Re: Descent from Kings of Wessex

[wjho...@aol.com]

In a message dated 12/20/2009 12:52:32 PM Pacific Standard Time,
mohearn_b...@yahoo.com writes:

Ragnall King of the Isles (died 1004/1005) probably father of Cacht, son
of Godfred King of the Isles (died 989), son of Harald King of Limerick
(died 940) who was brother of Olaf Cuaran (died 981). In any case, Harald
would still have been too young being King of Limerick to have been born of
Edith of Wessex who married Sitric in 925 AD.>>

What source are you using to proclaim that some Harald King of Limerick was
a brother to Olaf Cuaran (d 981) ? When Sihtric died he left three sons :
Reginald, Godfrey and Olaf. No Harald.

Will Johnson

[Michael o Hearn]

"The Kings of the Isle of Man", article by Stewart Baldwin, has a chart depicting Harald King of Limerick as possibly a son of Sitric and brother of Olaf Cuaran.  However a note states that "Ivar also had a son named Sitric (d. 896), so if the "mac .h."
is a mistake for just ".h." (a common abbreviation for the word "ua" ["grandson']
and its various declensions), then Harald may have been son of this earlier
Sitric.
"

Cacht's father Ragnall could have been descended from of Harald of Limerick rather than a from Olaf Cuaran, but either way, Edith of Wessex would not have given birth to Ragnall's forebear based upon the historical chronology.

Michael O'Hearn

--- On Mon, 1/4/10, wjho...@aol.com <wjho...@aol.com> wrote:

[Michael o Hearn]

Adam of Bremen gives us another line of descent for Sitric from Godfrey Hardacanutsson of Northumbria whose three sons were ruling in England in the early tenth century, namely Ragnall, Sitric and Olaf, but Olaf was actually a grandson of Godfrey Hardacanutsson by his other son also named Godfrey.  Ragnall's mother is said to have been English by Geffrei Gaimar, using a now-lost northern English chronicle.

Michael O'Hearn

[taf]

On Jan 7, 7:27 am, Michael o Hearn <mohearn_brights...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

> Adam of Bremen gives us another line of descent for Sitric from Godfrey Hardacanutsson of Northumbria whose three sons were ruling in England in the early tenth century, namely Ragnall, Sitric and Olaf, but Olaf was actually a grandson of Godfrey Hardacanutsson by his other son also named Godfrey.  Ragnall's mother is said to have been English by Geffrei Gaimar, using a now-lost northern English chronicle.
>
> Michael O'Hearn

I don't find this statement in Geoffrey Gaimar. Do you have a line-
number? As to the others, it would be unusual for a viking Godfrey to
have a son of the same name. Anyhow, I am not sure I can figure out
to whom you refer here. Are these the Guthfrithsons who reigned in
York? If so, I don't think Adam of Bremen names their father as
Hardacanutsson. Other sources call him simply grandson of Imhuar.

taf

[Michael o Hearn]

>From my notes, Godfrey Hardacanutsson (d. 896), King of Northumbria circa (883-896), from Gesta Anglorum.  Adam of Bremen-11thC.

Looks like the same person as Guthfrith whose sons reigned in York.

[taf]

On Jan 7, 3:37 pm, Michael o Hearn <mohearn_brights...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

> >From my notes, Godfrey Hardacanutsson (d. 896), King of Northumbria circa (883-896), from Gesta Anglorum.  Adam of Bremen-11thC.
>
> Looks like the same person as Guthfrith whose sons reigned in York.
>

No. There were two Guthfriths. The first reigned in the late 9th
century. I suspect that this is the one named by Adam, but I don't
think that Adam calls him Harthacnutson. Symeon of Durham is, I think,
the primary source for him being son of Harthacnut - a vision of St
Cuthbert told abbot Eadred of Carlisle to go find a slave named
Guthfrith, son of Harthacnut and make him king. (The Gesta Anglorum is
lost, so who can say what form it uses for him.)

The second was Guthfrith ua Imair (i.e. O'Ivar, grandson of Ivar) who
succeeded his brothers or cousins Ragnall ua Imair and Sihtric Coach
in the 920s. He was the father of the Guthfrithsons who ruled in
Dublin and York in the 930s and 940s.

taf

[Michael o Hearn]

The actual reference from Adam of Bremen is in Book I, xxxix (41).

Benjamin T. Hudson, in "Viking Pirates and Christian Princes", Oxford (2005), has asserted that Godfrey Hardacnutsson King of Northumbria (+896), his sons Ragnall and Sitric, and Godfrey's grandson Olaf together make up most of the Ui Ímair.  If we take the account in the Vita Rimberti as fact, Godfrey Hardacnutsson was a slave boy in the Danish Army in Britain redeemed by Bishop Eadred of Lindisfarne based upon a tip from St, Cuthbert received in a dream.  In this account Godfrey Hardacnutsson was a slave in the Danish Army, and Eadred paid the redemption price to a widow.  Godfrey was later to become king.

Iver (+873), the supposed ancestor of the Ui Imair, is said to have been the leader of the Great Heathen Army, the same as Ivar the Boneless.  This would appear to be his connection to Godfrey Hardacnutsson a member of that Army.

Gothfrith Ua Ímair died in 934.  Amlaíb or Olaf (+941), and Blácaire were his two sons.  The supposition appears to be that this Gothfrith Ua Ímair was actually a son or grandson of Godfrey Hardacnutsson of Northumbria.

Michael O'Hearn

[taf]

On Jan 10, 2:57 pm, Michael o Hearn <mohearn_brights...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

> Benjamin T. Hudson, in "Viking Pirates and Christian Princes", Oxford (2005), has asserted that Godfrey Hardacnutsson King of Northumbria (+896), his sons Ragnall and Sitric, and Godfrey's grandson Olaf together make up most of the Ui Ímair.

Ah. I will have to dig this out and see what his basis is for this
conclusion. Hudson is definitely the type who prefers to view British
history in terms of long-term continuity - of connecting the dots,
rather than accepting them as isolated dots. At any rate, this is
Hudson's unique take on things, not scholarly consensus.

taf

[Michael o Hearn]

Hudson also mentions the rivalry or feuding between the Olafssons and Haraldssons for the Isle of Man in the introduction and first chapter of the book which I have perused.  Harrald king of Limerick is apparently the ancestor of Cacht who married Donnchad mac Brian.  Cacht's brother Echmarcach, apparently the same as Iehmarc, was one of the Kings of the Isle of Man.  He died in Rome in 1065, one year after the death of his brother-in-law Donnchad who had retired to a monastery in Rome apparently as penance for his sin of fratricide. 

Echmarcach's name apparently derives from the Gaelic word for horse, Latin equus, also occurring in the name of a brother of Brian Boru from which my surname originates.

Michael O'Hearn

--- On Sun, 1/10/10, taf <t...@clearwire.net> wrote:

From: taf <t...@clearwire.net>
Subject: Re: Descent from Kings of Wessex