Bigots Target
Bill Stuart
References: <3fa7o0$i...@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3f4pau$7...@access2.digex.net> <D21y1...@blythe.org> <3ep5cr$2...@access2.digex.net> <D2Cy0...@freenet.carleton.ca>
Organization: The National Capital FreeNet
In a previous posting, Curt (cu...@tampico.cso.uiuc.edu) writes:
> ah...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Bill Stuart) writes:
>>>
>>> No it needn't. Do we also treat them for the depression caused simply by
>>> being in prison? So that they are cheerful, and prison no longer bothers
>>> them? If they don't have the money to continue, then it stops. Same as
>>> if a person not in prison was doing it.
>
>> We do treat them for the depression caused by being in prison.
>>Otherwise, we treat them and the other inmates when depression becomes
>>anger and anger becomes fighting.
>
> Leave 'em in their cells 24 hours a day and there'll be damn
> little fighting.
Then they will be hundreds of times worse when they come out.
> In a m-f transsexual, it is utterly imperative to continue with
>>the hormone treatments after a certain time.
>
> Guess they oughtta make damn certain they don't get sent to
> the shitter, then, huh?
That's irrelevant. If they are sent to jail, the treatment should
continue.
> When the male organs stop
>>releasing testosterone, and the supply of female hormones is stopped,
>>severe body and mental damage will occur.
>
> Above and beyond the mental damage that got 'em in the slammer
> in the first place, I assume.
Most people in Jail are not mentally damaged.
>> Some of the things that can happen when you stop hormones suddenly
>>are : extreme weight change, mood swings, osteroperosis (rare), blood
>>clotting inside the body, DIABETES (there is a relationship between
>>hormones and sugar levels) headaches, heart palpitations, acne, thickening
>>of the heart (rare), liver damage, and a host of smaller maladies.
>> If the person in question is a genetic transsexual (XXXY) who is
>>becoming female, then it IS a question of life and death for that person.
>
> In that case, they should get the treatment. Wouldn't want
> 'em to croak before they finish their sentence.
No, we wouldn't.
>>>> Would you support money going towards gym equipment for the men to
>>>> build up their pecs?
>>>
>>> No. That isn't necessary for life or health either.
>
>> It is very important for the health and life of everyone in the
>>prison system that the prisoners be kept in fairly good spirits. If
>>conditions in the prison get very bad, they will riot.
>
> Not if we'd stop letting them OUT of their fucking cells.
Then they would go nuts.
>>> Female hormones are not "necessary medical treatment". Especially not
>>> in a man. If he wants to be a woman, and can't afford the treatment,
>>> let him wait until he's free, and can afford it.
>
>> They are necessary for transsexuals. Would you like being turned
>>into a woman against your will?
>
> He was a man to start with; that's a little different than us
Prove that a transsexual began life as a man. There is no
definition of what a man is or is not. The simplest definition is "The
ones with the penises are male". Does that mean men who fought in WW2 and
got shot in the groin are no longer men? What about males with
non-functional penises? What about androgenital psudeohermaphrodites? (XX
chromosome people born with a penis or a partial penis)?
If we define a man as a person with XY chromosomes, what about men
with XXY chromosomes? They look and act as male as any XY male, there is
usually no way to tell without a gene scan.
What is it about men that makes them men? Why are you not a
transsexual? When you have answered both questions, then you are qualified
to say what a man is and is not.
> trying to change what God's made us. Don't get me wrong, I
> really don't care if that's what somebody wants; in fact, as
> you've probably already gathered, I really don't care at all.
> But let's not start twisting things like you did with that
> last sentence.
My last sentence can't get much more twisted than reality already
is.
> Incidentally, do you work in the prison system, or with
> transexuals, or both?
Well, i do some work with the TG community, that's about it.
--
"When once creates phantoms for oneself, one puts vampires into the world,
and one must nourish these children of a voluntary nightmare with one's
blood, one's life, one's intellegence, and one's reason, without ever
satisfying them." -Eliphas Levi
Mark G.
: >>the hormone treatments after a certain time.
: >
: > Guess they oughtta make damn certain they don't get sent to
: > the shitter, then, huh?
Yeah, and if you are a diabetic you won't get any insulin either. ;-)
--
==============================================================================
"He can't last. I tell you flatly, he can't last."
-Jackie Gleason on Elvis Presley
==============================================================================
Curt
>: > In a m-f transsexual, it is utterly imperative to continue with
>: >>the hormone treatments after a certain time.
>: >
>: > Guess they oughtta make damn certain they don't get sent to
>: > the shitter, then, huh?
>Yeah, and if you are a diabetic you won't get any insulin either. ;-)
Guess maybe THEY oughtta think twice before robbin' the old
Seven-Eleven, too, then, huh. Gee life's tough.
--
Curt Bolding
Master of Adventure, Dreadnought of Chicanery
Heir to the Western Dream cu...@tampico.cso.uiuc.edu
Curt
>>>>
>> Leave 'em in their cells 24 hours a day and there'll be damn
>> little fighting.
> Then they will be hundreds of times worse when they come out.
Then they can pay for their own god damn counselling, can't they? And
I guarantee you when they come out they'll try a helluva lot harder to
make sure they don't go back.
>> In a m-f transsexual, it is utterly imperative to continue with
>>>the hormone treatments after a certain time.
>>
>> Guess they oughtta make damn certain they don't get sent to
>> the shitter, then, huh?
> That's irrelevant. If they are sent to jail, the treatment should
>continue.
If it's a matter of life and death, I agree with you.
>
>> When the male organs stop
>>>releasing testosterone, and the supply of female hormones is stopped,
>>>severe body and mental damage will occur.
>>
>> Above and beyond the mental damage that got 'em in the slammer
>> in the first place, I assume.
> Most people in Jail are not mentally damaged.
The hell they're not. What do you think got them in there in the
first place. Maybe my definition of "mental damage" is different from
yours. Mine is that if you're so stupid, egotistical or addicted that
you do things to get you sent to jail, you've got brain damage.
>
>> In that case, they should get the treatment. Wouldn't want
>> 'em to croak before they finish their sentence.
> No, we wouldn't.
Nice for us to be able to agree on SOMETHING, isn't it?
>>> It is very important for the health and life of everyone in the
>>>prison system that the prisoners be kept in fairly good spirits. If
>>>conditions in the prison get very bad, they will riot.
>>
>> Not if we'd stop letting them OUT of their fucking cells.
> Then they would go nuts.
Too fucking bad. They'll be damn sure to work a lot harder not to get
sent back. If you really care, then let's start caning and cutting
and tattooing them and we can just kick their asses right back out on
the street, since you want them out here with you so much.
>>>> Female hormones are not "necessary medical treatment". Especially not
>>>> in a man. If he wants to be a woman, and can't afford the treatment,
>>>> let him wait until he's free, and can afford it.
>>
>>> They are necessary for transsexuals. Would you like being turned
>>>into a woman against your will?
>>
>> He was a man to start with; that's a little different than us
> Prove that a transsexual began life as a man. There is no
>definition of what a man is or is not. The simplest definition is "The
>ones with the penises are male". Does that mean men who fought in WW2 and
>got shot in the groin are no longer men? What about males with
>non-functional penises? What about androgenital psudeohermaphrodites? (XX
>chromosome people born with a penis or a partial penis)?
> If we define a man as a person with XY chromosomes, what about men
>with XXY chromosomes? They look and act as male as any XY male, there is
>usually no way to tell without a gene scan.
My response to this is: WHO CARES? Now we're getting into educated
idiot speak. Put the textbook down and get some common sense. How
smart you are doesn't mean SHIT to a home invader or an armed robber.
And it SURE as hell doesn't impress me.
> What is it about men that makes them men? Why are you not a
>transsexual? When you have answered both questions, then you are qualified
>to say what a man is and is not.
Answer #1: Men comport themselves as men. The rest are merely male
creatures pretending to be men. If this isn't clear, go
over to soc.men and I'll explain it. This in a cop shop.
Answer #2: Because I was born a man, and that's what I am.
>> Incidentally, do you work in the prison system, or with
>> transexuals, or both?
> Well, i do some work with the TG community, that's about it.
Believe it or not, I admire that you can do that. But don't let your
sympathies toward this particular person's plight make you forget
that he....or IT, or whatever....is in prison for committing a crime
against you and your fellow citizens.
Andrea Lynn Leistra
Curt <cu...@tampico.cso.uiuc.edu> wrote:
>ma...@anshar.shadow.net (Mark G.) writes:
>
>>: > In a m-f transsexual, it is utterly imperative to continue with
>>: >>the hormone treatments after a certain time.
>>: >
>>: > Guess they oughtta make damn certain they don't get sent to
>>: > the shitter, then, huh?
>
>>Yeah, and if you are a diabetic you won't get any insulin either. ;-)
>
> Guess maybe THEY oughtta think twice before robbin' the old
> Seven-Eleven, too, then, huh. Gee life's tough.
>
insulin, as you seem to advocate, is pure and simple discrimination; the
death penalty for any crime if you have the misfortune to have diabetes.
Andrea
Andrea Lynn Leistra
Curt <cu...@tampico.cso.uiuc.edu> wrote:
>ah...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Bill Stuart) writes:
>>>>>
>>> Leave 'em in their cells 24 hours a day and there'll be damn
>>> little fighting.
>
>> Then they will be hundreds of times worse when they come out.
>
>Then they can pay for their own god damn counselling, can't they? And
>I guarantee you when they come out they'll try a helluva lot harder to
>make sure they don't go back.
You just don't get it...they will be more deranged and angry when they
come out than when they go in; this will foster *more* crime. It's not a
matter of making a rational decision that prison is hell, but one of
having been through hell and emerging much worsened by the experience.
...
>>>
>>> Not if we'd stop letting them OUT of their fucking cells.
>
>> Then they would go nuts.
>
>
>Too fucking bad. They'll be damn sure to work a lot harder not to get
>sent back. If you really care, then let's start caning and cutting
>and tattooing them and we can just kick their asses right back out on
>the street, since you want them out here with you so much.
See above.
>>>>> Female hormones are not "necessary medical treatment". Especially not
>>>>> in a man. If he wants to be a woman, and can't afford the treatment,
>>>>> let him wait until he's free, and can afford it.
>>>
>>>> They are necessary for transsexuals. Would you like being turned
>>>>into a woman against your will?
>>>
>>> He was a man to start with; that's a little different than us
>
>> Prove that a transsexual began life as a man. There is no
>>definition of what a man is or is not. The simplest definition is "The
>>ones with the penises are male". Does that mean men who fought in WW2 and
>>got shot in the groin are no longer men? What about males with
>>non-functional penises? What about androgenital psudeohermaphrodites? (XX
>>chromosome people born with a penis or a partial penis)?
>> If we define a man as a person with XY chromosomes, what about men
>>with XXY chromosomes? They look and act as male as any XY male, there is
>>usually no way to tell without a gene scan.
>
>
>My response to this is: WHO CARES? Now we're getting into educated
>idiot speak. Put the textbook down and get some common sense. How
>smart you are doesn't mean SHIT to a home invader or an armed robber.
>And it SURE as hell doesn't impress me.
>
This isn't a matter of intelligence; it is a matter of individuals that
feel they are women being forced to not be women, against their will,
because they committed a crime; something that non-TG individuals do not
have to do.
>> What is it about men that makes them men? Why are you not a
>>transsexual? When you have answered both questions, then you are qualified
>>to say what a man is and is not.
>
>Answer #1: Men comport themselves as men. The rest are merely male
> creatures pretending to be men. If this isn't clear, go
> over to soc.men and I'll explain it. This in a cop shop.
>
>Answer #2: Because I was born a man, and that's what I am.
>
How very circular.
Andrea
Bill Stuart
Organization: The National Capital FreeNet
In a previous posting, Keith F. Lynch (k...@access.digex.net) writes:
> In article <D2Cy0...@freenet.carleton.ca>,
> Bill Stuart <ah...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote:
>> We do treat them for the depression caused by being in prison.
>
> I thought prison was supposed to be unpleasant. If a prisoner is unhappy
> about being in prison, that's a treatable illness? They should be
> given drugs until they are perfectly satisfied and pleased with their
> condition?
Yes, they usually are. A depressed inmate might become suicidal. A
suicidal inmate has nothing to lose by killing a guard. Guards carry guns.
Depression + guns = a very bad situation.
An inmate who is not depressed will actively look forward to the
day when he/she is released and will be a mich nicer prisoner.
>> Otherwise, we treat them and the other inmates when depression becomes
>> anger and anger becomes fighting.
>
> "Treat" them? Anger and fighting are also treatable illnesses?
When they are caused by depression and anger, yes.
>> In a m-f transsexual, it is utterly imperative to continue with the
>> hormone treatments after a certain time. When the male organs stop
>> releasing testosterone, and the supply of female hormones is stopped,
>> severe body and mental damage will occur.
>
> No. Women after menopause do fine with neither male or female sex
> hormones. So do men who are castrated. (Their life expectancy is the
> same as anyone else's.)
You really don't know much about this, do you? A male who is
castrated will suffer a great deal of problems, such as sugar uptake,
muscle deterioration, potassium imbalances, and a host of other problems.
The life expectancy of someone not getting hormones is significantly
reduced. Unics rarely lived past 30.
> Anyhow, if a male prisoner stops taking female hormones, their own male
> hormones will resume, unless they've had themselves castrated.
Their own male hormones MIGHT resume. They MIGHT kick out 5 times
as much androgen as a typical male would make, causing a heart attack.
They MIGHT kick out only a certain range of androgens and cause all sorts
of weird crap. They WILL experience incredible mood swings and surges in
irrational behavior right after stopping the hormones.
>> Hormones are extremely important in the body functions.
>
> *Sex* hormones are not essential to life. They are only essential for
> proper sexual functioning.
*Sex* hormones do not exist. They are hormones that are used in
ALL aspects of life. Without "male" sex hormones, a woman's heart would
not beat. Without "Female" hormones, men would be brain dead.
Mark G.
: Guess maybe THEY oughtta think twice before robbin' the old
: Seven-Eleven, too, then, huh. Gee life's tough.
Hell, why not just execute all detainees on the spot? I mean, that old
'innocent until proven guilty' stuff is just for those mamby-pampy
wusses anyway. And after they are proven guilty why not just shoot them
and dump them in a land-fill? You like that Curt? ;-)
Gerry Scott-Moore
fat discussion over whether transexuals ought to be given a buck a day in
medication? These important "economic issues"?
Why aren't these guys talking abaaout obscenely low grazing fees? Or
subsidies to agri-business to NOT grow crops, or the millions spent to shoot
coyotes for big cattle farmers--free! Or all those wonderful
"tax-breaks" for businesses--which incidentally wind up being paid by the
"middle class" tax-payer. We're paying their taxes for them.
But what are the politicians talking about, encouraging discussion
about? 45 TS's criminals and their medication. They guys really work
hard for the people that bought and paid for them--corporations and the
lobbyists (aka "bagmen") that shuttle the money back and forth.
There's a cozy place in hell for these parasites...
--
---------------------------------------------------
| Gerry | Samba salvara' |
| ----- | o mundo! |
| g...@netcom.com | Aliso Viejo, California |
---------------------------------------------------
Curt
>: >Yeah, and if you are a diabetic you won't get any insulin either. ;-)
>: Guess maybe THEY oughtta think twice before robbin' the old
>: Seven-Eleven, too, then, huh. Gee life's tough.
>Hell, why not just execute all detainees on the spot? I mean, that old
>'innocent until proven guilty' stuff is just for those mamby-pampy
>wusses anyway. And after they are proven guilty why not just shoot them
>and dump them in a land-fill? You like that Curt? ;-)
I have t'tell ya, son, you're not big enough to get under my
skin. I've been needled by experts, and you're not even
close. Keep up with the comments though-you show your own
stupidity and ineffectiveness better than I EVER could.
By the way, your sig quotes are stupid.
>--
>==============================================================================
>"He can't last. I tell you flatly, he can't last."
> -Jackie Gleason on Elvis Presley
>==============================================================================
Joan Tine
: ma...@anshar.shadow.net (Mark G.) writes:
: >: > In a m-f transsexual, it is utterly imperative to continue with
: >: >>the hormone treatments after a certain time.
: >: >
: >: > Guess they oughtta make damn certain they don't get sent to
: >: > the shitter, then, huh?
: >Yeah, and if you are a diabetic you won't get any insulin either. ;-)
: Guess maybe THEY oughtta think twice before robbin' the old
: Seven-Eleven, too, then, huh. Gee life's tough.
So you demonstrate. How can we help you feel better? You began this
campaign to get attention, but you're no happier for it. What kind
of attention would make you feel calmer and happier? Is it sex
with someone with a penis which you seek? Or just a flirtation?
Or something more violent? (We have our own contingent of rough
trade, don't be shy. And don't be ashamed and defensive, either.
I sympathize with your desire for hot, firey screaming emotion. It
isn't hardly sex unless it's crazy, and I think you're on to
something here. Just don't settle for harsh words. Getting
talked off ain't hardly as much fun as the real thing:).
: --
: Curt Bolding
: Master of Adventure, Dreadnought of Chicanery
: Heir to the Western Dream cu...@tampico.cso.uiuc.edu
Indeed. But something is missing. Your self-characterization
omits a term for one who floods newsgroups seeking conflict, but
whose toolbox in this task is limited to oversimplification and
the kind of scorn which is replayed by children of irresponsible
parents who refused to make time for them.
Is there anything material we can do to help you? And if not,
why are you here? If you would be up front about what you want,
we would have a much greater chance of providing it for you.
Joan
(My own special areas are latex, leather, lashing, alliteration,
and any practices employing roast garlic.)
--
--
Wheel & Peditate, Attys at Law
Priscilla Asagiri Fashions in Fiberglass
Bitten Batten Barton Burton and Powell, Luggage Makers
Joan Tine
: Then they can pay for their own god damn counselling, can't they? And
: I guarantee you when they come out they'll try a helluva lot harder to
: make sure they don't go back.
: The hell they're not. What do you think got them in there in the
: first place. Maybe my definition of "mental damage" is different from
: yours. Mine is that if you're so stupid, egotistical or addicted that
: you do things to get you sent to jail, you've got brain damage.
:
: Too fucking bad. They'll be damn sure to work a lot harder not to get
: sent back. If you really care, then let's start caning and cutting
: and tattooing them and we can just kick their asses right back out on
: the street, since you want them out here with you so much.
Curt, you're showcasing your hurt. I'm sorry you've been hurt,
and I'm sorry you can't find any way of coming to terms with it,
but trying to pass it on won't make you hurt less. It will only
create more people who hurt in just the same way you do, and who
are just as likely to adopt the same maladaptive ways of coping...
it's a cycle which can only be broken by thought and conscious
choice...but it requires you face yourself, not propagandize and
build fantasies based on action movies.
: My response to this is: WHO CARES? Now we're getting into educated
: idiot speak. Put the textbook down and get some common sense. How
: smart you are doesn't mean SHIT to a home invader or an armed robber.
: And it SURE as hell doesn't impress me.
No one is really attempting to impress you. Some desire to oppress
you, just as you seek to oppress them, and for the same reasons:
the memory of unjust pains received. The rest of us would like to
see you stop hurting and raging denial of those things in yourself
which are most painfully obvious. We would like to see you stop
hurting for no particular reason other than that the world works
better that way.
: Answer #1: Men comport themselves as men. The rest are merely male
: creatures pretending to be men. If this isn't clear, go
: over to soc.men and I'll explain it. This in a cop shop.
This is a fear shop. You don't have to buy any. You certainly
don't _need_ any more. If you feel most comfortable in "heavily male"
surroundings, this is good for you to recognize. Just cultivate
relaxation and openness, so when that special man comes along,
you won't be so tense and self-involved that you miss him.
: Answer #2: Because I was born a man, and that's what I am.
You are confusing a verb with a noun. What you are _doing_
is a matter of choice and style, and it's still a poor substitute
for political and aesthetic philosophy. You are a human being,
a complete universe on two feet: you should have more respect for
yourself than to get your philosophy from a vending machine.
: >> Incidentally, do you work in the prison system, or with
: >> transexuals, or both?
: > Well, i do some work with the TG community, that's about it.
:
: Believe it or not, I admire that you can do that. But don't let your
: sympathies toward this particular person's plight make you forget
: that he....or IT, or whatever....is in prison for committing a crime
: against you and your fellow citizens.
For which judgement has been rendered, and you are not privileged
to participate in the process. Kindly stop attempting to usurp
a role you aren't qualified for by any quality other than anger.
Your anger is best used to motivate you to heal yourself and
complete your education. Just learning how to avoid whipping
yourself into a frenzy over words would be a worthy project which
would add years of youth and joy to your body's span.
: Curt Bolding
: Master of Adventure, Dreadnought of Chicanery
: Heir to the Western Dream cu...@tampico.cso.uiuc.edu
Parse the word: vainglorious.
Joan
Joan Tine
: I really don't have much more time to waste on you.
Getting ready to find easier people to amaze and impress, Sugar?
: If you need
: to commisserate with someone, try Joan Tine. She's aching to
: breast-feed someone, and you sound like the best candidate. I
: just keep spitting the nasty thing out.
Imagery: nursery. Mental age: 3-18 months? Underlying image/
assumption: that Baby is in a rightious snit and will remain so
until a teat comes along Baby _does_ like to nurse at. You
just write an absolute _book_ about yourself every time you
open that gob and spew, y'know? Somebody ought to get a grant
and study you. At the very least, somebody at Comedy Store
can use the findings....
Oral. Anal. Genital. I'd say you're about midway through stage
one. That makes you just about three decades behind schedule. This
explains why you keep this quest going...*I* keep waiting for you
to come and start snoring, but if you're still mid-Oral stage,
you probably don't know how the thing _works_ yet! Better be
careful, Curt, you'll give yourself a nasty rash and the other
officers are _sure_ to smell the Desitin (shudder).
But all these distractions aside, how do you justify witholding
prescribed medical treatment to transsexuals in prison? Or are
you backpedaling out of that one now?
Joan
--
--
wombat [altered < Austrialian native name] any of a family (Phascolo-
midae) of burrowing marsupials resembling small bears, found in
Australia, Tasmania, and several Pacific islands. (2'-4' long).
Roope J Lehto
: In Article <3fs106$m...@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>, cu...@tampico.cso.uiuc.edu (Curt)
: wrote:
: > I don't waste my time trying to convert people. How many of
: > your words I understand doesn't keep the peace. That's all
: > I'm interested in.
: So were the Gestapo and KGB. Peace through fear and intimidation is not
: true peace.
Hate to tell you this; Gestapo and KGB were not peace-keeping
organizations. They existed to control the enemies of the states that
created them. Normal law enforcement was still the province of local law
enforcement agencies.
: ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
: | M. Steiner | ____ Don't assume I'm straight. /\ |
: | ste...@best.com | \ / Don't assume I'm not. / \ |
: | | \/ ~~~~ |
: ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Roope J. Lehto
rjl...@kruuna.helsinki.fi
Curt
>Mike Steiner (ste...@best.com) wrote:
>: In Article <3fs106$m...@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>, cu...@tampico.cso.uiuc.edu (Curt)
>: wrote:
>: > I don't waste my time trying to convert people. How many of
>: > your words I understand doesn't keep the peace. That's all
>: > I'm interested in.
>: So were the Gestapo and KGB. Peace through fear and intimidation is not
>: true peace.
>Hate to tell you this; Gestapo and KGB were not peace-keeping
>organizations. They existed to control the enemies of the states that
>created them. Normal law enforcement was still the province of local law
>enforcement agencies.
He doesn't care. He just wants to tell me what a nasty man I
am. This is beyond the scope of difference of opinion.
--
Curt
>Curt (cu...@tampico.cso.uiuc.edu) wrote:
>: ste...@best.com (Mike Steiner) writes:
>: You don't know SHIT about me.
>: If all this horseshit makes you feel better, fine. I don't
>: care. I don't have time to waste on you any more. If you or
>: anybody else needs the last word, fine. I'll always let you
>: have it. The last ACTION, however, will always be mine.
>In the interest of closure, you asked how I arrested people in
>NSA. I did not.
You SAID you did, John. You said you had 300 arrests to your
credit.
>I'll respect your wish (you said it three times it must be true)
>to be let out of this torment
It's not torment. It's amusing. But it's also become
pointless.
>If you don't tell us what department you work for you have not
>one hair upon your Ass.
I DON'T have any hair on my ass. Go over to alt.personals.ads
if that's what you're looking for.
John.
--
Curt
>Curt (cu...@tampico.cso.uiuc.edu) wrote:
>But all these distractions aside, how do you justify witholding
>prescribed medical treatment to transsexuals in prison? Or are
>you backpedaling out of that one now?
>Joan
You mean "John", don't you? No wonder you keep whining about
this; you're a switch-hitter yourself. And again, once and
for all, I advocate medication necessary to prisoners' health
and continued existance. THAT'S IT.
--
Sammie L. Foss
cu...@tampico.cso.uiuc.edu (Curt) writes:
> You mean "John", don't you? No wonder you keep whining about
> this; you're a switch-hitter yourself.
eh eh eh he said switch-hitter eh eh eh
Sammie
Joan Tine
: You don't know SHIT about me.
: If all this horseshit makes you feel better, fine. I don't
: care. I don't have time to waste on you any more. If you or
: anybody else needs the last word, fine. I'll always let you
: have it. The last ACTION, however, will always be mine.
(No point in inserting the laughter of the multitudes here. There's
only one person on the net who isn't in on the joke.)
In the interest of closure, you asked how I arrested people in
NSA. I did not. _That_ was how I chose to put myself through
grad school after I returned to our golden shores, spread with
a marmalade of surfers, slurpees, lost pagers, and dog droppings,
hallowed land of my birth. Which brings us back to the point
that you don't _have_ to remain ignorant and still serve. On the
other hand, if you had some job skills, you might not panic so
easily, and you'd definately have a better perspective on how
people regard police...particularly police who don't understand
their job. (REMEMBER, CURT, DIRTY HARRY SEZ: "A Good man has
GOT to know his limitations."
I'll respect your wish (you said it three times it must be true)
to be let out of this torment, but in all fairness, I think one
more comment, in your own language, is warranted.
If you don't tell us what department you work for you have not
one hair upon your Ass. (Those who saw Frye & Laurie tonight will
please restrain themselves:). I wish to mail a transcript of your
views on enlightened social policy and the role of the police power
to the organs of social communication and control in your
municipality. Since you are the Brave Man, and have the Courage
of your Convictions, you can hardly object. The idea that you're
just a nasty-mouthed little boy who won't stand up for his opinions
is, I'm sure, as repugnant to you as it is aborrant to our image
of you, (cue the wind machine) as you have so painstakingly
constructed it.
So? Are you a Stand Up Guy, Curt?
Joan
<<plonk>>
Michael Zeleny
jo...@snugbug.cts.com (Joan Tine) asks Curt (cu...@tampico.cso.uiuc.edu)
about administering hormone injections to transsexual prisoners at
public expense:
> I realize people are dying and
>all that, but how does this give you the right to deny prisoners their
>medication?
Presumably, it is the same right that enables the corrections officers
to deny their charges their right to nose jobs and liposuction at the
taxpayers' expense. For that matter, if incarceration is to serve the
purposes of retributive justice, there is no reason to grant them such
privileges quite regardless of who is paying for them.
>Joan
>
>
>--
>--
>Wheel & Peditate, Attys at Law
>Priscilla Asagiri Fashions in Fiberglass
>Bitten Batten Barton Burton and Powell, Luggage Makers
cordially, don't
mikhail zel...@math.ucla.edu tread
writing from the disneyland of formal philosophy on
"Le cul des femmes est monotone comme l'esprit des hommes." me
Eris Esoteric
> You mean "John", don't you? No wonder you keep whining about
> this; you're a switch-hitter yourself. And again, once and
> for all, I advocate medication necessary to prisoners' health
> and continued existance. THAT'S IT.
> You SAID you did, John. You said you had 300 arrests to your
> credit.
> I DON'T have any hair on my ass. Go over to alt.personals.ads
> if that's what you're looking for.
>
> John.
Look, if you've got something interesting/useful to say, go ahead and say it.
If you just want to piss Joan off by using a name that she doesn't particularly
like, then learn how to use E-Mail. Either way, keep *your* personal problems
out of the public newsgroups. 'kay?
"...and when they come, to ethnically cleanse me,
will you speak out, will you defend me?"
-Pop Will Eat Itself, "Ich Bin Ein Auslander"
Mike Steiner
(Michael Zeleny) wrote:
>In article <1995Jan21.0...@snugbug.cts.com>
>jo...@snugbug.cts.com (Joan Tine) asks Curt (cu...@tampico.cso.uiuc.edu)
>about administering hormone injections to transsexual prisoners at
>public expense:
>
>> I realize people are dying and
>>all that, but how does this give you the right to deny prisoners their
>>medication?
>
>Presumably, it is the same right that enables the corrections officers
>to deny their charges their right to nose jobs and liposuction at the
>taxpayers' expense. For that matter, if incarceration is to serve the
>purposes of retributive justice, there is no reason to grant them such
>privileges quite regardless of who is paying for them.
How can anyone in their right mind compare liposuction and nose jobs to
prescribed medication?
MEDICATION IS NOT A PRIVILEGE!!! Read the eighth amendment to the
Constitution of the United States.
Michael Zeleny
ste...@best.com (Mike Steiner) writes:
>In Article <3g27dl$g...@saba.info.ucla.edu>,
>zel...@oak.math.ucla.edu (Michael Zeleny) wrote:
>>In article <1995Jan21.0...@snugbug.cts.com>
>>jo...@snugbug.cts.com (Joan Tine) asks Curt (cu...@tampico.cso.uiuc.edu)
>>about administering hormone injections to transsexual prisoners at
>>public expense:
>>> I realize people are dying and
>>>all that, but how does this give you the right to deny prisoners their
>>>medication?
>>Presumably, it is the same right that enables the corrections officers
>>to deny their charges their right to nose jobs and liposuction at the
>>taxpayers' expense. For that matter, if incarceration is to serve the
>>purposes of retributive justice, there is no reason to grant them such
>>privileges quite regardless of who is paying for them.
>How can anyone in their right mind compare liposuction and nose jobs to
>prescribed medication?
Easily enough -- as long as such prescription is made as part of any
optional treatment. A 400 pound inmate may well insist that there is
a lithe person tragically imprisoned within his bulk, yearning to be
set free. Who are you to claim that his deeply felt need is in any
way inferior to that experienced by a disaffected transsexual?
>MEDICATION IS NOT A PRIVILEGE!!! Read the eighth amendment to the
>Constitution of the United States.
That must be why Hilary Rodham Clinton was so spectacularly successful
in pushing through her health insurance reform act. Cruel and unusual
indeed.
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>| M. Steiner | ____ Don't assume I'm straight. /\ |
>| ste...@best.com | \ / Don't assume I'm not. / \ |
>| | \/ ~~~~ |
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Does anybody care?
Curt
You would have been a great member of the SS or
>Gestapo, Herr Curt.
Danke'. From now on it's Herr Leftenant Ubermensch von
Bolding.....you schweinhund.
--
Curt
>Look, if you've got something interesting/useful to say, go ahead and say it.
I did.
>If you just want to piss Joan off by using a name that she doesn't particularly
>like, then learn how to use E-Mail.
John's the one eggin' it all on by continually bashing me
because I don't agree with its views. Read the rest of the
thread if you're going to comment.
Either way, keep *your* personal problems
>out of the public newsgroups. 'kay?
No.
--
Curt Bolding JUDGE DREDD
The Main Man IS COMING
cu...@tampico.cso.uiuc.edu
Curt
>In article <1995Jan21.0...@snugbug.cts.com>
>jo...@snugbug.cts.com (Joan Tine) asks Curt (cu...@tampico.cso.uiuc.edu)
>about administering hormone injections to transsexual prisoners at
>public expense:
>> I realize people are dying and
>>all that, but how does this give you the right to deny prisoners their
>>medication?
>Presumably, it is the same right that enables the corrections officers
>to deny their charges their right to nose jobs and liposuction at the
>taxpayers' expense. For that matter, if incarceration is to serve the
>purposes of retributive justice, there is no reason to grant them such
>privileges quite regardless of who is paying for them.
That's exactly right, and what I've been saying all along. The
inmates SHOULD get medication that keeps them healthy.
Donn F. Pedro
: wrote:
: > Bottom line is, I'm making a difference.
I'll bet you are. Do you know what *kind* of a difference you are making?
Donn F. Pedro
: I'm a baaaad cop. 'S funny. My supervisors tell me just the
: opposite.
Consider the source.
Donn F. Pedro
: Ha! WOW, are you ever lost. Yeah, I'm a golden boy all
: right. I've got supervisors who would flay me alive if they
: could only catch me wrong.
So, you're lucky? They haven't caught you?
Joan Tine
: In article <3g0hdt$i...@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>
Well, you can say I have no self-discipline, but this was sufficiently
cryptic I had to de-<<plonk>> Curt and re-index.... Sammie, you
should be in advertising;).
Now to recap: Curt wants to deny prescribed medical treatment for
transsexual prisoners. Curt plays a fairly noteworthily incompetent
hand of 'stump the dummy' with the net, and someone (me--hi!:) from
alt.transgendered removes all his access plates and fishes around
in the oily darkness looking for his spanner in the works for the
better part of a week, bends him over the metaphorical sawhorse in
ways his bitchiest nanny never did, and generally exhibits all
the abrasiveness and self-confidence which are the heritage of a
Blue Tape childhood, and after several thousand words, The Light
Dawns (but only in patches through broken overcast, to wit:
>>But all these distractions aside, how do you justify witholding
>>prescribed medical treatment to transsexuals in prison? Or are
>>you backpedaling out of that one now?
>
>>Joan
>
> You mean "John", don't you? No wonder you keep whining about
> this; you're a switch-hitter yourself.
Curt has begun to suspect me of not being a born XX female! He
is risking his credibility in making the accusation that I might be...
might be...TRANSGENDERED?? In the light of such powers of deduction,
one can only stand in awe... or awwwwwww, one of the two. I trust
the boy is going to be taking his detective's exam Real Soon Now?
"When we eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how
unlikely, must be the truth." (I'm sure _Curt_ said it first.;)
However, I'm guessing, since his use of the language isn't really
intended to conform to milspec in terms of clarity, but that's
the feeling _I_ get from his message. (Although "switch-hitter"
seems more to imply bisexuality than sex reassignment, I'm prepared
to grant him up to 180 degrees of Kentucky windage on the
definition of any 288 words of his choice:).
Yes, Curt, there _is_ a Virginia, and if you have any more
"revelations" of this magnitude, I may just cause myself an
abdominal injury...or at the very least snort my corn flakes
into my sinuses.
> And again, once and for all, I advocate medication necessary to
> prisoners' health and continued existance. THAT'S IT.
Well, perhaps it's the well-known powers of estrogen replacement
therapy to cloud the mind, but I confess that sounds either like
a) he's trying to backpedal out of his previous malicious posts
or b) he's now arrogating unto himself the right to second guess
the physician who was treating the prisoner and who prescribed
hormones before incarceration. Either way, he seems to want to
alter someone's medical regimen in order to get his fix as a
bully, and he's getting a rash over the fact that he is not
allowed to do so.
I _promised_ three people I was going to let the boy go, and I
figured he'd get fretful at attention-withdrawal, but I will
try once more, then I'll _try_ to be good:) :
>>Curt (cu...@tampico.cso.uiuc.edu) wrote:
>
>>In the interest of closure, you asked how I arrested people in
>>NSA. I did not.
>
> You SAID you did, John. You said you had 300 arrests to your
> credit.
Indeed. Perhaps you need to use your finger more...(for READING,
Curt, please, not here!) Your original objection was that NSA
doesn't arrest people, which I confirmed. However, I wasn't in
the NSA when I _was_ arresting people (did you get tired before
you reached the period?) because _that_ was the job I took in
order to get my M.S. [M.S. is an academic degree, and has no
relation to the way you're supposed to address ladies, Curt.]
("It needed to be said." -Steve Landesberg.)
>>I'll respect your wish (you said it three times it must be true)
>>to be let out of this torment
>
> It's not torment. It's amusing. But it's also become
> pointless.
Curt, Angel, it was _always_ pointless...but we were trying to
give you the benefit of the doubt! Don't give up so readily!
>>If you don't tell us what department you work for you have not
>>one hair upon your Ass.
>
> I DON'T have any hair on my ass. Go over to alt.personals.ads
> if that's what you're looking for.
Actually, I was looking for a straight answer regarding which police
department you claimed to work for, but not expecting one in any
realistic sense. But you do confirm my suspicions in a non-linear
way: you're as close to being a sworn officer as I am to astronaut
training. Perhaps you were frightened by The Policeman by abusive
parents when little? And you identified with the object of your
terror? How pitifully delicious!
> John.
Now WAIT a MINUTE! You give me a name (gender inappropriate, but it
_was_ a no-strings GIFT, for pity sake!) Then you turn right around
and use it for your own signature! Not FAIR! *I* never even got
to try it out! Waaaaaaa!
Am *I* the one frightening you now, so you have to identify with
*me*? Curt, you need a less overboard way of contextualizing your
fears! You can't _be_ me: I mean, the surgery aside, you'd have to
lie back for hundreds of hours while people stuck red-hot electric
needles in the follicles of your face...one can't see you demonstrating
that kind of stoicism, and most electrologists won't work on you if
you're drunk or raving.
Also, to be a successful transsexual, you need to obtain the opinions
of at least two medical professionals that you are...well..._sane_.
(Sound of shuffling feet...a cough.)
So it would be better for you to consider some more practical way
of dealing with your discomforts, and one which will allow you to
retain your present genital geometry. I mean, I feel quite sure
that were someone to cut off your head, you'd still get by, but if
they amputated your prick, you'd have no functioning neurons left.
How to sign for your food stamps? And, of course, there is always
the possibility that you'll meet someone nice, someone non-
judgemental, someone perhaps with tertiary syphilis who might,
in a spirit of Lovecraftian whimsy, allow you to have sex with her!
--("Expect a Miracle!")
Don't jettison your jock, Curt, you never, never know:).
Look, I tell you what: rent a copy of The Man in the Glass Booth with
Maximillian Shell, a bottle of Night Train Express, and a black SS
uniform. Tell your neighbors you're going to be away for a while,
close all your window blinds, and have a Therapy Weekend. You'll
feel a lot better:).
In closing, let me express once again, on behalf of the gender
community, the internet family, the Downs Foundation, and the
Trilateral Commission, our sincere gratitude for your efforts
to translate the venerable geek show to an electronic medium.
Mike Steiner
(Michael Zeleny) wrote:
>>How can anyone in their right mind compare liposuction and nose jobs to
>>prescribed medication?
>
>Easily enough -- as long as such prescription is made as part of any
>optional treatment.
Hormone medication, once a person has been on such medication, for a
transsexual is not optional.
Mike Steiner
wrote:
>>If you just want to piss Joan off by using a name that she doesn't
particularly
>>like, then learn how to use E-Mail.
>
> John's the one eggin' it all on by continually bashing me
> because I don't agree with its views. Read the rest of the
> thread if you're going to comment.
The grammatically correct pronoun for a woman is "she," not "it." But then
again, an asshole like you shouldn't be expected to understand such things.
Mike Steiner
wrote:
>jo...@snugbug.cts.com (Joan Tine) writes:
>
>>Curt (cu...@tampico.cso.uiuc.edu) wrote:
>>: ste...@best.com (Mike Steiner) writes:
>
>
>>: You don't know SHIT about me.
>>: If all this horseshit makes you feel better, fine. I don't
>>: care. I don't have time to waste on you any more. If you or
>>: anybody else needs the last word, fine. I'll always let you
>>: have it. The last ACTION, however, will always be mine.
>
>
>>In the interest of closure, you asked how I arrested people in
>>NSA. I did not.
>
> You SAID you did, John. You said you had 300 arrests to your
> credit.
Her name is "Joan," you cretin.
Mike Steiner
(Roope J Lehto) wrote:
>: In Article <3fs106$m...@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>, cu...@tampico.cso.uiuc.edu (Curt)
>: wrote:
>: > I don't waste my time trying to convert people. How many of
>: > your words I understand doesn't keep the peace. That's all
>: > I'm interested in.
>
>: So were the Gestapo and KGB. Peace through fear and intimidation is not
>: true peace.
>
>Hate to tell you this; Gestapo and KGB were not peace-keeping
>organizations. They existed to control the enemies of the states that
>created them. Normal law enforcement was still the province of local law
>enforcement agencies.
And those local law enforcement agencies were under the ultimate control of
the KGB and Gestapo.
"Normal law enforcement" in Nazi Germany and in the USSR? That's a laugh.
Mike Steiner
wrote:
>jo...@snugbug.cts.com (Joan Tine) writes:
>
>>Curt (cu...@tampico.cso.uiuc.edu) wrote:
>
>
>>But all these distractions aside, how do you justify witholding
>>prescribed medical treatment to transsexuals in prison? Or are
>>you backpedaling out of that one now?
>
>>Joan
>
> You mean "John", don't you? No wonder you keep whining about
> this; you're a switch-hitter yourself. And again, once and
> for all, I advocate medication necessary to prisoners' health
> and continued existance. THAT'S IT.
In that case, you're contradicting yourself, Sally.
Curt
Yes sir. I surely do.
Curt
>Consider the source.
Hey.....I didn't say their opinion was worth a lot.
Curt
Curt
>Sammie L. Foss (S...@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU) wrote:
>: In article <3g0hdt$i...@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>
>: cu...@tampico.cso.uiuc.edu (Curt) writes:
>:
>: > You mean "John", don't you? No wonder you keep whining about
>: > this; you're a switch-hitter yourself.
>:
>: eh eh eh he said switch-hitter eh eh eh
>:
>: Sammie
>Well, you can say I have no self-discipline, but this was sufficiently
>cryptic I had to de-<<plonk>> Curt and re-index.... Sammie, you
>should be in advertising;).
>Now to recap: Curt wants to deny prescribed medical treatment for
>transsexual prisoners.
If it's prescribed for something other than is necessary for
their continued physical health, and if taxes are expected to
pay for it, that's right.
>>>But all these distractions aside, how do you justify witholding
>>>prescribed medical treatment to transsexuals in prison? Or are
>>>you backpedaling out of that one now?
>>
>>>Joan
>>
>> You mean "John", don't you? No wonder you keep whining about
>> this; you're a switch-hitter yourself.
>Curt has begun to suspect me of not being a born XX female!
I guess you've forgotten admitting to it on anothe newsgroup.
Shall I reprint it here?
>Yes, Curt, there _is_ a Virginia, and if you have any more
>"revelations" of this magnitude, I may just cause myself an
>abdominal injury...or at the very least snort my corn flakes
>into my sinuses.
I'd like to see that. I'll try to find another revelation.
>> And again, once and for all, I advocate medication necessary to
>> prisoners' health and continued existance. THAT'S IT.
>Well, perhaps it's the well-known powers of estrogen replacement
>therapy to cloud the mind, but I confess that sounds either like
>a) he's trying to backpedal out of his previous malicious posts
I'm stating what I've stated all along.
>or b) he's now arrogating unto himself the right to second guess
>the physician who was treating the prisoner and who prescribed
>hormones before incarceration. Either way, he seems to want to
>alter someone's medical regimen in order to get his fix as a
>bully, and he's getting a rash over the fact that he is not
>allowed to do so.
There's a lot of things I'm not allowed to do that I just have
to live with.
However, I wasn't in
>the NSA when I _was_ arresting people
Now who's backpedaling? Okay, so WHERE did you arrest people?
In what capacity?
>Also, to be a successful transsexual, you need to obtain the opinions
>of at least two medical professionals that you are...well..._sane_.
Congratulations on your success.
>In closing, let me express once again, on behalf of the gender
>community, the internet family, the Downs Foundation, and the
>Trilateral Commission, our sincere gratitude for your efforts
>to translate the venerable geek show to an electronic medium.
God, you really spouted a TON of drivel this time, John. You
certainly are good with words; you should be a writer. Your
precious vocabulary, however, won't amount to a fucking thing
when you find yourself the victim of a crime. And whether the
criminal is a transsexual or not, I guarantee you he (it?)
will be as unimpressed with you as I am. Maybe you'll get
some sense in your thick skull before then. Write back, or
don't.
Podsnap
called...uiuc.edu. Is that right? What is this, some state college or
something? Some night school? Is this, like, where cops go to get
certification to become wordprocessing detectives or something?
I won't pick on old Curt any further, since I suspect he is actually...
No, I won't say it. That would be cruel. Let's just say he doesn't have
his facts straight. Maybe when he graduates from uiuc, things will look
up.
Margot Sheehan
Podsnap Press
Joan Tine
: In article <1995Jan21.0...@snugbug.cts.com>
: jo...@snugbug.cts.com (Joan Tine) asks Curt (cu...@tampico.cso.uiuc.edu)
: about administering hormone injections to transsexual prisoners at
: public expense:
: > I realize people are dying and
: >all that, but how does this give you the right to deny prisoners their
: >medication?
: Presumably, it is the same right that enables the corrections officers
: to deny their charges their right to nose jobs and liposuction at the
: taxpayers' expense. For that matter, if incarceration is to serve the
: purposes of retributive justice, there is no reason to grant them such
: privileges quite regardless of who is paying for them.
I'm sorry, Mikhail, but your opportunity to try to defend the (good luck)
proposition that HRT is "cosmetic" was when the discussion was in full
sail. At this point, it's just more flamebait to keep your entertainment
going, and you aren't sufficiently entertaining in return--I refuse to
trade with you unless you offer value in return.
If you think that way, and you actively assert that you aren't
another drooling wimp who wants Big Daddy to hand him an opportunity
to harm someone whom he'd otherwise lack the physical courage to
mess with, you're a liar. Get your own life in order and stop
paying so much attention to things which are none of your affair.
There is travail enough in this world, it doesn't need you and your
ilk causing more suffering. Grow up and try to _build_, we aren't
setting up blocks for post-kindergartners to knock over any more.
If all you can understand are midbrain behaviors like causing
harm or destruction to others, start with yourself. Don't worry,
if you've already bred, we'll raise your offspring...but we'll
raise them to be human. But know this: you and your kind are
obsolete. We are displacing you, we are circumscribing you,
we are limiting and nullifying your evil. Your days as a historical
influence are drawing to a close, and while your little wars and
posturings still get attention, more people of good will on
both sides of the gender continuum have tired of paying for your
tantrums, and are no longer intimidated by your bared fangs.
Unless being a zoo animal appeals to you, evolve!
Michael Zeleny
>In Article <3g2mqt$h...@saba.info.ucla.edu>,
>zel...@oak.math.ucla.edu (Michael Zeleny) wrote:
>>>How can anyone in their right mind compare liposuction and nose jobs to
>>>prescribed medication?
>>Easily enough -- as long as such prescription is made as part of any
>>optional treatment.
>Hormone medication, once a person has been on such medication, for a
>transsexual is not optional.
Only in the sense that the same can be said about an arbitrary chemical
dependency. Your expectations of being catered to your perceived need
in a punitive environment should not exceed those of any other addict.
Joan Tine
: Er...@Discordia.cso.uiuc.edu (Eris Esoteric) writes:
: >Look, if you've got something interesting/useful to say, go ahead and say it.
: I did.
: >If you just want to piss Joan off by using a name that she doesn't particularly
: >like, then learn how to use E-Mail.
:
: John's the one eggin' it all on by continually bashing me
: because I don't agree with its views. Read the rest of the
: thread if you're going to comment.
Oh, Curt, is that the _best_ you can do? I mean, using inanimate pronouns
to bait the transgendered is really a novel idea...in 1940. However,
your advice is well taken, and if YOU would "read the rest of the
thread" you might be motivated to put your head in a bucket and bang
it with a soup ladle...not for any ethical shame, that will probably
be out of your reach for a few more millennia, but for the bald
illiteracy you display, and the single-digit reading comprehension
your replies showcase.
I don't mind you operating solely at the emotional level, but trying
to drag others down to that level is only going to buy you
frustration and further feelings of inadequacy. _Evolve_, dear.
We're all...ah..._rooting_ for you:).
And if you can't manage to do any real _thinking_ you can at
_least_ try to entertain. Watch Comedy Store and try some borrowed
material. Play old Bob Newhart and Bill Cosby records, and try to
lip-synch. Before you know it, you'll be speaking in WHOLE
SENTENCES! (Gives you goosebumps just thinking of it, doesn't it?)
You can do it, Curt. I believe in you.
/*
* p.d.
*/
void rattle(unsigned char *) ;
unsigned char * p ;
p = &curt.cage ;
rattle(p) ;
Q
: Either way, keep *your* personal problems
: >out of the public newsgroups. 'kay?
: No.
: --
: Curt Bolding JUDGE DREDD
: The Main Man IS COMING
: cu...@tampico.cso.uiuc.edu
--
--
Joan, the Right Disreputable, Lady Wombat.
Joan Tine
: ste...@best.com (Mike Steiner) writes:
: You would have been a great member of the SS or
: >Gestapo, Herr Curt.
: Danke'. From now on it's Herr Leftenant Ubermensch von
: Bolding.....you schweinhund.
THIS is HUMOR? In a COP??
Curt, Curt...just when I think I've got you pegged, you make
me revise my image of your education downward. At this rate,
I'm going to have to saw a hole in the floor to accomodate
the new scaling.
Michael Zeleny
jo...@snugbug.cts.com (Joan Tine) writes:
>Michael Zeleny (zel...@oak.math.ucla.edu) wrote:
>>In article <1995Jan21.0...@snugbug.cts.com>
>>jo...@snugbug.cts.com (Joan Tine) asks Curt (cu...@tampico.cso.uiuc.edu)
>>about administering hormone injections to transsexual prisoners at
>>public expense:
>>> I realize people are dying and
>>>all that, but how does this give you the right to deny prisoners their
>>>medication?
>>Presumably, it is the same right that enables the corrections officers
>>to deny their charges their right to nose jobs and liposuction at the
>>taxpayers' expense. For that matter, if incarceration is to serve the
>>purposes of retributive justice, there is no reason to grant them such
>>privileges quite regardless of who is paying for them.
>I'm sorry, Mikhail, but your opportunity to try to defend the (good luck)
>proposition that HRT is "cosmetic" was when the discussion was in full
>sail. At this point, it's just more flamebait to keep your entertainment
>going, and you aren't sufficiently entertaining in return--I refuse to
>trade with you unless you offer value in return.
The salient term is not "cosmetic", but "optional".
>If you think that way, and you actively assert that you aren't
>another drooling wimp who wants Big Daddy to hand him an opportunity
>to harm someone whom he'd otherwise lack the physical courage to
>mess with, you're a liar. Get your own life in order and stop
> paying so much attention to things which are none of your affair.
>There is travail enough in this world, it doesn't need you and your
>ilk causing more suffering. Grow up and try to _build_, we aren't
>setting up blocks for post-kindergartners to knock over any more.
If these things are none of my affair, stop dragging them out in my
and everyone else's public space. More importantly, stop asking the
public to pay for your private proclivities.
>If all you can understand are midbrain behaviors like causing
>harm or destruction to others, start with yourself. Don't worry,
>if you've already bred, we'll raise your offspring...but we'll
>raise them to be human. But know this: you and your kind are
>obsolete. We are displacing you, we are circumscribing you,
>we are limiting and nullifying your evil. Your days as a historical
>influence are drawing to a close, and while your little wars and
>posturings still get attention, more people of good will on
>both sides of the gender continuum have tired of paying for your
>tantrums, and are no longer intimidated by your bared fangs.
>Unless being a zoo animal appeals to you, evolve!
Evolution is hardly a process that can be contained within a single
life span. An appeal to reason would be more apposite in an attempt
to change your opponent's mind. Unfortunately, there is no reason to
be found in this acrimonious diatribe. Its sole venture into factual
content, appealing to "the gender continuum", is both scientifically
unsound and irrelevant to the formulation of public policy. Sexual
dimorphism in any dioecious species is a biological universal, which
in the higher animals realizes a fundamental binary opposition as much
as any other category in the biosphere. For the past 2 1/2 millennia,
from Aristotle to Kripke, philosophers have argued that biological sex
is essential to the individual. While I see no good reason for the
state to venture into controlling its citizens' urges to flee from the
reality of their biological identity, neither do I see any grounds for
it to sustain their private experimentation therewith, particularly in
an environment expressly set up in order to punish their criminal
behavior. If you want to have it your way, stay out of prison.
>Joan
>
>--
>--
>wombat [altered < Austrialian native name] any of a family (Phascolo-
>midae) of burrowing marsupials resembling small bears, found in
>Australia, Tasmania, and several Pacific islands. (2'-4' long).
cordially, don't
Joan Tine
: >Now to recap: Curt wants to deny prescribed medical treatment for
: >transsexual prisoners.
: If it's prescribed for something other than is necessary for
: their continued physical health, and if taxes are expected to
: pay for it, that's right.
As judged by whom? You? Let's not dance, you step on my pumps when
you try to lead: are you against hormone replacement therapy,
prescribed by a physician, for transsexuals? Yes or no, why or
why not, based on what competent medical data? And while you're
at it, can you cite any precident statute or operative case law
for such selective denial of therapy? (Don't get excited here,
Curt, 'stare decesis' doesn't mean killing somebody with a
dirty look, mind.)
: >Curt has begun to suspect me of not being a born XX female!
: I guess you've forgotten admitting to it on anothe newsgroup.
: Shall I reprint it here?
Curt, please, _nobody_ is as stupid as you're pretending to be,
and I'm not buying it for a moment. There was never any doubt
about my birth gender, not even in YOUR mind. Didn't your mother
tell you your nose wiggled when you tried to lie? Is it beyond
your experience to consort with ex-boys? Or are we supposed to
deny our origins, cower, and (all together now!) CRY? Actually,
if you could learn how to behave indoors, I think there is probably
a M->F TS out there who could make you really happy. (No, not ME,
I don't date outside my phylum.) She could beat hell out of you
physically so you'd get your S&M fix, then fuck you senseless and
cuddle and coo so you'd get the warmth and nurturing you so seem to
need, and on top of that, she could probably still swear like a
sailor, so you wouldn't be starved for conversation. She wouldn't
have periods so you would be spared all that "icky" stuff which
probably put you off ladies to start with, and she could very
likely swap war stories about being the high school quarterback
with you. Think of it!
Hmmmmmm. Give me a while, I'll think of somone I know who's had
all her shots and wears _thick_ glasses....
: >Yes, Curt, there _is_ a Virginia, and if you have any more
: >"revelations" of this magnitude, I may just cause myself an
: >abdominal injury...or at the very least snort my corn flakes
: >into my sinuses.
: I'd like to see that. I'll try to find another revelation.
Oh, fess up, you just like nose stuff.
I'd be proud of you if you could find your _bottom_ with both hands
and a road map, actually. It seems to migrate all kinds of places,
since in the time I've known you, it seems to be in exile and
hiding beneath your cap. Considering your previous abusive statements
about it, I suspect the poor thing is on involuntary sabbatical because
it thinks you're planning on letting legions of women bugger it with
technical impliments:). Poooor little butt! But since, as you
averr, it hath not ONE hair on it, you probably save a modest
amount on Gilette Blue Blades and still pass morning linup :).
: >> And again, once and for all, I advocate medication necessary to
: >> prisoners' health and continued existance. THAT'S IT.
: >Well, perhaps it's the well-known powers of estrogen replacement
: >therapy to cloud the mind, but I confess that sounds either like
: >a) he's trying to backpedal out of his previous malicious posts
:
: I'm stating what I've stated all along.
I can't argue, can I? All along, I've been saying you can't
use a sentence without shooting off your foot, so it's not inconceivable
that it's taken this long to stop saying something diametrically
opposed to what you now say you mean. If you go on long enough,
we may make a Mother Theresa out of you! (Consider L. Bruce's remarks
on what would have happened if Einstein were a Texan.)
: >or b) he's now arrogating unto himself the right to second guess
: >the physician who was treating the prisoner and who prescribed
: >hormones before incarceration. Either way, he seems to want to
: >alter someone's medical regimen in order to get his fix as a
: >bully, and he's getting a rash over the fact that he is not
: >allowed to do so.
: There's a lot of things I'm not allowed to do that I just have
: to live with.
Just so none of them involve hurting children or animals, Curt, I'm
willing to listen. Maybe we can find some way for you to achieve
fulfilment...or at least diagnosis. Take heart, Curt, there's still
the odd spate of gay-bashing and suchlike. Being a Prince of the
City, one need not live in frustration, need one? But what are you
going to do when they appoint a woman as your supervisor? I can't
see you thriving in that situation, and it's sure to happen sooner or
later. I mean, with your attitude, it's not as if YOU are going
anywhere, is it?
: However, I wasn't in
: >the NSA when I _was_ arresting people
: Now who's backpedaling? Okay, so WHERE did you arrest people?
: In what capacity?
Tell you what, Curt, you tell me _your_ beat, and I'll tell you _mine_
hmmmmm? (Betcha mine's bigger!:) You were barking and braying about
what a heroic Street Cop you are...what is it, foot patrol in Watts?
The Combat Zone in Boston? The Castro, Basin Street, Fire Island, what?
From all the swagger, I figure you're fighting for your life and
virginity on an hourly basis. What do you work? Central Park in
New York? Queens? Harlem? You aren't one of those Subway wannabe's
are you? You're really a Real Cop(tm) right? (OhmiGOD, I BET he's
in K-9 and they assigned him a little drug beagle and he wanted
a Dobie/Shep/Rottweiler! OhmiGOD, please, no, there's a good God
and HE LOVES doggies!)
Right?? I KNOW how important these things are to you, so you
owe yourself the right to strut a little bit, so go for it!
: >Also, to be a successful transsexual, you need to obtain the opinions
: >of at least two medical professionals that you are...well..._sane_.
: Congratulations on your success.
(Blush and curtsy.) Thenk kew. ("Cerebus feels fine fine fine.
President Weisshaupt gave Cerebus papers. Papers say Cerebus is
fine fine fine.") ['Course, in California they call it a DMV 328,
but it still sez Cerebus is fine fine fine.]
: God, you really spouted a TON of drivel this time, John. You
: certainly are good with words; you should be a writer.
Gee, Curt ol' sock, you're getting better! Guess WHAT??
No, it's been tough enough on you as it is. I don't want you
offing yourself in the flushtank.
: Your
: precious vocabulary, however, won't amount to a fucking thing
: when you find yourself the victim of a crime. And whether the
: criminal is a transsexual or not, I guarantee you he (it?)
: will be as unimpressed with you as I am. Maybe you'll get
: some sense in your thick skull before then. Write back, or
: don't.
Reverse psychology? It's-a verry nice-a, a-but we-a just-a GOT one,
you see? ("I told him we already got one! Fetchy la mush!")
Curt, you _really_ have a problem with people's educations. If you
weren't such a rough-and-tumble kinda guy, I'd figure you for one
of those rent-a-cops who works high school football games in Beverly
Hills. I've seen some sour looks on some of those goons at Hollywood
High games that would curdle tequila. Imagine, all that macho bullshit
they feed themselves, then they have to go to these events in the most
menial capacity next to groundskeeper, surrounded by the most lucious
little girls they've ever set a sick stare upon, with their equally
young boyfriends, all of them privileged beyond any comparison, headed
for heavy-duty careers of prestige and influence, money and property,
fame, sex, and legal immunity, and the poor GuardMan has to go home
and absorb a Buckhorn and beat up the wife. I swear to you, I've
seen _teeth_marks_ on their batons and flecks of plastic between
their incisors...and those new inorganic ones _can't_ be good for
the bowel, can they? Sometimes, when it's just beyond bearing
for a son of the obedient classes, he offers to sell his soul and
be a guard dog in return for the right to bite his peers now and
then. These "officers" generally are why local Chiefs of Police are
independent forces in the Aspirin market. Comment, Fido?
Did you ever use your baton to stimulate your prostate, Curt?
Just ASKing, sheesh!
Anyone _else's_?
A Kel light??
So tell! Are you a real on-your-feet kinda guy, just you,
your radio, and your Peacemaker against the Mean Streets,
or some pansy in a patrol car? Or, (Pardon the implied insult,
I'm sure you'd never stoop so low) are you in a helecopter
fighting your war with a flashlight? No, that could never
be, Curt has to get down and dirty, right?
Right?
You _are_ a _patrol_ officer, right? I mean...you don't just
process...PAPER??
Curt, are you now, or have you ever been in the basement underneath
a squash court surrounded by lead bricks and nerdlets? Was it good?
OH, and regarding your comments about impressing perpetrators...while
I don't care for the weight and general air of paranoia associated
with dressing to perforate (and the holsters give me skin rash),
didja know that the ONLY three people I've ever met with (non-
commercial) Federal Firearms Licenses were all post-op transsexuals?
Go figure. Just another of the great mysteries of life...like why
over 50% of all the bullets fired by police in America never hit
_anybody_. Must be the Quality of Mercy, hah?
And before you ask, the figure comes from Massad Ayoob, and if you
have _any_ intention of preserving your ego, don't ask who he is.
--
--
Joan, the Right Disreputable, Lady Wombat.
Wheel && Peditate, Hackers at Law
Priscilla Asagiri Fashions in Fiberglass
Joan Tine
: I notice old Curt Bolding is net-freeloading on something
: Margot Sheehan
: Podsnap Press
Margot, I can't believe Curt is a student. Call it a failing of my
imagination, but there you are. I just figured he had some access
via the local campus like we have in San Diego through SDSU and UCSD
and San Diego Supercomputer Center...but I could be wrong.
OhmiGOD! You don't suppose...?
Michael Zeleny
>In Article <3g641j$h...@saba.info.ucla.edu>,
>zel...@oak.math.ucla.edu (Michael Zeleny) wrote:
>>In article <steiner.1...@news.best.com>
>>ste...@best.com (Mike Steiner) writes:
>>>In Article <3g2mqt$h...@saba.info.ucla.edu>,
>>>zel...@oak.math.ucla.edu (Michael Zeleny) wrote:
>>>>>How can anyone in their right mind compare liposuction and nose jobs to
>>>>>prescribed medication?
>>>>Easily enough -- as long as such prescription is made as part of any
>>>>optional treatment.
>>>Hormone medication, once a person has been on such medication, for a
>>>transsexual is not optional.
>>Only in the sense that the same can be said about an arbitrary chemical
>>dependency.
>Please stop showing off your ignorance. It is not an "arbitrary chemical
>dependency" any more than insulin is for a diabetic. It is part of the
>treatment for a diagnosed medical condition
In contradistinction from a transsexual, a diabetic has no choice in his
condition. Moreover, the controversial subject of whether or not the
common cases of transsexuality (those not originating in a developmental
hormonal deficiency) amount to a bona fide "diagnosed medical condition"
amenable to rectification by means of surgery and chemical therapy, is
quite beside the point. It is still invariably true that such treatment
is undertaken optionally, just like my examples of cosmetic surgery.
And optional treatment is never an inalienable right.
>>Your expectations of being catered to your perceived need
>>in a punitive environment should not exceed those of any other addict.
>As I wrote, please stop showing off your ignorance in public. It is very
>unbecoming of someone who is sponging off our tax dollars to gain an
>education (assuming that you're a student--I hope for the sake of the
>student body that you're not faculty).
Until and unless you succeed in getting me incarcerated for trampling on
your tender sensibilities, I shall continue to regard myself entitled to
my fair share of benefits financed by "our tax dollars". Thank you for
playing a small part in keeping me afloat.
Mike Steiner
(Michael Zeleny) wrote:
>>Please stop showing off your ignorance. It is not an "arbitrary chemical
>>dependency" any more than insulin is for a diabetic. It is part of the
>>treatment for a diagnosed medical condition
>
>In contradistinction from a transsexual, a diabetic has no choice in his
>condition.
Once again, you display ignorance. A transsexual has no choice in her (MTF)
or his (FTM) condition.
>>As I wrote, please stop showing off your ignorance in public. It is very
>>unbecoming of someone who is sponging off our tax dollars to gain an
>>education (assuming that you're a student--I hope for the sake of the
>>student body that you're not faculty).
>
>Until and unless you succeed in getting me incarcerated for trampling on
>your tender sensibilities, I shall continue to regard myself entitled to
>my fair share of benefits financed by "our tax dollars". Thank you for
>playing a small part in keeping me afloat.
You're a hypocrite. You have no compunctions about taking tax money to
further your education, but you are all too ready to deny required
medication from that same tax money to someone else.
Mike Steiner
(Michael Zeleny) wrote:
>In article <steiner.1...@news.best.com>
>ste...@best.com (Mike Steiner) writes:
>
>>In Article <3g2mqt$h...@saba.info.ucla.edu>,
>>zel...@oak.math.ucla.edu (Michael Zeleny) wrote:
>
>>>>How can anyone in their right mind compare liposuction and nose jobs to
>>>>prescribed medication?
>
>>>Easily enough -- as long as such prescription is made as part of any
>>>optional treatment.
>
>>Hormone medication, once a person has been on such medication, for a
>>transsexual is not optional.
>
>Only in the sense that the same can be said about an arbitrary chemical
>dependency.
Please stop showing off your ignorance. It is not an "arbitrary chemical
dependency" any more than insulin is for a diabetic. It is part of the
treatment for a diagnosed medical condition
>Your expectations of being catered to your perceived need
>in a punitive environment should not exceed those of any other addict.
As I wrote, please stop showing off your ignorance in public. It is very
unbecoming of someone who is sponging off our tax dollars to gain an
education (assuming that you're a student--I hope for the sake of the
student body that you're not faculty).
Joan Tine
: dfp...@nv2.uswnvg.com (Donn F. Pedro) writes:
: >: In Article <3fn0md$s...@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>, cu...@tampico.cso.uiuc.edu (Curt)
: >: wrote:
: >: > Bottom line is, I'm making a difference.
: >I'll bet you are. Do you know what *kind* of a difference you are making?
: Yes sir. I surely do.
Well, that sounds important, you've surely got many heroic odes.
Would you describe for us your most interesting felony bust within
the last year, and the last time you saved someone's life? How
about your last confrontation with an armed suspect which required
a shooting board?
Please be graphic, Spielberg may be reading.
: --
: Curt Bolding JUDGE DREDD
: The Main Man IS COMING
: cu...@tampico.cso.uiuc.edu
What, got shamed into revising your .sig??
I figured you more for the Judge Child type to me...or perhaps
even Judge Fish. (Or Judge Mortis?)
Joan Tine
: dfp...@nv2.uswnvg.com (Donn F. Pedro) writes:
: >Curt (cu...@tampico.cso.uiuc.edu) wrote:
: >: Ha! WOW, are you ever lost. Yeah, I'm a golden boy all
: >: right. I've got supervisors who would flay me alive if they
: >: could only catch me wrong.
: >So, you're lucky? They haven't caught you?
: No, I'm good.
Curt, I don't understand what you mean. Are you saying that you
follow strict ethical precepts? That you are honest, cheerful,
thrifty, polite, clean, courtious, brave, and reverent?
Is THAT what you're saying, Curt?
Joan
Michael Zeleny
>In Article <3g9129$k...@saba.info.ucla.edu>,
>zel...@oak.math.ucla.edu (Michael Zeleny) wrote:
>>In article <steiner.1...@news.best.com>
>>ste...@best.com (Mike Steiner ) writes:
>>>In Article <3g80k2$9...@saba.info.ucla.edu>,
>>>zel...@oak.math.ucla.edu (Michael Zeleny) wrote:
>>>>>Please stop showing off your ignorance. It is not an "arbitrary chemical
>>>>>dependency" any more than insulin is for a diabetic. It is part of the
>>>>>treatment for a diagnosed medical condition
>>>>In contradistinction from a transsexual, a diabetic has no choice in his
>>>>condition.
>>>Once again, you display ignorance. A transsexual has no choice in her (MTF)
>>>or his (FTM) condition.
>>On the contrary, the transsexual has a choice between surgical
>>mutilation and psychiatric treatment.
>First of all, it is not mutilation. Secondly, surgery and hormone treatment
>have to be recommended by a therapist because they are the only treatment
>that would work.
Mutilation is gratuitous and injurious excision or alteration of a
body part. So let us entertain the possibility that the surgical
intervention and hormone treatment recommended by a therapist to the
transsexual "because they are the only treatment that would work" are,
in fact, justified and beneficial. Please explain the purpose and the
reasoning that justify them, distinguishing the transsexual's plight
from the predicament of a slender man who feels trapped in an obese
body.
>>>>>As I wrote, please stop showing off your ignorance in public. It is very
>>>>>unbecoming of someone who is sponging off our tax dollars to gain an
>>>>>education (assuming that you're a student--I hope for the sake of the
>>>>>student body that you're not faculty).
>>>>Until and unless you succeed in getting me incarcerated for trampling on
>>>>your tender sensibilities, I shall continue to regard myself entitled to
>>>>my fair share of benefits financed by "our tax dollars". Thank you for
>>>>playing a small part in keeping me afloat.
>>>You're a hypocrite. You have no compunctions about taking tax money to
>>>further your education, but you are all too ready to deny required
>>>medication from that same tax money to someone else.
>>A convict forfeits numerous rights of citizenship. Thus I apply the
>>same standard to myself, as I do to everyone else.
>The right to needed and prescribed medication is not one of those forefeited
>rights.
You are begging the question of need. Justify your claim. Bear in
mind that legitimate prescriptions are very easy to come by outside of
the Big House. I could walk out of my house tomorrow morning with a
thousand dollars in my pocket, coming back several hours later with a
wide assortment of narcotics, sedatives, and stimulants, all of which
would have been properly prescribed to me by licensed physicians. On
the other hand, I would hardly expect such munificence from the prison
medical staff, just as I would not expect the mess hall to oblige by
serving my favorite meal from Le Chardonnay instead of their specialty
of the house, sliced baloney on Wonder Bread.
>You are speaking out of ignorance--at least, I hope that it is ignorance and
>not deliberate misrepresentation.
Then you should have no problem explaining the error of my ways.
Michael Zeleny
jo...@snugbug.cts.com (Joan Tine) writes:
>Michael Zeleny (zel...@oak.math.ucla.edu) wrote:
>>>Hormone medication, once a person has been on such medication, for a
>>>transsexual is not optional.
>>Only in the sense that the same can be said about an arbitrary chemical
>>dependency. Your expectations of being catered to your perceived need
>>in a punitive environment should not exceed those of any other addict.
>Michael, you have one of the Great Minds...of the 8th Century. Leprosy
>was a criminal offense, later the onus shifted to venerial infections,
>forms of mental instability. Now you want to criminalize a person for
>taking medication prescribed by their physician. In order to do that,
>you will also have to go after the doctor who prescribed. I rather
>want to see you put yourself up against the AMA, I have to admit.
You really ought to read more carefully -- I said nothing that would
imply or require criminalizing anything whatsoever. If you want to
remain free to enjoy that, which is not forbidden, stay on the other
side of the barbed wire.
>This ought to be fun. 'Course, in the process, you run the real
>risk of being noticed by a psychiatrist and remanded for 48 hours
>of observation...and _that_ doesn't require your consent, lover.
You must be very insecure in your newly found gender role, to exhibit
such constant compulsion to threaten your intelocutor with punishment
by the authority of the state. Looks like a clear case of penis envy.
>Tough thing about being an oppressor is you forget how vulnerable
>we all are. That look of shock and realization is one of the things
>which can make you decide on a career as an educator.... There
>_are_ "pure" experiences left!
Stop drooling, or you will mess up your keyboard.
>Joan
>
>--
>the Right Disreputable, Lady Wombat.
>Priscilla Asagiri Fashions in Fiberglass
cordially, don't
Michael Zeleny
>In Article <3g80k2$9...@saba.info.ucla.edu>,
>zel...@oak.math.ucla.edu (Michael Zeleny) wrote:
>>>Please stop showing off your ignorance. It is not an "arbitrary chemical
>>>dependency" any more than insulin is for a diabetic. It is part of the
>>>treatment for a diagnosed medical condition
>>In contradistinction from a transsexual, a diabetic has no choice in his
>>condition.
>Once again, you display ignorance. A transsexual has no choice in her (MTF)
>or his (FTM) condition.
On the contrary, the transsexual has a choice between surgical
mutilation and psychiatric treatment.
>>>As I wrote, please stop showing off your ignorance in public. It is very
>>>unbecoming of someone who is sponging off our tax dollars to gain an
>>>education (assuming that you're a student--I hope for the sake of the
>>>student body that you're not faculty).
>>Until and unless you succeed in getting me incarcerated for trampling on
>>your tender sensibilities, I shall continue to regard myself entitled to
>>my fair share of benefits financed by "our tax dollars". Thank you for
>>playing a small part in keeping me afloat.
>You're a hypocrite. You have no compunctions about taking tax money to
>further your education, but you are all too ready to deny required
>medication from that same tax money to someone else.
A convict forfeits numerous rights of citizenship. Thus I apply the
same standard to myself, as I do to everyone else.
cordially, don't
Katherine Greene
zel...@oak.math.ucla.edu (Michael Zeleny) writes:
>On the contrary, the transsexual has a choice between surgical
>mutilation and psychiatric treatment.
Inaccurate. There is no known psychiatric treatment that reverses this
condition with any confidence. Dr. Martin Seligmann, one noted clinician
and author on the topic of induced helplessness and depression, published
a survey recently of emotional and psychological conditions that are
successfully treatable by the couseling and medical methods in use today.
When he reached the topic of transexualism he said the accepted literature
cites few cases of effective treatment other than surgery and little
discernable pattern to those few.
His position is the norm and not the exception within the psychiatric
and counseling professions. Of course, that doesn't mean one won't be
found tomorrow, but there isn't one now.
>A convict forfeits numerous rights of citizenship. Thus I apply the
>same standard to myself, as I do to everyone else.
Mikhail! You usually use language more accurately than this. Shame!
A convict forfeits many civil rights, but only in the former Soviet
Union and similar regimes have prisoners ever lost their citizenship.
Civil rights and the right of citizenship is not a synonymous equivalency.
However, even allowing for your inaccurate language one right a convict
does not forfeit ever is equal protection of the law.
In other words it is written into law, in the U.S. at least, that one
person may not be penalized more than another person over and above the
penalty prescribed by the statute they have transgressed. If there is
a prior medical condition that is under recognized medical treatment,
and if denial of continued treatment will damage the convict's health,
then under the equal protection clause the state is obliged to continue
treatment at the minimal level needed to maintain the convict's health.
An illegal addiction to drugs is not (in most cases) equivalent to a
medical deficiency, under the law, no matter how it was induced.
What is important in such cases is the medical effect on the convict.
If the there are genuine medical problems if treatment is denied then
the convict's health is the controlling factor. Therefore those few
cases where an illegal addiction is equivalent then the same rule has
been applied to the addict, not the reverse. Usually this has been
through a detox program (measured withdrawal) or through substitution
of maintenance substances like methadone. The maintenance dose of
estrogens is much smaller than the dosage a transexual requires during
transition. This should not be a hardship on the state.
ciao!
--Kathy
Katherine Greene ka...@netcom.com
Santa Clara, California
Mike Steiner
(Michael Zeleny) wrote:
>In article <steiner.1...@news.best.com>
>ste...@best.com (Mike Steiner ) writes:
>
>>In Article <3g80k2$9...@saba.info.ucla.edu>,
>>zel...@oak.math.ucla.edu (Michael Zeleny) wrote:
>
>>>>Please stop showing off your ignorance. It is not an "arbitrary chemical
>>>>dependency" any more than insulin is for a diabetic. It is part of the
>>>>treatment for a diagnosed medical condition
>
>>>In contradistinction from a transsexual, a diabetic has no choice in his
>>>condition.
>
>>Once again, you display ignorance. A transsexual has no choice in her (MTF)
>>or his (FTM) condition.
>
>On the contrary, the transsexual has a choice between surgical
>mutilation and psychiatric treatment.
First of all, it is not mutilation. Secondly, surgery and hormone treatment
have to be recommended by a therapist because they are the only treatment
that would work.
>>>>As I wrote, please stop showing off your ignorance in public. It is very
>>>>unbecoming of someone who is sponging off our tax dollars to gain an
>>>>education (assuming that you're a student--I hope for the sake of the
>>>>student body that you're not faculty).
>
>>>Until and unless you succeed in getting me incarcerated for trampling on
>>>your tender sensibilities, I shall continue to regard myself entitled to
>>>my fair share of benefits financed by "our tax dollars". Thank you for
>>>playing a small part in keeping me afloat.
>
>>You're a hypocrite. You have no compunctions about taking tax money to
>>further your education, but you are all too ready to deny required
>>medication from that same tax money to someone else.
>
>A convict forfeits numerous rights of citizenship. Thus I apply the
>same standard to myself, as I do to everyone else.
The right to needed and prescribed medication is not one of those forefeited
rights.
You are speaking out of ignorance--at least, I hope that it is ignorance and
not deliberate misrepresentation.
Michael Zeleny
ka...@netcom.com (Katherine Greene) writes:
>zel...@oak.math.ucla.edu (Michael Zeleny) writes:
>>On the contrary, the transsexual has a choice between surgical
>>mutilation and psychiatric treatment.
>Inaccurate. There is no known psychiatric treatment that reverses this
>condition with any confidence. Dr. Martin Seligmann, one noted clinician
>and author on the topic of induced helplessness and depression, published
>a survey recently of emotional and psychological conditions that are
>successfully treatable by the couseling and medical methods in use today.
>When he reached the topic of transexualism he said the accepted literature
>cites few cases of effective treatment other than surgery and little
>discernable pattern to those few.
>
>His position is the norm and not the exception within the psychiatric
>and counseling professions. Of course, that doesn't mean one won't be
>found tomorrow, but there isn't one now.
I am aware of this situation. However the lack of an effective
treatment strategy falling short of surgical intervention is not
tantamount to absence of a choice. As you are probably aware, the
technique of surgical alteration of the genitalia has a spotty record
of consumer satisfaction. The key point is that it is an option.
>>A convict forfeits numerous rights of citizenship. Thus I apply the
>>same standard to myself, as I do to everyone else.
>Mikhail! You usually use language more accurately than this. Shame!
>A convict forfeits many civil rights, but only in the former Soviet
>Union and similar regimes have prisoners ever lost their citizenship.
>Civil rights and the right of citizenship is not a synonymous equivalency.
I stand corrected. Not being a big fan of incarceration as a means of
retributive justice, and not even an advocate of the general principle,
I was thinking of Saint-Just and his pet idea that exile was the sole
admissible republican mode of punishment. Unfortunately, the benighted
US government is not about to emulate the enlightened regime of Fidel
Castro in this regard.
>However, even allowing for your inaccurate language one right a convict
>does not forfeit ever is equal protection of the law.
Some law. Clearly, many aspects of the constitutional law, such as the
right to free speech and assembly, the right to keep and bear arms, et
cetera, no longer apply.
>In other words it is written into law, in the U.S. at least, that one
>person may not be penalized more than another person over and above the
>penalty prescribed by the statute they have transgressed. If there is
>a prior medical condition that is under recognized medical treatment,
>and if denial of continued treatment will damage the convict's health,
>then under the equal protection clause the state is obliged to continue
>treatment at the minimal level needed to maintain the convict's health.
I agree. The hard question is to determine what constitutes his health.
>An illegal addiction to drugs is not (in most cases) equivalent to a
>medical deficiency, under the law, no matter how it was induced.
The illegality of addiction is a red herring. Supposing that the drug
dependency were perfectly legal (recall "the Twinkies defense"), but as
voluntary as the choice of a surgical alteration, there would still
arise a question of what constitutes the norm, in reference to which a
deficiency is construed as a deviation. It is very amusing to see the
same crowd that would normally espouse the orthodox Foucauldian party
line about the social construction of all norms, taking the high moral
ground in sustaining a conception so clearly divorced from the palpable
public consensus.
>What is important in such cases is the medical effect on the convict.
>If the there are genuine medical problems if treatment is denied then
>the convict's health is the controlling factor. Therefore those few
>cases where an illegal addiction is equivalent then the same rule has
>been applied to the addict, not the reverse. Usually this has been
>through a detox program (measured withdrawal) or through substitution
>of maintenance substances like methadone. The maintenance dose of
>estrogens is much smaller than the dosage a transexual requires during
>transition. This should not be a hardship on the state.
Certainly not as compared to the general expense of incarceration. But
we have been discussing the consistency of the fundamental principle,
as stupid and indefensible as it may be in the final analysis. Living
in Hollywood, it does not take a long stretch of the imagination to
come up with examples of demonstrable addiction to plastic surgery.
Should the state be obligated to give Michael Jackson the treatment to
which he has become accustomed, if and when he gets caught with his
pants down with the next pre-pubescent youth of his intimate
acquaintance?
>ciao!
>
> --Kathy
>
>Katherine Greene ka...@netcom.com
>Santa Clara, California
cordially, don't
Camilla Cracchiolo
: >Hormone medication, once a person has been on such medication, for a
: >transsexual is not optional.
: Only in the sense that the same can be said about an arbitrary chemical
: dependency. Your expectations of being catered to your perceived need
: in a punitive environment should not exceed those of any other addict.
Wait a minute. ALERT! Gross medical ignorance warning!
Hormone therapy, whether you think it's cosmetic or not, has *nothing* to
do with addiction. Addiction is the use of mind altering substances for
recreational purposes *and* where psychological and physical craving
develop *and* addictive behaviors are displayed.
There are many drugs which should not be abruptly withdrawn or adverse
physical symptoms will result. Just about all hormones are in this
catagory.
Transexualism is a very complex subject about which medical debate
rages. But transsexuals are their own thing; it's not an addiction, nor
is taking estrogen a display of addictive behavior.
Myself, I'm inclined to let transsexuals in prison have their hormones,
since we simply know far too little about why people have any sexual
orientation or what it means to really determine the necessity of the
drug. Besides, everyone is acting like estrogen costs a fortune: it
doesn't. It's very cheap, and the prison system could provide it at a
very minimal cost to the small number of transsexuals who are in prison.
But I'm far more concerned with protecting their physical safety from
other prisoners.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Camilla Cracchiolo, RN cam...@primenet.com
Shrine of the Cybernetic Madonna BBS 213-766-1356
"We Hate Rush Limbaugh *and* Newt Gingrich With A Passion"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Mike Steiner
wrote:
>>A convict forfeits numerous rights of citizenship. Thus I apply the
>>same standard to myself, as I do to everyone else.
>
>Mikhail! You usually use language more accurately than this. Shame!
>A convict forfeits many civil rights, but only in the former Soviet
>Union and similar regimes have prisoners ever lost their citizenship.
>Civil rights and the right of citizenship is not a synonymous equivalency.
>
>However, even allowing for your inaccurate language one right a convict
>does not forfeit ever is equal protection of the law.
As much as I disagree with his views, I have to agree with his terminology.
Losing some rights of citizenship is not the same as losing citizenship.
One of the rights of citizenship that a convict loses is the right to vote.
Mike Steiner
Cracchiolo) wrote:
>Myself, I'm inclined to let transsexuals in prison have their hormones,
>since we simply know far too little about why people have any sexual
>orientation or what it means to really determine the necessity of the
>drug.
One point of correction: Transsexuality is not a sexual orientation; it is
a gender identity. Sexual orientation is who you want to go to bed with or
who you love; gender identity is who you are.
Keith F. Lynch
Mike Steiner <ste...@best.com> wrote:
> I find it ironic that we have to put up with the stuff that Zeleny is
> spouting on the 50th anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz from
> the Germans.
How *DARE* you compare the deliberate murder of millions of innocent
people with the request that people with unusual lifestyles (or ordinary
lifestyles) should pay their own expenses, rather than sending the bill
to the taxpayers?
If you want to take female hormones, or smoke marijuana, or gamble, or
sail a boat around the world, or caculate a billion digits of pi, or
worship the god(dess)(es) of your choice, or attend law school, or travel
in outer space, or buy a house in the suburbs with a white picket fence,
that's fine with me. I don't care *what* you do.
But you do with with *your* money. Not mine. Comprende?
I don't recall sending you the bill for my net access, my CD collection,
my book collection, my groceries, or my travel. So don't send me the
bill for female hormones. Ok?
No wonder the government keeps everything from marijuana to prostitution
illegal -- they figure that if they were legal, people would start
demanding they get them for free, and would start screaming about Nazi
death camps if they were told to earn their own money before spending it.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> | M. Steiner | ____ Don't assume I'm straight. /\ |
> | ste...@best.com | \ / Don't assume I'm not. / \ |
> | | \/ ~~~~ |
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
I really don't care which you are. So long as you don't send me the bill
for it. Is that too much to ask? If you're straight and end up having
to pay child support, or if you're gay and end up having high medical
bills, or if you're solo and need to buy more tissues to clean up, *you*
pay. Not me. I have my own life to live and to pay for.
--
Keith Lynch, k...@access.digex.net
f p=2,3:2 s q=1 x "f f=3:2 q:f*f>p!'q s q=p#f" w:q p,?$x\8+1*8
Heather Downs
>> I find it ironic that we have to put up with the stuff that Zeleny is
>> spouting on the 50th anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz from
>> the Germans.
>How *DARE* you compare the deliberate murder of millions of innocent
>people with the request that people with unusual lifestyles (or ordinary
>lifestyles) should pay their own expenses, rather than sending the bill
>to the taxpayers?
>If you want to take female hormones, or smoke marijuana, or gamble, or
>sail a boat around the world, or caculate a billion digits of pi, or
>worship the god(dess)(es) of your choice, or attend law school, or travel
>in outer space, or buy a house in the suburbs with a white picket fence,
>that's fine with me. I don't care *what* you do.
>But you do with with *your* money. Not mine. Comprende?
It sounds like your gripe is more with the fact that prisoners are
given free medication in general, than with anything related to this
particular case. Unless you think that transsexuals deserve fewer
rights than other people, or you have special proof that you know
more about medicine than the AMA, the APA, and the particular doctors
who prescribe hormones in the first place, I suggest that you lobby
your elected officials to cut off *all* drugs to prison inmates, instead
of harping on this one trivial issue. A Usenet post, according to my
newsreader, costs "hundreds if not thousands of dollars" to send all
over the globe, and I'll bet a good chuck of that tab is picked up
by American taxpayers. Thus, this thread has already cost much more
than hormones for transsexual inmates would in a hundred years, and
the most economically sound thing to do would be to let it die.
UNLESS, of course, all that economic stuff was just a distraction, and
your real purpose was to let us all know that you think transsexuals
are really yucky. Which is it?
Heather Downs
--
"The government should not discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation."
-- Steve Dasbach, National Libertarian Party Chair, January 13, 1995.
Mike Steiner
(Michael Zeleny) wrote:
>As I said before, the prisoner is entitled to such medications as
>might be required to maintain his health, no more and no less.
>Estrogen contributes nothing to that purpose.
PROVE IT!
>: Oh, Mikhail, how precious! What you object to is that I fail to
>: give a properly dutiful imitation of your stereotypes, fess up.
>
>On the contrary, I like aggressive and exceptional women. You,
>however, are nothing of the sort. Your stereotype is an ancient one,
>intimately familiar from the tales of a Thousand and One Nights, as
>it is from the countless millennia of Chinese palace history. Your
>fit to the part of the invidious eunuch with a chip on his shoulder
>is letter-perfect, spanning from the compulsion to vainglorious
>boasts and impotent threats, to the habit of cliquish and petty
>intrigue against your betters and the obsessive preoccupation with
>anal penetration, periodically punctuated by spiteful scatological
>denunciation of normally equipped males. In reading your poisonous
>screeds, there is no escaping from the image of Joan Crawford with a
>five o'clock shadow.
Whereas you fit the stereotype of the self-righteous, sanctimonious, smug,
close-minded know-it-all. You fall into the same image as Jesse Helms, Pat
Robertson, Randall Terry, Tom Metzger, and Joe McCarthy.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| M. Steiner | ____ Don't assume I'm straight. /\ |
| ste...@best.com | \ / Don't assume I'm not. / \ |
| | \/ ~~~~ |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael Zeleny
rel...@netcom.com (Heather Downs) writes:
>zel...@oak.math.ucla.edu (Michael Zeleny) writes:
>>You are lying. He said "if you want", not "if you need".
>>The Usenet is a public venue.
>>Estrogen pills are a private indulgence.
>>I trust that you are sharp enough to tell the difference.
>You are undoubtedly either the most clueless, or the most disingenuous,
>person I've encountered here. And that's quite a feat, considering
>you're going up against Ted, Buddy, the 1001 Incarnations of Margo,
>etc.
What a witty rebuttal! Have you considered a lucrative career as
a speechwriter for Newt Gingrich?
>Please keep your slobbering ignorance out of a.p.h; we're busy
>arguing about important stuff like the origin of lambda.
I never enter your lair, until and unless I get invited by your minions.
If you want me to stay out, just abstain from addressing me.
>Heather Downs
Joan Tine
reasons which will become obvious...if morbid curiosity lurks,
a sample was:)
: Perhaps we can agree that the intent of the American penal theory
: encompasses the provision of a minimal level of medical care to the
: prisoners. The gravamen of this exchance concerns the upper bound of
: the jailer's obligation to his clients. Having furnished examples of
: cases I consider to fall outside of his range of responsibility, I
: eagerly await an expert ruling on this subject from my interlocutor.
Your interlocutor is reminded of the definition of an "Intellectual":
a man educated beyond his understanding. You can save your thumb, your
tongue, and the soggy edges of your dictionary: you're just wasting
your time on wrapping paper for a flawed argument. If a prisoner has a
pre-diagnosed medical condition for which s/he is being treated, it is
beyond the mandate of the jailer to second-guess the doctor.
(I continued to rant at some length in much the same vein, and given
an early Spring, might have continued till the Equinox without getting
up for a robe.)
-----begin message-----
Michael said:
: in spite of having grown up in an environment
: where my facial traits had a tendency to upset the masses when they
: first noticed them, and continued to elicit vivid resentment therefrom
: even at a safe distance, I never came to regard surgical enhancement
: of my deviant physiognomy as an adequate response to its perpetual
: public stigmatization. Perhaps this is a indication of my lamentable
: constitutional shortcoming in victimary self-awareness,
Just for a start, and based only on the facts you describe, *I'd* say
it is an indication that you are not a transsexual. You may be
ugly, but that doesn't mean you know ANYTHING about the
personal feelings of, or appropriate therapy for, transsexuals.
I'm sorry if you're deformed, but that is no reason for you to
take out your bile on the gender dysphoric.
Nor, and I say it in deep sorrow, for them to take theirs out on you.
And I have been.
Have you considered that it may be that your own facial disfigurement
is having a much greater impact on your life than you have given
it credit for? You are unquestionably a powerful thinker, but
some things you just can't think your way around, you have to ACT.
Consider reconstruction...it might change your life by changing your
daily feedback. Perhaps you feel so much hate because people reject
you. People are, at best, only people.
You can't expect too much from them in casual contact, and if you
really are dissatisfied with your effect on them, _must_ it be a denial
of your integrity to alter your face? Given what you have showed me
here, you probably think that most people have similar intelligence
to you...similar covers a wide parcel of land, but similar just
the same. But they probably aren't very close in thinking power,
and they DON'T have your experience...and people are so
bad at compassion. Imagining them in the place of someone who is
not fortunate, or priviledged.
Ours is a culture heavily influenced by the Calvinists...God sends
luck and riches to the Elect. They actually _believe_ that, and,
sadly, a lot of the unlucky ones do too. It never stops hurting.
Ultimately, it can be just too much work to remind ourselves that
our inner worth is what counts. We can become so sad that we become
poisoned by it. It is better to act than to continue to rationalize
then. It is not a defeat, it is an acknowledgement that there is
such a thing as Randomness...and we can master it.
Wouldn't the change in their reaction to you make it worth the
experiment? Physiognomy is the accident of birth...it is no more
related to what you are inside than any other random event.
It isn't YOU.
I think I understand better why you keep thinking I'm arguing
for an entitlement for SRS, and what it made you feel, since
you have no 'entitlement' for corrective plastic surgery, and,
although you have withstood the pain, not having it has blighted
your life. You are reading through that pain, and how otherwise?
The only place I know of where you can get SRS paid for isn't in
America, but in Scandanavia. (Although I hear rumors about MN.)
What I was arguing for was for the right of prisoners to continue
with their medication. That was all.
Transsexuals generally face a lot of challenges, and the first
one is securing the procedures which allow them to feel like
non-freaks. The economics are as brutal as one might expect,
and unless you work for Allstate or Met Life, few underwriters
are likely to cover it. For any procdure classified as "cosmetic"
or "optional" the same story. No. No to you, because your pain
is not "approved". The lifetime agony you suffer, the loss of
position, of affection, of place, all are "minor", and you are
expected to "stand" them. And you have. How could your world-
view be other than it is? The forge-fire didn't burn Vulcan,
either....
I feel sad and tired. Tired because I'm writing this after
a point-by-nitpicking-point continuation of the nattering we've
been doing for the past few, and sad because it was only in
proofreading my words that the full import of what you said
about yourself sunk in.
In the lines below this I repeatedly accused you of arguing
in bad faith, of intellectual dishonesty, of meanness,
and of being a bully. I think I understand better why in
some faiths it is such a sin to attribute motive. Nothing
causes such a gamma-proof selective blindness.
Memorandum for record: when you feel drained, tired,
bereft of enthusiasm, it may sometimes mean that at some
deep level you know you're on the wrong track. As was
I in prolonging an argument which has no purpose: I
wasn't so foolish as to think I'd ever convince you. For
one thing, there seem to be too many years between us, for
another, we are defining each other in ways which preclude it.
For a third, we are too much alike, certainly in our histories.
I have done you no good in insulting you...there is nothing
wrong with your ability to think, it is obvious you don't
need to be "awakened" to a higher moral state, to a greater
degree of mental rigor, or to a thicker concentration of adrenaline
in your red stuff. For some reason, I have been granted
something special...you told me a real truth... y'allmost never
encounter them from strangers, certainly not from acrimonious
ones.
Of _course_ you have had to study hard, and to win at all
costs. (I've just met Sanjirmil Srith Terklaren in real life,
I feel.) You will continue to strengthen your mind, and
the few forensic lapses will be corrected as you age...but
the motive force...the reason which has sent so many young men
to philosoply remains the same: the inexplicability of so much
of real life. Not moral laziness to face the give and take, but the
honest weariness of a human soul who has had _enough_ thoughtless
rejection and unearned buffeting at the hands of his fellows.
I've never met a Black Belt (and I know a few of 'em) who
didn't start out whatever he happens to blackbelt around in out
of the desire to be free of some deep fear or pain. The
same goes for the handful of men I know who truly study
philosophy. They looked for answers for the endless God
Damned PAIN they were plunged into, and the way human blood
is poured into the gutter as a joke.
Fair is fair, and I have to tell you how this post was to end:
I abdicated the discussion absolutely. Granted, I called you
a bore, and went on in my usual style at some (who's kidding who?
at GREAT) length that it was a fatiguing and futile laundry-list
of formal fallacies and straw man arguments, and I was tired of
it, and was bowing out. And when I say tired, I mean _beat_. I
just couldn't muster any energy to go on...it wasn't any fun
any more. On a self-awareness scale of 1-10, I'd give that feeling
a generous 4, and probably bribe the judges.
Now I see what I was missing. Nobody argues as well and as tenaciously
as you do over something as ephemeral as the medication for the
less-than-1000 incarcerated post-op TS's in America. You were not
being a prick, you were speaking from your center.... There was
a lot more here than I took time to perceive, and you were dead on
target in saying that THAT is one "feminine" skill I can stand to
work on. (Oh, yes, after it is explained to me, I can see the
handwriting on the wall quite clearly, thanks very much for holding
the stepladder.)
I wish I had something constructive to offer you. I assume that
you have about as much chance of dashing off a draught for
some Beverly Hills aestheticist/quarryman as the average person.
You understand what it is to live with a condition you can never
forget. Additionally, _your_ condition is reinforced by others,
while most of _us_ can blend in for a long time. We lose privilege
and respect when we transition, you have been denied it from birth.
We are truly a species of apes.
I send you my respect, my hope, and my love, and the _certainty_
that you can change the things you _decide_ to.
Hail, valiant and beloved enemy.
Mike Steiner
(Michael Zeleny) wrote:
>In article <3g72rk$m...@news.primenet.com>
>cam...@primenet.com (Camilla Cracchiolo) writes:
>
>>Michael Zeleny (zel...@oak.math.ucla.edu) wrote:
>
>>>>Hormone medication, once a person has been on such medication, for a
>>>>transsexual is not optional.
>
>>>Only in the sense that the same can be said about an arbitrary chemical
>>>dependency. Your expectations of being catered to your perceived need
>>>in a punitive environment should not exceed those of any other addict.
>
>>Wait a minute. ALERT! Gross medical ignorance warning!
>>
>>Hormone therapy, whether you think it's cosmetic or not, has *nothing* to
>>do with addiction. Addiction is the use of mind altering substances for
>>recreational purposes *and* where psychological and physical craving
>>develop *and* addictive behaviors are displayed.
>
>distinction between addiction and other forms of chemical dependency.
Addiction *is* chemical dependency!
>>There are many drugs which should not be abruptly withdrawn or adverse
>>physical symptoms will result. Just about all hormones are in this
>>catagory.
>
>If the adverse effects of abrupt withdrawal are sufficiently grave to
>imperil the convict's health, he should be allowed to taper off his
^^<--*SHE* *HER*-->^^^
>use of the substance in question.
Get a clue.
>>Transexualism is a very complex subject about which medical debate
>>rages. But transsexuals are their own thing; it's not an addiction, nor
>>is taking estrogen a display of addictive behavior.
>
>Your point is well taken, but it changes nothing in my argument.
It seems that nothing changes anything in your argument. Your mind is made
up and please don't confuse you with any facts. You are the one who
introduced the analogy of addiction; now that your analogy has been shown to
be invalid, you whine that it is immaterial.
>>Myself, I'm inclined to let transsexuals in prison have their hormones,
>>since we simply know far too little about why people have any sexual
>>orientation or what it means to really determine the necessity of the
>>drug. Besides, everyone is acting like estrogen costs a fortune: it
>>doesn't. It's very cheap, and the prison system could provide it at a
>>very minimal cost to the small number of transsexuals who are in prison.
>
>There are two principled considerations you have failed to take into
>account. One is the scarcity of resources, while another is the
>incompatibility of punishment and the pursuit of happiness. To the
>extent that estrogen therapy is unnecessary for the inmate's physical
>health, it has no place in a penitentiary.
YOU HAVE FAILED TO SHOW THAT IT IS NOT NECESSARY FOR THE INMATE'S PHYSICAL
HEALTH. Oh, yes; I almost forgot, facts are irrelevant to you.
Bruce Garrett
[Says, in part, to Zeleny...]
JT> Also, I suspect that there is a certain component of sophomoric
JT> glee that you have "made" someone pay attention to you, after
JT> the fashion of most undergraduates who are still drunk with
JT> the notion of adults actually listening to them.
I would like to thank you for allowing me to witness one of the
most dazzling dressing downs of this bellicose bigot pest I've ever seen
on the net. Maybe others who have wandered this crackpot's haunts have
seen as good or better...but I am awed. Thank you.
JT> First we train your mind...life will train your soul, and memory your
JT> character.
This is a fascinating line...
--
-Bruce Garrett \ finger bru...@access.digex.net
Cockeysville, MD. / \ When the bird and the bird book disagree, believe
the bird
Michael Zeleny
bru...@access.digex.net (Bruce Garrett) writes:
: k...@access.digex.net (Keith F. Lynch) dares...
::: I find it ironic that we have to put up with the stuff that Zeleny is
::: spouting on the 50th anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz from
::: the Germans.
:: How *DARE* you compare the deliberate murder of millions of innocent
:: people with the request that people with unusual lifestyles (or ordinary
:: lifestyles) should pay their own expenses, rather than sending the bill
:: to the taxpayers?
: I think the irony here springs largely from Zeleny's consuming
: hatred towards homosexuals, which resemble in just about every meaningful
: way, save the target of choice, the antisemitism of the brownshirts. The
: only thing Zeleny would mind about shoveling the lot of us into the ovens
: is paying for a share of cost of the fuel.
Why would that be a consideration when your "lot" is so combustible?
Not that there is any excuse for wasting real sentiment on a group
distinguished by choosing an expression of love as barren and bereft
of issue as the crematoria of Auschwitz. Contempt is the strongest
emotion you merit, and the only one you will ever elicit from me.
: When I started seeing his name appear in my news reader, so soon
: after the remembrances, I reckoned they must have made him twichy...eager
: to log on and show the world that hate still has dominion as far as he is
: concerned, no matter what other words may have been recently spoken over
: the ashes of the innocent. On the other hand...maybe he's just been
: building a reserve of bile up and just had to let go now and it was just
: coincidence that it came when it did, when the images of the ovens and the
: tracks leading to them were so fresh in our minds. Life is full of the
: little ironies...
Were you commemorating your colleagues who succumbed during the Night
of the Long Knives? Too bad about those snappy uniforms -- but not to
worry, the very same ideology lives on in your neighborhood leather bar.
: --
: -Bruce Garrett \ finger bru...@access.digex.net
: Cockeysville, MD. / \ 667: The Neighbor of the Beast
Mike Steiner
(Michael Zeleny) wrote:
>In article <relayerD...@netcom.com>
>rel...@netcom.com (Heather Downs) writes:
>
>::: I find it ironic that we have to put up with the stuff that Zeleny is
>::: spouting on the 50th anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz from
>::: the Germans.
>
>:: How *DARE* you compare the deliberate murder of millions of innocent
>:: people with the request that people with unusual lifestyles (or ordinary
>:: lifestyles) should pay their own expenses, rather than sending the bill
>:: to the taxpayers?
>::
>:: If you want to take female hormones, or smoke marijuana, or gamble, or
>:: sail a boat around the world, or caculate a billion digits of pi, or
>:: worship the god(dess)(es) of your choice, or attend law school, or travel
>:: in outer space, or buy a house in the suburbs with a white picket fence,
>:: that's fine with me. I don't care *what* you do.
>::
>:: But you do with with *your* money. Not mine. Comprende?
>
>: It sounds like your gripe is more with the fact that prisoners are
>: given free medication in general, than with anything related to this
>: particular case.
>
Yes, he said "want," but both of you are lying by pretending that a need is
a want. Everything that he wrote from ",or smoke" to "fence" is irrelevant
to this discussion.
>HD:
>: Unless you think that transsexuals deserve fewer
>: rights than other people, or you have special proof that you know
>: more about medicine than the AMA, the APA, and the particular doctors
>: who prescribe hormones in the first place, I suggest that you lobby
>: your elected officials to cut off *all* drugs to prison inmates, instead
>: of harping on this one trivial issue. A Usenet post, according to my
>: newsreader, costs "hundreds if not thousands of dollars" to send all
>: over the globe, and I'll bet a good chuck of that tab is picked up
>: by American taxpayers. Thus, this thread has already cost much more
>: than hormones for transsexual inmates would in a hundred years, and
>: the most economically sound thing to do would be to let it die.
>
>The Usenet is a public venue.
>
>Estrogen pills are a private indulgence.
>
>I trust that you are sharp enough to tell the difference.
Your access to the internet is a private indulgence; I see that *you* aren't
sharp enough to tell the difference.
>HD:
>: UNLESS, of course, all that economic stuff was just a distraction, and
>: your real purpose was to let us all know that you think transsexuals
>: are really yucky. Which is it?
>
>Shall I make it easy for you? You are hereby declared the officially
>designated Usenet Victim of the Month. Now go paint a "Kick Me" sign
>and staple it to your spotted arse. That ought to qualify you for an
>NEA grant that would cover any number of happy pills of your choice.
And you are hereby declared the officially designated Usenet Fuckwit of the
Month. Here's a scroll; stick in in your head to fill the void that is
currently there.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| M. Steiner | ____ Don't assume I'm straight. /\ |
| ste...@best.com | \ / Don't assume I'm not. / \ |
| | \/ ~~~~ |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mike Steiner
(Michael Zeleny) wrote:
>In article <steiner.1...@news.best.com>
>ste...@best.com (Mike Steiner) writes:
>
>: zel...@oak.math.ucla.edu (Michael Zeleny) wrote:
>
>:: As I said before, the prisoner is entitled to such medications as
>:: might be required to maintain his health, no more and no less.
>:: Estrogen contributes nothing to that purpose.
>
>: PROVE IT!
>
>medical practice is to attempt to dissuade the soi-disant transsexual
>from taking such measures. Sex change is something you evidently
>desire very strongly, but there is not a shred of evidence that you
>need it for continued existence and physical well-being.
I say again: PROVE IT! Show us where it is professional consensus. Your
restatement in different words of your own thesis is not proof. You sound
just like a Bible-thumper saying that the Bible is inerrant because the
Bible says it is, but instead of citing the Bible, you cite yourself. At
least the Bible is good literature and much more entertaining to read than
you are--and it does contain some historical facts and accuracies, which is
something lacking from your turgid prose.
Michael Zeleny
: k...@access.digex.net (Keith F. Lynch) writes:
:: Mike Steiner <ste...@best.com> wrote:
MS:
::: I find it ironic that we have to put up with the stuff that Zeleny is
::: spouting on the 50th anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz from
::: the Germans.
KFL:
:: How *DARE* you compare the deliberate murder of millions of innocent
:: people with the request that people with unusual lifestyles (or ordinary
:: lifestyles) should pay their own expenses, rather than sending the bill
:: to the taxpayers?
::
:: If you want to take female hormones, or smoke marijuana, or gamble, or
:: sail a boat around the world, or caculate a billion digits of pi, or
:: worship the god(dess)(es) of your choice, or attend law school, or travel
:: in outer space, or buy a house in the suburbs with a white picket fence,
:: that's fine with me. I don't care *what* you do.
::
:: But you do with with *your* money. Not mine. Comprende?
HD:
: It sounds like your gripe is more with the fact that prisoners are
: given free medication in general, than with anything related to this
: particular case.
You are lying. He said "if you want", not "if you need".
HD:
: Unless you think that transsexuals deserve fewer
: rights than other people, or you have special proof that you know
: more about medicine than the AMA, the APA, and the particular doctors
: who prescribe hormones in the first place, I suggest that you lobby
: your elected officials to cut off *all* drugs to prison inmates, instead
: of harping on this one trivial issue. A Usenet post, according to my
: newsreader, costs "hundreds if not thousands of dollars" to send all
: over the globe, and I'll bet a good chuck of that tab is picked up
: by American taxpayers. Thus, this thread has already cost much more
: than hormones for transsexual inmates would in a hundred years, and
: the most economically sound thing to do would be to let it die.
The Usenet is a public venue.
Estrogen pills are a private indulgence.
I trust that you are sharp enough to tell the difference.
HD:
: UNLESS, of course, all that economic stuff was just a distraction, and
: your real purpose was to let us all know that you think transsexuals
: are really yucky. Which is it?
Shall I make it easy for you? You are hereby declared the officially
designated Usenet Victim of the Month. Now go paint a "Kick Me" sign
and staple it to your spotted arse. That ought to qualify you for an
NEA grant that would cover any number of happy pills of your choice.
: Heather Downs
: --
: "The government should not discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation."
: -- Steve Dasbach, National Libertarian Party Chair, January 13, 1995.
cordially, don't
Miguel Cruz
Keith F. Lynch <k...@access.digex.net> wrote:
>I really don't care which you are. So long as you don't send me the bill
>for it. Is that too much to ask? If you're straight and end up having
>to pay child support, or if you're gay and end up having high medical
>bills, or if you're solo and need to buy more tissues to clean up, *you*
>pay. Not me. I have my own life to live and to pay for.
Wouldn't it be great if we lived in a world where people simple-minded
enough to think that each individual's costs of existence in an
organized society could be neatly tabulated and sent to them on a new
paper-saving double-sided monthly bill... would actually be right?
I'm paying for your fire department. You're paying for my Seinfeld. I'm
paying for your drunk driving case. You're paying for my toxic waste spill
cleanup. I'm paying for your FDIC insurance. You're paying for my I-80
westbound repairs next 35 miles. I'm paying for your air traffic
controllers. You're paying for my congressperson's oaken desk. I'm paying
for your leukemia research. You're paying for my Thanksgiving Day Parade.
I'm paying for your rural telephone service. You're paying for my $49
competitive upgrade to WordPerfect 6.0. I'm paying for your Saturday night
stay airfare discount. You're paying for my 411 call from a pay phone.
I'm paying for your $3.95 ribeye steak all-you-can-eat buffet at Caesar's
Palace. You're paying for my Nutrition Facts information on the back of
this box of Original Honey Bunches of Oats breakfast cereal. I'm paying
for your usenet post in my neck of the woods. You're paying for my usenet
post in Greenbelt, Maryland, USA.
Feel free to tear my argument to shreds by attacking these examples
individually. I'll be very impressed with your cleverness.
miguel
Mike Steiner
(Michael Zeleny) wrote:
>Please explain the basis for your assertion that a person's gender is
>inherent, and is not a matter of choice.
That assertation was in reply to your assertation that gender is a matter of
choice; therefore, the onus of explanation is upon you.
>>>You are begging the question of need. Justify your claim. Bear in
>>>mind that legitimate prescriptions are very easy to come by outside of
>>>the Big House. I could walk out of my house tomorrow morning with a
>>>thousand dollars in my pocket, coming back several hours later with a
>>>wide assortment of narcotics, sedatives, and stimulants, all of which
>>>would have been properly prescribed to me by licensed physicians.
>
>>Sure you could--and many of the physicians who prescribed them could be
>>convicted of malpractice. Just because you have the ability to bribe
>>someone to illegally prescribe medication to you does not in any way
>>whatsoever prove that hormmones prescribed for transsexuals falls under
>>that same category.
>
>It is hardly necessary to bribe anyone. Psychoactive chemicals are so
>widely prescribed in this country, that one needs only to phrase his
>complaint in a way mimicking the standard account in the medical
>texts, to gain legal access to numerous entertaining substances. As
>regards your disclaimer, the burden of proof falls on the accusing
>party. If you claim that prison physicians are being remiss in their
>duty to minister to the health of their charges, it is incumbent upon
>you to justify your accusation.
You're right; the burden of proof is upon the accusing party, and depsite
your attempts at obfuscation, it is you who is the accusing party.
>>You have maintained that transsexual prisoners should not be allowed their
>>hormones. IT IS INCUMBENT UPON YOU TO JUSTIFY THAT OPINION. I AM WAITING
>>FOR YOUR JUSTIFICATION!
>
>I never heard of anyone being forbidden the use of their own hormones.
>It is only the external chemical supplements that are in question here.
CUT OUT YOUR BULLSHIT AND STOP EVADING!
Mike Steiner
Lynch) wrote:
>In article <steiner.1...@news.best.com>,
>Mike Steiner <ste...@best.com> wrote:
>> I find it ironic that we have to put up with the stuff that Zeleny is
>> spouting on the 50th anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz from
>> the Germans.
>
>How *DARE* you compare the deliberate murder of millions of innocent
>people with the request that people with unusual lifestyles (or ordinary
>lifestyles) should pay their own expenses, rather than sending the bill
>to the taxpayers?
I dare because I had relatives who were murdered by the Nazis, and I see
definite parallels between the way that the Nazis talked about Jews and
homosexuals and the way that you and Zeleny talk about transsexuals. I DARE
MAKE THE COMPARISON BECAUSE IT IS A VALID AND ACCURATE COMPARISON.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| M. Steiner | ____ Don't assume I'm straight. /\ |
| ste...@best.com | \ / Don't assume I'm not. / \ |
| | \/ ~~~~ |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael Zeleny
jo...@snugbug.cts.com (Joan Tine) writes:
:: in spite of having grown up in an environment
:: where my facial traits had a tendency to upset the masses when they
:: first noticed them, and continued to elicit vivid resentment therefrom
:: even at a safe distance, I never came to regard surgical enhancement
:: of my deviant physiognomy as an adequate response to its perpetual
:: public stigmatization. Perhaps this is a indication of my lamentable
:: constitutional shortcoming in victimary self-awareness,
: Just for a start, and based only on the facts you describe, *I'd* say
: it is an indication that you are not a transsexual. You may be
: ugly, but that doesn't mean you know ANYTHING about the
: personal feelings of, or appropriate therapy for, transsexuals.
: I'm sorry if you're deformed, but that is no reason for you to
: take out your bile on the gender dysphoric.
:
: Nor, and I say it in deep sorrow, for them to take theirs out on you.
:
: And I have been.
:
: Have you considered that it may be that your own facial disfigurement
: is having a much greater impact on your life than you have given
: it credit for?
You have misunderstood my point, which is entirely my fault for having
made it in an obscure and roundabout fashion. My facial disfigurement
amounts to no more than the presence of characteristic ethnic traits,
which suffice to elicit unprovoked attempts at manual rearrangement
thereof from a significant class of natives of orthodox descent, an
all too common experience among certain ex-Soviet ethnic minorities,
which nonetheless has failed to leave me with a fine-tuned sense of
entitlement to compensation for the alleged accidents of my birth.
Now feel free to revisit your wrath on my person.
Michael Zeleny
: In Article <3gftab$j...@saba.info.ucla.edu>,
: zel...@oak.math.ucla.edu (Michael Zeleny) wrote:
:: Please explain the basis for your assertion that a person's gender is
:: inherent, and is not a matter of choice.
: That assertation was in reply to your assertation that gender is a matter of
: choice; therefore, the onus of explanation is upon you.
I said nothing of the sort. Indeed, I have argued that biological
gender is a necessary and ineluctable property of the individual
belonging to a dioecious species. I have no idea of how you construe
your idea of gender in a way that evidently allows it to deviate from
the genetically determined aspects of your anatomy.
:::: You are begging the question of need. Justify your claim. Bear in
:::: mind that legitimate prescriptions are very easy to come by outside of
:::: the Big House. I could walk out of my house tomorrow morning with a
:::: thousand dollars in my pocket, coming back several hours later with a
:::: wide assortment of narcotics, sedatives, and stimulants, all of which
:::: would have been properly prescribed to me by licensed physicians.
::: Sure you could--and many of the physicians who prescribed them could be
::: convicted of malpractice. Just because you have the ability to bribe
::: someone to illegally prescribe medication to you does not in any way
::: whatsoever prove that hormmones prescribed for transsexuals falls under
::: that same category.
:: It is hardly necessary to bribe anyone. Psychoactive chemicals are so
:: widely prescribed in this country, that one needs only to phrase his
:: complaint in a way mimicking the standard account in the medical
:: texts, to gain legal access to numerous entertaining substances. As
:: regards your disclaimer, the burden of proof falls on the accusing
:: party. If you claim that prison physicians are being remiss in their
:: duty to minister to the health of their charges, it is incumbent upon
:: you to justify your accusation.
: You're right; the burden of proof is upon the accusing party, and depsite
: your attempts at obfuscation, it is you who is the accusing party.
On the contrary, this is one of the rare occasions when I find myself
in agreement with the status quo. The prison physicians are doing
their job. I see no evidence to support your claim that they are not
doing it properly.
::: You have maintained that transsexual prisoners should not be allowed their
::: hormones. IT IS INCUMBENT UPON YOU TO JUSTIFY THAT OPINION. I AM WAITING
::: FOR YOUR JUSTIFICATION!
:: I never heard of anyone being forbidden the use of their own hormones.
:: It is only the external chemical supplements that are in question here.
: CUT OUT YOUR BULLSHIT AND STOP EVADING!
There has been no evasion. I have stated my argument clearly and
repeatedly. I have no further interest in catering to your paranoid
fantasies of unjust victimization, nor in responding in kind to your
flaccid opprobrium. This topic will be better served by discussion
with intelligent and well-balanced interlocutors in other, more
suitable venues.
Michael Zeleny
: In Article <3gid0p$f...@saba.info.ucla.edu>,
: zel...@oak.math.ucla.edu (Michael Zeleny) wrote:
:: As I said before, the prisoner is entitled to such medications as
:: might be required to maintain his health, no more and no less.
:: Estrogen contributes nothing to that purpose.
: PROVE IT!
It is a simple restatement of professional consensus. The standard
medical practice is to attempt to dissuade the soi-disant transsexual
from taking such measures. Sex change is something you evidently
desire very strongly, but there is not a shred of evidence that you
need it for continued existence and physical well-being.
cordially, don't
Willia...@vos.stratus.com
>>Myself, I'm inclined to let transsexuals in prison have their hormones,
>>since we simply know far too little about why people have any sexual
>>orientation or what it means to really determine the necessity of the
>>drug.
>One point of correction: Transsexuality is not a sexual orientation; it is
>a gender identity. Sexual orientation is who you want to go to bed with or
>who you love; gender identity is who you are.
Whatever it may be, I don't believe that it's a general welfare issue
to ensure that transexuals recieve their hormone pills.
If by chance they can have someone deliver these pills to them, without
making the tax payer fork over the cash, I have no problem with that
scenerio.
--Bill M.
Bruce Garrett
>> I find it ironic that we have to put up with the stuff that Zeleny is
>> spouting on the 50th anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz from
>> the Germans.
KL> How *DARE* you compare the deliberate murder of millions of innocent
KL> people with the request that people with unusual lifestyles (or ordinary
KL> lifestyles) should pay their own expenses, rather than sending the bill
KL> to the taxpayers?
I think the irony here springs largely from Zeleny's consuming
hatred towards homosexuals, which resemble in just about every meaningful
way, save the target of choice, the antisemitism of the brownshirts. The
only thing Zeleny would mind about shoveling the lot of us into the ovens
is paying for a share of cost of the fuel.
When I started seeing his name appear in my news reader, so soon
after the remembrances, I reckoned they must have made him twichy...eager
to log on and show the world that hate still has dominion as far as he is
concerned, no matter what other words may have been recently spoken over
the ashes of the innocent. On the other hand...maybe he's just been
building a reserve of bile up and just had to let go now and it was just
coincidence that it came when it did, when the images of the ovens and the
tracks leading to them were so fresh in our minds. Life is full of the
little ironies...
Heather Downs
>You are lying. He said "if you want", not "if you need".
>The Usenet is a public venue.
>Estrogen pills are a private indulgence.
>I trust that you are sharp enough to tell the difference.
You are undoubtedly either the most clueless, or the most disingenuous,
person I've encountered here. And that's quite a feat, considering
you're going up against Ted, Buddy, the 1001 Incarnations of Margo,
etc. Please keep your slobbering ignorance out of a.p.h; we're busy
arguing about important stuff like the origin of lambda.
Heather Downs
Mike Steiner
(Michael Zeleny) wrote:
>In article <steiner.1...@news.best.com>
>ste...@best.com (Mike Steiner) writes:
>
>: In Article <3gftab$j...@saba.info.ucla.edu>,
>: zel...@oak.math.ucla.edu (Michael Zeleny) wrote:
>
>:: Please explain the basis for your assertion that a person's gender is
>:: inherent, and is not a matter of choice.
>
>: That assertation was in reply to your assertation that gender is a matter of
>: choice; therefore, the onus of explanation is upon you.
>
>I said nothing of the sort. Indeed, I have argued that biological
>gender is a necessary and ineluctable property of the individual
>belonging to a dioecious species. I have no idea of how you construe
>your idea of gender in a way that evidently allows it to deviate from
>the genetically determined aspects of your anatomy.
Because I know the difference between sex and gender. Gender is what is in
your head; sex is what is between your legs and in your chromosomes. As
Hillel said, "go and study."
>::: Sure you could--and many of the physicians who prescribed them could be
>::: convicted of malpractice. Just because you have the ability to bribe
>::: someone to illegally prescribe medication to you does not in any way
>::: whatsoever prove that hormmones prescribed for transsexuals falls under
>::: that same category.
>
>:: It is hardly necessary to bribe anyone. Psychoactive chemicals are so
>:: widely prescribed in this country, that one needs only to phrase his
>:: complaint in a way mimicking the standard account in the medical
>:: texts, to gain legal access to numerous entertaining substances. As
>:: regards your disclaimer, the burden of proof falls on the accusing
>:: party. If you claim that prison physicians are being remiss in their
>:: duty to minister to the health of their charges, it is incumbent upon
>:: you to justify your accusation.
>
>: You're right; the burden of proof is upon the accusing party, and depsite
>: your attempts at obfuscation, it is you who is the accusing party.
>
>On the contrary, this is one of the rare occasions when I find myself
>in agreement with the status quo. The prison physicians are doing
>their job. I see no evidence to support your claim that they are not
>doing it properly.
The status quo is that physicians prescribe hormones for transsexuals,
despite your absurd claim to the contrary.
>::: You have maintained that transsexual prisoners should not be allowed their
>::: hormones. IT IS INCUMBENT UPON YOU TO JUSTIFY THAT OPINION. I AM WAITING
>::: FOR YOUR JUSTIFICATION!
>
>:: I never heard of anyone being forbidden the use of their own hormones.
>:: It is only the external chemical supplements that are in question here.
>
>: CUT OUT YOUR BULLSHIT AND STOP EVADING!
>
>There has been no evasion. I have stated my argument clearly and
>repeatedly.
In a word: bullshit.
>I have no further interest in catering to your paranoid
>fantasies of unjust victimization, nor in responding in kind to your
>flaccid opprobrium.
Translation: "Steiner got me and I'm too much of a coward and hypocrite to
admit it."
>This topic will be better served by discussion
>with intelligent and well-balanced interlocutors in other, more
>suitable venues.
Oh? I must assume that means that you're withdrawing from the discussion in
order to let someone intelligent and well balanced replace you. You have
shown little intelligence, an no sense of mental equilibrium thus far.
Mike Steiner
Garrett) wrote:
> k...@access.digex.net (Keith F. Lynch) dares...
>
>>> I find it ironic that we have to put up with the stuff that Zeleny is
>>> spouting on the 50th anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz from
>>> the Germans.
>
>KL> How *DARE* you compare the deliberate murder of millions of innocent
>KL> people with the request that people with unusual lifestyles (or ordinary
>KL> lifestyles) should pay their own expenses, rather than sending the bill
>KL> to the taxpayers?
>
> I think the irony here springs largely from Zeleny's consuming
>hatred towards homosexuals, which resemble in just about every meaningful
>way, save the target of choice, the antisemitism of the brownshirts. The
>only thing Zeleny would mind about shoveling the lot of us into the ovens
>is paying for a share of cost of the fuel.
Well, don't forget that homosexuals were even lower in the estimation of the
Nazis than we Jews were. However, thus far, I haven't seen any hatred
towards homosexuals from Zeleny; I have seen hatred of transsexuals from
him.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| M. Steiner | ____ Don't assume I'm straight. /\ |
| ste...@best.com | \ / Don't assume I'm not. / \ |
| | \/ ~~~~ |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael Zeleny
:In Article <3gkrgp$f...@saba.info.ucla.edu>,
:zel...@oak.math.ucla.edu (Michael Zeleny) wrote:
::In article <relayerD...@netcom.com>
::rel...@netcom.com (Heather Downs) writes:
::: k...@access.digex.net (Keith F. Lynch) writes:
:::: Mike Steiner <ste...@best.com> wrote:
MS:
::::: I find it ironic that we have to put up with the stuff that Zeleny is
::::: spouting on the 50th anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz from
::::: the Germans.
KFL:
:::: How *DARE* you compare the deliberate murder of millions of innocent
:::: people with the request that people with unusual lifestyles (or ordinary
:::: lifestyles) should pay their own expenses, rather than sending the bill
:::: to the taxpayers?
::::
:::: If you want to take female hormones, or smoke marijuana, or gamble, or
:::: sail a boat around the world, or caculate a billion digits of pi, or
:::: worship the god(dess)(es) of your choice, or attend law school, or travel
:::: in outer space, or buy a house in the suburbs with a white picket fence,
:::: that's fine with me. I don't care *what* you do.
::::
:::: But you do with with *your* money. Not mine. Comprende?
HD:
::: It sounds like your gripe is more with the fact that prisoners are
::: given free medication in general, than with anything related to this
::: particular case.
MZ:
:: You are lying. He said "if you want", not "if you need".
MS:
: Yes, he said "want," but both of you are lying by pretending that a need is
: a want. Everything that he wrote from ",or smoke" to "fence" is irrelevant
: to this discussion.
Your putative need has no ground in reality, and no recognition by the
public consensus. It is grounded in naught but delusionary willfulness.
Get used to receiving denial, for you are already living in it.
HD:
::: Unless you think that transsexuals deserve fewer
::: rights than other people, or you have special proof that you know
::: more about medicine than the AMA, the APA, and the particular doctors
::: who prescribe hormones in the first place, I suggest that you lobby
::: your elected officials to cut off *all* drugs to prison inmates, instead
::: of harping on this one trivial issue. A Usenet post, according to my
::: newsreader, costs "hundreds if not thousands of dollars" to send all
::: over the globe, and I'll bet a good chuck of that tab is picked up
::: by American taxpayers. Thus, this thread has already cost much more
::: than hormones for transsexual inmates would in a hundred years, and
::: the most economically sound thing to do would be to let it die.
MZ:
:: The Usenet is a public venue.
::
:: Estrogen pills are a private indulgence.
::
:: I trust that you are sharp enough to tell the difference.
MS:
: Your access to the internet is a private indulgence; I see that *you* aren't
: sharp enough to tell the difference.
I pay for my access. Propagation of messages is a public service.
HD:
::: UNLESS, of course, all that economic stuff was just a distraction, and
::: your real purpose was to let us all know that you think transsexuals
::: are really yucky. Which is it?
MZ:
:: Shall I make it easy for you? You are hereby declared the officially
:: designated Usenet Victim of the Month. Now go paint a "Kick Me" sign
:: and staple it to your spotted arse. That ought to qualify you for an
:: NEA grant that would cover any number of happy pills of your choice.
MS:
: And you are hereby declared the officially designated Usenet Fuckwit of the
: Month. Here's a scroll; stick in in your head to fill the void that is
: currently there.
For added intellecxtual content, you might have added that perennial
classic, "So's your mother." I think your suggestion is best applied
at home. After all, you are the designated expert in the unnatural
propagation of empty spaces.
Mike Steiner
(Michael Zeleny) wrote:
>In article <3gmfm4$s...@access4.digex.net>
>bru...@access.digex.net (Bruce Garrett) writes:
>
>: k...@access.digex.net (Keith F. Lynch) dares...
>
>::: I find it ironic that we have to put up with the stuff that Zeleny is
>::: spouting on the 50th anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz from
>::: the Germans.
>
>:: How *DARE* you compare the deliberate murder of millions of innocent
>:: people with the request that people with unusual lifestyles (or ordinary
>:: lifestyles) should pay their own expenses, rather than sending the bill
>:: to the taxpayers?
>
>: I think the irony here springs largely from Zeleny's consuming
>: hatred towards homosexuals, which resemble in just about every meaningful
>: way, save the target of choice, the antisemitism of the brownshirts. The
>: only thing Zeleny would mind about shoveling the lot of us into the ovens
>: is paying for a share of cost of the fuel.
>
>Why would that be a consideration when your "lot" is so combustible?
>Not that there is any excuse for wasting real sentiment on a group
>distinguished by choosing an expression of love as barren and bereft
>of issue as the crematoria of Auschwitz. Contempt is the strongest
>emotion you merit, and the only one you will ever elicit from me.
Go fuck yourself, you goddamned Nazi bastard. In case you forgot, your kind
lost World War II; you're an anachronistic pestilence on the face of this
earth. This world can do very well without vermin such as yourself.
If you think that you stand any chance at all of rsurrecting the horrors of
the Nazis, stop deluding yourself. You won't stand a chance because the
good and decent people of this planet will make sure that it never happens
again.
And now that I know the kind of slime that you really are, this shall be my
last communication with you.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| M. Steiner | ____ Don't assume I'm straight. /\ |
| ste...@best.com | \ / Don't assume I'm not. / \ |
| | \/ ~~~~ |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael Zeleny
: In Article <3gltkv$n...@saba.info.ucla.edu>,
: zel...@oak.math.ucla.edu (Michael Zeleny) wrote:
:: In article <steiner.1...@news.best.com>
:: ste...@best.com (Mike Steiner) writes:
::: In Article <3gftab$j...@saba.info.ucla.edu>,
::: zel...@oak.math.ucla.edu (Michael Zeleny) wrote:
:::: Please explain the basis for your assertion that a person's gender is
:::: inherent, and is not a matter of choice.
::: That assertation was in reply to your assertation that gender is
::: a matter of choice; therefore, the onus of explanation is upon you.
:: I said nothing of the sort. Indeed, I have argued that biological
:: gender is a necessary and ineluctable property of the individual
:: belonging to a dioecious species. I have no idea of how you construe
:: your idea of gender in a way that evidently allows it to deviate from
:: the genetically determined aspects of your anatomy.
: Because I know the difference between sex and gender. Gender is what is in
: your head; sex is what is between your legs and in your chromosomes. As
: Hillel said, "go and study."
If your trouble is with what is in your head, go get therapy for what
is in your head. Estrogens and castration are largely irrelevant to
your thought processes.
::: You're right; the burden of proof is upon the accusing party, and depsite
::: your attempts at obfuscation, it is you who is the accusing party.
:: On the contrary, this is one of the rare occasions when I find myself
:: in agreement with the status quo. The prison physicians are doing
:: their job. I see no evidence to support your claim that they are not
:: doing it properly.
: The status quo is that physicians prescribe hormones for transsexuals,
: despite your absurd claim to the contrary.
The prescription is invariably made at the patient's insistence, after
lengthy scrutiny of his motives. In a word, it is optional, just like
liposuction and rhinoplasty.
Mike Steiner
(Michael Zeleny) wrote:
>In article <relayerD...@netcom.com>
>rel...@netcom.com (Heather Downs) writes:
>
>>zel...@oak.math.ucla.edu (Michael Zeleny) writes:
>
>>>You are lying. He said "if you want", not "if you need".
>>>The Usenet is a public venue.
>>>Estrogen pills are a private indulgence.
>>>I trust that you are sharp enough to tell the difference.
>
>>You are undoubtedly either the most clueless, or the most disingenuous,
>>person I've encountered here. And that's quite a feat, considering
>>you're going up against Ted, Buddy, the 1001 Incarnations of Margo,
>>etc.
>
>What a witty rebuttal! Have you considered a lucrative career as
>a speechwriter for Newt Gingrich?
Why would she want to take a job that you are better suited for? Or are you
holding out to be Tom Metzger's or Lou Sheldon's lackey?
Caitlin Mackay Shaw
zel...@oak.math.ucla.edu (Michael Zeleny) writes:
>In article <steiner.1...@news.best.com>
>ste...@best.com (Mike Steiner) writes:
>> k...@access.digex.net (Keith F. Lynch) writes:
>>> If you want to take female hormones, [...]
>>> that's fine with me. I don't care *what* you do.
>>> But you do with with *your* money. Not mine. Comprende?
>> Yes, he said "want," but both of you are lying by pretending that
>> a need is a want.
>Your putative need has no ground in reality, and no recognition by the
>public consensus.
As a general rule, medical treatments are prescribed by doctors of
medicine on the basis of documented medical research. If you feel that
medical research up to date has been misfocused and has therefore
obtained incorrect results, say so. State what in particular you object
to in the body of information offered on the subject of medical
treatment of gender dysphoria.
If, on the other hand, you find it significant that the 'public
consensus' (the people of which region? what time period?) is that
hormone therapy is not what the medical profession says it is, please
explain why you regard this ignorance as more important to fiscal
decisions than sound medical knowledge.
Caitlin
--
___-----______________________________________________________________-----___
____---____________-- Caitlin Shaw <cms...@princeton.edu> --___________---____
_____-_____________"There is no /one true way/." --M. Lackey____________-_____
brou...@admin.usask.ca
In article <3gnh07$j...@saba.info.ucla.edu>, zel...@oak.math.ucla.edu (Michael Zeleny) writes:
|>In article <steiner.1...@news.best.com>
|>ste...@best.com (Mike Steiner) writes:
|>
|>: In Article <3gltkv$n...@saba.info.ucla.edu>,
|>: zel...@oak.math.ucla.edu (Michael Zeleny) wrote:
|>
|>:: In article <steiner.1...@news.best.com>
|>:: ste...@best.com (Mike Steiner) writes:
|>
|>::: In Article <3gftab$j...@saba.info.ucla.edu>,
|>::: zel...@oak.math.ucla.edu (Michael Zeleny) wrote:
|>
|>:::: Please explain the basis for your assertion that a person's gender is
|>:::: inherent, and is not a matter of choice.
|>
|>::: That assertation was in reply to your assertation that gender is
|>::: a matter of choice; therefore, the onus of explanation is upon you.
|>
|>:: I said nothing of the sort. Indeed, I have argued that biological
|>:: gender is a necessary and ineluctable property of the individual
|>:: belonging to a dioecious species. I have no idea of how you construe
|>:: your idea of gender in a way that evidently allows it to deviate from
|>:: the genetically determined aspects of your anatomy.
|>
|>: Because I know the difference between sex and gender. Gender is what is in
|>: your head; sex is what is between your legs and in your chromosomes. As
|>: Hillel said, "go and study."
|>
|>If your trouble is with what is in your head, go get therapy for what
|>is in your head. Estrogens and castration are largely irrelevant to
|>your thought processes.
This guy is obviously a moron who knows nothing about the reality of
gender dysphoria.
He won't let facts get in the way of his opinions so just ignore him.
Darrell
brou...@admin.usask.ca
In article <3goee0$i...@transfer.stratus.com>, Willia...@vos.stratus.com writes:
|>> ste...@best.com (Mike Steiner) wrote:
|>>>, cam...@primenet.com (Camilla Cracchiolo) wrote:
|>
|>>>Myself, I'm inclined to let transsexuals in prison have their hormones,
|>>>since we simply know far too little about why people have any sexual
|>>>orientation or what it means to really determine the necessity of the
|>>>drug.
|>
|>>One point of correction: Transsexuality is not a sexual orientation; it is
|>>a gender identity. Sexual orientation is who you want to go to bed with or
|>>who you love; gender identity is who you are.
|>
|> Whatever it may be, I don't believe that it's a general welfare issue
|> to ensure that transexuals recieve their hormone pills.
Whatever you believe has nothing to do with it. Learn the facts.
If you were taking hormone pills you might understand the seriousness
of this issue.
Darrell
Joan Tine
: In article <1995Jan31....@snugbug.cts.com>
: jo...@snugbug.cts.com (Joan Tine) writes:
: You have misunderstood my point, which is entirely my fault for having
: made it in an obscure and roundabout fashion. My facial disfigurement
: amounts to no more than the presence of characteristic ethnic traits,
: which suffice to elicit unprovoked attempts at manual rearrangement
: thereof from a significant class of natives of orthodox descent, an
: all too common experience among certain ex-Soviet ethnic minorities,
: which nonetheless has failed to leave me with a fine-tuned sense of
: entitlement to compensation for the alleged accidents of my birth.
I can only think of the child, not the adult. And you can guess how
much credence I give to that child thinking that way. Some grow up
by accepting their child, some by denying it...some still have their
stuffed bear in a place of honor in their bedroom, others do not, and
if pressed, would deny ever sleeping with one. Any mark which other
kids fix on is an overwhelming one. A great priority in the rest
of life is to try to heal, or at least contain the damage done
in childhood over such a thing. That is my wish for you.
: Now feel free to revisit your wrath on my person.
Sorry, there is none left. About all I can think to do is
hold you and cry with you till it doesn't hurt so much 'way
down in there. I know it's a deep well, because the derrick
is so tall. I am not entitled to have my surgery or medications
underwritten by my society any more than you are...we have, as
a culture, not opted for socialized medicine, and hopefully
never will...but we _are_ 'entitled' to shed the unjustly
encountered wounds and self-destructive programs our inferiors
seem to take such delight in instilling in us when we are tiny.
Helping each other to that end is more noble than gnawing at
others because of our pain. Our ancestors demonstrated that we
have the strength, as a species, to ignore a mouth full of rotten
teeth and still lead a rich life...but that pain still is there,
and it surely colored their thinking and actions, their relations
and policies. So for all pain. Seems the proper course is
obvious:).
Joan
"What shall we say to the dead?"
"I think we must, if we are people of good will, say that it
will not happen again."
--Fail Safe
: cordially, don't
: mikhail zel...@math.ucla.edu tread
: writing from the disneyland of formal philosophy on
: "Le cul des femmes est monotone comme l'esprit des hommes." me
Bruce Garrett
MZ> Why would that be a consideration when your "lot" is so combustible?
You've given the matter some practical thought, have you? Why is
this not surprising...? Any patents pending...? Buying stock in chemical
companies that make insecticide...?
MZ> Not that there is any excuse for wasting real sentiment on a group
MZ> distinguished by choosing an expression of love as barren and bereft
MZ> of issue as the crematoria of Auschwitz.
The crematoria of Auschwitz took the despised in and produced forth
ashes and surely you don't expect anyone who's ever read you to actually
believe that you think that's barren issue. What you think it is, is
industry. What is more, Auschwitz produced hair for the stuffing of
pillows and other raw materials to make useful household products from the
useless bodies of contemptible people and I know you see a definite merit
in that.
MZ> Contempt is the strongest emotion you merit, and the only one you will
MZ> ever elicit from me.
Sure. Which is why you hop right into discussions concerning things
like homosexuality and transsexuality like a drive by gangster crusing the
streets for people wearing the wrong colors. You can't help yourself
Michael...your pathetic hatreds lead you by the nose like a matted, ragged
and flea bitten circus bear and I suppose it's just as well you don't care
what a nickel buffoon you look like every time you open your yap about human
sexuality since even if you did care you still couldn't help yourself and
anyway Usenet needs ox butts like you to remind us that freshmen aren't
really as stupid as the tenured like to think.
It's been a while since we've talked guy...just how long has it been
now, that you've been working on those correspondence courses for the
priesthood? You should be ready for ordination soon...right...? I hear the
Worldwide Church of God is still looking for someone with Charisma and
nothing left to loose in the way of intellectual credibility to replace
Garner Ted Armstrong on the tube and if I were you I'd contact them right
away, because if anyone needs an audience that can sit still while a raving
lunatic babbles a synthesis of pseudo scientific claptrap, embarrassing
dogmas and peasant barnyard prejudice without belly laughing it's you. You
could recite favorite passages from the gloss of your Time/Life The Great
Philosophers series in Russian and all the yokels out there would rush to
place their hands on the picture tube to be healed, thinking that you're
speaking to them in tongues. Don't dream it, Michael, be it.
MZ> Were you commemorating your colleagues who succumbed during the Night
MZ> of the Long Knives?
I watched "We were marked with a big 'A'", produced by the United
States Holocaust Memorial Museum, of which I am a member. You might wish
to contact them about it as I'm sure you'd find it a wonderful memorial gift
to give to the parents of Gay children who've been beaten to death, along
with your warmest wishes that they took a long time to die...
MZ> Too bad about those snappy uniforms -- but not to worry, the very same
MZ> ideology lives on in your neighborhood leather bar.
Ideology isn't fashion Michael, although I'm sure that concept
escapes you completely since you seem to change pet philosophers as often as
a couch potato changes channels (whose sublime and timeless wisdom are you
devoutly babbling about this month, Willard Scott?)...and you can find
photographs of people strutting around in Nazi regalia for sexual
gratification in nearly every adult bookstore in the country...most of them
heterosexual. Actually I'm most likely to encounter this peculiar fixation
on Nazi accoutrements in my own life, not at bars since I'm not really all
that fond of them, but to my everlasting chagrin as a gun owner, at gun
shows...along with anti-homosexual trivia like the bumper sticker I saw the
other weekend while I was scanning the tables for another slide for one of
my .45's that said (stop me if you already have this one...) "Warning, I
brake for Queers - and shoot." I think I'm going to start a collection of
homophobe toys...don't take this to mean I desire to become one however.
Would you mind selling me your poster of the body of Nicholas West?
Doubtless seeing all of these people strutting around wearing Nazi
uniforms and buying Nazi collectibles distresses you greatly; all these
pathetic philistines playing with what little is left of the glorious legacy
of the third reich as if it was merely a bunch of toys left abandoned on the
playing field and not the last glimmer of a civilization that believed in
the master race, the super man and the necessity of exterminating
undesirables as the careful and conscientious gardener prunes his garden.
You read fondly from Hegel and Nietzche and you are uplifted, transported
for a moment into Valhalla, you recall a movement from Strauss...a passage
from from Ein Heldenleben...and glance out the window only to see a couple
of homosexual males with uniform fetishes wearing carefully researched and
meticulously crafted recreations of storm trouper regalia walk past, their
boots hitting the pavement with exacting synchronicity...holding hands and
discussing marriage. Such an outrage, that. Himmler would have had them
shot. But the glorious past is gone...gone...the species is probably
hopelessly contaminated by inferior genes...and poor Michael can see it
everywhere he looks...even in All Possible Worlds...and there is not an
Availible Cunt anywhere to be seen to make everything all better again which
makes Michael very sad...and why he's always acting like he's just swallowed
his iron cross...
--
-Bruce Garrett \ finger bru...@access.digex.net
Cockeysville, MD. / \ 667: The Neighbor of the Beast...
Michael Zeleny
jo...@snugbug.cts.com (Joan Tine) writes:
: Michael Zeleny (zel...@oak.math.ucla.edu) wrote:
:: jo...@snugbug.cts.com (Joan Tine) writes:
:: You have misunderstood my point, which is entirely my fault for having
:: made it in an obscure and roundabout fashion. My facial disfigurement
:: amounts to no more than the presence of characteristic ethnic traits,
:: which suffice to elicit unprovoked attempts at manual rearrangement
:: thereof from a significant class of natives of orthodox descent, an
:: all too common experience among certain ex-Soviet ethnic minorities,
:: which nonetheless has failed to leave me with a fine-tuned sense of
:: entitlement to compensation for the alleged accidents of my birth.
: I can only think of the child, not the adult. And you can guess how
: much credence I give to that child thinking that way. Some grow up
: by accepting their child, some by denying it...some still have their
: stuffed bear in a place of honor in their bedroom, others do not, and
: if pressed, would deny ever sleeping with one. Any mark which other
: kids fix on is an overwhelming one. A great priority in the rest
: of life is to try to heal, or at least contain the damage done
: in childhood over such a thing. That is my wish for you.
I appreciate the sentiment responsible for your wish for me, but fail
to grasp its factual grounds. Most men go through life without once
exercising an opportunity to throw a punch in anger, or otherwise to
react against pervasive injustice, by dint of being sheltered
therefrom by their character or station in life. As much as I pity
them for having missed a unique learning experience, I am not about to
militate for including the fundamentals of physical confrontation into
the public school curriculum. My experience is my own, requiring
therapy no more than it requires acclaim or odium. As regards the
permanent damage allegedly stemming from it, I incurred at least as
many physical injuries while trying to save stray cats from hanging by
the budding natural scientists in my neighborhood, as I did while
defending my face from their attempts at its decorative rearrangement.
Twenty-five years later, I find myself indifferent to cats, as long as
they are left alone to go about their business, as well as utterly
disinclined to construe my ethnic identity as the basis for personal
or political action. It is simply untrue that the traumatic struggles
of one's childhood are fundamental to the determination of one's
character as an adult. And it seems more dignified to address one's
neighbors with the initial presumption of responsible adulthood.
:: Now feel free to revisit your wrath on my person.
: Sorry, there is none left. About all I can think to do is
: hold you and cry with you till it doesn't hurt so much 'way
: down in there. I know it's a deep well, because the derrick
: is so tall. I am not entitled to have my surgery or medications
: underwritten by my society any more than you are...we have, as
: a culture, not opted for socialized medicine, and hopefully
: never will...but we _are_ 'entitled' to shed the unjustly
: encountered wounds and self-destructive programs our inferiors
: seem to take such delight in instilling in us when we are tiny.
: Helping each other to that end is more noble than gnawing at
: others because of our pain. Our ancestors demonstrated that we
: have the strength, as a species, to ignore a mouth full of rotten
: teeth and still lead a rich life...but that pain still is there,
: and it surely colored their thinking and actions, their relations
: and policies. So for all pain. Seems the proper course is
: obvious:).
Setting aside the questionable relevance of pain and suffering to our
past disagreement, I am left to wonder whether it ever had any real
substance. As long as your gender identity and sexual preference does
not encroach on the rights of others, I am perfectly happy to let you
cultivate and exercise them. My own philosophical views in the matter
of the morals of sexual conduct, which are part of the public record,
are not meant to arrogate the final authority to my person, nor to
rule out the legitimacy of other approaches. Given that you appear to
acknowledge full responsibility for your choices, I can only wish you
good luck in realizing them to your satisfaction.
: Joan
:
: "What shall we say to the dead?"
: "I think we must, if we are people of good will, say that it
: will not happen again."
: --Fail Safe
: --
: the Right Disreputable, Lady Wombat.
: Priscilla Asagiri Fashions in Fiberglass
cordially, don't
mikhail zel...@math.ucla.edu tread
from the disneyland of formal philosophy on
"Nous donnons la mort et savons la subir." me
Michael Zeleny
bru...@netcom.com (Bruce Garrett) writes:
: zel...@oak.math.ucla.edu (Michael Zeleny) considers it...
:: Why would that be a consideration when your "lot" is so combustible?
: You've given the matter some practical thought, have you?
A purely theoretical speculation, concerning the likely connection
betwixt your egregious conversational manners, and the etymological
provenance of that familiar vernacular epithet, "flaming faggot".
:: Not that there is any excuse for wasting real sentiment on a group
:: distinguished by choosing an expression of love as barren and bereft
:: of issue as the crematoria of Auschwitz.
: The crematoria of Auschwitz took the despised in and produced forth
: ashes and surely you don't expect anyone who's ever read you to actually
: believe that you think that's barren issue. What you think it is, is
: industry. What is more, Auschwitz produced hair for the stuffing of
: pillows and other raw materials to make useful household products from the
: useless bodies of contemptible people and I know you see a definite merit
: in that.
On the contrary, I cherish your social utility as a living didactic
emblem of sexual pathology. Society thrives on conflict, and the
occasional presence of an outspoken invert therein cannnot fail to
have a salubrious effect on the moral temperament of the common man.
At a time when your fey ranks are being constantly depleted by the
virulent effects of your unwholesome sexuality, one might start
thinking in earnest about setting up a national conservancy for the
preservation of unnatural lifestyles. Feel free to give me a call
when you need a volunteer armed guard to protect you from the next
logical development of the Operation Rescue, aiming to save millions
of innocent spermatozoa from imminent perdition in the inhospitable
crevices of your pustulent carcass.
:: Contempt is the strongest emotion you merit, and the only one you will
:: ever elicit from me.
: Sure. Which is why you hop right into discussions concerning things
: like homosexuality and transsexuality like a drive by gangster crusing the
: streets for people wearing the wrong colors.
I would never expect you to understand the moral duty of speaking the
truth, or the best approximation thereto one can discover in his lifetime.
:: Were you commemorating your colleagues who succumbed during the Night
:: of the Long Knives?
: I watched "We were marked with a big 'A'", produced by the United
: States Holocaust Memorial Museum, of which I am a member.
How predictable of your whining ilk to regard itself as the exclusive
target of the catastrophe, promulgating the homosexual equivalent of
the Polish Catholic appropriation of Auschwitz. By extending the same
reasoning, you could equally well arrogate to your "lot" the exclusive
responsibility for the multifarious social accomplishments of the Nazi
regime, on the evidence of Rohm and his valiant bardache brigades.
:: Too bad about those snappy uniforms -- but not to worry, the very same
:: ideology lives on in your neighborhood leather bar.
: Ideology isn't fashion Michael
Fashion is ideology par excellence, not in the least among those who
subscribe to the theory that victimized minority status grants them an
automatic entitlement to the high moral ground, along with automatic
immunity from moral scrutiny. Your tactic of demonizing your opponent
is as transparently ineffectual as it is suggestive of your suppressed
awareness of living in bad faith.
Caitlin Mackay Shaw
In article <3gsru3$o...@saba.info.ucla.edu>
zel...@oak.math.ucla.edu (Michael Zeleny) writes:
>Society thrives on conflict, and the occasional presence of an
>outspoken invert therein [...etc...]
^^^^^^
The term 'invert' went out of use about a century ago, Michael. If you
feel a desperate need for complex-sounding arguments of simple matters,
I suggest 'homosexuality' from among the terms with current definiton as
having a) a large number of syllables, b) clear etymology, and c) a
'clinical sound.'
Caitlin "sheesh, some people don't know when the SATs are over" Shaw
Mike Steiner
wrote:
How about their blood-pressure medication, their insulin, their
anti-biotics, etc.? It's no different.
Oh yes; there is one difference; transsexual has "sex" in the middle of the
word, so the funda-mentalmidgets get all in an uproar and show their true
colors of intollerance and bigotry. The white sheets and brown shirts live
on!
Michael Zeleny
: zel...@oak.math.ucla.edu (Michael Zeleny) writes:
:: ste...@best.com (Mike Steiner) writes:
::: k...@access.digex.net (Keith F. Lynch) writes:
:::: If you want to take female hormones, [...]
:::: that's fine with me. I don't care *what* you do.
:::: But you do with with *your* money. Not mine. Comprende?
::: Yes, he said "want," but both of you are lying by pretending that
::: a need is a want.
:: Your putative need has no ground in reality, and no recognition by the
:: public consensus.
: As a general rule, medical treatments are prescribed by doctors of
: medicine on the basis of documented medical research. If you feel that
: medical research up to date has been misfocused and has therefore
: obtained incorrect results, say so. State what in particular you object
: to in the body of information offered on the subject of medical
: treatment of gender dysphoria.
I do not recall ever having arrogated the right to second-guess
"medical research up to date." But surely you must be aware that
the treatment of gender dysphoria is invariably undertaken at the
patient's option. A medical need is something that can arise in
connection with having a malignant tumor; it is not something that
ever arises in connection with having a penis. Unlike the cancer
patient, the transsexual is fully capable of living with his
condition.
: If, on the other hand, you find it significant that the 'public
: consensus' (the people of which region? what time period?) is that
: hormone therapy is not what the medical profession says it is, please
: explain why you regard this ignorance as more important to fiscal
: decisions than sound medical knowledge.
I do not distinguish public consensus from professional consensus,
except to note that a more inclusive population stratum takes part
in the determination of the public policy. And it behooves the
professional to understand that his special knowledge confers unto
him no special advantage in the democratic process.
: Caitlin
: --
: ___-----______________________________________________________________-----___
: ____---____________-- Caitlin Shaw <cms...@princeton.edu> --___________---____
: _____-_____________"There is no /one true way/." --M. Lackey____________-_____
Perhaps the root of your problems with reading comprehension is in
taking your cues from trashy supermarket fiction.
Michael Zeleny
: followups set to alt.politics.homosexuality
Why should I limit my resonse to the refugees from a daisy chain gang?
: In article <3gsru3$o...@saba.info.ucla.edu>
: zel...@oak.math.ucla.edu (Michael Zeleny) writes:
:: Society thrives on conflict, and the occasional presence of an
:: outspoken invert therein [...etc...]
^^^^^^
: The term 'invert' went out of use about a century ago, Michael. If you
: feel a desperate need for complex-sounding arguments of simple matters,
: I suggest 'homosexuality' from among the terms with current definiton as
: having a) a large number of syllables, b) clear etymology, and c) a
: 'clinical sound.'
Thank you for your lexicographic concern, but I would fain use an epithet.
Incidentally, since your timetable is way off, I can only conjecture that
you have been misled by the obvious plumbing connotations arising in view
of Mr Garrett's intimate connections with the bottom of the sewer. My own
use of the term `invert' accords with Durrell's 1957 "At least the invert
escapes this fearful struggle to give oneself to another." Note that your
own concerns are clearly reflected in Reisner's 1974 "The inverts (a word
preferred by homosexuals to perverts) attempt to win converts."
: Caitlin "sheesh, some people don't know when the SATs are over" Shaw
Perhaps you ought to post your scores in an homage to John Collier.
Caitlin Mackay Shaw
zel...@oak.math.ucla.edu (Michael Zeleny) writes:
>In article <1995Feb2.1...@Princeton.EDU>
>cms...@flagstaff.princeton.edu (Caitlin Mackay Shaw) writes:
>: As a general rule, medical treatments are prescribed by doctors of
>: medicine on the basis of documented medical research. If you feel that
>: medical research up to date has been misfocused and has therefore
>: obtained incorrect results, say so. State what in particular you object
>: to in the body of information offered on the subject of medical
>: treatment of gender dysphoria.
>I do not recall ever having arrogated the right to second-guess
>"medical research up to date." But surely you must be aware that
>the treatment of gender dysphoria is invariably undertaken at the
>patient's option. A medical need is something that can arise in
>connection with having a malignant tumor; it is not something that
>ever arises in connection with having a penis. Unlike the cancer
>patient, the transsexual is fully capable of living with his
>condition.
Do you believe that mental disorders exist, in medical terms?
Do you believe that they can be treated medically?
Do you believe that correcting a hormone imbalance has a significant
positive effect on a patient?
If not, why not?
>I do not distinguish public consensus from professional consensus,
>except to note that a more inclusive population stratum takes part
>in the determination of the public policy. And it behooves the
>professional to understand that his special knowledge confers unto
>him no special advantage in the democratic process.
I do distinguish public and professional concensus, based on the fact
that a specialist have presumably studied an enormous body of
information on the subject in question.
It is the job of professionals to offer their specialized knowledge to
'the general public' on these sorts of issues; when there is a question
of the necessity of a certain medical treatment, the intelligent thing
to do is ask members of the medical profession who specialize in the
condition being treated what their years of study have discovered.
The generic 'man on the street' will in general not have even kept
current on the information available via normal media means on a subject
as obscure as hormone therapy for jailed transexuals. I would not even
know enough to join in this discussion a year ago; a series of fairly
random events piqued my interest in the subject and lead me to search
out minimal information. (Is there an alt.transgendered FAQ on the
subject of hormone therapy available? There isn't one current on my
newsreader in either alt.trans or soc.support.trans right now.)
>:_____-_____________"There is no /one true way/." --M. Lackey____________-_____
>Perhaps the root of your problems with reading comprehension is in
>taking your cues from trashy supermarket fiction.
I wasn't aware I had 'problems with reading comprehension.'
(And science fiction isn't trashy *or* supermarket as a general rule,
darn it! <gumble gripe groan> :) )
Bruce Garrett
>> You've given the matter some practical thought, have you?
MZ> A purely theoretical speculation...
Very sensible of you. Theory first...then comes practice...
MZ> ...concerning the likely connection betwixt your egregious
MZ> conversational manners...
My egregious conversational manners. Oh my...
"...shamefacedly slither back under the Vaseline-coated rock that
serves you for shelter."
"Do all you people store your brains behind your nether opening?"
"This seems to be a good time to announce a new contest, this time
around -- for the best Latin acronym of "I'M WHAT GENDERS"?"
"WHANGS REEM'D IT."
"Widen G., Hamster!"
"...You must be right, because your orifices tell you so."
"...the precious bodily fluids cumulatively injected in your capacious
bowels"
...and this one from just today:
"Why should I limit my resonse to the refugees from a daisy chain gang?"
Listening to you complain about Anyone's egregious conversational
manners is like listening to Richard Nixon complain about how crooked
politics has become. Your postings could make Usenet qualify for EPA
Superfund money.
MZ> ...and the etymological provenance of that familiar vernacular epithet,
MZ> "flaming faggot".
You mean the speculation that it arouse from the practice of
burning homosexuals at the stake in the middle ages? S'matter guy...you
know all the good tricks couldn't have been invented by Himmler.
MZ> At a time when your fey ranks are being constantly depleted by the
MZ> virulent effects of your unwholesome sexuality...
...more for the quotes file...
MZ> ...one might start thinking in earnest about setting up a national
MZ> conservancy for the preservation of unnatural lifestyles.
Starting with pathetic sexual obsessives like you who break out in
pimples whenever the subject of homosexuality arises yet can't leave it
alone to save themselves...
MZ> Feel free to give me a call when you need a volunteer armed guard to
MZ> protect you from the next logical development of the Operation
MZ> Rescue...
Armed guard??? Oh good heavens no...I'm a faggot...remember? The
very thought of guns gives me nightmares. The scent of Hoppe's makes me
tremble...the sight of a sizing die makes me dizzy...the smell of burnt
Unique makes me faint...looking for spent brass makes me cross-eyed. Oh,
no..No arms... please... please... I Simply Could Not Deal With It.
Make sure you spread that around.
MZ> I would never expect you to understand the moral duty of speaking the
MZ> truth, or the best approximation thereto one can discover in his
MZ> lifetime.
Haven't we already heard all your claptrap on this subject before?
Point of fact...we've heard it years and years before...
"When man attempts to rebel against the iron logic of nature he
comes to struggle with the principals to which he himself owes his
existence as a man. And this attack, must lead to his own doom." Mein
Kampf, chapter 11, "Nation and Race." Sums up everything you've been
bellyaching about for years now...and it's a whole lot more concise...but
succinct speaking never was exactly a synonym for Michael Zeleny. If you
could just rid yourself of this affection you have towards exam school
jargon and Essentialize, you could be a Great Orator too, Michael. Maybe
even seek political office. I still think the pulpit is your best bet
though...
>> I watched "We were marked with a big 'A'", produced by the United
>> States Holocaust Memorial Museum, of which I am a member.
MZ> How predictable of your whining ilk to regard itself as the exclusive
MZ> target of the catastrophe, promulgating the homosexual equivalent of
MZ> the Polish Catholic appropriation of Auschwitz.
Tell it to the directors of the Memorial Museum. They're the one's
who produced the film, and showed it during their three day symposium on
the fate of Homosexuals during the Third Reich. Make sure you pepper your
complaint with language like you're used to using when referring to
homosexuals (see above) and I'm sure the Museum directors will know just
what to do with it.
MZ> Your tactic of demonizing your opponent is as transparently ineffectual
MZ> as it is suggestive of your suppressed awareness of living in bad faith.
Pat Robertson could not demonize you better then you demonize
yourself. In the time I've been here I've seen you gleefully taunt people
grieving over lovers, friends, family, dead of AIDS. I've seen you wave
the names of homosexual dead around like they were trophies, like a grave
robber digging up human remains not for profit but to delight in
defilement, for the shear pleasure of knowing how much the sight of it
would wound the ones death left behind. I've seen you hurl gutter
profanity and abuse at homosexuals in any forum where you layed eyes on one
whether the topic was homosexuality or not, and that you were doing it not
from any sense of anger or moral outrage but from the shear pleasure a
degenerate normally feels when they've managed to create pain where there
was none before and add a little length to the chain of human grief, was
unmistakable. I could do scarcely more then a pikers job by comparison.
And my tactic is hardly ineffectual and it's amazingly effortless:
you're already leaking some of that vast reservoir of bile that poses in
your self esteem as a conscience ("Why should I limit my resonse to the
refugees from a daisy chain gang?") and this conversation has barely begun.
All I have to do is hit that <f>ollowup key and I know more often then not
I Will provoke a response from you and I Know as the exchange continues
you Will become progressively more and more ferine and that's all I need to
do because then the few who didn't know, Will know, that this ridiculous
veneer of cordiality you assume is wrapped around a thoroughly rotten core,
and that the only difference between reading Zeleny and witnessing a drive
by shooting is that grinning malevolence is only made more chilling for the
perpetrator being well dressed.
--
-Bruce Garrett \ finger bru...@access.digex.net
Cockeysville, MD. / \ Ex-BETAMAX Ministries: If Sony can change, so can you