Just for you Barry Marjanovich!

[sa...@mail.idt.net]

As you read the following text it is worth mentioning a letter to the
editor of the New York Times, dated December 26, 1994, by a free lance
journalists, Vanni Cappelli. He said: 'Back home, I set down my
experiences in an article that contained my eyewitness accounts of the
aftermath of a Muslim ethnic cleansing campaign directed against the
Croat inhabitants of the Travnik region, systematic profiteering from
internationally donated humanitarian aid by Muslim army commanders in
the city of Zenica. No publication in the United States has wanted to
publish my account. Surely, truth is ill served when what is seen
cannot be told.'

There are 212 Serbian churches destroyed in this war. This is only a
partial list placed in alphabetic order for easier reference.

BATINJANA in the Pakrac municipality. The Serbian Orthodox Church of
St. Dimitrius the Martyr was built in 1739 and the iconostasis was
created about 1747. The priest, Fr. Stanoje Popovic, one of the leading
masters of popular fresco painting in the first half of the 18th century
was the painter. In 1991, Croatian terrorists and civilians carried out
the complete destruction of this church.

BELO BERDO
The Serbian church of St. Nicholas built in 1764 was taken over during
the Second World War and converted to a Roman Catholic church. After
destroying the iconostasis and religious objects, the Croatians returned
the church. In 1991, outside war maneuvers, this church was severely
damages, it artifacts were once again destroyed.

BJELOVAR
The Serbian Cathedral was built in 1784. when the iconostasis of Jovan
Cetirevic Grabovan was relocated, the new iconostasis was painted by
Celestin Medovic and Bela Cikos in 1902. Interior frescos were painted
by I. Tisov and H. Hohnejc. The church was a registered landmark. In
1991 the church was gutted by the Croatian militia along with the parish
center.

BOLC
In the Zagreb-Ljubljana Diocese, the Serbian Orthodox Church of Sts.
Gabriel and Michael the Archangels was built in 1975. Its cultural
goods included a printed venetian Book of Psalms, dated in 1642. The
church was listed as a world-class landmark. In 12991, the church was
damaged and its interior was gutted with explosives. This damage was
done outside war maneuvers.

BROCANAC
In the Dalmatian Diocese. The Serbian church of The Apostles Sts. Peter
and Paul was built in the 18th century and was renovated in 1805. In
1991 the church was damaged during war maneuvers. the extent of damage
has not been assessed as the Serbians have been prohibited from seeing
the property.

BRSADIN, CROATIA
The Serbian Orthodox Church of St. Gabriel the Archangel was built in
1750. A new belfry was built by Anton Semper in 1834. The iconostasis
was painted by Marko Peros. The church was renovated in 1983. In 1991,
the belfry was damaged, as was the front facade of the church, destroyed
by dynamite.

DALJ, CROATIA
In the Karlovac Diocese, the Serbian Orthodox Church of St. Dimitrius
the Martyr, the bishopric cathedral was built in 1799. It was one of
the most monumental late Baroque churches in the Karlovac diocese. The
iconostasis was painted by Pavel Djurkovic, one of the leading
representatives of Serbian classicism-Biedermeier painting. The
iconostasis was concluded in 1822, and the art work was finished in
1824. In 1942, the church was demolished and the iconostasis was
burned. The demolition was led by Roman Catholic priest Josip Astalos.
The rebuilt structure was again attacked in 1991, and the church facade
was damaged.

DALJ
The Serbian church of the Dormition of the Most Holy Virgin was built by
Metropolitan Pavle Nenadovic in 1759. The iconostasis was painted by
leading Serbian Baroque masters Vasilije Ostojic and Dimitrije Bacevic.
In 1941 this church was the first church of the Osjecko Polje Diocese to
be destroyed in the First Independent State of Croatia. The church
furnishings were destroyed, along with most of the iconostasis, while
only the upper parts were saved. The chapel was renovated in the postwar
period. In 19991, Croatian militia mined the en trace to the church.
It has not been possible to confirm the extent of the current damage.

DARDA
The Serbian Orthodox Church of St. Michael the Archangel was built in
1777. The iconostasis and church furnishings date to the time the
structure was built. In 1991, the Croatian militia damaged the church
facade with shells. The extent of the damage is not fully known.

DERVENTA
Bosnia-Herzegovina, 1992. Fr. Nikodin Cavic, a retired Serbian Orthodox
priests and lawyer gave testimony that he was in a building surrounded
by Bosnian Muslims who captured him and several local citizens including
a number of children. The Muslims raped children as young as six years
of age, then murdered and dismembered them. Dozens of Serbian children
in the village were slaughtered that day, many of whom were cut into
numerous pieces.

DOLJANI
In the Slavonia Diocese of Croatia. The Serbian Orthodox Church of St.
Elijah was built in 1805 and renovated in 1904 and 1979. The parapet
tiles of the iconostasis had depictions of Tsar Lazar, Tsarina Milica
and the 9 Jugovics. During the Second World War on August 2, 1943, on
the day the church’s saint’s day, Croatians destroyed the walls, roof
and structure, belfry window and doors. The wood carved iconostasis,
ceremonial objects, books and the archives were all destroyed; only one
chalice and two candlesticks were saved. The church was completely
restored during the postwar period. In 1991, during war maneuvers, the
church was completely destroyed along with the iconostasis and the
furnishings and ceremonial objects.

DONJI BOGICEVCI
Slavonia Diocese in Croatia. The Serbian church of the Resurrection Of
The Lord was build in the second half of the 18th century. The
iconostasis contained 24 icons from that period. In 12943, the church
was completely destroyed, including all religious objects, leaving walls
of only several meters in height. A new church was constructed on the
old foundation during the postwar period. In 1991, Croatian militia
severely damaged the church. The bell tower was destroyed and the
facade was eliminated. The iconostasis and furnishings were ruined and
only a few small icons survived.

DONJI ZEMUNIK
In the Dalmatia Diocese. The Serbian Orthodox Church of St. Sava began
construction just before the Second World War and was completed during
the postwar years. On April 1, 1991, the church was demolished. Icons
and religious objects are missing from the church.

DRNIS
Dalmatia Diocese. The Serbian Orthodox Church of the Dormition of the
Most Holy Virgin was originally built in 1618 and was replaced by a new
building in 1905. During the Second World War, Friar Petar Berkovic led
the desecration of the church-looting it of its religious objects,
particularly the liturgy books. In 1991, the church was considerably
damaged during war maneuvers and the belfry was shelled.

GABOS
The Serbian Orthodox Church of The Birth of the Most Holy Virgin was
built in 1810. The iconostasis belongs to the category of popular naive
art and, according to the records, was painted in 1844. In 1991, during
war operations, the church was shelled and hit four times destroying the
bell tower completely and causing great damage to the structure.

GLINA
Gornji Karlovac Diocese. The Serbian church of the Birth of the Most
Holy Virgin was constructed in 1826 in the reigning spirit of
classicism. On August 12, 1941, the Ustashi completely burned the
church with hundreds of Serbian villagers inside. In 1963, a completely
new church was built on the foundation of the old church. In 1991, the
Croatian militia bombed the facade destroying the front half of the
church.

GORNJA OBREZA
Slavonia Diocese of Croatia. The Serbian Orthodox Church of St. John
the Apostle was built in 1747. The iconostasis was painted in the
second half of the 18th century by an unknown fresco painter who
inscribed the icons in Greek letters, indicating his origin. An
inventory compiled in 1874 indicates that the church altar had 5 icons
and the iconostasis contained 50 icons. In 1991, Croatian militia
completely burned and destroyed the church and all of its contents.

GORNJI PETROVCI
The Serbian Orthodox Church of the Resurrection of the Lord was built in
1769. The iconostasis paintings belong to the popular art from the
first half of the 19th century. There were painted in a fresco style
that can be ascribed to Bogdan Djukic. The altar area and naos walls
contain depictions of saints painted on canvas and blued to the walls.
In 1991, the church was shelled and the belfry cap wand naos root
structure were damaged.

GORNJI TOVARNIK
The Serbian Orthodox Church of St. George the Martyr was built by master
builder Petar Suvakovic in 1797. The walls and the choir loft paintings
were done by Petar Cortanovic, according to the contract signed in
1834. The iconostasis paintings appeared in the mid 19th century. The
Virgin’s icon contains the founder’s inscription signed in 1853 by Jovan
Isajlovic the Younger. The church was renovated in 1903, at which time
Stevan Todorovic painted two wall compositions as evidenced by the
inscription on the western wall of the church. In 1942, the church was
damaged and looted, and the archives and books were completely
destroyed. The church was restored in postwar periods. In 1991, the
church tower was hit by several shells. The walls are cracked and the
frescoes were damaged. The iconostasis and church furnishings were
ruined.

GOSPIC
In the Gornji Karlovac Diocese. The Serbian Orthodox Church of St.
George was built in 1785. The iconostasis was painted in 1902 and the
work was accomplished by Professor Bauer from Zagreb. In 1942, the
church was burned to the ground with several hundred Serbian villagers
inside. All church furnishings were destroyed. In 19064, the church
was rebuild on the same site. In 1991, the Croatian Ustashi again
destroyed the church-but, since the Serbs were cleansed from the
village, its is not possible to confirm the extent of the current
damage.

GRUBISNO POLJE
In the Zagreb-Ljubljana Diocese. The Serbian Orthodox Church was built
in 1776 and renovated in 1829. Serbian Orthodox Bishop Sofronije
Jovanovic dedicated the epitaphios in 1750. During the Second World
War, Croatian Ustashi damaged the church and seven old manuscripts were
destroyed. The church was renovated in postwar periods. The Church of
St. George was the first of the Croatian targets during WW II. The
church doors were sealed by Croat special police on august 15, 1991 and
the parish priest was prohibited from moving about without a police
permit. The majority of the Serbian population was cleansed by the
Croatian National Guard, ‘Black Shirts’ led by Stojan Sustin, a CDU
activist who harassed and eliminated many Serbs. Most fled. Nearly all
of the Serbian homes in the area were dynamited while this area was
supposedly under UNPROFOR protection. The Croats used 16,000 National
Guard troops, 100 artillery weapons and 36 tanks, raiding 20 Serbian
settlements and villages. Nearly 1,200 Serbs fled to Belgrade as
refugees.

IMOTSKI
Dalmatia Diocese. The Serbian Orthodox Church of the Dormition of the
Most Holy Virgin was built in 1720 and renovated in 1884. On October 9,
1991, Croatian militia bombed the church. The roof collapsed and the
walls cracked. The main doors were blown off, stone floor slabs flew
out of their positions and the windows fell out. The iconostasis and
other church furnishings were destroyed.

JAGODNJA
Dalmatia Diocese. The Serbian Orthodox Church of St. Simeon the Stylite
was built in the 18th century and renovated in 1869. During WW II, the
church was partially damaged and the register book and church objects
were damaged. In 1991, the church facade was bombed and damaged. The
extend of interior damage can not be verified at this time.

KABO KOD BOLCA
Zagreb-Ljubljana Diocese. The Serbian Orthodox Church of St. Nicholas
dates from the end of the 18th century and was recently renovated. In
12991, the facade was bombed and damaged with machine-gun fire. There
is no reliable data regarding other damage at this time. The church is
under the control of Croatian forces.

KARLOVAC
Located along the Korana River, southwest of Zagreb. In the fall of
1990, while the body of His Grace Bishop Simeon lay in state, the
diocesan residence was ransacked several times by Croatian mobs. The
church flag at haft mast was ripped from the flagpole and burned in the
town center. The Serbian clergy was abused. The walls of the St.
Nicholas Church were defaced with profanity. The old church and the
Serbian cathedral were vandalized. The international Red Cross
established a transit center for refugees in this church structure, but
current data about its condition are unavailable. The Karlovac Diocese
Treasury contains icons, books and valuables that were removed from the
Orthodox churches in this diocese during the Second World War. They
were returned to the Serbian Orthodox Church in 1982 by the Vatican and
were displayed in the Serbian Diocese Museum. A large collection of
portraits of Gornji Karlovac Serbian Orthodox bishops is kept in the
diocese residence. In 1991, Croatian militia forces broke into the
diocese residence taking these treasures to an unknown location. The
Serbian Orthodox Church of St. Nicholas Cathedral was built in 1785 by
Karlovac master builder Josip Stiler. The icons were painted by
Arsenije Teodorovic, the most prominent Serbian classicist painter.
Dragutin Inkiostri Medenjak decorated the walls. In 1991, the church
was lightly damaged during war maneuvers. However, on January 6th,
1992, on Eastern orthodox Christmas eve, an explosion destroyed the
church and all of its contents.

KONJIC
Bosnia-Herzegovina in the north end of the Neretva River valley. Muslim
detention camp in the athletic arena and military camp. On June 15,
1992, 13 Serbs were killed while being detained. They are: Velimir
Cecez, Vlado Cecez, Milos Cecez, Dusan Cecez, Pero Cecez, Mirko Cecez,
Predrag Kuljanin, Tihomir Kuljanin, Rade Ninkovic, Mirko Ninkovic, Stevo
Ninkovic, Novica Zivak and Zeljko Cecez. As the most insulting cultural
genocide that can be perpetrated against the Serbs, the Serbian
Orthodox Church in Konjic was converted into a public toilet.

KONJEVRATE
Dalmatia Diocese. The Serbian Orthodox Church of St. Dimitrius was
built in 1864. In 1991 the church was shelled during military
maneuvers, but the extent of the damage can not be verified.

KOPRIVNA
The Serbian Orthodox Church of the Birth of the Most Holy Virgin was one
of the oldest preserved Serbian Orthodox churches in the Osjecko Polje
Diocese. It was built in the Middle Ages and renovated in 1757. during
WW II, the church was converted into a Roman Catholic Church. At the
time, the iconostasis was destroyed, but the local people saved some of
the individual icons. IN the postwar period the church was returned to
the Serbian Orthodox people. However, many of the icons remain at the
Vatican. In 1991, the church was almost completely destroyed along with
all of its furnishings.

KOPRIVNICA
In the Zagreb-Ljubljana Diocese. The Serbian Orthodox Church of the
Holy Trinity was approved for construction on June 24, 1791 and it took
three years to build. It was dedicated on May 16, 1795. The
iconostasis had 30 icons and dates from the time of the Serbian Orthodox
bishop Kiril Zivkovic and was positioned in 1810. The wood carving was
done by Joakim Djakovic. The church was renovated in 1938. During WW
II, the Ustashi damaged the church which was restored in postwar years.
In 1991, the church was again damaged outside of war maneuvers and was
looted.

KOSTANJNICA
Gornji Karlovac Diocese. The Serbian Orthodox Church of Sts Gabriel and
Michael the Archangels was the old cathedral of the former Kostajnica
bishopric built in 1743. It was a representative Baroque structure and
its iconostasis was painted by Ukrainian master, Vasilije Romanovic in
1759. The church was almost completely destroyed in WWII however, some
sections of the old iconostasis were preserved. A new church was built
after the war and the remaining pieces of icons by Vasilije Romanovic
were placed in the church. The remaining sections of icons are among
the most valuable cultural-artistic documents of the Serbian Baroque
period. In 1991, the northwestern side of the church was shelled by the
Croats and the blast damaged these valuable pieces of art.

KUKUNJEVAC
The Serbian Orthodox Church of St. Paraskevi was built in 1782 on the
foundation of an older wooden church. The iconostasis was painted in
1896. During WW II, the church was completely burned to the ground with
700 Serbs inside. The church was rebuild along with a memorial center
commemorating the genocide of the Serbs. On October 9, 1991, the
Croatian militia bombed the church and memorial center completely
destroying these structures.

LOVSKA
The Serbian Orthodox Church of Theodore of Tyron was constructed in 1786
and the iconostasis was painted in 1842. In WW II, the church was
damaged and all the ceremonial items, books and archives were
destroyed. The church was rebuilt in postwar periods. In 1991, the
Croatian militia did considerable damage to the church, bombing it
outside of any war maneuvers.

MALI ZDENCI
The Serbian Orthodox Church of the Birth of the Most Holy Virgin was
build with logs and renovated in 1761. In 1942, the church was
partially demolished and most of the church furnishings looted. After
the war, the church was restored and belonged to a list of first
category of landmarks. In 1991, the church was again damaged outside of
any war maneuvers. On October 5, 12991, it was broken into and
demolished. Icons that survived WW II were removed from the iconostasis
and confiscated. The icons destroyed include Christ on the Throne,
painted in 1745, and two smaller icons, the Virgin and Child and one of
Jesus Christ.

MARKUSICA
The Serbian church of the Descent of the Holy Spirit was built in 1810.
A monumental single-nave structure with a tall belfry was in the spirit
of classicism. The iconostasis was painted between 1775 and 1777,
ascribed to painter Jovan Isjlovic the Elder. The church was converted
to a Roman Catholic Church during the war and the iconostasis was
dismantled. The icons in the choir loft remained. The rest of the
church furnishings were preserved and returned to the Serbs after the
war. In 1991, the church was hit by several shells and the tower was
showered with machine gun fire. The facade was destroyed along with the
priceless stained glass windows.

MEDARI
The Serbian Orthodox Church of the Transfiguration of the Lord was built
in 1777 and restored in 1834, it was a Baroque structure and was
considered the prettiest parish church in the Pakrac area. During WW
II, the Ustashas set fire to the interior damaging most of the
furnishings. Only a small number of icons were saved. The church was
restored in postwar years. In 1991, Croatian militia struck the church
with several shells, and the northern wall of the naos was damaged and
the bell tower was destroyed. The interior of the church was demolished
with knives and axes.

MOSTAR
In addition to cleansing 30,000 Serbs from Mostar in 1992, more than
4,000 Serbs were killed or listed as missing. The first victim in
Mostar was the Serbian Orthodox Cathedral of the Holy Trinity, it was
considered one of the most significant Orthodox structures in the
region. It was listed an international historical monument and its
altar was the tallest in the Balkans, a gift from the Russian Czar,
Alexander III. The church of the Virgin Mary, rebuilt in 1833 after it
was destroyed by the Turks was this time destroyed by Muslims and Croats
in 1992. The Mostar bridge built by Suleiman the Magnificent in 1557
was the last historical monument destroyed by the Croats in Mostar.

MUNJAVA
The Serbian Orthodox Church of Sts. Michael and Gabriel the Archangels
was built in 1838. It was completely destroyed in WW II and was rebuilt
in postwar years. In 1991, the Croatian militia bombed the church and
again severely damaged the church.

NARTA
The Serbian Orthodox Church dedicated to St. George the Martyr was
constructed in 1694 and was renovated in 1781. The iconostasis dates to
1839. It is listed as a first-class world monument. In 1991, the
church was damaged along with the parish center but the extent of
damage cannot be verify as this property is in the hands of the Croatian
militia.

NOVA GRADISKA
The Serbian Orthodox Church of the Holy Trinity was built in 1736 and
renovated in 1824 and again in 1885. On July 7, 1941 the church was
burned and the remaining structure was declared unfit and ordered razed
by the Ustashi government. Serbs interned in the Ustashi camp, Stara
Gradiska, were brought to demolish what remained of the church as a way
of demoralizing the Serbs. The iconostasis, dating from 1814, according
to archive material, was painted by Italian masters and was destroyed
along with most of the ceremonial objects. A new church was built in
1982, designed by architect Dragomir Tadic and was dedicated on October
3rd of that same year. The archives, old books and a small number of
icons that survived the destruction in WW II were being kept in the
bishopric residence. The clergy was forced to abandon their residence
in 1991 thus the fate of the cultural movable objects is unknown.

PAKRAC
The Serbian Orthodox Cathedral and Bishop’s residence was totally
destroyed in 1991. The Bishop’s resident was originally built in 1732
on the site of an earlier wooden residence. The residence contained a
chapel, the iconostasis of which displayed a true little gallery of
Serbian 18th century art work. The salons displayed a gallery of
portraits of Serbian Orthodox Bishop Stefanovic, who was head of the
diocese from 1721-1743. some of these portraits were painted by the
post prominent Serbian artists; the portrait of Josif Javanovic
Sakabenta was the work of Teodor Ilic Cesljar, and the monumental
portrait of Serbian Orthodox Bishop Kiril Zivkovic was painted by
Arsenije Teodorovic. The residence was declared a landmark of the
highest category. In March, 1991, all the priests were driven out. The
bishop was mistreated by Croat special police and made to stand naked in
public. He was then forced to move to a parish house in Slavanska
Pozega. Executives of the secondary school took over the church lands
for their own use. On April 23, 12991, the Orthodox Religious book
store was destroyed by Croats. Over 4,000 Serbian refugees fled to
Belgrade when the residence of the diocese and the Cathedral church and
seminary were shelled by Croat forces. A machine gun nest was installed
inside the residence by Croat forces.

The Serbian Cathedral in Pakrac was built in 1757 and completed in 1769
during the time of Bishop Arsenije Radivojevic. The church was
renovated several times, but the most important renovation was carried
out by Herman Bole in 1898 in the spirit of eclecticism which was
prominent at the time. A new iconostasis and other furnishings were
also placed in the church at the time of this renovation. during the
Second World War, the Ustashi broke into the church and stole valuable
ceremonial equipment and destroyed books and the archives. The interior
of the church was set on fire on September 28, 1991. The iconostasis,
icons, furnishings, were all burned by Croatian militia.

The chapel of the Birth of the Most Holy Virgin in Pakrac was built in
1672. Bishop Petronije Ljubibratic built the old wooden structure and
he was buried in it and since that time it has served as the mausoleum
of the Slavonian Serbian Orthodox Bishops. The church was renovated in
sturdier material by Slovenian Bishop Gavrilo Popovic (1715-1716) and
was nicknamed Gavrinica after him. During WW II, the facade was damaged
and the interior was considerably demolished. the majority of the old
icons were destroyed and only the throne Icons were saved. On September
28, 1991, on the same night that the Cathedral church was burned the
Croatian militia destroyed this chapel, including all the church
furnishings. The iconostasis was preserved, although several icons were
ruined.

The Seminary building in Pakrac, built in 1850 which operated from 1809
to 1871. After this time it was used by the Serbian Teachers’ College.
It is a one-story building in classicist style located next to the
Serbian Cathedral. On the evening of September 28, 1991, the Croatian
militia burned the structure to the ground.

The Serbian Orthodox Church of Sts. Peter and Paul was built in the
mid-18th century. It was dedicated on May 12, 1752 by the Pakrac bishop
Sofronije Jovanovic. The church was razed to the ground by the Ustashi
in 19042. At that time, the iconostasis and church furnishings were
completely destroyed. A church dedicated to St. Dimitrius was rebuilt
from this foundation in 1969. In 1991, the church was severely damaged
and the parish center was completely destroyed.

Croatian HVO, aided and abetted by 15 retired American generals,
attacked Okucani and Pakrac on May 1st and 2nd, 1995, in which 4,000
Serbians were brutally exterminated. Like the Vietnam War, this was
another My Lai and American fingerprints were all over this atrocity.
The Holy Synod of Bishops of the Serbian Orthodox Church released a
document on May 19, 1995, signed by Patriarch Pavle. In this document
the Patriarch disclosed that the Diocese of Slavonia which existed
without interruption since the 16th century, met with final
destruction—the bishop now in exile, his clergy without a single
parish. The document also disclosed that Fr. Sava Pocuca, a Serbian
Orthodox priest, fled in an automobile with a Serbian mother and her 4
children. The children were dragged out of the car by the Croat
military and their throats slashed, before the mother was then shot.
Fr. Pocuca was sprayed with 7 bullets when he tried to intercede, he was
left for dead. He spent months in the Banja Luka hospital in critical
condition. He is not just a survivor, he is a witness. He has given a
statement indicating that hundreds of Serbs were dragged from their cars
and off of their wagons and trucks and butchered like animals. He said
it is an appalling lie for the media to report that these Serbs were
killed because they were caught in ‘cross fire.’

The document by the Holy Synod of Bishops indicates that on May 11th,
1995, Fr. Lazo Dejanac, a Serbian Orthodox priest who escaped to the
Bosnian Krajina, died of a heart attack because of the hardship he
endured. Fr. Dejanac said he witnessed appalling atrocities of
decapitation, and brutal slaughter. The nuns of the Monastery of St.
Ann were expelled and the monastery was looted. Based on the
testimonies of hundreds of witnesses who managed to escape, the Synod of
Bishops believe that the number of dead was 5,000. The corpses of these
victims were disposed of by cremation, their bloody traces were cleansed
before officials of UNPROFOR and other international humanitarian
organizations were allowed access to the sites of the crimes. One
witness appeared on Belgrade television Studio B and displayed
photographs showing Croatian tanks running over the bodies of women and
children. Robert Fox reported in the Daily Telegraph on May 7th, that:
'While there were no bodies, in Nova Varos, the whiff of decay was
unmistakable despite hasty attempts to expunge it with disinfectant.'

A document released by Helsinki Watch, corroborates that 1,100 wounded
Serb soldiers were murdered by the Croats. There were no injured
Serbians in Croatian hospitals. Helsinki Watch discovered the mass
grave of these 1,100 Serbian soldiers and believe that the mass grave
contains the bodies of the 450 victims that the Croats admit to
killing. At a time when the Croats were telling the international press
that Serbs were being treated in a humane manner, it appears that they
were in the process of cleansing more than 10,000 Serbs from the
Slavonia region, destroying more than 150 Serbian villages in their
wake.

This posting unfortunately could go on and on endlessly until all 96
Serbian churches destroyed in Croatia in 1991 are cited. These churches
were destroyed before a single person lost their lives in Bosnia, yet no
one lifted a single voice to support the Serbs. When the war started in
Bosnia the cultural genocide continued until more than 120 more Serbian
churches were destroyed. THE TOTAL OF SERBIAN
CHURCHES IS NOW 213. Not a single newspaper in the west reported on the
destruction of these Christian houses of worship! This is to Barry
Marjanovich benefit that the world has been kept ignorant, allowing
Mr. Marjanovich to spew his hatred unchallenged.

The one thing that is quite apparent in reading this document, there was
a repetitive nature of this cultural genocide against the Serbs. Serbs
have rebuilt some of these churches three times in the last century only
to see them destroyed yet again.

There are those who post on this net who insist that this war is about
aggression, an arrogant term meant to demonize the Serbs who were also
born on the soil that they defend. There are those who insist that this
war is about the political rights to self determination, but the simple
fact that Serbs are denied the same right makes this argument spurious.
But the real foundation of this war was and is about religious
domination and forced conversion, by destroying churches and mosques, if
necessary. The Serbs know about this kind of religious intolerance,
they know, too, about forced conversion, or conversion obtained through
special political favors, they suffered under 500 years of that kind of
oppression. Serbs also remember the term 'convert or die' and many did.

Compiled by the staff of the Serbian American Voters Alliance,
Pittsburgh. Posted by Wm. Dorich, President of SAVA.

[Barry S. Marjanovich]

On Tue, 25 Feb 1997 sa...@mail.idt.net (SLOBo's SERVant) wrote:

sssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss
Karadzic, Mladic & SERVIA Wanted For War Crimes
sssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss

The Times, July 12, 1996:

Arrest of two war leaders ordered
sssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss
BY BEN MACINTYRE

THE Bosnian war crimes tribunal at The Hague yesterday issued
international arrest warrants for Radovan Karadzic and Ratko Mladic,
making the Bosnian Serb leaders international fugitives from justice,
and possibly opening the way for a commando operation to capture them.

The World Court also ruled it had jurisdiction to hear charges,
brought by Bosnia, that Serbia was the driving force behind the war.
It is the first time a nation has been charged with genocide before the
UN court. "We will have a chance to show that what happened in Bosnia
was not the act of a few men," Bosnia's UN ambassador, Mohamed
Sacirbey, said yesterday.

The arrest warrants issued by Claude Jorda, the tribunal judge, a year
after the men were first indicted means they can be arrested in any UN
member country.

The move will renew pressure on the major powers to bring about the
capture of the Bosnian Serb leader and his military commander.

Senior Western diplomats meeting in London on Wednesday agreed jointly
that the "right place for Dr Karadzic is The Hague". The option of a
military "snatch" operation to bring the men to trial has been
discussed in Washington.

Hearings into the genocide indictment ended last Monday, after a
succession of witnesses described the horror of the "ethnic cleansing"
campaign. Prosecutors accused the Bosnian Serb leaders of planning and
co-ordinating it, and one witness alleged General Mladic witnessed
mass executions of Muslims.

"The question is what people will do with these arrest warrants," Mr
Sacirbey said. "Neither the living nor the dead have justice now."

Any hope Dr Karadzic and General Mladic may have had of heading into
comfortable exile have evaporated, as any country sheltering them
would lay itself open to the full wrath of the international
community.
STOP
ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssCCCCssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss
EVIL

[Robert Kaplan]

Barry S. Marjanovich wrote:
>
> On Tue, 25 Feb 1997 sa...@mail.idt.net (SLOBo's SERVant) wrote:
>
> sssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss
> Karadzic, Mladic & SERVIA Wanted For War Crimes
> sssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss
>
> The Times, July 12, 1996:
>
> Arrest of two war leaders ordered
> sssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss
> BY BEN MACINTYRE
>
> THE Bosnian war crimes tribunal at The Hague yesterday issued
> international arrest warrants for Radovan Karadzic and Ratko Mladic,
> making the Bosnian Serb leaders international fugitives from justice,
> and possibly opening the way for a commando operation to capture them.
>
> The World Court also ruled it had jurisdiction to hear charges,
> brought by Bosnia, that Serbia was the driving force behind the war.

Interesting, meanwhile:

1) The muslims are arming themselves (with the assistance of the US and
Iran) and are openly admitting that they will seek revenge.

2) According to today's New York Times, the people that had been
"brutally murdered" by Serbs - which Serbs were tried and convicted by
an "impartial" muslim court in Sarajevo, were found alive and farming
not far from the capital.

We'll soon see the mulsim hordes running all over the former Yugoslavia,
extracting "revenge". And the Western world will say "I'm sorry, we're
tired of Bosnia" and do nothing.

[Michael Sells]

If there is no justice, there will be revenge. This is a law of all human
societies. So, better to have justice and support the international
Tribunal. The Tribunal helps identify those accountable for specific
crimes, and it vindicates those who are innocent. It focuses guilt on
individuals and criminal groups, and away from entire peoples and
nationalities.

As for your hatred of Muslims and your deep seated prejudices, there is
nothing any court can do about that. That is a disease in your heart,
your soul, and your mind. Bigotry of the kind you expressed above is a
symptom of:

Hate in the heart. Shit in the brain.

Try to get yourself cleaned out.

Mike

[Robert Kaplan]

Where did you get this law? From the Koran? Who decides on justice?
Where will it all end?

As far as the Muslims are concerned, the only "justice" will be the
extermination of the Serbs. My example of muslim "justice" should
suffice.

> So, better to have justice and support the international
> Tribunal. The Tribunal helps identify those accountable for specific
> crimes, and it vindicates those who are innocent. It focuses guilt on
> individuals and criminal groups, and away from entire peoples and
> nationalities.

Yeah, tell that to the 120,000 Serbs expelled from Croatia. Justice in
Yugoslavia only works for those aligned with the US.

>
> As for your hatred of Muslims and your deep seated prejudices, there is
> nothing any court can do about that. That is a disease in your heart,
> your soul, and your mind. Bigotry of the kind you expressed above is a
> symptom of:
>
> Hate in the heart. Shit in the brain.
>
> Try to get yourself cleaned out.
>

I don't have a "hatred of muslims". As a matter of fact, I am very
fascinated by Muslim culture and art, and am a strong supporter of
Palestinian rights. I do know, though, that there is no way modern
westerners can live under the oppression of most Muslim states. I just
face reality, instead of dreaming about international tribunals fixing
human nature.

Why do you think Europe is so apprehensive about letting Turkey in?
Would you like to live in ANY Muslim state?

Go live in Algeria and, after they shoot you, we'll get an international
tribunal to do justice.

Go live in Syria.

Go live in Irak.

If that's the way the Muslims want to live, under oppressive theocracies
(or religious thugs, or simply thugs), fine with me. But neither the
Serbs nor any other non-muslims should be expected to become second
class citizens in such a state.

This has always been the issue in Bosnia. My concern is that, now that
we have armed the Muslims, they will run amok, and we'll deny all
responsibility, since the victimized Serbs are "bad people" (it is not
the first time the US has armed thugs and then walked away - see
Taliban, Angola, Central America, etc.)

BTW: "we" above refers to the United States.

[Vanja]

In article <33185D...@iamerica.net>, rka...@iamerica.net wrote:

> Interesting, meanwhile:
>
> 1) The muslims are arming themselves (with the assistance of the US and
> Iran) and are openly admitting that they will seek revenge.
>
> 2) According to today's New York Times, the people that had been
> "brutally murdered" by Serbs - which Serbs were tried and convicted by
> an "impartial" muslim court in Sarajevo, were found alive and farming
> not far from the capital.
>
> We'll soon see the mulsim hordes running all over the former Yugoslavia,
> extracting "revenge". And the Western world will say "I'm sorry, we're
> tired of Bosnia" and do nothing.

Mr. Kaplan,

as a student of political science, I must say that everything you have
offered thus far is the poorest political analysis I have ever seen. Your
knowledge of the region and the people is about as my knowledge of Chile -
I know where it is on map, and that's about it. I cannot believe that
anyone would invite you to speak on their TV shows, to "explain" the
situation in the Balkans, or take your "Balkan Ghosts" seriously...
Teachers use it today in classes to show what "Balkanism" is.. To show how
prejudices, coming from ignorance, form a certain belief. While there is a
serious legal, political and humanitarian problem going on, you are
chasing ghosts centuries old!!

As a Bosnian, and as a Bosnian Muslim, I want to ask why you have shown so
much hatred and prejudice toward my people? Have we not suffered enough?
Has not enough injustice been inflicted upon us? We are only a people who
wanted to quitely get our rights, something that was denied to us for
centuries. We did not want the war; it was forced upon us. And you are
still looking at us with prejudice, and keep a blind eye on those who did
all those crimes? Where is your sense for justice? Where is your sense for
humanity? I hoped we left people like you in the books of Joseph Conrad. I
hoped we rose above those petty racial and ethnic prejudices.. How wrong
was I...

vanja filipovic
haverford college, pa.

--
http://www.students.haverford.edu/vfilipov

[Michael Sells]

In article <3318C6...@iamerica.net>, rka...@iamerica.net wrote:

I wrote in response to Kaplan's criticism of a trial by the Bosnian government:

>
> > So, better to have justice and support the international
> > Tribunal. The Tribunal helps identify those accountable for specific
> > crimes, and it vindicates those who are innocent. It focuses guilt on
> > individuals and criminal groups, and away from entire peoples and
> > nationalities.
>
> Yeah, tell that to the 120,000 Serbs expelled from Croatia. Justice in
> Yugoslavia only works for those aligned with the US.

As an American of Serbian descent whose Serb relatives from Krajina are
among the missing, I have nothing but contempt for your pseudo-sympathy
for this population of Serbian people, betrayed by General Ratko Mladic
and his boss Slobodan Milosevic who reniged on their agreement to help
Krajina Serbs if they were attacked, and who were then abused both by the
Croatian army and by Milosevic goons such as Arkan. The Tribunal is
actively investigating these crimes.

> >
> > As for your hatred of Muslims and your deep seated prejudices, there is
> > nothing any court can do about that. That is a disease in your heart,
> > your soul, and your mind. Bigotry of the kind you expressed above is a
> > symptom of:
> >
> > Hate in the heart. Shit in the brain.
> >
> > Try to get yourself cleaned out.
> >
>
> I don't have a "hatred of muslims". As a matter of fact, I am very
> fascinated by Muslim culture and art, and am a strong supporter of
> Palestinian rights.

Sure you are "fascinated by Muslim culture and art." Just like the KKK
boys say some of their "best friends" are blacks! The ugly stereotypes
and nauseating prejudice you exhibited in your message are clear to all.
You can deny it all you want but you are only denying your own face in the
mirror.

As for Palestinians, some are Muslim, some are Christian. The last thing
Palestinians or Israelis need is an ignorant bigot like you making policy
statements about their difficulties.

I do know, though, that there is no way modern
> westerners can live under the oppression of most Muslim states. I just
> face reality, instead of dreaming about international tribunals fixing
> human nature.
>
> Why do you think Europe is so apprehensive about letting Turkey in?
> Would you like to live in ANY Muslim state?

I lived for four years in North Africa, three years in Tunisia and one
year in Egypt. I met generosity, gentility, culture, and openness. I
found that Muslims are like any other human beings from any religion. You
should try living among some Muslims and try getting to know them as human
beings. Then you won't embarrass yourself so miserably.

>
> Go live in Algeria and, after they shoot you, we'll get an international
> tribunal to do justice.
>
> Go live in Syria.
>
> Go live in Irak.
>
> If that's the way the Muslims want to live, under oppressive theocracies
> (or religious thugs, or simply thugs), fine with me. But neither the
> Serbs nor any other non-muslims should be expected to become second
> class citizens in such a state.

I could say similar things to you: "Go live in Christian Guatemala, where
the Christian dominated military has been exterminating Mayan Indians
since the CIA-backed coup in 1954. Go live in El Salvador. Go live in
Rwanda where Christian priests took part in the organized extermination of
Tutsis. Go live in Zaire. Go live in Serbia, where Christian backed
militias of Seselj, Arkan, and Bokan carried out raids into Bosnia to
commit mass atrocities, and where a trainload of Serbian Muslims
disappeared into oblivion. Go live in Switzerland where good Christians
made millions off of the confiscated wealth of Jewish victims of the
holocaust." Go live in France where a right-wing neo-Nazi named Le Pen is
now a big hero who has recently paid a visit to his Serb neo-Nazi ally
Seselj.

You name a list of countries from the Islamic world with bad human rights
records. One can name countries from the Christian world with bad human
rights records. Simply naming a list of countries with bad human rights
records is one of the most miserable excuses for analysis I have ever
seen.

You are a bigot and a hater of a very crude intellectual formation.

Mike

By the Way, Vanja assumed you were the Robert Kaplan that authored the
book Balkan Ghosts. I doubt it. There are a lot of Robert Kaplans in the
world, and there just might be a simple coincidence that two men named
Robert Kaplan have such ignorant, pathetic stereotypes about Islam and the
Muslim people and are willing to justify the atrocities perpetrated
against Bosnian Muslims in the name of such stereotypes.

[PCF]

>Barry S. Marjanovich wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, 25 Feb 1997 sa...@mail.idt.net (SLOBo's SERVant) wrote:
>>
>> sssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss
>> Karadzic, Mladic & SERVIA Wanted For War Crimes
>> sssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss
>>
>> The Times, July 12, 1996:
>>
>> Arrest of two war leaders ordered
>> sssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss
>> BY BEN MACINTYRE
>>
>> THE Bosnian war crimes tribunal at The Hague yesterday issued
>> international arrest warrants for Radovan Karadzic and Ratko Mladic,
>> making the Bosnian Serb leaders international fugitives from justice,
>> and possibly opening the way for a commando operation to capture them.
>>
>> The World Court also ruled it had jurisdiction to hear charges,
>> brought by Bosnia, that Serbia was the driving force behind the war.
>

>Interesting, meanwhile:
>
>1) The muslims are arming themselves (with the assistance of the US and
>Iran) and are openly admitting that they will seek revenge.
>

except one muslim conversed to roman catholic church: Mr. Beduino. He is the
most important terrorist of the south hemisphere.

>2) According to today's New York Times, the people that had been
>"brutally murdered" by Serbs - which Serbs were tried and convicted by
>an "impartial" muslim court in Sarajevo, were found alive and farming
>not far from the capital.
>
>We'll soon see the mulsim hordes running all over the former Yugoslavia,
>extracting "revenge". And the Western world will say "I'm sorry, we're
>tired of Bosnia" and do nothing.
>

--
Carlos Poli
En Quilmes

"Político es quien reparte; Estadista es quien reparte con
justicia; Jurista es quien a sabiendas reparte con justicia:
Por ello, las comunidades no funcionarán mientras que los
reyes no sean juristas, ni los juristas reyes"

[Miro STROMAR]

Robert Kaplan wrote:
>
> If that's the way the Muslims want to live, under oppressive theocracies
> (or religious thugs, or simply thugs),

And how many US troops are currently providing Chicago style protection
to _the real thugs_ i.e. emirs, sultans e.t.c. in exchange for
"reasonalbly priced" oil?

Did you mention the principal beneficiarry of the thug arming, the state
of Israel?

> This has always been the issue in Bosnia.

Always? Never say always!

> responsibility, since the victimized Serbs are "bad people" (it is not

you meant: "victimized Serbs", are bad people?

> BTW: "we" above refers to the United States.

I wonder how influential you might be to say WE. US and us differ a
little!

===============================================================
Miro STROMAR, Calgary Alberta, CANADA
______| http://www.cadvision.com/crestest/main.htm
o/______\o e-mail: cres...@cadvision.com
(Oo=00=oO) Faxphone: 403.253.5695 Office: 403.266.4141
[]=****=[] Cellular: 403.607.8845
===============================================================

[Viktor Arevalo]

>By the Way, Vanja assumed you were the Robert Kaplan that authored the
>book Balkan Ghosts. I doubt it.

It's of course the same guy this Kaplan. I know him since he was a child. He's
written a lot of books about Islam and is writing a new one about Islamic
atrocities in Bosnia.

Best regards

Viktor Arevalo

[Michael Sells]

In a recent thread, someone identifying himself as "Robert Kaplan" let
loose a stream of the crudest anti-Muslim hatred and bigotry to justify
the atrocities against Bosnian Muslims systematically carried out by
Serbian and Croat militias.

When this Kaplan's bigotry was exposed, the question came up whether this
was the same Robert Kaplan that wrote the sensationalized howler known as
Balkan Ghosts, a book that portrays all the peoples of the Balkans as
subhuman age old killers fated by genetics or history (or some combination
of the two) to a low-level subhuman live of mass-murder.

Now this question has become quite intriguing.

Dear Viktor,

If what you say is the case, you are breaking some very interesting news.
Any further information you could offer would be quite important.

As I'm sure you are aware, Kaplan's Balkan Ghosts was cited by Elizabeth
Drew in her book on Clinton as one of the major reasons for the Clinton
administration's failure to keep its 1992 campaign pledge and oppose
aggression and genocide in Bosnia. According to Drew, Clinton, Hilary
Clinton, and Colin Powell, all were influenced by Kaplan's crude
stereotypes of Balkan peoples as age old subhuman tribal killers that
nothing could stop from engaging in slaughter.

To imagine what Kaplan's book is like, imagine someone coming to the U.S.,
interviewing the Christian Identity militias, the Jewish Defense league,
the most radical followers of The Nation of Islam, and presenting that and
only that as American culture! Yes, there would be truth in the
portrayal, but all lies must have some truth in them to be believed. It
is in the distortion of perspective, the choosing of certain elements out
of all perspective that creates the stereotype.

Kaplan's infantile stereotype gave NATO and the West a pretext to keep the
arms embargo on the victims and to stand by and watch as the extremist
nationalists built concentration camps, rape camps, leveled entire
historic districts, burned libraries, museums, bridges, mosques, churches,
cemeteries, manuscript collections (how Kaplan can imagine the age-old
tribal killers he creates building libraries or using them is hard to
imagine) and engaged in mass killing.

It led directly to the shame of Srebrenica, a shame neither the Christian
nor the Islamic world has yet begun to understand.

So if this is the same Robert Kaplan, and you know of a new book he is
supposedly writing, please let us know any interesting details. This is a
man who had an influence on history, for the worse, that will live with us
and our children, and our grandchildren.

This is a man whose hatred and ignorance resonated in high places and was
one factor (among many others of course) that led to great tragedy, a
tragedy that will live in the heart of Europe for decades, if not
centuries.

Michael Sells

[Viktor Arevalo]

>Now this question has become quite intriguing.

Not so intriguing. This R. Kaplan is of course the famous researcher about
Islam that influenced Clinton and Hillary.

Recently I read an article of Mr. Kaplan in German about ritual cannibalism in
the Islamic Republic of Iran. Well documented, indeed.

Best regards

Viktor Arevalo

[Michael Sells]

Viktor, Would you kindly provide the source for the German article about
ritual cannibalism in the Islamic Republic of Iran? The name, issue, and
date of the journal, title of the article, and page numbers?

If Bosnian Muslims, who had little to do with Iran (Until the insane
Western Arms embargo forced them to take some Iranian weapons and fighters
in order to survive) are to be exterminated for the faults of Iranians as
perceived by Mr. Kaplan, it would be very interested at least to know for
what reasons the West allowed them to be put into rape-camps,
concentration camps, and extermination centers.

Mike

Mike

[Vanja]

In article <3318C6...@iamerica.net>, rka...@iamerica.net wrote:

> Where did you get this law? From the Koran? Who decides on justice?
> Where will it all end?
>
> As far as the Muslims are concerned, the only "justice" will be the
> extermination of the Serbs. My example of muslim "justice" should
> suffice.

That is not true at all, Mr. Kaplan. First of all you do not distinguish
between the Muslims and Bosniaks. Second thing, you do not distinguish
between the Bosnian Muslims and Muslims anywhere else in the world.

> I don't have a "hatred of muslims". As a matter of fact, I am very
> fascinated by Muslim culture and art, and am a strong supporter of

> Palestinian rights. I do know, though, that there is no way modern

> westerners can live under the oppression of most Muslim states. I just
> face reality, instead of dreaming about international tribunals fixing
> human nature.

Oppression of the Muslims states? Are you kidding me? Take a look into the
history of Western Europe, and you will find religious persecutions of
non-Christians in every part. If you would take time and a bit of effort
you would find a lot of those prejudices and intoleration toward Muslims
here in the United States.
And as for the Tribunal, would you just accept reality after World War 2,
and let nazi genocidial maniacs just walk away? Is seeking justice just
dreaming? Mr. Kaplan, I thought thus far that your way of thinking just
comes out of your general lack of knowledge (much like your gross
oversimplifications and stereotypes), but i see now that there is another
dimension to it. You don't care about justice and about people, because
that's not "facing the reality."

> Why do you think Europe is so apprehensive about letting Turkey in?
> Would you like to live in ANY Muslim state?
>

> Go live in Algeria and, after they shoot you, we'll get an international
> tribunal to do justice.
>
> Go live in Syria.
>
> Go live in Irak.
>

> If that's the way the Muslims want to live, under oppressive theocracies

> (or religious thugs, or simply thugs), fine with me. But neither the
> Serbs nor any other non-muslims should be expected to become second
> class citizens in such a state.

The way Bosnian Muslims wanted to live was to live in peace with everyone
else. That was denied to them. They were to live like Albanians in Kosovo,
or not to live at all. Since we (Bosniaks) refused to live under Serbian
hegemony we were set for extermination. And you say "let's do nothing
about it, it's just the way it is." When everything settles down in
Bosnia, I will invite you to come spend a week with us, so I can show you
how wrong you were.

> This has always been the issue in Bosnia. My concern is that, now that
> we have armed the Muslims, they will run amok, and we'll deny all

> responsibility, since the victimized Serbs are "bad people" (it is not

> the first time the US has armed thugs and then walked away - see
> Taliban, Angola, Central America, etc.)

Run amok? Bosnian Muslims do not systematically kill all non-Muslims nor
they systematically burn every church, every house that belong to a
non-Muslim. We ar enot thugs, we are people who were denied a right for a
self-defense. You are partially responsible for toll of over 200,000 dead
Bosnians. YOu. Mr. Kaplan, with your sensless "they're all the same"
rhetoric. But only time will show what you have done. And then I and the
others will be asking you, why?

> BTW: "we" above refers to the United States.

vanja filipovic

--
http://www.students.haverford.edu/vfilipov

[Vanja]

In article <5fapjd$dfj$3...@nntp-1.io.com>, vik...@io.com (Viktor Arevalo) wrote:

> >By the Way, Vanja assumed you were the Robert Kaplan that authored the
> >book Balkan Ghosts. I doubt it.
>

It doesn really matter. it's the same logic, identical logic..
stereotypes, simplifications, ignorance of facts, lack of understanding,
bad analyses... all the same thing..

vanja

--
http://www.students.haverford.edu/vfilipov

[PCF]

>
>>Now this question has become quite intriguing.
>
>Not so intriguing. This R. Kaplan is of course the famous researcher about
>Islam that influenced Clinton and Hillary.
>
>Recently I read an article of Mr. Kaplan in German about ritual cannibalism in
>the Islamic Republic of Iran. Well documented, indeed.
>

No sabía que Pinko escribía en tedesco. Or who is Mr. Kaplan that wrote about
cannibalism?

>Best regards
>
>Viktor Arevalo
>
Best wishes!

[Robert Kaplan]

Viktor Arevalo wrote:
>
> >By the Way, Vanja assumed you were the Robert Kaplan that authored the
> >book Balkan Ghosts. I doubt it.
>

> It's of course the same guy this Kaplan. I know him since he was a child. He's
> written a lot of books about Islam and is writing a new one about Islamic
> atrocities in Bosnia.
>
> Best regards
>
> Viktor Arevalo

Arevalo, termina con estas boludeces, que sino la proxima atrocidad va a
ser contra vos.

Salu2,

Robert

[Denijel Cadra]

Robert Kaplan (rka...@iamerica.net) wrote:
: Michael Sells wrote:
: >
: > In article <33185D...@iamerica.net>, rka...@iamerica.net wrote:
: >

: > > Barry S. Marjanovich wrote:
: > > >
: > > > On Tue, 25 Feb 1997 sa...@mail.idt.net (SLOBo's SERVant) wrote:
: > > >
: > > > sssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss
: > > > Karadzic, Mladic & SERVIA Wanted For War Crimes
: > > > sssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss
: > > >
: > > > The Times, July 12, 1996:
: > > >
: > > > Arrest of two war leaders ordered
: > > > sssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss
: > > > BY BEN MACINTYRE
: > > >
: > > > THE Bosnian war crimes tribunal at The Hague yesterday issued
: > > > international arrest warrants for Radovan Karadzic and Ratko Mladic,
: > > > making the Bosnian Serb leaders international fugitives from justice,
: > > > and possibly opening the way for a commando operation to capture them.
: > > >
: > > > The World Court also ruled it had jurisdiction to hear charges,
: > > > brought by Bosnia, that Serbia was the driving force behind the war.
: > >
: > > Interesting, meanwhile:
: > >
: > > 1) The muslims are arming themselves (with the assistance of the US and
: > > Iran) and are openly admitting that they will seek revenge.

: > >
: > > 2) According to today's New York Times, the people that had been

: > > "brutally murdered" by Serbs - which Serbs were tried and convicted by
: > > an "impartial" muslim court in Sarajevo, were found alive and farming
: > > not far from the capital.
: > >
: > > We'll soon see the mulsim hordes running all over the former Yugoslavia,
: > > extracting "revenge". And the Western world will say "I'm sorry, we're
: > > tired of Bosnia" and do nothing.

: >
: > If there is no justice, there will be revenge. This is a law of all human
: > societies.

: Where did you get this law? From the Koran? Who decides on justice?

: Where will it all end?

: As far as the Muslims are concerned, the only "justice" will be the
: extermination of the Serbs. My example of muslim "justice" should
: suffice.

: > So, better to have justice and support the international

: > Tribunal. The Tribunal helps identify those accountable for specific
: > crimes, and it vindicates those who are innocent. It focuses guilt on
: > individuals and criminal groups, and away from entire peoples and
: > nationalities.

: Yeah, tell that to the 120,000 Serbs expelled from Croatia. Justice in
: Yugoslavia only works for those aligned with the US.

: >
: > As for your hatred of Muslims and your deep seated prejudices, there is

: > nothing any court can do about that. That is a disease in your heart,
: > your soul, and your mind. Bigotry of the kind you expressed above is a
: > symptom of:
: >
: > Hate in the heart. Shit in the brain.
: >
: > Try to get yourself cleaned out.

: >

: I don't have a "hatred of muslims". As a matter of fact, I am very

: fascinated by Muslim culture and art, and am a strong supporter of
: Palestinian rights. I do know, though, that there is no way modern
: westerners can live under the oppression of most Muslim states. I just
: face reality, instead of dreaming about international tribunals fixing
: human nature.

: Why do you think Europe is so apprehensive about letting Turkey in?

: Would you like to live in ANY Muslim state?

: Go live in Algeria and, after they shoot you, we'll get an international
: tribunal to do justice.

: Go live in Syria.

: Go live in Irak.

: If that's the way the Muslims want to live, under oppressive theocracies
: (or religious thugs, or simply thugs), fine with me. But neither the
: Serbs nor any other non-muslims should be expected to become second
: class citizens in such a state.

: This has always been the issue in Bosnia. My concern is that, now that

: we have armed the Muslims, they will run amok, and we'll deny all
: responsibility, since the victimized Serbs are "bad people" (it is not
: the first time the US has armed thugs and then walked away - see
: Taliban, Angola, Central America, etc.)

: BTW: "we" above refers to the United States.

It is only problem of you and your Serbian nation that you chosed
to belive to your Belgrade and Pale media, which claimed that
Bosnian Muslims wanted islamic state. It is your problem that you
are being stupid enough to belive to Milosevich media.
Remember Milosevich's and Karadjic's propaganda was telling Serbian
people that Bosnian Muslims in Sarajevo were feeding hungry lions
with Serbian children. And also Serbian propaganda was denying
that Bosnian Muslim men were being held in concentration camps despite
the futiges of Bosnian men being held in camps like Manjaca, Omarska
and on and on.

Srbine, stavi prst u uho i porici, ja sta ces, tako je najlakse.

deno

[michael a sells]

Nah, Robert. That's more of your overheated imagination. General Mladic
and Dario Kordic, the atrocity-masters are not a member of this newsgroup.

You should do something about your fantasy life. Always thinking about
subhuman beasts wanting to commit atrocities. Your fantasies of
atrocities, which you then project on to Muslims, are really not healthy.

As I said before, your really should get your bigotry, the hate in your
heart and the shit in your brain, cleaned out.

Mike

[Robert Kaplan]

Interesting that these muslim lovers of democracy con only toss insults
at me, I have "shit in the brain", I am "stupid", but they refuse to
engage in a facts based debate. Could start by naming the muslim
dominated states that are also secular democracies, with respect for
non-muslim minority rights.

Even in so called "secular" states, such as Egypt and Turkey, minorities
are being persecuted. Given this record, it should not be surprising
that the Serbs are aprehensive.

BTW, I live in the USA. I don't follow the Belgrade media, let alone the
Pale media. And I am not a Serb.

What's wrong with the Bosnian Serbs joining Serbia? The Croats joining
Croatia? That would be democratic self determination, right?

If the Bosnian muslims had demonstrated that they are democrats and
liberal and secular, they MIGHT have a legitimate claim to a unified
Bosnia. But this same bunch has already staged mock trials (see above,
cf New York Times, not usually part of the Pale media), they brought in
"freedom fighters" from Afghanistan and terrorist trainers from Iran
(lying to the United Nations about both), and are openly preparing to
get revenge on the Serbs. The government and Army don't even make a
pretense of being secular (see Mostar). They are Muslims first and last,
and, once they gain military control of all of Bosnia, it will become
another Muslim dictatorship.

The "elections" in Bosnia were a sham. Muslims voted muslim, Serbs voted
Serb, Croats voted Croat. What kind of multiethnic state is that? The
way to win elections is not to convince the opposition that you're
better, it is to breed faster. Bosnia is not a state, it is another
aggregation of tribes that hate each other, like some of the states the
europeans set up in Africa.

I'm simply saying that

1. We (the US) should not be arming another muslim bunch. The Afghan
experience should be enough.

2. The Serbs should have a right to self determination, and, if they
want to join Serbia, it's none of our business.

>
> Srbine, stavi prst u uho i porici, ja sta ces, tako je najlakse.
>

Have no idea what this means, I suspect more insults from our democratic
muslimm debaters.

Robert

[Boris Petrov]

HDZ-ovske lopovske stjenice

"VIJENAC"

Proslov

Nije 1947.

Premda zacijelo postoje nacionalisti koji su demokrati,
nacionalizam, ma ciji bio, nije kompatibilan s demokracijom. Zbog
toga mislim da tu ne moze i ne smije biti pomirenja. Ukoliko sebi
zelimo dobro

Sve veliko i lijepo u svijetu, sve sto je proizveo covjek, bez
obzira bila rijec o knjizevnosti ili o starohrvatskim crkvicama
usred nasih polja, o razbijanju atoma ili o Hektorovu izlasku iz
grada, sastoji se od cesto proturjecnih elemenata. Iz toga ljudi
oduvijek zakljucuju da su razne kulture, ma kako i koliko bile
autohtone, vrsta sinteza, zapravo (i jedino pouzdano) hibridi. U
protivnom bile bi nemoguce ili bi, zaustavivsi procese usvajanja,
umirale od sterilnosti. Povijest, doduse, pamti i takve primjere,
ali ono sto je u tim slucajevima zaista umiralo u svojoj
zacahurenosti bio je uvijek i samo neki prosli hibrid: u
kulturoloskom pogledu ljudi nemaju druge sudbine.

Taj truizam, savrseno jasan jos u osamnaestom stoljecu, pojavom
nacionalisticke ideologije gubi svoj kristal: premece se u
negaciju forsiranog jastva nacije. Tome treba dodati da s
romantizmom dolazi do zamjene: imitacija neospornih uzora ustupa
mjesto originalnosti. Ova, sa svoje strane, naglasava iskljucivo
vrijednosti svoga zvonika i, istodobno, smece s uma da samo
Eliotovi prazni ljudi mogu svojatati zvonik na kojem nisu radili.
Rekavsi to, ne nijecem nicije pravo da se divi zvoniku. Naprotiv.
Ali to je nesto drugo. U neku ruku, vracanje truizmu kojim sam
zapoceo.

Kako bilo, nepobitna je istina da je taj nacionalisticki pogled na
svijet (vi ga mozete zvati imperijalizmom, nasim danasnjim
drzavotvorstvom za kucnu uporabu, ili kako hocete) samo u ovom
stoljecu u dva navrata (u nasem slucaju: u tri) unistio gotovo sve
zvonike u Europi, i jos ponesto. Ako, usprkos tome, netko danas
zastupa nacionalisticku frazeologiju u Hrvatskoj ili bilo gdje
drugdje, ne cini nista drugo nego samo dokazuje da je u potpunosti
oslobodjen bilo kakva osjecaja za povijest, opcenito, i povijest
nasega stoljeca, posebno. S tim u svezi, cini mi se da ne bi bilo
ni suvisno ni neopravdano postaviti jednostavno pitanje: tko su ti
ljudi? Osobno ne znam, ali se bojim da bi svaka analiza u
konacnici dala odgovor koji bi, barem u odnosu na slavenske
narode, bio porazan: oni isti (isti mentalni sklop, isti
nepogresivi kljucevi povijesti u dzepu, iste kutije za
razmisljanje) koji su ih u ovom stoljecu vec jednom usrecili.

U svrhu boljeg razumijevanja: po sebi ili kao stanoviti udjel u
svim ideologijama koje su se pojavile od devetnaestog stoljeca
naovamo, nacionalizam je u nekim slucajevima budio i poticao
najgore u drzavi, a u drugima spasavao i nastojao spasiti
najbolje, ili ono sto se spasiti dade. U jednom od tri moguca tipa
nacionalizma proveo sam cijeli zivot, ali nikad nisam povjerovao
ni pomislio da su, recimo, nacionalizmi Treceg svijeta u borbi
protiv kolonijalizma jednaki imperijalistickim nacionalizmima
velikih vojnih blokova. Moja nastojanja i nastojanja mojih
sunarodnjaka da sacuvamo hrvatski jezik, na primjer, ili osiguramo
slobodu i samostalnost vlastita naroda nikada nisam usporedjivao
sa cizmom Sovjetskog Saveza ili sovinizmom onoga sto zovemo
American way of life. Sve da sam to i htio, disproporcija je bila
nesavladiva.

Upravo u toj disproporciji nalazi se i sav nesporazum s danasnjim
(incidentalno: dobro, da ne kazem krvavo, naplacivanim)
drzavotvorstvom u Hrvatskoj. Rasulom komunizma nije propao samo
svijet bolje buducnosti nego, sto je za svaku buducnost mozda
vaznije ili bi se moglo razotkriti u tom obliku, takodjer veliki
ruski projekt zapocet prije pet stoljeca. U bilo kakvoj
objektivnoj usporedbi s tim projektom, Jugoslavija, ako cemo
pravo, nije nikad ni postojala. Pa ipak, nase nas zdrave i
drzavotvorne snage plase, molim vas, obnavljanjem nekakve tamo
Jugoslavije, premda svi znamo, ukljucujuci i pametniju djecu, da
veliki ruski projekt, ukoliko se ikad bude obnavljao, sigurno nije
zadaca sutrasnjeg dana. Na temelju te povijesne sitnice, i ma kako
se opirao tome, uvijek nekako dolazim do spoznaje da je nase
danasnje drzavotvorstvo (dopo facto) samo i jedino pitanje
prodavaca magle. I jos nesto: premda zacijelo postoje nacionalisti
koji su demokrati, nacionalizam, ma ciji bio, nije kompatibilan s
demokracijom. Zbog toga mislim da tu ne moze i ne smije biti
pomirenja. Ukoliko sebi zelimo dobro.

Treba pretpostaviti da svaki Hrvat dijeli identitet s drugim
Hrvatima; sa svijetom opstanak. Ako je tako, ne mozemo govoriti o
demokraciji u jednom dahu, a nijekati modernitet ili univerzalnost
u drugom: svijet opstanka nudi sve tri rijeci zajedno ili nista.
Izuzmete li onu koja vam se eventualno ne svidja, urusit ce vam se
cijeli koncept: obezvrijedjenje jedne ponistava druge dvije. A to
je upravo ono sto nase danasnje drzavotvorstvo radi, jer u
protivnom ne bi bilo jedan od vulgarnijih oblika najobicnije
nacionalisticke ideologije.

Kultura je po sebi krhka stvar; hrvatska politicka kultura jos
krhkija. Neka mi stoga bude dopusteno da uz proslavu 155.
obljetnice Matice hrvatske koja je i danas, bez obzira sto vam
drugi rekli ili mogu reci, vjerojatno najhrvatskija od hrvatskih
ustanova, navedem rijeci mucki ubijena i nepravedno predana
zaboravu Andreja Amalrika, autora studije Hoce li Sovjetski Savez
prezivjeti do 1984? Studija zavrsava rijecima:

U medjuvremenu govore nam da su zapadni prognosticari zaista
zabrinuti zbog rasta gradova i poteskoca koje donosi brzi korak
znanosti i tehnoloski napredak. Ocito je, da su "futurolozi"
postojali u carskom Rimu, gdje su ljudi, kako ucimo, vec podizali
sestokatnice a djecje vrtuljke pokretala para, "futurolog" iz
petog stoljeca prorekao bi za slijedece stoljece podizanje zgrada
od dvadeset katova i tvornicko koristenje parne snage.

Ipak, koliko sada znamo, u sestom su stoljecu koze pasle na Forumu
-- upravo kao sada pod mojim prozorom u ovom selu.

Ovo, usprkos svemu, nije 1947. i ja se zaista ne bojim koza vec i
stoga sto su koze, kako vidimo, u konacnici ipak problem
imperijalnih naroda. S druge strane, iskreno me je strah stjenica,
ovoga naseg pregolema napretka i, eventualno, infarkta.

POTPIS: Boris Maruna

[Barry S. Marjanovich]

On Sat, 1 Mar 1997, Robert Kaplan wrote:

> > On Tue, 25 Feb 1997 sa...@mail.idt.net (SLOBo's SERVant) wrote:
> >
> > sssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss
> > Karadzic, Mladic & SERVIA Wanted For War Crimes
> > sssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss

> > THE Bosnian war crimes tribunal at The Hague yesterday issued
> > international arrest warrants for Radovan Karadzic and Ratko Mladic,
> > making the Bosnian Serb leaders international fugitives from justice,

> We'll soon see the mulsim hordes running all over the former Yugoslavia,
> extracting "revenge". And the Western world will say "I'm sorry, we're
> tired of Bosnia" and do nothing.

ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss
Dead Bosnians "Invaded" Servs' Backyards
ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss
The Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, July 28, 1996:

NOVA KASABA, Bosnia and Herzegovina - When the Serb Nostoski family moved
into their tattered two-story house in May they did not suspect that their
backyard would soon be the focus of the world's morbid attention.

"We knew that we didn't want to live with the Muslims again..." Dragana
Nostoski said.

Instead, their Serbian government offered the Nostoski family of three a
home that many other Serbs had already turned down.

Only later did the Nostoskis discover why. They were living at one of
Europe's biggest, unmarked mass grave. Hundreds of murdered Bosnians,
gunned down at close range by their Serb neighbors, surround the house.

"It just happens - by coincidence - that we ended up living next to this
mass grave," added Mrs. Nostoski, who was in tears over the attention
given to the skeletons being excavated from her backyard and the lack of
concern that her Serb government and the world has shown to her family's
needs.

The family has no food aid or health care. Both young parents have rotting
teeth. Their only child, a five-year-old boy, is malnourished.

Last week a team of forensics experts on loan from the Boston-based
Physicians for Human Rights began digging up bodies in the Nostoski's back
yard as international investigators pieced together a war crimes case
against top Serb leaders who are alleged to have planned and overssen
summary executions of from 5,000 to 8,000 Bosnians in northern Bosnia.

The family owned a bakery and three houses in Sarajevo before moving to
this ethnically cleansed village.

"No one wanted this house and now I understand why. At first, we were
afraid of ghosts because there were no lights," Mrs. Nostoski said.

Like many Serb civilians, the Nostoskis remain unconvinced that mass
murders took place. They believe the victims being exhumed are merely
soldiers killed in battle.

While the Nostoskis remain silent and resigned, other Serbs passing the
exhumation sites in cars last week openly scoffed at the team of experts
attached to the International War Crimes Tribunal in The Hague,
Netherlands.

Evidence that the cadavers being unearthed were executed last summer
during a Serb offensive against the UN "safe" haven of Srebrenica is
becoming harder to refute.

"The hands have been tied in back," said an exhausted digger who moved
into the shade for a few minutes. "The faces are totally bare, but there
is still flesh on the legs."

A local Serb police official, who identified himself only as Dragan,
became angry when he arrived at the grave and heard that the digger had
spoken with reporters. "These were soldiers shot during fighting in the
woods or up on the road," he said pointing to the crest of a green hill
where a horsedrawn cart filled with children singing Serbian folk songs
passed.

The graves near Nova Kasaba were made public in U.S. intelligence
photographs revealed last summer by U.N. Ambassador Madeleine Albright.
The sites here are thought to contain up to 2,000 corpses, though the
exact number will take weeks to unearth, say investigators.

John Gerns, a senior U.S. forensics expert standing behind a barbed-wire
cordon around the site, said that his team was uncovernig intact bodies
after discovering an arm or leg and then tracing a path through the dirt
to the entire skeleton.

"The investigators don't disturb us," said Mrs. Nostoski, who turned up
the Serbian pop music outside her home this week to drown out the sound of
bulldozers and shovels. "They are very polite people and they go home
every night."

But with her own government's denial that major war crimes were committed
here and its refusal to accept international humanitarian aid tied to
a "unified Bosnia," prospects for the Nostoski family remain bleak.
Indeed, it is the living in Bosnia who are faced with becoming the new
victims of poverty and war.
EVIL C EVIL
sssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss C + C ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss
EVIL C EVIL

[PCF]

>Viktor Arevalo wrote:
>>
>> >By the Way, Vanja assumed you were the Robert Kaplan that authored the
>> >book Balkan Ghosts. I doubt it.
>>
>> It's of course the same guy this Kaplan. I know him since he was a child.
He's
>> written a lot of books about Islam and is writing a new one about Islamic
>> atrocities in Bosnia.
>>
>> Best regards
>>
>> Viktor Arevalo
>
>Arevalo, termina con estas boludeces, que sino la proxima atrocidad va a
>ser contra vos.
>
>Salu2,
>
>Robert
>

No será el whisky emulando a Viktorio?

[Martin Graiter]

Robert Kaplan <rka...@iamerica.net> wrote:

> 2. The Serbs should have a right to self determination, and, if they
> want to join Serbia, it's none of our business.

Aaah! Good. So at last we'll see new native american states emerge in the
US?
Them "Aryan" dudes could also get their nazi republics. Welcome to the
middle ages!

Your country has already made it it's business to interfere in balkan
matters.
Mostly by helping the Serbs in different ways. Where are all those jews who

constantly talk about "we must never forget"? You DID forget. So this time
the nazi's didn't wear swastikas, they didn't speak german, and the target
wasn't jews. That's all it took to make you "forget". Congratulations.

Martin

[vanja]

In article <331B7B...@iamerica.net>, rka...@iamerica.net wrote:

> Interesting that these muslim lovers of democracy con only toss insults
> at me, I have "shit in the brain", I am "stupid", but they refuse to
> engage in a facts based debate. Could start by naming the muslim
> dominated states that are also secular democracies, with respect for
> non-muslim minority rights.

Why are you again comparing Bosia to other Muslim states? Bosnia is not
exclusively a Muslim state! It is a secular, democratic state - or it
would be if there wasn't for those you support: Indicted War criminals and
their pawns who toss far greater insults at Muslims, who were prepared to
annihilate entire Bosnian Muslim population and whipte out their culture..

> Even in so called "secular" states, such as Egypt and Turkey, minorities
> are being persecuted. Given this record, it should not be surprising
> that the Serbs are aprehensive.

look above.. Bosnia is not Egypt or Turkey... The only minority that is
persecuted in Bosnia are remaining Muslim in Ser and Croat controlled
areas. Everyday their houses are burned, they are dragged from their
apartments and left on the streets. That's the reality...

> BTW, I live in the USA. I don't follow the Belgrade media, let alone the
> Pale media. And I am not a Serb.

And you don't have a slightest clue what's going on there, yet you make
such sweeping accusations agaist the Muslims, the victims of genocide!!!

> What's wrong with the Bosnian Serbs joining Serbia? The Croats joining
> Croatia? That would be democratic self determination, right?

Not if it involves genocide, ethnic cleansing, annihilation and denial of
self-determination of another peopl, Bosnians.

> If the Bosnian muslims had demonstrated that they are democrats and
> liberal and secular, they MIGHT have a legitimate claim to a unified
> Bosnia. But this same bunch has already staged mock trials (see above,
> cf New York Times, not usually part of the Pale media), they brought in
> "freedom fighters" from Afghanistan and terrorist trainers from Iran
> (lying to the United Nations about both), and are openly preparing to
> get revenge on the Serbs. The government and Army don't even make a
> pretense of being secular (see Mostar). They are Muslims first and last,
> and, once they gain military control of all of Bosnia, it will become
> another Muslim dictatorship.

Bosnia and Herzegovina is internationally recognized republic consisting
of three constituent nationas. As such it guarantees the equal rights to
all ethnic groups, including the ethnic and/or religious minorities.
The only reason Muslim fighters from elsewhere cme to Bosnia was becasue
the rest of the world has broken the international laws (and denied
Bosnian the riught of self defense) which made situation desperate, and
required extreme responses, like importing a certain number of
Aghanistanis.

> The "elections" in Bosnia were a sham. Muslims voted muslim, Serbs voted
> Serb, Croats voted Croat. What kind of multiethnic state is that? The
> way to win elections is not to convince the opposition that you're
> better, it is to breed faster. Bosnia is not a state, it is another
> aggregation of tribes that hate each other, like some of the states the
> europeans set up in Africa.

Address this question o Mr. Clinton, the true admirer of "Balkan Ghosts"

> I'm simply saying that
>
> 1. We (the US) should not be arming another muslim bunch. The Afghan
> experience should be enough.

Bosnia is an independent and internationally recognized country. The UN
recognized in 1992 that there was an OUTSIDE aggression against Bosnia.
Therefore, it was the UN's DUTY to enable Bosnians to defend thmselves.

> 2. The Serbs should have a right to self determination, and, if they
> want to join Serbia, it's none of our business.

It is our business, especial;ly after genocide over Muslims has occurred.
If the US allows Serbs to join Serbia, it will give way to more genocide
everywhere else in the world.

>
> >
> > Srbine, stavi prst u uho i porici, ja sta ces, tako je najlakse.
> >
>
> Have no idea what this means, I suspect more insults from our democratic
> muslimm debaters.
>
> Robert

vanja

[Michael Sells]

> > Robert Kaplan (rka...@iamerica.net) wrote:

> Interesting that these muslim lovers of democracy con only toss insults
> at me, I have "shit in the brain", I am "stupid", but they refuse to
> engage in a facts based debate. Could start by naming the muslim
> dominated states that are also secular democracies, with respect for
> non-muslim minority rights.
>
> Even in so called "secular" states, such as Egypt and Turkey, minorities
> are being persecuted. Given this record, it should not be surprising
> that the Serbs are aprehensive.
>
> BTW, I live in the USA. I don't follow the Belgrade media, let alone the
> Pale media. And I am not a Serb.
>
> What's wrong with the Bosnian Serbs joining Serbia? The Croats joining
> Croatia? That would be democratic self determination, right?

Robert, you can be a Serb or not a Serb. That is not an issue. The issue
is your bigotry. After slaughter, rape-camps, concentration camps,
destruction of library, churches, and mosques, we don't need more
hate-filled bigoted statements.

If want to know where you hatred and prejudice is to be found, it is in

the following exchange: You said:

> > : > > 1) The muslims are arming themselves (with the assistance of the
US and
> > : > > Iran) and are openly admitting that they will seek revenge.
> > : > >
> > : > > 2) According to today's New York Times, the people that had been
> > : > > "brutally murdered" by Serbs - which Serbs were tried and convicted by
> > : > > an "impartial" muslim court in Sarajevo, were found alive and farming
> > : > > not far from the capital.
> > : > >
> > : > > We'll soon see the mulsim hordes running all over the former
Yugoslavia,
> > : > > extracting "revenge". And the Western world will say "I'm sorry, we're
> > : > > tired of Bosnia" and do nothing.
> > : >
> > : > If there is no justice, there will be revenge. This is a law of
all human
> > : > societies.
> >
> > : Where did you get this law? From the Koran? Who decides on justice?
> > : Where will it all end?
> >
> > : As far as the Muslims are concerned, the only "justice" will be the
> > : extermination of the Serbs. My example of muslim "justice" should
> > : suffice.

First of all, your term "Muslim hordes" is the kind of blatant
hate-caricature that is really beyond the pale. There are no Muslim
hordes of Bosnians. "Horde" is a name that refers to large nomadic groups
of allied central Asian tribes (Huns, Mongols, Tartars) that for centuries
threatened nearby areas with attack. You term is as ugly as referring to
a group of black people as "African Cannibals." It is a disgusting, truly
despicable, demeaning, contemptible, piece of hate. It is KKK stuff at
the primary level.

There is is Robert. Look at it in the face.

And what is your justification for dehumanizing the entire Bosnian people
as "Muslim hordes"? An apparent irregularity in one trial in Sarajevo!
Good god, man, during WW2 the good Christian in the U.S. rounded up
hundreds of thousands of innocent Japanese and put them into detention
camps! I'm glad the Muslims in Vogosca were found alive and I expect the
Serb in Sarajevo will get a better trial now with all the scrutiny. You
take this one injustice in Bosnian court and extrapolate to "Muslim
horders" overrunning the Balkans.

Your are a very sick guy, Robert. Very, very, sick.

Mike

[Robert Kaplan]

vanja wrote:
>
> In article <331B7B...@iamerica.net>, rka...@iamerica.net wrote:
>

> > Interesting that these muslim lovers of democracy con only toss insults
> > at me, I have "shit in the brain", I am "stupid", but they refuse to
> > engage in a facts based debate. Could start by naming the muslim
> > dominated states that are also secular democracies, with respect for
> > non-muslim minority rights.
>

> Why are you again comparing Bosia to other Muslim states? Bosnia is not
> exclusively a Muslim state!

EXACTLY, it is NOT exclusively Muslim; the reason I compare it is
because I suspect that that's exactly what any rational Serb would do...
and then they would decide they do not want to be a minority in a Muslim
state.

> It is a secular, democratic state - or it
> would be if there wasn't for those you support: Indicted War criminals and
> their pawns who toss far greater insults at Muslims, who were prepared to
> annihilate entire Bosnian Muslim population and whipte out their culture..
>

It might have been, and I agree that what happened there is a tragedy.
But to say that NOW (March 1997) Bosnia is a "secular, democratic state"
is a travesty. Bosnia is an aggregation of three tribes that hate each
other, and they would be killing each other if it were not for the NATO
forces.

> > Even in so called "secular" states, such as Egypt and Turkey, minorities
> > are being persecuted. Given this record, it should not be surprising
> > that the Serbs are aprehensive.
>

> look above.. Bosnia is not Egypt or Turkey... The only minority that is
> persecuted in Bosnia are remaining Muslim in Ser and Croat controlled
> areas. Everyday their houses are burned, they are dragged from their
> apartments and left on the streets. That's the reality...
>

So why do you Muslims insist on living with people like that? Seems to
me that, when they want to join Serbia or Croatia, you should say "good
riddance", like the Czechs did with the Slovaks.

> > BTW, I live in the USA. I don't follow the Belgrade media, let alone the
> > Pale media. And I am not a Serb.
>

> And you don't have a slightest clue what's going on there, yet you make
> such sweeping accusations agaist the Muslims, the victims of genocide!!!
>

> > What's wrong with the Bosnian Serbs joining Serbia? The Croats joining
> > Croatia? That would be democratic self determination, right?
>

> Not if it involves genocide, ethnic cleansing, annihilation and denial of
> self-determination of another peopl, Bosnians.
>

Please explain the paragraph above. Are you saying that the Muslims own
the Serbs and Croats? I was not talking about genocide or ethnic
cleansing; simply stating that if the Serbs want to be part of Serbia
instead of Bosnia, they have that right.

> > If the Bosnian muslims had demonstrated that they are democrats and
> > liberal and secular, they MIGHT have a legitimate claim to a unified
> > Bosnia. But this same bunch has already staged mock trials (see above,
> > cf New York Times, not usually part of the Pale media), they brought in
> > "freedom fighters" from Afghanistan and terrorist trainers from Iran
> > (lying to the United Nations about both), and are openly preparing to
> > get revenge on the Serbs. The government and Army don't even make a
> > pretense of being secular (see Mostar). They are Muslims first and last,
> > and, once they gain military control of all of Bosnia, it will become
> > another Muslim dictatorship.
>

> Bosnia and Herzegovina is internationally recognized republic consisting
> of three constituent nationas. As such it guarantees the equal rights to
> all ethnic groups, including the ethnic and/or religious minorities.
> The only reason Muslim fighters from elsewhere cme to Bosnia was becasue
> the rest of the world has broken the international laws (and denied
> Bosnian the riught of self defense) which made situation desperate, and
> required extreme responses, like importing a certain number of
> Aghanistanis.
>

You don't want to understand. You call the Muslims "Bosnians" as if they
were the only inhabitants of Bosnia. They are not. The Serbs are as much
"bosnians" as the Muslims. The fact that you refuse to recognize that
kind of proves my point; you view Bosnia as a country for YOUR
DEFINITION of "bosnians" (the Muslims only). The moment you guys take
over, with all the fresh weapons and without the NATO forces to hold you
back, you'll make Krajina look like a picnic.

> > The "elections" in Bosnia were a sham. Muslims voted muslim, Serbs voted
> > Serb, Croats voted Croat. What kind of multiethnic state is that? The
> > way to win elections is not to convince the opposition that you're
> > better, it is to breed faster. Bosnia is not a state, it is another
> > aggregation of tribes that hate each other, like some of the states the
> > europeans set up in Africa.
>

> Address this question o Mr. Clinton, the true admirer of "Balkan Ghosts"
>

No, I'm adressing it to YOU. Do you rally think that, at this point,
Bosnia is a multiethnic state? If so, why?

> > I'm simply saying that
> >
> > 1. We (the US) should not be arming another muslim bunch. The Afghan
> > experience should be enough.
>

> Bosnia is an independent and internationally recognized country. The UN
> recognized in 1992 that there was an OUTSIDE aggression against Bosnia.
> Therefore, it was the UN's DUTY to enable Bosnians to defend thmselves.
>

Fine, should we send a bunch of modern weapons to Pale? After all, the
Serbs are Bosnians, aren't they? We just want to "enable bosnians to
defend themselves".

> > 2. The Serbs should have a right to self determination, and, if they
> > want to join Serbia, it's none of our business.
>

> It is our business, especial;ly after genocide over Muslims has occurred.
> If the US allows Serbs to join Serbia, it will give way to more genocide
> everywhere else in the world.
>

Under which conditions are the Muslims willing to allow self
determination for the Serbs? Like the Croats in Krajina - abandon all
your possessions and get out of here, and maybe we won't shoot you? Or
do you have a better plan? Are the Muslims willing to buy their land?

Robert

[Vlatko Juric-Kokic]

On Mon, 3 Mar 1997, Robert Kaplan wrote:
> at me, I have "shit in the brain", I am "stupid", but they refuse to
> engage in a facts based debate. Could start by naming the muslim
> dominated states that are also secular democracies, with respect for
> non-muslim minority rights.

I was trying to abstain, but I can't resist anymore. Why would anyone
engage you in a "facts based debate," when you are obviously interested
only in the facts that support your theories?

> Even in so called "secular" states, such as Egypt and Turkey, minorities
> are being persecuted. Given this record, it should not be surprising
> that the Serbs are aprehensive.

Can you tell me when were the Moslems in Bosnia persecuting anyone? And
don't you start spouting history at me. I'm talking about the last 70
years before the war.

> What's wrong with the Bosnian Serbs joining Serbia? The Croats joining
> Croatia? That would be democratic self determination, right?

Maybe the fact that Bosnia has a constitution which prohibits it? And why
don't you in the USA allow non-white people to self-determine themselves?
It would be democratic self-determination, wouldn't it? Some of them have
much more reason to establish a separate state than either Serbs or Croats
in Bosnia.

> "freedom fighters" from Afghanistan and terrorist trainers from Iran
> (lying to the United Nations about both), and are openly preparing to
> get revenge on the Serbs.

I'm not going to deny this, and I'm going to say that there's a lot of
scum in the Moslem circles in Bosnia. To be truthful, no more than
anywhere else.

But the operative word in your paragraph above is "revenge". Why should
they have a reason for revenge? The Serbs were so nice, polite and
civilized to them, and now, the Moslems want a "revenge." Oh, dear, what
ungrateful bastards.

> The government and Army don't even make a pretense of being secular (see
> Mostar). They are Muslims first and last, and, once they gain military
> control of all of Bosnia, it will become another Muslim dictatorship.

A wrong example. See Bugojno. Mostar is another story where the blame is
not only on the Moslems.

> Bosnia is not a state, it is another aggregation of tribes that hate
> each other, like some of the states the europeans set up in Africa.

And all of that thanks to those like you who let the Serbs do what they
want. If somebody had stopped Serbia during the attack on Croatia, there
wouldn't have been a Bosnian war. Neither the one against the Serbs, nor
the one between the Croats and Moslems. Thanks for nothing.

> 1. We (the US) should not be arming another muslim bunch. The Afghan
> experience should be enough.

Yep. You should have let the Serbs exterminate the whole bunch of them,
not a measly couple of hundred thousands.

> 2. The Serbs should have a right to self determination, and, if they
> want to join Serbia, it's none of our business.

You're right. It's none of *your* (2nd person singular) business. And the
Serbs have no right to fulfill their territorial pretensions by
"self-determination." They didn't have it in Croatia and they don't have
it in Bosnia. They didn't come to our two countries and brought their land
with themselves, so they can't take it away now.

> > Srbine, stavi prst u uho i porici, ja sta ces, tako je najlakse.
> Have no idea what this means, I suspect more insults from our democratic
> muslimm debaters.

Well, I know what it means, and it's not an insult.

Democracy, in your case, is way overrated. If you want to participate in a
democratic debate, learn your facts. Otherwise, you can join the nice
fellows in alt.history.revisionism. Or those charming beings in the triple
K society. You seem their tipe of guy.

--
vko...@r101.com.hr | I have an attitude and |
vko...@public.srce.hr | I'm not afraid to use it.|

[sa...@idt.net]

Re: Just for you SLOBo's SERVIA!

Ah, Yes! and if Milosevic, Mladic or Karadzic came to the defense of the
Serbs in the Krajina and killed thousands of Croats in the process, it
would have been Michael Sells standing on his hypocritical soap box
condemning the Serbs for defending themselves. 'Don't cry for me
Argentina' has come to mean, 'Don't Cry For Me Croatian Krajina' as
Michael Sells rewrites the lyrics that accompanied thousands of Serbs to
their deaths. Sells is a hypocrite that betrayed his mother, her ethnic
race and her moral teachings.

'The people of Zagreb received us as surely as no other soldiers have
ever been greeted in a foreign land. All the streets are teaming with
large throngs of people. It all happened in a scene of indescribable
enthusiasm. From a hundred thousand throats rang out the continual
cry: 'Heil Hitler' 'Sieg Heil' as stated on Radio Berlin, April 11th,
1941 the day after the founding of the First Independent State of
Croatia, a Nazi puppet state.
Serbs refused to participate nor rejoice in this demonstration of
fascism knowing it meant their demise.

'If the Croats want to protect their Independence, they must carry out a
policy of intolerance towards the Serbs for the next 50 years,' was the
statement made by Adolf Hitler on June 6th, 1941, and nearly 50 years to
the day, Serbs once again found themselves under the thumb of the
murderous
Nazi Croats.

Richard Ross, a non-ethnic film maker, summed up people like Michael
Sells and his ilk expertly in his award winning film 'The Rape of
Reason' in which he used the following passage to describe the Croatian
people in the following manner: 'The Serbs can no longer rejoice that
the Ustashi beasts is dead for the Bitch that bore him came into heat in
this generation and gave birth to his brother.' And, Michael Sells is
the Kum to that beast.

Mr. Sells, a man without a conscience is able to ignore the fact that
less than 1% of Croatia now contains a Serb. Greater Croatia, the Nazi
dream of an ethnically pure, Roman Catholic state has become a reality,
50 years later. Michael Sells protects the butchers of the Balkans,
Alija Izetbegovic and Franjo Tudjman in such a manner that one can only
surmise that he is a paid mouthpiece.

I wonder, when the bodies of his relatives are eventually recovered and
are discovered to have their hands tied behind their backs with a bullet
in their skulls, will Michael Sells still protect and kiss the ass of
the Croats that murdered them? Like Vuk Bronkovic, the answer is, YES!

Michael Sells will sit at the table and share a meal with those who
murdered his relative, those who destroyed his mother's Serbian churches
and those who took great pleasure, as they did 50 years ago, in
dismembering their Serbian victims, body part at a time.

Today in Sarajevo there are less than 20,000 Serbs, where there was once
150,000 Serbs in this city that continues to claim itself to be
multi-everything.

[Michael Sells]

Sure you are "fascinated by Muslim culture and art." Just like the KKK
boys say some of their "best friends" are blacks! The ugly stereotypes
and nauseating prejudice you exhibited in your message are clear to all.
You can deny it all you want but you are only denying your own face in
the
mirror.

[SAVA]
What a hypocrite, Michael Sells acts like he invented the word
'stereotypes' when he speaks of the Serbs, all 10 million of us. Sells
practices collective
guilt with as much expertise as any Klu Klux Klan demagogue.

[Aleksandar Sarovic]

Martin Graiter <mag...@algonet.se> wrote in article
<01bc28a4$e2ea8860$0a19...@algonet.se.news.algonet.se>...

>
>
> Robert Kaplan <rka...@iamerica.net> wrote:
>
> > 2. The Serbs should have a right to self determination, and, if they
> > want to join Serbia, it's none of our business.
>

> Aaah! Good. So at last we'll see new native american states emerge in the
> US?
> Them "Aryan" dudes could also get their nazi republics. Welcome to the
> middle ages!

The Middle Ages has already started with the destruction of Yugoslavia.

> Your country has already made it it's business to interfere in balkan
> matters.
> Mostly by helping the Serbs in different ways.

Yes, specially by sanctions and bombing.

> Where are all those jews who
> constantly talk about "we must never forget"? You DID forget. So this time
> the nazi's didn't wear swastikas, they didn't speak german, and the target
> wasn't jews. That's all it took to make you "forget". Congratulations.

You should remind yourself by reading something from or about the President of
Croatia.

> Martin

[Michel Maisonneuve]

On 4 Mar 1997 14:06:49 GMT, "Martin Graiter" <mag...@algonet.se>
wrote:

>
>
>Robert Kaplan <rka...@iamerica.net> wrote:
>
>> 2. The Serbs should have a right to self determination, and, if they
>> want to join Serbia, it's none of our business.
>

>Aaah! Good. So at last we'll see new native american states emerge in the
>US?
>Them "Aryan" dudes could also get their nazi republics. Welcome to the
>middle ages!
>

>Your country has already made it it's business to interfere in balkan
>matters.

>Mostly by helping the Serbs in different ways. Where are all those jews who

>constantly talk about "we must never forget"? You DID forget. So this time
>the nazi's didn't wear swastikas, they didn't speak german, and the target
>wasn't jews. That's all it took to make you "forget". Congratulations.
>

>Martin

You have to re-read your history, Martin

It was the Serbs who helped the Jews then

And Croatians were nazis

Michel
The muslims don't count

[Vanja]

In article <331C9D...@iamerica.net>, rka...@iamerica.net wrote:

> vanja wrote:
> >
> > In article <331B7B...@iamerica.net>, rka...@iamerica.net wrote:
> >
> > > Interesting that these muslim lovers of democracy con only toss insults
> > > at me, I have "shit in the brain", I am "stupid", but they refuse to
> > > engage in a facts based debate. Could start by naming the muslim
> > > dominated states that are also secular democracies, with respect for
> > > non-muslim minority rights.
> >
> > Why are you again comparing Bosia to other Muslim states? Bosnia is not
> > exclusively a Muslim state!
>
> EXACTLY, it is NOT exclusively Muslim; the reason I compare it is
> because I suspect that that's exactly what any rational Serb would do...
> and then they would decide they do not want to be a minority in a Muslim
> state.

Serbian people cannot be a minority in Bosnia. They are one of three
Bosnia's constiuent nationalities. Serbs of Bosnia are a prt of definition
what is Bosnia: a multi ethnic state. They are entitled to it as much as
any other ethnic group. But they are not entitled by sany law or right to
take parts of Bosnia, form illegal administrative units, and especially
not to kill, rape and expell others. That fact is what you keep
forgetting, and keep coming back against the victims of the aggression!

> > It is a secular, democratic state - or it
> > would be if there wasn't for those you support: Indicted War criminals and
> > their pawns who toss far greater insults at Muslims, who were prepared to
> > annihilate entire Bosnian Muslim population and whipte out their culture..
> >
>
> It might have been, and I agree that what happened there is a tragedy.
> But to say that NOW (March 1997) Bosnia is a "secular, democratic state"
> is a travesty. Bosnia is an aggregation of three tribes that hate each
> other, and they would be killing each other if it were not for the NATO
> forces.

That is not true. Peoples of Bosnia have lived a very long periods of time
in peace and harmony. Unfortunate circumstances led one people turn
against the other. But the times of extreme nationalism will pass, and the
perpetrators of genocide and ethnic hatreds will pass as well. The people,
simple people will remain, and no matter what, they will have to live
together. So instead of making it a worse now, and allowing genocidial
maniacs to finish their works unpanished and unsactioned will only keep
this region unstable.

> > > Even in so called "secular" states, such as Egypt and Turkey, minorities
> > > are being persecuted. Given this record, it should not be surprising
> > > that the Serbs are aprehensive.
> >
> > look above.. Bosnia is not Egypt or Turkey... The only minority that is
> > persecuted in Bosnia are remaining Muslim in Ser and Croat controlled
> > areas. Everyday their houses are burned, they are dragged from their
> > apartments and left on the streets. That's the reality...
> >
>
> So why do you Muslims insist on living with people like that? Seems to
> me that, when they want to join Serbia or Croatia, you should say "good
> riddance", like the Czechs did with the Slovaks.

The Muslims wish to live the way they lived before: in their homes, next
to their neighbors, Serbs, Muslims, Croats and others. Is there something
wrong in wishing to live normally and peacefully in a community with other
ethnic groups? If you find this true, than you better pay more attention
to "shit in the brain" lines...

> > > BTW, I live in the USA. I don't follow the Belgrade media, let alone the
> > > Pale media. And I am not a Serb.
> >
> > And you don't have a slightest clue what's going on there, yet you make
> > such sweeping accusations agaist the Muslims, the victims of genocide!!!
> >
> > > What's wrong with the Bosnian Serbs joining Serbia? The Croats joining
> > > Croatia? That would be democratic self determination, right?
> >
> > Not if it involves genocide, ethnic cleansing, annihilation and denial of
> > self-determination of another peopl, Bosnians.
> >
>
> Please explain the paragraph above. Are you saying that the Muslims own
> the Serbs and Croats? I was not talking about genocide or ethnic
> cleansing; simply stating that if the Serbs want to be part of Serbia
> instead of Bosnia, they have that right.

You are simply putting away the fact that what the extreme Serb and Croat
nationalists did were acts of genocide. That makes any political struggle
behind it absolutely illegitamet. You can't allow nazis to kill 6 million
jews and then say, so what, Germans dont want to live with Jews....

Bosnian Constitution guarantees completely the same rights for every
ethnic group. That means that the Bosnian Serbs can have close diplomatic,
cultural and other ties with Serbia.. Menas that they can have their own
way of education. means that they can have everything as long as they
respect the fact that they live in an internationally recognized state,
Bosnia and Herzegovina, and do not try to undermine this state. It's the
way every democratic country in the world guarantees human, ethnic,
minority and other rights.

Exactly. The Serbs are as much as Bosniaks (not Bosnians). Bosnia belongs
to all three major ethnic groups and other minority groups. "We guys" took
over in 1992 when the countries of the world recognized "us" as a state.
Bosnian government consisted of memebrs of all three ethnic groups. When
the war started a great majority of Serbian members of the government left
their posts, and organized an illegal state within state. That's an act
against the Constitution of Bosnia.

> > > The "elections" in Bosnia were a sham. Muslims voted muslim, Serbs voted
> > > Serb, Croats voted Croat. What kind of multiethnic state is that? The
> > > way to win elections is not to convince the opposition that you're
> > > better, it is to breed faster. Bosnia is not a state, it is another
> > > aggregation of tribes that hate each other, like some of the states the
> > > europeans set up in Africa.
> >
> > Address this question o Mr. Clinton, the true admirer of "Balkan Ghosts"
> >
>
> No, I'm adressing it to YOU. Do you rally think that, at this point,
> Bosnia is a multiethnic state? If so, why?

Because during the war a great number of Serbs and Croats stayed loyal to
legally elected Bosnian government and loyal to Bosnian State. Today, many
Serbs ad Croats are choosing to come back to their homes in the
federation. They belong there. They lived there for decades, those are
their homes. The same must be true for the Bosniaks expelled by the Serbs
and Croats. Why is it not true thus far? Becase, like yourself, they are
against any notion of shared living with others. Bosnia will always be a
multiethnic state. People there will always live with each other, or in
the closest proxmity.. Why not start living like today?

> > > I'm simply saying that
> > >
> > > 1. We (the US) should not be arming another muslim bunch. The Afghan
> > > experience should be enough.
> >
> > Bosnia is an independent and internationally recognized country. The UN
> > recognized in 1992 that there was an OUTSIDE aggression against Bosnia.
> > Therefore, it was the UN's DUTY to enable Bosnians to defend thmselves.
> >
>
> Fine, should we send a bunch of modern weapons to Pale? After all, the
> Serbs are Bosnians, aren't they? We just want to "enable bosnians to
> defend themselves".

No need. They have all tghe modern weapons they need. I was there, don't
forget. I got a good sense of kind of war technology they have. And don't
wprry, the Serb will never be brutally attacked like the way they attacked
their Bosniak neighbors...

> > > 2. The Serbs should have a right to self determination, and, if they
> > > want to join Serbia, it's none of our business.
> >
> > It is our business, especial;ly after genocide over Muslims has occurred.
> > If the US allows Serbs to join Serbia, it will give way to more genocide
> > everywhere else in the world.
> >
>
> Under which conditions are the Muslims willing to allow self
> determination for the Serbs? Like the Croats in Krajina - abandon all
> your possessions and get out of here, and maybe we won't shoot you? Or
> do you have a better plan? Are the Muslims willing to buy their land?

Croats in Krajina? Hello, Bosnia is not Croatia, remember that. If the
Bosniaks did not want any serbs, thousands and thousands of Serbs who
stayed loyal would long be expelled from their homes, and none of them
would be returning now.

vanja

> Robert

--
http://www.students.haverford.edu/vfilipov

[Aleksandar Sarovic]

Martin Graiter <mag...@algonet.se> wrote in article
<01bc28a4$e2ea8860$0a19...@algonet.se.news.algonet.se>...
>
>
> Robert Kaplan <rka...@iamerica.net> wrote:
>

> > 2. The Serbs should have a right to self determination, and, if they
> > want to join Serbia, it's none of our business.
>

> Aaah! Good. So at last we'll see new native american states emerge in the
> US?
> Them "Aryan" dudes could also get their nazi republics. Welcome to the
> middle ages!

The Middle Ages has already started with the destruction of Yugoslavia.

> Your country has already made it it's business to interfere in balkan
> matters.
> Mostly by helping the Serbs in different ways.

Yes, specially by sanctions and bombing.

> Where are all those jews who

> constantly talk about "we must never forget"? You DID forget. So this time
> the nazi's didn't wear swastikas, they didn't speak german, and the target
> wasn't jews. That's all it took to make you "forget". Congratulations.

You should remind yourself by reading something from or about the President
of Croatia.

> Martin

Aleksandar

[Damir Sokcevic]

In <01bc2903$7bf92ee0$LocalHost@aleksans> "Aleksandar Sarovic" <aleks...@front.net> writes:

>Martin Graiter <mag...@algonet.se> wrote in article

>> Your country has already made it it's business to interfere in balkan
>> matters.
>> Mostly by helping the Serbs in different ways.

>Yes, specially by sanctions and bombing.

Yes, that was only a small "make-up" to hide the crime. Not allowing us to
by weappons for the defence was a real help to Serbs

===========================================================================
Damir Sokcevic Phone: (385-1) 4561-194
Theoretical Physics Division
Rudjer Boskovic Institute Fax: (385-1) 428-541
Bijenicka c. 54
POB 1016 Internet: sokc...@thphys.irb.hr
10001 Zagreb
Croatia
============================================================================

[Viktor Arevalo]

>and then they would decide they do not want to be a minority in a Muslim
>state.

Why? Muslims treat minorities with traditional benevolence. The Jews in Spain
offer a paramount example. And even the notorious beduinat in this territory
counts three Jews in the innermost sanctuary of the tribe. About the case of
the Islamic Republic of Iran I don't dare talking, then you; Mr. Kaplan, are
the scholar in this case.

Cheers

Viktor Arevalo

[Viktor Arevalo]

>The moment you guys take
>over, with all the fresh weapons
>and without the NATO forces to hold you
>back, you'll make Krajina look like a picnic

Perhaps the Islamic Republic of Iran could send some peacemaking help. They're
very experienced and reliable in such tasks.

Best regards

Viktor Arevalo

[Denijel Cadra]

Robert Kaplan (rka...@iamerica.net) wrote:

Keep in your stupd mind that SErbs and not Bosnaian Muslims are the
ones who were being killed, raped, and "ethnicly cleansed". Keep in
your mind that 2 milion of Albanians are being ruled by minority Serbs in
the province of Kosovo. Don't you forget that Serbian Army was doing
shelings of Sarajevo killing 10,000 of people of Sarajevo.
What do you think who were the people that entire world saw in
concentratin camps set up by Bosnian Serbs. All of them were Bosnians
and some Croatians also. These people (10s of thousands of them were
not fighting men, if they were Serbs would lose the war long time ago)
were picked up by your shit Serbian Army which did what it did. And that
was, they killed these poor Bosnian Muslims or put them in this horor camps.

: BTW, I live in the USA. I don't follow the Belgrade media, let alone the

: Pale media. And I am not a Serb.

: What's wrong with the Bosnian Serbs joining Serbia? The Croats joining
: Croatia? That would be democratic self determination, right?

: If the Bosnian muslims had demonstrated that they are democrats and
: liberal and secular, they MIGHT have a legitimate claim to a unified
: Bosnia. But this same bunch has already staged mock trials (see above,
: cf New York Times, not usually part of the Pale media), they brought in
: "freedom fighters" from Afghanistan and terrorist trainers from Iran
: (lying to the United Nations about both), and are openly preparing to
: get revenge on the Serbs. The government and Army don't even make a
: pretense of being secular (see Mostar). They are Muslims first and last,
: and, once they gain military control of all of Bosnia, it will become
: another Muslim dictatorship.

Let me tell you something, all of my Bosnian friends (Serbs and Croats
called them Muslims) were hardly muslims. Most of them didn't even belive
in God and yet we are considered islamic fundamentalists. NOw if this
is definition of islamic fundamentalists then I have to belive that all of you
so called Europians and NOrth Americans are bunch of christian fundamentalists.
REgardles if you beive in Jessus or not, you are born as christian and that
makes you christian fundamentalist that is if you really want to fallow
your logic which is no logic at all.

: The "elections" in Bosnia were a sham. Muslims voted muslim, Serbs voted

: Serb, Croats voted Croat. What kind of multiethnic state is that? The
: way to win elections is not to convince the opposition that you're
: better, it is to breed faster. Bosnia is not a state, it is another
: aggregation of tribes that hate each other, like some of the states the
: europeans set up in Africa.

: I'm simply saying that

: 1. We (the US) should not be arming another muslim bunch. The Afghan
: experience should be enough.

: 2. The Serbs should have a right to self determination, and, if they
: want to join Serbia, it's none of our business.

Okey then how would you divide Sarajevo or Mostar for that matter without
doing shit that Serbs had done which was ethnic cleansing.
How would you divide pre war SArajevo 50% Bosnian Muslims
28% Serbs
7% Croats
rest were mix

or MOstar: 35% Bosnian Muslims
34% Croat
20% SErbs
rest was mix

NOw how do you figure division of Bosnia you smart man.

You now, you might live in America and you might be considered to be
American, but really you might as well be Serbian ultranationalist
who know how to hate Bosnian Muslims too much.

: > Srbine, stavi prst u uho i porici, j sta ces, tako je najlakse.

[Goran JUKIC]

sa...@idt.net wrote:

: ...has come to mean, 'Don't Cry For Me Croatian Krajina'....
...

Ako vec gubis rat nemoj gubiti ponos. Odvratno je citati
ovako slinavo tuljenje majmuna koji nema ni zrna ponosa.

Ako su Slobini tipovi vec usrali sve sto Srbin moze usrati
tj. bile su tri srpske drzave, a sad se i ona jedna jadna
preostala Srbijica bori za malo Kosova - onda SUTI.

Ili se napijaj ko zvijer u nekom anonimnom budjaku dok ne
shvatis da si budala bez ponosa i obraza.

Lijepo je i veselo danas u Hrvatskoj citati takve kretene
koji su do jucer mislili da ce Srbija na Mjesec, al nekako
je to previse ljigav trijumfalizam, danas, slusati jadnike
kako mole za milost cijeli svijet....

Krepaj, al imaj ponosa.

G*

[Martin Graiter]

Michel Maisonneuve <mic...@io.org> wrote:

> You have to re-read your history, Martin
>
> It was the Serbs who helped the Jews then
>
> And Croatians were nazis
>
> Michel
> The muslims don't count

Really? I wonder what history books you've been reading?

The first "jew-free" country in Hitler's Europe was Serbia. It was eager
Serb
collaborators who saw to this. The Serb Patriarch at the time sat in
Auschwitz
himself, yet this didn't stop him him from praising Hitler and how good it
was
that he "cleansed" Europe from Jews.

At the same time, a truly good man, cardinal Stepinec tried to save as many
Jews
as possible. Hiding them in his church, temporarily converting them to
catholicism, intervening and protesting with the (nazi) authorities. But
what happened? The communists turned him into a criminal, blackening
everything good he did. Not a single Jew stood up in defence.

A very small part of the Croatians were nazis, fewer than in France or
Hungary for
instance. Yet we are still depicted as the worst people in the world.
Thanks a lot.

It is not decent of you to say these things when the base for it is the
history-writing of those that hate us so much.

Greets, Martin

[Vanja]

In article <331cdd78...@news.io.org>, mic...@io.org (Michel
Maisonneuve) wrote:

> On 4 Mar 1997 14:06:49 GMT, "Martin Graiter" <mag...@algonet.se>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >Robert Kaplan <rka...@iamerica.net> wrote:
> >

> >> 2. The Serbs should have a right to self determination, and, if they
> >> want to join Serbia, it's none of our business.
> >

> >Aaah! Good. So at last we'll see new native american states emerge in the
> >US?
> >Them "Aryan" dudes could also get their nazi republics. Welcome to the
> >middle ages!
> >

> >Your country has already made it it's business to interfere in balkan
> >matters.

> >Mostly by helping the Serbs in different ways. Where are all those jews who

> >constantly talk about "we must never forget"? You DID forget. So this time
> >the nazi's didn't wear swastikas, they didn't speak german, and the target
> >wasn't jews. That's all it took to make you "forget". Congratulations.
> >

> >Martin

>
> You have to re-read your history, Martin
>
> It was the Serbs who helped the Jews then
>
> And Croatians were nazis
>
> Michel
> The muslims don't count

In 1492 when the Spanish queen expells the remaining Muslims from Spain,
and large numbers of Jews and other non-Christians, the only place in the
southeastern Europe that offered home to Sephardic Jews were the Muslim
Ottomans. yes, the Jews settled in what's today Bosnia.
With them, they brought an extraordinary book, today known as "Sarajevo
Hagaddah." It was written in Spain, and brought to Bosnia. It survived one
genocide.

During the World War 2, when the Nazis occupied Bosnia, "Hagaddah" was a
wanted item by the nazi hordes who sought to exterminate every trace of
Jewish physical or cultural life. "Hagaddah" was hidden in the house of a
Muslim family, near town of Trnovo, South-east of Sarajevo. Hidden there,
the "Hagaddah" survived another genocide.

After the WW2, it was revealed again, and put in the National Museum in
Sarjaevo, the re-prints were made. My fathe, a Muslim, worked as an
editorin the re-publishment of the book. The "Sarajevo Hagaddah" became
known to thousands of people, as it was published (with a commentary book)
in several languages.

When the nazi hordes of Gen. Mladic took positions around Sarajevo, their
primary targets were the cultural objects in sarajevo: museums, libraries,
institutes, etc. The National Museum, where the original 15th century
Hagaddah was kept, suffered heavy, deliberate shelling. But the
"Hagaddah," the symbol of Bosnia's multiculturalism, was saved once a
again, by a group of curators, all of different religious background. The
Sarajevo Hagaddah survived yet another genocide.

And while the nazi hordes of gen. Mladic burnt, raped, destroyed and
killed, in Sarajevo, during the worst of shelling of Sarajevo, jewish
community, together with their neighbors, celebrated 500 years of Jewish
presence in Bosnia.

Vanja

--
http://www.students.haverford.edu/vfilipov

[Boris Petrov]

Zasto je Kraljevic ubijen !

(Pitanje: Zasto je Kraljevic ubijen ?
Odgovor: Smetao je suradnji/dogovoru cetnickih zivotinja i
Tudjmana)

Slobodna Bosna, 25.08.1996.

USLI SMO BILI U TREBINJE!

Prvi put u bosanskoj stampi govori zapovjednik Stanko Primorac Cane,
koji je, predvodeci elitnu bojnu HOS-a, usao u Trebinje:

- Poslije Bune, usli smo u Stolac i zauzeli linije koje se i sada
drze prema cetnicima. Polovinom sestog mjeseca '92. ostisli smo na
dubrovacko ratiste, od mjesta Zavale u juznom Popovom polju, do
Trebinjske sume. Tamo osvojili sve znacajne kote. Uzeli smo kotu koju
nije uzela 4. gardijska briagda HV, izasli na Popovo polje, odakle se
vidjelo predgradje Trebinja. Odbrana Trebinja je dovedana u pitanje.
Najkvalitetniji dio elitne bojne je 4.8. krenuo s ciljem da napravi
dar-mar u Trebinju i povuce se. Sto smo i napravili. Kada smo se
povlacili, cetnici su nas iznenadili u jednom selu i tada sam ranjen
u ruku, noge, glavu. Postrojba je otisla na odmor, ja u Splitsku
bolnicu. Taj dan, kada me Kraljevic trebao posjetiti, nas zapovjednik
iz Mostara ga pozvao rekavsi da ima problema sa HVO-om. Rekao je da
su ih opkolili i postavili snajpere oko zgrade. Kada se Kraljevic,
nakon sastanka, vracao iz Mostara, ubili su ga. Bilja je to klasicna
zasjeda postavljena u obliku potkovice. U momentu kada je auto
naisao, istovremeno su poceli pucati cetiri pozicije zabranjenim
oruzjem kalibra 5,45 i mitraljezima M84. Svi su bili na mjestu mrtvi.
10.8 sam napustio bolnicu i na sastanku koji je vodio Dapic i Mile
Dedakovic, uz suglasnost ostalih, imenovan sam zapovjednikom HOS-a u
Hercegovini.

[Boris Petrov]

"Nacional" - 26. veljace '97 (Drska objest Tudjmanovih)

"Nacional" - 26. veljace 1997.

Naslovi - naslovna stranica:

* Nezapamceni kulturni skandal - Humanitarna zaklada za djecu
Hrvatske tiskala je putem policijske "Agencije za komercijalnu
djelatnost" razglednice sa stotinjak motiva najznacajnijih hrvatskih
likovnih umjetnika, ukljucujuci i djecji rad - Predsjednikove kceri
(m.n.: sada po zlu cuvene korumpirane mesetarke)

* Zaklada Ankice Tudjman uvrstila je skolski rad Nevenke Tudjman na
cestitke medju 100 najpoznatijih djela hrvatskih slikara

* Drzavni restauratorski zavod obnovio je 20 djecjih slika Nevenke
Tudjman

Moja napomena: Objest, drskost i rasipanje novaca preko noci
najbogatijeg obiteljskog klana HDZ mafije preraslo je vec odavno u
smijesnu no opasnu patologiju a hrvatsku drzavu rusi na razinu
tragi-komicne banana-drzavice. Osjecaja za realnost kod obitelji
Tudjman vec odavno vise nema. Treba ju im servirati izborima i onda
- sudjenjima. Boris Petrovcic

[Aleksandar Erkalovic]

Damir Sokcevic (sokc...@thphys.irb.hr) wrote:

: In <01bc2903$7bf92ee0$LocalHost@aleksans> "Aleksandar Sarovic" <aleks...@front.net> writes:

: >Martin Graiter <mag...@algonet.se> wrote in article

: >> Your country has already made it it's business to interfere in balkan

: >> matters.
: >> Mostly by helping the Serbs in different ways.

: >Yes, specially by sanctions and bombing.

: Yes, that was only a small "make-up" to hide the crime. Not allowing us to
: by weappons for the defence was a real help to Serbs

a u biti sve je bilo zato jer je CIA htjela prikriti iznenadnu pojavu
letecih tanjura iiznad Bosne pa su izmislili neku super stvar da to zataskaju.
a onda su dosli rusi i stavili veto jer se radilo o istol nlo-u koji je pao
u sibiru... miiiiiisssssssssslllllliiiiiiiiiimmmmmmmm
a onda je pobjegao frajer iz CIA-e koji je ubio J.F.K.-a u Bosnu kao fanaticni
muslimanski fundamentalisa(nakon citanja majn kamfa i ostalih gluposti kad
se zaludio SS-om i islamom).. i onda su ga htjeli ufatiti pa su poslali
IFOR... mnogi to ne znaju, ali ja sam to sve sam prokljuvio :-)

--
Ja na konju
oni dole
Bog te jebo
sto me vole

[Robert Kaplan]

Martin Graiter wrote:

>
> Michel Maisonneuve <mic...@io.org> wrote:
>
> > You have to re-read your history, Martin
> >
> > It was the Serbs who helped the Jews then
> >
> > And Croatians were nazis
> >
> > Michel
> > The muslims don't count
>

> Really? I wonder what history books you've been reading?

I think he's been reading real history books, the poor misguided soul.
He should stick to the Nazi internet sites, like you do, and don't let
historical facts interfere with his prejudice.

Does the word USTASE mean anything to you?
>

>
> A very small part of the Croatians were nazis, fewer than in France or
> Hungary for
> instance. Yet we are still depicted as the worst people in the world.
> Thanks a lot.
>
> It is not decent of you to say these things when the base for it is the
> history-writing of those that hate us so much.
>
> Greets, Martin
>

Poor victims of the British, American, French and other historians, who
have soiled thair reputation, the Ustase were really the Croat version
of the boy scouts, mostly helping elderly Jews and Serbs to cross the
street.

Seriously now: One of the nazi ploys is to deny historical facts.
They'll tell you with a straight face that the Holocaust never happened,
that the Croats tried to save Jews during the war, or whatever. They
even set up Internet sites to spread their poison.

Facts, as anybody who is familiar with the history of WWII knows, are
that the Ustase, the Croatian nazi government, was famous even by nazi
standards for their brutality against Jews and Serbs, that the Ustase
had the wholehearted support of the Croatian population, and that the
current Croat strongman, Franjo Tudjman, has refused to condemn the
nazi past and has, in fact, tried to resurrect many of the nazi symbols,
such as the currency and the flag.

Robert

[CARLOS POLI]

>On 4 Mar 1997 14:06:49 GMT, "Martin Graiter" <mag...@algonet.se>
>wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>Robert Kaplan <rka...@iamerica.net> wrote:
>>

>>> 2. The Serbs should have a right to self determination, and, if they
>>> want to join Serbia, it's none of our business.
>>

>>Aaah! Good. So at last we'll see new native american states emerge in the
>>US?
>>Them "Aryan" dudes could also get their nazi republics. Welcome to the
>>middle ages!
>>

>>Your country has already made it it's business to interfere in balkan
>>matters.

>>Mostly by helping the Serbs in different ways. Where are all those jews who
>>constantly talk about "we must never forget"? You DID forget. So this time
>>the nazi's didn't wear swastikas, they didn't speak german, and the target
>>wasn't jews. That's all it took to make you "forget". Congratulations.
>>
>>Martin
>

>You have to re-read your history, Martin
>
>It was the Serbs who helped the Jews then
>
>And Croatians were nazis
>
>Michel
>The muslims don't count

and the nazis helped the Jews? Are all very crazy?
--
Carlos Poli
desde Quilmes, provincia de Buenos Aires

[Robert Kaplan]

Vanja wrote:
>
> In article <331cdd78...@news.io.org>, mic...@io.org (Michel
> Maisonneuve) wrote:
>

A great story. And thanks for sharing it.

Please understand that even though I have very little faith in the
possiblility that Bosniak Muslims, especially as hate filled and revenge
bound as they seem to be, can establish a truly secular and multiethnic
democratic government, I do not even remotely support the actions of
Mladic and his gang. OK? They *are* a bunch of bastards. My point is,
the place is now so poisoned and filled with hate and mistrust on all
sides, I don't know how on earth they'll put it back together again. So
maybe partition is the best solution.

Look honestly at yourself and your friends. Are you all ready to forgive
and forget, and accept the Serbs as neighbors?

Looking back, it seems obvious that the issue of the nationalities
should have been resolved BEFORE they broke up Yugoslavia.
Unfortunately, the Krauts and Tudjman were in too big of a hurry. Can't
roll back the tape and write a different ending.

Robert

[CARLOS POLI]

>
>>and then they would decide they do not want to be a minority in a Muslim
>>state.
>

>Why? Muslims treat minorities with traditional benevolence. The Jews in Spain
>offer a paramount example. And even the notorious beduinat in this territory
>counts three Jews in the innermost sanctuary of the tribe. About the case of
>the Islamic Republic of Iran I don't dare talking, then you; Mr. Kaplan, are
>the scholar in this case.
>
>Cheers
>
>Viktor Arevalo
>

The Metropolitan Rosario Autorithy, wich operates Rosario Court and Rosario
Muslim Church, has contracted with Joseph Goodnegas of Spain, to upgrade all
communications systems at both muslims churchs around the world. Withing the
next two years, muslims arriving to Rosario need autorization of patriarc of
Balcarce St.

[dd chukurov]

Martin Graiter, a Croat living in Sweden wrote:
>
> Michel Maisonneuve <mic...@io.org> wrote:
>

> > You have to re-read your history, Martin
> >
> > It was the Serbs who helped the Jews then
> >
> > And Croatians were nazis
> >
> > Michel
> > The muslims don't count
>

> Really? I wonder what history books you've been reading?
>

> The first "jew-free" country in Hitler's Europe was Serbia. It was
> eager Serb collaborators who saw to this. The Serb Patriarch at the
> time sat in Auschwitz himself, yet this didn't stop him him from
> praising Hitler and how good it was that he "cleansed" Europe from
> Jews.

[ rest of this Croatian bastard's lies deleted ...]

> Greets, Martin

Let us for the sanity sake review a short entry in US Holocaust
Museum's handout. Those with a bit of piddly brain and who read
more than Croatian President Tudjman's Holocaust revisionst books
know that the WWII Independent State of Croatia (current Croatia
plus Bosnia-Herzgvna and parts of Serbia) were Hitler's allies
and have independently killed off its Jewish, Serbs and Roma
population. Serbia, at that time was occupied by German forces
and it was them who took the credit for "Jew Free" Serbia. Let's
see that "The Holocaust in Serbia" entry in the US HM's handout.

BTW, the concentration camp in Semlin (Zemun) mentioned in this
piece was a part of WWII Croatia, not Serbia. Additionaly, Martin's
imbecile comments on supposed Serbian Patriarch's praise of Hitler,
from the concentration camp no less (WHAT AN IDIOT THI CRO MUST BE)
need no further clarification. --ddc

==== begin guote ===
Title: GENOCIDE IN YUGOSLAVIA DURING THE HOLOCAUST

United States Holocaust Museum
[by Christopher R. Browning, Pacific Lutheran University]
[...]

[A box at the bottom of the second page]

Sub-head: The Holocaust in Serbia

On May 29, 1942, the German embassy in Belgrade reported to Berlin,
"The Jewish Question in Serbia is no longer acute." Serbia was, in
fact, the first region of the Nazi Empire outside the Soviet
territory to be declared "free of Jews."

The precipitous destruction of the Serbian Jews began in the summer
of 1941, when the German army routinely executed "Jews and communists"
in response to Partisan attacks. The "retailation" policy was
systematized by the German High Command with an order in mid-
September 1941, to shoot 50-100 communists for every German soldier
killed by the resistance. The local commander, Austrian General Franz
Bohme, not only chose the highest ratio, 100-1, but on his own
initiative expanded the retailation pool to include male Jews and Roma
(Gypsies).

As sufficient numbers of communists to fill the retailation quotas
were difficult ot capture, interned Jews and Roma were a much easier
target. By November 1941, German army firing squads had murdered
almost the entire adult male Jewish and Romani population of Serbia.

In December 1941, Jewish women, children and elderly were interned
in a camp at Semlin, across the Sava river from Belgrade. In March
1942, after a winter of terrible hardship for prisoners of Semlin, a
gas van arived from Berlin. Every morning, except Sundays and
holidays, and two or three afternoons each week, the gas van picked up
victims at the Semlin camp, drove across the one undemaged bridge span
over the Sava River and through downtown Belgrade to the burial site
at Avala.

The Jews were, of course, dead upon arrival. By late May, Semlin was
empty of Jews, and Serbia was declared judenfrei.

[Photo with caption: German shooting of hostages, Panzewo, Serbia]

== end of the quote ==

[dd chukurov]

``It was the president of the republic (Franjo
Tudjman) who awarded them.''

Thu, 07 Nov 96 10:25:13 PST
Croatia grants awards to Nazi-era war veterans

ZAGREB, Croatia (Reuter) - Thirteen veteran officers who
served with the Croatian forces allied with Nazi Germany during
World War II were awarded equivalent ranks in the country's
present-day army, officials said Monday.
The move was intended to rehabilitate the men, many of whom
suffered persecution under Communist rule in former Yugoslavia.
It was the latest incident in which state honors were
granted to men who fought in Croatia's Nazi-era military units.
The ranks were presented at a conference of the Croatian war
veterans' organization, the Hrvatski Domobran (Croatian
Homeguard), in the eastern town of Pozega Sunday.
Dragutin Franjic, head of the veteran's organization, said
the men had served in military units of the Independent State of
Croatia (NDH), which broke away from Yugoslavia after the Nazis
invaded the Balkans in 1941.
It was a puppet regime of Adolf Hitler's Third Reich and its
Ustasha government became notorious for murdering hundreds of
thousands of Serbs and Jews during World War II.
Franjic refused to say whether the officers were members of
the Domobrani, the then-regular Croatian conscript army, or the
Ustasha militia, a Nazi military formation, responsible for
wartime atrocities.
``We only handed over the ranks and the medals,'' Franjic
told Reuters. ``It was the president of the republic (Franjo
Tudjman) who awarded them.''
Opposition leaders and old communists have often accused
Croatia's nationalist government of veiled attempts to whitewash
its World War II record and rehabilitate fascists.
But the government argues that it only wants to reconcile
victims of the fighting in World War II.
Last weekend some 125 bodies of soldiers, including
Domobrani, Ustashe and two Communist resistance fighters, killed
in World War II, were reburied at a cemetery in the southern
town of Omis despite protests from Jewish political groups.
Croatia's 1941-45 collaboration with the Nazis became a
political tool for Yugoslav Communists who restrained Croatian
nationalism inside the Balkan federation for decades.

[Aleksandar Sarovic]

Damir Sokcevic <sokc...@thphys.irb.hr> wrote in article
<331d9...@161.53.129.19>...

> In <01bc2903$7bf92ee0$LocalHost@aleksans> "Aleksandar Sarovic"
<aleks...@front.net> writes:
>
> >Martin Graiter <mag...@algonet.se> wrote in article

> >> Your country has already made it it's business to interfere in balkan
> >> matters.
> >> Mostly by helping the Serbs in different ways.
>

> >Yes, specially by sanctions and bombing.
>
> Yes, that was only a small "make-up" to hide the crime. Not allowing us to
> by weappons for the defence was a real help to Serbs

It is a pity for Croatia that has Croats like you.

[Aleksandar Sarovic]

Martin Graiter <mag...@algonet.se> wrote in article

<01bc298f$935dee40$b55d...@algonet.se.news.algonet.se>...

>
>
> Michel Maisonneuve <mic...@io.org> wrote:
>
> > You have to re-read your history, Martin
> >
> > It was the Serbs who helped the Jews then
> >
> > And Croatians were nazis
> >
> > Michel
> > The muslims don't count
>
> Really? I wonder what history books you've been reading?
>
> The first "jew-free" country in Hitler's Europe was Serbia. It was eager
> Serb
> collaborators who saw to this. The Serb Patriarch at the time sat in
> Auschwitz
> himself, yet this didn't stop him him from praising Hitler and how good it
> was
> that he "cleansed" Europe from Jews.
>

> At the same time, a truly good man, cardinal Stepinec tried to save as many
> Jews
> as possible. Hiding them in his church, temporarily converting them to
> catholicism, intervening and protesting with the (nazi) authorities. But
> what happened? The communists turned him into a criminal, blackening
> everything good he did. Not a single Jew stood up in defence.
>

> A very small part of the Croatians were nazis, fewer than in France or
> Hungary for
> instance. Yet we are still depicted as the worst people in the world.
> Thanks a lot.
>
> It is not decent of you to say these things when the base for it is the
> history-writing of those that hate us so much.
>
> Greets, Martin
>

Really? I wonder what history books you've been reading?

Aleksandar

[grea...@mindspring.com]

dd chukurov wrote:
>
> Martin Graiter, a Croat living in Sweden wrote:
> >

> > Michel Maisonneuve <mic...@io.org> wrote:
> >
> > > You have to re-read your history, Martin
> > >
> > > It was the Serbs who helped the Jews then
> > >
> > > And Croatians were nazis
> > >
> > > Michel
> > > The muslims don't count
> >
> > Really? I wonder what history books you've been reading?
> >
> > The first "jew-free" country in Hitler's Europe was Serbia. It was
> > eager Serb collaborators who saw to this. The Serb Patriarch at the
> > time sat in Auschwitz himself, yet this didn't stop him him from
> > praising Hitler and how good it was that he "cleansed" Europe from
> > Jews.
>

> [ rest of this Croatian bastard's lies deleted ...]

<snip>
The person dd chukurov a Serb is a vicious Jew hater who supports
and has the exact same Neo-Nazi propaganda as National Alliance admirers
of Adolf Hitler.

Herman

[Viktor Arevalo]

Lo que hace falta es una Republica Croto Comunista!

Viktor Arevalo

[Boris Petrov]

Upravo privatno primio izvrstan odgovor:

Nema nikakve sumnje da je Tudjmanova obitelj doista
moralno "poludjela", posto odavno nema nikakvih
skrupula.

[Boris Petrov]

Message: 4
To: cro-...@well.ox.ac.uk
Forwarded - Should be outstanding

Sorry for the late notice. This great event is tonight (Thursday)!

******* ********* ************ ************ ***************

"FROM DEATH LINES TO DEADLINES"

A reporter as witness in Bosnia

ANNA HUSARSKA
KNIGHT FELLOW, STANFORD UNIVERSITY
SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT FOR THE NEW REPUBLIC

Thursday, March 6, 1997
7:00 pm
Tressidder Student Union
Oak East Room
Stanford University
Stanford, CA

Join us for an absolutely fascinating speech by a
pre-eminent journalist of our time.

Anna Husarska's dispatches made a difference in how
citizens of the world reacted to the war in Bosnia.

Sponsored by Students Against Genocide (SAGE)

[Hrvoje Niksic]

Vlatko Juric-Kokic <vko...@jagor.srce.hr> writes:

> Yep. They were disgusting bastards who tried to exterminate everybody and
> everything.

Nonsense. That's what the Communist history textbooks say.

--
Hrvoje Niksic <hni...@srce.hr> | Student at FER Zagreb, Croatia
--------------------------------+--------------------------------
Speak softly and carry a +6 two-handed sword.

[Viktor Arevalo]

>Nema nikakve sumnje da je Tudjmanova obitelj doista
>moralno "poludjela", posto odavno nema nikakvih
>skrupula.

Muy bien, lo bueno que tienen estas gentes es que escriben en un idioma que
todos dominamos!

Saludos cordiales

Viktor Arevalo

[Boris Petrov]

Borba za Hrvatsku i Tudjmanova veleizdaja

"Bog i Hrvati"

Slobodna Bosna
25.8.1996

(Moja napomena: U nizem (prvom) clanku ima olake
upotrebe rijeci "ustasa" koja je, usput, u hrvatskoj vojnoj i
drzavnoj terminologiji bila u upotrebi vec 1890 (vidi na pr.
Kosuticevu knigu "Hrvatsko domobranstvo", str. 11, faksimil
"Upute glede pucko ustaske sluzbe"). Niti je HOS bio
"ustaski, niti HDZ-ovski HVO "protuustaski"; to su krivi i
namjerno iskrivljeni termini. Ustaski pokret, koji je toliko
zla nanio i Hrvatskoj i Bosni je zavrsio 1945 porazom,
sramnim bijegom i isporukom vojske i naroda na
komunisticku klaonicu (a poceo je uzasnim mucenjima
rodoljubnih Hrvata vec u talijanskom zatocenistvu na
Liparima debelo prije Drugog svjetskog rata). I slijepcu je
odmah bilo jasno da je Tudjmanov poslovicni kukavicluk i
njegova posljedica - surovanje i kolaboracija sa cetnickim
zivotinjama - sramna izdaja koja je produzila rat i nanjela i
Hrvatskoj i Bosni patnje i ogromne ratne zrtve. Tudjman se
je plasio hrvatskog naroda i vojnih pobjeda HOS-a (i kod
Vukovara i u Bosni i Hercegovini), a posebno jer je uvidio da
hrvatske pobjede ugrozavaju njegov ostanak na hrvatskoj
grbaci. Sukob svih cestitih hrvatskih rodoljuba, pa i
pripadnika HOS-a sa Tudjmanovom neokomunistickom
mafijom je samo i jedino to - cestitost i rodoljublje sa
boljsevickim lopovima i veleizdajnicima; udrobiti tu price o
"ustastvu" je - u najmanju ruku -bedastoca)

BOG i HRVATI

"Za dom!", "Spremni.", "Za dom!", "Spremni."

I jos sedam puta, iz stotine grla, cule su se ove iste rijeci pod
vrelim hercegovackim suncem. U crno uniformirani vojnici, sa ustaskim
oznakama, kod zgrade staba HOS-a, uz okupljene civile, ispracali su
poginule suborce. Ljubuska glavna ulica je razdvajala HOS-ovce od
vojnika HVO-a koji su, augusta '92., sa oruzjem na nisanu, pratili
komemoraciju zapovjedniku HOS-a Blazu Kraljevicu i osmerici njegovih
pratilaca izresetanih iz zasjede koja je postavljena u Krusevu na putu
Mostar-Ljubuski. Devet govornika (medju njima Ante Dapic i Mile
Dedakovic Jastreb) zavrsilo je svoj komemorativni govor pozdravom
NDH-a "Za dom," ispracajuci na pocinak ideju o Sahovnici na Drini.
Nacionalromanticari HOS-a su ostali da se vrate, u skladu sa recenicom
ispisanom na spomen ploci u Krusevu "ko' mrka, teska prijetnja." I
vratili su se 9. augusta ove godine da ponove kako je HSP najstarija
stranka, da se prebroje i ustanove znaci li ukidanje "Herceg-Bosne"
pocetak njihovog uspona. Ustase su se, naime, povukle u opoziciju kada
je HVO pucem preuzeo vlast u zapadnoj Hercegovini (zapravo
"Herceg-Bosni") i kada su im nakon ulaska u Trebinje, zavrsni udarac
zadali vlastiti sunarodnici. Tacnije, Kaznjenicka bojna "HZ HB" pod
vodstvom Mladena Naletilica Tute.

- Da je Kraljevic ziv, granica bi bila na Drini, a on u crnoj uniformi
sa oznakama HOS-a na mjestu ministra obrane BiH - svoju lojalnost
Kraljevicu objasnjava Mladen Bosnjak. Po politickoj vokaciji on je
desnicar, po politickoj mitologiji sljedbenik Ante Pavelica
("Pavelicevo ucenje je dogma"), profesionalno pripadnik jedne
domobranske pukovnije. Kada spomene Kraljevicevo ime, oci mu potamne,
brada se isturi kao Musolinijeva ugravirana na medaljonu koji su mu
italijanski fasisti poklonili prilikom nedavne posjete zapadnoj
Hercegovini.

Predsjednik HSP-a Zdravko Hrstic, odgovarajuci na pitanje sta se u
zapadnoj Hercegovini promijenilo pogibijom Kraljevica, kaze: Ubijena
je ideja o granici na Drini. HVO je '92. bio marginalan i ne bi
postojao da se nije desio zlocin na Krusevu. Da nije bilo HVO-a, bilo
bi i mnogo manje grobova i mezara, a nasa bi straza bila na Drini
sastavljena od postrojbi Handzar divizije i Crne legije. Za
raskomadanu djecu u Ahmicima optuzuju ustase, sto je uvreda za nas
prave ustase. Jer dok je HOS funkcionirao na ovim prostorima, sukoba
katolika i muslimana nije bilo. Prve postrojbe HOS-a su formirane da
se bore protiv jedinog zla - cetnika.

Pod misterioznim okolnostima su ubijene tri najharizmaticnije osobe
hercegovackih Hrvata: Ante Paradzik, Ludvig Pavlovic i Blaz Kraljevic.
- Svi su bili Bosanci. Likvidirani su jer su mogli povuci mase, ili
sto je slucaj Kralejvica, ostvariti vojne uspjehe. Nakon ovih
likvidacija, HSP i HOS je poceo da se rastace, a HVO jaca - objasnjava
poznati analiticar hronologiju uspostavljanja fasizma.

MUSLIMANSKA PORODICA U HB REVOLUCIJI

Porodica u rat usla sa iluzijama o bratstvu i jedinstvu. Na popisu
stanovnistva su se izjasnjavali kako Jugosloveni. Krizu identiteta
prezivjeli su za vrijeme rata sa Srbima. Sve iluzije izgubili za
vrijeme rata sa Hrvatima. Muslimani sa velikim m, malim m, Bosnjaci,
Bosanci, bilo kako da su se izjasnjavali, istjerani su pred svoje
ulaze i odvedeni na Heliodrom. Sjecaju se gomile kljuceva od stanova i
gomile licnih karti koje su odlagali ulazeci u zatvor. Ispod prozora
sada slusaju revolveraske obracune medju samim Hrvatima.

U stanu na zidu mala ikona, mada su u trecoj fazi samoidentifikacije
ustanovili da pripadaju islamu, i zovu se nadimcima koji hrvatski
zvuce. - Ima finih ljudi svugdje - objasnjavaju mi svoj zivot na
zapadnoj obali. Stisavaju radio kada pocinju bh. vijesti. - Fino nam
je, dobro je kako je bilo. Onda ulazimo sa balkona u stan jer je
poceta neugodna tema, zatvaraju se balkoni i prozori. Vani od sparine
muhe padaju u nesvijest.

ISTOCNO OD RAJA

Firma "HB" je sto se Washingtona tice, zatvorena. Prije toga
izvrijedjana (na sastanku u UN, jos za Bobanovog doba, doticnom je
receno da sve stanovnistvo "HB" moze stati u zgradu World Trade
Centra), njeni predstavnici ismijani (New York Times pise da Brajkovic
funkcionira kao nekadasnji pripadnici chikashke mafije), ali bez
izgleda da ce "HB" prestati funkcionirati istog momenta kada se kaze
da je ukinuta.

U sredisnjici HDZ-a, reagiraju diplomatski. - "Herceg-Bosna" se samo
preobrazava u novi kvalitet. I prenosi se izvorno pravo naroda u novi
drzavni oblik - kaze zvanicnik "HB."

Kancelarije sredisnjice izgledaju kao centar biznisa na Wall Streetu,
sa ogromnim prozorima, ulastenim parketom, kompjuterima, modernim
namjestajem - enterijerom 20. vijeka, ipak utemeljenje postojanju "HB"
nalaze u teorijama kasnog srednjeg vijeka.

- "Herceg Bosna" je izraz suverenosti hrvatskog naroda. Citav evropski
kontinent je utemeljen na suverernosti nacija. Da je nije bilo, Hrvate
nitko ne bi pitao nizasto, bili bi manjina. Hrvati su se uvijek
afirmativno izrazavali o BiH. I prilikom glasovanja na referendumu i
cinjenicom da "Herceg-Bosna" nikada nije omedjena.

HDZ nema ideologiju oko koje bi mogao strukturirati uspostavljanje
drzave. Jedino na cemu je mogla opstojati "HB" kao zajednica bila je
mrznja prema konstruiranom neprijatelju. Stoga se agresivnost, umjesto
vani, okrenula unutra, u obracun sa muslimanskom manjinom. Zapovjednik
brigade HVO-a smijenjen je kada je odbio naredjenje za otvaranje
logora jer je Dretelj morao biti zatvoren.

Dragan Zigu, nezavisnog kandidata na mostarskim izborima, cetverica su
hrvatskih specijalaca isprebijala, uz rijeci: "Majku ti cigansku, ti
ces se kandidirati na izborima. Rasprodao je sve i odselio u
Francusku. U jednom razgovoru o sugradjanima Hrvatima kaze -
Svojevremeno se nisu prepali JNA, a, evo, vec godinama zive pod
terorom sake razbojnika na celu sa dva kriminalca. Zavaraju ih laznim
geslom borbe protiv muslimana. I drugi kandidat, Jole Musa, nalazi se
u svojevrsnom egzilu. - Dvadeset i cetiri sata evropska policija pod
prismotrom drzi njegovu kucu - kaze jedan americki posmatrac.

- Svi su osudjeni na svoje Cace i Cele, Arkane i Mauzere, objasnjava
mi prestavnik vrhovne vlasti "HB" teror u zapadnom dijelu Mostara.

Radoslav Dodig, poslanik u Skupstini Federacije i meta "unutranje
agresivnosti," jer ne misli sto i vecina, rezimira: - Uvijek sam drzao
da su Hrvati napravili kiks kada su presentirali ideju o
"Herceg-Bosni." Ona se pojavila u uzem krugu ljudi, politicki
lobiranih iz Zagreba. Njeni pobornici kazu da se hrvatski narod morao
samoorganizirati. To stoji. Ono sto smeta je to sto je taj nacin
samoorganiziranja bio imitacija srpskog. Pobornici "HB," recimo
Jadranko Prlic, reci ce vam da su organizirani oblici financijskog
poslovanja. On kaze da nema inflacije u "HB." To je apsurd. Na
finansijskom planu nije uradjeno nista.

Buducnost "HB" Dodig vidi sumorn: Lose ce proci Hrvati u srednjoj
Bosni, gospodarski ce nastadati zapadna Hercegovina jer je izgubila
trziste. Ovdje je poljoprivreda zamrla. Opet ce doci do egzodusa kao
nekada, kada se islo na privremeni rad u inozemstvo. Na vizuelnoj
ravni dobar izgled Hercegovine su Potemkinova sela. Ispred svake kuce
je neka tenda, prodavnica, ili kafic. Jedni drugima prodajemo.

Prema nekim procjenama, iz zapadne Hercegovine je iseljeno od '94. do
sada 10-15 posto stanovnistva, dok zapadni dio Mostara ima samo 25
posto starosjedilaca. Livanjski gvardijan je zakukao da ostaje bez
vjernika, kao pastir bez stada.

HRVATSKI FUNDAMENTALIZAM

Medjugorje dvije noci prije praznika Velike Gospe svjetluca iz mraka
kao generalski orden na crnom barsunu.

Je li to mjesto izvoriste hrvatskog nacionalizma? Jeli i ukazanje Gospe
uticalo da se hercegovacki Hrvati osjete odabranim narodom? Je li 15
miliona hodcasnika ojacalo katolicki fundamentalizam kome granice
drzava nisu svetinja kakva su bezboznim krscanima moderne zapadne
politike?

Mozda. U trenutku ushicenja koje prolazi brze nego ukazanje. Upravo
blizu Medjugorja, a prije toga i u Capljini, franjevci su zazidali
vrata sopstvenih crkvi. Prica nije nova. Indikativan je momenat kada
se opet obnavlja sukob (posljednji je bio pocetkom 70-tih) svjetovnih,
biskupskih svecenika, petrovaca ili popova, kako ih jednostavno zovu,
i redovnika, franjevaca. Petrovci imaju strukturiranu hijerarhiju i
zupanije sirom BiH. Mostarski biskup Peric "pokriva" i istocnu
Hercegovinu. Sa njegovog stanovista, jedinstvena Bosna je potreban i
prihvatljiv politicki okvir jer granice njegovih zupanija geografski
prelaze zapadnu Hercegovinu. Franjevci nisu birokratizirani kao
petrovci i njihova komunikacija sa Vatikanom tece direktno preko
provincijala. Hercegovacki franjevci su se presutno slozili sa
postojanjem "Herceg-Bosne" (ima i izuzetaka, fra Jozo Zovko je
"Herceg-Bosnu" nazvao nedozrela fantazija) kada su vidjeli da se njene
granice, od Sujice (Duvno) do Stoca, poklapaju sa hercegovackom
franjevackom provincijom.

U skladu sa starim dogovorom, u krajnjoj liniji ucenjem da je
franjecima mjesto u samostanima a popovima u narodu, mostarski biskup
Peric je zatrazio da franjevci isela iz nekoliko zupa na desnoj obali
Neretve i vrate ih biskupijskim svecenicima. Don Djuro Bender (brat
Ivana Bendera) treba preuzeti crkvu u Capljini. Franjevci su protiv,
pokrenuli organizaciju "Mir i dobro," koja je postojala i 70-tih
godina, zazidali su vrata crkve i cekaju pomoc iz Medjugorja koje
mostarski biskup Peric ne priznaje kao vjerski fenomen.

Postoje mnogobrojne relacije zapadna Hercegovina - Banski dvori -
Vatikan. Jedna od njih tece preko Tudjmanovog bliskog saradnika Jure
Radica, ciji stariji brat "radi" u Vatikanu. Radic je, opet, u
prijateljskim odnosima sa Hrvojem Socom, rektorom mostarskog
Sveucilista, i vaznom osobom u zapadnohercegovackom miljeu. Cinjenica
da su biskupski svecenici upravo sada od franjevaca zatrazili svoje
zupe nazad pokazuje da su ukidanje "Herceg-Bosne" primili k znanju kao
gotov fakat.

- Slike zazidane crkve su obisle svijet. Sada ce nas opet gledati ko
divljake kojima nista nije sveto, kaze mi poznanik. U "ruzicastoj
jutarnjoj magli" sjedimo na stepenicama svjeze okrecene crkve."

- Hrvatska vas nece. Bosanci vas se boje. Za svijet ste mafija. Ostali
ste sami - rezimiram svoje shvatanje zapadne Hercegovine.

- Nije tacno. Bog je sa nama.

[vanja]

In article <331E10...@iamerica.net>, rka...@iamerica.net wrote:

> Vanja wrote:
> >
> > In article <331cdd78...@news.io.org>, mic...@io.org (Michel
> > Maisonneuve) wrote:
> >
> > > On 4 Mar 1997 14:06:49 GMT, "Martin Graiter" <mag...@algonet.se>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >Robert Kaplan <rka...@iamerica.net> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> 2. The Serbs should have a right to self determination, and, if they
> > > >> want to join Serbia, it's none of our business.
> > > >
> > > >Aaah! Good. So at last we'll see new native american states emerge in the
> > > >US?
> > > >Them "Aryan" dudes could also get their nazi republics. Welcome to the
> > > >middle ages!
> > > >

> > > >Your country has already made it it's business to interfere in balkan
> > > >matters.

> > > >Mostly by helping the Serbs in different ways. Where are all those
jews who
> > > >constantly talk about "we must never forget"? You DID forget. So
this time
> > > >the nazi's didn't wear swastikas, they didn't speak german, and the
target
> > > >wasn't jews. That's all it took to make you "forget". Congratulations.
> > > >
> > > >Martin
> > >

> > > You have to re-read your history, Martin
> > >
> > > It was the Serbs who helped the Jews then
> > >
> > > And Croatians were nazis
> > >
> > > Michel
> > > The muslims don't count
> >

I agree. The communist government should have taken more seriously the
national question of Yugoslavia. But that was simply not possible because
the federal insitutions of Yugoslavia were largely dominated by Serbs.

As for Bosnia today, the only way we can have a democratic and multiethnic
Bosnia if we in the West help those people, and not give up on them. We
must understand who are the victims and who are the aggressors. We must
understand the bitterness the victims of the genocide feel. But we must
help them overcome their bitterness and find "good people" on the other
side. Myself, I never blamed all the Serbs. I know good people among the
Serbs. I have lsot Serb friends in the war defending Sarajevo from
Mladic's forces. But i Have not suffered as much as many other Bosniaks
did. We must help them restore trust with each other, and not give up our
hands, and say "they are all the same." That is why I urge you, Mr.
Kaplan, to take onthe campaign of Americxan involvement in the restoration
of the ties between the Bosniaks, Serbs and Croats, and not strenthening
their mistrusts.

vanja

[Vlatko Juric-Kokic]

On Wed, 5 Mar 1997, Robert Kaplan wrote:
> Facts, as anybody who is familiar with the history of WWII knows, are
> that the Ustase, the Croatian nazi government, was famous even by nazi
> standards for their brutality against Jews and Serbs,

Yep. They were disgusting bastards who tried to exterminate everybody and
everything. But you obvoiously don't know or don't care to know that a lot
of Croats ended in their concentration camps.

> that the Ustase
> had the wholehearted support of the Croatian population, and that the
> current Croat strongman, Franjo Tudjman, has refused to condemn the
> nazi past and has, in fact, tried to resurrect many of the nazi symbols,
> such as the currency and the flag.

But this really shows what a stupid and ignorant cretin you are.

First, ever heard of partisans? Do you think that only Serbs and Jews were
in the partisans? Or you, as usual, don't care for facts?

Second, why the current Croatian strongman, Franjo Tudjman, was invited to
the V-E celebration? Because he was a member of Ustashas?

Third, neither the currency nor the flag were invented by Ustashas.

Aaah, why do I argue with an illiterate, bigoted, ignorant ... creature?

Robert Kaplan, you're a troll, and I hope you'll turn to stone when
daylight arrives to your place.

--
vko...@r101.com.hr | I have an attitude and |
vko...@public.srce.hr | I'm not afraid to use it.|

[Barry S. Marjanovich]

On Wed, 5 Mar 1997, Michel Maisonneuve wrote:

> It was the Serbs who helped the Jews then
>
> And Croatians were nazis
>
> Michel
> The muslims don't count

sssssssssssssssssssssssssssss
Servians Hide Their Nazi Past
sssssssssssssssssssssssssssss

The Calgary Sun, Feb. 22, 1993:

Wartime Whitewash
by Paul Jackson

Sitting in the Ban Cafe in Zagreb, Jakov Sedlar looked at me and said, "I
simply had to get a female voice for the narration. No man could ever
tell the story with the quiet sympathy demanded."

Sedlar, artistic director of the Croatian National Theatre in Zagreb, was
telling me about his 20-minute documentary THE UNTOLD HOLOCAUST, and how
he persuaded Sally Kellerman - known internationally for her portrayal of
Major "Hot Lips" Houlihan in the movie version of M*A*S*H - to talk about
death rather than joy.

THE UNTOLD HOLOCAUST tells the story of Serbia's wartime genocide against
its Jewish population between 1941 and 1945. I'd been pointed in its
direction by Zlatan Gleb, of the Zagreb Jewish Community Centre.

Wartime Croatia, then governed by the pro-Nazi administration has been
condemned for decades for its treatment of the Jews. Yet, said Gleb,
Serbia's treatment of its Jewish population was even worse. But, until
Sedlar came along, Serbia had managed to conveniently whitewash its own
anti-Semitic past.

Sedlar is a remarkable man. Urbane and articulate, he's driven not just
by artistic endeavour, but by a search for truth.

"I fully admit Croatia's record during the Second World War was not one
of merit, but while accepting this, I also believe that fault on all
sides needs to be exposed in the name of justice and history."

With the coming to Croatia of democracy and freedom from Serb-dominated
Communist Yugoslavia, Sedlar was able to produce his harrowing
documentary about the untold holocaust - the destruction of the Jewish
community in wartime Serbia under the Nazi-collaborationist government of
Serbian General Milan Nedic.

Kellerman's captivating voice eerily dominates the film - her tone can
best be described as that of a gentle sadness. It's a haunting film, for
sure.

The movie carefully details Serbia's anti-Semitic campaign: Jews were not
allowed to own a radio or even use a telephone. They couldn't visit the
theatre or cinema. That was just the beginning. As the war progressed,
Serbian police rounded up Jews for delivery to Nazi extermination camps.
For every captured Jew, Serbian police received a cash bounty. Belgrade
was actually the first city in Europe to be declared JUDENFREI - free of
Jews. Nedic's government passed a law declaring all Jewish property was
now the property of Serbs.

The footage in THE UNTOLD HOLOCAUST is graphic, and so well documented
it's hard to understand how this ugly secret could be hidden for so long.
Kellerman provides the reason, "The answer is the oldest one of all," she
says, "the victors write the history."

When Josip Tito's Serb-dominated Communists took over power at the end of
the war it was convenient for them to cast Croatia as the fascist state
and whitewash Serbia of its own Nazi past.

Not only Croatian patriots such as Sedlar are now speaking out. Dr.
Philip J. Cohen, a prominent Maryland doctor and historian, recently
complained to ABC News about its one-sided coverage.

"As a Jew," he wrote, "I detest Ustasha and I detest its memory. However
to brand the Croatian people with the Ustasha label is an unjustified
oversimplification."

Cohen says while Croatia's infamous concentration camp at Jasenovac is
often cited in the media, Serbia's equally infamous death camps at
Jabuka, Sajmiste and Jajinci have until now been conveniently forgotten.

It's time, insists Cohen, to recognize that Serbia, today so intent on
the genocide of the Muslim population of Bosnia-Herzegovina, participated
"zealously" in the European holocaust of the Jews.

For himself, Zlatan Gelb told me that under the democratically elected
government, Croatia's Jewish population is today "protected like a bear
in winter."

Gleb, ironically, wrote his masters' of science thesis in communications
by comparing TV coverage of the Calgary and Sarajevo Olympics.

THE UNTOLD HOLOCAUST is a tragic film, but one that should force more
people to face up to hidden demons.

ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssSSSSssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss

[Boris Petrov]

It Sounds Sooo Familiar To Croatians

TIRANA, Albania (AP) - Seven years ago, Sali Berisha was
at the center of Albania's fight to end communism. Now,
the president's former allies see him as one of the greatest
threats to their young democracy.

Whether an agreement Thursday between 10 political
parties will halt an escalating uprising in southern Albania
will depend on Berisha's willingness to compromise -
something he has done little of in the past.

Berisha, a renowned cardiologist, was one of the founders
of the Democratic Party, the anti-Communist force that
grew out of a students' protest movement in Tirana in 1990.

Albania was emerging from a half-century of dictatorship
and isolation, and Berisha - tall, forceful and fluent in
several languages - was elected the party's leader.

When the Democrats swept Albania's second multiparty
elections in March 1992, Berisha became Albania's first
non-Communist president since World War II. As the
results reached the party's headquarters on election night,
party colleagues say they saw another side of their party
chief.

``He passed by our office, without even turning his head,''
said Prec Zogaj, who helped found the party. ``We
understood then that he held all the power - over the
country and over the party.''

Former allies in the party say Berisha was intolerant of
dissent. Though he championed the anti-communist
cause, he didn't seem able to accept the diversity of views
that democracy creates.

That isn't surprising in a country where citizens have had
next to no say in their affairs. Albania was ruled by the
Ottoman Empire for five centuries, then by a monarchy,
and then by East Europe's harshest communist regime.

One of Berisha's first acts in office was to expand the
powers of the presidency. But it was in 1994, when a
government-sponsored referendum on a new constitution
was defeated, that Berisha really turned toward autocratic
rule.

In 1995, the Democrats' chief was sacked because he
criticized Berisha's administration. The government also
got rid of a Supreme Court justice who revoked
convictions against a pair of journalists critical of Berisha.

Independent journalists repeatedly have been harassed
and arrested. Socialist Party leader Fatos Nano was
sentenced in 1994 to 12 years in prison for allegedly
misappropriating funds, a charge international groups
said wasn't supported by the evidence.

The repression intensified during the campaign for May
parliamentary elections, which the Democrats won handily.
The opposition cried foul, and international observers
agreed that the balloting was fraudulent.

Critics also objected to Berisha's re-election Monday by
a parliament dominated by his party, a day after he
declared a state of emergency.

Would Berisha now be willing to step down if that were
necessary to resolve the current crisis? His rivals think
not.

Paskal Milo of the opposition Social Democratic Party
said Bersha's motives in summoning the opposition to
talks on resolving the crisis were only ``a political
maneuver to gain time.''

[Boris Petrov]

A-C Newsletter - 2/28/97 - O Naletilicu-Tuti

"The American-Croatian Newsletter", February 28, 1997
(izvadak prvi)

Bosanski dnevnik - Zagreb

Uhicenje Mladena Tute-Naletilica, zapovjednika tzv. Kaznjenicke
bojne HVO-a (m.n.: koja iz zasjede smakla hrvatskog i bosanskog
generala Blazu Kraljevica), inace visestrukog kriminalca i
dokazanog suradnika Udbe (m.n.: ne suradnika nego visokog
Udbaskog operativca) pretstavlja vise politicki nego pravni cin.
Nema nikakve sumnje da je akcija koju je provela hrvatska policija,
a sam Mladen Naletilic (m.n.: u dijaspori nazivan hrvatskim
Charles Manson-om) uhicen u Splitu, usmjerena na eliminaciju
kriminalnog djela celnistva tzv. Herceg-Bosne koji je s jedne
strane u Bosni i Hercegovini ometao djelovanje Federacije BiH, te
stalno izazivao napetost sa Muslimanima-Bosnjacima, a s druge
strane ozbiljno naskodio polozaju Hrvatske u svijetu. To je dokaz
da je Zagreb (m.n.: to jest HDZ-vska mafijaska komanda
lokalnim podruznicama mafije) na kraju morao popustiti
medjunarodnom pritisku da se oslobodi balasta koji mu je dosad
natovarila na ledja hercegovacka mafija u kojoj je Mladen
Naletilic-Tuta bio samo jedan od glavnih izvrsitelja. (M.n.: Hrvatska
se stvarno moze osloboditi HDZ-ovske mafije tek na dolazecim
izborima a onda izvodjenjem vodecih kriminalaca, poglavito Franje
Tudjmana i Gojka Suska pred sud). Uhicenje Mladena Naletilica i
njegove skupine od dvadesetak suradnika dovodi se u vezu s
"dogadjajima" u Mostaru. Hapsenjem je bitno ugrozen i sam Gojko
Susak kao celnik i glavni naredbodavac "tvrdjoj" hercegovackoj
struji u Zagrebu i Hrvatskoj. (M.n.: Autor Vjekoslav Krsnik sugerira
da ima kao boljih i losijih HDZ-ovskih kriminalaca - no SVI su
kriminalci !)

PS: U istom broju gosp. Krsnik objavljuje jedan dopis - zabunom
pod mojim imenom. Ja se sjecam da sam ga negdje procitao no
nisam autor tog dopisa.

Boris Petrovcic

[Boris Petrov]

Apparently An Honorable Serb Dies (I never heard of
him though)

BELGRADE, Yugoslavia (AP) - Miladin Zivotic, one of
Serbia's most prominent peace activists and a fierce
critic of President Slobodan Milosevic's nationalist
policies, has died. He was 66.

Zivotic died of a heart attack on Feb. 26, the independent
daily Nasa Borba reported last week.

Zivotic, a philosophy professor at Belgrade University,
was the leader of the Belgrade Circle, a tiny group of
intellectuals who spoke against the war and brutality in
former Yugoslavia, and most of all against Serbia's role
in the conflict.

Their firm anti-war stance often was denounced by authorities.
When Serb nationalism, fomented by Milosevic, swept
across former Yugoslavia in the early 1990s and later
throughout the war, Zivotic and his friends were branded as
traitors and national enemies.

Despite the war, Zivotic and his circle managed to keep
close ties with like-minded associates in Bosnia and Croatia.
To stress his disapproval of official Serb policies, Zivotic
visited the Bosnian capital of Sarajevo in 1993, when the
city was under siege by Bosnian Serb forces.

Apart from his peace activities, Zivotic also was known for
his resistance to the dictatorial communist regime in former
Yugoslavia. Zivotic was fired from the university in 1975 for
his pro-democracy stance. He returned in 1987.

``Zivotic always sided with good against evil,'' said Zarko
Korac, a fellow peace activist and Zivotic's friend. ``He will
hold one of the most dignified posts in the history of our
times.''

Zivotic was divorced. He is survived by a son and a daughter.

[Boris Petrov]

Povrat nacionalizirane imovine - obavijest zainteresiranima

PRAVNA USLUGA VLASNICIMA NACIONALIZIRANE IMOVINE

Udruga za suradnju domovine i dijaspore (UDD), Zagreb, Hebrangova 27,
pripravna je iseljenicima zainteresiranima za povrat ili naknadu
imovine u
Hrvatskoj pomoci da kontaktiraju pouzdane advokate.
U prilogu donosimo informaciju o Zakonu o vracanju imovine oduzete u
vrijeme
komunisticke vladavine.
(Molimo one koji prime na E-mail ovu obavijest, a znaju nekoga tko bi
bio za
nju zainteresiran, da ga/ju/njih na to upozore. Hvala.)

-----------------------------------------
PROMEMORIA

U Republici Hrvatskoj primjenjuju se od 01.01.1997. Zakon o vracanju
imovine
oduzete za vrijeme komunisticke Jugoslavenske vladavine (dalje Zakon o
naknadi) kojim se uredjuje nacin i uvjeti vracanja, odnosno naknade, za
imovinu oduzetu na temelju zakona i drugih akata bivse vlasti.

Zakon o naknadi ima osnovne postulate, a to su:

1. Zakonom se utvrdjuju uvjeti i postupak naknade za imovinu koja je
prijasnjim vlasnicima oduzeta od strane komunisticke vlasti, a koja je
prenesena u drustveno, drzavno ili zadruzno vlasnistvo konfiskacijom,
nacionalizacijom, agrarnom reformom i drugim propisima. U Zakonu o
naknadi
navedena su 32 takva zakona.

2. Ovlastenici naknade su fizicke osobe prijasnji vlasnici odnosno
njihovi
nasljednici prvog nasljednog reda koji na dan donosenja zakona imaju
Hrvatsko drzavljanstvo.

3. Ovlastenici naknade su i pravne osobe, odnosno njihovi pravni
sljednici
pod uvjetom ako su do donosenja ovog zakona na teritoriju Republike
Hrvatske
odrzale neprekidno pravno sljednistvo, obavljale djelatnost i imale
sjediste.

4. Obveznik naknade u naravi je fizicka osoba ili pravna osoba u cijoj
imovini se nalazi imovina koja se na temelju ovog zakona daje
prijasnjem
vlasniku. Obveznici naknade u dionicama, odnosno udjelima je Hrvatski
fond
za privatizaciju, glede naknade za oduzeta poduzeca. Obveznik naknade u
novcu i obveznicama Republike Hrvatske je Fond za naknadu oduzete
imovine,
glede naknade za ostalu oduzetu imovinu.

5. Predmet naknade su:
- neizgradjeno gradjevinsko zemljiste
- poljoprivredno zemljiste, sume i sumsko zemljiste
- stambene i poslovne zgrade, odnosno idealni dijelovi takvih zgrada,
stanovi i poslovne prostorije s pripadajucim zemljistem
- brodovi i brodice
- poduzeca
- pokretnine
Za svaku gore navedenu imovinu postoje zakonski uvjeti vracanja odnosno
naknade.

6. Zahtjevi za utvrdjivanje vlasnistva odnosno naknade podnose se
Zupanijskim uredima za imovinskopravne odnose na cijem teritoriju se
nalazi
oduzeta imovina.

7. Rok za podnosenje Zahtjeva iz tocke 6. je 30.06.1997.
_______________________________
--
UDD - Udruga gradjana za suradnju domovine i dijaspore
E-mail: u...@zg.tel.hr
WWW: http://jagor.srce.hr/~tradja/

[Barry S. Marjanovich]

On Wed, 5 Mar 1997, Michel Maisonneuve wrote:

> You have to re-read your history, Martin
>

> It was the Serbs who helped the Jews then
>

> The muslims don't count
>

Anti-Semitism In Servia

Translated from an article published in "Nasa Borba" (Belgrade, Servia),
March, 16-17, 1996:

The president of Jewish community in Yugoslavia, Mr. Aca Singer complains
in "The Servian Word" that in Servia "lately, unfortunately there are a lot
of cases of anti-Semitism," and that there is a danger that this
anti-Semitism will spread widely among the people.

"This danger is noticable especially after the publication of some books
and articles, such as a book by Dr. Ratibor Durdevic. These books have no
basis in truth or reality. Nevertheless, following the publication of such
books more anti-Semitic incidents seem to appear. On the walls of the
Jewish Cemetery in Belgrade, the following graffiti appeared: " Get out,
all of you, Judeo-Masonic haters of Servs", "We don't want the Jewish
Dayton Accords", "Jews, remember, you're only a minority in Servia..."

"The book that I refer to, 'Dirty-work of American Democracy'", says Singer,
"was published by Zarko Gavrilovic (Saint-Sava's Party). But, everything
will be clear to you, when you consider the author's biography - during
the occupation in WW II, he was a member of the Ljotic's party (Servian
Nazis), that means his ideas are not from yesterday."

Mr. Singer also points out that another book was published in Montenegro,
titled "The Jewish Dance Of Vampires" and he says that the text "is even
worse than 'The Protocols of the Wisemen of Zion'", which was also
published here. "I can also tell you about the public appearances of that
Servian Duke, supposedly Duke, Vucinic, who stated that all Jews should
have their property confiscated, or about Dragos Kalajic who cannot write
one article without denigrating Jews, and there are other things..."

About the Jewish community in Servia, Mr. Aca Singer says: " We are a
small community, about 3000 registered members. In the Holocaust, 85 %
of Jews from Servia died. But, it's not just a question of our small
number. We do not hold any significant positions in the politics or the
economy of the country. There are a few of us in the Arts, writers
(Albahari, Filip David, the late Kis, or actors (Seka Sabljic, Predrag
Ejdus). It's obvious - we do not present any danger...

ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss

[Barry S. Marjanovich]

On Tue, 4 Mar 1997 sa...@idt.net wrote:
ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss
Servian Leaders Charged As War Criminals
ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss
The following was published in the New York Times on July 26, 1995:

The International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia indicted
the Serb leader, Radovan Karadzic, today for genocide, crimes against
humanity and war crimes.

The rulling could complicate efforts to bring peace to the region.

The tribunal also indicted the commander of the Serb military in Bosnia,
Gen. Ratko Mladic, as a war criminal. The charges against both men
include persecuting, shelling, killing and deporting civilians throughout
Bosnia and Herzegovina; sniper attacks against civilians in Sarajevo, and
taking United Nations peacekeepers hostage and using them as human shields.

The indictments by the United Nations court place the organization in the
position of both prosecuting the Serbs and negotiating with them. In
fact, as the indictment was announced, General Mladic was meeting near
the Bosnian enclave of Zepa with the United Nations commander for Bosnia,
Lieut. Gen. Rupert Smith.

Dr. Karadzic and General Mladic are the highest officials so far to be
formally charged as war criminals in the three-year war in Bosnia. The
five indictments the court issued today involved 24 people altogether.
Among them were 21 members of the Serb military and police forces as well
as politicians and detention camp commanders accused of atrocities.

Among those indicted was Milan Martic, leader of the Croatian Serbs who
control the Krajina region in Croatia. He was charged with ordering
attacks on civilians in three Croatian cities.

But officials at the tribunal, which is based in the Hague, conceded that
there was little likelihood that many of the accused would face trial.
Neither Serbia nor the self-styled so-called republic of the Bosnian
Serbs recognize the tribunal's jurisdiction and both refuse to hand over
suspects.

The tribunal, established in 1993, has already indicted 22 people for
crimes in Bosnia. Only one of them is in custody.

Under today's decision, Dr. Karadzic and General Mladic will now risk
arrest if they travel outside their territory as they have in the past to
attend peace talks.

"All United Nations members have a legal obligation to cooperate with the
tribunal and to implement its decisions," said Christian Chartier,
spokesman for the court. "That means they must act on the warrant for
their arrest."

The indictments also raise the unexplored issue of whether United Nations
troops may arrest anyone indicted by a United Nations court. Officials
close to the tribunal said the legal implications had not yet been clarified.

Spokesmen for the United Nations in both New York and Bosnia said today
that the mediators nonetheless had to keep negotiating with all parties
in the conflict.

The announcements of the tribunal, made at a news conference in the
Hague, also prompted speculation about whether they had been timed to
coincide with the current military and refugee crisis in Bosnia following
the newest Serb offensives.

Officials close to the court dismissed this. They recalled that the chief
prosecutor, Judge Richard Goldstone, had announced his intention to name
Dr. Karadzic and his General Mladic, two top Serb leaders as war
criminals already in April this year.

Dr. Karadzic, who was born in the Yugoslav republic of Montenegro, became
a psychiatrist and then a nationalist Serb politician in Sarajevo, has
led the Serbian rebellion against Bosnia's Government since 1992.

General Mladic, who was born in Bosnia, is a former officer in the
Communist Yugoslav federal army. In 1992 he was named commander of the
Serb army in Bosnia, which has captured more than two-thirds of Bosnia in
the last three years. Both men have denied responsibility for crimes
against Bosnian civilians, saying that any abuses were committed by
uncontrollable paramilitary forces on all sides.

But Western Governments have long said that the majority of the Serbian
atrocities were committed as part of an orchestrated campaign to drive
away non-Serbs at a time when they were largely defenseless.

The strongest charges made by the tribunal today are directed against Dr.
Karadzic and his General Mladic who it is said were responsible for "the
interment of thousands of Bosnian Muslims and Croats in detention
facilities where they were subjected to widespread acts of physical and
psychological abuse and to inhumane conditions."

A statement from the court said that under the direction and control of
the two leaders, "detention facility personnel killed detainees,
seriously injured them and deliberately imposed upon them conditions
intended to bring about their physical destruction."

Detainees, it said, were repeatedly subjected to or witnessed " murders,
rapes and sexual assaults, tortures, beatings, robberies as well as other
forms of mental and physical abuse."

Four of the 24 accused today were charged with genocide "committed with
intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic or religious
group." Besides Dr. Karadzic and His General Mladic, they were Dusko
Sikirica and Goran Jelisic.

M. Sikirica headed the Keraterm camp, a former ceramics factory where
between May and August 1992, Serbian forces held more than 3,000 Bosnian
Muslims and Croats from northwestern Bosnia. Here detainees were
killed, sexually abused, according to the court documents. Altogether, 13
men were indicted in connection with the Keraterm camp.

Mr. Jelisic was one of the commanders of the Luka camp in Brcko in
northern Bosnia. According to the indicment, he referred to himself as
the "Serb Adolf" and often boasted about the number of Bosnians he had
killed. He is accused of 16 murders and other crimes.

STOP
sssssssssssssssssssssssssssssCCCCssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss
EVIL

[Barry S. Marjanovich]

On Wed, 5 Mar 1997, Michel Maisonneuve wrote:

> You have to re-read your history, Martin
>
> It was the Serbs who helped the Jews then
>
> The muslims don't count

********
New Book
********

SERBIA'S SECRET WAR: PROPAGANDA AND THE DECEIT OF HISTORY
by Philip J. Cohen
Forword by David Riesman.
264 pages

In his new book Serbia's Secret War, author Philip J. Cohen argues that
Serbian leaders, from educated politicians and church leaders to nearly
illiterate individuals from remote villages, actively promoted
anti-Semitism and collaborated with the Nazis during World War II; began a
propaganda campaign to transform Serbia's collaborationists into victims
of Nazism; and, have in the late 1980s and early 1990s used this falsified
historical record as justification for the violent campaign to create an
ethnically pure Greater Serbia. Based on four years of in-depth study into
diverse and arcane primary sources, many never before translated into
English or known in the West, Cohen focuses on the World War II era but
finds themes and even individual persons from that era linked to the
current crisis in the Balkans.

In his forword to the book, Harvard sociologist David Riesman notes that
the term ethnic cleansing was used by militant Serb nationalists well
before the most recent strife in the Balkans. "The Serbians were
anti-Semitic long before they were Nazis...The Serbs in part made use of
the Nazis," Reisman writes, because Serbs perceived that the Nazis could
be used to help them achieve the century-old goal of greater Serbia, first
articulated in 1844.

"It is indisputable that the executioners of most Serbia's Jews were
German army personnel or regular police," Cohen writes. Firing squads and
gas vans were the instruments used in 1941, but back in 1938 the only
Jewish member of the Yugoslav Senate had been expelled and replaced with
a non-Jew and the government had proclaimed that Jewish refugees from
Germany would not be welcome in Yugoslavia. In 1940, six months before the
Nazi occupation began, the Yugoslav royal government issued legislation
that Jews could not produce or distribute food and could not enroll in
high schools or univeristies.

Immediately after the Nazi occupation, one of the Serbian collaborationist
newspapers "proclaimed that Jews were the ancient enemies of the Serbian
people and that the Serbs should not wait for the Germans to begin the
extermination of the Jews."

In the fall of 1941, the city of Belgrade sponsored the Grand Anti-Masonic
Exhibition, which alleged a grand Jewish-Masonic-Communist conspiracy for
world domination. And leaders of the Serbian Orthodox Church promised
wholehearted cooperation with the occupation government. Despite some
instances of individual Serbians helping Jews hide, the overwhelming
response of the Serbian state to Nazi policies was full support. "Under
the Nazi government of Serbian General Milan Nedic, Serbs collaborated
with the Nazis in disseminating anti-Jewish propaganda, in plundering
Jewish property, in delivering Jews for execution, and in murdering Jews
in concentration camps in the Nazi-supplied gassing van ( a portable gas
chamber)," Cohen writes.

As for the Serbian leaders' attempt to deny anti-Semitic activities and
complicity in the killings, the "revision" of history began within days of
the Partisan victory, with a primary Serbian newspaper asserting "there
has never been any anti-Semitism among the Serbs, except when the Germans
ordered it." Many Serbian leaders, accepting a conciliatory offer from
Tito, joined the Communist government and hid their own collaborationist
pasts. In the late 1980s leading Serbian intellectuals in Belgrade
portrayed Serbs as the group most victimized in Yugoslavia and demanded
compensation: a redrawing of the borders of Serbia so that all Yugoslav
Serbs could live safely together in an expanded Serbia. This document
supported its demand by equating the Serbs' situation with that of the
Jews and the state of Israel, saying that Serbs were really "the
thirteenth, lost, and most unfortunate tribe of Israel."

The Serbian-Jewish Friendship Society, a lobbying group of Serbs organized
by Slobodan Milosevic, began sending emissaries to Israel and volubly
offering moral support and cooperation, even as Belgrade supplied military
arms to Iraq. There is ample evidence, Cohen writes, of Serbian leaders'
duplicity in maintaining strong military and economic ties to Israel's
opponents in the Middle East, including the training of PLO terrorists,
while promoting the image of Serbia as the tortured innocent victim in the
Balkans.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
About the Author - Philip J. Cohen, M.D., recognized in mid-1991 that the
Belgrade regime was engaging in a genocide, one backed by a propaganda
campaign in which selective historical memories were invoked as
justification for the war on non-Serbs. Relying on his background in
scientific research, Cohen began to study the causes of the conflict. In
connection with his research, Cohen has lectured in various academic
forums, including the American Society for International Law as well as
Georgetown, Harvard, and Yale, and Hebrew University in Jerusalem. He
lives in New Jersey.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

SERBIA'S SECRET WAR (ISBN: 089096685) is available from booksellers or
direct from Texas A&M press at 1-800-826-8911, M-F 8-5 CDT.

For more information, contact Maureen Creamer at 409-845-1436,
Fax: 409-847-8752.
Orders: Toll-free number 1-800-826-8911.

e-mail: M...@tampress.tamu.edu

The book can also be ordered on the net at www.amazon.com

E.V.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Viktor Arevalo]

>The person dd chukurov a Serb is a vicious Jew hater

>Herman

And he's one of the closest friends of General Galindo, visited him at his old
place in Intxaurrondo, the notorious torture center, during December 95
remained there about a fortnight.

Viktor Arevalo

[CARLOS POLI]

>Lo que hace falta es una Republica Croto Comunista!
>
>Viktor Arevalo
>

Si es por los "crotos", no necesitamos ni república, ni comunista, ni
capitalista.

[Aleksandar Sarovic]

Vlatko Juric-Kokic <vko...@jagor.srce.hr> wrote

> First, ever heard of partisans? Do you think that only Serbs and Jews were
> in the partisans? Or you, as usual, don't care for facts?
>
> Do you think that only Serbs and Jews were
> in the partisans? Or you, as usual, don't care for facts?
>
> Second, why the current Croatian strongman, Franjo Tudjman, was invited to

> the V-E celebration? Because he was a member of Ustashas?

Tudjman quoted publicly that he joined partisans by mistake. Not only that he
has never distinguished the policy of Croatia from NDH, he tried hard to
revision the nazi-fascists past of Croatia.

> Third, neither the currency nor the flag were invented by Ustashas.

The currency was invented by Ustashe, the flag was older but Ustashe made it
very dirty.

[Aleksandar Sarovic]

vanja <vfil...@haverford.edu> wrote

> > Look honestly at yourself and your friends. Are you all ready to forgive
> > and forget, and accept the Serbs as neighbors?
> >
> > Looking back, it seems obvious that the issue of the nationalities
> > should have been resolved BEFORE they broke up Yugoslavia.
> > Unfortunately, the Krauts and Tudjman were in too big of a hurry. Can't
> > roll back the tape and write a different ending.
> >
> > Robert
>
> I agree. The communist government should have taken more seriously the
> national question of Yugoslavia. But that was simply not possible because
> the federal insitutions of Yugoslavia were largely dominated by Serbs.

Tell the names of these Serbs.

> As for Bosnia today, the only way we can have a democratic and multiethnic
> Bosnia if we in the West help those people, and not give up on them. We
> must understand who are the victims and who are the aggressors.

Please tell me I am very courious.

> We must
> understand the bitterness the victims of the genocide feel. But we must
> help them overcome their bitterness and find "good people" on the other
> side. Myself, I never blamed all the Serbs. I know good people among the
> Serbs. I have lsot Serb friends in the war defending Sarajevo from
> Mladic's forces.

Why do you think these Serbs were god ones?

> But i Have not suffered as much as many other Bosniaks
> did. We must help them restore trust with each other, and not give up our
> hands, and say "they are all the same." That is why I urge you, Mr.
> Kaplan, to take onthe campaign of Americxan involvement in the restoration
> of the ties between the Bosniaks, Serbs and Croats, and not strenthening
> their mistrusts.

I agree, but when you hint that Mladic is an aggresor you will never get a
trust from the Serbs.

> vanja
>
Aleksandar

[Y Rapido]

netcom.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Boris Petrov wrote:
>
> Borba za Hrvatsku i Tudjmanova veleizdaja
>
> "Bog i Hrvati"
>
> Slobodna Bosna
> 25.8.1996
>
> (Moja napomena: U nizem (prvom) clanku ima olake
> upotrebe rijeci "ustasa" koja je, usput, u hrvatskoj vojnoj i
> drzavnoj terminologiji bila u upotrebi vec 1890 (vidi na pr.
> Kosuticevu knigu "Hrvatsko domobranstvo", str. 11, faksimil
> "Upute glede pucko ustaske sluzbe"). Niti je HOS bio
> "ustaski, niti HDZ-ovski HVO "protuustaski"; to su krivi i
> namjerno iskrivljeni termini.

rap: Nazivati HVO i HV "Ustasama" jeste i historijska i
strateska i propagandna i psiholosko-propagandna greska
koju Bosnjaci cine ovih 1990-tih godina tako imbecilno --
i to gradjanski orjentirani Bosnjaci (npr. "Slobodna
Bosna") kao i unistavatelji gradjanske RBiH oko Izetbegovica
i njegovog ultra-balijsko-mahalasko-cetnickog lista "Ljiljan".

To je doista zalostno, jer se takvom terminologijom cine
mnoge stete obrani RBiH i Bosnjacke nacije. Naime,
HVO i HV koji su samo peta kolona Jugoslovenske i cetnicke
horde, se "furaju" da su Ustase, odn. to im je "ego boost"
kada ih neko nazove Ustasama. Naravno, to oni javno
ne kazu, ali se to jako dobro zna. Medjutim, oni
dosita nisu Ustase, nego su samo Jugoslovensko-cetnicke
sluge -- dakle, sluge sluginih slugu -- tj. peta kolona
JNA u i protiv RBiH i Armije RBiH.

Ustaski pokret je postojao dosta dugo vremena, kao i
njihova maticna stranka HSP, koja je najstarija
hrvatska moderna politicka stranka. Period Frankovaca
u HSP-u je period Ustasa. To je sveukupno gledajuci
ipak jedan ograniceni period u povijesti. Uz to treba
dodati da je pravi HSP (kojeg je vodio ubijeni
Ante Paradjik i njegov nesto manje mudri ali ipak
najvjerovatnije iskreni nasljednik Dobroslav Paraga)
ovih 1990-tih godina gotovo jedina hrvatska stranka
koja je odbila da kolaborira sa cetnicima, tj. koja
je stala na granicu na Drini, umjesto da se bori protiv
Bosne i Hercegovine kao sto se borila HVO i HV.

Svaka starija i iskusnija stranka, kao sto je to
definitivno HSP, ima svoje razne periode, kao sto su
period Frankovaca u Drugom Svjetskom ratu, ali i period
ovih 1990-tih godina koji je mnogo svjetliji, tj. period
Dobroslava Parage, kojega svaki hrvatski i bosnjacki
patriot mora cjeniti za njegov principijelan
i castan stav tokom 1990-tih godina.

> Tudjman se je plasio hrvatskog naroda i vojnih pobjeda HOS-a
> (i kod Vukovara i u Bosni i Hercegovini), a posebno jer je uvidio
> da hrvatske pobjede ugrozavaju njegov ostanak na hrvatskoj
> grbaci. Sukob svih cestitih hrvatskih rodoljuba, pa i
> pripadnika HOS-a sa Tudjmanovom neokomunistickom
> mafijom je samo i jedino to - cestitost i rodoljublje sa
> boljsevickim lopovima i veleizdajnicima; udrobiti tu price o
> "ustastvu" je - u najmanju ruku -bedastoca)

rap: Ovo je potpuno tocno. Tudjman je samo sluga Velikosrpskog
napredovanja zapadno od Drine. Tudjman je sluga Beograda, na
lokalnom nivou.

[Commander Vukomir]

>Domobrani, Ustashe and two Communist resistance fighters, killed
>in World War II, were reburied at a cemetery in the southern
>town of Omis despite protests from Jewish political groups.
> Croatia's 1941-45 collaboration with the Nazis became a
>political tool for Yugoslav Communists who restrained Croatian
>nationalism inside the Balkan federation for decades.

You talk about Jews as if you care about them.....you can lie to your
chetnik countrymen, but we know how serbs "love" Jews..........its
interesting to note that the Croatian gov't has 2 Jews IN ITS RANKS.....what
about Serbia....I don't think that would ever be possible......where are
Belgrades' Jews??????.....dissappeared???.....or killed by your pig brethren
at Sajmiste 1941-45!

Chetnik pig must and WILL burn.

VMG.

[Cosmo]

> Muy bien, lo bueno que tienen estas gentes es que escriben en un idioma que
> todos dominamos!

Si, estas gentes que no saben Ingles estan tontos y deben non comunicar
con nosotros.

---------- --- -- - - - -
Kasim Terzic, @ University of East Anglia, Norwich
The oppinons above are mine only. If you use them without written consent,
you will be tortured by continuous exposure to 'Oasis'
---------- --- -- - - - -
6 + 6 = 14... for large values of 6

[Rick Turkel]

Zas^to s^aljete vas^e poruke na Newsgroup soc.culture.jewish? U poc^etku,
vec'inu ljudi tamo prosto ne interesiraju problemi bivs^e Jugoslavije.
Imamo dosta svojih vlastitih problema, hvala - ne treba nam i vas^ih.

Osim toga, ja sam siguran da nema vis^e nego jedan ili dva drugih c^ovjeka
tamo koji razumiju hrvatski jezik.

Molim vas, skidajte soc.culture.jewish iz vas^eg spiska Newsgroup-a.

Hvala mnogo.

--
Rick Turkel (___ _____ _ _ _ _ __ _ ___ _ _ _ ___
rtu...@freenet.columbus)oh.us| | \ ) |/ \ | | | \__) |
rtu...@cas.org / | _| __)/ | ___) | ___|_ | _( \ |
Rich or poor, it's good to have money. Ko rano rani | u jamu pada.

[Johnny Byrne]

> On Wed, 5 Mar 1997, Michel Maisonneuve wrote:
>
> > It was the Serbs who helped the Jews then
> >

> > And Croatians were nazis
> >
> > Michel

> > The muslims don't count

> sssssssssssssssssssssssssssss
> Servians Hide Their Nazi Past
> sssssssssssssssssssssssssssss
>
> The Calgary Sun, Feb. 22, 1993:
>
> Wartime Whitewash
> by Paul Jackson

>

> THE UNTOLD HOLOCAUST tells the story of Serbia's wartime
> genocide against its Jewish population between 1941 and 1945. I'd been
> pointed in its direction by Zlatan Gleb, of the Zagreb Jewish Community
> Centre.
>
> Wartime Croatia, then governed by the pro-Nazi administration has been
> condemned for decades for its treatment of the Jews. Yet, said Gleb,
> Serbia's treatment of its Jewish population was even worse. But, until
> Sedlar came along, Serbia had managed to conveniently whitewash its
> own anti-Semitic past.

(.....)

Sorry, Boris, but nazi apologists like your barmy own self and the
revisionist `historians', paid-up hacks of the Cro Min. Of Information
and even self-serving Jews, have a serious problem - the historical
record for WW2 establishes active Croat participation in the Holocaust,
not Serb.

Also, try not to label everyone who does not share your views as an
apologist for nazi genocide. When you have a better understanding of
what democracy is and how it works, you'll learn (though I'm not holding
my breath) that, in a democracy, others have an inalienable right to hold
and express views contrary to your own. Nor does every country which
describes itself as a democracy measures up to the description. Croatia
government today, stripped of all denial and equivocation, is a gruesome
example of this type of misrepresentation.

If it's real, blood on hands nazis you're seeking to expose, look no
further than your own newly created neo fascist homeland. Now read on,
and then apologise to the Serbs and Jews for trying to villify those who
bear truthful witness to their genocide at the hands of the wartime SS
Croats and Muslims.

Johnny Byrne

___________________

Without permission - For Fair Use Only

Trpimir for an Executioner and a Victim

Open Letter to Branko Lustig, Producer of a Misunderstanding in Washington

by Mirko Mirkovic, Feral Tribune, 2/20/95, Split, Croatia

(The author is a writer and translator, ex-secretary of Croatian PEN and
a longtime member of the Jewish Community Council in Zagreb.)

I would like to review your speech presented to the Press Club in
Washington, D.C. on 11/21/94, which made a great impact recently in
Croatia. It was published in its entirety by Vjesnik and then by Vecernji
List. Obviously, it deserved such publicity, since it is full of praise
for President Tudjman. You had an honor of sitting next to him at the
premiere of the film ``Schindler's List" in cinema ``Europa" [in Zagreb].
You were, in your words,``excited because all of the important
functionaries in the Croatian government were present." I can sympathize
that it really must have been exciting. You noticed that the president
was personally moved by the film:``after the film finished, he got up,
gave me a hug and I could swear that his eyes were full of tears."

If only he could have seen ``Schindler's List" before he published his
book ``Wastelands of Historical Reality" [``Bespuca Historijske
Zbiljnosti"]. Maybe he would not have quoted a disgusting story about the
Jews in Jasenovac [largest concentration camp in Croatia during the
WWII], contributed by two antisemites who had been released from the
camp.

In any case, why is it that, as a historian, he did not find it necessary
to quote testimonies of Jewish inmates who survived the Ustashe
[Croatian fascists] Auschwitz by pure luck? Their testimonies about that
inferno were collected in a book published in 1972. It is true that,
later, as a president of the republic, he ``expressed sorrow for the
suffering of the Croatian Jews in the holocaust." Commendable. However,
the president of Germany, Roman Hertzog went a step further than
expressing ``sorrow" when last summer he said in Warsaw:``I beg for
forgiveness for what the Germans did to you."

The day after the premiere of ``Schindler's List", you said:``I received
a high Croatian decoration, Order of Prince Trpimir... During the
ceremony the president apologized to me and all members of the Jewish
community for those who during the Second World War took part in
enforcement of Hitler's racist laws."

In 1941 you were still a child and maybe did not know that in Croatia
racist laws were not enacted by Hitler, but by Independent State of
Croatia (ISC) [Nezavisna Drzave Hrvatska or NDH was a Nazi puppet state
from 1941 to 1945; it was run by Croatian fascist movement - Ustashe in
Croatian] and enforced by Ustashe government. You might not be
aware that Vinko Nikolic was an important functionary in that government,
a member of the Ustashe High Command. He was enraptured by the Poglavnik
[term corresponding to Fuhrer in Ustashe terminology] Ante Pavelic.

``Our new intelligentsia," wrote Vinko Nikolic in the Novi List on
7/2/41,``must raise new generations under ustashe [ie. fascist] values
and above all, must engender in Croatian youth, from the earliest age,
unlimited and devoted loyalty towards the Poglavnik." He was not only
enraptured with the Poglavnik, but also interested in literature, which,
according to him would help the Ustashe movement ``to mold a new man,"
whose main characteristics must be:``nationalistic soul, Ustashe heart,
Poglavnik's teaching and Ustashe creed" (Vinko Nikolic, National Goals of
Literature, Zagreb, 1944). He showed his ``loyalty to the Poglavnik" in
the emigration to Madrid in 1949, when the Ustashe crimes were already
known around the world, by composing an ode to Poglavnik's ISC.

Why am I mentioning this to you? Because that gentlemen recently
returned to Zagreb, to the government's warm welcome. President Tudjman,
fighter against fascism in the WWII, did not know better then to make
this gentlemen (who with his ``Ustashe heart" took part in the machinery
of the holocaust) a member of the upper house of the Croatian parliament!

No, that ``educator according to the fascist values" never killed anyone
himself. He sat at his desk and supported criminals with his pen. Do
you know that, Mister Lustig?

Men for all Times

Do you think that a man who in the third Reich demanded from the youth
``limitless devotion to the Fuhrer," could today, in democratic Germany
become a member of Bundestag - German Federal Parliament? Do you think
that the units of the German Army could be named after Nazi war
criminals, as some units of the Croatian Army bear names of Ustashe
butchers? Do you think that some SS-Sturmbandfuhrer, who during the third
Reich signed a racist order, could get today a high decoration from the
president of the Federal Republic of Germany (FRG)?

Still, all of this is possible. But not in today's Germany. Signatory
of the racist Ustashe order in 1941, Ustashe stozernik [military rank]
Ivo Rojnica, was decorated by the Poglavnik with the order of merit ``
for the zealous service in Ustashe movement." The very same zealot of
Ustashe movement - who declared in ``Slobodna Dalmacija":``everything I
did in 1941 I
would do again" - has recently received a decoration of the high Order of
Prince Trpimir from the hands of president Tudjman personally! Of course
this case is not unique. Accomplice in the German genocide on the
Balkan, Kurt Waldheim also received a high decoration from Pavelic and
then, after the war, as a secretary of the UN, another one from Tito!
Some people are truly for all times. Franjo Tudjman, Tito's general,
knows that much.

The grotesque part is that you, Mr. Lustig, an Auschwitz survivor, wear
the same decoration as a Ustashe officer who ``zealously worked" to
implement the holocaust on the territory of the ISC. And with great
success. Of approximately 40,000 Jews on the territory of ISC, three
quarters were killed. Survivors were only those who managed to escape
to the Italian occupation zone or joined the Partisans [indigenous
communist guerilla army under Tito's leadership]. Many were helped by
the Croatians. But while the Croatian citizens, in personal danger, were
helping persecuted Jews as much as they could, the government of ISC was
killing them whenever possible.

You quoted president Tudjman's message to Melvin Salzberger and Abraham
Foxman, in which he distances himself and the Croatian government from
the quisling Croatian state [ISC] and the Ustashe regime. Very good and
commendable. But if you lived here, I believe that as a Jew, you would
be worried by the rehabilitation of the Ustashe ISC, which encompasses
historiography, newspaper articles, TV talk shows, naming of military
units after infamous Ustashe ``knights", all the way to restaurants with
names like ``Poglavnik", ``Coffee Bar Ustasha" and similar reminders of
the genocide of the Jews in ISC. Not far from the house in which I live,
one can find Poglavnik's picture and a bust in a bar, so that the patrons
can get the idea about the owner's political leanings.

I am convinced that you will agree with me that it is unimaginable that
in todays Germany restaurants and hotels would be named after the Fuhrer
or the SS officers, or that a Fuhrer's picture could be displayed in
them. In Germany, such things are regulated by the law. We in Croatia
apparently have more democracy than Germans. If it is true, as you said,
that it is ``improbable that in Croatia we see the strengthening of
fascism," one faces a question: why does not the president and the
government protest against the rehabilitation of the criminal ISC? It is
true, as you said, that in Croatia ``there is no antisemitism but there
are a few antisemites." After Auschwitz, antisemitism can hardly be en
vogue. The Croatian president and the government on several occasions,
have expressed their favorable inclination towards the Jewish community.
Was that because of some special love towards the Jews? Or in order to
score a few good PR points in the USA? - I leave the
answer to you.

It is unthinkable that in democratic Germany an ex-Nazi propaganda boss
could appear on TV and discuss the benefits of the third Reich. On the
other hand, one of the Zagreb TV channels showed in 1992 a program with
the boss of Ustashe propaganda, Daniel Crljen. The same one who during
the ISC declared:``Croatia has radically solved its Jewish problem."
Points scored away from the Home field

You said that ``the tendencies described in the press (I suppose foreign
!) are marginal and have no support from the president or the
government." Very good. However, a striking question is why that same
president and the government do not publicly and decisively condemn
numerous cases of rehabilitation of Ustashe ISC. Nothing would be
easier, since
they have a total control over the daily press and the electronic media.

For the Jewish community, the instances of Ustashe rehabilitation can
hardly be ``marginal." Especially not for those Jews who survived the
holocaust and who after returning to their homeland found out that they
were left alone in this world, without a mother and a father, without
brothers and sisters, without their children. All of them have
disappeared without a trace in Ustashe branch offices of ``the final
solution", in Jasenovac, Stara Gradiska, Jadovna, on Pag. By the way, the
last several hundred Jews in Croatia, mostly elderly, were turned turned
over to Eichmann, ie. sent straight to the Nazi gas chambers. Cardinal
Stepinac tried to save Zagreb Chef Rabbi, Miroslav Freiberger and his
family. He did not succeed. Eichmann's word had more importance for the
Poglavnik than that of Cardinal Stepinac.

Would it therefore be marginal for you, Mr. Lustig, if you were facing
today the rehabilitation of racist butchers from Auschwitz? You also
said:``claims that the present government encourages fascism are
absolutely false." If that is true, I would be grateful if you could
explain how that squares with the fact that the approximately 2000
monuments to the fighters against and victims of fascism have been
destroyed in Croatia [since 1991] ( by ``unknown" perpetrators);
memorials for the people who were cruelly killed simply because they had
been born Jews, or Serbs or Gypsies or were Croatian antifascists!

Also, do not you find it perplexing, as an Auschwitz survivor, that
president Tudjman was so keen to erase the Victims of Fascism Square
name? I believe that you will agree with me, when I say that those
fighters against fascism in Croatia sacrificed their lives in the common
struggle of the humanity against the deadly darkness which threatened to
turn all of Europe in a continental Auschwitz. Why have not the Croatian
authorities condemned or why have not they decisively confronted that
barbarian destruction of the memorials for the victims of fascism? Or
maybe someone thinks that the historical facts can be
thrown into a black hole of oblivion, as did the Big Brother's ``Ministry
of Truth" in Orwell's 1984?

Black Hole of Oblivion

In your Washington speech you said:``the number of Jews in Partisans was
small." With that claim you unfortunately misinformed your American
audience. Yugoslavia had about 70,000 Jews before the WWII. About 4,500
of those, or more than 6 percent of the total Jewish population, took
part in the national liberation war. That means that the participation
of Jews in the antifascist struggle was proportionally larger than that
of any other nation on the territory of ex-Yugoslavia.

You tried to convince your American audience that Kuna is an appropriate
choice for the name of the Croatian currency. You said:`` I personally
do not see that as a connection with the fascist period.". Ustashe ISC
was just the first and only state to name the Croatian currency Kuna.
But what sort of connection could that have with our ``most democratic
country in Europe" [common phrase in the Croatian press, referring to
Croatia].

Commemoration of the 50 years since the liberation of Auschwitz has
recently taken place in Poland. Eli Wiesel, Nobel Prize winner, and, as
you said, your friend from the death march in January of 1943 took part
in the commemoration. You quoted his words:`` To forget is to kill the
victims for the second time. We could not stop their death the first time
round. We must not allow them to be killed again." Don't you also find
intolerable the rehabilitation of Ustashe ISC, which was
until the last moment of the third Reich its ally in the most horrendous
genocide in history?

----------------------------------------

[Ivo Skoric]

You never heard of him? Well I kind of did, and I knew he was on of
those cool '68 guys, but he completely disappeared from political
radar later. NOBODY heard of him. Now, suddenly everyone is out
printing his obituary - AP, NYT, etc. Come on - doesn't something
stink here or what? Don't tell me that AP managed to "discover"
Zivotic just now when he died. They must have known of him before.
So, why nobody interviewed him? Why NYT did not run a story on him 3
years ago? BTW, did B92 interview him at any time between 1993 and
his death? It is as if everybody wanted us to never hear of him while
he was alive. A naive observer of BAlkan events would believe that
the Western media would be happy to find a "good Serb" and make a
story: it would prove that not all Serbs are bad and it would also
provide a viable alternative there for peace. They chose to wait
until he dies: it is cheaper do build up a dead martyr than a live
one, and we are living in the era of cutting costs.

ivo

Ivo Skoric ***** isk...@igc.apc.org

212.369.9197

PO Box 46, NYC NY 10029, USA

http://www.peacenet.org/balkans/

ivo.html

[Amir.M]

On Fri, 7 Mar 1997 11:55:03 +0000, Cosmo <w962...@cpca6.uea.ac.uk>
wrote:

Todos vosotros gentes quien escribir en Espaniol y pensar ellos
mismos ingenioso , son muy aburrido.

Amir.M

[Barry S. Marjanovich]

On Wed, 5 Mar 1997, Michel Maisonneuve wrote:

> You have to re-read your history, Martin
>

> It was the Serbs who helped the Jews then
>

> The muslims don't count

New Book - GENOCIDE IN BOSNIA

Bethlehem, PA- With the Jewish Holocaust etched in people's memories, how
could genocide happen again? Does fierce nationalism necessarily lead to
mass murder.

In this book, Norman Cigar provides the first scholarly study of genocide
in Bosnia-Herzegovina, arguing that it is neither the unintentional
result of civil war nor the unfortunate by-product of rabid nationalism.
Genocide is, he contends, the planned and direct consequence of conscious
policy decisions made by the Serbian establishment in Serbia and
Bosnia-Herzegovina. Its policies were carried out in a deliberate and
systematic manner as part of a broader strategy intended to achieve a
defined political objective - the creation of an expanded, ethnically pure
Greater Serbia.

Using testimony from congressional hearings, policy ststements,
interviews, and reports from the Western and local media, the author
describes a sinister policy of victimization that escalated from
vilification to threats, then expulsion, torture, and killing. Cigar also
takes the international community to task for its reluctance to act
decisively and effectively.

GENOCIDE IN BOSNIA provides a detailed account of the historical events,
actions, and practices that led to and legitimated genocide in
Bosnia-Herzegovina. It not only focuses attention on the horror of
"ethnic cleansing" and the calculated strategy that allowed it to happen
but also offers some interesting solutions to the problem.

Norman Cigar received his Ph.D. from Oxford University. He is now
professor of national securities studies at the U.S. Marine Corps School
of Advanced Warfighting in Quantico, Virginia, and former senior analyst
for the Army staff at the Pentagon.

GENOCIDE IN BOSNIA, which contains 240 pages, is available from the Texas
A&M University Press, Drawer C, College Station, Texas, 77843-4354, Fax
409-847-8752. Phone 1-800-826-8911, or phone 409-845-1436, at $29.95 per
copy.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Y Rapido]

eader.news.ozemail.net>

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Commander Vukomir wrote:
>
> >Domobrani, Ustashe and two Communist resistance fighters, killed
> >in World War II, were reburied at a cemetery in the southern
> >town of Omis despite protests from Jewish political groups.

rap: Why are Jews protesting ?! After all, it was Jewish (pretty
much by all his ideological profile)n President of the USA, Bill
Clinton who made it perfectly possible for Franjo Tudjman and
his HDZ party to achieve what the Croatian WW II Third Reich
collaborator
Ante Pavelic could only dream of: exterminate and expell ALL Serbs
from Croatia !!! Wow ! Not even Adolf Hitler made that possible,
while Jewish president Bill Clinton made it 100% possible by
supporting 1995 "Operation Storm" in Croatia -- operation that
was based on American support in expelling all 12% of Serbs from
Croatia.

So, since Bill Clinton and approx. 70% of Democrat Administration
are more Jewish than Golda Meir, and since Clinton supports
Franjo Tudjman and his Commie-Nazi HDZ cohorts, why are than the
Jews bitching now ?!

Common, lets get serious and put things in perspective: what
Jews support, that is exactly what they shall get !

[Barry S. Marjanovich]

On Thu, 6 Mar 1997, Vlatko Juric-Kokic wrote:

> Second, why the current Croatian strongman, Franjo Tudjman, was invited to
> the V-E celebration? Because he was a member of Ustashas?

The Anti-Fascist Movement In Croatia

The Zajednicar, July 17, 1996:
*******************************************************************************
U.S. Rep. George Radanovich (R.-CA) introduced the following commentary
into the Congressional Record in the House of Representatives on Thursday,
June 27, 1996:
*******************************************************************************
CROATIA CELEBRATES ANTI-FASCIST STRUGGLE
COMMEMORATION DAY

Mr. Radanovich: Mr. Speaker, just last Saturday on June 22, Croatia
celebrated its participation in the World War II anti-fascist movement.
The Anti-Fascist Struggle Commemoration Day, a national holiday in
Croatia, has been a tremendous success and courageous recognition of that
ever-important victory over international tyranny some 50 years ago. I
would like to formally recognize this event here in the United Sates for
her gracious and dedicated efforts to securing and preserving world peace.

*******************************************************************************
THE ANTI-FASCIST MOVEMENT IN CROATIA

Every June 22 since independence, Croatia, has celebrated its
participation in the World War II and anti-fascist movement. The national
holiday, Anti-Fascist Struggle Commemoration Day, marks the day on which
in 1941 Vlado Janic led forty Croatian anti-fascists from the town of
Sisak to fight against fascism, marking the beginning of the anti-fascist
struggle in Croatia.

The President of Croatia, Dr. Franjo Tudjman, one of the few European
statesmen who is a veteran of the World War II anti-fascist movement, has
said on many occasions that the anti-fascist struggle greatly contributed
to establishing the foundations of a modern, democratic Croatia.

The following factors should be considered when examining Croatia's role
in the anti-fascist struggle:

The Croatian anti-fascist movement was among the strongest, not only in
former Yugoslavia, but also in Europe;

Croatian resistance forces, as part of the democratic coalition of
anti-fascist powers, participated in the victory over fascism;

Croatians led the Croatian and South Slavic anti-fascist movement;

The resistance led to the creation of the Federal State of Croatia by
ZAVNOH (Anti-Fascist Council of National Liberation of Croatia),
constitutional foundations of federalism, and the constitutional and legal
basis for Croatians' independence today; and

The guiding principles of the anti-fascist movement form an integral part
of the preamble of the Croatian Constitution.

Croatia takes pride in the fact that one of the three organized resistance
units in occupied Europe was Croatian. The Sisak resistance unit engaged
in several diversions on the Zagreb-Belgrade railway; and by mid-September
in 1941 had grown to 77 fighters. By the end of 1941, 7,000 Croatian
anti-fascists had joined the armed partisan movement, rising to 25,000 a
year later, and to 100,000 following the capitulation of Italy. By the end
of the Second World War the number reached 150,000. The overall number of
Croatian citizens that participated in the anti-fascist struggle is
estimated at 471,836, of which two-thirds were Croats.

Last year, to mark the fiftieth anniversary of the victory of the
anti-fascist coalition in Europe, the Croatian Parliament published a
report that records the history of the anti-fascist movement in Croatia
from the 1920s onwards.

The recognition of Croatia's participation in the anti-fascist movement is
one of the pillars of a strategy aimed at national reconciliation. Towards
this end, President Tudjman laid a wreath at the memorial site in
Jasenovac on June 15, 1996 to pay homage to the victims at the Jasenovac
camp, a camp which has come to symbolize the evils of fascism and
communism. President Tudjman said: "I have laid the wreath as Croatia's
President in memory of all victims of Jasenovac; for the victims of
fascism and the NDH (Independent State of Croatia), but also for those who
were executed by the communist regime."

*******************************************************************************

[Viktor Arevalo]

PORUKE NO?

[Miro STROMAR]

Rick Turkel wrote:
>
> Zas^to s^aljete vas^e poruke na Newsgroup soc.culture.jewish? U poc^etku,
> vec'inu ljudi tamo prosto ne interesiraju problemi bivs^e Jugoslavije.
> Imamo dosta svojih vlastitih problema, hvala - ne treba nam i vas^ih.

> Rick Turkel

WE do not send anything to s.c.jewish!

It is swerbian propagandists who are trying to hitch their squeeky wagon
to the well greased jewish propagnada train by declaring brotherhood in
being victims! So when WE respond, the response goes to all the groups!

Try writing to chukurov istead.

Best reagards, long live free Palestine!

===============================================================
Miro STROMAR, Calgary Alberta, CANADA
______| http://www.cadvision.com/crestest/main.htm
o/______\o e-mail: cres...@cadvision.com
(Oo=00=oO) Faxphone: 403.253.5695 Office: 403.266.4141
[]=****=[] Cellular: 403.607.8845
===============================================================

[Barry S. Marjanovich]

On Wed, 5 Mar 1997, Michel Maisonneuve wrote:

> You have to re-read your history, Martin
>
> It was the Serbs who helped the Jews then
>

> And Croatians were nazis
>
> Michel

> The muslims don't count

THE LAST NEST OF NAZIS IN EUROPE
by
Eric Margolis 12 Dec 1996

The days of Serb strongman Slobodan Milosevic, who began the
Third Balkan War and fathered ethnic cleansing, may be
numbered.

Vast protests against the Milosevic dictatorship continue to
grow in Belgrade, while his former foreign allies - the US,
Britain and Greece - are distancing themselves. The
regime's bulwark, Serbia's Army and secret police, have
reportedly split on continued support of Milosevic. He could
end up a second Ceausescu.

Milosevic's eventual fall would be a boon for long-
suffering Serbs, and the entire Balkans. A Serb protestor's
placard, with pictures of Milosevic, Saddam, and Castro -
entitled `Three of a Kind' - captured the moment nicely.

While it's always tempting to personify a region's complex
problems in one diabolic figure, being rid of Milosevic
won't end a primary cause of enormous suffering and death in
the Balkans this century: the Serb nazi movement.

Wartime Nazi movements in Croatia, Slovenia, Hungary and
Romania have been amply studied. Serbia's home-grown brand
of WWII nazism has not been - for three reasons. First, it hid
under the mantle of slav nationalism. Because Serb nazis were
anti-German, they were exempt from censure. Second, Serbia was a
close, useful ally of Britain, France and Russia. Third,
Serb nazism has always been amorphous, concealed in the
shadows, and linguistically unintelligible to outsiders.

Serb slav nazism began around 1900 and flourished in the
1920's after the creation of unstable, multi-ethnic
Yugoslavia. Numerous influential Serb writers and academics,
notably Vaso Cubrilovic and Radivoje Pesic, proclaimed Serbs
racial supermen, and Serbia the true cradle of western
civilization. .

Serb nazis urged ethnic cleansing of all `racially inferior'
Hungarians, Croats, Jews, Albanians, Catholics and Muslims
from a purified Greater Serbia, stretching from Italy to the
Aegean. Some elements of the Serb Orthodox Church eagerly
cooperated - and still do - with these ideas.

Mother Theresa, an Albanian from southern Yugoslavia, ended
up in Calcutta because her family was driven from its home
by Serb nazis in the 192O's during a campaign of ethnic
cleansing. Back then, as now, Serb nazis warned of the
fertility of non-Serb women, and called for the mass
expulsion, extermination or sterilization of `racial
inferiors.'

The Serb slavo-nazi, Cubrilovic, wrote, `If Germany could
deport tens of thousands of Jews, the expulsion of a few
hundreds of thousands of Albanians would not lead to a
world war.' Interestingly, his remark mirrors Hitler's
observation that since the world ignored the genocide of
Armenians during World War I, it would react similarly to
his planned extermination of Jews.

Milosevic rekindled Serb nazism after Tito had suppressed it
for two decades. Serb paramilitary gangsters, like Arkan
and Seselj, who spearheaded ethnic cleansing and mass
murder, are direct descendants of Hitler's brownshirt
thugs. The Serb army - shades of the SS- was ordered to
ethnically cleanse Bosnia of `Muslim filth' on a `sacred
historic mission for the Motherland.'

Serb nazis now denounce Milosevic for failing to accomplish
this goal. A significant part of the opposition is made up of
nazis, or rightwing extremists. Unless ripped out by the roots,
nazism may continue its grip on Serbia.

Nazism and fascism were thoroughly excised from Germany,
Italy and Japan. It's time to do the same in Serbia to the
last nest of nazis in Europe. Hopefully, democratic Serbs -
-Serbia's forgotten majority - will accomplish this long-overdue
task. They will need a great deal of active support from
Europe -particularly when Britain and Greece finally halt
their shameful support of Serb extremists.

Canada's demands this week that capture and prosecution of
Bosnian Serb war criminals be vigorously pursued - by
force, if necessary - are overdue and welcome. Canada is
right to show zero tolerance to nazis like Karadzic and
Mladic. You don't fight nazism by trying 85 year-old men,
You do it by arresting and prosecuting today's reincarnated
nazis in the Balkans.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
copyright eric margolis 1996
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Barry S. Marjanovich]

On Fri, 7 Mar 1997, Johnny Byrne (EVIL SLOBo's SERVant In Action) wrote:

> > > It was the Serbs who helped the Jews then
> > >

> > > The muslims don't count

Servian "Bloody Priest" - Chetnik Momcilo Djujic

Background

Momcilo Djujic was born on Feb. 27, 1907 in the village of Kovacic in
Croatia, near the town of Knin. After graduating from high school in Knin
in 1924, he attended a school of higher education in Sibenik, and then
entered the Serbian Orthodox theological seminary in Sremski Karlovci in
1929. Ordained in 1933, he served as village priest in Strmica, a small
Serb community a few kilometers north of Knin, and began participating in
local Chetnik activities as early as 1935, when the first armed
associations or groups were founded in the surrounding area. [1]

[1] Popovic; "Nasa Rec, monthly political and literary review (Middlesex,
England), No. 402/XLII (Feb 1989), pp.9-11.

Politically, Djujic gravitated toward the extreme right of the
nationalistic Chetnik "Greater Serbia" movement which, in its present
form, is responsible for most of the horrors in former Yugoslavia today,
and by 1941 he was an ardent supporter and follower of Dimitrije Ljotic,
who led the fascist, pro-Nazi, anti-semitic "Zbor" Party in Belgrade,
which was closely allied to the Chetnik movement. These fascist leanings
greatly facilitated Djujic's initial contacts with the Italian occupation
forces in April 1941 and his willingness to put his Chetniks at their
disposal two months later. [2]

[2] Ibid: pp. 12-17.

The first armed Chetnik groups in the Knin area gradually evolved into
companies, battalions and regiments, and at the end of February 1942 the
Dinarske Chetnik Division was formed by Djujic to exercise command and
control over this rapidly growing force. [3]

[3] Ibid: p.84.

The World War II Chetniks under the overall command of Draza Mihailovic
were Serbian nationalist fanatics devoted to the goals of a "Greater
Serbia", meaning the annexation of major portions of Bosnia-Herzegovina
and Croatia by force of arms. Hiding behind the facade of a pro-Allied
guerrilla army called the Yugoslav Army in the Fatherland, they
collaborated openly with the Italian and German occupation forces in
former Yugoslavia against Tito's Partisans, but their principal enemies
were the Muslim and Croatian populations in the territories marked for
annexation as part of "Greater Serbia." These populations were massacred
and driven from their homes in a ruthless campaign that began with the
very first day of the war on April 6, 1941. In north and central Dalmatia,
in Croatia, Djujic's Chetniks "...massacred Croat civilians, plundered
their homes and set fire to whole villages." [4]

[4] Ostovic, P.D. The Truth About Yugoslavia. New York: Roy Publishers,
1952. pp. 219-225.

Djujic did not shrink from putting his genocidal instructions on paper. A
copy of secret order No. 22, issued by the headquarters of his Dinarske
Chetnik Division on March, 1942, was found near Knin on the body of one of
his senior officers that read in part: "...The aim of this division is to
establish complete Serb domination in these parts. At the most opportune
moment liquidate the Croats, Catholics and Muslims. Cleanup must include
Lika, northern Dalmatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina so that a completely
Orthodox state with Serbia and Montenegro may be realized." [5]

[5] Benkovic, Theodore. The Tragedy of a Nation. [Booklet, n.d.], p.40.

By March 1943, Djujic's notoriety as a war criminal and genocidist had
reached such proportions within the Western camp that Ilija Jukic, a
senior Croatian representative with the pro-Allied Yugoslav government in
exile in London, which exercised nominal control over Mihailovic's Chetnik
forces in the homeland, was forced to go to the Premier and recommend that
"Mihailovic disown Jevdjevic and Djujic, the two Chetnik commanders most
under attack for collaboration with the Italians and massacres of Croats
and Muslims." [6]

[6] Jukic, Ilija. The Fall of Yugoslavia. New York: Harcourt, Brace,
Jovanovich, 1974. p.163.

With the preceding background on the time, the place and the individual,
the specific crimes charged to Momcilo Djujic can be better understood in
their historical context. The atrocities noted below include only those
that have been attributed directly to Djujic or his troops under his
command. Those, and there are many, that are generally classified as
"probably" or "possibly" the work of Djujic have been omitted, as well as
other crimes where only a few victims were involved.

CHARGES AGAINST MOMCILO DJUJIC:
*****************************

April 15-30, 1941
-----------------

Chetniks, most or all of whom were under Momcilo Djujic, killed around 100
Croatians in the vicinity of Knin, Grahovo and Sinj and burned some 100
houses. An estimated 16 people were murdered on the roads outside of Knin.
Djujic's Chetniks were already cutting off the ears, hands, feet and
women's breasts of their victims, even at this early stage in the course
of events. One of these atrocities occured at Ervenik, 25 kilometers
northwest of Knin. Chetniks rounded up 30 Croatians, tied them, and took
them to a meadow where they were slaughtered and then thrown into a deep
fissure in the rocks that are common in that area. [7]

[7] Omrcanin, Ivo. Istina o Drazi Mihailovicu. Munich-New York:
"Logos"-Verlag, 1957. pp.100 and 107.

August 1, 1941
---------------

Chetniks from Dalmatia belonging to the Momcilo Djujic group murdered 30
Croatians in Bosanska Krupa on the Una River in Western Bosnia. [8]

[8] Ibid: p.114.

August 1, 1941
---------------

In the vicinity of Knin, 30 captured Croatian Domobran (regular Croatian
Army) troops and Gendarmes were butchered by the Chetniks. [9]

[9] Gabelica, Ivan. Letter to the editor, "START" magazine, Zagreb, Oct.
5, 1990. pp.4-5.

October 7, 1941
----------------

All 7 members of the Croatian Ivankovic family were murdered by Djujic
Chetniks during the night in Ervenik, 25 km northwest of Knin. [10]

[10] German Embassy Zagreb report, in: U.S. National Archives, Microcopy
T-120 (Records of the German Foreign Office Recieved by the Department of
State), roll 3980, frame E049829.

December 20, 1941
------------------
Djujic Chetniks raided the Croatian village of Stikovo, 18 km southeast of
Knin, and slaughtered several of the people who were captured. A Croatian
Gendarmerie corporal had his ears cut off and was then slain. They
gouged out the eyes of another victim with their knives and cut off
breasts of 40-year old Mari Vujovic, whose 9-month old baby was then given
the severed breasts to suckle. Another victim, a young girl, had her
fingers cut off before she was finally killed. [11]

[11] Omrcanin, p.107.

Mid-April, 1942
----------------

Chetniks from the "Kocic" Detachment under the command of Uros Drenovic,
which was a component of Djujic's Dinarske Division, burned down a number
of Muslim villages around Mrkonjic Grad in Central Bosnia and slaughtered
many people. In the Village of Grad about 70 people perished, 18 of them
being jammed into one house and then burned alive. In another nearby
village, Dabrac, 50 people were burned alive and 60 more in Podgora. In a
single day some 4,000 structures were burned down in the Janj district, of
which 1,300 to 1,400 were dwellings. [12]

[12] Ibid: p.145.

Beginning of May 1942
----------------------

Bruno Ivanovic and his assistant named Radic, two Partisans who had been
sent to the Knin area to help organize the communist political apparatus
in the region, were caught by Chetniks under the command of Momcilo Djujic
and savagely tortured before they were killed. [13]

[13] Jelic-Butic, (Dr.) Fikreta. Cetnici u Hrvatskoj 1941-1945. Zagreb:
Globus, 1985. p.125.

End of June 1942
-----------------

Following a successful campaign against Partisan forces around Knin that
concluded on June 26, Chetnik MVAC (Anti-Communist Volunteer Militia - the
Italian name for Chetnik auxiliaries) units under Momcilo Djujic occupied
all of the villages in the Knin Valley and began committing atrocities.
The village of Mokro Polje, 21 km northwest of Knin, was burned down,
furniture, livestock and other personal property looted, and all families
thought loyal to the Partisan cause were massacred. Those slaughtered were
predominately Serb Orthodox rather than Croatian. [14]

[14] Popovic, p.145.

CHARGES AGAINST MOMCILO DJUJIC:
*******************************

October 1, 1942
----------------

Around 6:30 in the morning, Djujic Chetniks from Omis under their own and
Italian officers advanced on the villages of Gata, Naklice, Zvecanje and
Cisla. On the road approaching Gata they encountered 6 young women who
were raped and then killed. In Gata the houses were burned down and the women,
children, old people and men butchered. According to information gathered
a few days later, 85 people were massacred in Gata and nearly all of the
houses burned down, in Zvecanje around 20 were killed and many houses set
on fire, in Cisla 18 people were murdered and many houses burned, and in
Naklice one person was killed and one house set on fire. [15]

[15] Popovic, p. 170.

October 10-20, 1942
--------------------

During Operation "Dinara", a large-scale Italian offensive to clear the
Partisans from Central Dalmatia and Bosnia, Chetnik auxiliaries under
Momcilo Djujic carried out a punative expedition in the villages of Gata,
Tugari and Ostrvice, all of which lie along the road between Bosansko
Grahovo and Livno. With the wholehearted support of Italian officers and
Serbian Orthodox priests, 190 men, women and children were slaughtered. A
total of 19 Croatian villages were burned down with all of the people
being roasted alive in their homes during the course of the operation. The
school was put to the torch in one village and all of the students and
teachers perished in it. [16]

[16] Ibid: p.169

October 21, 1942
-----------------

A force of 960 Chetniks under the command of Momcilo Djujic entered the
village of Bitelica and proceeded to torture and slaughter all Croatians
found there. At least 29 people were hacked to pieces, had their throats
slit, eyes gouged out, torn limb-from-limb, thrown alive into fires, etc.
The names of the 29 victims along with the nature of death for each are
given in the source. [17]

[17] Ibid: p. 179.

January 14, 1943
-----------------

In the early evening hours the 2nd and 3rd Licka Brigades of the Partisan
6th Licka Division attacked the town of Gracac in Northern Dalmatia, which
was defended by elements of the Italian "Sassari" Infantry Division and a
large force of Chetniks, including 2,000 Chetniks from Herzegovina under a
Captain Tomasevic, and 800 Chetniks from the regiments "Kralj Aleksandar"
under Brane Bogunovic and "Kralj Petar II" under mane Rokovic, both of
which belonged to Djujic's Dinarske Division. The fighting was bitter, but
the attack failed due to the numerical superiority of the Chetnik forces.
Of the 80 Partisans taken prisoner, all except two were horribly tortured
to death by the Chetniks. A Croatian Partisan, Stipe Spehar, received a
special treatment from the Chetniks. Already badly wounded from the
fighting, the Chetniks dragged him through the center of Gracac while
cutting him to shreds with their knives, being careful not to end his
suffering with a fatal slice, and all the while applauding in mock
celebration the "brotherhood and unity" of the Serbian and Croatian
people. Only two of the prisoners were released alive, supposedly
because "they were misguided youths." [18]

[18] Ibid: pp.222-225.

January 25, 1943
-----------------

During operations east of Knin, Chetniks belonging to the Dinarske
Division captured and shot 8 Partisans, all of whom probably belonged to
the 3rd Dalmatian Brigade. [19]

[19] Ibid: pp.229-230.

January 26, 1943
-----------------

On this Thursday 1,200 Chetniks from Momcilo Djujic's Dinarske Division
carried out an early morning attack on the Croatian villages of Maovice,
Batalici, Skorupi, Kijevo, Kozore, Vinalic, Garjak, Jezevic and Vrlika,
all of which lie to the southeast of Knin. The objective was to slaughter
as many Croatians Catholics as possible before the Italians found out and
put a stop to it. As soon as they arrived in Maovice, the massacre began:
one man had his eyes gouged out and his hands chopped off; childern were
thrown alive into burning houses; in one spot alone 13 people were
butchered with knives. At least 60 people were killed in Maovice in such
ways, although the number may have been as high as 80. The Chetniks then
marched to Vrlika where another 55 were massacred. They raised the Serbian
flag on the local Catholic church and began slaughtering those villagers
they could lay their hands on - again, many people were thrown alive into
fires. Among the victims were Jovo Postar, who was burned alive, Mica
Erdelez and Serja Konjevod. Then the Chetniks moved on to Kozore and
Kijevo where the scenes were repeated. Investigators later reported that
perhaps another 150 people perished in Kijevo. [20]

[20] Ibid: p.232; German Plenipotentiary General in Zagreb report No.
277/43 (secret), Feb. 8, 1943, in: National Archives Microcopy T-501
(Records of German Field Comands: Rear Areas, Occupied Territories, and
Others), roll 265, frames 771-772.

February 25, 1943
------------------

Chetniks belonging to Momcilo Djujic's Dinarske Division captured and shot
27 men and 17 women in the villages of Ocestovo on the premise that they
were Parisans or suspected Partisans. [21]

[21] Popovic, p.249.

March 20, 1943
---------------

Chetniks under the orders of Momcilo Djujic rounded up 18 Partisans from
Gracac and the surrounding area. Among the prisoners were several very
senior members of the Communist Party District Committee in Gracac.
Following their capture, they were taken to the village of Krupa where
they were savagely tortured while under interrogation. They were then
"sentenced" to death and taken to Vucjak in the Velebit Mountains where
they were all shot. [22]

[22] Ibid: p.248, Cubrilo, Djordje. "Napad cetnika na KK KPH za Gracac u
Cerovcu i pozadinske ustanove u Bruvnu", in: Kotar Gracac u NOR-u
1941-1945. Karlovac, 1984. pp.841-845.

CHARGES AGAINST MOMCILO DJUJIC:
*******************************

Early April 1943
-----------------

On the orders of Momcilo Djujic, over 1,000 innocent people, including
women and children, were taken to a recently opened Chetnik concentration
camp at Kosovo, 10 km south of Knin, to be incarcerated, tormented and
eventually killed. A hundred or so were taken to a nearby gully shortly
after their arrival and shot, but many of them were tortured first. Some
of these and many of those who followed were placed in a heavy wooden
barrel that had been reinforced with additional steel hoops. Long nails
with sharpened points had been driven through the sides of the barrel. The
victims were then rolled down a steep slope several hundred meters long
for the pleasure of their tormentors, screaming and shrieking in agony all
the way down. Nearly all of those afforded this "amusement park ride" bled
to death by the time they reached the bottom of the slope. In all, more
than 1,000 people are known to have perished in this camp. [23]

[23] Popovic, pp.248-249.

Beginning of April 1943
------------------------

On the orders of Momcilo Djujic, two groups of wounded Partisans from the
1st Licke Brigade were executed in the Velebit Mounains in north-central
Dalmatia around April 3. Before being shot, all were horribly tortured,
especially several Croatians who had served with the Partisan Battalion
"Matija Gubec." [24]

[24] Ibid: p.248.

May 1-2, 1943
--------------

Advancing to the southeast from Knin with 8,000 Chetniks, Momcilo Djujic's
Dinarske Division swept along the Livanjsko Plateau toward Livno, scouring
the villages for Partisans and their supporters. About a dozen men sick
with typhus were found in several villages, and these were all tortured
and then shot on Djujic's orders near the village of Bastasi. [25]

[25] Ibid: p.254.

September 12-13, 1943
----------------------

Turning on his benefactor, Djujic and his Chetniks helped the Germans
round up Italians in Dalmatia who had surrendered on Sep. 8, the date of
Italy's capitulation and witthdrawal from the war. Near Vrpolje, 50 km
northeast of Split, 13 Italians were caught trying to flee the net and all
were murdered on Djujic's orders. [26]

[26] Ibid: p.272.

December 7, 1943
-----------------

Following the capture of Livno on the previous day, Chetniks under
Momcilo Djujic massacred 170 men who had been taken prisoner during the
fighting or rounded up in and around Livno. Most of these slaughtered were
Partisans from the 1st Air Base Command that had been set up shortly before
in Livno, and from the 19th Dalmatian Division which had tried to defend the
town and airfield. The Chetniks' own after-action report on this incident,
filed on Dec. 17, stated that they had killed 93 Partisans in battle and
taken 182 prisoners, of which 179 were slaughtered after three Serbs were
let go. [27]

[27] Ibid: pp.309-310; Omrcanin, p.173.

December 14, 1943
-------------------

In a fierce engagement in the village of Strmica to the north of Knin,
Chetniks under Momcilo Djujic slaughtered 14 Croatian Partisans who had
been taken alive in the fighting. On the same day or the next, other
Partisans from this group were encountered and engaged near Ticevo, 51 km
northeast of Knin, while they were attempting to withdraw into the
mountains. Djujic's Chetniks captured and slaughtered 28 of them. [28]

[28] Popovic, pp.312-313.

July 21, 1944
---------------

From a broadcast over Partisan radio, which was Allied-controlled and
located in Southern Italy:

"Our authorities have established that an American pilot baled out over
Kosovo Polje near Knin in Croatia. This territory is controlled by Chetnik
leader Djujic who collaborates with the Germans. By order of the Chetnik
commander of the Brigade "Simo Radic" American aviators are to be killed.
The murder of the American pilot was carried out by the known cut-throat
Milan Matijevic, who finished him off by crushing in his skull with a
stone. Milan Matijevic and Simo Radic have been placed on our official
list of war criminals." [29]

[29] Ibid: p.342.

End of July 1944
-----------------

British intelligence reported that Chetniks belonging to the Kistanje
Brigade, located 28 km southwest of Knin under Chetnik Lt. Simo Radic,
murdered two English parachutists. Although not specified in the report,
these were presumably aircrew from a disabled plane. [30]

[30] Ibid: p.342.

CONCLUSION
-----------

For those who have read through this sickening list of atrocities and
related crimes there can be only one conclusion: something is wrong in
Washington. Since 1979 the Justice Department's Office of Special
Investigations has spent more than $60-million taxpayer dollars pursuing,
denaturalizing, extraditing and deporting teenage concentration camp
guards and minor Nazi propagandists, few of whom were ever proven to have
been directly responsible for specific war crimes. Yet, Mr. Momcilo
Djujic, charged with direct and even personal participation in some of the
most disgusting atrocities of the Second World War, has been intentionally
given a free pass by our Justice Department. Why? What are the
justifications behind this inaction? At a time when the United Nations, at
the instigation of the U.S. government, prepares for international war
crime trials for those charged in the current war in Bosnia and
Herzegovina, one of the last major war criminals of World War II
confortably resides in California a free man.

sssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssSSSSsssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss

[Johnny Byrne]

> The Daily Mujograph, London July 15, 1996:

> Letters to the Editor

My Friend Berislav `Call Me Barry' Satan' asked me to post the following.
As all Canadians are too sadly aware, Barmy Barry is the failed chemical
engineer reputedly employed as a human dipstick by Mobil Oil, Calgary.
However, a word of explanation to those of you who do not appreciate
Barry's obsession to endlessly post and repost the same Serb hating
garbage. I have it on the very best medical authority that it is not due
to ideological fury, but a serious psycho-sexual malady
called Croitus-Non-Interruptus, a variant strain of Mad Cro Disease.

- Johnny Byrne
-------------------

That Letter in Full...

SIR - The imminent issuing by the War Crimes Tribunal in The Hague of a
general international arrest warrant for the Bosnian leader, Ali Baba
Izetbegovic, a notorious mass marrier, and Franjo `Frankie The Fink'
Tudjman, for appalling bad taste in his choice of military uniforms -
among other heinous crimes - is at least, a step in the right direction.

But there is no guarantee that the warrant will lead to an arrest.
Hitherto, the Western military commanders in Bosnia and Croatia have
practiced a timorous "look the other way" policy; on one occasion
`Frankie The Fink' Tudjman' was allowed to pass through four checkpoints
of the Nato-led "implementation force" (Ifor) in succession before
arriving at his destination, a brothel for Nato servicemen in Sarayevo.
Some further mechanism is needed to bring these men to justice.

That mechanism is greed. The most useful thing that Western governments
could do now would be to offer a large monetary reward to anyone who
succeeds in capturing either or both of these men and delivering them to
an Ifor base. In Ali Baba's case, the offer of a fifth wife should
nicely prime the honey trap, while the lure of a crateload of Sid Vicious
designed comic opera military uniforms should more than suffice to nail
the vain `Frankie The Fink' Tudjman.

Ali Baba and Frankie have created a gangstersied society in their Bosnian
& Croatian satraps, where paramilitary action and the desire for personal
profit - through the kind of looting and extortion we've seen in the Serb
cleansed Krajina and Serbian suburbs of Sarayevo - have been closely
intertwined.

The Bosnian Prime Minister, Mr Muratovic, an unindicted war criminal,
recently said: "Either we have free elections, or free war criminals;
but, so long as people like me, Ali Baba Izetbegovic and `Frankie the
Fink' Tudjman remain at liberty, we cannot have both." Of course the
removal of Ali Baba and Finkish Frankie will not in itself solve all of
Bosnia's problems, since they have hardline deputies and accomplices who
are ready to step into their shoes.

But it will certainly have a beneficial effect on the system of power and
the mentality that prevail in the Muslim and Ustashe held parts of Bosnia
and Croatia today. That mentality is one of defiance and self-satisfied
impunity - life is sweet for bought and sold US NWO proxies. The
present anniversary of the Croats ghastly nazi-like destruction and
ethnic cleansing of the 500 year old homeland of the Serb Krajina - the
most heinous war crime since the Ustashe genocide of the Serbs in 1941/45
- would be a suitable time to bring that impunity to an end.

Chair-Person - Noel Malcolm Mujofreak
(author Of `Bosnia's History Revised' - Part 1 to Part 19987, $ells
Petro-dollar Press, Haverford, USA)

Stool-Pigeon - Galina Al-Shiptarfreak
(dusky, virginal iron-trousered author of `A Thousand & One Nights Of
Unsolicited Pest Telephone Calls)

Bag-Person - Mike `Mama Mia' $ells
(disgraced academic author of `The Ever Expanding Zero In Bosnian War
Crimes Statistics)

Alliance To Bend The Truth About Bosnia-Herzegovina
London M25

[CARLOS POLI]

>Zas^to s^aljete vas^e poruke na Newsgroup soc.culture.jewish? U poc^etku,
>vec'inu ljudi tamo prosto ne interesiraju problemi bivs^e Jugoslavije.
>Imamo dosta svojih vlastitih problema, hvala - ne treba nam i vas^ih.
>

>Osim toga, ja sam siguran da nema vis^e nego jedan ili dva drugih c^ovjeka
>tamo koji razumiju hrvatski jezik.
>
>Molim vas, skidajte soc.culture.jewish iz vas^eg spiska Newsgroup-a.
>
>Hvala mnogo.
>
>--
>Rick Turkel (___ _____ _ _ _ _ __ _ ___ _ _ _ ___
>rtu...@freenet.columbus)oh.us| | \ ) |/ \ | | | \__) |
>rtu...@cas.org / | _| __)/ | ___) | ___|_ | _( \ |
>Rich or poor, it's good to have money. Ko rano rani | u jamu pada.

Rick:
DA! drevienisky prot umietc fraberg prot mier unnderestrasse?

[Vladimir N Bajic]

Robert Kaplan wrote:
>
> Martin Graiter wrote:

> >
> > Michel Maisonneuve <mic...@io.org> wrote:
> >
> > > You have to re-read your history, Martin
> > >

> > > It was the Serbs who helped the Jews then
> > >

> > > And Croatians were nazis
> > >
> > > Michel

> > > The muslims don't count
> >

> > Really? I wonder what history books you've been reading?
>
> I think he's been reading real history books, the poor misguided soul.
> He should stick to the Nazi internet sites, like you do, and don't let
> historical facts interfere with his prejudice.
>
> Does the word USTASE mean anything to you?
> >
>
> >
> > A very small part of the Croatians were nazis, fewer than in France or
> > Hungary for
> > instance. Yet we are still depicted as the worst people in the world.
> > Thanks a lot.
> >
> > It is not decent of you to say these things when the base for it is the
> > history-writing of those that hate us so much.
> >
> > Greets, Martin
> >
> Poor victims of the British, American, French and other historians, who
> have soiled thair reputation, the Ustase were really the Croat version
> of the boy scouts, mostly helping elderly Jews and Serbs to cross the
> street.
>
> Seriously now: One of the nazi ploys is to deny historical facts.
> They'll tell you with a straight face that the Holocaust never happened,
> that the Croats tried to save Jews during the war, or whatever. They
> even set up Internet sites to spread their poison.
>
> Facts, as anybody who is familiar with the history of WWII knows, are
> that the Ustase, the Croatian nazi government, was famous even by nazi
> standards for their brutality against Jews and Serbs, that the Ustase
> had the wholehearted support of the Croatian population, and that the
> current Croat strongman, Franjo Tudjman, has refused to condemn the
> nazi past and has, in fact, tried to resurrect many of the nazi symbols,
> such as the currency and the flag.
>
> Robert
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Good going, Robert!

Vladimir

[Rick Turkel]

Will you people PLEASE stop cross-posting threads dealing with the
problems of the former Jugoslavija to soc.culture.jewish?

First of all, they're off topic. We aren't idiots; if we are interested
in these issues, we know where to go to find relevant discussions.

Second, we have enough of our own problems, thank you very much; we don't
need yours, too.

Third, a sizeable number of these postings are in Serbian/Croatian, and
I'm certain there aren't more than one or two others in soc.culture.jewish
besides me who understand them. What's the point, then?

All of the above applies as well to soc.culture.argentina,
soc.culture.greek, soc.culture.russian, soc.culture.usa, and
soc.culture.german.

Please be reasonable, people. By cross-posting all over Usenet you're
setting more people against you than in your favor.

[Johnny Byrne]

> On Fri, 7 Mar 1997, Senor Smokey Marijuana (Evil Franjo's Fink) made
the following public confession.

SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
!!MIRACLE IN CALGARY!!

I, Berislav `Call Me Barry' Satan, ex-economic Croatian refugee and
(al)chemical engineer resident in Calgary, notorious media terrorist,
self-confessed liar, and self-confessed enemy of humanity - have decided
to emerge from the slime of Satanic clinical error and OFFER OUR FULL
MEDICAL EXPLANATION!!!&&%%!!!....

My - Berislav `Call Me Barmy' Satan - Medical Explanation In Full...

I have discovered that I am infected with MIS (Multiple Identity
Syndrome). Only we know the many bizarre problems it causes for
confirmed schizophrenics like ourselvesself. Things were so much simpler
when I was just me - a happy but failed chemical engineer employed in
Calgary for my wit and ability to immerse myself in tanks of crude Mobil
oil for an hour without breathing. Many distinguished medical men, such
as my ex-shrink, Dr Radovan Karazdic, claim that my present condition is
not unrelated.

However, recent discoveries have revealed that sufferers of MIS, like
myself and Boris, face an even graver threat of extinction from the
perilous effects of HCE (Hyper-Cerebral Electrosis). This is something
up with which Boris and myself will not put - the heads of even degraded
satans like us have an inalienable inhuman right to remain attached to
our shoulders.

The following report describes the devastating effects of Hyper-Cerebral
Electrosis in action....

-------------

Doctor's Note: Berislav `Call Me Barmy, Barry, etc' is the paranoid
schizophrenic author of `Retaking The Soup - Or How I Sometimes Stop A
Serb And Pretend To Be A Croat Again.' published by the Petro $ells
Press, Ulica Galina Al Shiptari, Islamic Republic Of Sarayevo.
________________________

Doctors are blaming a rare electrical imbalance in the brain for the
bizarre death of a chess player whose head literally exploded in the
middle of a championship game! No one else was hurt in the fatal
explosion but four players and three
officials at the Moscow Candidate Masters' Chess Championships were
sprayed with blood and brain matter when Nikolai Titov's head suddenly
blew apart. Experts say he suffered from a condition called
Hyper-Cerebral Electrosis or HCE.

"He was deep in concentration with his eyes focused on the board," says
Titov's opponent, Vladimir Dobrynin. "All of a sudden his hands flew to
his temples and he screamed in pain. Everyone looked up from their games,
startled by the noise. Then, as if someone had put a bomb in his cranium,
his head popped like a firecracker."

Incredibly, Titiov's is not the first case in which a person's head has
spontaneously exploded. Five people are known to have died of HCE in the
last 25 years. The most recent death occurred just three years ago in
1991,when European psychic Barbara Nicole's skull burst. Miss Nicole's
story was reported by newspapers worldwide, including WWN. "HCE is an
extremely rare physical imbalance," said Dr. Anatoly Martinenko, famed
neurologist and expert on the human brain who did the autopsy on the
brilliant chess expert.

"It is a condition in which the circuits of the brain become overloaded
by the body's own electricity. The explosions happen during periods of
intense mental activity when lots of current is surging through the
brain. Victims are highly intelligent people with great powers of
concentration. Both Miss Nicole and Mr. Titov were intense people who
tended to keep those cerebral
circuits overloaded. In a way it could be said they were literally too
smart for their own good."

Although Dr. Martinenko says there are probably many hitherto undiagnosed
cases, mine for instance, he hastens to add that very few people will die
from HCE. "Most people who have it will never know. At this point,
medical science still doesn't
know much about HCE. And since fatalities are so rare it will probably be
years before research money becomes available."

In the meantime, the doctor urges people to take it easy and not think
too hard for long periods of time. "Take frequent relaxation breaks when
you're doing things that take lots of mental focus," he recommends.

----------------------------------------

HOW TO TELL IF YOUR HEAD'S ABOUT TO BLOW UP: (Annotated By J. Sigmund
Fraud.)

Although HCE is very rare, it can kill. Dr. Martinenko says knowing you
have the condition can greatly improve your odds of surviving it. A "yes"
answer to any three of the following seven questions could mean that you
have HCE:

1. Does your head sometimes ache when you think too hard? (Head pain can
indicate overloaded brain circuits.) (Note: not to be confused with the
physical strain of being chased all over Calgary by the police for
daubing `Servian Satan' slogans all over the city.)

2. Do you ever hear a faint ringing or humming sound in your ears? (It
could be the sound of electricity in the skull cavity.) (Note: - again,
not to be confused with the sound of one's own obsessive satanic
sloganeering.)

3. Do you sometimes find yourself unable to get a thought out of your
head? (This is a possible sign of too much electrical activity in the
cerebral cortex.) (Note: an obsessive desire to accuse Servs of the
crimes committed by Croats and Muslims also falls into this category.)

4. Do you spend more than five hours a day reading, balancing your
checkbook, (A common symptom of HCE is a tendency to over-use the
brain.) (Note: always supposing the potential victim has one, in the
first place.)

5. When you get angry or frustrated do you feel pressure in your
temples? (Friends of people who died of HCE say the victims often
complained of head pressure in times of strong emotion.) (Note: when
exposed as a liar - e.g. claiming that Serbs are genocidal Balkan nazis,
when history, and all the world, knows that the Croats and Bosnian
Muslims are the only authentic genocidal Balkan nazis on record.)

6. Do you ever overeat on ice cream, doughnuts and other sweets? (A
craving for sugar is typical of people with too much electrical pressure
in the cranium.) (Note: to be safe: all those smoke filled back room
Croatian Propaganda strategy meetings in Calgary over endless cups of
sweet strong Serbian coffee are strictly forbidden from now on.)

7. Do you tend to analyze yourself too much? (HCE sufferers are often
introspective, "over-thinking" their lives.) (Note: no need to point out
here the explosive dangers of pretending to be something and someone
other than what you truly are, i.e., a sad, insignificant human failure.)

_____________________

[CARLOS POLI]

>
>Will you people PLEASE stop cross-posting threads dealing with the
>problems of the former Jugoslavija to soc.culture.jewish?
>

Este Viktor y este Robert "Pinko" como insisten con el crossposteo. No ven que
al muchacho le rompen las bolas?

>First of all, they're off topic. We aren't idiots; if we are interested
>in these issues, we know where to go to find relevant discussions.
>
>Second, we have enough of our own problems, thank you very much; we don't
>need yours, too.
>
>Third, a sizeable number of these postings are in Serbian/Croatian, and
>I'm certain there aren't more than one or two others in soc.culture.jewish
>besides me who understand them. What's the point, then?
>
>All of the above applies as well to soc.culture.argentina,
>soc.culture.greek, soc.culture.russian, soc.culture.usa, and
>soc.culture.german.
>
>Please be reasonable, people. By cross-posting all over Usenet you're
>setting more people against you than in your favor.
>
>Hvala mnogo.
>
>--
>Rick Turkel (___ _____ _ _ _ _ __ _ ___ _ _ _ ___
>rtu...@freenet.columbus)oh.us| | \ ) |/ \ | | | \__) |
>rtu...@cas.org / | _| __)/ | ___) | ___|_ | _( \ |
>Rich or poor, it's good to have money. Ko rano rani | u jamu pada.

--

[Geoff Cooper]

Miro STROMAR wrote:

> WE do not send anything to s.c.jewish!
>
> It is swerbian propagandists who are trying to hitch their squeeky wagon
> to the well greased jewish propagnada train by declaring brotherhood in
> being victims! So when WE respond, the response goes to all the groups!
>
> Try writing to chukurov istead.
>
> Best reagards, long live free Palestine!

So you're trying to hook your wagon to the oppressed Palestinian
propaganda machine? Go back to Mittel-Europe!
--
Geoff Cooper

The atoms of Democritus
and Newton's particles of light
Are sands upon the Red Sea shore,
where Israel's tents do shine so bright.

William Blake

[Martin Graiter]

Robert Kaplan wrote:

> I think he's been reading real history books, the poor misguided soul.
> He should stick to the Nazi internet sites, like you do, and don't let
> historical facts interfere with his prejudice.

Dear Mr Know All,

Real history books are yet to be written on this matter. I see how easily
you brand anyone not agreeing with you. So now I'm a nazi? You're a sorry
excuse of a historian. If you only knew how ingnorant you are...

> Does the word USTASE mean anything to you?

Let's not. I'm sure that any possible reply would make me into one, huh?

> Poor victims of the British, American, French and other historians, who
> have soiled thair reputation, the Ustase were really the Croat version
> of the boy scouts, mostly helping elderly Jews and Serbs to cross the
> street.

The first part of your sentence is the only sane thing you've written
thisfar,
but you meant is as irony. And stop that patronizing style with me, I'm not
your pupil. If we would judge by what have been written by British,
American
and French "experts" on this recent war, then all your books are worthless.
The only thing above mentioned "experts" have disclosed is their utter
ignorance of what's been going on in the Balkans. You too Robert!

> Seriously now: One of the nazi ploys is to deny historical facts.
> They'll tell you with a straight face that the Holocaust never happened,
> that the Croats tried to save Jews during the war, or whatever. They
> even set up Internet sites to spread their poison.

So you keep on with this nazi thing. Is this a mantra of some kind?
Seriously now: Croats DID try to save Jews. Pity, huh? Makes it a bit
harder
to hate them (the Croats), doesn't it?

> Facts, as anybody who is familiar with the history of WWII knows, are
> that the Ustase, the Croatian nazi government, was famous even by nazi
> standards for their brutality against Jews and Serbs, that the Ustase
> had the wholehearted support of the Croatian population, and that the
> current Croat strongman, Franjo Tudjman, has refused to condemn the
> nazi past and has, in fact, tried to resurrect many of the nazi symbols,
> such as the currency and the flag.

Robert, I see that you really believe in what you're saying, but in fact
you
know nothing. You keep on repeating the Serb propaganda over and over
again.
I guess it's easier to pick on a small newly-awakened nation, which doesn't
really have the means and knowledge to properly strike back at your lies?

So just because you're a "great writer" or whatever, you can go on accusing
anyone you happen to dislike to be a nazi, revisionist, cannibal?

I'm accusing you of ignorance and bad (net-)behaviour, having no respect
for
other religions (the moslems), for other nations (Croatia) and for having
the
nerv to puke out all these things in various newsgroups.

Goodbye.

[Marolt Parabucki]

Barry S. Marjanovich wrote:

>
> On Wed, 5 Mar 1997, Michel Maisonneuve wrote:
>
> > You have to re-read your history, Martin
> >
> > It was the Serbs who helped the Jews then
> >
> > And Croatians were nazis
> >
> > Michel
> > The muslims don't count
>

And when Slobo's regime falls there will remain only one facist state in
Europe, so called REPUBLIC OF CROATIA.

[Barry S. Marjanovich]

On Sun, 9 Mar 1997, Johnny Byrne (EVIL SLOBo's SERVant) wrote:

Subject: Yugo-slave-ia: A Man-Made Disaster

The following story appeared in The Pittsburgh Post-Gazette on Sept. 17,
written by Anthony Lewis, a syndicated columnist for The New York Times:
sssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss
BOSTON - When Bosnia declared its independence in April 1992, Serbian
paramilitaries poured across the border to kill and terrorize the Bosnian
Muslims of eastern Bosnia. On April 6 the last American ambassador to
Yugoslavia, Warren Zimmermann, protested to the Serbian leader Slobodan
Milosevic.

"Not a single Serb from Serbia" was involved, Milosevic insisted.
Zimmermann replied that Belgrade television had shown a Serbian gangster
known as Arkan swaggering on the debris of Bosnian towns. Milosevic said
that Arkan was " no more than a simple sweetshop owner."

Recalling that numbing example of cold-blooded Milosevic lying, Zimmermann
comments: "Arkan, who did own an ice cream parlor in Belgrade, was a
sweetshop owner in the same sense that Dian O'Banion, the Chicago
gangster and Al Capone's rival, was a florist."

Warren Zimmermann has written a book about the horrors and frustrations of
Yugoslavia's disintegration. It is called "Origins of a Catastrophe," and
I think it is the most gripping and the most important book in a very long
time about the way evil can triumph in the world.

It is a book at once dispassionate and passionate. As a Foreign Service
officer, Zimmmermann has no bias for any party, in Yugoslavia or America.
But he pulls no punches in describing those who caused the disaster in
Bosnia and those in the West whose weakness let it happen.

The first of many lessons is that the savagery was not caused by "ancient
hatreds," that chestnut produced by Western leaders as an excuse for their
inaction. It resulted from "the conscious actions of nationalist leaders
who co-opted, intimidated, circumvented or eliminated all opposition to
their demagogic designs."

The prime agent in stirring up "some of the most horrendous crimes the
world has witnessed in Europe since the Holocaust" was Milosevic. After
arousing Serb nationalism he infiltrated federal troops into Bosnia in
large numbers so that, when the break came, the Serbs there had an
overpowering military advantage.

But there was also Radovan Karadzic, the Bosnian Serb leader: "His
apartheid philosophy was more extreme than anything concocted in South
Africa...In his fanaticism, ruthlessness and contempt for human values, he
invites comparison with a monster from another generation, Heinrich
Himmler." His military commander, Ratko Mladic, was as well "a war
criminal of Nazi proportions."

Beginning in July 1992, Zimmermann pressed for NATO air strikes against
the Serbian aggressors. He believes that "a negotiated result would soon
have followed." But two American administrations turned away. And the
Europeans, "led in retreat by the British," were no better.

The greatest American mistake of the Yugoslav crisis, he writes, was the
refusal of President Bush to commit U.S. power early on. "The Vietman
syndrome and the [Colin] Powell doctrine proved to be powerful dampers on
action."

The Defense Department and the Joint Chiefs of Staff objected to one idea
after another for helping beleaguered Bosnia, Zimmermann says: to
imposition of a no-fly zone, to a supply airlift to Sarajevo, to
protection of land relief routes and to President Clinton's proposal for
airdrops to besieged towns. But when their objections were overridden,
they made the ideas work.

From 1992 to 1995, in Zimmermann's judgment, the West tried to stop the
Serbian aggressors "without making them fear that force would in turn be
used against them. Western diplomacy was reduced to a kind of cynical
theatre, to a pretense of useful activity, to a way of disguising a lack
of will."

Then came Dayton, which for a moment offered hope. But America and the
Europeans had no will to carry out its promises. The authors of evil so
chillingly described in Warren Zimmermann's book are still alive and well.

EVIL C EVIL
sssssssssssssssssssssssssssC + Csssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss
EVIL C EVIL

[mUSE^cDN]

Boris Petrov wrote:
>
> A-C Newsletter - 2/28/97 - O Naletilicu-Tuti
>
> "The American-Croatian Newsletter", February 28, 1997
> (izvadak prvi)
>
> Bosanski dnevnik - Zagreb
>
> Uhicenje Mladena Tute-Naletilica, zapovjednika tzv. Kaznjenicke
> bojne HVO-a (m.n.: koja iz zasjede smakla hrvatskog i bosanskog
> generala Blazu Kraljevica), inace visestrukog kriminalca i
> dokazanog suradnika Udbe (m.n.: ne suradnika nego visokog
> Udbaskog operativca) pretstavlja vise politicki nego pravni cin.
> Nema nikakve sumnje da je akcija koju je provela hrvatska policija,
> a sam Mladen Naletilic (m.n.: u dijaspori nazivan hrvatskim
> Charles Manson-om) uhicen u Splitu, usmjerena na eliminaciju
> kriminalnog djela celnistva tzv. Herceg-Bosne koji je s jedne
> strane u Bosni i Hercegovini ometao djelovanje Federacije BiH, te
> stalno izazivao napetost sa Muslimanima-Bosnjacima, a s druge
> strane ozbiljno naskodio polozaju Hrvatske u svijetu. To je dokaz
> da je Zagreb (m.n.: to jest HDZ-vska mafijaska komanda
> lokalnim podruznicama mafije) na kraju morao popustiti
> medjunarodnom pritisku da se oslobodi balasta koji mu je dosad
> natovarila na ledja hercegovacka mafija u kojoj je Mladen
> Naletilic-Tuta bio samo jedan od glavnih izvrsitelja. (M.n.: Hrvatska
> se stvarno moze osloboditi HDZ-ovske mafije tek na dolazecim
> izborima a onda izvodjenjem vodecih kriminalaca, poglavito Franje
> Tudjmana i Gojka Suska pred sud). Uhicenje Mladena Naletilica i
> njegove skupine od dvadesetak suradnika dovodi se u vezu s
> "dogadjajima" u Mostaru. Hapsenjem je bitno ugrozen i sam Gojko
> Susak kao celnik i glavni naredbodavac "tvrdjoj" hercegovackoj
> struji u Zagrebu i Hrvatskoj. (M.n.: Autor Vjekoslav Krsnik sugerira
> da ima kao boljih i losijih HDZ-ovskih kriminalaca - no SVI su
> kriminalci !)
>
> PS: U istom broju gosp. Krsnik objavljuje jedan dopis - zabunom
> pod mojim imenom. Ja se sjecam da sam ga negdje procitao no
> nisam autor tog dopisa.
>
> Boris Petrovcic

Unless you can post this in Greek,Russian..etc why waste bandwidth ?

[Miro STROMAR]

Geoff Cooper wrote:
>
> So you're trying to hook your wagon to the oppressed Palestinian
> propaganda machine?

No, our wagon is rolling nicely, has been since 1991 in spite of efforts
by John Minor and Bush Bandit.

> Go back to Mittel-Europe!

It is Mittel-Europa, you illetarate cowboy!

> Geoff Cooper
>
> The atoms of Democritus
> and Newton's particles of light
> Are sands upon the Red Sea shore,
> where Israel's tents do shine so bright.
>
> William Blake

It is the banks of Mississippi where Geronimo's tents were burning so
bright - in name of democracy!

[Jason Menayan]

In article <3324D7...@ix.netcom.com>, Geoff Cooper
<gcoo...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

> Miro STROMAR wrote:
>
> > WE do not send anything to s.c.jewish!
> >
> > It is swerbian propagandists who are trying to hitch their squeeky wagon
> > to the well greased jewish propagnada train by declaring brotherhood in
> > being victims! So when WE respond, the response goes to all the groups!
> >
> > Try writing to chukurov istead.
> >
> > Best reagards, long live free Palestine!
>

> So you're trying to hook your wagon to the oppressed Palestinian

> propaganda machine? Go back to Mittel-Europe!

Miro Stromar is an utter idiot. He is pretty much ignored or ridiculed on
soc.culture.croatia.

--
Jason Menayan
iszx...@szlixp.next
Homepage coming soon.
If you would like to mail me, remove the x's and z's from my address

[Barry S. Marjanovich]

On Sun, 9 Mar 1997, Johnny Byrne (Evil SLOBo's SERVant) wrote:

Subject: "SHELL THEM 'TILL THEY'RE ON THE EDGE OF MADNESS" (fwd)

The following article appeared in the Anthony Lewis column "Abroad at
Home" of The New York Times on Jan. 5, 1996:

Boston- How did Yugoslavia descend into the savagery that killed 200,000
people and made two million refugees? It is a question of single
importance, not just for history but as a key to seeing that it does not
happen again, there or elsewhere.

We now have a documented answer, powerfully convincing in its evidence.
It is a five-hour television series. "Yugoslavia: Death of a Nation,"
shown on the BBC and then here, between Christmas and New Year's, on the
Discovery Channel.

Western politicians and commentators who wanted to close their eyes to
the horror in the former Yugoslavia have often said that it was caused by
"ancient hatreds." Americans, they said- or Britons or whoever- should
not get involved in such impenetrable ethnic-religious conflicts.

But it was not "ancient hatreds" that produced ethnic cleansing, rape and
concentration camps. It was men: ambitious men who stirred up extreme
nationalist emotions as a way to power. It was one man above all,
Slobodan Milosevic of Serbia. "Death of a Nation" makes that unarguably
clear.

We see Mr. Milosevic at the beginning of his manipulations: addressing a
Serbian crowd in the predominantly Albanian province of Kosovo in April
1987. The crowd provokes a police detachment, mostly Albanian. A man
shouts, "The police attacked us". Mr. Milosevic says, "You will not be
beaten again." It was all arranged- and Belgrade television showed the
scene with Mr. Milosevic as a Serbian hero.

That and many other scenes are amazing examples of contemporaneous
footage found by the independent British producers who made the series,
Brian Lapping Associates. There is even film taken secretly by Serbian
intelligence. And there are gripping interviews.

Radovan Karadzic, the Bosnian Serb leader who has been indicted for war
crimes, says that when Bosnia declared its independence in April 1992,
Mr. Milosevic "couldn't care less if Bosnia was recognized. He said:
'Caligula proclaimed his horse a senator, but the horse never took his
seat. Bosnia will get recognition, but...'"

When Mr. Milosevic decided to attack Croatia in the summer of 1991, he
used volunteers under the extremist paramilitary leader Vojislav Seselj.
The Yugoslav Federal Army provided weapons, uniforms and transportation.
The paramilitaries burned civilians alive and left the bodies as a message.

Again in 1992, when the attack on Bosnia began, Mr. Milosevic sought to
avoid responsibility. One of his aides says that he "pulled a fast one"-
transferred every Serb in the Federal Army to Bosnian Serb forces while
continuing to pay and supply them.

The first major attack on the town of Zvornik in Bosnia: a terrifying
onslaught that left 2,000 Bosnian Muslim civilians "unaccounted for".
Vojislav Seselj's paramilitaries were there, and he tells an interviewer:
"Milosevic was in absolute control. It was all planned in Belgrade."

Mr. Milosevic is not the only Yugoslav figure shown in the series as a
cold-blooded manipulator, but he is special. The President of Slovenia,
Milan Kucan, says: "With Milosevic you never can relax. Show him a
finger, and he'll have your arm off."

One of the most arresting aspects of the series is the evidence of how
Western weakness encouraged the genocidal aggression. Mr. Milosevic sent
a secret envoy to Moscow before attacking Croatia, and the Soviet
military said its intelligence showed that the West would not respond. It
was good intelligence.

Dr. Karadzic, speaking to an interviewer, confirms what critics of
American and European policy have maintained - that we could have stopped
it. "I knew," he says, "that if the West put in 10,000 men to cut off our
supply corridor, we Serbs would be finished."

Those who are skeptical of television's potential as a medium for
sustained journalism of a high order should see this series and think
again. So should those American politicians who tell us that we should be
content with the degraded trash that the free market mostly brings to the
screen.

There are more remarkable moments in the series than a column can even
suggest. For me the most chilling is the voice of Ratko Mladic, the
Bosnian Serb general, telling his men on the hills overlooking Sarajevo:
"Shell the presidency and the Parliament. Target Muslim neighborhoods -
not many Serbs live there. Shell them 'till they're on the edge of madness."

ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss
SERVIAN SATAN SLOB-O MILOSEVIC IS GOING TO PAY FOR THE HORRIBLE CRIMES IN
BOSNIA AND CROATIA. SERVIAN WAR CRIMINALS AND THEIR SERVants WILL ALSO PAY!
ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss