traditional women's clothing
william paul ireland
Hi..
What is the origin of the tall, flat-topped Welsh Woman's hat?
Does anyone know where I could get a pattern for a Cockle hat?
I am told that the traditional woman's costume varies from region
to region and also within age categories. But this is not reflected in
the pages on the Welsh woman's traditional costume. I'm trying to sort
these things out, and going to the source(s) seems the very best way.
One more thing: The colours of the shawl. Some say RED Flannel (does
that mean WOOL flannel?) Some say paisley, (but whatcolour paisley)
And I've heard houndstooth patterns in red/black/white. I've seen dolls
from Wales that completely break the traditional colours and patterns.
Since I was in the middle of this controversy while making a
traditional costume, I am seeking some really accurate (as opposed to
Haute Coutoure or ready-to-wear designer) answers.
Appreciate the help and the information.
Many thanks.
Sandra Jones Ireland
ire...@isn.net
Dafydd Price Jones
Mae Sandra Jones Ireland yn gofyn:
> What is the origin of the tall, flat-topped Welsh Woman's hat?
There is no traditional Welsh costume.
The tall hat was part of everyday wear for women during the 17th and
18th centuries. However, the so-called "traditional" Welsh costume
(red cloak worn over petticoat and bedgown, with Mother Goose hat)
is nothing more than something invented in order to amuse tourists.
>Does anyone know where I could get a pattern for a Cockle hat?
No, sorry. Anyone else?
--
| Dafydd Price Jones
E-bost: dafy...@dafyddpj.demon.co.uk
Fel het am byth!|
ii...@msu.oscs.montana.edu
In article <6IohEIAs...@dafyddpj.demon.co.uk>, Dafydd Price Jones <dafy...@dafyddpj.demon.co.uk> writes:
>Mae Sandra Jones Ireland yn gofyn:
>> What is the origin of the tall, flat-topped Welsh Woman's hat?
>
>There is no traditional Welsh costume.
>
>The tall hat was part of everyday wear for women during the 17th and
>18th centuries. However, the so-called "traditional" Welsh costume
>(red cloak worn over petticoat and bedgown, with Mother Goose hat)
>is nothing more than something invented in order to amuse tourists.
>
after the small Baptist chapel near Harlech (which I visited, and have many
ancestors buried there). I believe it was painted around the turn of the
century. Of the eight people shown in the pews there are four women, all
wearing the tall black hat with white ruffled cap underneath. One has a red
cape, two have maroon capes, and one has a paisley shawl (my great, great
grandmother's, I might add, who was wife of the vicar). I dont' see any
petticoats or bedgowns, just the black skirts most women wear in those days.
Are you telling me that wasn't typical wear -- that they were essentially
"costumed" for the painting? Real people posed for this painting -- my great
aunt wrote their names on the back.
Dafydd Price Jones
Mae ii...@Msu.oscs.montana.edu yn sgrifennu:
>Curious. I have a commercial copy of a water color painting called "Salem" ,
>after the small Baptist chapel near Harlech (which I visited, and have many
>ancestors buried there). I believe it was painted around the turn of the
>century. Of the eight people shown in the pews there are four women, all
>wearing the tall black hat with white ruffled cap underneath. One has a red
>cape, two have maroon capes, and one has a paisley shawl (my great, great
>grandmother's, I might add, who was wife of the vicar). I dont' see any
>petticoats or bedgowns, just the black skirts most women wear in those days.
>Are you telling me that wasn't typical wear -- that they were essentially
>"costumed" for the painting?
Er, yes.
Here's a rather relevant quote for you about "Salem" from The Oxford
Companion to Literature:
"Sian Owen of Ty'n-y-fawnog, who posed for the painter (Curnow
Vosper), is said to have been notoriously vain, and that is why a devil's
face is discernible in the folds of her magnificent shawl. The painter,
however, denied that the effect was deliberate, and always maintained
that the shawl had been borrowed from the wife of the vicar of
Harlech".
So that lady was your great-great grandmother.
--
| Dafydd Price Jones
E-bost: dafy...@dafyddpj.demon.co.uk
Llangolledig Gyfeiliorn am byth!|
ii...@msu.oscs.montana.edu
Owen. Are you implying, then, that the shawl might not have belonged to Mrs.
Davies, but to Sian Owen? I'm not clear on this.
Also, are you saying that the womean's hats are not what they would have worn
at the time the painting was done, but rather what they wore a century earlier?
Thanks for the interesting info!
Dafydd Price Jones
Mae ii...@Msu.oscs.montana.edu yn sgrifennu:
>My great-great grandmother was Mrs. Davies, the wife of the vicar, not Sian
>Owen.
That's what I meant. I'm sorry, my wording wasn't very clear. I should
have been more careful, particularly since they appear to have been two
very different ladies!
> Are you implying, then, that the shawl might not have belonged to Mrs.
>Davies, but to Sian Owen? I'm not clear on this.
No. I'd guess that it probably did belong to Mrs. Davies. Vosper, the
artist, would probably have had no reason to lie about that.
The idea of the devil appearing the shawl could have started with some
gossip in Welsh among the village folk, such as,
"Oh, Mrs. Jones bach, that Sian Owen's a vain hussy, don't you think?"
"Oh, you're right there, Bessie Blackhead."
"You know, I'd swear that I can see the Gw+r Drwg (Old Nick)
himself buried in that shawl. Look."
"Oh, yes, come to think of it. It does look a bit like him, doesn't it?
I've always said no good will become of her. Look, Bessie, here's
Katie Williams. Let's see if she can see the devil in the shawl."
When the gossip had gone round the village, and they were all
convinced that they'd seen the devil, they would never believe that the
shawl actually belonged to the vicar's wife.
That's just a possibility. I haven't got a copy of the picture myself. Can
you see anything devil-like in the shawl?
>
>Also, are you saying that the womean's hats are not what they would have worn
>at the time the painting was done, but rather what they wore a century earlier?
I'm fairly sure that such hats were hardly ever worn around 1900.
In 1836 Lady Llanover, a romantic English lady who became well-
known as a fervent Welsh nationalist and pan-Kelticist, published an
essay on the 'preservation of the Welsh language and national costumes
of Wales'. Her prime purpose was to consolidate and expand the
Welsh woollen industry and to spurn all foreign cottons and similar light
materials. She painted water-colours of the costumes of country
women whom she saw in different parts of SouthWales and offered
prizes at eisteddfodau for 'national checks and stripes' and even for
beaver hats. She turned farm servants' working clothes into a conscious
- many would say self-conscious - national costume. There is no
evidence for believing that the combination of bedgown, petticoat and
tall beaver hat was at any time a Welsh national costume.
The old country dress is re-created as a fancy dress for special
occasions. And recreated from the imaginary creations of postcard and
souvenir merchants, the sort of thing possible only in a society that has
lost its real roots.
(Source for last two paragraphs: "Tradition & Folk Life" (1972) by
Iorwerth C. Peate, the founder and first curator of the Welsh Folk
Museum.)
(Bessie Blackhead is not related to Elizabeth Schwarzkopf!)
--
| Dafydd Price Jones
Linda K. Sherman
Dafydd Price Jones wrote:
>
>
> That's just a possibility. I haven't got a copy of the picture myself. Can
> you see anything devil-like in the shawl?
Interestingly enough, there's a picture of "Salem" on the p.10 of the
March issue of Y Drych, which possibly has not yet landed on U.K.
doorsteps.
It's not possible tell much from a newsprint reproduction but there is
obviously enough teeny-tiny detail in the pattern of the shawl that you
could probably see just about anything you wanted to in it if you
crossed your eyes long enough.
The accompanying article says that the National Eisteddfod is looking
for a new work of art that better reflects the spirit of modern Wales. I
can see why.
Lin
--
Linda K. Sherman <lins...@concentric.net>
Views expressed are rarely those of the author.
Dafydd Price Jones
Mae Lin Sherman yn sgrifennu:
Re Salem painting:
>The accompanying article says that the National Eisteddfod is looking
>for a new work of art that better reflects the spirit of modern Wales. I
>can see why.
A few years ago, I saw a painting in the Arts and Crafts tent at the
National Eisteddfod, which was a caricature of "Salem". Instead of
Sian Owen, it had the then Minister of State for Wales, Peter Walker,
in tall hat, grinning at all and sundry. It reflected the spirit of Wales
much more than the original ever did, in my not so humble opinion
8-)%. But, then, I'm a sucker for satire.
william paul ireland
Traditional Welsh Women's clothing/costumes (message written by Sandra)
Re: the "SALEM" Painting: For the life me, I have yet to find the
supposed "image of the devil" on the shawl in that painting, even with my
eyes crossed, with magnifying glasses, even from seeing a larger
reproduction of that painting. For me, this is a mystery..
So does anyone have any ideas for a "new" Welsh icon? ;-).
(It is lots of fun to talk about this...I would miss it quite frankly.)
Sandra Jones Ireland
william paul ireland
traditional Welsh Women's costumes/clothing--
comment from Sandra
---re: the reprint of Salem in March Y Drych..
For the life of me, even with my eyes closed, and using a magnifying
glass AND having seen a larger copy of this...Where is the supposed face
of the devil on the shawl?
Anyone got any ideas for a new "Welsh" icon? ;-)!
Sandra Jones Ireland
ii...@msu.oscs.montana.edu
In article <MhN8eJAn...@dafyddpj.demon.co.uk>, Dafydd Price Jones <dafy...@dafyddpj.demon.co.uk> writes:
>That's just a possibility. I haven't got a copy of the picture myself. Can
>you see anything devil-like in the shawl?
Not really -- certainly not in the "folds". In the white area of the shawl
above her breast I suppose one could stretch the design to look like a cartoon
outline of a "devil", but that's pushing it.
Well, there really isn't any recognized "national costume" for Ireland,
England, Canada or the U.S. either, for that matter. One thinks of the Royal
Canadian Mounties, or the Beefeaters or the leprechaun or the colonial dress of
the American Revolution (or Davy Crocket and his coonskin cap!), but none of
those are national costumes per se.
Illtud Daniel
Linda K. Sherman <lins...@concentric.net> wrote:
>It's not possible tell much from a newsprint reproduction but there is
>obviously enough teeny-tiny detail in the pattern of the shawl that you
>could probably see just about anything you wanted to in it if you
>crossed your eyes long enough.
Erm, no magnifying glass required. The Devil's not in the pattern of the
shawl, but large in the folds. It's a profile of the Devil's face looking
to the right in the folds around her elbow and beneath. (all from memory,
but you _should_ be able to see it easily)
Having said that, it's not a striking simulacrum - don't expect horns
and a trident.
--
Illtud Daniel ida...@jesus.ox.ac.uk
-see Twin Town- -Buy Apollo 440-