opposition
pnmi...@igc.org
From: <pnmideast>
Subject: opposition
/* Written 5:45 pm Jul 17, 1992 by caa_v...@zamir-bg.comlink.apc.org in cdp:yugo.antiwar */
/* ---------- "opposition" ---------- */
July l2,l992
Belgrade
Brief outline of the situation in Belgrade
Nowadays,Belgrade is probably the most despised of all the
cities in the world.Yet,it is rather a peaceful town comparing to
other cities in former Yugoslavia.Why does the whole world and the
rest of former Yugoslavia hated us?Of all the cities that are to
blame for this unfair war,Belgrade is the only one that has not
paid yet for its part of the guilt.Will it collapse in a two days
time or will the agony linger on?
Belgrade is a city of illusions and absurdities."Why
absurdities?"someone will ask.For I can tell you incredible stories
coming from Belgrade.
Three meetings(I will only mention three of many of them I
consider to be of substance)have been organized in the period of
a year and a half.The demands of all of them were the same:the
resignation of the president of Serbia.Nearly the same people
initiated those meetings that turned out to be
demonstrations:leaders of the opposition,intellectuals and
students-the intelligencia of Serbia.
In the last run,there were two strongholds of
demonstration:the University of Belgrade(politically
independant,i.e. politically autonmous)and the plateau in front of
the Parliament of Yugoslavia.The meeting on the plateau was held
on the occasion of Vidovdan,one of the most significant holidays
of the Orthodox Church of Serbia.There were not only people from
Belgrade;on the contrary,there were more participants from the
provinces.They left their homes and the fields they cultivated with
so little means and so much effort and all their belongings just
to say "No",to show that Serbia is not sleeping anymore and that
there are people in Serbia that still think.During that week when
we thought things were happening much faster than they were,those
people slept on bare earth in their tents.Those were
peasants,poor,uneducated people,yet with a strong feeling of the
necessity of a change.One of the slogans was in English and was
very simple:CHANGE.
Statistics say that approximately two million of people have
circulated in that area during the meeting.At the same time,almost
two streets far from the plateau,in the University of
Belgrade,something big was happening.The whole university was on
strike.It was not just an ordinary protest with a lot of shouting
and a lot of silence when someone was shouting.There was a
various,intellectual programme going on for more than twenty
days.All the intellectuals of Serbias visited the
students:professors from diverse parts of the
country,philosophers,politicians,musicians,writers,actors and
others.What I admire about this protest is the spirit of our
intellectual youth.A lot of plans,a lot of
thinking,a lot of original ideas.These slogans illustrate it the
best:"Holding one's eyes closed doesn't help in darkness" or
"Daddy,should I get killed so that you would become aware of
it?".Who are these slogans for,or it is better to say against?they
are against a man who is blind and won t see the procession of
students,3 km long,heading to his residence.Against a man who is
deaf and does not want to hear his name,a million times
announced,called and a billion times sworn.How many petitions have
been signed by the most important people of this country?Walk along
the widest street in Belgrade and you will see the badges with
these statements:"Forces of chaos and madness"(that is what the
authorities call the opposition) or "It is spring and I live in
Serbia" or just "Go away".
So we beg the world to help us.Don't be mistaken,it is not
the overwhelming majority that supports the position,there are a
lot of us striving for truth and justice.Please,help us,we are
desperate.You will not help us by bombing us,the sanctions are
enough.
Bojana Cvejic,Belgrade.
Davor Matic
|> So we beg the world to help us.Don't be mistaken,it is not
|> the overwhelming majority that supports the position,there are a
|> lot of us striving for truth and justice.Please,help us,we are
|> desperate.You will not help us by bombing us,the sanctions are
|> enough.
|>
|> Bojana Cvejic,Belgrade.
I don't think that anyone wants to bomb civilians. If any bombing does occur, it
will be military targets only. And in my opinion, this actually WOULD help you.
Taking the toys away from the steam-heads that think they can have their way if
they have the pover, will be a positive move. Once Serbian generals start being
affraid of Croats or Bosnians, because their military superiority has been
destroyed by an outside factor, maybe there will finally be a ripe athmosphere
for negotiations. As one Slovene military expert said, this war is the SIXTH
(yes, 6th) time in the last two centuries that serbs stared a war for Great
Serbia. It's about time to end this nonsence and put a damper on Serbian
military power. Just like with Germany after WWII.
Ana M. Shane
>In article <14753...@igc.org>, pnmi...@igc.org writes:
>|> So we beg the world to help us.Don't be mistaken,it is not
>|> the overwhelming majority that supports the position,there are a
>|> lot of us striving for truth and justice.Please,help us,we are
>|> desperate.You will not help us by bombing us,the sanctions are
>|> enough.
>|>
>|> Bojana Cvejic,Belgrade.
>I don't think that anyone wants to bomb civilians. If any bombing does occur, it
^^
>will be military targets only. And in my opinion, this actually WOULD help
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ *******************
>you.
****
>Taking the toys away from the steam-heads that think they can have their way if
>they have the pover, will be a positive move. Once Serbian generals start being
>affraid of Croats or Bosnians, because their military superiority has been
>destroyed by an outside factor, maybe there will finally be a ripe athmosphere
>for negotiations. As one Slovene military expert said, this war is the SIXTH
>(yes, 6th) time in the last two centuries that serbs stared a war for Great
>Serbia. It's about time to end this nonsence and put a damper on Serbian
>military power. Just like with Germany after WWII.
^^You are either naive or stupid or both...
**and also vicious...
but maybe just a victim of propaganda...
You didn't learn yet that aggression only perpetuates aggression and will
never bring any peacefull solutions?
Peace
Ana M. Shane
George Bogavac
>> e SIXTH
>>As one Slovene military expert said, this war is the SIXTH (yes, 6th)
>>Serbia. ian
I can't help but wonder: If this is the sixth, what/when were the
previous five...?
Regards,
George Bogavac
Davor Matic
Listen darling, if you had a gun and were about to kill ten people,
and if I had a clear shot at you, I wouldn't hesitate much about it.
I am very much for peace, but that doesn't relieve me of moral choices
that might include violence themselves. So, unfortunately, there are
times when one has to use violence to facilitate peace.
Regards,
--- Davor
Ana M. Shane
>Listen darling, if you had a gun and were about to kill ten people,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>and if I had a clear shot at you, I wouldn't hesitate much about it.
>I am very much for peace, but that doesn't relieve me of moral choices
*************
>that might include violence themselves. So, unfortunately, there are
>times when one has to use violence to facilitate peace.
> Regards,
> --- Davor
Honey,
You didn't really answer the letter from Belgrade, where people who are
as much AGAINST the war as you are, if not more, desperatelly ask for
help in strengthening their positions. Your help comes in the form of
bombs!!! Is that your moral choice? Why are you giving a lecture to
people who want to stop the war? Do you also think in terms Serb/Croat?
Haven't you learned yet that this is not a Serb/Croat/Moslem war? Haven't
you learned that all the troubles started with this Serb/Croat/Moslem/
Albanian/etc distinctions between people. Once many people started
to think about others along these lines the war was innevitable!
So: instead of giving lectures to Serbs (regardless of what else they are)
please learn or re-learn the basic human ability to distinguish
between people according to some real traits! I wouldn't like to
see you, such a cleaver young (?) boy lost as a human being and yes
a Croat! Capish, honey?
Peace
Ana
Ana M. Shane
>In article <Aug.4.00.26....@andromeda.rutgers.edu> psh...@andromeda.rutgers.edu (Ana M. Shane) writes:
>>
>>Belgrade, where people who are
>>as much AGAINST the war as you are, if not more, desperatelly ask for
>>help in strengthening their positions.
>Ana,
>The paradox is that, while they state that they are against the war, they
>still generally support "all Serbs in one state" which can only be
>accomplished by force. Have the students in Belgrade retracted the
>SANU memorandum? Note as well that the Serbian Orthodox Church, while
>stating its opposition to the war and to the current Serbian leadership,
>still stated its support for "all Serbs in one state".
>I think this explains why the Serbian opposition to date has not had a
>larger-than-symbolic impact, and why it probably won't either. This is
>my opinion, but the former paragraph is fact.
In a way I agree with you because they (the opposition in Serbia)),
unfortunately, also think along the nationalistic lines. The idea of
a state for all people regardless of nationality has been totally
forgoten. And I claim that it is impossible, especially in today's
world, to organize a just national state. We are all too much connected,
too much dependent on each other, and too much mixed for any nationally
clean state to be just.
The world (or lets say some parts of it) recognized this fact at least
a little bit when they created states independant of religion. It is a
high time to state that a democratic and a just state has to be built
independently of a nation. Any other rule instantly produces two catego-
ries of citizens: the "rightful" majority of a dominant nation an
minorities. This is so simple to understand and yet, today in the
former Yugoslavia so far out of the picture on all the sides. Alas!
And I still claim that this war is ultimatelly the war of the various
ex-Yu Republics governments against their own respective peoples in
which all the sides succeeded to throw the people against each other
in order to preserve their own positions a bit longer.
Just look at who are the leaders and what kind of families they come
from:
Tudjman's father killed his wife and commited a suicide
Milosevic's parents (both) ) and an uncle commited suicides.
Karadzic's father vas convicted on 20 years of prison because he
raped and killed his own niece.
etc...there are many other examples!
Do you think that these are psychologically healthy people?
>Regards,
>Joe Blazic
regards
Ana M. Shane
Srdjan Mitrovic
R) writes:
>
>The paradox is that, while they state that they are against the war, they
>still generally support "all Serbs in one state" which can only be
>accomplished by force.
That's not true. What's your source? (My sources are reports from
Austrian and Swiss TV)
> Have the students in Belgrade retracted the
>SANU memorandum?
Why should they? First they are not the authors, and never supported it.
Second, the SANU memorandum was never an official statement, but a draft.
It might have represented the opinion of some people at some time,
but it was never a direction pointer. So you can not retract something
that was not stated by yourself that you never supported and was officially
never published.
> Note as well that the Serbian Orthodox Church, while
>stating its opposition to the war and to the current Serbian leadership,
>still stated its support for "all Serbs in one state".
The source?
>
>I think this explains why the Serbian opposition to date has not had a
>larger-than-symbolic impact, and why it probably won't either. This is
>my opinion, but the former paragraph is fact.
^^^^^
Huh? I mean,if it is a fact why stress it....if...
>
>Regards,
>
>Joe Blazic
>
Srdjan
Davor Matic
>dma...@athena.mit.edu (Davor Matic) writes:
>
>>Listen darling, if you had a gun and were about to kill ten people,
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>and if I had a clear shot at you, I wouldn't hesitate much about it.
>>I am very much for peace, but that doesn't relieve me of moral choices
> *************
>>that might include violence themselves. So, unfortunately, there are
>>times when one has to use violence to facilitate peace.
>
>> Regards,
>> --- Davor
>
>Honey,
>
>You didn't really answer the letter from Belgrade, where people who are
>as much AGAINST the war as you are, if not more, desperatelly ask for
>help in strengthening their positions. Your help comes in the form of
>bombs!!! Is that your moral choice? Why are you giving a lecture to
You can keep singing serenades about benevolent Serbs in Belgrade
wanting to stop this war, but that will not help thousands of
non-Serbs daily starved to death in Serbian concentration camps.
Believe me, darling, if I dropped a bomb or Karadic or Miloshevic
their followers would think twice about shooting inncoent babies or
their grandbothers at the cemetary. If Israel didn't destroy Sadam's
nuclear power plant and Bush his military power, we would have had a
nuclear war raging on this planet by now. So YES, that is my MORAL
choice. BTW, why would my destruction of Serbian military power be
bad for peaceloving Serbs? If they are for peace, why do they need arms?
>people who want to stop the war? Do you also think in terms Serb/Croat?
>Haven't you learned yet that this is not a Serb/Croat/Moslem war? Haven't
>you learned that all the troubles started with this Serb/Croat/Moslem/
>Albanian/etc distinctions between people. Once many people started
>to think about others along these lines the war was innevitable!
There is nothing wrong with distinguishing between people on any basis
whatsoever. I am a man, and you are a woman, we are white some are
black, etc, etc. We can not deny our differences and we need to be
given the right to our cultural, national, sexual or any orther sort
of identity. It's the people that would like us all to be the same
that I fear, because they are the ones that usually have a problem
when someone is different. I have no problem acknowledging that you
are different and accepting you for what you are without any
prejudice. Can you say the same about yourself? The rest of your
letter seems to suggest that you can't.
>So: instead of giving lectures to Serbs (regardless of what else they are)
>please learn or re-learn the basic human ability to distinguish
>between people according to some real traits! I wouldn't like to
>see you, such a cleaver young (?) boy lost as a human being and yes
>a Croat! Capish, honey?
Ana darling, if you really believe in what you preach, why did you
have to call me a Croat, a boy, and young? You have just mentioned
three "real traits", nationality, gender, and age, by which you refer
to me. Well, if that is not superficial, then I don't know what is.
It seems to me that you are the one that should be working on the
things you are trying to have us believe. Or otherwise, we'll just
call you a hypocrite.
>
>Peace
>Ana
Regards,
--- Davor
Ana M. Shane
>>You didn't really answer the letter from Belgrade, where people who are
>>as much AGAINST the war as you are, if not more, desperatelly ask for
>>help in strengthening their positions. Your help comes in the form of
>>bombs!!! Is that your moral choice? Why are you giving a lecture to
>You can keep singing serenades about benevolent Serbs in Belgrade
>wanting to stop this war, but that will not help thousands of
>non-Serbs daily starved to death in Serbian concentration camps.
Truly, it will not help them. Our talks in this network really
can't help them! In fact, if you think better - what we are doing
is in a way obscene! (no sarcasm) But what might help them is to
somehow stop the war. You just don't agree with me about the
means of doing that.
> If Israel didn't destroy Sadam's
>nuclear power plant and Bush his military power, we would have had a
>nuclear war raging on this planet by now. So YES, that is my MORAL
>choice. BTW, why would my destruction of Serbian military power be
>bad for peaceloving Serbs? If they are for peace, why do they need arms?
Are you really comparing Serbian government with Sadaam Husein's? What
is going on now in ex-Yu is thousand times worse than in Irak and the
Middle-east in general. (although of course the tragedy of people is
always horrible and cannot be compared with another's tragedy). But -
to answer more precisely: your MORAL CHOICE also includes: Sadaam
is still in power, greater than ever in his country. The Kurds are by
now totally forgotten. (Really, what happened to them?) Kuwait is as
before a totally oppressive country with no trace of democracy. Saudi-
Arabia also. But they sell their oil at fair prices! etc...Why discuss
it further?
>>people who want to stop the war? Do you also think in terms Serb/Croat?
>>Haven't you learned yet that this is not a Serb/Croat/Moslem war? Haven't
>>you learned that all the troubles started with this Serb/Croat/Moslem/
>>Albanian/etc distinctions between people. Once many people started
>>to think about others along these lines the war was innevitable!
>There is nothing wrong with distinguishing between people on any basis
>whatsoever. I am a man, and you are a woman, we are white some are
^^^^^^^^^^^^
are you sure?
>black, etc, etc. We can not deny our differences and we need to be
^^^^^
in this country (USA) you are still considered black even if you
have only 1/16 part black ancestors (one great parent)!
>given the right to our cultural, national, sexual or any orther sort
>of identity. It's the people that would like us all to be the same
^^^^
no! not the same. JUST EQUAL
>that I fear, because they are the ones that usually have a problem
>when someone is different. I have no problem acknowledging that you
>are different and accepting you for what you are without any
>prejudice. Can you say the same about yourself? The rest of your
>letter seems to suggest that you can't.
So why did you start you first reply to me with "DARLING"? when we
don't even know each other. Is it because you have special treatement
for women? If that is not a prejudice... And the rest of my letter as
well as the beginning was doing exactly the same to you. Just so you would
see for yourself how you feel when someone treats you so superficially!
As you said yourself later on: being a Serb, Croat, Moslem, German,
Jewish, etc is a VERY superficial characteristic, just the same as
being a man/woman, young/old.
And yet: you sort of approve war on the basis of this SUPERFICIAL
trait! To you the fact that there exist "serbian peace workers" means
"SERBIAN peace workers". To me it means "serbian PEACE workers".
>Ana darling, if you really believe in what you preach, why did you
>have to call me a Croat, a boy, and young? You have just mentioned
>three "real traits", nationality, gender, and age, by which you refer
>to me. Well, if that is not superficial, then I don't know what is.
>It seems to me that you are the one that should be working on the
>things you are trying to have us believe. Or otherwise, we'll just
>call you a hypocrite.
see above
> Regards,
> --- Davor
Peace,
Ana
Davor Matic
>dma...@athena.mit.edu (Davor Matic) writes:
>
Let me remind you that Yugoslavia (that is Serbia) supported Sadam
fully in the moments of crisis. Also, Yugoslav planes were among the
only ones that were allowd to leave during the air blocade. So it
seems to me that Serbian government and Sadam do go hand in hand after
all...
> What
>is going on now in ex-Yu is thousand times worse than in Irak and the
>Middle-east in general. (although of course the tragedy of people is
>always horrible and cannot be compared with another's tragedy). But -
>to answer more precisely: your MORAL CHOICE also includes: Sadaam
>is still in power, greater than ever in his country. The Kurds are by
>now totally forgotten. (Really, what happened to them?) Kuwait is as
>before a totally oppressive country with no trace of democracy. Saudi-
>Arabia also. But they sell their oil at fair prices! etc...Why discuss
>it further?
Sadam is still in power, but he doesn't have much military power any more.
And he isn't much of a threat to his neighbours as much as he used to be.
>>There is nothing wrong with distinguishing between people on any basis
>>whatsoever. I am a man, and you are a woman, we are white some are
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^
>are you sure?
>
No, I'm not sure, and it desn't matter. This was just for effect, not
to support any of my stands or claims.
>>black, etc, etc. We can not deny our differences and we need to be
> ^^^^^
>in this country (USA) you are still considered black even if you
>have only 1/16 part black ancestors (one great parent)!
>
That's pretty silly if you ask me. Most of the discrimination occurs
when you display any kind of diviation from majrity very openly, like
different skin color, different lifestyle, or different dialect. For
all I know I could be black myself by the definition above.
>>given the right to our cultural, national, sexual or any orther sort
>>of identity. It's the people that would like us all to be the same
>
>no! not the same. JUST EQUAL
>
>>that I fear, because they are the ones that usually have a problem
>>when someone is different. I have no problem acknowledging that you
>>are different and accepting you for what you are without any
>>prejudice. Can you say the same about yourself? The rest of your
>>letter seems to suggest that you can't.
>
>So why did you start you first reply to me with "DARLING"? when we
>don't even know each other. Is it because you have special treatement
>for women? If that is not a prejudice...
No. You assume that I called you a darling because you are a woman,
but that isn't the case. Alctually, you really found a wrong person
for such an accusation because most of the darlings in my life were
not women at all. I called you a 'darling' because of the emotional,
sentimental tone of your request that was suposed to make us feel
sorry for the benevolent Serbs, and apeal to our emotins, not our
intellect.
>And the rest of my letter as
>well as the beginning was doing exactly the same to you. Just so you would
>see for yourself how you feel when someone treats you so superficially!
>As you said yourself later on: being a Serb, Croat, Moslem, German,
>Jewish, etc is a VERY superficial characteristic, just the same as
>being a man/woman, young/old.
>
>And yet: you sort of approve war on the basis of this SUPERFICIAL
>trait! To you the fact that there exist "serbian peace workers" means
>"SERBIAN peace workers". To me it means "serbian PEACE workers".
>
No, I approve a war on basis of offenders and defenders. Serbs are
the ones that have too much military power for their own good. And
they are the ones doing most of the ethnic cleansing. So they are the
ones that need to be stopped if we want to cut the problem in its
roots. And besides, all the military that Serbs posess now belongs
mostly to other nations of ex-Yugoslvaia anyway. I do not call for
bombing of civilian targets, but only select militiary targets, such
as military air bases, strategic bridges to stop Serbian intervention
in Bosnia, etc, etc.
Regards,
--- Davor