Irish immigrant to Canada
Bill
My gg was said to be an irish immigrant.
After long and hard researches I've found that his family were listed in
a 1870 USA sensus as canadians.
I assume the family came from Ireland during the great starvation and
settled down in Canada for a while then moved to USA.
I've searched for the family in what can be found of the immigrants
lists in the 1818 to 1866 ships arrivals in Quebec without success.
Is there a facility to find those who left Ireland in that period ?
The family names are:
Archibald Bean (head) born around 1818
Helen Gordon? (wife) born around 1818
Frances (dau) born around 1848
Amelia (dau) born around 1853
Julia (dau) born around 1857
Salina (dau) born around 1859
Joseph (son) born around 1863
Maybe only part of the family were born overseas but I can't find any
trace of their births here in Canada.
Thanks
katy
Have you done a search through the LDS site? I believe they have Candian
census material...
http://www.familysearch.org/
Bill
> Bill wrote:
>> Hi
>>
>> I've searched for the family in what can be found of the immigrants
>> lists in the 1818 to 1866 ships arrivals in Quebec without success.
>>
>> Is there a facility to find those who left Ireland in that period ?
>>
>
> census material...
The only informations familysearch has came from me to someone who took
these (very general informations) and submitted them as they say. That
person didn't even ask for any detail and wrote eroneous mariage and
births dates.
I have a USA sensus transcript who list the family as canadian family.
I can't find any entry in canadian sensuses to any of their names.
My gg never spoke about his family except for two of his sisters, Salina
and Julia. He was raised in USA and after having lost two wives and two
children there, he came to Canada where he raised another family again.
He never spoke much of his past life as it was painfull and he didn't
speak french much. His last wife was speaking french. But some of his
children and grands who spoke english told that he spoke a funny english
and was always signing songs they never heard of. Kind of fiddle songs.
Irish traditional music has that kind of construction.
So the name beeing Bean leads to Scotland or Ireland, possibly in the
northern regions where Gaelic was still much spoken or some mix of
english and gaelic, kind of a slang.
Now as I find traces of the family at the earlier in 1870, and at that
time my gg was 7 and canadian, I assume that they were irish and flew
away from starvation in Ireland. The times matches.
Still I can't find any trace of them or at least a part of the family on
ship arrivals in Canada I'm throwing a line in hope someone can help me
with ship departures in Ireland.
katy
Most Irish immigrants departed from England, though, nd not Ireland, so
you would not be likely to find the information that way. Start looking
at passenger lists for your dates from Liverpool.
cecilia
wrote:
>[...]
>I assume the family came from Ireland during the great starvation and
>settled down in Canada for a while then moved to USA.
>>I've searched for the family in what can be found of the immigrants
>lists in the 1818 to 1866 ships arrivals in Quebec without success.
>Is there a facility to find those who left Ireland in that period ?
See
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~myths/sullivan_127.htm
for a description of the chaos.
Dennis Ahern
The National Archives of Canada
http://www.inGeneas.com/free/main.html
Canadian Immigration Index
http://www.genealogie.gc.ca/06/0602_e.html
Immigrants at Grosse-Île
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~holdenclan/albans.htm
Canadian Border Crossings - St. Alban's Lists
http://www.theshipslist.com/Research/canadarecords.htm
Research Guide to Canadian Passenger Records
http://www.kawartha.net/~jleonard/robinson.htm
Peter Robinson Assisted Emigrants to Canada
http://www.statcan.ca/english/Subjects/Standard/sgc/1996/1996-sgc-index.htm
Geographic Locations in Canada
Bill
>> [...]
>
> See
> http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~myths/sullivan_127.htm
> for a description of the chaos.
Hi Cecilia,
I know that my gg didn't arrive here by himself because he was only 7 at
the time of the great irish immigration.
I also know about the quarantine places. Here in Quebec, Grosse-Ile
served as a quarantine mainly populated with irish immigrants.
I also know that a lot of irish landed in Newfoundland who at that
period was still only a fishery port managed by England. So no actual
registers were kept. Anyway, if they arrived in Newfoundland around 1830
they wouldn't be listed as canadians in the USA sensus.
I looked in what is available from Nova Scotia who were a british
settlement but no luck.
The only place where I've found such a family is near Toronto but the
family's name is McBean. It makes sense, but no trace of the five
children I have even though there are holes in the birth dates of the
rest of the family where "my" dates could be inserted.
It makes sense also because a great lot of immigrants from Great Britain
were steered in that area. It also makes sense because that place is
relatively close, in distance and in transportation facility to
Ogdensburg NY, where I've found that sensus. In that event it would make
sence to have them listed as canadians, but again I find no trace of
them in immigration records. Why ? clerk lasyness ? name subsitution or
misspelling or anything morphing the real name ?
Lori
"Bill" <bill...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:fv4rvs$1nl$1...@aioe.org...
The 1880 US census on familysearch has a Beane family (all born in Canada)
living in St Lawrence, New York state, which looks like yours. Head:
Archibold Beane, b.1817, wife Ellen, b.1818, sons Joseph, b.1865 and
Archibold, b.1871. Birthplace of all their parents is Canada, except for
Archibald senior's father, whose birthplace is New Hampshire.
Regards
Lori
Bill
>> Archibald Bean (head) born around 1818
>> Helen Gordon? (wife) born around 1818
>> Frances (dau) born around 1848
>> Amelia (dau) born around 1853
>> Julia (dau) born around 1857
>> Salina (dau) born around 1859
>> Joseph (son) born around 1863
>>
>> Maybe only part of the family were born overseas but I can't find any
>> trace of their births here in Canada.
>>
>> Thanks
>
> The 1880 US census on familysearch has a Beane family (all born in
> Canada) living in St Lawrence, New York state, which looks like yours.
> Head: Archibold Beane, b.1817, wife Ellen, b.1818, sons Joseph, b.1865
> and Archibold, b.1871. Birthplace of all their parents is Canada, except
> for Archibald senior's father, whose birthplace is New Hampshire.
>
I've seen that census.
There are problems with US censuses due to a lots of reasons listed on
the official census site.
"My" family appears in the 1870 st-lawrence census under the name of
Beans and no more in subsequent ones even if I know they were there
until 1900.
My gg was maried 2 times and had children there. His first wife and
child and a child with his second wife died there. His second wife died
either in Rochester or in Ogdenburg, I'm not sure.
Concerning his second wife's death, I've found a trace of her (I think)
in the NY Will Testators of 1899-1903 under Mary D. Bean from Ogdenburg
vol. 32 page 701. I've sent the money to have the record printed out but
I've never recieved it.
Don Moody
You've done a lot but maybe you ought to stop and reflect.
Quebec wasn't Canada, whatever the Quebecois say or think. It was
Lower Canada and there was also Upper Canada, now known as Ontario.
You mentioned Toronto in passing without apparently realising the
English-speakers, especially Protestants, found that more hospitable
than French-speaking Catholics.
You seem to realise that 'Bean' is flexible but not to realise the
full extent of the flexibility so you may be limiting your searches
and missing what you could find. It's one of the many derivatives of
the Gaelic bheinn, and that transmutes into anything fitting the
general pattern B(occasionally V)-vowel-N-(sometimes E). Some add Mc
or Mac. While any one branch may have its own preferred spelling that
doesn't mean that recorders with other tongues and dialects follow
that spelling.Whether a recorder puts down Bain or Bean depends more
on his ear than on what was pronounced in one regional accent or
another for example.
You don't seem to realise, although it has been gone over many times
in this newsgroup, that northern Ireland and western Scotland simply
cannot be regarded as two separate genealogical regions. You could
very easily find someone claiming to come from Scotland when he
actually came from Ireland, or vice versa. I'm afraid that skill in
'mouth music' and fiddle tunes are not diagnostic for Ireland versus
Scotland. There's quite a few 'high cutters' in the Hebrides who could
show you dancing to fiddle or to mouth music. As for slurring the
music and assuming the old man wasn't senile, I've never heard
anything but a slurring rendition after about the fourth whiskey or
whisky.
Finally you have to consider why the family moved. The hunger and
poverty reason wasn't the only reason for migration and it applied
equally in Ireland and Scotland. There were such things as getting out
before landlords, police or others came calling about debts and crime.
Such people were quite likely to indulge in fairy tales about their
true point of departure. Add to that the discrimination at the
destination when it came to jobs and lodgings which virtually made it
mandatory to come from an acceptable place and to keep up the lie by
telling it to the kids as truth.
I know all this sounds like making your search more difficult but you
seem to have run yourself into the ground with the family stories on
which you have based your search so far. Time to try some different
ideas.
Don
cecilia
wrote:
>[...] I know that my gg didn't arrive here by himself
> because he was only 7 at
> the time of the great irish immigration.
I suggest you read
http://www.historyplace.com/worldhistory/famine/coffin.htm,
considering in particular "the Irish were sent on to their next
destination without any medical inspection or treatment. From Grosse
Isle, the Irish were given free passage up the St. Lawrence". If
there were no immigration health checks, and passage onwards was free,
records became less important, and completeness thereof may not have
been seen as a priority.
Bill
> Lower Canada and there was also Upper Canada, now known as Ontario.
> You mentioned Toronto in passing without apparently realising the
> English-speakers, especially Protestants, found that more hospitable
> than French-speaking Catholics.
I'm sick from genealogy since almost 20 years and on that particular
case since almost the beginning. The story of that guy was something to
untangle. Not because of his sayings but because of stories spread in
the family. Stories that I know now were malicious. Let me tell you just
a bit.
My gg was said to be a runaway from Scotland who hid away in a ship hold
and landed in Nova Scotia where he raped and kidnapped a rich merchant's
daughter and flew to USA to hide away.
I first found that the raped girl was met in Ogdenburg where her father,
a french canadian, was working as brakeman for a railway. They lived
near the port facility were my gg lived also with the above said family.
Her parents were witness at the mariage and sponsors for her first child.
That's for the story.
Now regarding irish and scots immigration, there are lots of villages
along the St-Lawrence river that were settled by them and a rather big
irish community that settled in Montreal.
Of course, the "owner manual" for these immigrants that were given to
them by the british government told that they could have crown lands if
they apply for. These lands were almost all in the York (Toronto) region
of Upper Canada. A lot of these lands were already owned by british
developpers who could hire them or could rent some place to them. These
booklets also gave them hints about prices and what should be better to
buy or bring with them, boat tickets prices and so on.
The biggest part of these immigrants settled in Ontario and a big amount
moved also to afterwards.
During all these movings the names changed because of misearing,
misspelling, mis-anything_you_can_imagine.
Names like MacBethean finally became Bean. In the case of my gg, I think
their name was McBean but the recorder wrote it in the plural form,
Beans, the Beans.
The "fiddling" was reported to me by his grand-son. My gg settled in
Jonquiere, where almost nobody speaks english at that time. The music
style of that people is fiddling for the most. But what was sung by my
gg was something that had some likeness with fiddling. I found, by
getting on the internet irish broadcasting that there's a traditional
signing that looks like what was decribed to me.
I decided to study irish and scottish culture of that time a bit in
order to understand some things and give them some pespective regarding
my gg. I found that the northern people of Ireland and Scotland are
almost integrated to each other but some differences remain especially
in the traditions they keep. And among them is the music which is different.
The guy didn't talk much, as I was told, but knowing that he was sick
and more than 80, it's almost normal to rick while signing old songs.
That man had 17 children with 3 wives, lost many children (6 or 7 from
sickness)and his first two wives, had to move to earn living for the
bunch...
His grand son, actually my mother's cousin didn't know him for long
because his grand was pretty old and he (cousin) left when he was a teen
for Montreal.
I could talk for pages about that family and the studies and the
researches I've made attempting to make a clear story out of that crap
that was spread.
The family may have run away, it's a possibility. It can't be validated
unless there are records of some kind that state it. In the meanwhile,
traces of "regular" people could be found, otherwise I'll consider a
runaway.
> and missing what you could find. It's one of the many derivatives of
> the Gaelic bheinn, and that transmutes into anything fitting the
> general pattern B(occasionally V)-vowel-N-(sometimes E). Some add Mc
> or Mac. While any one branch may have its own preferred spelling that
> doesn't mean that recorders with other tongues and dialects follow
> that spelling.Whether a recorder puts down Bain or Bean depends more
> on his ear than on what was pronounced in one regional accent or
> another for example.
The same family that I've found in Ontario is written as McBean, McBain
and McVeen over the ages and depending of the recorder' ear and education.
> 'mouth music' and fiddle tunes are not diagnostic for Ireland versus
> Scotland. There's quite a few 'high cutters' in the Hebrides who could
> show you dancing to fiddle or to mouth music. As for slurring the
> music and assuming the old man wasn't senile, I've never heard
> anything but a slurring rendition after about the fourth whiskey or
> whisky.
;-) I was not told he drank but it's a possibility even at old age and
sick. ;-)
> true point of departure. Add to that the discrimination at the
> destination when it came to jobs and lodgings which virtually made it
> mandatory to come from an acceptable place and to keep up the lie by
> telling it to the kids as truth.
It's also a possibility. But also I consider something that I realized
over the years. When people have been hard hit by life they tend to
become more silent and thoughtful with the years thus giving a gruff
look. And also, you mustn't forget that the guy was over 64 when his
last child was born and the one I met was the child of this youngest
one. So there are chances that he told some things to his children but
since young men at that time were leaving home at young age to go
lumberjacking for the most of them, it's also possible that the stories
were not transmitted.
>
> I know all this sounds like making your search more difficult but you
> seem to have run yourself into the ground with the family stories on
> which you have based your search so far. Time to try some different
> ideas.
Nothing is more hard to hear and more misleading than the stories that
were told about him.
I feel you're from Ireland isn't it ?
If so, maybe you could help me with something.
Thanks
Bill
Very informative, a lot more than what I read. It confirms what I
understood in my readings here and there and what I suspected about
irish imigrants in Canada, as to they didn't all have medical inspection
and papers. There were big epidemics in Quebec, mainly in Montreal at
that time and I suspected that irish imigration could be the cause
because of the epidemics in Ireland.
I read in a text from a US author that said that at that time, so many
families were comming from Quebec, bringing illnesses with them, that it
was almost a plague.
Thanks Cecilia
J Russell & Theresa D White
> After long and hard researches I've found that his family were listed in a
> 1870 USA sensus as canadians.
>
> I assume the family came from Ireland during the great starvation and
> settled down in Canada for a while then moved to USA.
>
> I've searched for the family in what can be found of the immigrants lists
> in the 1818 to 1866 ships arrivals in Quebec without success.
My story - is that my gg grandfather (and all this is according to his US
naturalization papers and a bit of speculation on my part) departed County
Clare in April 1846 and entered the US at White Hall, NY on/about October
1846.
1. It doesn't take 6 months to cross the Atlantic, even back then.
2. White Hall, NY is at the very southern end of Lake Champlain.
3. It was cheaper to sail to Canada than it was to any port in the US.
(1846 was at the beginning of the great potato famine)
I believe that Dennis White had sailed from County Clare and had enough
money to get him to either Quebec or Montreal. He stayed there awhile
working and earning enough money or passage to the US. Now from White Hall,
NY I can find nothing about him except later on where he lived in
Bellefonte, Centre County, Pennsylvania (very central PA) - how he got from
White Hall, NY to Bellefonte, PA - I don't have a clue.
Hope this helps - and maybe the answer is search in an ever widening circle
away from your starting point.
Annailis
Considering the conditions most had to travel under from Ireland
as well, it's not surprising about the illnesses. And conditions
when they got to Canada weren't always the most delightful.
One of my Irish ancestors who I assume was a famine immigrant
left Ireland ca 1850 and ended up in Hamilton, Ontario for the
1851 census (listed as a labourer). He and his family were
living with 5 or 6 other families in one house. Sometime between
then and the 1861 census he'd lost his wife and possibly one
child (that's another confusing story) and gained another spouse
and children, plus moved slightly north and reduced the living
arrangements to only two families to a house!
Haven't found any of them in ships' records, church records (they
being Catholics are hard to come by), birth records, etc. Only
in censuses and some death records. A lot of those records just
don't exist or aren't available for Upper Canada pre-1860's.
For this time period I'd consider official documentation of
ancestors comings and goings to be the exception not the norm.
I've come to the realization that I probably will never
know quite as much about him or his first family as about the
English immigrants who were landowners - other than that he must
have been of very sturdy stock.
Remember as well that the U.S./British North American border was
a lot more open back then than it is now. No passports required!
Ann W.
Bill
> > I read in a text from a US author that said that at that time, so many
> > families were comming from Quebec, bringing illnesses with them, that it
> > was almost a plague.
> >
> > Thanks Cecilia
>
> Considering the conditions most had to travel under from Ireland as
> well, it's not surprising about the illnesses. And conditions when
> they got to Canada weren't always the most delightful.
> One of my Irish ancestors who I assume was a famine immigrant left
> Ireland ca 1850 and ended up in Hamilton, Ontario for the 1851 census
How did you find ?
> (listed as a labourer). He and his family were living with 5 or 6 other
> families in one house. Sometime between then and the 1861 census he'd
> lost his wife and possibly one child (that's another confusing story)
> and gained another spouse and children, plus moved slightly north and
> reduced the living arrangements to only two families to a house!
>
> Haven't found any of them in ships' records, church records (they being
> Catholics are hard to come by), birth records, etc. Only in censuses
> and some death records. A lot of those records just don't exist or
> aren't available for Upper Canada pre-1860's.
I know, I read through church records to find a family that looks like
mine but with differences. These records are scarse since at that time
there were almost no regular priests or pastors in the beginning
parishes so the chronology of the writings for a single family could be
disrupted because the priest was in another region and the parents
forgot or omitted to declare a birth. There are also land records of the
government and some rare registers from landlords and agents in Ontario.
Out of that is pure nothingness.
> For this time period I'd consider official documentation of ancestors
> comings and goings to be the exception not the norm.
>
> I've come to the realization that I probably will never
> know quite as much about him or his first family as about the English
> immigrants who were landowners - other than that he must have been of
> very sturdy stock.
That's what I consider since quite a bit of time.
> Remember as well that the U.S./British North American border was a lot
> more open back then than it is now. No passports required!
Right but US was a lot more serious in compiling population. They were
making censuses before Canada begins.
That's the only last chance we have when having UK emigrants in our
lineage, hoping they crossed the border at some time.
Annailis
> Annailis a écrit :
>
>> > I read in a text from a US author that said that at that time, so many
>> > families were comming from Quebec, bringing illnesses with them,
>> that it
>> > was almost a plague.
>> >
>> > Thanks Cecilia
>>
>> Considering the conditions most had to travel under from Ireland as
>> well, it's not surprising about the illnesses. And conditions when
>> they got to Canada weren't always the most delightful.
>> One of my Irish ancestors who I assume was a famine immigrant left
>> Ireland ca 1850 and ended up in Hamilton, Ontario for the 1851 census
>
>
> How did you find ?
Fortunately I had a great uncle who wrote down a little about his
family history. That pointed me in the direction of the right
censuses to look at. Mind you the family name's spelling changed
somewhat over the next 5 censuses until they settled on one.
(Incidentally the images of the 1851 census are available online
through Archives Canada).
>> (listed as a labourer). He and his family were living with 5 or 6
>> other families in one house. Sometime between then and the 1861
>> census he'd lost his wife and possibly one child (that's another
>> confusing story) and gained another spouse and children, plus moved
>> slightly north and reduced the living arrangements to only two
>> families to a house!
>>
>> Haven't found any of them in ships' records, church records (they
>> being Catholics are hard to come by), birth records, etc. Only in
>> censuses and some death records. A lot of those records just don't
>> exist or aren't available for Upper Canada pre-1860's.
>
> I know, I read through church records to find a family that looks like
> mine but with differences. These records are scarse since at that time
> there were almost no regular priests or pastors in the beginning
> parishes so the chronology of the writings for a single family could be
> disrupted because the priest was in another region and the parents
> forgot or omitted to declare a birth. There are also land records of the
> government and some rare registers from landlords and agents in Ontario.
>
> Out of that is pure nothingness.
The great uncle was a Jesuit priest and even he couldn't find or
access the marriage certificate for his ancestor's second marriage.
Fortunately if they stay in one place long enough the elusive
ancestors leave footprints that can be traced.
>
>
>
>> For this time period I'd consider official documentation of ancestors
>> comings and goings to be the exception not the norm.
>>
>> I've come to the realization that I probably will never
>> know quite as much about him or his first family as about the English
>> immigrants who were landowners - other than that he must have been of
>> very sturdy stock.
>
>
> That's what I consider since quite a bit of time.
>
>> Remember as well that the U.S./British North American border was a lot
>> more open back then than it is now. No passports required!
>
> Right but US was a lot more serious in compiling population. They were
> making censuses before Canada begins.
>
> That's the only last chance we have when having UK emigrants in our
> lineage, hoping they crossed the border at some time.
The U.S. existed as a nation a lot longer than Canada so had more
time to get serious about compiling statistics. Many members
of my ancestral families crossed back and forth across the U.S.
border and didn't leave "official" traces that I've discovered.
Ann
Frank & Roberta Gebhart
Pittsburgh by going up the St. Lawrence, across Lake Ontario, and
through Buffalo or Rochester?
> -------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GENIRE-...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
>
>
Bill
> at. Mind you the family name's spelling changed somewhat over the next
> 5 censuses until they settled on one.
Yes I know, the ones I'm looking for are in todays spelling the
Lefebvre, mind you their "real" name is Bean. In US they were the Beans,
all from Canada. The only family with some of the first names in it I
found were McBean. And the same bunch, through the Toronto Gore catholic
mission registers were McBain, Bain, McVain, McVean. ;-)
>>>
>>> Haven't found any of them in ships' records, church records (they
>>> being Catholics are hard to come by), birth records, etc. Only in
Why?
Annailis
descendants will be able to fill the tree in more.
Regards,
Ann
Bill
>>>>>
>>>>> Haven't found any of them in ships' records, church records (they
>>>>> being Catholics are hard to come by), birth records, etc. Only in
>>
>> Why?
>>
> Guess I just haven't come across the records yet. Perhaps my
> descendants will be able to fill the tree in more.
You say "being Catholics are hard to come by"
Why?
Annailis
Generally speaking, the Roman Catholic church seems to me to have
kept tighter control on access to their records, but I haven't
really tried hard recently not having easy access now to either
an LDS Family History Centre or the Archives of the Archdiocese
of Hamilton.
Regards,
Ann
Bill
Humm
I saw more erroneous lineages on LDS than anywhere else.
If you go there
http://pistard.banq.qc.ca/unite_chercheurs/recherche_simple?p_anqsid=200805041610223167&P_rech_type=A
and in "Mots ou expressions" insert the name of the parish you want to
consult, and then click on "rechercher"
You'll obtain a list of microfilms that your library can ask for
lending. Then go to your library and look in the filmed registers. They
are the original ones filmed.
another way is to buy a 1 year subscription at
http://www.drouininstitute.com/
Annailis
Hi Bill,
Thanks for the last url there - I may try that one day as our
little township library doesn't have a microfilm reader. Another
thing I should have checked out before I let husband drag me to
this really lovely but not terribly convenient place from the
old really lovely but not convenient place (which did at least
have adequate genealogical facilities)!
Ann
Bill
> Hi Bill,
> Thanks for the last url there - I may try that one day as our little
> township library doesn't have a microfilm reader. Another thing I
> should have checked out before I let husband drag me to this really
> lovely but not terribly convenient place from the old really lovely but
> not convenient place (which did at least have adequate genealogical
> facilities)!
>
> Ann
As we say in french : Qui prend mari prend pays. :-)
In what area do you live ?
Annailis
I prefer matriarchal societies and should have put it in a
pre-nup <g>.
> In what area do you live ?
I'm in Simcoe county, Ontario. No ancestors here.
Ann
Bill
South of Brantford isn't it?
There are no genealogy associations around there ?
London or Hamilton shouldn't be too far. They must have well equiped
libraries there !
I'm in chateauguay south of Montreal. We have a pretty well equiped
library and I'm not too far from a LSS center where I can access lots of
microfilms. But the real best place is the Nationale Archives center in
Montreal. Not too far, only around 25 miles from my place but the bridge
... enough to sell your soul to Hell.
That's why I bought books like "Dictionnaire genealogique des familles
du début a 1730" from Rene Jette. A bit expensive (350$) but worth it
for french catholic lineages.
Bill
Annailis
> Annailis a écrit :
>> Bill wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Bill,
>>>> Thanks for the last url there - I may try that one day as our little
>>>> township library doesn't have a microfilm reader. Another thing I
>>>> should have checked out before I let husband drag me to this really
>>>> lovely but not terribly convenient place from the old really lovely
>>>> but not convenient place (which did at least have adequate
>>>> genealogical facilities)!
>>>>
>>>> Ann
>>>
>>> As we say in french : Qui prend mari prend pays. :-)
>>
>> I prefer matriarchal societies and should have put it in a pre-nup <g>.
>>
>>> In what area do you live ?
>>
>> I'm in Simcoe county, Ontario. No ancestors here.
>>
>> Ann
>>
>
> South of Brantford isn't it?
No, it's north of the GTA and includes Barrie and Lake Simcoe.
> There are no genealogy associations around there ?
Yes, in Barrie, but getting there on a regular basis and
incidentals is a significant expense on a limited budget. Some
of the libraries in Simcoe County have arrangements with each
other for no added membership fees, but of course the one for the
township we live in doesn't.
>
> London or Hamilton shouldn't be too far. They must have well equiped
> libraries there !
>
>
> I'm in chateauguay south of Montreal. We have a pretty well equiped
> library and I'm not too far from a LSS center where I can access lots of
> microfilms. But the real best place is the Nationale Archives center in
> Montreal. Not too far, only around 25 miles from my place but the bridge
> .... enough to sell your soul to Hell.
You're very lucky. We used to live in Sault Ste. Marie which had
an LDS centre as well as a library with microfilm readers and the
capacity to order films, all within a 10 minute drive of where we
lived. Spoiled I was and didn't realize it Now that we're
allegedly nearer to "civilization", genealogical access isn't so
easy.
>
> That's why I bought books like "Dictionnaire genealogique des familles
> du début a 1730" from Rene Jette. A bit expensive (350$) but worth it
> for french catholic lineages.
I have a small genealogical library too but unfortunately nothing
that includes definitive Irish Canadian lineages.
Regards,
Ann
Bill
> You're very lucky. We used to live in Sault Ste. Marie which had an LDS
Sault Ste-Marie, my wife went there by mistake once. She'd been sent to
Capreol for her job. After two months and not having a clue about when
she would come back home, she decided she had enough living in the woods
and hit the road back. She was so in a hurry to come back that instead
of taking route 17 to the east she took it to the west and got to
Ste-Marie. Not recognizing anything she asked her way and found where
she was. She then made the route to Montreal in about 9 hours. When she
arrived in Montreal, she said she was hearing a noise all the way. It
was a wheel and it was loose. I figured she drove at more than 100m/h
all the way with a loose wheel. God is in her rear pocket I guess.
>
> I have a small genealogical library too but unfortunately nothing that
> includes definitive Irish Canadian lineages.
>
So much written on Irish culture and so little on their genealogy. It's
somewhat strange, isn't it ? And to me it looks like they also don't
have much oral tradition either. Maybe because they adopted their new
conditions so deeply when they arrived here that they managed to forget
their past.
It seems that my gg didn't talk much about his past. So little that he
even didn't talk about his parents and family. Or maybe because he was
an old man with young children, and in the years 1910, boys went to work
at young ages.
One of my cousins was married to an irish girl also. She never answered
much to questions on her family too.
I think that many didn't like their poor origins much and it could be an
answer. Nowadays Irish people in Montreal can't be distinguyished from
other english speaking people but by their names but I remember when I
was young, Irish where living mostly in the same area, a poors place, in
Montreal.
Past marks the people for long I think, it becomes like genes.
But genes mutate also.
Dennis Ahern
children who survived Grosse Isle and were taken in by French families
retained their birth names but were raised as French-speaking Quebecois.
There are people today with Irish names who speak French. For example, see
http://homepages.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~aherns/ahobit24.htm#27/02/2004
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Dennis Ahern | The Ahern Family Genealogy Website
Acton, Massachusetts | http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~aherns/
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Annailis
>
>> You're very lucky. We used to live in Sault Ste. Marie which had an LDS
>
> Sault Ste-Marie, my wife went there by mistake once. She'd been sent to
> Capreol for her job. After two months and not having a clue about when
> she would come back home, she decided she had enough living in the woods
> and hit the road back. She was so in a hurry to come back that instead
> of taking route 17 to the east she took it to the west and got to
> Ste-Marie. Not recognizing anything she asked her way and found where
> she was. She then made the route to Montreal in about 9 hours. When she
> arrived in Montreal, she said she was hearing a noise all the way. It
> was a wheel and it was loose. I figured she drove at more than 100m/h
> all the way with a loose wheel. God is in her rear pocket I guess.
If she actually made the trip from the Soo to Montreal in 9 hrs.
I'm surprised all wheels weren't loose and the shocks, struts,
etc. weren't shot. Those roads aren't the greatest and she really
must have been flying - no rest stops on the way, either! Funny
story, though.
>>
>> I have a small genealogical library too but unfortunately nothing that
>> includes definitive Irish Canadian lineages.
>>
>
> So much written on Irish culture and so little on their genealogy. It's
> somewhat strange, isn't it ? And to me it looks like they also don't
> have much oral tradition either. Maybe because they adopted their new
> conditions so deeply when they arrived here that they managed to forget
> their past.
>
> It seems that my gg didn't talk much about his past. So little that he
> even didn't talk about his parents and family. Or maybe because he was
> an old man with young children, and in the years 1910, boys went to work
> at young ages.
>
> One of my cousins was married to an irish girl also. She never answered
> much to questions on her family too.
>
> I think that many didn't like their poor origins much and it could be an
> answer. Nowadays Irish people in Montreal can't be distinguyished from
> other english speaking people but by their names but I remember when I
> was young, Irish where living mostly in the same area, a poors place, in
> Montreal.
>
> Past marks the people for long I think, it becomes like genes.
>
> But genes mutate also.
It's easy to become disconnected from your roots. Deaths,
divorce, moving can cut people off from their family's past. And
some just aren't that interested!
Ann
Bill
> One of the things I recall learning is that the orphaned immigrant
> children who survived Grosse Isle and were taken in by French families
> retained their birth names but were raised as French-speaking Quebecois.
> There are people today with Irish names who speak French. For example, see
> http://homepages.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~aherns/ahobit24.htm#27/02/2004
You're right Dennis, I know a Sullivan french speaking family whose name
was O'Sullivan and another one whose daughter was my son's girlfriend.
Here in Quebec, the community who integrated the most our society is the
Irish one and I don't say that because a lot of them now have french as
a mother tongue but because they adopted our lifestyle so well.
Bill
>> Sault Ste-Marie, my wife went there by mistake once. She'd been sent
>
> surprised all wheels weren't loose and the shocks, struts, etc. weren't
> shot. Those roads aren't the greatest and she really must have been
> flying - no rest stops on the way, either! Funny story, though.
>>>
She called me around 10 at night, crying and lost. After some smooth
talking she stopped a cop and hit the road. She called me back at 7 the
next day and announced me that she was in sight of Montreal, in fact she
was at Vaudreuil, only about 10 miles from Montreal. The last few miles
took her around an hour and a half because of the workers traffic jams.
You're right, no stops no rest and the fuel pedal jammed on the floor.
When she saw the loose wheel she became so pale I was sure she'd faint.
>
> It's easy to become disconnected from your roots. Deaths, divorce,
> moving can cut people off from their family's past. And some just
> aren't that interested!
Yes but I have friends from Hungary and Russia who kept their
traditions, carried on their language and raised their children in
respect with their traditions. My neighbour is from Croatia and his wife
from Romania, they speak french, english, of course their mother
tongues, they live just as we do but teach their children their
traditions and languages, they have also traditional clothes for some
special events of their own. We fraternize quite a lot and exchange our
views on everything, that's why I can tell that they strongly keep on
their origins while living like us.
But there's one thing, they'll never be seen as quebecers as the Irish
are. There will always be something different even if they are very well
integrated. We can't say the same for the Irish. We consider them just
as us.
Maybe it's easier to live that way.
But it's a problem for genalogists !! ;-)))
katy
>
>
> But there's one thing, they'll never be seen as quebecers as the Irish
> are. There will always be something different even if they are very well
> integrated. We can't say the same for the Irish. We consider them just
> as us.
>
> Maybe it's easier to live that way.
>
> But it's a problem for genalogists !! ;-)))
The Irish who emigrated to N.A. came from a country that had been
suppressed, terrorized, and starved since Cromwell's time. The people
were downtrodden and poor but resilient. When they came to the States,
thye were for the most part regarded as equal to blacks at the time in
social standing. I would imagine that most of them were most grateful to
forget the past and to forge forward, as they did, seeing that a large
percentage of North Americans have some Irish ancestry to claim. Gaelic
had been banned. At times, the CHurch was banned. Cultural dances, etc.
were banned. Many probably forgot them, or were afraid. Unless you were
from the far western reaches of Ireland, Mayo on up, youir heritage ahd
been supressed and subjugated. It's little wonder that there's not much
to pass on. That's what genocide is about...wiping out people and their
memories.
curraveha
names of
all who emigrated from ship passenger records. I cannot remember which
agency is doing it.
I ran across it within the last six months on an official website.
Dwight Radford and Kyle Betit's book "A Genealogist's Guide to Discovering
Your Irish Ancestors" (Betterway Books) has a 30+ page section on Canadian
genealogical sources.
I highly recommend it.
I borrowed a copy through my local library network and ended up buying one
for reference.
"Bill" <bill...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:fv4rvs$1nl$1...@aioe.org...
> Hi
>
> My gg was said to be an irish immigrant.
> After long and hard researches I've found that his family were listed in a
> 1870 USA sensus as canadians.
>
> I assume the family came from Ireland during the great starvation and
> settled down in Canada for a while then moved to USA.
>
> I've searched for the family in what can be found of the immigrants lists
> in the 1818 to 1866 ships arrivals in Quebec without success.
>
> Is there a facility to find those who left Ireland in that period ?
>
> The family names are: