is proved by two
of his son's charters (148 & 165) where he refers to "patris mei
Osberti et matris mee Nest" (Worcester Cartulary)
4. J.E. Lloyd in his "History of Wales" discovered that this Nest was
the daughter of Gruffydd by comparing two sources: i) Florence of
Worcester, (d. 1118) reported that Bernard of Neufmarche was the son
in law of Osbert fitz Richard, while ii) the 12th century chronicler
Giraldus Cambrensis reported that Neufmarche married Nest, the
daughter of another Nest, who was the daughter of Gruffydd ap
Llewellyn. (Itinerarium Cambriae. Chapter II). "
Its apparent that this is "the standard proof" of this lineage, but
I'm just being picky in wanting to confirm all the constituent parts
for myself !