When America falls, how it will be remembered ?
Armageddon Watch
by Jesse Ogden
Often when I discuss with friends and acquaintances – the ones who
haven't deluded themselves into thinking that this current president is
less dangerous and corrupt than just about any other president – about
the state of the country, I will strike upon the point that America is
an empire full of people who don't pay very much attention to history
or what has happened to every empire in existence. There have been
many, many empires throughout history, and while Americans are able to
name a few, who can honestly say that they have ever heard of the
Elamite Empire, the Khwarezm-shah Empire, the Mauryan Empire, the
Central African Empire, or the myriad of other cultures and nations
that sought domination, only to find that they have faded into the
annals of history, only to be known by the very serious scholars.
The problem with empires being notable and remembered throughout
history is that they rarely offer much, besides the standard death and
destruction. Plus, most empires don't last long enough to really do
anything notable. The lifespan of the average empire is a few hundred
years, and much of that time is being spent on expanding the hegemony
of that empire through any means necessary. This all leaves us with one
question, when the empire of the United States falls, and it will at
some point, what will America be noted for in the history books?
It's hard to make any estimation on what America will be remembered for
since it's hard to estimate where its road will lead it to and what
people it will affect. America, as an empire, probably will fall in
about another 20-100 years, one hundred at a very generous best, but I
think it's safe to assume that it will probably be somewhere around mid-
21st century, unless we truly have some history-making moments sometime
soon. The nation has the weapons, the resources, and enough morale to
keep going on when the going gets tough – this is all going on the
assumption that the Boobus Americanus leaders don't do anything to
cause nuclear warfare or convince foreign terrorists to do even worse
and heinous acts of course – but unfortunately, America has rarely ever
seen a conflict that it can say "no" to. The cracks in the empire's
foundation have already appeared as over the years it has committed
itself to many alliances and the "ordinary vicissitudes" of the world's
politics while searching abroad for monsters to destroy.
I can fancy some guesses at what those who will write the history books
about America will say, a long time down the road. I can see them
starting out by going to many lengths to discuss America's idealistic
beginnings, with focus placed on the various words and writings of
Washington, Jefferson, Franklin, Paine, and Madison, as well as a large
focus on the Declaration of Independence, Constitution and Bill of
Rights, Federalist Papers and Anti-Federalist Papers. A few may point
out that what caused the American government to expand was the
abandonment of the Articles of Confederation and the adoption of the
Constitution, as well as the writings of Hamilton, Madison, and Jay in
The Federalist Papers.
The next major topic to be covered would be expansion. Very likely a
debate will rage on with historians about when America's empire truly
began. Some will say that America's empire started when it began
expanding into, and taking, the Indian territories nearby through
violent means. Some will say the Manifest Destiny out west and the
Mexican War marked the beginning of America's empire. And still others
will say America didn't officially become an empire until the Spanish-
American War.
The Civil War will probably be glossed over though, with little
attention focused on it. By this time, the PC crowd will have fully
sucked the truth out of the war, and so the war will just be brushed
off as a fight over slavery. Though I suppose it's possible that there
will be historians who might be able to accurately document America's
civil war.
The next target of focus would be the World Wars, the Cold War, and
America's rise to dominance and power. I imagine that as the historians
ponder on about the fall of the empire, they'll look to this era and
label it as misguided attempts to try and straighten out every problem
in the world that ultimately cost America the spirit that made them
truly unique. This era will be noted for revealing the inevitability of
America's future and its impending fall.
The final focus will be on what led up to the American Empire's fall.
The escapades of Reagan, Clinton, both Bushes, and whoever the
successors may be, will be fully documented, as it will mark the
beginning of the end. The historians will recount America's strategy to
nation-build country after country with brute force, while remaining
constantly stuck in binding alliances, a strategy that would blow up in
their faces eventually and mark the end of the American Empire.
However, while there will be focus on the stages of America's
development, it's possible that America might be seen as a brutal,
manipulating, opportunistic nation, it all really depends on who is
writing our history. The leaders have succeeded in alienating just
about every country away from America, so the ones who write our
history just might have an old bone to pick with America. Could you
imagine an Afghani or an Iraqi being in charge of writing history? How
much of America's good side would actually come through?
They're all rough guesses of course, and not certain in any way, but
the fact remains that as long as America goes down its current path,
our history may one day be forgotten or completely subjected to how
others will view America's history.
Which is really quite funny, in a cynical way, since most Americans
don't even pay attention to their country's history.
September 9, 2003
Jesse Ogden is a high school student in Michigan.
http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig4/ogden5.html
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Michael W Cook
l.106426049...@adsl-63-207-175-147.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net,
Armageddon Watch at u3586...@spawnkill.ip-mobilphone.net wrote on 22/9/03
8:54 pm:
Interesting view, and likely not so far from the truth.
For a shortened view they will probably mention the blind US support for the
troublesome nation in the Middle East we call Israel. They'll also probably
mention the US's overwhelming military superiority, which was humbled time
and time again by small armed fractions and organised guerrilla tactics.
Then they'll probably say something about the total inability of the US in
gaining the respect of those they invaded or try to impose themselves upon.
After that it'll mention how the President and those in office were complete
whores to the large corporations; who were the REAL people who ran America
and dictated policy.
They'll also probably discuss the bent political system, and how you needed
$20+ million if you wanted to become president, and also how once in office
it had to be repaid.
After that, there'll be a short interval before the final broadcast of the
evening from our most blessed and gracious leader in Bejing.
MWC
Michael W Cook
Castles Abbeys and Medieval Buildings
http://www.castles-abbeys.co.uk
--
captain!
"Armageddon Watch" <u3586...@spawnkill.ip-mobilphone.net> wrote in message
news:l.106426049...@adsl-63-207-175-147.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net...
you can tell.
TonyaK911
> "Armageddon Watch" <u3586...@spawnkill.ip-mobilphone.net> wrote in message
> news:l.106426049...@adsl-63-207-175-147.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net...
> > Will America Be Reinterpreted One Day?
> >
> > by Jesse Ogden
> > September 9, 2003
> >
> > Jesse Ogden is a high school student in Michigan.
>
>
> you can tell.
In Michigan, high school dropouts and state senators (Mr. Levine) are
on the same plane when it comes to denigrading their country - way too
many Muslims in that state, and it starts showing!
TK9
Peter Jason
And Robocop I & II!
And Fight Club!
And The Blob!
But we hope someone FILMS the fall, so some future Gibbon can be the
narrator.
Of course, Hawii would fall too which would be whole purpose of the
excercise.
* Snort *
"Gabe" <ghe...@cc.owu.edu> wrote in message
news:af27f894.03092...@posting.google.com...
> You people write as if American power is based solely on military
> supremacy. Have you heard of something called "economics" involving
> stuff called "money?" America seems historically to fare well in this
> department. Islamic gorrilla [sic] attacks will not destroy the
> McEmpire.
BernardZ
ghe...@cc.owu.edu says...
> You people write as if American power is based solely on military
> supremacy. Have you heard of something called "economics" involving
> stuff called "money?" America seems historically to fare well in this
> department. Islamic gorrilla [sic] attacks will not destroy the
> McEmpire.
>
As well as that the US today is the major center in the world for
scientific, culture, movies, history and sports.
Barry Smith
"BernardZ" <Berna...@OPTUShotmail.com remove OPTUS> wrote in message
news:MPG.19dad4316146736498978f@news...
definitely debatable as American sport is widely ignored outside the US..
At one time, the Arab world were the major scientific and cultural force,
but it didn't stop them losing their power..
Olusculum
"BernardZ" <Berna...@OPTUShotmail.com remove OPTUS> wrote in message
news:MPG.19dad4316146736498978f@news...
> As well as that the US today is the major center in the world for
> scientific, culture, movies, history and sports.
>
Culture? any great music or book or philosophy or architecture that will be
remembered and used a models? you mean pop and metal music and Crichton and
King's novels are Culture? or shitting on a canvas like Pollock and Andy
Warhol did is considered to be Culture? Blockbusters are Culture? i guess
you mix it all up, entertainment isn't Culture, my good fellow.
Christopher Adams
> Culture? any great music or book or philosophy or architecture that will
> be remembered and used a models? you mean pop and metal music and
> Crichton and King's novels are Culture?
King's the modern Dickens, so yes, at least in that instance. There's a reason
he won the National Book Award this year.
--
Christopher Adams - SUTEKH Functions Officer 2003
Factual Errors: Punching a shark in the nose as it's coming to attack you will
result in you being eaten, not in the shark trying to surface.
Michael W Cook
Berna...@OPTUShotmail.com remove OPTUS wrote on 23/9/03 12:06 pm:
Let's look a little closely at this sentence shall we ?
Scientific - the US has the most money for scientific research, but many of
the scientists come from other countries and only work in America ?
Culture - Rap, McDonalds, drive-by shootings, country & western, Fox News.
Movies - America produces the biggest movies, but the best ?
Many of the technicians in Hollywood are British or European.
History - Braveheart or U-571 ?
Or do you mean American academics who study history ?
Usually the history of Britain and Europe.
Sports - the US is the world leader of drug taking in sport and ways to
avoid detection.
MWC
Amir.M
"BernardZ" <Berna...@OPTUShotmail.com remove OPTUS> wrote in message news:MPG.19dad4316146736498978f@news...
Nobody plays American sports you dickhead
Maybe basketball but thats it
And even in basketball Yugo are the world champions
So get lost you imbecille
>
>
>
Josema
"BernardZ" <Berna...@OPTUShotmail.com remove OPTUS> escribió en el
mensaje news:MPG.19dad4316146736498978f@news...
Oh, yes, this is absolutelly true if one thinks with Merkin brain: The World
is USA, so Merkins are the best in the World...plain and easy. LOL!!!!
Who, except Merkins are so stupid to call "World cup" to cups where only
Merkins play?...
Merkinland vetoing free medicine (generic cheap medicine) for Third World,
polluting the planet while denying Kyoto and investing ten more times on
militar research than on civil welfare, creators of Napalm, clustering bombs
and atomic bomb over Hiroshima and Nagasaki, can be, for sure, "major center
in the world for scientific". And, sure, asking the street daily Merkin who
Ghandi was and the Merkin asking in wich team that man played can
demonstrate "Merkinland is the center in the world for culture". Looking at
the path of destruction, arrogance and blackmail Merkinland freely gives the
planet one can see "Merkinland is the center of the world for history". And
movies, well, look at the propaganda shits they shove down our throats...
Wake up!. Merkinland is only the major center in Merkinland. Fullstop.
Cheers,
Josema
melektaus
Hindsight can produce some interesting re-evaluations.
Shakespeare was looked down upon by the snobs of his day like Sir Philip
Sidney as being popular entertainment and unbearably pleibian. 19th century
academia probably saw Twain's "Huckleberry Finn" as being beneath serious
consideration for the canon. "Moby Dick" was considered merely a sea
adventure until about 30 years after it was written. Germanophile
musicologists considered 19th century Italian opera to be popular
entertainment and not "serious" like Wagner (this bias even existed in
the US). Jazz in the 1920s was considered by the American cultural
guardians to be merely dance music. ( This attitude would persist in
some circles even later ; e.g. Adorno's dismissal of not just jazz but
Ravel as being "rhythmic" and thus not serious ) etc. etc. etc. So we
never know what hindsight will bring.
I will state that it is really questionable how "American" the film
industry is - other than the fact that it seems to be reluctant in this
era to use non-American characters and settings ( far different from the
past, even the recent past ). The English language cinema has been
essentially internationalized probably since some time in the 60s. So
called "American" films contain talent from many countries in front of and
behind the cameras, especially other Anglophone nations. The business side
is still in LA and NYC, but the real "entertainment capital of the world"
where films and TV are made is...Vancouver.
captain!
"Barry Smith" <tw2...@aardvark.net.au.NOSPAM> wrote in message
news:3f7033f8$1...@news.comindico.com.au...
is that why the super bowl has millions of viewers all over the globe?
captain!
"Olusculum" <1...@1.com> wrote in message
news:3f703c43$0$19233$79c1...@nan-newsreader-01.noos.net...
>
how about all of their inventions? as twinkie likes to say, your computer
and the internet are both american inventions.
Renia
be
and
Noop. Both British inventions.
Michael W Cook
killspam...@deadspammers.net wrote on 23/9/03 9:37 pm:
Most are just curious as to why you play such a silly game, when there was a
perfectly decent game with an oval ball already - AND they don't wear all
that padding either.
MWC
Fabian
"Josema" <a@b.c> wrote in message
news:3f709ab9$0$79064$45be...@newscene.com...
> Oh, yes, this is absolutelly true if one thinks with Merkin brain: The
World
> is USA, so Merkins are the best in the World...plain and easy. LOL!!!!
This must be what you're thinking of:
http://sacha.global-village.net/jokes/multimedia/america.gif
--
--
Fabian
Humans have to stop treating each other like they treat us ants. Think
about it. If we build, say, a pair of very tall structures, like two
anthills side-by-side, some stupid human swoops in out of nowhere and
knocks them down. Or humans will drop food on the ground near us. we
think it's for us, but those same humans will also try to kill us! I
have no sense of irony, I'm just an ant. But if I did, I'm sure I'd
notice that.
Fabian
> how about all of their inventions? as twinkie likes to say, your
computer
> and the internet are both american inventions.
The Internet is a European invention. The original CPU which is the
basis of the current mainstram (the 4004 iirc) and on which all modern
CPUs are designed to be backwards compatoble with, is a Japanese
invention. The USA is merely the populariser of these things.
-= Ö§âmâ ßíñ Këñoßí =-®
wrote:
>>> King's novels are Culture? or shitting on a canvas like Pollock and
>>> Andy Warhol did is considered to be Culture? Blockbusters are
>>> Culture? i guess you mix it all up, entertainment isn't Culture, my
>>> good fellow.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>
>
> how about all of their inventions? as twinkie likes to say, your
> computer and the internet are both american inventions.
>
>
> Noop. Both British inventions.
Amerikans think they invented everything. They don't even realize how
many of their movies and TV shows are remakes of foreign ones. All this
reality TV crap that is sweeping Amerika for instance, copied from shows
that have been around in Europe and Japan for decades. Or take a look at
Amerikan children's shows, 95% Japanese. Amerikan cars? All predominately
Japanese and European designs, Germany owns 3/4 of U$ car manufacturers
now anyway. Amerikans computers? Made in Taiwan, Mexico, Malaysia, Costa
Rica, etc. The hamburger wasn't even invented in Amerika, you damned
fools!
Amerika is full of ignorant brats who have no respect for the rest of the
world. Amerika is a country that has a problem with overeating while
dozens of countries across the world are starving.
Maybe it's time for the Africans to start eating those plump Amerikans?
Nah, that would be unhealthy, Amerikans are full of cancer.
--
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dudalb
Britian is no longer a major power and they hate the US because of that.
E. C. Lee
You know, I agree that many, many Americans can't look past their
belly buttons and think the world revolves around them. However, I
really don't think it's fair to discount the many achievements that
have taken place in the USA. In fact, part of the reason there are a
lot of interesting cultural developments is because it's a culture
that has had many different influences from other places. The
combinations make interesting results. Jazz, for example, in music
and dance. And blues. We also have Cajun and Creole music. Woody
Guthrie. Duke Ellington. George and Ira Gershwin. Leonard Bernstein.
Rock N Roll. Bluegrass. Etc. etc. etc.
There's the spectacular cuisines of New Orleans. Likewise there are
many other significant regional cuisines. New England, Southwestern,
Southern, etc. It's not all McDonald's.
There are the novels of Faulkner, Hemingway, and Fitzgerald. Edith
Wharton. Moby Dick, Catcher in the Rye. The Beat movement.
Tennessee Williams, Arthur Miller. And though the above poster may
not like Abstract Expressionism, it was a significant movement that
introduced new elements to consider on how one does and how one looks
at art. In painting there were also the regionalists, like Edward
Hopper. The great artists of the twenties like O'Keefe, Davies,
Hartley and Marin. And there have been many world class photographers
as well. Stiechen, Stiegliez, Weston, Adams, Arbus, Avedon.
Architects like Sullivan and Frank Lloyd Wright. Avante garde
performance artists like Laurie Andersen and Bill Viola. The Kitchen.
Not to mention all the greatness that can be found in Native American
cultures.
I've left out a great deal. A great, great deal. Of people and of
movements. High culture, pop culture. Fine arts, applied arts,
graphic arts, crafts. This is just a small fraction of figures of
cultural significance that came out of America.
I'm sorry, there's a lot of trash in America, and right now there's a
lot one CAN trash, criticize and complain about, but anyone who
blanketly bashes the place is ignorant and losing out on that which is
good. I'm hardly saying we are the best culture, or one that everyone
should emulate. That would be ridiculous. And it's unfortunate that
the very things that do seem to culturally represent the US are
usually the very worst we have to offer. But we DO have a lot tthat
is worthwhile.
This shouldn't be a pissing contest over which country is best.
That's nonsense! We should appreciate whatever greatness we can get
from whatever place it comes from, instead of this moronic hooray for
our team, your team sucks!
JMHO,
Eve
Peter Jason
"-= Ö§âmâ ßíñ Këñoßí =-®" <ab...@anarchy.gov> wrote in message
news:Xns93FFCBF2...@r2-dv8.anarchy.gov...
They make good movies, though.
Tron Furu
"E. C. Lee" <afro...@yahoo.com> skrev i melding
> > Noop. Both British inventions.
As if anyone "invented" anything ever. All invention is a gradual, staged
process of development, more often than not springing out of some collective
technological effort. Printing, steam engine, air plane, car, etc. etc. The
Germans have the world's first calculator (W. Schickard, 1592 - 1635) , and
the "first computer" (K. Zuse) , too. No V. Bush, no computer, no Internet.
No Russell/Whitehead, Moore, no V. Bush. No Frege, No Russell etc. No
Leibniz, no Frege; no Aquinas, no Leibniz; no Aristotle, no Aquinas.
>
> You know, I agree that many, many Americans can't look past their
> belly buttons and think the world revolves around them. However, I
> really don't think it's fair to discount the many achievements that
> have taken place in the USA. In fact, part of the reason there are a
> lot of interesting cultural developments is because it's a culture
> that has had many different influences from other places. The
> combinations make interesting results.
Culture is like any worthwhile cheese, full of interesting organic
compounds, yeast and microbes. From a few paces away, though, you only catch
the mottled look and the smell. Everyone I know that has been to America,
has had nothing but good things to say about especially the people, and many
traits of the culture, minus any personal hobbyhorse biases. The strange
thing is how this translates into US Foreign politics (insert cheese analogy
here).
USA has a lot of power, but power must first of all be informed; sometimes
doubts may arise as to whether that obtains in all of US foreign relations,
which is strange, because American _business_ certainly must have its share
of analytical and far calculating thinkers.
And it's unfortunate that
> the very things that do seem to culturally represent the US are
> usually the very worst we have to offer.
How is that achieved?
>
> This shouldn't be a pissing contest over which country is best.
> That's nonsense! We should appreciate whatever greatness we can get
> from whatever place it comes from, instead of this moronic hooray for
> our team, your team sucks!
Yes, yes, and yes.
A flamier response would include: Reasonableness in the face of criticism.
Where is this reasonableness when the US is not criticised? (i.e. "who
started it", "tu quoque" and other meaningfulishness). A call for
consistency, and projecting of this attitude not in privatim, but
collectively. Those, I believe, are the perceived discrepancies.
T
Michael W Cook
dalb...@earthlink.net wrote on 24/9/03 4:15 am:
> Michael Cook has British disease:
> Britian is no longer a major power and they hate the US because of that.
Michael Cook has a disease that the greater majority of the world also has
outside of the US:
We don't like Bush and his bully-boy Neo-con friends.
Like the rest of the world we also disapprove of the US and the UK invading,
unprovoked, a sovereign nation, with evidence based on nothing more than
lies lies and more damn lies.
Is that clearer now ?
Good.
Perhaps now you can get back to supporting your President's 'War on Terror',
or maybe we should really call it a 'War of Terror'.
MWC
BernardZ
amirxx@you_suck_it_down says...
There are few games that are played everywhere in the world but some of
notable ones are boxing, golf, tennis, horse racing, sailing, motor car
racing, chess and of course the Olympic games.
In all the above the US does very well.
>
> So get lost you imbecille
You get lost!
>
>
>
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
--
If you believe there are witches, and you look hard, you will probably
find them; they did so in the Middle Ages.
BernardZ
Historians and archologist etc.
> Sports is
> definitely debatable as American sport is widely ignored outside the US..
Depends what sport some that are not ignored are
Olympic games
Boxing
golf
tennis
horse racing
sailing
motor car racing
chess
> At one time, the Arab world were the major scientific and cultural force,
> but it didn't stop them losing their power..
To be a scientific and culture force you need money as well as a
receptive society. The Arab society today have neither in abundance.
Tron Furu
"BernardZ" <Berna...@REMOVEhotmail.com to reply take out REMOVE> skrev i
melding news:0afd514323a6bab3...@news.teranews.com...
> > History?? Not sure what you mean by that..
>
> Historians and archologist etc.
>
> > Sports is
> > definitely debatable as American sport is widely ignored outside the
US..
>
> Depends what sport some that are not ignored are
> Olympic games
> Boxing
> golf
> tennis
> horse racing
> sailing
> motor car racing
> chess
Yes .... and now for naming some american sports:
T
BernardZ
says...
Never said I was talking of purely American sports.
My point is that the US is a major international sport center. All these
examples are of international sports where the US is either the
international leader or if not very close to being so.
Mind you I could go on.
Ice skating
Skin diving
Shooting
Running
Archery
>
>
>
>
>
> T
C.C. Baxter
"BernardZ" <Berna...@REMOVEhotmail.com to reply take out REMOVE> escribió
en el mensaje news:73deb2bb70c41485...@news.teranews.com...
> > >
> > > > Sports is
> > > > definitely debatable as American sport is widely ignored outside the
> > US..
> > >
> > > Depends what sport some that are not ignored are
> > > motor car racing
> >
> > Yes .... and now for naming some american sports:
>
> Never said I was talking of purely American sports.
>
> My point is that the US is a major international sport center. All these
> examples are of international sports where the US is either the
> international leader or if not very close to being so.
>
Motor car racing? Which motor car racing? Formula 1?
--
Buddy
Michael W Cook
Berna...@REMOVEhotmail.com to reply take out REMOVE wrote on 24/9/03
12:17 pm:
> boxing, golf, tennis, horse racing, sailing, motor car
> racing, chess and of course the Olympic games.
>
> In all the above the US does very well.
But who invented those games ?
Boxing - UK
Golf - UK
Horse racing - Nor sure on that, possibly the Arabs.
Sailing - Prehistoric Man.
Motor Car Racing - UK
Chess - Medieval ?
Olympic Games - Greece.
Most US invented games are insignificant outside of the US, and in the
greater majority of countries are classed as minor sports.
MWC
E. C. Lee
mine.
> As if anyone "invented" anything ever. All invention is a gradual, staged
> process of development, more often than not springing out of some collective
> technological effort. Printing, steam engine, air plane, car, etc. etc. The
> Germans have the world's first calculator (W. Schickard, 1592 - 1635) , and
> the "first computer" (K. Zuse) , too. No V. Bush, no computer, no Internet.
> No Russell/Whitehead, Moore, no V. Bush. No Frege, No Russell etc. No
> Leibniz, no Frege; no Aquinas, no Leibniz; no Aristotle, no Aquinas.
> >
> > You know, I agree that many, many Americans can't look past their
> > belly buttons and think the world revolves around them. However, I
> > really don't think it's fair to discount the many achievements that
> > have taken place in the USA. In fact, part of the reason there are a
> > lot of interesting cultural developments is because it's a culture
> > that has had many different influences from other places. The
> > combinations make interesting results.
>
> Culture is like any worthwhile cheese, full of interesting organic
> compounds, yeast and microbes. From a few paces away, though, you only catch
> the mottled look and the smell. Everyone I know that has been to America,
> has had nothing but good things to say about especially the people, and many
> traits of the culture, minus any personal hobbyhorse biases. The strange
> thing is how this translates into US Foreign politics (insert cheese analogy
> here).
>
How much does any foreign policy reflect the actuall make-up of the
people? Maybe it does at times. I don't think this is one of them.
There are people who agree with the government's current policies, but
a heck of a lot who don't. Many are just as angry as the rest of the
world about what's going on. It's truly foolish to assume that policy
of America=Americans. America is a huge place, with a LOT of
different people, talents and opinions. Although it's in the best
interest of some to make us all one big undifferentiated mass, in
reality it can't be done. Certain people are currently in power.
They are supported by many people for many different reasons. And
there many people who also oppose them.
Likewise the business world, which has the means and opportunity to
represent America, rarely does so for altruistic or patriotic reasons.
They are doing it to make money. That's their purpose. They tend to
give the lowest common denominator because that give them the optimum
opportunity to make money. The very best of us is not always the most
marketable and therefore the most visable to others.
> USA has a lot of power, but power must first of all be informed; sometimes
> doubts may arise as to whether that obtains in all of US foreign relations,
ITA. At least in the first part. I'm not sure what you're trying to
say in the second part. Is it that those who run the country aren't
always informed? If that's twhat you're saying, ITA. There's
definitely a case of tunnel vision. Also a problem in carrying ideas
through to their possible conclusions. A lack of the chess game
mentality. You just don't plan your moves, you have to contemplate
the implications of the moves you make. There is a frightening lack
of that going on right now.
> which is strange, because American _business_ certainly must have its share
> of analytical and far calculating thinkers.
>
Of course, even the saviest of businessmen might be idiot savants.
Their brilliance in the boardroom may not translate beyond that. The
complications of running a country and being a part of the rest of the
world requires an incredible amount of talents in an incredible amount
of areas. This is what bothers me about people who vote "one issue".
As to our choices of leaders...I don't even want to get into that!
Frankly, I think a good written test should be required before anyone
can put their hat in the ring. It wouldn't hurt to have a better
informed populace, either.
> And it's unfortunate that
> > the very things that do seem to culturally represent the US are
> > usually the very worst we have to offer.
>
> How is that achieved?
>
I'd guess it's a money issue. The things you get are the things that
are brought to you by business. Their purpose isn't to spread
culture, it's to make money. They take the lowest common denominator
and mass market it to your public. McDonald's actually is a work of
genius. A work of marketing and organizational genius. It's not
great food. But what it does do, which is make money in an efficient
manner, is uncanny.
Some of our best cultural achievements have problems keeping
financially afloat here in the states. We used to have more
government funding but that's been eroding away. Is the rest of the
world clamouring for these things? If it was thought we could big
bucks out of them, you'd be seeing them in a hurry.
Sometimes things do catch on. Someone picks up on something and it
becomes a fashion. Sometimes it becomes more than that, like jazz. A
lot of things just remain obscure, until someone with enough pull is
able to say--"hey, look at this!"
Our films are easy to market. Some are utter crap, a few geniunely
good things sneak it. All dependent on the marketplace. Right now
the major film companies are not so discerning. There have been times
in the past where the product could be called "good culture" IMHO some
are even "great culture". Right now most of the best films are
independent and you're unlikely to see them.
As for television, some of it is incredible. Some is utter crap. I
know that the British get both. I also know that we get some of their
best and little of their worst. This has to do with how both systems
are run. I"m not saying that American televison is better. What I am
saying is that with careful choosing you can see that there are some
amazing things produced in America.
The US is a big place. There's a lot going on. It's easy to pick out
the drek because there's a lot of drek. And that drek is very
visable. And when you're angry at a place (and in many cases with
good right) it's easy to insult every aspect without qualification.
But when you do this, you're throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
> > This shouldn't be a pissing contest over which country is best.
> > That's nonsense! We should appreciate whatever greatness we can get
> > from whatever place it comes from, instead of this moronic hooray for
> > our team, your team sucks!
>
>
> Yes, yes, and yes.
>
As I said, I believe there is a lot that can be criticized, but if
it's not directed specifically at those things that are wrong, such an
opinion loses its credibility. If I hated America I'd criticize every
aspect of it. It wouldn't matter. But I don't. There are things
that I hate about it, and things that I like. Even things that I
love. IMHO, that makes those criticisms I do make more meanful. It's
not a case of mere badmouthing, which in the end renders opinion
useless. It's picking and choosing what I feel is right and what's
wrong. And it's not just America, but it's every place and every
thing.
I want to add that it's not just a case of badmouthing, either. A
blanket "my country (or sex, or religion or race or profession, etc.)
is great and everything it does is great" is no better.
> A flamier response would include: Reasonableness in the face of criticism.
> Where is this reasonableness when the US is not criticised? (i.e. "who
> started it", "tu quoque" and other meaningfulishness). A call for
> consistency, and projecting of this attitude not in privatim, but
> collectively. Those, I believe, are the perceived discrepancies.
>
Not sure what you're saying here. Are you saying that we should be
consistantly good about all things? I don't think anyone can do that!
And if there was an easy solution, I'd definitely go for it. Some of
the very nature of our virtues have the seeds of destruction within
them. Although I cherish democracy, it's easy to see how it can be
abused. There are opportunities to soar, and the dangers of
exploitation. The freedom of diversity is a great thing, IMHO our
finest virtue, but this can also leave an opening for destructive
extremism. The answer? Hell if I know. Whatever it is, it isn't an
easy one.
Probably I'd say that the best solutions would be better education and
a greater awareness of things on a global scale. But there's a lot of
muck to wade through to get there. People complain about American
education. Well, the stuff they're complaining about is FREE
education. IMHO if they shouldn't give credits to help those who pay
to send their children to private schools for a good educations. They
should be improving the educations of those who have no choice--which
is the most of the populace. Well, there's a lot I can go on about
this. I'll leave it at that!
As for "globalness" I think the internet can be a help here. It's a
way of meeting people and getting to know what others are thinking
beyond one's own backyard. For the most part we are prisoners of our
own limited experiences. It's not easy for most Americans to travel
or to see the world beyond stereotypes. Yet they need to get out and
see and learn more. They need to read something other than their own
newspapers for a change. And it's necessary to go out with an open
mind that's eager to learn, not to just make rash judgements. Or
course, this suggestion is hardly restricted to Americans.
JMHO,
Eve
Norma
"Michael W Cook" <mwc...@crusader-productions.com> wrote in message
news:BB9770DA.1011D%mwc...@crusader-productions.com...
Actually, Michael, we are a young country, and much of what we have invented
is combining inventions of other countries. I see this in the developing
countries as well. Norma
> MWC
>
Alex Filonov
> "captain!" <killspam...@deadspammers.net> wrote in message
> news:Cb2cb.217533
>
> > how about all of their inventions? as twinkie likes to say, your
> computer
> > and the internet are both american inventions.
>
> The Internet is a European invention. The original CPU which is the
Internet is a US invention, developed under DARPA program. Web (actually,
http protocol) is a European invention. Internet existed well before http
was invented.
> basis of the current mainstram (the 4004 iirc) and on which all modern
> CPUs are designed to be backwards compatoble with, is a Japanese
> invention. The USA is merely the populariser of these things.
4004 was invented by Intel, which is (and always was) a US company.
Invention was a side effect of work financed by Japan company, which
doesn't make it Japanese invention.
JGB
> Will America Be Reinterpreted One Day?
>
> by Jesse Ogden
>
>
>
> Often when I discuss with friends and acquaintances – the ones who
> haven't deluded themselves into thinking that this current president is
> less dangerous and corrupt than just about any other president – about
> the state of the country, I will strike upon the point that America is
> an empire full of people who don't pay very much attention to history
> or what has happened to every empire in existence.<
If and when America falls from power, it will probably be the
beginning
of a NEw Dark Ages, as in the aftermath of the fall of Rome. Possibly
China, or the European Union, or somebody would try to fill the void,
but they'd never be able to fill it in the same great way America has.
But Italy exists a prosperous country long after the fall of the Roman
Empire, and the US will continue to exist as a power, though perhaps
not a global superpower, but I doubt the world would benefit from a
reduction of US power and
influence. OTOH, if the democratic ideal and free trade become fully
ingrained in world consciousness, there might not be further need for
any
kind of "superpower." The next century will tell. It could either be a
global disaster, or everything might turn out just fine.
Bryn Fraser
Cook <mwc...@crusader-productions.com> writes
>After that it'll mention how the President and those in office were complete
>whores to the large corporations; who were the REAL people who ran America
>and dictated policy.
>
>They'll also probably discuss the bent political system, and how you needed
>$20+ million if you wanted to become president, and also how once in office
>it had to be repaid.
>
>After that, there'll be a short interval before the final broadcast of the
>evening from our most blessed and gracious leader in Bejing.
Then we get to watch a short opera about a bunch of Hayseeds who found a
sack of helmets and thought they would become Romans...
During the Interval a short comedy act about some Mafiosi who ate some
bad seafood and hallucinating, thought they had become Israelites...
--
Bryn Fraser
"I did not have sexual relations with that woman!" Bill Clinton
The Good Old Days, Days of Innocence...
Tron Furu
"BernardZ" <Berna...@REMOVEhotmail.com to reply take out REMOVE> skrev i
> In article <Csfcb.25150$os2.3...@news2.e.nsc.no>, tron...@frisurf.no
> says...
> >
> > "BernardZ" <Berna...@REMOVEhotmail.com to reply take out REMOVE>
skrev i
> > melding news:0afd514323a6bab3...@news.teranews.com...
> > > > History?? Not sure what you mean by that..
> > >
> > > Historians and archologist etc.
> > >
> > > > Sports is
> > > > definitely debatable as American sport is widely ignored outside the
> > US..
> > >
> > > Depends what sport some that are not ignored are
> > > Olympic games
> > > Boxing
> > > golf
> > > tennis
> > > horse racing
> > > sailing
> > > motor car racing
> > > chess
> >
> >
> > Yes .... and now for naming some american sports:
>
> Never said I was talking of purely American sports.
Never said you didn't, either. The previous poster's use of "American Sport"
only makes sense in the discussion about american cultural contributions if
read as "American SportS" (i.e. sports originating in the USA).
>
> My point is that the US is a major international sport center.
True.
All these
> examples are of international sports where the US is either the
> international leader or if not very close to being so.
True.
All in all I believe that the USA did and does and will contribute to
culture (ctc); however, as in all things, some opinions about this will be
erroneous, be it individual Americans' opinions on how much or how little
USA ctc, or individual non-Americans' opinion on how much and how little USA
ctc. (Lets keep non-individuals like media out of this ... for obvious
reasons .... but the larger the scale, the worse etc.).
If you deduct pure anti-americanism from this discussion, I think somebody
is trying to point out some individual's errors in the conception of USA
ctc. And any error on the "too much"-side by USAninas will of course only
fuel the fire of anti-Americanism.
Nobody likes a braggart; and making oneself up to be something one is not,
is simply one's own clear verdict - and condemnation - that one is not good
enough as one is.
T
Julian Richards
<NOccbaxt...@terra.es> wrote:
>Motor car racing? Which motor car racing? Formula 1?
Most of the Indy cars are built in the UK, in small workshops in the
Midlands.
Once again this fairly pointless type of thread reappears. America is
as America does. It's main fault is that it struggles to understand
the rest of the world. That is due to its size and geography and it is
not alone in that. America failed to realise that the performance of
the US team in the Last World Cup was its finest performance in ANY
team sport ever. World Series and Superbowls are minor local affairs
by comparison. The US rugby and cricket teams are on the up as well.
--
Julian Richards
"My son has asked for a pair of Nike trainers.
He's ten years old, he should make his own"
"I bought a CD of whale music. Imagine my
disappointment when I got home to discover
that it was actual a cover version by a tribute
band of dolphins"
Tron Furu
> "Tron Furu" <tron...@frisurf.no> wrote in message
news:<fzdcb.25117$os2.3...@news2.e.nsc.no>...
> > "E. C. Lee" <afro...@yahoo.com> skrev i melding
> > > > Noop. Both British inventions.
> >
> Just want to point out that the above was Renia's comment and not
> mine.
I know; and AFAIK she is a s.h.m. regular/MARK I Sensible, that's why I
wanted to comment on her comment, and in the context of your post. If I made
myself misunderstood by anyone out there - sorry!
>
> >
> > Culture is like any worthwhile cheese, full of interesting organic
> > compounds, yeast and microbes. From a few paces away, though, you only
catch
> > the mottled look and the smell. Everyone I know that has been to
America,
> > has had nothing but good things to say about especially the people, and
many
> > traits of the culture, minus any personal hobbyhorse biases. The strange
> > thing is how this translates into US Foreign politics (insert cheese
analogy
> > here).
It's truly foolish to assume that policy
> of America=Americans. America is a huge place, with a LOT of
> different people, talents and opinions.
I think that was my point, generally. I'm sorry if I didn't express myself
clearly.
Now I feel I have to tiptoe a little, because you seem uncomfortably
defensive.
When I say "some" or "one" or "mostly", it isn't aways covert criticism of
the USA.
The cheese analogy holds for any culture, I think. Think of people's image
of Germany, divided into the groups "having lived there" and "having not
lived there" (ask some old french people .....).
All the things snipped in your post = I agree.
It is the discrepancy between the niceness and the ... well, for the sake of
alliteration only: the nastiness, which i strange. In the worst of worlds,
it would mean simply the difference between being inside and outside the
USA, but I don't believe that.
> Likewise the business world, which has the means and opportunity to
> represent America, rarely does so for altruistic or patriotic reasons.
When it comes to skill, many of the world's most highly profiled business
leaders are American.
They may not represent all of America, but they do represent some of America
(and well).
The very best of us is not always the most
> marketable and therefore the most visable to others.
Alas, where is it ever?
> > USA has a lot of power, but power must first of all be informed;
sometimes
> > doubts may arise as to whether that obtains in all of US foreign
relations,
>
> ITA. At least in the first part. I'm not sure what you're trying to
> say in the second part. Is it that those who run the country aren't
> always informed? If that's twhat you're saying, ITA.
Yes.
There's
> definitely a case of tunnel vision. Also a problem in carrying ideas
> through to their possible conclusions. A lack of the chess game
> mentality. You just don't plan your moves, you have to contemplate
> the implications of the moves you make. There is a frightening lack
> of that going on right now.
Don't know too much myself, so I wont use those adjectives.
> > which is strange, because American _business_ certainly must have its
share
> > of analytical and far calculating thinkers.
> >
> Of course, even the saviest of businessmen might be idiot savants.
> Their brilliance in the boardroom may not translate beyond that.
As in most areas, true for the many. But obviously you don't run things like
major banks without an eye to the futeure, and knowledge about the world.
This is what bothers me about people who vote "one issue".
Democracy is the worst of all forms of government, except all the others
....
>
It wouldn't hurt to have a better
> informed populace, either.
"The parliament voted to dissolve the people and elect another" .... ?
(Brecht)
>
> > And it's unfortunate that
> > > the very things that do seem to culturally represent the US are
> > > usually the very worst we have to offer.
> >
> > How is that achieved?
> >
> I'd guess it's a money issue. The things you get are the things that
> are brought to you by business. Their purpose isn't to spread
> culture, it's to make money. They take the lowest common denominator
(:LCD)
> and mass market it to your public.
Enter Hegel: Internal contradictions.
USA - freedom - business.
Business goes outside with LCD.
This lowers foreign esteem for USA.
USA can't rein in business, because USA - freedom.
In a way, there should be foreign admiration for the freedom in USA that
denies government to use business to create foreign admiration. Twisted, eh?
McDonald's actually is a work of
> genius. A work of marketing and organizational genius. It's not
> great food. But what it does do, which is make money in an efficient
> manner, is uncanny.
Agreed. See above.
>
> As for television, some of it is incredible. Some is utter crap. I
> know that the British get both. I also know that we get some of their
> best and little of their worst. This has to do with how both systems
> are run. I"m not saying that American televison is better. What I am
> saying is that with careful choosing you can see that there are some
> amazing things produced in America.
I do some work as a subtitler ... I know. "Once you've seen 400 episodes of
Santa Barbara, you've seen them all," as the saying goes in the business.
But then there's "24", or "Band of Brothers" ....
>
> The US is a big place. There's a lot going on. It's easy to pick out
> the drek because there's a lot of drek.
I come from a small place. Drek enough.
Always was annoyed with my big brother who said his farts didn't smell bad,
but mine did.
> But when you do this, you're throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
Some big people use a lot of bathwater, though ... :-)
> As I said, I believe there is a lot that can be criticized, but if
> it's not directed specifically at those things that are wrong, such an
> opinion loses its credibility.
Clearly.
> > A flamier response would include: Reasonableness in the face of
criticism.
> > Where is this reasonableness when the US is not criticised? (i.e. "who
> > started it", "tu quoque" and other meaningfulishness). A call for
> > consistency, and projecting of this attitude not in privatim, but
> > collectively. Those, I believe, are the perceived discrepancies.
> >
> Not sure what you're saying here. Are you saying that we should be
> consistantly good about all things?
No. By discrepancy I mean first the difference between how nice Americans
are in America, and exactly how nice the USA is abroad, second ... a little
bit of .... hm .... the only word that comes to mind i "humility", but
nothing is more insulting than reccommending humility. Between guys I guess
one would say "Relax a little" .... pre-empt at least some of the criticism
(the reasonable, well meaning one, not any old psychosis).
Morality is always about oneself; so instead of saying "Don't throw the baby
out with the water", one should say "I'd better not throw the baby out with
the water". Being perceived as making that effort tends to promote one as an
honest guy.
> It's not easy for most Americans to travel or to see the world beyond
stereotypes.
Now THAT is a curious remark. Care to elaborate?
T
melektaus
> in article q%7cb.1384$RW4...@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net, dudalb at
> dalb...@earthlink.net wrote on 24/9/03 4:15 am:
>
> > Michael Cook has British disease:
> > Britian is no longer a major power and they hate the US because of that.
>
> Michael Cook has a disease that the greater majority of the world also has
> outside of the US:
>
> We don't like Bush and his bully-boy Neo-con friends.
This disease is also held by a huge section of the US population as well.
Unfortunately, it is misdirected as being anti-American rather than merely
not liking the leaders of the US and their policy.
>
> Like the rest of the world we also disapprove of the US and the UK invading,
> unprovoked, a sovereign nation, with evidence based on nothing more than
> lies lies and more damn lies.
Again, a large percentage of the US population feels the same way.
melektaus
Agreed.
> There's the spectacular cuisines of New Orleans. Likewise there are
> many other significant regional cuisines. New England, Southwestern,
> Southern, etc. It's not all McDonald's.
Agreed. Unfortunately, it took cuisine in America a long time to recover
from the damage to a real food culture that occurred in the first half
of the 20th c. , first with Prohibition causing many restaurants to
close, then the Great Depression and WWII attitudes that caring about
the quality of food was "unpatriotic" and snobbish, followed by the rise
of fast food and the suburban utopia of the postwar era. Yet - for the
most part, although not in all sections of the country equally - it has
recovered and we're doing a pretty damn good job of it.
>
> There are the novels of Faulkner, Hemingway, and Fitzgerald. Edith
> Wharton. Moby Dick, Catcher in the Rye. The Beat movement.
> Tennessee Williams, Arthur Miller.
And MANY others, from the 19th c. to the present day.
And though the above poster may
> not like Abstract Expressionism, it was a significant movement that
> introduced new elements to consider on how one does and how one looks
> at art. In painting there were also the regionalists, like Edward
> Hopper. The great artists of the twenties like O'Keefe, Davies,
> Hartley and Marin.
Who were Hartley and Marin? I feel somewhat stupid by asking...
If you're talking about 20s artists I'd add George Bellows, and for the
30s Marsh and Shawn.
And there have been many world class photographers
> as well. Stiechen, Stiegliez, Weston, Adams, Arbus, Avedon.
> Architects like Sullivan and Frank Lloyd Wright. Avante garde
> performance artists like Laurie Andersen and Bill Viola. The Kitchen.
> Not to mention all the greatness that can be found in Native American
> cultures.
Agreed.
>
> I've left out a great deal. A great, great deal. Of people and of
> movements. High culture, pop culture. Fine arts, applied arts,
> graphic arts, crafts. This is just a small fraction of figures of
> cultural significance that came out of America.
True - I might also add that the influence flows both ways, and has
flowed both ways since the 19th c. when France appreciated Edgar Allan
Poe before the US considered him anything more than an alcoholic literary
critic, and when Britain appreciated Melville before the US considered
him anything more than a curiosity. Albert Camus based "The Stranger" on
James M. Cain and Horace McCoy. American film noir influenced French
New Wave which has in turn influenced American filmmakers ever since.
Abstract Expressionism became Informalism in Europe. Etc. etc. etc.
The bottom line is: there are very few "pure" cultures, especially in the
current era. Even many things we think of in the past as being part of a
"pure" national culture were taken from elsewhere. You'd have to go back
to the 17th century to find a Western culture devoid of outside influences,
at least.
> I'm sorry, there's a lot of trash in America, and right now there's a
> lot one CAN trash, criticize and complain about,
Agreed. But Europe comes up with trash as well, like Pop Idol and the
reality shows, plus the output on Silvio Berlusconi's networks. French
and Japanese pop music have been plagued by overexposed bubblegum
Lolita popstars longer than the US has. The only difference is that
Europe's trash rarely makes it big in the US unless copied and Americanized,
while America's trash is all over. You can't bash what you don't see.
but anyone who
> blanketly bashes the place is ignorant and losing out on that which is
> good. I'm hardly saying we are the best culture, or one that everyone
> should emulate. That would be ridiculous. And it's unfortunate that
> the very things that do seem to culturally represent the US are
> usually the very worst we have to offer. But we DO have a lot tthat
> is worthwhile.
>
> This shouldn't be a pissing contest over which country is best.
> That's nonsense! We should appreciate whatever greatness we can get
> from whatever place it comes from, instead of this moronic hooray for
> our team, your team sucks!
>
> JMHO,
> Eve
At last - some common sense! What a rarity on Uselessnet!
captain!
lol, if you were about to enter into a head on collision with a 320 pound
monster you would be wearing pads too. either that or you would have a
career spanning one game.
anyhow, the arguement was that no one watches american sports. i just proved
otherwise.
captain!
"dudalb" <dalb...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:q%7cb.1384$RW4...@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> Michael Cook has British disease:
> Britian is no longer a major power and they hate the US because of that.
>
>
yeah, they hate you so much that they were the only country to go into iraq
with you.
captain!
> in article e363658fd8746558...@news.teranews.com, BernardZ at
> Berna...@REMOVEhotmail.com to reply take out REMOVE wrote on 24/9/03
> 12:17 pm:
>
> > boxing, golf, tennis, horse racing, sailing, motor car
> > racing, chess and of course the Olympic games.
in regards to golf, for the first time ever europe presently holds both the
rider cup and the solheim (lady's) cup. generally speaking though the usa
does have the best golfers overall.
as for cars, nascar is big in the usa, but formula 1, the big money racing,
is huge in europe.
> >
> > In all the above the US does very well.
>
> But who invented those games ?
>
> Boxing - UK
lol, that's HIGHLY debatable.
> Golf - UK
some think that the dutch might have actually invented it. but of course
st.andrews will always be considered the home of golf. the scottish
definately made it the game it is today.
> Horse racing - Nor sure on that, possibly the Arabs.
> Sailing - Prehistoric Man.
> Motor Car Racing - UK
> Chess - Medieval ?
> Olympic Games - Greece.
>
> Most US invented games are insignificant outside of the US, and in the
> greater majority of countries are classed as minor sports.
the poster never claimed that the usa invented any of the games that they
are good at.
>
> MWC
>
captain!
"Julian Richards" <julian-...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:tnk3nvo8mrddmved2...@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 24 Sep 2003 16:16:08 +0200, "C.C. Baxter"
> <NOccbaxt...@terra.es> wrote:
>
> >Motor car racing? Which motor car racing? Formula 1?
>
> Most of the Indy cars are built in the UK, in small workshops in the
> Midlands.
>
> Once again this fairly pointless type of thread reappears. America is
> as America does. It's main fault is that it struggles to understand
> the rest of the world. That is due to its size and geography and it is
> not alone in that. America failed to realise that the performance of
> the US team in the Last World Cup was its finest performance in ANY
> team sport ever. World Series and Superbowls are minor local affairs
> by comparison. The US rugby and cricket teams are on the up as well.
if you want to make an american laugh, ask them which is better: rugby or
football.
>
>
>
> --
>
> Julian Richards
>
> "My son has asked for a pair of Nike trainers.
> He's ten years old, he should make his own"
lol. not bad.
captain!
"JGB" <jga...@netzero.com> wrote in message
news:2ce735b1.03092...@posting.google.com...
> u3586...@spawnkill.ip-mobilphone.net (Armageddon Watch) wrote in
message
news:<l.106426049...@adsl-63-207-175-147.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net>...
> > Will America Be Reinterpreted One Day?
> >
>
> If and when America falls from power, it will probably be the
> beginning
> of a NEw Dark Ages,
more like the nuclear winter.
E. C. Lee
> "E. C. Lee" <afro...@yahoo.com> skrev i melding
> news:f0cfed5b.03092...@posting.google.com...
> > "Tron Furu" <tron...@frisurf.no> wrote in message
> news:<fzdcb.25117$os2.3...@news2.e.nsc.no>...
> > > "E. C. Lee" <afro...@yahoo.com> skrev i melding
>
> It's truly foolish to assume that policy
> > of America=Americans. America is a huge place, with a LOT of
> > different people, talents and opinions.
>
> I think that was my point, generally. I'm sorry if I didn't express myself
> clearly.
Oh, I knew that, but I did want it clear to the rest of the world,
because Renia's comments were quite different from the rest of my
post.
> Now I feel I have to tiptoe a little, because you seem uncomfortably
> defensive.
LOL! I'm sorry. I don't mean to be. I guess I'm generally annoyed
for two reasons, and neither of them are directed at you (as you do
seem to be agreeing with me! ;-)) I don't like bashing. In general.
Of anyone. Criticism is one thing, but bashing is another. I've seen
a lot of American bashing lately and I don't see anyone coming up with
a suitable response. Add to the fact that I AM an American, I feel
some sort of responsibility to have say something. Which leads me to
my second annoyance. I really don't like getting involved in off
topic things, particularly political discussions. I do think this is
the place for Medieval discussion (though I admit it's often
incredibly interesting and enticing to veer off course) and though I
can't prevent anyone else from doing so, I try to refrain as much as I
can. But it was one of those moments where I just couldn't hold back!
The study of culture is one of my "things".
<snip things that we agree about anyway!>
> > >
> > Of course, even the saviest of businessmen might be idiot savants.
> > Their brilliance in the boardroom may not translate beyond that.
>
> As in most areas, true for the many. But obviously you don't run things like
> major banks without an eye to the futeure, and knowledge about the world.
>
True, but knowledge in one area doesn't translate into knowledge of
another. Even in the world of business, you might know how to run an
automobile empire, but not know a thing about the motion picture
industry. It doesn't always translate. Likewise, you might understand
money, but ultimately not understand people.
<Snipped more agreement>
> >
> > As for television, some of it is incredible. Some is utter crap. I
> > know that the British get both. I also know that we get some of their
> > best and little of their worst. This has to do with how both systems
> > are run. I"m not saying that American televison is better. What I am
> > saying is that with careful choosing you can see that there are some
> > amazing things produced in America.
>
> I do some work as a subtitler ... I know. "Once you've seen 400 episodes of
> Santa Barbara, you've seen them all," as the saying goes in the business.
> But then there's "24", or "Band of Brothers" ....
>
I've heard "24" is good, but never got a chance to watch it. Not
familiar with "Band of Brothers". Afraid I've gotton out of touch
lately. OTH, I think "The Sopranos" is brilliant, as was "Buffy the
Vampire Slayer".
<more snips>
> > Not sure what you're saying here. Are you saying that we should be
> > consistantly good about all things?
>
> No. By discrepancy I mean first the difference between how nice Americans
> are in America, and exactly how nice the USA is abroad,
Well, not all Americans ARE nice here or abroad. Some are, some
aren't. When they travel to other countries, some are often
insecure, confused, and out of touch. And those are the ones you
notice. When I was in London I don't think most people thought of me
as "an American" unless I opened my mouth (then the jig was up). OTH,
I saw a bunch of American college kids acting like total morons in the
tube. They're the ones who will stick out in people's minds. I also
noticed obnoxious Germans, English, Italians, you name it. People
often don't know how to adapt outside their own country to the proper
rules of behavior. They might also like the freedom of being outside
the contraints of their own culture and feel they have a right to
whoop it up. And some people are just assholes and would be wherever
they went. Look at usenet. I don't think any one country has a
monopoly on morons (I'm not arguing here, so don't panic--I'm sure you
agree with me on this! ;-))
second ... a little
> bit of .... hm .... the only word that comes to mind i "humility", but
> nothing is more insulting than reccommending humility. Between guys I guess
> one would say "Relax a little" .... pre-empt at least some of the criticism
> (the reasonable, well meaning one, not any old psychosis).
> Morality is always about oneself; so instead of saying "Don't throw the baby
> out with the water", one should say "I'd better not throw the baby out with
> the water". Being perceived as making that effort tends to promote one as an
> honest guy.
>
I agree about humility and I think it's a lesson for everyone. It's
tricky, the balance between pride and humility. I'd hardly blast out
all the achievements of American culture, except when challenged by
someone claiming that there were none. OTH, I'd never say that these
are the GREATEST achievements accomplished in the world. Or that the
accomplishments of other places aren't also great.
>
> > It's not easy for most Americans to travel or to see the world beyond
> stereotypes.
>
> Now THAT is a curious remark. Care to elaborate?
>
Sure. Travel outside the country very expensive for us. I just got
back from three weeks in Europe and the cost nearly ruined me. The
only reason I could go at all was due to a small inheritance. And I
didn't live high on the hog while traveling. The biggest killer was
airfare, but everything was expensive. This was mostly due to the
exchange rate. Yeah, I was there at peak season, I know, but that was
the only time I could come. And this is the case for a lot of people.
Contrary to popular belief, all Americans are not rich. If I could
I'd be traveling constantly, but I can't. At least not outside the
US. It costs way too much. And even if I had the money, vacation
time can be hard to come by.
There are also some Americans who are afraid to travel. Not just
physical fear (though many have that), but the fear of things that are
different. I've always lived in places with people from all over. I
grew up in a major city. Of course, it's not the same as going to
different places in the world, but I was open to it. However, there
are many people who live in relativiely isolated communities. Small
towns, or neighborhoods of like minded individuals who never leave the
security of their own little worlds. They don't have all that much
exposure and end up with xenophobia. And they end up relying on false
images of others. Even when these people do travel, they often do it
in isolated packs so they get as little exposure to the dangers of the
unknown as possible. I doubt this is exclusively an American problem.
Actually, I was at a talk given by travel writer, Rick Steves.
Someone asked him if this was a bad time to travel. And even though
it was in his best interest to encourage people travel, I think his
response was both good and sincere. He said that not only was it good
to travel now, it was critical, because we need to know what the rest
of the world is doing and thinking. And we need the rest of the world
to know what we are really like as well.
Hope that answers the question! ;-)
Eve
Bryn Fraser
<norm...@charter.net> writes
In actual fact that "Young Country" does not really wash... The US and
the UK has developed very much along the same lines for the past 500
years...
Bryn Fraser
<dalb...@earthlink.net> writes
>Michael Cook has British disease:
>Britian is no longer a major power and they hate the US because of that.
Want to arm wrestle?
Simon
No they weren't! Australia was there too!
E. C. Lee
> > "E. C. Lee" <afro...@yahoo.com> skrev i melding
> > news:f0cfed5b.03092...@posting.google.com...
> > > "Tron Furu" <tron...@frisurf.no> wrote in message
> news:<fzdcb.25117$os2.3...@news2.e.nsc.no>...
> > > > "E. C. Lee" <afro...@yahoo.com> skrev i melding
> <snip>
> >
> >
> > are in America, and exactly how nice the USA is abroad,
>
I just realized that I answered this section of your comments
incorrectly. I think.
Did I misinterpret what you wrote? Were you talking about individual
Americans? Individually, people are people, some are nice, some
aren't.
If by saying "Americans", if you mean the current leaders, well IMHO,
they aren't that nice to Americans either. We're losing our rights,
our privacy, our jobs, our voice, our economy sucks and we are
constantly hustled by the powers that be. JMHO.
How nice is the USA abroad? We're not about to win Ms. Congeniality.
I'm appalled by the lack of concern there is for the rest of the
world by those in power. But as I said, this regime is running
roughshod over its own people just as it's running over everyone else.
It is remarkably consistent.
None of this has anything to do with my original comments, however.
There are a lot of wonderful things in America, and about America.
Unfortunately there are also a LOT of things wrong with it right now.
JMHO,
Eve
Michael W Cook
killspam...@deadspammers.net wrote on 24/9/03 10:42 pm:
Err, have you ever seen the size of a Rugby Forward ?
American Football probably reached it's height in the UK in the mid-80's,
when even I was known to watch the occasional game. Now it's relegated to
Channel Five after midnight and the audience is probably tens of thousands
as opposed to the millions it was at it's peak.
Cheers
MWC
Michael W Cook
Castles Abbeys and Medieval Buildings
http://www.castles-abbeys.co.uk
--
Tron Furu
"E. C. Lee" <afro...@yahoo.com> skrev i melding
news:f0cfed5b.03092...@posting.google.com...
> "Tron Furu" <tron...@frisurf.no> wrote in message
news:<JVkcb.32472$Hb.4...@news4.e.nsc.no>...
> > "E. C. Lee" <afro...@yahoo.com> skrev i melding
> > news:f0cfed5b.03092...@posting.google.com...
> > > "Tron Furu" <tron...@frisurf.no> wrote in message
> > news:<fzdcb.25117$os2.3...@news2.e.nsc.no>...
> > > > "E. C. Lee" <afro...@yahoo.com> skrev i melding
snip
>
> the place for Medieval discussion
The thing to do is to find parallells in history, then. (My favourite is
waiting for multinationals to go to war - we could have the Thirty Years War
all over again. Or perhaps if the "privatized war"-industry develops far
enough, we can have some neo-renaissance condottieri maneuvering around each
other.
Chlodowech's approach to alliance buidling springs to mind, as does the
christening effort of Karl der Grosse, killing saxons right and left; I
believe the phrase "dragging someone kicking and screaming into the Xth
century" must come from here. Maybe they had a fearsome dictator, the region
needed the stabilizing influence of a democchristianized government, or had
Ragnarok capabilities (Gods of Mass Destruction).
Horly Roman Empire of German Nation vs. the Vatican is more a Cold War game.
Any more medieval empires stricking back coming to mind?
> True, but knowledge in one area doesn't translate into knowledge of
> another. Even in the world of business, you might know how to run an
> automobile empire, but not know a thing about the motion picture
> industry. It doesn't always translate. Likewise, you might understand
> money, but ultimately not understand people.
True. I think my argument rests on distinguishing between form and content
of knowledge. The content may not be applicable, but the form - simple acts
like getting information, looking ahead, looking abroad (in its general
sense, takeing a broad view of all other players), identifying forces,
factors, key events - can be applicable if the person ha some talent in
abstract thinking. The "right" questions are often the same, and just aksing
them is a good start.
(This is even a school of managemnt - George Kenning (?) - that says that
any manager can manage anything, because management is a discipline in and
of itself, unrelated to the actual business. This may be true or not,
successful or not, but that, I think, is something of my point.
Politicians - anywhere - don't seem to be quite up there. They may have
other relevant qualities, of course.)
Not
> familiar with "Band of Brothers". Afraid I've gotton out of touch
> lately.
Spielberg/Hanks on "Echo Company"/WWII.
>> > > It's not easy for most Americans to travel or to see the world
beyond
> > stereotypes.
> >
> > Now THAT is a curious remark. Care to elaborate?
> >
> Sure. Travel outside the country very expensive for us.
I read your statement as a comparative one. On the list of world nations
with citizens who have travel somewhat within their reach, I think USA would
not figure at the bottom.
> Contrary to popular belief, all Americans are not rich.
Depends. Almost all americans - everybody in the West, actually - is a
shining prince compared to e.g. a singhalese coconut farmer. OTOH, in an
intra-western comparison, USA has a high percentage of poor and lower lower
middle class people, i.e. a very uneven distribution of wealth.
> There are also some Americans who are afraid to travel. Not just
> physical fear (though many have that), but the fear of things that are
> different.
That is a universal trait, I think. However, there is a touch of Life's
Irony about this being so in the "Melting Pot".
> I doubt this is exclusively an American problem.
Definitely not.
Regards,
Tron
Tron Furu
"E. C. Lee" <afro...@yahoo.com> skrev i melding
news:f0cfed5b.03092...@posting.google.com...
> afro...@yahoo.com (E. C. Lee) wrote in message
news:<f0cfed5b.03092...@posting.google.com>...
> > "Tron Furu" <tron...@frisurf.no> wrote in message
news:<JVkcb.32472$Hb.4...@news4.e.nsc.no>...
> > > "E. C. Lee" <afro...@yahoo.com> skrev i melding
> > > news:f0cfed5b.03092...@posting.google.com...
> > > > "Tron Furu" <tron...@frisurf.no> wrote in message
> > news:<fzdcb.25117$os2.3...@news2.e.nsc.no>...
> > > > > "E. C. Lee" <afro...@yahoo.com> skrev i melding
> > <snip>
> > >
> > >
> > > No. By discrepancy I mean first the difference between how nice
Americans
> > > are in America, and exactly how nice the USA is abroad,
> >
>
> I just realized that I answered this section of your comments
> incorrectly. I think.
> Did I misinterpret what you wrote? Were you talking about individual
> Americans? Individually, people are people, some are nice, some
> aren't.
As I wrote earlier, everybody I know who has been to the US, describes the
people as very friendly and kind.
I believe most people everywhere are decent folks.
>
> If by saying "Americans", if you mean the current leaders, well IMHO,
> they aren't that nice to Americans either. We're losing our rights,
> our privacy, our jobs, our voice, our economy sucks and we are
> constantly hustled by the powers that be. JMHO.
That's "youre thang". Won't say a word.
> How nice is the USA abroad? We're not about to win Ms. Congeniality.
> I'm appalled by the lack of concern there is for the rest of the
> world by those in power. But as I said, this regime is running
> roughshod over its own people just as it's running over everyone else.
> It is remarkably consistent.
So let's make it a three element thing.
1. USA, full of generally decent folks.
2. The powers that be.
3. The image USA projects to the rest of the world by its politics.
(PoliSci complications would extend the model with the business level, and
thee business practices you described.)
The strange and wondrous thing is how one arrives at level three, why level
one doesn't express itself at the top.
Regards,
Tron
The American
>
> > by comparison. The US rugby and cricket teams are on the up as well.
>
> if you want to make an american laugh, ask them which is better: rugby or
> football.
Rugby.
Funny though, I didn't laugh.
T.A.
captain!
"The American" <a_real_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:vn60f98...@corp.supernews.com...
you are in the vast minority. rugby stinks. (literally)
E. C. Lee
> "E. C. Lee" <afro...@yahoo.com> skrev i melding
> news:f0cfed5b.03092...@posting.google.com...
> > afro...@yahoo.com (E. C. Lee) wrote in message
> news:<f0cfed5b.03092...@posting.google.com>...
> > > "Tron Furu" <tron...@frisurf.no> wrote in message
> news:<JVkcb.32472$Hb.4...@news4.e.nsc.no>...
> > > > "E. C. Lee" <afro...@yahoo.com> skrev i melding
> > > > news:f0cfed5b.03092...@posting.google.com...
> > > > > "Tron Furu" <tron...@frisurf.no> wrote in message
> news:<fzdcb.25117$os2.3...@news2.e.nsc.no>...
> > > > > > "E. C. Lee" <afro...@yahoo.com> skrev i melding
> <snip>
>
> 1. USA, full of generally decent folks.
> 2. The powers that be.
> 3. The image USA projects to the rest of the world by its politics.
>
> (PoliSci complications would extend the model with the business level, and
> thee business practices you described.)
>
> The strange and wondrous thing is how one arrives at level three, why level
> one doesn't express itself at the top.
>
this about any culture that one is not familiar with, including those
of the past. How do people perceive "others"? There's personal
contact, something we can do in the present, but certainly not in the
past. However, there's a limitation in how many people do get to have
personal contact with other cultures, which people are in the position
to make contact, and who are the people available for them to have
contact with. There are some who do, for business, or pleasure or
just as an everyday part of their lives. Others who will never have an
opportunity. If you live in small countries and/or one that borders
other countries, it's likely that you'll have a familiarity, even if
that familiarity breeds contempt. If you are smack dab in the middle
if East Kishnev with no chance of getting out and little chance of
anyone else getting in, you're going to have to depend on other.s
OK. Lacking personal contact, you have to rely on some sort of
filter. Usually this is through word of mouth, art or media. This is
how we learn about history, this is how we learn about others when we
have no other choice. If the source comes from one's enemies, the
information will be suspect. But do people ever put themselves in a
bad light? Sometimes. We might be critiquing our own foibles and
others, who don't understand this, might take things at face value.
Or there might be "codes" within the message that outsiders aren't
familiar with and misinterpret. It might include exaggeration, the
use of "types", in-jokes, fantasy figures, etc. Or there might be in
group fighting so that what is thought of as an accurate depiction
coming from within a society is actually propaganda from one segment
of that society against another.
The most simplistic way of looking at people, IMHO is by personify
specific elements such as a government, clergy or merchants as
representing those people within a country. It's also very, very
easy to do. It's visable when the people are not.
It's also a case where the ones who speak loudest will be the ones who
are heard. One sees McDonald's, therefore all American food must be
medicocre. A particularly obnoxious poster is from one country,
therefore everyone from that country must be an obnoxious ill informed
boor. A large percentage of the Medieval art that has survived is
religious in nature, therefore all Medieval art was religious (OK, I
worked something OT in! ;-))
I guess what it boils down to is that genuine knowledge about anything
is layered, complicated, and filled with pitfalls. And just as we are
(or should be) careful in how we interpret our information when
dealing with history, we should do the same when dealing with each
other.
Hope that work for you! ;-)
Eve
E. C. Lee
discussing Chinese ceramics of the 14th century! ;-)
> > True, but knowledge in one area doesn't translate into knowledge of
> > another. Even in the world of business, you might know how to run an
> > automobile empire, but not know a thing about the motion picture
> > industry. It doesn't always translate. Likewise, you might understand
> > money, but ultimately not understand people.
> True. I think my argument rests on distinguishing between form and content
> of knowledge. The content may not be applicable, but the form - simple acts
> like getting information, looking ahead, looking abroad (in its general
> sense, takeing a broad view of all other players), identifying forces,
> factors, key events - can be applicable if the person ha some talent in
> abstract thinking. The "right" questions are often the same, and just aksing
> them is a good start.
> (This is even a school of managemnt - George Kenning (?) - that says that
> any manager can manage anything, because management is a discipline in and
> of itself, unrelated to the actual business. This may be true or not,
> successful or not, but that, I think, is something of my point.
> Politicians - anywhere - don't seem to be quite up there. They may have
> other relevant qualities, of course.)
>
Well, I think this is true for SOME people. If one can take one thing
and translate it to something else. I can discuss painting or film or
television using similar concepts--and I know when they can be used
and when they must be altered. I can maybe take this further and
apply the same templates to music or theatre or literature. Maybe
taking it even further and applying it to subject matter that's even
more removed. I'm using a method of analysis. However, others are
specialists and can't really going beyond their comfort areas. They
"click" with something as long all the pieces are in place and they
don't move very far. Someone seeing their success might wrongly
assume their success was due to understanding the principals.
As for politicians, all they really need is the ability to raise
money, to connect with the right people in powerful positions, and the
ability to manipulate public relations. If they have genuine
leadership abilities, intelligence, understanding of economics, a
grasp of foreign policies, a mind for strategy, etc. it's just a
happy coincidence. IMHO, such things are rarely what gets them
elected (not too cynical, am I? ;-))
> >> > > It's not easy for most Americans to travel or to see the world
> beyond
> > > stereotypes.
> > >
> > > Now THAT is a curious remark. Care to elaborate?
> > >
> > Sure. Travel outside the country very expensive for us.
>
> I read your statement as a comparative one. On the list of world nations
> with citizens who have travel somewhat within their reach, I think USA would
> not figure at the bottom.
>
I"m not saying otherwise. Many Americans can travel to foreign
countries, but not all Americans are able to. A *great* many are
unable too. Or if they do, they are unable to do it often. It's a
big deal to travel "across the pond" for most of us. I envy the short
distances that Europeans have to visit each other.
But I'm not saying that other nationalities aren't limited in where
and how often they can travel. If you recall, the point was that
many Americans are limited in their understanding of other countries
because of a lack of personal familiarity. The same can be said of
those who have never been to other places, including America. I'm
always amazed at the misconceptions that outsiders hold. It's a
communications problem.
> > Contrary to popular belief, all Americans are not rich.
>
> Depends. Almost all americans - everybody in the West, actually - is a
> shining prince compared to e.g. a singhalese coconut farmer.
Of course. But I'm talking beyond subsistance here. Most people in
the US are very lucky. Most of us (though not all) have places to
live, enough to eat and medical care (although this can be very sticky
for the elderly and anyone without proper health insurance). But I
think the impression one gets from the media is that we all have huge
homes, several cars, etc. etc. etc. There are people who are like
that. But this is not ALL America. We have our fat cats, but we have
alley cats as well.
OTOH, in an
> intra-western comparison, USA has a high percentage of poor and lower lower
> middle class people, i.e. a very uneven distribution of wealth.
>
There are many who are in debt, have difficulty obtaining decent
educations, and need to worry about their personal safety. Job
security is also a major issue right now. Since health care is
usually tied into one's job benefits, to be unemployed can be a life
and death issue.
> > There are also some Americans who are afraid to travel. Not just
> > physical fear (though many have that), but the fear of things that are
> > different.
>
> That is a universal trait, I think. However, there is a touch of Life's
> Irony about this being so in the "Melting Pot".
>
Well, a real melting pot would make everything taste the same. I'd
rather have a rich stew where you could savor all the different
flavors! ;-)
JMHO,
Eve
Peter Bruells
Tron Furu
"Peter Bruells" <p...@ecce-terram.de> skrev i melding
news:m2u16z9...@rogue.ecce-terram.de...
T
theresa
The Czechs?
captain!
russia this year. score another point for american sports.
BTW, the british are really cracking me up with the ways that you are
torturing that guy hanging in the plexiglass box. very funny :)
now there's a sport: catapulting paint balls and shooting fireworks at a guy
in a box.
captain!
the poles entered the war late and so did the danish (july). so what are you
guys talking about?
Fabian
> > > > yeah, they hate you so much that they were the only country to
go into
> > iraq
> > > > with you.
> > >
> > > Well, apart from the Poles, that is.
> > >
> > And the Danish.
> >
>
> the poles entered the war late and so did the danish (july). so what
are you
> guys talking about?
These a couple of guys from some south pacific nation too. It is a
genuine international coalition there!
--
--
Fabian
Humans have to stop treating each other like they treat us ants. Think
about it. If we build, say, a pair of very tall structures, like two
anthills side-by-side, some stupid human swoops in out of nowhere and
knocks them down. Or humans will drop food on the ground near us. we
think it's for us, but those same humans will also try to kill us! I
have no sense of irony, I'm just an ant. But if I did, I'm sure I'd
notice that.
Soren Larsen
"captain!" <killspam...@deadspammers.net> skrev i en meddelelse
news:s_0db.15577$O85.11361@pd7tw1no...
Actually the Danish force was in place the first week of june and had
its first
"incident" june 7. and the first and so far only casualty august 17.
So we were late but not that late.
Of course we shouldnt have come at all.
Soren Larsen
Julian Richards
Mr Blaine is American. Perhaps that is what makes watching him suffer
so popular.
--
Julian Richards
"My son has asked for a pair of Nike trainers.
He's ten years old, he should make his own"
"I bought a CD of whale music. Imagine my
h...@ha.ha
> <killspam...@deadspammers.net> wrote:
>
> >the baseball world series will be televised for the first time ever in
> >russia this year. score another point for american sports.
> >
> >BTW, the british are really cracking me up with the ways that you are
> >torturing that guy hanging in the plexiglass box. very funny :)
> >now there's a sport: catapulting paint balls and shooting fireworks at a guy
> >in a box
>
> Mr Blaine is American. Perhaps that is what makes watching him suffer
> so popular.
>
Michael W Cook
julian-...@ntlworld.com wrote on 27/9/03 5:49 pm:
> On Fri, 26 Sep 2003 20:03:16 GMT, "captain!"
> <killspam...@deadspammers.net> wrote:
>
>> the baseball world series will be televised for the first time ever in
>> russia this year. score another point for american sports.
>>
>> BTW, the british are really cracking me up with the ways that you are
>> torturing that guy hanging in the plexiglass box. very funny :)
>> now there's a sport: catapulting paint balls and shooting fireworks at a guy
>> in a box
>
> Mr Blaine is American. Perhaps that is what makes watching him suffer
> so popular.
It started with abuse, then eggs.
Paintballs hit for the first time last night.
A couple of days later a guy had a remote chopper and dangled a Hamburger in
front of the box, then the the next day someone set up a barby underneath
knocking up sausages and bacon.
What is the point ?
Why London ?
Most people just think it's a pointless exercise.
His girlfriend is said to be appalled at what has been going on.
Perhaps they should have just stayed at home.
MWC
William Black
"Michael W Cook" <mwc...@btconnect.com> wrote in message
news:BB9B94ED.1029A%mwc...@btconnect.com...
> in article k0o9nv016qmb9eqrn...@4ax.com, Julian Richards at
> julian-...@ntlworld.com wrote on 27/9/03 5:49 pm:
> >> BTW, the british are really cracking me up with the ways that you are
> >> torturing that guy hanging in the plexiglass box. very funny :)
> >> now there's a sport: catapulting paint balls and shooting fireworks at
a guy
> >> in a box
> >
> > Mr Blaine is American. Perhaps that is what makes watching him suffer
> > so popular.
>
> It started with abuse, then eggs.
>
> Paintballs hit for the first time last night.
>
> A couple of days later a guy had a remote chopper and dangled a Hamburger
in
> front of the box, then the the next day someone set up a barby underneath
> knocking up sausages and bacon.
>
> What is the point ?
>
> Why London ?
>
> Most people just think it's a pointless exercise.
> His girlfriend is said to be appalled at what has been going on.
> Perhaps they should have just stayed at home.
I love the idea of people hitting golf balls at his box.
The reason people are doing this to him is because he's just doing it for
the money.
If he was doing it for a good (or even reasonable) cause people would
tolerate him, but cheap and nasty stunts for cold hard cash don't actually
excite anyone here.
--
William Black
------------------
On time, on budget, or works;
Pick any two from three
Julian Richards
>> No they weren't! Australia was there too!
>
>
>Don't listen to their excuses - they were just there to get some more sand.
As soon as they found out that the beach stretches hundreds of miles
inland, the Aussies were packing their bags to go.
captain!
"Julian Richards" <julian-...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:k0o9nv016qmb9eqrn...@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 26 Sep 2003 20:03:16 GMT, "captain!"
> <killspam...@deadspammers.net> wrote:
>
> >the baseball world series will be televised for the first time ever in
> >russia this year. score another point for american sports.
> >
> >BTW, the british are really cracking me up with the ways that you are
> >torturing that guy hanging in the plexiglass box. very funny :)
> >now there's a sport: catapulting paint balls and shooting fireworks at a
guy
> >in a box
>
> Mr Blaine is American. Perhaps that is what makes watching him suffer
> so popular.
>
oooooooooohhhhhhhh..... :)
captain!
when will the flinging of feces begin?
> MWC
>
William Black
>
> when will the flinging of feces begin?
I doubt if it will.
These days the London Mob is rather expensively (if badly) dressed.
captain!
"Bob Crowley" <bobcr...@optusnet.com.au> wrote in message
news:adff117.03092...@posting.google.com...news:<TgIcb.10237$O85.2616@pd7tw1no>...
> without the beat em up of Rugby, or the self protective baggage of
> Gridiron. Personally I don't follow any of them, as I am not a fan of
> watching sports, although I've played a few in my time.
auzzie rules is better than rugby.
>
> Forget your soccer. Play Aerial Ping Pong. And the scores are a lot
> higher too.
>
> Bob Crowley.
Joseph Hertzlinger
<u3586...@spawnkill.ip-mobilphone.net> wrote:
> Will America Be Reinterpreted One Day?
>
> by Jesse Ogden
>
>
>
> Often when I discuss with friends and acquaintances – the ones
> who haven't deluded themselves into thinking that this current
> president is less dangerous and corrupt than just about any other
> president – about the state of the country, I will strike upon
> the point that America is an empire full of people who don't pay
> very much attention to history or what has happened to every empire
> in existence. There have been many, many empires throughout history,
> and while Americans are able to name a few, who can honestly say
> that they have ever heard of the Elamite Empire, the Khwarezm-shah
> Empire, the Mauryan Empire, the Central African Empire, or the
> myriad of other cultures and nations that sought domination, only to
> find that they have faded into the annals of history, only to be
> known by the very serious scholars.
The two empires that most closely resemble the US are the British and
Roman Empires.
> The problem with empires being notable and remembered throughout
> history is that they rarely offer much, besides the standard death
> and destruction. Plus, most empires don't last long enough to really
> do anything notable. The lifespan of the average empire is a few
> hundred years, and much of that time is being spent on expanding the
> hegemony of that empire through any means necessary. This all leaves
> us with one question, when the empire of the United States falls,
> and it will at some point, what will America be noted for in the
> history books?
Universal states usually last 400 years. Typical examples include the
Han, Roman, and Ottoman Empires.
The distinguishing feature of a universal state is that any opposition
inside the civilization is too exhausted to resist.
> The final focus will be on what led up to the American Empire's
> fall. The escapades of Reagan, Clinton, both Bushes, and whoever
> the successors may be, will be fully documented, as it will mark the
> beginning of the end. The historians will recount America's strategy
> to nation-build country after country with brute force, while
> remaining constantly stuck in binding alliances, a strategy that
> would blow up in their faces eventually and mark the end of the
> American Empire.
The Joachite Rebellion of 2520, of course
<http://pages.prodigy.net/aesir/sfol/sf23.htm>.
> Jesse Ogden is a high school student in Michigan.
Come back after you've learned something.
melektaus
> > > > afro...@yahoo.com (E. C. Lee) wrote in message news:<f0cfed5b.03092...@posting.google.com>...
> > >
> <snip more stuff on how America intentionally developed bad food at
> one time>
>
> > > Actually, there's an excellent book on this called "Perfection Salad".
> > > A great deal of this had to do with reform movements and misguided
> > > efforts at improving health (like drastically overcooking vegtables in
> > > an effort to make them more digestable!) Some of it also had to do
> > > with making meals easier to cook and more uniform in an effort to
> > > insure perfect results every time, both noble goals which were
> > > ultimately destructive.
> >
> > And also the attempts at eradicating "ethnic" influences from new
> > immigrant groups, as ridiculous as that may seem today.
> >
> I think this was also part of making things "more modern" and
> "hygenic". In "Perfection Salad", they talked about how Italian
> immigrants would bring their own food when forced to eat in the
> hospitals and how this alarmed reformers. The reformers thought that
> these other cultures were not as "advanced" and didn't really
> understand health and cleanliness! An example of deciding that the
> "other" is more primitive and giving them a condencending hand to
> improve their lot!
Which is ridiculous, if one looks at the culinary tradition in Italy -
>
> > > I just saw a television show on the American restaurant "Trio". I
> > > can't even begin to describe the unusual approach to cuisine that the
> > > chef takes. Avant garde is probably the best word for it. It's a
> > > cerebral experience, where he plays with your mind and your sense in
> > > ways that really hadn't been done before. Some of the things he does
> > > goes beyond what people would normally think of as food. I think he
> > > used to work at California's "The French Laundry" which is also known
> > > for it's innovative approach to dining. I've lunched at Trio, and
> > > it's more like experiencing a symphony than chowing down.
> >
> > Being a Californian I know very well what you mean, although the
> > culinary renaissance of the coastal regions of the state seem to
> > have bypassed much of the inland area. ( Particularly those inland
> > areas in which people travel through to get elsewhere, along
> > Interstates
> > 5 and 15) - The inland-coastal divide
> > is more severe than the north-south divide and WAY more severe than
> > the intra-regional rivalries (SF v. East Bay, LA v. OC, etc.) which
> > have gotten more public attention.
> >
> I don't think a lot of people "get it" unless they take a personal
> interest in this sort of thing. In Chicago we do have some very fine
> and some experimental restaurants. I'm sure part of this is that
> different chefs influence each other, new chefs come out of the
> kitchens of some of the more notable ones and start their own places.
> Just a few notable chefs in this city have spawned a great deal of
> interesting places. I like to hear about the background of the chef
> before I go to a good restaurant because that tells you a bit of what
> to look for in terms of philosophy.
>
> Now the question is whether or not the dining audience appreciates
> this, and whether or not they appreciate this enough to pay the money
> for the experience. I think such an audience is growing, although the
> majority of diner probably just want something good, tasty and hearty,
> rather than having an intellectual challenging on their plates! Of
> course there are also those who like the status of going to a "hot,
> trendy" place even if the chef's efforts are over their heads!
>
> Still, I think that there has been a growing interest in serious
> dining throughout the country. There are now quite a few food
> magazines who try to educate the consumer rather than just featurie
> recipes. I might mention that Food Network has some excellent
> programs as well, not only promoting American cuisine, but also
> discussing many of the cuisines of the world (hmmm, just thought it
> would be interesting if they had a series on food history? I would be
> wonderful to see a who on the foods of the Middle Ages! A serious
> thing, and not just grimy reenactors eating legs of roast mutton!)
In Southern Spain there have been recreations of Moorish haute
cuisine - although TBF many dishes from that area and from North
Africa are directly derived from the cuisine of Al-Andalus. There
have been a few recreations of Roman cuisine, but it's usually
the fancy stuff (which valued ostentatiousness more than taste).
Then again, the cuisine of the average person in the Roman Empire
was not that different from some Mediterranean cuisines. Umbria
especially (where the local cuisine seems to have been unaffected
by the discovery of the Americas) , but also Provence,Catalonia,
Liguria, Corsica, etc.
> > > I've heard England has also gone through a culinary renaissance. I
> > > found a vast difference in my eating experiences between my first
> > > visit and my last (a span of a few decades).
> >
> > True. London is now a great place to eat. I'm sure part of it is
> > because
> > of London being one of the most diverse cities in the world ( more
> > than
> > any North American cities except for NYC and maybe Toronto ),
>
> I suspect, it's not just diversity, but access to ingredients. Major
> centers always have this over more obscure locals.
>
> Of course, one of the reasons that France and Italy have such fine
> food is because they WANT to have it.
Spain also (even the meat and potatoes Castilian cuisine)
They care about it
> tremendously. Among my English friends an interest in cuisine seems
> to be minimal. But when I talk to anyone from the continent it's
> almost impossible NOT to end up in a conversation about good eating!
> ;-) But I think that's changing. I think there is an increase in
> interest in cuisine and cooking in both England and America.
>
> BTW, in researching for my English/French trip various spots in
> England touted the history, the view, the gardens, etc, but every
> French spot boasted in big letters that their food was beyond compare!
> ;-)
Again, it applies to Spain as well, even places I wouldn't consider
to be culinary hot spots like Castille-Leon and Extremadura.
> > part of it has to do with the influence of the class system and
> > the old social structures having diminished, and I'm sure the
> > hardships
> > of the Depression/WW2 and the scarcity of the immediate postwar era
> > had something to do with it as well - a parallel with the US.
> >
> Yes. I was given this explaination as well.
>
> > Chef. writer and world
> > > traveler Anthony Bourdain, was asked his favorite country in terms of
> > > exciting restaurant dining. Everyone expected him to say "France".
> > > Instead, he surprised all by saying "England". He felt some of the
> > > most exciting things now coming out of a kitchen were coming from
> > > there.
> >
> > I don't know how much Iraq-war politics has had to do with this...
> >
> I heard him say this before 9-11. I think it was more that he was
> trained in French cooking and that experimentation beyond the
> tradition was minimal (hmmm, little pun there when you consider that
> there was that French movement, I can't recall the name, which was on
> the minimalist side!) Since England is rediscovering it's cooking
> (and the cooking of its immigrants) they feel freer to do new things.
It should be noted that English cuisine, at heart, took much from
Norman
cuisine of the Middle Ages - so there is a common source with northern
France.
> > A LOT. Then again, the art world has been effectively
> > internationalized
> > since the post-WWII years.
> >
> Well, personally I think the art world is a bit of a mess. Part of
> this IMHO is because what most people consider art, painting and
> sculpture, has become less and less important in our world.
Essentially, painting and sculpture are for the most part dead forms.
So much
> of it is has become elitist and inaccesible.
Agreed.
Though some of it is
> interesting, it doesn't reallly have all that much function or impact
> in our society. To make any noise at all it usually has to shock or
> be something never before seen or done, always breaking barriers. But
> is this innovation or gimmick?
In many cases it is gimmick, e.g. Damien Hurst
Is the so called "art world" having a
> slow but certain death?
>
> IMHO the real art forms are coming from different places. Design,
> photography, films, illustration, advertising, television, fashion,
> etc. are far more interesting and significant than traditional art
> forms. But again, that's just personal opinion.
Although most of these forms are acknowledged as being part of the
"Art world" ( TV being the only exception ). The barriers broke down
with Pop and never will be put up again, despite the whining and
moaning of certain sore losers.
Because this sort of
> thing can't be analyzed or dealt with in the same way as traditional
> art forms (especially with the idea of the single romantic artist at
> the helm) it's even hard for this to be accepted.
In the case of photography it can be easily accepted and has been
for some time.
And of course,
> because so much of this is popular or commerical, many can't believe
> that these forms are capable of being true art. JMHO.
People forget about the Renaissance and Baroque masters having patrons
and
working for their patrons' agendas. ( The late Kenneth Clark made
some statement about the second half of the 20th c. being a "new
Baroque
era" or something to that effect, although he didn't mean it as a
compliment)
> > Agreed. Also, it is easy to forget how international the cinema was in
> > the silent days when there were no language barriers.
> >
> Although the visual signs could be often be quite different.
When it comes to silent Japanese films, agreed. Films from Europe
(including
Russia) and the US were essentially using the cinematic language of
Griffith
> i think what IS of particular interest is how Hollywood, one of the
> absolutly most significant players in the world film scene, was so
> international.
True
Not just the actors, but behind the scenes. IMHO
> that's why the golden age of Hollywood film was as good as it was. It
> took the best of many different film cultures and exploited them for
> their own product. Of course, today they are more likely to take
> films from other cultures, strip them as much as possible to a uniform
> blandness and then serve them out to a public without the knowledge to
> care. Ummm, JMHO! ;-)
Ironically enough, in terms of the people IN FRONT of the cameras,
there
seems to be fewer non-Anglophones than ever.
> > Correct. There were plenty of Spanish Impressionists like Sorrolla and
> > Mir, (although most of them
> > came from the Catalan speaking regions of Spain, closer to France and
> > much
> > more open to influences from the rest of Europe - and remember
> > Barcelona
> > was the farthest west of the great cultural centers of 19th c.
> > Europe), some
> > Italian Impressionists, even a few Portuguese ones. (Granted that most
> > of
> > them got their influences from Paris )
> >
> Well, within "Impressionism" you can breakdown individual elements.
> You get an interest in optical perceptions, an interest in everyday
> subject matter and an interest in painterly technique. But
> throughout the Western art world you can see all of these trends. If
> you take the pre-Raphelites, for example, you can get an interest in
> science and the meticulous visual effects. In someone like Firth
> (just one of many, many English artists of the social realist scene)
> you get pictures of everyday life. Ironcially, as the French were
> rebelling against the linear technique of earlier French artists, the
> English were rebelling against the too painterly examples of their art
> by turning more linear!
>
> The point is, Impressionism and many other signficant French movements
> were but a fraction of greater interests that were going on in the
> rest of the world. It wasn't an evolution of something that was
> uniquely French.
>
> Of course, since I mentioned English influences on French art, you
> might say, ah ha! It's England that's to be praised, not France! But
> that would be wrong as well. One could find other examples in other
> places (it would be easy to throw in Germany, for example)
I'm not really that familiar with German painting after the Romantics
and
before modernism. The "official" art of Bismarck's Germany seems to
have
been forgotten even more than the Establishment French art of the
Empire ( in fact, the only Establishment cultural figure of 1860s-80s
Germany whose work is still taken seriously at all is the composer
Brahms)
and you'd
> find that all of these things were so intermixed and interrelated that
> the very idea of cultural supremacy is absurd! The fashion to buy an
> art coming from one country is one thing, but the genius that created
> it usually evolved from multiple locales.
>
> Etc. etc. These sorts of things > It's
> > > nice and neat to study art as an evolution of French painting, but it
> > > simply isn't true.
> >
> > Paris was not only Europe's cultural capitol in the 19th c. but the
> > world's,
> > and part of the French resentment of decline has to do with Paris
> > having
> > declined in importance to merely an important and influential large
> > city rather
> > than The City.
>
> It was a center, but as a center drew potential artists from all over.
> With that brought new ideas. I also want to mention that the
> romantic movement itself also encouraged an interest in other
> cultures.
True. Not just "orientalism" either - it also encouraged an
interest in Europe's Deep South - Neapolitan and Sevillan "exotica"
> BTW, I think the occupation of France in the 19th century was more
> influential than a lot of people realize. Not to mention all the
> other significant political events. Artists did not live immune form
> the situations surrounding them.
>
> > Speaking of France, it's interesting that there is now a bit of a
> > backlash
> > against the severe outbreak of puerile anti-Americanism - I wonder
> > when the
> > backlash against the severe US outbreak of puerile Europhobia
> > especially
> > Francophobia and Germanophobia will hit. Them bashing us and us
> > bashing them
> > for reasons beyond merely policy disagreements is a disgrace to us and
> > them.
> >
> ITA. But I must say that on a personal level I found no rudeness
> towards me because I was an American when I was there last month. I
> also have not found any anti-German sentiments in America whereas I've
> found a great deal of anti-French sentiments.
There does seem to be less, for whatever reason, but it does exist.
( Considering history, you'd expect there to be more...)
I find this VERY
> curious. Returning to what I was discussing earlier with Tron, I was
> speaking on the phone with a friend who was complaining about how she
> hated France and the French and how they were all snooty and hated
> Americans. This had nothing to do with current politics, as she'd
> voiced these feelings before. I had to remind her that she had NEVER
> been to France and never even met anyone French. Still, that doesn't
> stop a lot of people in their opinions.
I know.
>
> > > Even many things we think of in the past as being part of a
> > > > "pure" national culture were taken from elsewhere. You'd have to go back
> > > > to the 17th century to find a Western culture devoid of outside influences,
> > > > at least.
> > > >
> > > I don't think you can really go back far enough, not unless you're
> > > going somewhere where there is absolutely no contact with ANYWHERE
> > > else!
> >
> > And even then, for example in Mesoamerica, everyone took from the
> > Olmecs,
> > although much of it was via the Mayans...
> >
> There are surely cultures in Mesoamerica of which we don't even have a
> clue!. I imagine that's a very interesting area to study.
There isn't too much known about the Olmecs but they appear to have
been the prototype for the others, especially the Mayans - which makes
sense considering they were in the same area.
>
> BTW, I was reading a fascinating book a few months back, on Classical
> art. It wasn't so much about Greek art of the 5th century, as it was
> about the preceptions of what was classical art through history. That
> most of what we see as classical art is based on copies,
> reproductions, etc. And, of course history's misinterpretations of
> the art based on misattributions. If anyone is interested, I could
> get the correct title and author.
>
> > Even ancient Greek art was heavily influenced Egyption models.
> > > Of course, they eventually made it their own specifications, but
> > > that's the point. You learn from others and develop it to suit your
> > > own needs.
> >
> > Exactly - much like how classical Indian art was heavily influenced by
> > Hellenistic-Roman models.
> >
> Yes! Gandara. And how much of Hellenistic-Roman art was influenced
> by other conquered cultures...
>
> > > The origins of the art of the Middle Ages is fascinating. They are a
> > > mix of ancient Roman, of Celtic tribes, of Arab art (which has a whole
> > > history of it's own Eastern influences)
> >
> > some Greco-Roman, some Persian, and even some Indian.
> >
> Yes! It's a fascinating web.
>
> > , etc. Sometimes it's less
> > > easy to pick out the sources than it appears. Some of what appears to
> > > be Celtic or Northern patterning actually came out of later Roman art.
> >
> > Like how late Roman sculpture from the period of decline was often
> > wrongly
> > thought to be mediaeval to Renaissance observers.
> >
> Of course a lot of scholars also thought that classical influence on
> the Renaissance was strictly a return to the antique when some of
> those influences were actually just a continuation of elements that
> DID come out of Medieval art!
Which was very obvious in Italy and the Mediterranean regions, less
obvious in the north.
> JMHO,
> Eve
E. C. Lee
how many groups are here and I don't know how I could
possibly be on topic to all!
afro...@yahoo.com (E. C. Lee) wrote in message
news:<f0cfed5b.03092...@posting.google.com>...
> lechi...@hotmail.com (melektaus) wrote in message
news:<16e253af.03092...@posting.google.com>...
<snipping a tremendous amount of stuff--the last being
about the complexity of the current state of the art
in high cuisine>
>In Southern Spain there have been recreations of
Moorish haute
cuisine - although TBF many dishes from that area and
from North
>Africa are directly derived from the cuisine of
Al-Andalus.
Very interesting. I'd be very interested in trying
it. I know there's a wonderful group from Spain,
"Radio Tarifa" that does the same thing with music. I
wonder if this is a general trend.
There
have been a few recreations of Roman cuisine, but it's
usually
>>the fancy stuff (which valued ostentatiousness more
than taste).
Then again, the cuisine of the average person in the
Roman Empire
>>was not that different from some Mediterranean
cuisines. Umbria
especially (where the local cuisine seems to have been
unaffected
>by the discovery of the Americas) ,
Umbrian food is one of my favorites in Italy. I
remember some wonderful truffles from Norcia.
>but also Provence,Catalonia,
Liguria, Corsica, etc.
I don't know much about Corsican. I'd certainly like
to.
All very interesting. It's hard to divorce a lot of
cuisine from the discovery of the America. Potatoes,
tomatoes, peppers, chocolate, etc. have become so much
a part of the diet of so many places it's almost
impossible to separate them.
Speaking of Spain again, there's a fascinating
cookbook called "A Drizzle of Honey" about the food of
the Jews in Spain. It included a great deal of
historical materials in addition to recipes. It
talked a great deal about how families were betrayed
as Jews by their neighbors during the inquisition due
to their dietary habits. The book had a nice tie in
to cuisine as it related to history, something that I
always like to see.
>> Of course, one of the reasons that France and Italy
have such fine
>> food is because they WANT to have it.
>Spain also (even the meat and potatoes Castilian
cuisine)
I love Spanish food, both cooking and eating it. I
remember how surprised I was when I first discovered
it. I think a lot of Americans just assume it would
be close to Mexican cooking when it's nothing of the
sort. Of course, most Americans assume Mexican
cusine is what in reality is more likely to be Mexican
street food.
>Again, it applies to Spain as well, even places I
wouldn't consider
to be culinary hot spots like Castille-Leon and
Extremadura.
Interesting. I've never been to either place. I'll
have to consult with my Spainish cookbooks!
>It should be noted that English cuisine, at heart,
took much from
Norman
>cuisine of the Middle Ages - so there is a common
source with northern
France.
OTH, isn't a lot of what we associate with French
cuisine, come from Italy with one of the Medici
queens? Now judging from my knowledge of 13th
century Medieval history, I would think that Northern
French cooking, would be fairly simple whereas the
South, which was more Roman inspired, would be more
elaborate.
<snip>
>Essentially, painting and sculpture are for the most
part dead forms.
ITA. Not that there aren't some people doing
interesting things, but they no longer have a heck of
a lot of meaning outside a select group.
Though some of it is
>> interesting, it doesn't reallly have all that much
function or impact
>> in our society. To make any noise at all it
usually has to shock or
>> be something never before seen or done, always
breaking barriers. But
>> is this innovation or gimmick?
>In many cases it is gimmick, e.g. Damien Hurst
Which IMHO is pretty sad. I don't know if there's a
way to revitalize these forms. Their time as
significant media in our culture might have come and
gone, but if any kind of come back is possible, I
don't think it's going to be through shock. Shock has
because old hat!
Is the so called "art world" having a
> slow but certain death?
OTH, perhaps it just needs to be redefined? JMHO.
> >IMHO the real art forms are coming from different
places. Design,
>> photography, films, illustration, advertising,
television, fashion,
>>> forms. But again, that's just personal opinion.
>Although most of these forms are acknowledged as
being part of the
"Art world" ( TV being the only exception ).
Well, it's been a process. Even still, I think they
are marginalized in the art world as less important
than painting and sculpture. But that will change.
As for TV, that's why I find it so exciting. Not that
everything is brilliant, but there are some things
that are AND there's enormous potential. I think the
same is true of computer art. There's also
illustration, for example,which is still alive and
well if you look in children's books. There are
incredible things in book design. I think the secret
is in looking in looking for art unexpected places.
>The barriers broke down
with Pop and never will be put up again, despite the
whining and
>moaning of certain sore losers.
Because this sort of
>> thing can't be analyzed or dealt with in the same
way as traditional
> >art forms (especially with the idea of the single
romantic artist at
>> the helm) it's even hard for this to be accepted.
>In the case of photography it can be easily accepted
and has been
for some time.
It was so easy. It actually took a while. I remember
photography has to push it's way into museums! Then
it became chic! When I was taking classes on
photographic history and it was considered very
progressive! The art history establishment can be
very conservative.
Still, photography can easily adapt to the art
establishment, in comparison with a lot of other
things. It frames nicely and hangs passively on a
wall. There aren't a lot of extra things like
movement and sound that confuse things. In many ways,
it's just like painting. OTH, there's video and
television, for example. So many differences from
standard forms! I'm sure the very idea of such a
thing makes a lot of people out there wince!
And of course,
>> because so much of this is popular or commerical,
many can't believe
>> that these forms are capable of being true art.
JMHO.
>People forget about the Renaissance and Baroque
masters having patrons
>and
working for their patrons' agendas. ( The late Kenneth
Clark made
>some statement about the second half of the 20th c.
being a "new
Baroque
>era" or something to that effect, although he didn't
mean it as a
compliment)
Well, Clark was a man of his time! Or should I say,
the art establishment of the time! I've recently been
reading art books that look at the Renaissance less
from the POV of the godlike artists producing miracles
and more as well trained and talented producers of
products of their time. Incredible products of
course, but products none the less! Dull though this
might sound, it's actually terribly fascinating.
I've also seen books that catagorize works of art not
by artists as commonly done, but by patron, with the
understanding that the patron's impact on works of art
can also be significant.
> > Agreed. Also, it is easy to forget how
international the cinema was in
> > the silent days when there were no language
barriers.
> >
> Although the visual signs could be often be quite
different.
>When it comes to silent Japanese films, agreed. Films
from Europe
(including
>Russia) and the US were essentially using the
cinematic language of
Griffith
Yes. Of course, Griffith was also influenced by other
cinemas (Italian for example) and by the art admired
at the time. One can see some direct influences by
English artists Long and Martin and, of course, the
pre-Raphelites. There's also a lot of influence from
the theatre styles of the time.
<snip>
>I'm not really that familiar with German painting
after the Romantics
and
>before modernism.
Check out Runge, Friedrich and the Nazarines if you
get a chance.
<snip>
>
>> It was a center, but as a center drew potential
artists from all over.
>> With that brought new ideas. I also want to
mention that the
>> romantic movement itself also encouraged an
interest in other
>> cultures.
>True. Not just "orientalism" either - it also
encouraged an
interest in Europe's Deep South - Neapolitan and
Sevillan "exotica"
Yes. There was a LOT of interest in Spain. And
obviously Japan (I assume you meant Mid Eastern art
with the term Orientalism). In fact, when I was
discussing Impressionism I forgot to mention the
critical influence of Japanese art, but was also of
significance in late 19th century English art is a
different manner. Look at the works of Moore and
Beardsley. And the very worldly American, Whistler.
JMHO,
Eve
Ilya Popov
> Q...@wotmania.com (Ilya Popov) wrote in message news:<ad359333.03092...@posting.google.com>...
> > "Olusculum" <1...@1.com> wrote in message news:<3f703c43$0$19233$79c1...@nan-newsreader-01.noos.net>...
> > > "BernardZ" <Berna...@OPTUShotmail.com remove OPTUS> wrote in message
> > > news:MPG.19dad4316146736498978f@news...
> > >
> > > > As well as that the US today is the major center in the world for
> > > > scientific, culture, movies, history and sports.
> > > >
> > > Culture? any great music or book or philosophy or architecture that will be
> > > remembered and used a models?
> >
> >
> > Can I cite a few? At least from the Englightenment Period? Like Henry
> > David Thoreau? And Ralph Waldo Emerson? And Louisa May Alcott?
>
> Thoreaux and Alcott were a century after The Enlightenment. Emerson
> was two centuries after The Enlightenment.
This doesn't hide that American flag behind their back.
> > I mean,
> > I know we're playing the Pretend Nothing Good Came Out of America
> > game, but that's only mostly true of the present day America.
>
> Nobody is playing the Nothing Good Came Out Of America Game. We're
> just playing the Better Things Come Out Of Europe Game. And if you
> want to be intelectual about it - viz: The Enlightenment - then get
> your period right.
Can we still ignore the fact that they're American? Or can we argue
semantics like dooshbags?
> > While we're at it, we can ignore T.S. Eliot. Who also happened to be
> > American.
>
> Welsh. Not American.
Thomas Stearns Eliot was born in Missouri, USA, on September 26, 1888.
> > And Neal Stephenson and Robert E. Howard, who're two terrific American
> > writers, one from the turn of the 20th century, and one who's still
> > alive and writing.
>
> Neal Stephenson is even younger than I am. Don't know his work, but I
> imagine it's a matter of taste and never heard of outside the Us of A.
He's a fantastic American writer. He just released his newest novel,
Quicksilver: Book One of the Baroque Cycle
He is, in my opinion, one of the finest contemporary speculative
fiction writers in America. He's more well known for Cryptonomicon and
Snow Crash, if that helps.
> He can't write unless he is plugged into his headphones, apparently.
Fallacy of illogic. A good book is a good book is a good book.
But you're welcome to go on sounding like a tit at your expense.
> Sounds like my son when he was doing his homework.
Out of control and fantastically funny?
> There are dozens of
> Robert Howards about. Non-Usians might never have heard of the one you
> are talking of.
>
I have no idea what a Usian is.
*is ignorant*
> Renia
Ilya
Ilya Popov
> be
> >> American.
>
>
> > Welsh. Not American.
>
> Eliot, who was born in St Louis, Missouri.
Hey man, it's all cool. No worries.
> Renia
Ilya
tiglath
"E. C. Lee" <afro...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:f0cfed5b.03100...@posting.google.com...
> I think a lot of Americans just assume it would
> be close to Mexican cooking when it's nothing of the
> sort.
Too true. My last paella was cooked by a Peruvian chef. Not bad really.
But even in Manhattan posh Spanish restaurants one can spot Cuban and
Mexican dishes. A "hot-burrito" is not Spanish food. Nothing wrong with
Hispanic food; I particularly enjoy the meats of Argentina, much as my wife
is not from Buenos Aires, but there is little that can touch a "Ternasco amb
all-i-oli." Which is the whole leg of a very young lamb, spit roasted and
served with thick garlic mayonnaise. Yes in Spain we eat baby sheep. The
loin ribs are particularly good, none of that carving or chewing around
adult bone formations; you put the whole tiny rib in the mouth and the
tender meat almost melts to the tooth. They are best egged, breadcrumbed,
and quickly sauteed in olive oil. We eat baby pigs too, they look so
serene on a tray holding a small apple in their cute crispy snout, the best
part together with the ears.
The barrier to the English people to enjoy Spanish food is, generally, their
distaste for garlic. Until they throw themselves with reckless abandon to
the mercy of the Allium sativum bulb. I recommend sharing a couple of raw
cloves with your date until you can face each other in the morning without
shame.
Spanish food is part of the Mediterranean staple that is shared by all the
Mediterranean countries. We borrow from each other sometimes improving
recipes considerably. Take Canneloni, for example. In Italy the are
typically full of fatty cheese and little mean. In Spain, we make
Canelones Rossini, which are stuffed with a mixture of veal, liver, and
mushroom, about 2/10 liver only. The mushrooms carry any taste you fried
them in, and the veal's taste is made richer and even smother by the liver.
We cover them with a thick bechamel and the only cheese in it goes on top to
be toasted in the oven.
Some recipes make people balk... until they try them. Pig's feet and tripe
are two of those. The best tripe is stewed or if done well baked (after
boiling) with garlic and served with parsley. Pig's feet are just
incredible if done properly. Boiled for about three and a half hours with
stock ingredients, and finished in a sauce made with their own stock and a
ground mixture of saffron, almonds, and garlic.
My absolute favorite is "Habas a la Catalana." That is fava beans, no
chianti. Those beans are special. They have the ability to absorb the
surrounding juices and lock them in, and the next day, evaporation shrinks
them a bit and concentrate the taste to a heady trip. When my mother used
to cook them I found myself at four in the morning eating them cold by the
fridge cold if there was no tomorrow. I can make them almost as good, even
with American ingredients which sadly lack "Bisba" the thick blood sausage
Spain won't export despite their willingness to support the U.S. -- some
friends.
I am heading back next week for Halicarnassus. I still think the Western
Mediterranean makes better food that the eastern side, but those Turks know
lamb and sea food.
When America falls it will be remembered for having lousy Spanish food, for
one thing, and overpriced tapas.
E. C. Lee
Ummmmm. You are making me very hungry!
I haven't found any truely good Spanish restaurants in America, so
perhaps you're right? Maybe someday. And though the tapa thing has
caught on, though not in a way that really "gets" the idea of tapas,
Spanish food in general has not been given it's due.
OTH, sometimes you can get interesting translations of food as seen
through the eyes of another country's palette. On the whole, I'm not
too thrilled with Italian American food. Some of it is OK, but it's
not real Italian food (interestingly enough,I've found the newer chic
Italian restaurants are often closer to the real thing than the old
style family restaurants). However, one of my favorite Italian
restaurants in Chicago was run by an Argentinian. It seemed to have a
greater feel for the real deal than the older American places. Given
the Italian population in Argentina, this isn't a major surprise.
I've tried to do my own cooking to make up for the difference and have
tried to recreate what I remember from my travels. I've also used
some of what I think are the better cookbooks, although one is always
restricted by available ingredients. My Spanish cooking certainly not
up to your standards, Tiglath, but I do what I can.
And IMHO, one of the secrets for great cooking is to double the amount
of garlic that the recipe suggests! ;-)
JMHO,
Eve
IlyaonGoogle
> On 27 Sep 2003 12:01:32 -0700, Q...@wotmania.com (Ilya Popov) wrote:
>
> >> No they weren't! Australia was there too!
> >
> >
> >Don't listen to their excuses - they were just there to get some more sand.
>
> As soon as they found out that the beach stretches hundreds of miles
> inland, the Aussies were packing their bags to go.
It's because they heard they could make a killing selling Gold Lager.
You know it to be true.
Ilya
eravanna
>
> The two empires that most closely resemble the US are the British and
> Roman Empires.
also add France, Germany, Russia and Japan
But here is one Point to make that the USA has,
is we Have not try to permanently occupy another county
from our expansions in America that ended in the late 1800s
and if any our satellites want to leave there able buy just telling us
such as Puerto Rico US virgian islands and guam as the usa puts a lot more
Money in to those island economys they we get out of them
can we say the same about france in ivory coast?
Ц§вmв Янс KлсoЯн®
wrote:
> Which is the whole leg of a very young lamb, spit roasted and
> served with thick garlic mayonnaise. Yes in Spain we eat baby sheep.
So what? In Israel they eat baby Palestinians.
--
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melektaus
> Sorry for being so off topic, but I just realized
> how many groups are here and I don't know how I could
> possibly be on topic to all!
>
> afro...@yahoo.com (E. C. Lee) wrote in message
> news:<f0cfed5b.03092...@posting.google.com>...
> > lechi...@hotmail.com (melektaus) wrote in message
> news:<16e253af.03092...@posting.google.com>...
>
> <snipping a tremendous amount of stuff--the last being
> about the complexity of the current state of the art
> in high cuisine>
>
> >In Southern Spain there have been recreations of
> Moorish haute
> cuisine - although TBF many dishes from that area and
> from North
> >Africa are directly derived from the cuisine of
> Al-Andalus.
>
> Very interesting. I'd be very interested in trying
> it. I know there's a wonderful group from Spain,
> "Radio Tarifa" that does the same thing with music.
Radio Tarifa are fantastic!
I
> wonder if this is a general trend.
I'd say it has been for awhile...
> There
> have been a few recreations of Roman cuisine, but it's
> usually
> >>the fancy stuff (which valued ostentatiousness more
> than taste).
> Then again, the cuisine of the average person in the
> Roman Empire
> >>was not that different from some Mediterranean
> cuisines. Umbria
> especially (where the local cuisine seems to have been
> unaffected
> >by the discovery of the Americas) ,
>
> Umbrian food is one of my favorites in Italy. I
> remember some wonderful truffles from Norcia.
Agreed. I remember some wonderful restaurants in Assisi.
> >but also Provence,Catalonia,
> Liguria, Corsica, etc.
>
> I don't know much about Corsican. I'd certainly like
> to.
Similar to Ligurian, Provencal, Catalan, and to some
extent Tuscan. Descriptions of what the average Roman
ate definately resemble much of what we know as the
modern cuisine of Southern Europe.
>
> All very interesting. It's hard to divorce a lot of
> cuisine from the discovery of the America. Potatoes,
> tomatoes, peppers, chocolate, etc. have become so much
> a part of the diet of so many places it's almost
> impossible to separate them.
Particularly it is hard to imagine Sicilian and Southern
Italian cuisine without the tomato!
> Speaking of Spain again, there's a fascinating
> cookbook called "A Drizzle of Honey" about the food of
> the Jews in Spain. It included a great deal of
> historical materials in addition to recipes. It
> talked a great deal about how families were betrayed
> as Jews by their neighbors during the inquisition due
> to their dietary habits. The book had a nice tie in
> to cuisine as it related to history, something that I
> always like to see.
"The Big Book of Couscous" (I forget the name of the author ;
I believe it was by a French-Algerian Sephardic Jew) has some
old Sephardic recipes in it.
> >> Of course, one of the reasons that France and Italy
> have such fine
> >> food is because they WANT to have it.
>
> >Spain also (even the meat and potatoes Castilian
> cuisine)
>
> I love Spanish food, both cooking and eating it. I
> remember how surprised I was when I first discovered
> it. I think a lot of Americans just assume it would
> be close to Mexican cooking when it's nothing of the
> sort.
It's nothing like Mexican cooking. Now one can certainly
see very heavy Castilian influence on Argentine cuisine.
Of course, most Americans assume Mexican
> cusine is what in reality is more likely to be Mexican
> street food.
What most Americans think of as Mexican cuisine is from
Sonora, which is essentially the most Americanized culinary
region in Mexico. Americans probably wouldn't even recognize
cuisine from Chiapas or Veracruz...
> >Again, it applies to Spain as well, even places I
> wouldn't consider
> to be culinary hot spots like Castille-Leon and
> Extremadura.
>
> Interesting. I've never been to either place. I'll
> have to consult with my Spainish cookbooks!
Castile is meat and potatoes country. Cocina extremena also.
As most people with an interest in such things know, the hot
culinary areas of Spain are Catalonia and the Basque Region,
also Valencia.
> >It should be noted that English cuisine, at heart,
> took much from
> Norman
> >cuisine of the Middle Ages - so there is a common
> source with northern
> France.
>
> OTH, isn't a lot of what we associate with French
> cuisine, come from Italy with one of the Medici
> queens? Now judging from my knowledge of 13th
> century Medieval history, I would think that Northern
> French cooking, would be fairly simple whereas the
> South, which was more Roman inspired, would be more
> elaborate.
From what Anthony Blond wrote, Provencal cuisine is VERY
similar to ancient Roman (other than a few additional
ingredients). This would explain further the deep
similarities between Provencal and not only Ligurian and
Corsican but also Catalan.
I'm not familiar with the cuisine of Languedoc - I
imagine it's good being right in between the Catalan and
Provencal areas!
> <snip>
>
> >Essentially, painting and sculpture are for the most
> part dead forms.
>
> ITA. Not that there aren't some people doing
> interesting things, but they no longer have a heck of
> a lot of meaning outside a select group.
>
> Though some of it is
> >> interesting, it doesn't reallly have all that much
> function or impact
> >> in our society. To make any noise at all it
> usually has to shock or
> >> be something never before seen or done, always
> breaking barriers. But
> >> is this innovation or gimmick?
>
> >In many cases it is gimmick, e.g. Damien Hurst
>
> Which IMHO is pretty sad. I don't know if there's a
> way to revitalize these forms. Their time as
> significant media in our culture might have come and
> gone, but if any kind of come back is possible, I
> don't think it's going to be through shock. Shock has
> because old hat!
"If a rock band were to commit human sacrifice on stage
they would not be as radical as Elvis Presley was when
he first came out " - Jim Reid, Jesus and Mary Chain
> Is the so called "art world" having a
> > slow but certain death?
>
> OTH, perhaps it just needs to be redefined? JMHO.
>
> > >IMHO the real art forms are coming from different
> places. Design,
> >> photography, films, illustration, advertising,
> television, fashion,
> >>> forms. But again, that's just personal opinion.
>
> >Although most of these forms are acknowledged as
> being part of the
> "Art world" ( TV being the only exception ).
>
> Well, it's been a process. Even still, I think they
> are marginalized in the art world as less important
> than painting and sculpture. But that will change.
>
> As for TV, that's why I find it so exciting. Not that
> everything is brilliant, but there are some things
> that are AND there's enormous potential. I think the
> same is true of computer art. There's also
> illustration, for example,which is still alive and
> well if you look in children's books. There are
> incredible things in book design. I think the secret
> is in looking in looking for art unexpected places.
Agreed - but hasn't this been an old story? Going back at
least to Warhol, probably to the surrealists
Indeed, painting has never recovered from photography usurping
its functions.
True - as any study of the medieval, Renaissance and Baroque
eras can tell you!
> > > Agreed. Also, it is easy to forget how
> international the cinema was in
> > > the silent days when there were no language
> barriers.
> > >
> > Although the visual signs could be often be quite
> different.
>
> >When it comes to silent Japanese films, agreed. Films
> from Europe
> (including
> >Russia) and the US were essentially using the
> cinematic language of
> Griffith
>
> Yes. Of course, Griffith was also influenced by other
> cinemas (Italian for example) and by the art admired
> at the time. One can see some direct influences by
> English artists Long and Martin and, of course, the
> pre-Raphelites.
Griffith's visual language took A LOT from Remington
and Sargent, more than even the pre-Raphaelites
There's also a lot of influence from
> the theatre styles of the time.
True. The early Italian silents essentially took their
style from opera ; people forget that Italian opera in the
19th and early 20th centuries was popular entertainment,
which is why the opera culture in late 19th century
America was so Germanophilic
> <snip>
>
> >I'm not really that familiar with German painting
> after the Romantics
> and
> >before modernism.
>
> Check out Runge, Friedrich and the Nazarines if you
> get a chance.
Friedrich is usually considered a Romantic....
> <snip>
> >
> >> It was a center, but as a center drew potential
> artists from all over.
> >> With that brought new ideas. I also want to
> mention that the
> >> romantic movement itself also encouraged an
> interest in other
> >> cultures.
>
> >True. Not just "orientalism" either - it also
> encouraged an
> interest in Europe's Deep South - Neapolitan and
> Sevillan "exotica"
>
> Yes. There was a LOT of interest in Spain.
Southern Italy as well and of course Greece too
And
> obviously Japan (I assume you meant Mid Eastern art
> with the term Orientalism).
Yes.
In fact, when I was
> discussing Impressionism I forgot to mention the
> critical influence of Japanese art, but was also of
> significance in late 19th century English art is a
> different manner. Look at the works of Moore and
> Beardsley. And the very worldly American, Whistler.
Whistler: America's first truly international painter.
> JMHO,
> Eve
melektaus
influences from one culture get changed in another.
I remember coming back from Europe and being taken to dinner at Miceli's,
an old line Italo-American restaurant in Hollywood that is one of the very
few survivors from the golden age of Hollywood Blvd. in the 30s and 40s
(the only other one being Musso and Franks, erstwhile hangout of Faulkner,
Fitzgerald, etc. ) which survived the later decline of the neighborhood.
Being used to Italian cuisine as it was made in Italy, I couldn't get
used to it. Then again L.A. never was a city for Italian food like the
northeastern cities or SF.
Many so-called "Spanish" restaurants in the US that I've been to have
Cuban dishes on the menu - I've only been to one good Spanish
restaurant in the US, the no longer extant La Masia in Beverly Hills.
No big surprise that the only foreign cuisines common in Argentina
are Spanish and Italian. It is surprising that there are so few
Central and Eastern European or Middle Eastern restaurants there, though.
- Melek Taus, who could really use some gambas al ajillo right now...
Bryn Fraser
KëńoßíŽ <ab...@anarchy.gov> writes
>A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away, "tiglath" <te...@tiglath.net>
>wrote:
>
>> Which is the whole leg of a very young lamb, spit roasted and
>> served with thick garlic mayonnaise. Yes in Spain we eat baby sheep.
>
>So what? In Israel they eat baby Palestinians.
Much as I like babies, I could not eat a whole one...
>
--
Bryn Fraser
"I did not have sexual relations with that woman!" Bill Clinton
The Good Old Days, Days of Innocence...
Fabian
"eravanna" <erav...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:Lg1gb.57242$Of2.2...@twister.tampabay.rr.com...
>
> >
> > The two empires that most closely resemble the US are the British
and
> > Roman Empires.
>
> also add France, Germany, Russia and Japan
But then, that wouldnt be two now, would it? This must be the famous US
ability to add numbers and count votes at work ;)
> But here is one Point to make that the USA has,
> is we Have not try to permanently occupy another county
Hawaii. The Iroquois Confederation. The second one is arguable, but the
first was internationally recognised at the time.
--
Fabian
Visit my website often and for long periods!
http://www.lajzar.co.uk
Ilya Popov
> A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away, "tiglath" <te...@tiglath.net>
> wrote:
>
> > Which is the whole leg of a very young lamb, spit roasted and
> > served with thick garlic mayonnaise. Yes in Spain we eat baby sheep.
>
> So what? In Israel they eat baby Palestinians.
With a side of pork.
Ilya
Christians for Cheeseburgers.
"eravanna" <erav...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:Lg1gb.57242$Of2.2...@twister.tampabay.rr.com...
>
> >
Puerto Ricans voted not to change the status quo. US jobs go there but we
don't get tax dollars back.
Guams value is in its location. When your 100's or 1000's of miles from
anywhere, it's nice to have a dry spot to land on. Hafa Adai!
France actively raped all its colonies. And let's not forget, if Britain had
a little different attitude towards those whippersnappers on the other side
of the pond, the US would probably still be part of the British empire. I
guess you could say the same about Russia raping eastern Europe. As soon as
the Euros saw a tiny crack of light through the jail door, they all ran like
hell.
E. C. Lee
> Italian-American food is different from Italian. Another example of how
> influences from one culture get changed in another.
>
> I remember coming back from Europe and being taken to dinner at Miceli's,
> an old line Italo-American restaurant in Hollywood that is one of the very
> few survivors from the golden age of Hollywood Blvd. in the 30s and 40s
> (the only other one being Musso and Franks, erstwhile hangout of Faulkner,
> Fitzgerald, etc. ) which survived the later decline of the neighborhood.
> Being used to Italian cuisine as it was made in Italy, I couldn't get
> used to it. Then again L.A. never was a city for Italian food like the
> northeastern cities or SF.
>
moved to the suburbs. The orignial Italian neighborhood was ripped up
for urban progress, though some of the restaurants are still there.
None of them do that much for me, though they are popular with others.
I think that a lot of Italian American restaurants might have adapted
to American tastes. They use too much sauce for my liking and the
pasta tends to be overcooked (I've known Americans who've been to
Italy and complained about the lack of sauce and the hard spaghetti!)
But I think the biggest problem might be in ingredients. A really
conscientious restaurant (and a really expensive one!) will go out of
its way to get the best ingredients, but most will get the least
expensive they can get away with using. I don't think a lot of the
consumers know the difference and are happy with what they get. OTH,
I've tried cookbooks specifically featuring Italian-American home
cooking and have come up with some wonderful results.
You definitely have to look at Italian-American cooking as a separate
cuisine from real Italian. And it can be very good. It's just
different. One of my favorite dishes actually originates in
Chicago.It's a heavily garliced chicken cooked in olive oil with white
wine and potatoes (potatoes very similar to those in one of my
favorite Southern Italian dishes, Chicken Basilicata, I believe it's
called--though I might have to check). This local dish is called
Chicken Vesuvio (excuse my spelling if I have it wrong--I'm a terrible
speller). I don't know if it's fame has spread to the rest of the
country.
> Many so-called "Spanish" restaurants in the US that I've been to have
> Cuban dishes on the menu - I've only been to one good Spanish
> restaurant in the US, the no longer extant La Masia in Beverly Hills.
>
> No big surprise that the only foreign cuisines common in Argentina
> are Spanish and Italian. It is surprising that there are so few
> Central and Eastern European or Middle Eastern restaurants there, though.
>
In Argentina? I've never been there, so I don't know. But I do know
that we've plenty of Central European, Eastern European and Middle
Eastern restaurants where I am now!
Eve
E. C. Lee
<snip Southern Spanish integration of Arab cuisine>
I know there's a wonderful group from Spain,
> > "Radio Tarifa" that does the same thing with music.
>
> Radio Tarifa are fantastic!
>
Have you ever seen them live? I did last year and they are even
better than recorded, hard as it is to believe that! It was a
wonderful space as well. Small and intimate, you were pretty much
right up next to them. Extraordinary evening. BTW, I think they'll
be performing in London soon, so those of you out there who can,
should see them. If anyone is interested, I might be able to get the
info.
> I
> > wonder if this is a general trend.
>
> I'd say it has been for awhile...
>
As far as music is concerned, on the other side of the coin you have
the Celtic Spanish group, Milladoiro. Is something similar at work
going on in Northern cooking? ;-)
> > There
> > have been a few recreations of Roman cuisine, but it's
> > usually
> > >>the fancy stuff (which valued ostentatiousness more
> > than taste).
> > Then again, the cuisine of the average person in the
> > Roman Empire
> > >>was not that different from some Mediterranean
> > cuisines. Umbria
> > especially (where the local cuisine seems to have been
> > unaffected
> > >by the discovery of the Americas) ,
> >
> > Umbrian food is one of my favorites in Italy. I
> > remember some wonderful truffles from Norcia.
>
> Agreed. I remember some wonderful restaurants in Assisi.
>
Assisi was good, but I had a few of my all time favorites in Perugia.
I hope you were there as well.
> > >but also Provence,Catalonia,
> > Liguria, Corsica, etc.
> >
> > I don't know much about Corsican. I'd certainly like
> > to.
>
> Similar to Ligurian, Provencal, Catalan, and to some
> extent Tuscan. Descriptions of what the average Roman
> ate definately resemble much of what we know as the
> modern cuisine of Southern Europe.
>
Hmmm. We'd have to cut a few things out though. Obviously the
tomatoes and any hot peppers. And there is the Arab influence. I
seem to recall something about the common Romans eating a sort of
grain porridge, or perhaps that was the army, but that's all I
remember.
I've a book on this that I really should read. Huge thing, and very
good from the little I skimmed. "A Mediterraean Feast". I did read,
Waverley Root's "Foods of Italy" about 15 years ago. In fact, I used
it as my guide while I was there. Extraordinary book. If you haven't
read it, you must. Wonderful integration of history. I lend it to
everyone I know who goes there and the poor book is falling completely
apart!
<snip>
> > Speaking of Spain again, there's a fascinating
> > cookbook called "A Drizzle of Honey" about the food of
> > the Jews in Spain. It included a great deal of
> > historical materials in addition to recipes. It
> > talked a great deal about how families were betrayed
> > as Jews by their neighbors during the inquisition due
> > to their dietary habits. The book had a nice tie in
> > to cuisine as it related to history, something that I
> > always like to see.
>
> "The Big Book of Couscous" (I forget the name of the author ;
> I believe it was by a French-Algerian Sephardic Jew) has some
> old Sephardic recipes in it.
>
Are you familiar with Copeland Marks? He has a lot of wonderful books
out, his thing is both trying to get down recipes from disappearing
cultures and to find neglected and minority cuisines. He wrote a
wonderful book that I own called "The Great Book of Couscous" (same
book?) where he does both recipes from various countries in North
Africa and then includes the Jewish dishes also found in these
countries. I've cooked a lot of the recipes. I own a great many
books by Marks. One of my favorites is on Burmese cooking, but I also
have one on the Maya of Guatelmala, minority cuisines in India,
Malayasian cooking, the food from the Himalayan rim, and Indonesian
cuisine. I know he has one on Peru and probably elsewhere. The
problem is I can't always find the ingredients for some of these
places, though my neighborhood is pretty well stocked on the whole.
> > >> Of course, one of the reasons that France and Italy
> have such fine
> > >> food is because they WANT to have it.
>
> > >Spain also (even the meat and potatoes Castilian
> > cuisine)
> >
> > I love Spanish food, both cooking and eating it. I
> > remember how surprised I was when I first discovered
> > it. I think a lot of Americans just assume it would
> > be close to Mexican cooking when it's nothing of the
> > sort.
>
> It's nothing like Mexican cooking.
It's said to be more "Indian" as in Native American, than anything
else.
Now one can certainly
> see very heavy Castilian influence on Argentine cuisine.
>
> Of course, most Americans assume Mexican
> > cusine is what in reality is more likely to be Mexican
> > street food.
>
> What most Americans think of as Mexican cuisine is from
> Sonora, which is essentially the most Americanized culinary
> region in Mexico. Americans probably wouldn't even recognize
> cuisine from Chiapas or Veracruz...
>
I think there has been a growing interest in regional cooking in
Mexico. Here in Chicago we have Rick Bayless who's been championing
the cause (he has major two Chicago restaurants, several cookbooks and
I believe two TV shows under his belt) and Diane Kennedy wrote a book
on the subject years ago. But I don't think it's really filtered down
to most people. BTW, I also found LA Mexican food to be different
from what I get in the neighborhoods of Chicago! Oh, another
recommendation if you aren't familiar with her. Elizabeth Ortiz has
written some wonderful Mexican and Latin American cookbooks. They
aren't as complicated as say, something by Bayless and I've been
assured by my Latin American friends that they taste authentic. Her
arroz con pollo has become one of my staples.
> > >Again, it applies to Spain as well, even places I
> > wouldn't consider
> > to be culinary hot spots like Castille-Leon and
> > Extremadura.
> <snip>
>
> From what Anthony Blond wrote, Provencal cuisine is VERY
> similar to ancient Roman (other than a few additional
> ingredients). This would explain further the deep
> similarities between Provencal and not only Ligurian and
> Corsican but also Catalan.
> I'm not familiar with the cuisine of Languedoc - I
> imagine it's good being right in between the Catalan and
> Provencal areas!
>
I'd read about Languedoc years ago and the food it sounded incredible.
Enough to make me want to go there for that reason alone (although
the history is enough to do that as well!) Looking at my Waverly Root
(yes, he wrote a "Foods of France" which is good, but not as complete
as his book on Italy) he describes it as peasant food influenced by
the cooking of Rome and the cooking of the Arabs. This may be due to
the proximaty of Arab occupied Spain for 800 years or to Arab
influenced strains in Roman cooking. They are particularly famed for
their cassoulets. According to Root, the cuisine of Languedoc is
quite distinct from that of Province despite their overlap of
ingredients.
> > <snip>
>>There are
> > incredible things in book design. I think the secret
> > is in looking in looking for art unexpected places.
>
> Agreed - but hasn't this been an old story? Going back at
> least to Warhol, probably to the surrealists
>
Going back to Marcel Duchamp, perhaps? And if you go far enough you
might find that in history or in other cultures what *we* consider art
would be something quite different from the concepts of others.
I think the boundaries have been pushed somewhat, but I'm not so sure
it's a universal given. There are a great deal of forms that are
still underappreciated. IMHO it's not the form that makes the art,
but the talent of whoever produces it. Unfortunately a lousy painting
would probably still get more respect than brilliant set design on a
soap opera.
<snip>
> >
> > Still, photography can easily adapt to the art
> > establishment, in comparison with a lot of other
> > things. It frames nicely and hangs passively on a
> > wall. There aren't a lot of extra things like
> > movement and sound that confuse things. In many ways,
> > it's just like painting.
>
> Indeed, painting has never recovered from photography usurping
> its functions.
>
Although it did give painting the impetus to explore some interesting
new areas.
<snip>
> > Yes. Of course, Griffith was also influenced by other
> > cinemas (Italian for example) and by the art admired
> > at the time. One can see some direct influences by
> > English artists Long and Martin and, of course, the
> > pre-Raphelites.
>
> Griffith's visual language took A LOT from Remington
> and Sargent, more than even the pre-Raphaelites
>
Films did take a lot from the art world. People don't always consider
that the art directors, production designers, costumers, etc. were
probably trained with some knowledge of art history. And several
notable directors came out of the world of art direction. Using
paintings as sources or as jumping points a great deal of film
iconography was developed.
Getting back to my soap opera example, I actually did do a paper for
my own enjoyment on a production designer who works in this field.
While house bound, I got involved in a show and started noticing that
the set was doing amazing things. It had a complex iconograpy going
which evolved with the story and it played formal tricks with color,
light and shape, etc. etc. I ended up writing the paper and sending
it to the art director, who told me, yes, he had originally had a
degree in art history before he worked in theatrical design and
television. He confirmed that he was intentionally doing all those
things I mentioned, and was thrilled that someone noticed!" Although
few people would pick up on the detail and prior knowledge that I had,
subliminaly the audience would grasp things. That one character lived
in a home with all sorts of cage-like motifs and images of predatory
birds. That even though two characters both lived in 18th century
decorated homes, the fact that one was of American design and the
other of European would tell you something about their characters.
Every piece of bric-o-brac, every painting, even the wallpaper, was
there to give you insights into the characters or story. There was a
wealth of detail, some overt and some incredibly subtle some even in
punning reference. It might be a detail that provided detail or
dramatic tension. Every image added something to the characters, the
story, the relationships. And this in a form that most people laugh
off as being "trash".
> There's also a lot of influence from
> > the theatre styles of the time.
>
> True. The early Italian silents essentially took their
> style from opera ; people forget that Italian opera in the
> 19th and early 20th centuries was popular entertainment,
> which is why the opera culture in late 19th century
> America was so Germanophilic
>
I think a lot of people are turned off to early films because they are
uncomfortable with opera or theatrical styles, which is a shame
because silent films can be wonderful. Quite a few rank as great
works of art.
Getting back to the art influence, you have to look at in German
silent films. There is a strong current of avant garde expressionism,
as mentioned before, filtering into the US and eventually makes its
way into the horror films of Universal and the film noir.
> > <snip>
> >
> > >I'm not really that familiar with German painting
> > after the Romantics
> > and
> > >before modernism.
> >
> > Check out Runge, Friedrich and the Nazarines if you
> > get a chance.
>
> Friedrich is usually considered a Romantic....
>
Sorry. I misunderstood you and included Romantics. I might include
all of them as romantic, but then AFAIC most things are all pretty
romantic before modernism! There's probably a German realist movement
as there was in France and England. I could look it up, but I'm not
familiar with it off hand. The Nazarines are precursors to the
PreRaphelites, but that's also early 19th century and quite romantic,
IMHO.
> > <snip>
>
> Whistler: America's first truly international painter.
Whistler is quite astonishing. I've been looking at his paintings
again and his work is amazing. It's also something that must be seen
in the flesh rather than just in reproductions to appreciate.
JMHO,
Eve
melektaus
> lechi...@hotmail.com (melektaus) wrote in message news:<16e253af.03100...@posting.google.com>...
> > Italian-American food is different from Italian. Another example of how
> > influences from one culture get changed in another.
> >
> > I remember coming back from Europe and being taken to dinner at Miceli's,
> > an old line Italo-American restaurant in Hollywood that is one of the very
> > few survivors from the golden age of Hollywood Blvd. in the 30s and 40s
> > (the only other one being Musso and Franks, erstwhile hangout of Faulkner,
> > Fitzgerald, etc. ) which survived the later decline of the neighborhood.
> > Being used to Italian cuisine as it was made in Italy, I couldn't get
> > used to it. Then again L.A. never was a city for Italian food like the
> > northeastern cities or SF.
> >
> Chicago has a reasonable Italian population, though many Italians have
> moved to the suburbs. The orignial Italian neighborhood was ripped up
> for urban progress, though some of the restaurants are still there.
Pre-WWII LA's "Little Italy" was where Chinatown is now (a pattern repeated
in NYC decades later). The closest thing to an Italian neighborhood in L.A.
during my lifetime would have been Los Feliz, though that never was a
"Little Italy" in the sense of northeastern and midwestern cities or SF.
There are a few old line Italo-American restaurants along North Vermont and
along Hillhurst.
> None of them do that much for me, though they are popular with others.
>
> I think that a lot of Italian American restaurants might have adapted
> to American tastes. They use too much sauce for my liking and the
> pasta tends to be overcooked (I've known Americans who've been to
> Italy and complained about the lack of sauce and the hard spaghetti!)
Like my mother complaining after going to Tuscan and Ligurian restaurants
here with a high degree of authenticity!
> But I think the biggest problem might be in ingredients. A really
> conscientious restaurant (and a really expensive one!) will go out of
> its way to get the best ingredients, but most will get the least
> expensive they can get away with using.
This may be part of the reason why North African restaurants tend to be
so expensive in the US
I don't think a lot of the
> consumers know the difference and are happy with what they get. OTH,
> I've tried cookbooks specifically featuring Italian-American home
> cooking and have come up with some wonderful results.
It's comfort food for me, as I grew up with it - but it's not the real
thing
> You definitely have to look at Italian-American cooking as a separate
> cuisine from real Italian. And it can be very good. It's just
> different. One of my favorite dishes actually originates in
> Chicago.It's a heavily garliced chicken cooked in olive oil with white
> wine and potatoes (potatoes very similar to those in one of my
> favorite Southern Italian dishes, Chicken Basilicata, I believe it's
> called--though I might have to check). This local dish is called
> Chicken Vesuvio (excuse my spelling if I have it wrong--I'm a terrible
> speller). I don't know if it's fame has spread to the rest of the
> country.
I thought it originated in SF - anyways it is common in California
>
> > Many so-called "Spanish" restaurants in the US that I've been to have
> > Cuban dishes on the menu - I've only been to one good Spanish
> > restaurant in the US, the no longer extant La Masia in Beverly Hills.
> >
> > No big surprise that the only foreign cuisines common in Argentina
> > are Spanish and Italian. It is surprising that there are so few
> > Central and Eastern European or Middle Eastern restaurants there, though.
> >
> In Argentina? I've never been there, so I don't know. But I do know
> that we've plenty of Central European, Eastern European and Middle
> Eastern restaurants where I am now!
It's interesting that Argentina was also a country of European immigrants
like the US, yet the cuisines of many of their native countries got left
behind. The only alternatives to la parrillada, the only foreign cuisines
easily available are Spanish and Italian. Again, this is no surprise
considering the ancestry of most Argentines coming from Spain and/or Italy.
But considering the number of Germans, Slavs, Jews, Greeks,Arabs,
Portuguese, etc. who emigrated to Buenos Aires in the late 19th and early
20th centuries, those cuisines are very rare in BA and nonexistent
elsewhere
As this is going to SHWI, perhaps make a WI out of this: WI more emigrants'
cuisines in Argentina survived? Or another WI: alternate cuisines that were
"Americanized"
> Eve
John Lamont
> "eravanna" <erav...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:Lg1gb.57242$Of2.2...@twister.tampabay.rr.com...
> >
> > >
> > > The two empires that most closely resemble the US are the British
> and
> > > Roman Empires.
> >
> > also add France, Germany, Russia and Japan
>
> But then, that wouldnt be two now, would it? This must be the famous US
> ability to add numbers and count votes at work ;)
>
> > But here is one Point to make that the USA has,
> > is we Have not try to permanently occupy another county
>
> Hawaii. The Iroquois Confederation. The second one is arguable, but the
> first was internationally recognised at the time.
Hmm Russia occupied Hungary, East Germany, Poland, Czechslovakia,
Afghanistan, Finland (sort of), Bulgaria, Romania, Estonia, Latvia,
Lithuania, The Ukraine, etc.
Germany occupied Poland, France, Denmark, The Netherlands, Belgium,
Czechoslovakia, Austria, etc.
France occupied Spain, Italy, As much of Germany as it could, Poland
(poor Poland) and whatever else Napoleon could find
Britain occupied pretty much the whole world at one time or another.
America occupied Hawaii? One of these things is not like the other...
Bruce Sinclair
>America occupied Hawaii? One of these things is not like the other...
.. unless you said it was of course ... which you did. Occupy is occupy. You
could add iraq to the list ... panama, grenada ... :)
Bruce
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to
think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone´s fault.
If it was Us, what did that make Me ? After all, I´m one of Us. I must be.
I´ve certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No-one ever thinks
of themselves as one of Them. We´re always one of Us. It´s Them that do
the bad things. <=> Terry Pratchett. Jingo.
E. C. Lee
> afro...@yahoo.com (E. C. Lee) wrote in message news:<f0cfed5b.03100...@posting.google.com>...
> > lechi...@hotmail.com (melektaus) wrote in message news:<16e253af.03100...@posting.google.com>...
> > > Italian-American food is different from Italian. Another example of how
> > > influences from one culture get changed in another.
> > >
> > > I remember coming back from Europe and being taken to dinner at Miceli's,
> > > an old line Italo-American restaurant in Hollywood that is one of the very
> > > few survivors from the golden age of Hollywood Blvd. in the 30s and 40s
> > > (the only other one being Musso and Franks, erstwhile hangout of Faulkner,
> > > Fitzgerald, etc. ) which survived the later decline of the neighborhood.
> > > Being used to Italian cuisine as it was made in Italy, I couldn't get
> > > used to it. Then again L.A. never was a city for Italian food like the
> > > northeastern cities or SF.
> > >
> > Chicago has a reasonable Italian population, though many Italians have
> > moved to the suburbs. The orignial Italian neighborhood was ripped up
> > for urban progress, though some of the restaurants are still there.
>
> Pre-WWII LA's "Little Italy" was where Chinatown is now (a pattern repeated
> in NYC decades later).
I was in LA's Chinatown, and saw no trace of a Little Italy. Either I
didn't look closely enough or they really destroyed it.
The closest thing to an Italian neighborhood in L.A.
> during my lifetime would have been Los Feliz, though that never was a
> "Little Italy" in the sense of northeastern and midwestern cities or SF.
> There are a few old line Italo-American restaurants along North Vermont and
> along Hillhurst.
>
> > None of them do that much for me, though they are popular with others.
> >
> > I think that a lot of Italian American restaurants might have adapted
> > to American tastes. They use too much sauce for my liking and the
> > pasta tends to be overcooked (I've known Americans who've been to
> > Italy and complained about the lack of sauce and the hard spaghetti!)
>
> Like my mother complaining after going to Tuscan and Ligurian restaurants
> here with a high degree of authenticity!
>
LOL!
> > But I think the biggest problem might be in ingredients. A really
> > conscientious restaurant (and a really expensive one!) will go out of
> > its way to get the best ingredients, but most will get the least
> > expensive they can get away with using.
>
> This may be part of the reason why North African restaurants tend to be
> so expensive in the US
>
I love Moroccan food and cook it as often as I can. There's a
wonderful Moroccan cook here who's had several restaurants. Not too
expensive at first, but I think now he's opened an upscale spot, a bit
too pricey for me to frequent. Nearby there's also a kosher Moroccan
place that's also quite good, but because of the cost of the kosher
meat is more expensive than one would expect. It's also packed
because it's one of the more interesting kosher restaurants. Never
found any North African restaurants in the US other than Moroccan.
I'd certainly like to.
Speaking of Italian food and ingredients, have you ever taken a look
at Mario Batelli's book "Babbo"? All the recipes are very easy, but
the ingredients are darned near impossible. The care and skill is
actually more in the shopping than the cooking, which IMHO makes a lot
of sense. But to achieve his standards would be extremely difficult
even with the very adaquate specialty markets to which I have access.
Beautiful book. Well written and nice photos. But for me, the stuff
of fantasy!
> I don't think a lot of the
> > consumers know the difference and are happy with what they get. OTH,
> > I've tried cookbooks specifically featuring Italian-American home
> > cooking and have come up with some wonderful results.
>
> It's comfort food for me, as I grew up with it - but it's not the real
> thing
>
Ummm, I grew up with Franco-American out of a can. After that
ANYTHING should taste good! ;-)
> > You definitely have to look at Italian-American cooking as a separate
> > cuisine from real Italian. And it can be very good. It's just
> > different. One of my favorite dishes actually originates in
> > Chicago.It's a heavily garliced chicken cooked in olive oil with white
> > wine and potatoes (potatoes very similar to those in one of my
> > favorite Southern Italian dishes, Chicken Basilicata, I believe it's
> > called--though I might have to check). This local dish is called
> > Chicken Vesuvio (excuse my spelling if I have it wrong--I'm a terrible
> > speller). I don't know if it's fame has spread to the rest of the
> > country.
>
> I thought it originated in SF - anyways it is common in California
>
LOL! I wonder if every city claims it as their own? It is delicious,
though!
> > > Many so-called "Spanish" restaurants in the US that I've been to have
> > > Cuban dishes on the menu - I've only been to one good Spanish
> > > restaurant in the US, the no longer extant La Masia in Beverly Hills.
> > >
> > > No big surprise that the only foreign cuisines common in Argentina
> > > are Spanish and Italian. It is surprising that there are so few
> > > Central and Eastern European or Middle Eastern restaurants there, though.
> > >
> > In Argentina? I've never been there, so I don't know. But I do know
> > that we've plenty of Central European, Eastern European and Middle
> > Eastern restaurants where I am now!
>
> It's interesting that Argentina was also a country of European immigrants
> like the US,
Actually, now that you mention it, I even have some distant cousins
who live there.
yet the cuisines of many of their native countries got left
> behind. The only alternatives to la parrillada, the only foreign cuisines
> easily available are Spanish and Italian. Again, this is no surprise
> considering the ancestry of most Argentines coming from Spain and/or Italy.
> But considering the number of Germans, Slavs, Jews, Greeks,Arabs,
> Portuguese, etc. who emigrated to Buenos Aires in the late 19th and early
> 20th centuries, those cuisines are very rare in BA and nonexistent
> elsewhere
>
> As this is going to SHWI, perhaps make a WI out of this: WI more emigrants'
> cuisines in Argentina survived? Or another WI: alternate cuisines that were
> "Americanized"
Well, in Argentina it would definitely be meat oriented. You have the
empanada, so you don't actually need the dumpling. I wonder about
desserts though? The only ones I can recall involved cheese and guava
paste. Hmmmm. Wonder if someone can turn that into a pastry? ;-)
I have something interesting for you to imagine. At one of the local
Japanese restaurants there were a lot of Mexican workers. For lunch
they could have whatever they wanted, but they chose to take the
available ingredients and turn them into something recognizeably
Mexican. I'm sure there are other interesting examples like this
elsewhere. This unusual mixing of different cultures makes an
interesting "what if." Of course, isn't this what fusion cooking is
all about?
If you really want to turn it into a "what if history" thing, you
could probably take a scenario where one place would take over another
as it didn't in real time. It would change cuisine just as it would
change everything else!
BTW, looking at all the different groups included on this thread (and
hopefully not objecting to it) I'd love to see a post that somehow
could make all of them on topic at once. Now THAT would be a
challenge! ;-)
JMHO,
Eve
Fabian
"John Lamont" <mlem...@home.com> wrote in message
> Britain occupied pretty much the whole world at one time or another.
>
> America occupied Hawaii? One of these things is not like the other...
Yes, you're right. They are different. America is still occupying
Hawai'i.
--
Ц§вmв Янс KлсoЯн®
<TheBeef...@eatme.org> wrote:
> France actively raped all its colonies.
How do you feel about the behaviour of the British and Spanish?
Fabian
"Christians for Cheeseburgers." <TheBeef...@eatme.org> wrote in
message news:vyygb.59950
> France actively raped all its colonies...
If we are going to talk about colonies (ie areas that were never
internationally recognised as nations prior to colonisation), better
highlight the way the USA raped and colonised, um, the entirety of North
America between certain latitudes. And, um, they never granted
independance to them either.