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10 Unsettling Reasons You Should Care About What's Happening In Tibet !
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Peter Terpstra
Jun 3, 2013, 4:14:27 AM6/3/13
to
10 Unsettling Reasons You Should Care About What's Happening In Tibet !
Michael Kelley
Tibet, a plateau 13,000 feet above sea level that sits between China and India, remained largely isolated for centuries. It had
its own national flag, currency, culture and religion within a population of nomads, farmers, monks and traders dispersed over
territory about the size of Western Europe.
In October 1950 — following the foundation of the People's Republic of China in October 1949 — the People's Liberation Army
entered Tibet and overwhelmed its tiny army. The Chinese government began asserting its claim that Tibet was part of Chinese
territory and that its people were crying out for liberation from imperialist forces and the government in Lhasa.
In March 1959 Tibetans rebelled against the occupiers. The uprising was crushed and the Tibetan leader, the 14th Dalai Lama,
fled to India (followed by more than 80,000 Tibetans). Tens of thousands of Tibetans who remained were killed or imprisoned.
This week marks the fourth anniversary of violent protests that began in the capital of Lhasa and spread throughout Tibet and
to Chinese embassies around the world. The protests originally began when monks took to the streets to mark the 49th
anniversary of the failed uprising against Beijing.
The total Tibetan population is about 6 million. Of them, 2.09 million live in the Tibet Autonomous Region (TAR) — an area
created by the Chinese government in 1965 and about half the size of historical Tibet — while the rest live in the Tibetan areas
outside the TAR.
Read More on (with picture slide show):
http://www.businessinsider.com/tibet-2012-3
Michael Kelley
Tibet, a plateau 13,000 feet above sea level that sits between China and India, remained largely isolated for centuries. It had
its own national flag, currency, culture and religion within a population of nomads, farmers, monks and traders dispersed over
territory about the size of Western Europe.
In October 1950 — following the foundation of the People's Republic of China in October 1949 — the People's Liberation Army
entered Tibet and overwhelmed its tiny army. The Chinese government began asserting its claim that Tibet was part of Chinese
territory and that its people were crying out for liberation from imperialist forces and the government in Lhasa.
In March 1959 Tibetans rebelled against the occupiers. The uprising was crushed and the Tibetan leader, the 14th Dalai Lama,
fled to India (followed by more than 80,000 Tibetans). Tens of thousands of Tibetans who remained were killed or imprisoned.
This week marks the fourth anniversary of violent protests that began in the capital of Lhasa and spread throughout Tibet and
to Chinese embassies around the world. The protests originally began when monks took to the streets to mark the 49th
anniversary of the failed uprising against Beijing.
The total Tibetan population is about 6 million. Of them, 2.09 million live in the Tibet Autonomous Region (TAR) — an area
created by the Chinese government in 1965 and about half the size of historical Tibet — while the rest live in the Tibetan areas
outside the TAR.
Read More on (with picture slide show):
http://www.businessinsider.com/tibet-2012-3
lo yeeOn
Jun 3, 2013, 6:44:38 AM6/3/13
to
In article <2815411.nDygROTQN9@Dharma>,
founded in the year 1644. If the theocratic feudal society controlled
by the lamas and "nobles" had only a small army as Michael Kelley said
in the next paragraph, then the size of "Western Europe" is not a land
that could be defended. And indeed, Tibet has always been only a part
of China, nothing more!
If Tibet was ever a sovereign country, it would have been a member of
the United Nations in 1945 when the world body was founded - a full
four years before the communists seized power. But Tibet has never
been recognized by any country as a country.
Da Lama was a tool for the lamas and "nobles" who ruled feudal Tibet
and since he fled Tibet, Da Lama became a tool for the West to stir up
troubles in Tibet for the purpose of destabilizing China. Da Lama has
always existed for nothing except serving as the tools of his wealthy
paymasters.
>
>In October 1950 "following the foundation of the People's Republic of
>China in October 1949" the People's Liberation Army entered Tibet and
>overwhelmed its tiny army. The Chinese government began asserting its
>claim that Tibet was part of Chinese territory and that its people
>were crying out for liberation from imperialist forces and the
>government in Lhasa.
Read the Wikipedia, the Chinese governemnt did not begin to assert its
claim over Tibet only after the PRC was founded.
Again, if Tibet was ever a sovereign country, it would have been a
member of the United Nations in 1945 when the world body was founded -
a full four years before the communists seized power. But Tibet has
never been recognized by any country as a country. The reason that
Tibet was not recognized as a country in the UN in 1945 was because
the Nationalist government of China (ROC) insisted that Tibet could
not be admitted. Since China has always been a veto member in the
UNSC, of course Tibet could not simply claimed its way into the UN.
In other words, Tibet has been a part of China for hundreds of years -
in fact since 1644, the year China's Qing Dynasty was founded.
>
>In March 1959 Tibetans rebelled against the occupiers. The uprising
>was crushed and the Tibetan leader, the 14th Dalai Lama, fled to
>India (followed by more than 80,000 Tibetans). Tens of thousands of
>Tibetans who remained were killed or imprisoned.
In fact, according to Heinrich Harrer, Da Lama (Dalai Lama no.14) was
fleeing as early as 1951 when news of the PLA was coming.
Da Lama has always been a coward who is preoccupied with toys and
expensive Swiss clocks and watches and owned a hoard of gold. And in
fact, his mother who was "living in a palace in Lhasa and owning many
large properties across Tibet" had already fled to India when Da Lama
began to flee.
Da Lama stopped only when the Tibetans kept catching up with his
slowly moving south-bound entourage and begging him to stay "because
the PLA did not come in and slaughtered people as the Chinese army
did" several decades before in 1912 when Tibet declared independence
(like many other Chinese provinces had done at the time due to the
failing of the Qing Dynasty).
So Da Lama stayed. And in fact, he was invited to Beijing and was
wined and dined by Mao who tried to persuade him to agree to the
communist's universal land reform for China. But it is false to claim
that 1959 was the first time Da Lama fled Tibet. He was a coward and
he fled as early as 1951 when he heard the PLA was coming.
But despite Da Lama's interlocution with Mao and company in Beijing,
he was secretly working with the CIA, mostly through his relatives and
aides, and staged a brief rebellion in 1959 which was defeated in two
short weeks.
The death toll was from the rebellion - which was put down in two
short weeks - not from staying behind. CIA agents who were a part of
the 1959 rebellion have reported that the PLA was very disciplined and
did not kill many of those they had captured earlier.
And of course, the 2008 violent protests in Lhasa and eslsewhere was
funded by US money as China was the focus of the world's attention for
hosting the 2008 Summer Olympics.
And of course, the recent self-immolation incidents were desparate
attempts from the outside.
For as long as billions of USD is funded by the US Congress to keep
Tibet a political issue for China, Tibet cannot have peace and all
that is said negatively about China in the name of religious freedom
and human rights in Tibet is just rumor and more rumor of little
credibility. It is a sad story for the Tibetan people because the
West is just using them, instead of really doing something to improve
their well being.
lo yeeOn
Let the lama politics be eternally buried:
Tibetans don't want repatriation of Dalai Lama: Chinese Vice Minister
Cui
SUBODH GAUTAM
http://www.myrepublica.com/portal/index.php?action=news_details&news_id=54605
BEIJING, May 12: Chinese Vice Minister in the State Council
Information Office Cui Yuying has said that the Tibetan people won't
accept the repatriation of Dalai Lama, who she said is bent on
disintegrating the country.
Cui, who was born in Tibet and later also became chief of Tibet
Autonomous Region (TAR), said people living in TAR do not accept the
political ideology held by Dalai Lama. Foreign media might have been
spreading rumors that Tibetan people want repatriation of Dalai
Lama. But this is not the situation," she said. "Our investigation
has shown that Tibetans do not want to see Dalai Lama coming back."
Cui said that 14th Dalai Lama had not done anything to bring about
development in Tibet. "Dalai Lama only tried to disintegrate the
country. Tibetans do not agree with this kind of thought," she told
visiting journalists from Nepal and India on Thursday evening.
Stating that it was China, which gave him the title of Dalai Lama,
Vice Minister Cui said, "The recognition was not given only for the
14th Dalai Lama, but also for all his predecessors. But Tibetan people
do not agree with the political ideology of the 14th Lama."
Asked if the Chinese government had made any initiatives to repatriate
some 200,000 Tibetan refugees living in India, Cui said, "There is no
problem for Tibetans who would enter Tibet individually. But it is
difficult for those who enter Tibet as a representative of Dalai
Lama," she further said. Dalai Lama, who has been advocating for Free
Tibet, is living an exiled life in Dharmashala, India since 1959.
Cui said there won't be any change in Chinese policy toward the
Tibetans living abroad. "There are many rights and privileges secured
for Tibetans returning to Tibet on individual basis. They will return
to Tibet if they learn about this. Doors are always open for them to
Tibet," she said.
Cui said Dalai Lama might have told that Tibet was like heaven and the
people had everything they needed during his rule. "But that was not
the case. There was abject poverty in Tibet during those days,"
While claiming that US intelligence agency CIA had been distributing
money to Dalai Lama and his followers, Cui said, "Dalai Lama has not
spent that money wisely. This is the reason why his followers are
living a miserable life," she added.
On the occasion, she also mentioned that Chinese government had placed
Tibet in its priority list and it was bringing about development in
different sectors in Tibet. "Tibet was completely different 50 or 60
years ago. The life styles of Tibetan people have changed only
recently," she told.
While there was only one kilometer road from Potala Place to Winter
Palace, only two percent of the population was literate in Tibet when
Dalai Lama had left Tibet. There were no programs for the conservation
of monasteries. The average life expectancy has now reached 70 years
against 36 years back in the 1960s and 99 percent of the Tibetan
people have access to free education. Tibet now has seven airports and
widely connected road network.
Published on 2013-05-13 06:40:23
Peter Terpstra <peter.t...@gmail.com> wrote:
>10 Unsettling Reasons You Should Care About What's Happening In Tibet !
>
>Michael Kelley
>
>Tibet, a plateau 13,000 feet above sea level that sits between China and
>India, remained largely isolated for centuries. It had
>its own national flag, currency, culture and religion within a
>population of nomads, farmers, monks and traders dispersed over
>territory about the size of Western Europe.
Tibet has been in the Chinese map since the Qing Dynasty, which was
>10 Unsettling Reasons You Should Care About What's Happening In Tibet !
>
>Michael Kelley
>
>Tibet, a plateau 13,000 feet above sea level that sits between China and
>India, remained largely isolated for centuries. It had
>its own national flag, currency, culture and religion within a
>population of nomads, farmers, monks and traders dispersed over
>territory about the size of Western Europe.
founded in the year 1644. If the theocratic feudal society controlled
by the lamas and "nobles" had only a small army as Michael Kelley said
in the next paragraph, then the size of "Western Europe" is not a land
that could be defended. And indeed, Tibet has always been only a part
of China, nothing more!
If Tibet was ever a sovereign country, it would have been a member of
the United Nations in 1945 when the world body was founded - a full
four years before the communists seized power. But Tibet has never
been recognized by any country as a country.
Da Lama was a tool for the lamas and "nobles" who ruled feudal Tibet
and since he fled Tibet, Da Lama became a tool for the West to stir up
troubles in Tibet for the purpose of destabilizing China. Da Lama has
always existed for nothing except serving as the tools of his wealthy
paymasters.
>
>In October 1950 "following the foundation of the People's Republic of
>China in October 1949" the People's Liberation Army entered Tibet and
>overwhelmed its tiny army. The Chinese government began asserting its
>claim that Tibet was part of Chinese territory and that its people
>were crying out for liberation from imperialist forces and the
>government in Lhasa.
claim over Tibet only after the PRC was founded.
Again, if Tibet was ever a sovereign country, it would have been a
member of the United Nations in 1945 when the world body was founded -
a full four years before the communists seized power. But Tibet has
never been recognized by any country as a country. The reason that
Tibet was not recognized as a country in the UN in 1945 was because
the Nationalist government of China (ROC) insisted that Tibet could
not be admitted. Since China has always been a veto member in the
UNSC, of course Tibet could not simply claimed its way into the UN.
In other words, Tibet has been a part of China for hundreds of years -
in fact since 1644, the year China's Qing Dynasty was founded.
>
>In March 1959 Tibetans rebelled against the occupiers. The uprising
>was crushed and the Tibetan leader, the 14th Dalai Lama, fled to
>India (followed by more than 80,000 Tibetans). Tens of thousands of
>Tibetans who remained were killed or imprisoned.
fleeing as early as 1951 when news of the PLA was coming.
Da Lama has always been a coward who is preoccupied with toys and
expensive Swiss clocks and watches and owned a hoard of gold. And in
fact, his mother who was "living in a palace in Lhasa and owning many
large properties across Tibet" had already fled to India when Da Lama
began to flee.
Da Lama stopped only when the Tibetans kept catching up with his
slowly moving south-bound entourage and begging him to stay "because
the PLA did not come in and slaughtered people as the Chinese army
did" several decades before in 1912 when Tibet declared independence
(like many other Chinese provinces had done at the time due to the
failing of the Qing Dynasty).
So Da Lama stayed. And in fact, he was invited to Beijing and was
wined and dined by Mao who tried to persuade him to agree to the
communist's universal land reform for China. But it is false to claim
that 1959 was the first time Da Lama fled Tibet. He was a coward and
he fled as early as 1951 when he heard the PLA was coming.
But despite Da Lama's interlocution with Mao and company in Beijing,
he was secretly working with the CIA, mostly through his relatives and
aides, and staged a brief rebellion in 1959 which was defeated in two
short weeks.
The death toll was from the rebellion - which was put down in two
short weeks - not from staying behind. CIA agents who were a part of
the 1959 rebellion have reported that the PLA was very disciplined and
did not kill many of those they had captured earlier.
And of course, the 2008 violent protests in Lhasa and eslsewhere was
funded by US money as China was the focus of the world's attention for
hosting the 2008 Summer Olympics.
And of course, the recent self-immolation incidents were desparate
attempts from the outside.
For as long as billions of USD is funded by the US Congress to keep
Tibet a political issue for China, Tibet cannot have peace and all
that is said negatively about China in the name of religious freedom
and human rights in Tibet is just rumor and more rumor of little
credibility. It is a sad story for the Tibetan people because the
West is just using them, instead of really doing something to improve
their well being.
lo yeeOn
Let the lama politics be eternally buried:
Tibetans don't want repatriation of Dalai Lama: Chinese Vice Minister
Cui
SUBODH GAUTAM
http://www.myrepublica.com/portal/index.php?action=news_details&news_id=54605
BEIJING, May 12: Chinese Vice Minister in the State Council
Information Office Cui Yuying has said that the Tibetan people won't
accept the repatriation of Dalai Lama, who she said is bent on
disintegrating the country.
Cui, who was born in Tibet and later also became chief of Tibet
Autonomous Region (TAR), said people living in TAR do not accept the
political ideology held by Dalai Lama. Foreign media might have been
spreading rumors that Tibetan people want repatriation of Dalai
Lama. But this is not the situation," she said. "Our investigation
has shown that Tibetans do not want to see Dalai Lama coming back."
Cui said that 14th Dalai Lama had not done anything to bring about
development in Tibet. "Dalai Lama only tried to disintegrate the
country. Tibetans do not agree with this kind of thought," she told
visiting journalists from Nepal and India on Thursday evening.
Stating that it was China, which gave him the title of Dalai Lama,
Vice Minister Cui said, "The recognition was not given only for the
14th Dalai Lama, but also for all his predecessors. But Tibetan people
do not agree with the political ideology of the 14th Lama."
Asked if the Chinese government had made any initiatives to repatriate
some 200,000 Tibetan refugees living in India, Cui said, "There is no
problem for Tibetans who would enter Tibet individually. But it is
difficult for those who enter Tibet as a representative of Dalai
Lama," she further said. Dalai Lama, who has been advocating for Free
Tibet, is living an exiled life in Dharmashala, India since 1959.
Cui said there won't be any change in Chinese policy toward the
Tibetans living abroad. "There are many rights and privileges secured
for Tibetans returning to Tibet on individual basis. They will return
to Tibet if they learn about this. Doors are always open for them to
Tibet," she said.
Cui said Dalai Lama might have told that Tibet was like heaven and the
people had everything they needed during his rule. "But that was not
the case. There was abject poverty in Tibet during those days,"
While claiming that US intelligence agency CIA had been distributing
money to Dalai Lama and his followers, Cui said, "Dalai Lama has not
spent that money wisely. This is the reason why his followers are
living a miserable life," she added.
On the occasion, she also mentioned that Chinese government had placed
Tibet in its priority list and it was bringing about development in
different sectors in Tibet. "Tibet was completely different 50 or 60
years ago. The life styles of Tibetan people have changed only
recently," she told.
While there was only one kilometer road from Potala Place to Winter
Palace, only two percent of the population was literate in Tibet when
Dalai Lama had left Tibet. There were no programs for the conservation
of monasteries. The average life expectancy has now reached 70 years
against 36 years back in the 1960s and 99 percent of the Tibetan
people have access to free education. Tibet now has seven airports and
widely connected road network.
Published on 2013-05-13 06:40:23
The Progressive Voice
Jun 3, 2013, 3:09:44 PM6/3/13
to
> Peter Terpstra <peter.terpst...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >10 Unsettling Reasons You Should Care About What's Happening In Tibet !
>
> >Michael Kelley
>
> >Tibet, a plateau 13,000 feet above sea level that sits between China and
> >India, remained largely isolated for centuries. It had
> >its own national flag, currency, culture and religion within a
> >population of nomads, farmers, monks and traders dispersed over
> >territory about the size of Western Europe.
>
> Tibet has been in the Chinese map since the Qing Dynasty,
Yah and South Korea was listed on chinese maps during that territory
>
> >10 Unsettling Reasons You Should Care About What's Happening In Tibet !
>
> >Michael Kelley
>
> >Tibet, a plateau 13,000 feet above sea level that sits between China and
> >India, remained largely isolated for centuries. It had
> >its own national flag, currency, culture and religion within a
> >population of nomads, farmers, monks and traders dispersed over
> >territory about the size of Western Europe.
>
> Tibet has been in the Chinese map since the Qing Dynasty,
as sovereign territory. It had to do with the Qing imperial philosophy
that it was center of the universe. No one is claiming South Korea
today as part of china. Also the status of Tibet under the Qing was
like the relationship with the Vatican in Rome shared with the Italian
state. The Qing Dynasty, like Italy and the vatican, were only tasked
with the border defense of Tibet. Regardless of this fact when the
Qing Dynasty fell in 1911 Tibet declared independence.
thomaswheat1975
.>which was
>
> - Show quoted text -
The Progressive Voice
Jun 3, 2013, 3:12:32 PM6/3/13
to
On Jun 3, 3:44 am, acous...@panix.com (lo yeeOn) wrote:
> In article <2815411.nDygROTQN9@Dharma>,
> Peter Terpstra <peter.terpst...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >10 Unsettling Reasons You Should Care About What's Happening In Tibet !
>
> >Michael Kelley
>
> >Tibet, a plateau 13,000 feet above sea level that sits between China and
> >India, remained largely isolated for centuries. It had
> >its own national flag, currency, culture and religion within a
> >population of nomads, farmers, monks and traders dispersed over
> >territory about the size of Western Europe.
>
> Tibet has been in the Chinese map since the Qing Dynasty, which was
> founded in the year 1644.
Yah and South Korea was listed on chinese maps during that time
>
> >10 Unsettling Reasons You Should Care About What's Happening In Tibet !
>
> >Michael Kelley
>
> >Tibet, a plateau 13,000 feet above sea level that sits between China and
> >India, remained largely isolated for centuries. It had
> >its own national flag, currency, culture and religion within a
> >population of nomads, farmers, monks and traders dispersed over
> >territory about the size of Western Europe.
>
> Tibet has been in the Chinese map since the Qing Dynasty, which was
> founded in the year 1644.
as sovereign territory. It had to do with the Qing imperial
philosophy
that diplomatically, it was center of the universe. No one is claiming
philosophy
South Korea
today as part of china. Also the status of Tibet under the Qing was
like the relationship with the Vatican in Rome shared with the
Italian
state. The Qing Dynasty, like Italy and the vatican, were only
tasked
with the border defense of Tibet. Regardless of this fact when the
Qing Dynasty fell in 1911 Tibet declared independence.
thomaswheat1975
today as part of china. Also the status of Tibet under the Qing was
like the relationship with the Vatican in Rome shared with the
Italian
state. The Qing Dynasty, like Italy and the vatican, were only
tasked
with the border defense of Tibet. Regardless of this fact when the
Qing Dynasty fell in 1911 Tibet declared independence.
thomaswheat1975
Wusong
Jun 3, 2013, 3:24:40 PM6/3/13
to
On Jun 3, 12:12 pm, The Progressive Voice <thomaswheat1...@gmail.com>
wrote:
Your whole life has been NOTHING but wild guesses, wrong assumptions,
and infantile insults at people who don't share your ignorant views.
That is why you need consolation from an alien "mystic" who promises a
better life than the miserable one you are living.
Proof that you, Tom Jigme Wheat, aka "The Progressive Voice", are a
LIAR - nothing you say is of any value:
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.china/msg/b4c22582a068309e?hl=en
On the 17th of February, 2011, you accused me of advocating the
overthrow of American democracy, and "just a loud mouth with a one
inch rice dick":
http://groups.google.com/group/talk.politics.tibet/msg/3535c4db40a011...
I have since then asked you to prove it and you couldn't. All you
could do was beat around the bush and assume:
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.china/msg/555a9caec9d9e24b...
making further accusations: "that makes you a foreign agent of the CCP
in my book. If your here on a visa it will be soon revoked":
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.china/msg/f7d716c7958c0743...
, knowing full-well That I am an American and that I support the
American democracy in the USA:
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.china/msg/8e211f9563fe6443...
.
On the 5th of March, 2011, you finally admitted:
"I cant prove that you want to see america overthrown"
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.china/msg/eca9ae060e064bc3...
You are so dumb that you didn't even know the United States has
different time zones:
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.china/msg/9353ea9cd1e264ba...
When confronted again, all you could say was "go suck up to your
racist friend house nigger"
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.china/msg/4da8eea9e620ae9e...
You yourself have thus proven that you are a LIAR!
Quod erat demonstrandum.
wrote:
> Yah and South Korea was listed on chinese maps during that time
> as sovereign territory.
(remainder of troll post trash snipped)
> as sovereign territory.
Your whole life has been NOTHING but wild guesses, wrong assumptions,
and infantile insults at people who don't share your ignorant views.
That is why you need consolation from an alien "mystic" who promises a
better life than the miserable one you are living.
Proof that you, Tom Jigme Wheat, aka "The Progressive Voice", are a
LIAR - nothing you say is of any value:
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.china/msg/b4c22582a068309e?hl=en
On the 17th of February, 2011, you accused me of advocating the
overthrow of American democracy, and "just a loud mouth with a one
inch rice dick":
http://groups.google.com/group/talk.politics.tibet/msg/3535c4db40a011...
I have since then asked you to prove it and you couldn't. All you
could do was beat around the bush and assume:
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.china/msg/555a9caec9d9e24b...
making further accusations: "that makes you a foreign agent of the CCP
in my book. If your here on a visa it will be soon revoked":
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.china/msg/f7d716c7958c0743...
, knowing full-well That I am an American and that I support the
American democracy in the USA:
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.china/msg/8e211f9563fe6443...
.
On the 5th of March, 2011, you finally admitted:
"I cant prove that you want to see america overthrown"
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.china/msg/eca9ae060e064bc3...
You are so dumb that you didn't even know the United States has
different time zones:
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.china/msg/9353ea9cd1e264ba...
When confronted again, all you could say was "go suck up to your
racist friend house nigger"
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.china/msg/4da8eea9e620ae9e...
You yourself have thus proven that you are a LIAR!
Quod erat demonstrandum.
lo yeeOn
Jun 3, 2013, 10:14:26 PM6/3/13
to
In article <3823caa3-3483-4eec...@s2g2000pbz.googlegroups.com>,
intellectual honesty left that will help you retain a modicum of
credibility around these newsgroups as a poster?
You don't attack a multi-paragraph post by taking its first sentence
out of context. In this case, there was nothing wrong by what I said.
Tibet was a part of China since 1644! That means that it was and has
not changed ever since. I made clear below that Tibet would have an
opportunity to have been a UN member, at least in 1945 (years before
the "evil" CCP came into Tibet and drove Da Lama south to India), if
it had been deemed a worthy nation. But Tibet never made it, even
though both Koreas (North Korea and South Korea) have been members of
the UN for decades.
So now I can see that you are posting just to create distraction from
the messages that speak unfavorable to the lama-agenda of Tibet - no
matter how valid the messages themselves are. Way to go, you just
show people how supporters of the lama-agenda have no integrity.
lo yeeOn
Let the lama politics be eternally buried:
Tibetans don't want repatriation of Dalai Lama: Chinese Vice Minister
Cui
SUBODH GAUTAM
http://www.myrepublica.com/portal/index.php?action=news_details&news_id=54605
The Progressive Voice <thomasw...@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Jun 3, 3:44 am, acous...@panix.com (lo yeeOn) wrote:
>> In article <2815411.nDygROTQN9@Dharma>,
>> Peter Terpstra <peter.terpst...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >10 Unsettling Reasons You Should Care About What's Happening In Tibet !
>>
>> >Michael Kelley
>>
>> >Tibet, a plateau 13,000 feet above sea level that sits between China and
>> >India, remained largely isolated for centuries. It had
>> >its own national flag, currency, culture and religion within a
>> >population of nomads, farmers, monks and traders dispersed over
>> >territory about the size of Western Europe.
>>
>> Tibet has been in the Chinese map since the Qing Dynasty,
>
>Yah and South Korea was listed on chinese maps during that territory
>as sovereign territory. It had to do with the Qing imperial philosophy
>that it was center of the universe. No one is claiming South Korea
>today as part of china. Also the status of Tibet under the Qing was
>like the relationship with the Vatican in Rome shared with the Italian
>state. The Qing Dynasty, like Italy and the vatican, were only tasked
>with the border defense of Tibet. Regardless of this fact when the
>Qing Dynasty fell in 1911 Tibet declared independence.
>thomaswheat1975
Tom Jigme, how long are you going to stoop? Do you have any
>On Jun 3, 3:44 am, acous...@panix.com (lo yeeOn) wrote:
>> In article <2815411.nDygROTQN9@Dharma>,
>> Peter Terpstra <peter.terpst...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >10 Unsettling Reasons You Should Care About What's Happening In Tibet !
>>
>> >Michael Kelley
>>
>> >Tibet, a plateau 13,000 feet above sea level that sits between China and
>> >India, remained largely isolated for centuries. It had
>> >its own national flag, currency, culture and religion within a
>> >population of nomads, farmers, monks and traders dispersed over
>> >territory about the size of Western Europe.
>>
>> Tibet has been in the Chinese map since the Qing Dynasty,
>
>Yah and South Korea was listed on chinese maps during that territory
>as sovereign territory. It had to do with the Qing imperial philosophy
>that it was center of the universe. No one is claiming South Korea
>today as part of china. Also the status of Tibet under the Qing was
>like the relationship with the Vatican in Rome shared with the Italian
>state. The Qing Dynasty, like Italy and the vatican, were only tasked
>with the border defense of Tibet. Regardless of this fact when the
>Qing Dynasty fell in 1911 Tibet declared independence.
>thomaswheat1975
intellectual honesty left that will help you retain a modicum of
credibility around these newsgroups as a poster?
You don't attack a multi-paragraph post by taking its first sentence
out of context. In this case, there was nothing wrong by what I said.
Tibet was a part of China since 1644! That means that it was and has
not changed ever since. I made clear below that Tibet would have an
opportunity to have been a UN member, at least in 1945 (years before
the "evil" CCP came into Tibet and drove Da Lama south to India), if
it had been deemed a worthy nation. But Tibet never made it, even
though both Koreas (North Korea and South Korea) have been members of
the UN for decades.
So now I can see that you are posting just to create distraction from
the messages that speak unfavorable to the lama-agenda of Tibet - no
matter how valid the messages themselves are. Way to go, you just
show people how supporters of the lama-agenda have no integrity.
lo yeeOn
Let the lama politics be eternally buried:
Tibetans don't want repatriation of Dalai Lama: Chinese Vice Minister
Cui
SUBODH GAUTAM
lo yeeOn
Jun 3, 2013, 10:53:16 PM6/3/13
to
In article <25fe8032-1954-476e...@pd6g2000pbc.googlegroups.com>,
I have pointed out many times that the declaration of independence in
1911 at the fall of the Qing Dynasty means little. In 1911-12, just
about every other province in China had an uprising or declared
independence, including China's most prosporous Guangdong province
todcay. What happened to those provinces, of which Tibet was one,
afterwards? Within a year, all rebellions were vanquished, including
Tibet! In fact, the Dalai Lama no.13 fled to Sikkim, a province of
India at the time. And in fact, Heinrich Harrer, lonely Da Lama's
Austrian personal tutor for several years prior to 1951, mentioned how
the Tibetans reacted at first when they heard that the CCP was coming!
They were very afraid because they remembered or were told that the
last time the Chinese came (that was in response to Tibet's hasty
declaration of independence), the general was merciless and killed
many Tibetans.
(Actually, the central government of the newly born ROC was unhappy
with the general's treatment of the Tibetans who were considered,
rightly, a Chinese ethnic minority and executed the general. In
addition, it sent a representative to apologize to the Dalai Lama
no.13 who haughtily gave an "I don't give a damn what you think"
reply. It is hilarious, isn't it, as we look back at the Tibetan
situation. These days, all the lamas-agenda supporters just resort to
lie instead of steeling themselves to face the hard truth of the
lamas' sorry state in the modern times.)
But of course, as Da Lama was fleeing south but remained in that part
of Tibet closest to India, the Tibetan people kept running up to him
and sang the "please don't go, your holiness" song and were able to
convince him that the PLA was not killing people like the last time.
So, Da Lama sticked around for another what? Eight more years to be
exact: 1951-1959 before he finally ran with the CIA and his hoard of
gold!
The lamas never provided a good life for the masses. They exploit
Buddhism and made it into a state religion and misled the people to
slave for them and the "nobles". The lamas belong to the past and so
let them be. See what Cui Yuying, a prominent contemporary Tibetan
Chinese woman, has to say about the obsolescence of the Tibetan Lama
politics.
Please keep in mind that had the lamas continued to hold sway in
Tibet, instead of the egalitarian influence of the CCP, neither Cui
Yuying nor Tsering Woeser would have a voice, speaking about the
conditions in Tibet in their respective ways. Women would still be in
a state in which they "know nothing about equal rights and are quite
happy as they are" (during the years Herr Heinrich Harrer was in
Lhasa: 1944-1951).
So, let Tibetan feudalism be deeply buried with the past.
lo yeeOn
Let the lama politics be eternally buried:
Tibetans don't want repatriation of Dalai Lama: Chinese Vice Minister
Cui
SUBODH GAUTAM
http://www.myrepublica.com/portal/index.php?action=news_details&news_id=54605
The Progressive Voice <thomasw...@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Jun 3, 3:44 am, acous...@panix.com (lo yeeOn) wrote:
>> In article <2815411.nDygROTQN9@Dharma>,
>> Peter Terpstra <peter.terpst...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >10 Unsettling Reasons You Should Care About What's Happening In Tibet !
>>
>> >Michael Kelley
>>
>> >Tibet, a plateau 13,000 feet above sea level that sits between China and
>> >India, remained largely isolated for centuries. It had
>> >its own national flag, currency, culture and religion within a
>> >population of nomads, farmers, monks and traders dispersed over
>> >territory about the size of Western Europe.
>>
>> Tibet has been in the Chinese map since the Qing Dynasty, which was
>> founded in the year 1644.
>>
>Yah and South Korea was listed on chinese maps during that time as
>sovereign territory. It had to do with the Qing imperial philosophy
>that diplomatically, it was center of the universe. No one is
>claiming South Korea today as part of china. Also the status of Tibet
>under the Qing was like the relationship with the Vatican in Rome
>shared with the Italian state. The Qing Dynasty, like Italy and the
>vatican, were only tasked with the border defense of
>Tibet. Regardless of this fact when the Qing Dynasty fell in 1911
>Tibet declared independence.
>thomaswheat1975
Sorry to see you stooped so low to make such an unsupported argument.
>> In article <2815411.nDygROTQN9@Dharma>,
>> Peter Terpstra <peter.terpst...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >10 Unsettling Reasons You Should Care About What's Happening In Tibet !
>>
>> >Michael Kelley
>>
>> >Tibet, a plateau 13,000 feet above sea level that sits between China and
>> >India, remained largely isolated for centuries. It had
>> >its own national flag, currency, culture and religion within a
>> >population of nomads, farmers, monks and traders dispersed over
>> >territory about the size of Western Europe.
>>
>> Tibet has been in the Chinese map since the Qing Dynasty, which was
>> founded in the year 1644.
>>
>Yah and South Korea was listed on chinese maps during that time as
>sovereign territory. It had to do with the Qing imperial philosophy
>that diplomatically, it was center of the universe. No one is
>claiming South Korea today as part of china. Also the status of Tibet
>under the Qing was like the relationship with the Vatican in Rome
>shared with the Italian state. The Qing Dynasty, like Italy and the
>vatican, were only tasked with the border defense of
>Tibet. Regardless of this fact when the Qing Dynasty fell in 1911
>Tibet declared independence.
>thomaswheat1975
I have pointed out many times that the declaration of independence in
1911 at the fall of the Qing Dynasty means little. In 1911-12, just
about every other province in China had an uprising or declared
independence, including China's most prosporous Guangdong province
todcay. What happened to those provinces, of which Tibet was one,
afterwards? Within a year, all rebellions were vanquished, including
Tibet! In fact, the Dalai Lama no.13 fled to Sikkim, a province of
India at the time. And in fact, Heinrich Harrer, lonely Da Lama's
Austrian personal tutor for several years prior to 1951, mentioned how
the Tibetans reacted at first when they heard that the CCP was coming!
They were very afraid because they remembered or were told that the
last time the Chinese came (that was in response to Tibet's hasty
declaration of independence), the general was merciless and killed
many Tibetans.
(Actually, the central government of the newly born ROC was unhappy
with the general's treatment of the Tibetans who were considered,
rightly, a Chinese ethnic minority and executed the general. In
addition, it sent a representative to apologize to the Dalai Lama
no.13 who haughtily gave an "I don't give a damn what you think"
reply. It is hilarious, isn't it, as we look back at the Tibetan
situation. These days, all the lamas-agenda supporters just resort to
lie instead of steeling themselves to face the hard truth of the
lamas' sorry state in the modern times.)
But of course, as Da Lama was fleeing south but remained in that part
of Tibet closest to India, the Tibetan people kept running up to him
and sang the "please don't go, your holiness" song and were able to
convince him that the PLA was not killing people like the last time.
So, Da Lama sticked around for another what? Eight more years to be
exact: 1951-1959 before he finally ran with the CIA and his hoard of
gold!
The lamas never provided a good life for the masses. They exploit
Buddhism and made it into a state religion and misled the people to
slave for them and the "nobles". The lamas belong to the past and so
let them be. See what Cui Yuying, a prominent contemporary Tibetan
Chinese woman, has to say about the obsolescence of the Tibetan Lama
politics.
Please keep in mind that had the lamas continued to hold sway in
Tibet, instead of the egalitarian influence of the CCP, neither Cui
Yuying nor Tsering Woeser would have a voice, speaking about the
conditions in Tibet in their respective ways. Women would still be in
a state in which they "know nothing about equal rights and are quite
happy as they are" (during the years Herr Heinrich Harrer was in
Lhasa: 1944-1951).
So, let Tibetan feudalism be deeply buried with the past.
lo yeeOn
Let the lama politics be eternally buried:
Tibetans don't want repatriation of Dalai Lama: Chinese Vice Minister
Cui
SUBODH GAUTAM
Sas
Jun 3, 2013, 11:11:21 PM6/3/13
to
We can care but not care if ..
"The Progressive Voice" wrote in message
news:25fe8032-1954-476e...@pd6g2000pbc.googlegroups.com...
lo yeeOn
Jun 3, 2013, 11:33:38 PM6/3/13
to
In article <2815411.nDygROTQN9@Dharma>,
which was founded in the year 1644. If the theocratic feudal society
In other words, Tibet has been a part of China for hundreds of years -
in fact since 1644, the year China's Qing Dynasty was founded.
>
Peter Terpstra <peter.t...@gmail.com> wrote:
>10 Unsettling Reasons You Should Care About What's Happening In Tibet !
>
>Michael Kelley
>
>Tibet, a plateau 13,000 feet above sea level that sits between China and
>India, remained largely isolated for centuries. It had
>its own national flag, currency, culture and religion within a
>population of nomads, farmers, monks and traders dispersed over
>territory about the size of Western Europe.
Tibet has been on the map as part of China since the Qing Dynasty,
>10 Unsettling Reasons You Should Care About What's Happening In Tibet !
>
>Michael Kelley
>
>Tibet, a plateau 13,000 feet above sea level that sits between China and
>India, remained largely isolated for centuries. It had
>its own national flag, currency, culture and religion within a
>population of nomads, farmers, monks and traders dispersed over
>territory about the size of Western Europe.
which was founded in the year 1644. If the theocratic feudal society
controlled by the lamas and "nobles" had only a small army as Michael
Kelley said in the next paragraph, then the size of "Western Europe"
is not a land that could be defended. And indeed, Tibet has always
been only a part of China, nothing more!
If Tibet was ever a sovereign country, it would have been a member of
the United Nations in 1945 when the world body was founded - a full
four years before the communists seized power. But Tibet has never
been recognized by any country as a country.
Da Lama was a tool for the lamas and "nobles" who ruled feudal Tibet
and since he fled Tibet, Da Lama became a tool for the West to stir up
troubles in Tibet for the purpose of destabilizing China. Da Lama has
always existed for nothing except serving as the tools of his wealthy
paymasters.
>
Kelley said in the next paragraph, then the size of "Western Europe"
is not a land that could be defended. And indeed, Tibet has always
been only a part of China, nothing more!
If Tibet was ever a sovereign country, it would have been a member of
the United Nations in 1945 when the world body was founded - a full
four years before the communists seized power. But Tibet has never
been recognized by any country as a country.
Da Lama was a tool for the lamas and "nobles" who ruled feudal Tibet
and since he fled Tibet, Da Lama became a tool for the West to stir up
troubles in Tibet for the purpose of destabilizing China. Da Lama has
always existed for nothing except serving as the tools of his wealthy
paymasters.
>
>In October 1950 "following the foundation of the People's Republic of
>China in October 1949" the People's Liberation Army entered Tibet and
>overwhelmed its tiny army. The Chinese government began asserting its
>claim that Tibet was part of Chinese territory and that its people
>were crying out for liberation from imperialist forces and the
>government in Lhasa.
>China in October 1949" the People's Liberation Army entered Tibet and
>overwhelmed its tiny army. The Chinese government began asserting its
>claim that Tibet was part of Chinese territory and that its people
>were crying out for liberation from imperialist forces and the
>government in Lhasa.
Read the Wikipedia, the Chinese governemnt did not begin to assert its
claim over Tibet only after the PRC was founded.
Again, if Tibet was ever a sovereign country, it would have been a
member of the United Nations in 1945 when the world body was founded -
a full four years before the communists seized power. But Tibet has
never been recognized by any country as a country. The reason that
Tibet was not recognized as a country in the UN in 1945 was because
the Nationalist government of China (ROC) insisted that Tibet could
not be admitted. Since China has always been a veto member in the
UNSC, of course Tibet could not simply claim its way into the UN.
claim over Tibet only after the PRC was founded.
Again, if Tibet was ever a sovereign country, it would have been a
member of the United Nations in 1945 when the world body was founded -
a full four years before the communists seized power. But Tibet has
never been recognized by any country as a country. The reason that
Tibet was not recognized as a country in the UN in 1945 was because
the Nationalist government of China (ROC) insisted that Tibet could
not be admitted. Since China has always been a veto member in the
In other words, Tibet has been a part of China for hundreds of years -
in fact since 1644, the year China's Qing Dynasty was founded.
>
>In March 1959 Tibetans rebelled against the occupiers. The uprising
>was crushed and the Tibetan leader, the 14th Dalai Lama, fled to
>India (followed by more than 80,000 Tibetans). Tens of thousands of
>Tibetans who remained were killed or imprisoned.
>was crushed and the Tibetan leader, the 14th Dalai Lama, fled to
>India (followed by more than 80,000 Tibetans). Tens of thousands of
>Tibetans who remained were killed or imprisoned.
In fact, according to Heinrich Harrer, Da Lama (Dalai Lama no.14) was
fleeing as early as 1951 when news of the PLA was coming.
Da Lama has always been a coward who is preoccupied with toys and
expensive Swiss clocks and watches and owned a hoard of gold. And in
fact, his mother who was "living in a palace in Lhasa and owning many
large properties across Tibet" had already fled to India when Da Lama
began to flee.
Da Lama stopped only when the Tibetans kept catching up with his
slowly moving south-bound entourage and begging him to stay "because
the PLA did not come in and slaughter people as the Chinese army did"
fleeing as early as 1951 when news of the PLA was coming.
Da Lama has always been a coward who is preoccupied with toys and
expensive Swiss clocks and watches and owned a hoard of gold. And in
fact, his mother who was "living in a palace in Lhasa and owning many
large properties across Tibet" had already fled to India when Da Lama
began to flee.
Da Lama stopped only when the Tibetans kept catching up with his
slowly moving south-bound entourage and begging him to stay "because
several decades before in 1912 when Tibet declared independence (like
many other Chinese provinces had done at the time due to the failing
of the Qing Dynasty).
So Da Lama stayed. And in fact, he was invited to Beijing and was
wined and dined by Mao who tried to persuade him to agree to the
communist's universal land reform for China. But it is false to claim
that 1959 was the first time Da Lama fled Tibet. He was a coward and
he fled as early as 1951 when he heard the PLA was coming.
But despite Da Lama's interlocution with Mao and company in Beijing,
he was secretly working with the CIA, mostly through his relatives and
aides, and staged a brief rebellion in 1959 which was defeated in two
short weeks.
The death toll was from the rebellion - which was put down in two
short weeks - not from staying behind. CIA agents who were a part of
the 1959 rebellion have reported that the PLA was very disciplined and
did not kill many of those they had captured earlier.
And of course, the 2008 violent protests in Lhasa and elsewhere were
many other Chinese provinces had done at the time due to the failing
of the Qing Dynasty).
So Da Lama stayed. And in fact, he was invited to Beijing and was
wined and dined by Mao who tried to persuade him to agree to the
communist's universal land reform for China. But it is false to claim
that 1959 was the first time Da Lama fled Tibet. He was a coward and
he fled as early as 1951 when he heard the PLA was coming.
But despite Da Lama's interlocution with Mao and company in Beijing,
he was secretly working with the CIA, mostly through his relatives and
aides, and staged a brief rebellion in 1959 which was defeated in two
short weeks.
The death toll was from the rebellion - which was put down in two
short weeks - not from staying behind. CIA agents who were a part of
the 1959 rebellion have reported that the PLA was very disciplined and
did not kill many of those they had captured earlier.
funded by US money as China was the focus of the world's attention for
hosting the 2008 Summer Olympics.
And of course, the recent self-immolation incidents were desparate
attempts from the outside.
For as long as billions of USD is funded by the US Congress to keep
Tibet a political issue for China, Tibet cannot have peace and all
that is said negatively about China in the name of religious freedom
and human rights in Tibet is just rumor and more rumor of little
credibility. It is a sad story for the Tibetan people because the
West is just using them, instead of really doing something to improve
their well being.
lo yeeOn
Let the lama politics be eternally buried:
Tibetans don't want repatriation of Dalai Lama: Chinese Vice Minister
Cui
SUBODH GAUTAM
http://www.myrepublica.com/portal/index.php?action=news_details&news_id=54605
hosting the 2008 Summer Olympics.
And of course, the recent self-immolation incidents were desparate
attempts from the outside.
For as long as billions of USD is funded by the US Congress to keep
Tibet a political issue for China, Tibet cannot have peace and all
that is said negatively about China in the name of religious freedom
and human rights in Tibet is just rumor and more rumor of little
credibility. It is a sad story for the Tibetan people because the
West is just using them, instead of really doing something to improve
their well being.
lo yeeOn
Let the lama politics be eternally buried:
Tibetans don't want repatriation of Dalai Lama: Chinese Vice Minister
Cui
SUBODH GAUTAM
lo yeeOn
Jun 4, 2013, 1:48:45 AM6/4/13
to
In article <3823caa3-3483-4eec...@s2g2000pbz.googlegroups.com>,
actually said.
Tibet was a part of China since 1644! That means that it was and has
not changed ever since. I made clear in my original follow-up that
Tibet had an opportunity to be a UN member, at least in 1945 (years
before the "evil" CCP came into Tibet and drove Da Lama out to India),
if the world had deemed it a worthy nation. But Tibet never made it!
By contrast, both Koreas (N. Korea and S. Korea) have been members of
matter how valid the messages themselves are. Way to go Jigme, you've
just shown people how supporters of the lama-agenda have no integrity.
lo yeeOn
Let the lama politics be eternally buried:
Tibetans don't want repatriation of Dalai Lama: Chinese Vice Minister
Cui
SUBODH GAUTAM
http://www.myrepublica.com/portal/index.php?action=news_details&news_id=54605
--------------------------------
My original follow-up to Terpstra's "10 Unsettling reasons...":
Subject: Lies, not Reasons! Re: 10 Unsettling Reasons You Should Care
About...
In article <2815411.nDygROTQN9@Dharma>,
In other words, Tibet has been a part of China for hundreds of years -
in fact since 1644, the year China's Qing Dynasty was founded.
>
>In March 1959 Tibetans rebelled against the occupiers. The uprising
>was crushed and the Tibetan leader, the 14th Dalai Lama, fled to
>India (followed by more than 80,000 Tibetans). Tens of thousands of
>Tibetans who remained were killed or imprisoned.
In fact, according to Heinrich Harrer, Da Lama (Dalai Lama no.14) was
fleeing as early as 1951 when news of the PLA was coming.
Da Lama has always been a coward who is preoccupied with toys and
expensive Swiss clocks and watches and owned a hoard of gold. And in
fact, his mother who was "living in a palace in Lhasa and owning many
large properties across Tibet" had already fled to India when Da Lama
began to flee.
Da Lama stopped only when the Tibetans kept catching up with his
slowly moving south-bound entourage and begging him to stay "because
the PLA did not come in and slaughter people as the Chinese army did"
The Progressive Voice <thomasw...@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Jun 3, 3:44� am, acous...@panix.com (lo yeeOn) wrote:
>> In article <2815411.nDygROTQN9@Dharma>,
>> Peter Terpstra � <peter.terpst...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >10 Unsettling Reasons You Should Care About What's Happening In Tibet!
>>
>> >Michael Kelley
>>
>> >Tibet, a plateau 13,000 feet above sea level that sits between
>> >China and India, remained largely isolated for centuries. It had
>> >its own national flag, currency, culture and religion within a
>> >population of nomads, farmers, monks and traders dispersed over
>> >territory about the size of Western Europe.
>>
>> Tibet has been in the Chinese map since the Qing Dynasty,
>
>Yah and South Korea was listed on chinese maps during that territory
>as sovereign territory. It had to do with the Qing imperial philosophy
>that it was center of the universe. No one is claiming South Korea
>today as part of china. Also the status of Tibet under the Qing was
>like the relationship with the Vatican in Rome shared with the Italian
>state. The Qing Dynasty, like Italy and the vatican, were only tasked
>with the border defense of Tibet. Regardless of this fact when the
>Qing Dynasty fell in 1911 Tibet declared independence.
>thomaswheat1975
Tom Jigme Wheat, how low are you going to stoop? Do you have any
>> In article <2815411.nDygROTQN9@Dharma>,
>> Peter Terpstra � <peter.terpst...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >10 Unsettling Reasons You Should Care About What's Happening In Tibet!
>>
>> >Michael Kelley
>>
>> >Tibet, a plateau 13,000 feet above sea level that sits between
>> >China and India, remained largely isolated for centuries. It had
>> >its own national flag, currency, culture and religion within a
>> >population of nomads, farmers, monks and traders dispersed over
>> >territory about the size of Western Europe.
>>
>> Tibet has been in the Chinese map since the Qing Dynasty,
>
>Yah and South Korea was listed on chinese maps during that territory
>as sovereign territory. It had to do with the Qing imperial philosophy
>that it was center of the universe. No one is claiming South Korea
>today as part of china. Also the status of Tibet under the Qing was
>like the relationship with the Vatican in Rome shared with the Italian
>state. The Qing Dynasty, like Italy and the vatican, were only tasked
>with the border defense of Tibet. Regardless of this fact when the
>Qing Dynasty fell in 1911 Tibet declared independence.
>thomaswheat1975
intellectual honesty left that will help you retain a modicum of
credibility around these newsgroups as a poster?
You don't attack a multi-paragraph post by taking its first sentence
out of context. In this case, there was nothing wrong with what I
credibility around these newsgroups as a poster?
You don't attack a multi-paragraph post by taking its first sentence
actually said.
Tibet was a part of China since 1644! That means that it was and has
Tibet had an opportunity to be a UN member, at least in 1945 (years
before the "evil" CCP came into Tibet and drove Da Lama out to India),
if the world had deemed it a worthy nation. But Tibet never made it!
By contrast, both Koreas (N. Korea and S. Korea) have been members of
the UN for decades.
So now I can see that you are posting just to create distraction from
the messages that speak unfavorably of the lama-agenda for Tibet - no
So now I can see that you are posting just to create distraction from
matter how valid the messages themselves are. Way to go Jigme, you've
just shown people how supporters of the lama-agenda have no integrity.
lo yeeOn
Let the lama politics be eternally buried:
Tibetans don't want repatriation of Dalai Lama: Chinese Vice Minister
Cui
SUBODH GAUTAM
My original follow-up to Terpstra's "10 Unsettling reasons...":
Subject: Lies, not Reasons! Re: 10 Unsettling Reasons You Should Care
About...
In article <2815411.nDygROTQN9@Dharma>,
Peter Terpstra <peter.t...@gmail.com> wrote:
>10 Unsettling Reasons You Should Care About What's Happening In Tibet !
>
>Michael Kelley
>
>Tibet, a plateau 13,000 feet above sea level that sits between China and
>India, remained largely isolated for centuries. It had
>its own national flag, currency, culture and religion within a
>population of nomads, farmers, monks and traders dispersed over
>territory about the size of Western Europe.
>10 Unsettling Reasons You Should Care About What's Happening In Tibet !
>
>Michael Kelley
>
>Tibet, a plateau 13,000 feet above sea level that sits between China and
>India, remained largely isolated for centuries. It had
>its own national flag, currency, culture and religion within a
>population of nomads, farmers, monks and traders dispersed over
>territory about the size of Western Europe.
Tibet has been on the map as part of China since the Qing Dynasty,
which was founded in the year 1644. If the theocratic feudal society
controlled by the lamas and "nobles" had only a small army as Michael
Kelley said in the next paragraph, then the size of "Western Europe"
is not a land that could be defended. And indeed, Tibet has always
been only a part of China, nothing more!
If Tibet were ever a sovereign country, it would have been a member of
controlled by the lamas and "nobles" had only a small army as Michael
Kelley said in the next paragraph, then the size of "Western Europe"
is not a land that could be defended. And indeed, Tibet has always
been only a part of China, nothing more!
the United Nations in 1945 when the world body was founded - a full
four years before the communists seized power. But Tibet has never
been recognized by any country as a country.
Da Lama was a tool for the lamas and "nobles" who ruled feudal Tibet
and since he fled Tibet, Da Lama became a tool for the West to stir up
troubles in Tibet for the purpose of destabilizing China. Da Lama has
always existed for nothing except serving as the tools of his wealthy
paymasters.
>
>In October 1950 "following the foundation of the People's Republic of
>China in October 1949" the People's Liberation Army entered Tibet and
>overwhelmed its tiny army. The Chinese government began asserting its
>claim that Tibet was part of Chinese territory and that its people
>were crying out for liberation from imperialist forces and the
>government in Lhasa.
Read the Wikipedia, the Chinese governemnt did not begin to assert its
claim over Tibet only after the PRC was founded.
Again, if Tibet was ever a sovereign country, it would have been a
member of the United Nations in 1945 when the world body was founded -
a full four years before the communists seized power. But Tibet has
never been recognized by any country as a country. The reason that
Tibet was not recognized as a country in the UN in 1945 was because
the Nationalist government of China (ROC) insisted that Tibet could
not be admitted. Since China has always been a veto member in the
UNSC, of course Tibet could not simply claim its way into the UN.
four years before the communists seized power. But Tibet has never
been recognized by any country as a country.
Da Lama was a tool for the lamas and "nobles" who ruled feudal Tibet
and since he fled Tibet, Da Lama became a tool for the West to stir up
troubles in Tibet for the purpose of destabilizing China. Da Lama has
always existed for nothing except serving as the tools of his wealthy
paymasters.
>
>In October 1950 "following the foundation of the People's Republic of
>China in October 1949" the People's Liberation Army entered Tibet and
>overwhelmed its tiny army. The Chinese government began asserting its
>claim that Tibet was part of Chinese territory and that its people
>were crying out for liberation from imperialist forces and the
>government in Lhasa.
Read the Wikipedia, the Chinese governemnt did not begin to assert its
claim over Tibet only after the PRC was founded.
Again, if Tibet was ever a sovereign country, it would have been a
member of the United Nations in 1945 when the world body was founded -
a full four years before the communists seized power. But Tibet has
never been recognized by any country as a country. The reason that
Tibet was not recognized as a country in the UN in 1945 was because
the Nationalist government of China (ROC) insisted that Tibet could
not be admitted. Since China has always been a veto member in the
In other words, Tibet has been a part of China for hundreds of years -
in fact since 1644, the year China's Qing Dynasty was founded.
>
>In March 1959 Tibetans rebelled against the occupiers. The uprising
>was crushed and the Tibetan leader, the 14th Dalai Lama, fled to
>India (followed by more than 80,000 Tibetans). Tens of thousands of
>Tibetans who remained were killed or imprisoned.
In fact, according to Heinrich Harrer, Da Lama (Dalai Lama no.14) was
fleeing as early as 1951 when news of the PLA was coming.
Da Lama has always been a coward who is preoccupied with toys and
expensive Swiss clocks and watches and owned a hoard of gold. And in
fact, his mother who was "living in a palace in Lhasa and owning many
large properties across Tibet" had already fled to India when Da Lama
began to flee.
Da Lama stopped only when the Tibetans kept catching up with his
slowly moving south-bound entourage and begging him to stay "because
several decades before in 1912 when Tibet declared independence (like
many other Chinese provinces had done at the time due to the failing
of the Qing Dynasty).
So Da Lama stayed. And in fact, he was invited to Beijing and was
wined and dined by Mao who tried to persuade him to agree to the
communist's universal land reform for China. But it is false to claim
that 1959 was the first time Da Lama fled Tibet. He was a coward and
he fled as early as 1951 when he heard the PLA was coming.
But despite Da Lama's interlocution with Mao and company in Beijing,
he was secretly working with the CIA, mostly through his relatives and
aides, and staged a brief rebellion in 1959 which was defeated in two
short weeks.
The death toll was from the rebellion - which was put down in two
short weeks - not from staying behind. CIA agents who were a part of
the 1959 rebellion have reported that the PLA was very disciplined and
did not kill many of those they had captured earlier.
And of course, the 2008 violent protests in Lhasa and elsewhere were
many other Chinese provinces had done at the time due to the failing
of the Qing Dynasty).
So Da Lama stayed. And in fact, he was invited to Beijing and was
wined and dined by Mao who tried to persuade him to agree to the
communist's universal land reform for China. But it is false to claim
that 1959 was the first time Da Lama fled Tibet. He was a coward and
he fled as early as 1951 when he heard the PLA was coming.
But despite Da Lama's interlocution with Mao and company in Beijing,
he was secretly working with the CIA, mostly through his relatives and
aides, and staged a brief rebellion in 1959 which was defeated in two
short weeks.
The death toll was from the rebellion - which was put down in two
short weeks - not from staying behind. CIA agents who were a part of
the 1959 rebellion have reported that the PLA was very disciplined and
did not kill many of those they had captured earlier.
funded by US money as China was the focus of the world's attention for
hosting the 2008 Summer Olympics.
And of course, the recent self-immolation incidents were desparate
attempts from the outside.
For as long as billions of USD is funded by the US Congress to keep
Tibet a political issue for China, Tibet cannot have peace and all
that is said negatively about China in the name of religious freedom
and human rights in Tibet is just rumor and more rumor of little
credibility. It is a sad story for the Tibetan people because the
West is just using them, instead of really doing something to improve
their well being.
lo yeeOn
Let the lama politics be eternally buried:
Tibetans don't want repatriation of Dalai Lama: Chinese Vice Minister
Cui
SUBODH GAUTAM
http://www.myrepublica.com/portal/index.php?action=news_details&news_id=54605
hosting the 2008 Summer Olympics.
And of course, the recent self-immolation incidents were desparate
attempts from the outside.
For as long as billions of USD is funded by the US Congress to keep
Tibet a political issue for China, Tibet cannot have peace and all
that is said negatively about China in the name of religious freedom
and human rights in Tibet is just rumor and more rumor of little
credibility. It is a sad story for the Tibetan people because the
West is just using them, instead of really doing something to improve
their well being.
lo yeeOn
Let the lama politics be eternally buried:
Tibetans don't want repatriation of Dalai Lama: Chinese Vice Minister
Cui
SUBODH GAUTAM
lo yeeOn
Jun 4, 2013, 2:13:01 AM6/4/13
to
In article <25fe8032-1954-476e...@pd6g2000pbc.googlegroups.com>,
birthplace of the founding father of the Republic of China: Sun
Yat-Sen). What happened to those provinces, of which Tibet was one,
history of Tibet? These days, all the lamas-agenda supporters just
resort to lies instead of steeling themselves to face the hard truth
of the lamas' sorry situation in the modern times.)
But of course, as Da Lama was fleeing south but remained in that part
of Tibet closest to India, the Tibetan people kept running up to him
and sang the "please don't go, your holiness" song and were able to
convince him that the PLA was not killing people like the last time.
So, Da Lama stuck around for another what? Eight more years to be
Buddhism and made it into a state religion and misled the people in
order to enslave them for their benefits and the "nobles"'. The lamas
belong to the past and so let them be part of the past. See what Cui
in Beijing - the Chinese capital) would have a voice, speaking about
the conditions in Tibet from their different perspectives. Tibetan
women would still be in a state in which they "know nothing about
edition.]
So, let Tibetan feudalism be deeply buried with the past.
--------------------------------
My original follow-up to Terpstra's 10 Unsettling...
Subject: Lies, not Reasons! Re: 10 Unsettling Reasons You Should Care
About...
In article <2815411.nDygROTQN9@Dharma>,
which was founded in the year 1644. If the theocratic feudal society
In other words, Tibet has been a part of China for hundreds of years -
in fact since 1644, the year China's Qing Dynasty was founded.
>
>In March 1959 Tibetans rebelled against the occupiers. The uprising
>was crushed and the Tibetan leader, the 14th Dalai Lama, fled to
>India (followed by more than 80,000 Tibetans). Tens of thousands of
>Tibetans who remained were killed or imprisoned.
In fact, according to Heinrich Harrer, Da Lama (Dalai Lama no.14) was
fleeing as early as 1951 when news of the PLA was coming.
Da Lama has always been a coward who is preoccupied with toys and
expensive Swiss clocks and watches and owned a hoard of gold. And in
fact, his mother who was "living in a palace in Lhasa and owning many
large properties across Tibet" had already fled to India when Da Lama
began to flee.
Da Lama stopped only when the Tibetans kept catching up with his
slowly moving south-bound entourage and begging him to stay "because
the PLA did not come in and slaughter people as the Chinese army did"
The Progressive Voice <thomasw...@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Jun 3, 3:44 am, acous...@panix.com (lo yeeOn) wrote:
>> In article <2815411.nDygROTQN9@Dharma>,
>> Peter Terpstra <peter.terpst...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >10 Unsettling Reasons You Should Care About What's Happening In Tibet!
>>
>> >Michael Kelley
>>
>> >Tibet, a plateau 13,000 feet above sea level that sits between
>> >China and India, remained largely isolated for centuries. It had
>> >its own national flag, currency, culture and religion within a
>> >population of nomads, farmers, monks and traders dispersed over
>> >territory about the size of Western Europe.
>>
>> Tibet has been in the Chinese map since the Qing Dynasty, which was
>> founded in the year 1644.
>>
>Yah and South Korea was listed on chinese maps during that time as
>sovereign territory. It had to do with the Qing imperial philosophy
>that diplomatically, it was center of the universe. No one is
>claiming South Korea today as part of china. Also the status of Tibet
>under the Qing was like the relationship with the Vatican in Rome
>shared with the Italian state. The Qing Dynasty, like Italy and the
>vatican, were only tasked with the border defense of Tibet.
>Regardless of this fact when the Qing Dynasty fell in 1911 Tibet
>declared independence.
>thomaswheat1975
>> In article <2815411.nDygROTQN9@Dharma>,
>> Peter Terpstra <peter.terpst...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >10 Unsettling Reasons You Should Care About What's Happening In Tibet!
>>
>> >Michael Kelley
>>
>> >Tibet, a plateau 13,000 feet above sea level that sits between
>> >China and India, remained largely isolated for centuries. It had
>> >its own national flag, currency, culture and religion within a
>> >population of nomads, farmers, monks and traders dispersed over
>> >territory about the size of Western Europe.
>>
>> Tibet has been in the Chinese map since the Qing Dynasty, which was
>> founded in the year 1644.
>>
>Yah and South Korea was listed on chinese maps during that time as
>sovereign territory. It had to do with the Qing imperial philosophy
>that diplomatically, it was center of the universe. No one is
>claiming South Korea today as part of china. Also the status of Tibet
>under the Qing was like the relationship with the Vatican in Rome
>shared with the Italian state. The Qing Dynasty, like Italy and the
>vatican, were only tasked with the border defense of Tibet.
>Regardless of this fact when the Qing Dynasty fell in 1911 Tibet
>declared independence.
>thomaswheat1975
Sorry to see you stooped so low to make such an unsupported argument.
I have pointed out many times that the declaration of independence in
1911 at the fall of the Qing Dynasty means little. In 1911-12, just
about every other province in China had an uprising or declared
independence, including the populous Guangdong province (also the
I have pointed out many times that the declaration of independence in
1911 at the fall of the Qing Dynasty means little. In 1911-12, just
about every other province in China had an uprising or declared
birthplace of the founding father of the Republic of China: Sun
Yat-Sen). What happened to those provinces, of which Tibet was one,
afterwards? Within a year, all rebellions were vanquished, including
the one in Tibet! In fact, the Dalai Lama no.13 fled to Sikkim, a
province of India at the time. And in fact, Heinrich Harrer, lonely
Da Lama's Austrian personal tutor for several years prior to 1951,
mentioned how the Tibetans reacted at first when they heard that the
CCP was coming!
Harrer observe:
Da Lama's Austrian personal tutor for several years prior to 1951,
mentioned how the Tibetans reacted at first when they heard that the
CCP was coming!
They were very afraid because they remembered or were told that the
last time the Chinese came (that was in response to Tibet's hasty
declaration of independence), the general was merciless and killed
many Tibetans.
(Actually, the central government of the newly born ROC was unhappy
with the general's treatment of the Tibetans who were considered,
rightly, a Chinese ethnic minority and executed the general. In
addition, it sent a representative to apologize to the Dalai Lama
no.13 who haughtily gave an "I don't give a damn what you think"
reply. It is hilarious, isn't it, as we look back at the modern
last time the Chinese came (that was in response to Tibet's hasty
declaration of independence), the general was merciless and killed
many Tibetans.
(Actually, the central government of the newly born ROC was unhappy
with the general's treatment of the Tibetans who were considered,
rightly, a Chinese ethnic minority and executed the general. In
addition, it sent a representative to apologize to the Dalai Lama
no.13 who haughtily gave an "I don't give a damn what you think"
history of Tibet? These days, all the lamas-agenda supporters just
resort to lies instead of steeling themselves to face the hard truth
of the lamas' sorry situation in the modern times.)
But of course, as Da Lama was fleeing south but remained in that part
of Tibet closest to India, the Tibetan people kept running up to him
and sang the "please don't go, your holiness" song and were able to
convince him that the PLA was not killing people like the last time.
exact: 1951-1959 before he finally ran with the CIA and his hoard of
gold!
The lamas never provided a good life for the masses. They exploited
gold!
Buddhism and made it into a state religion and misled the people in
order to enslave them for their benefits and the "nobles"'. The lamas
belong to the past and so let them be part of the past. See what Cui
Yuying, a prominent contemporary Tibetan Chinese woman, has to say
about the obsolescence of the Tibetan Lama politics.
Please keep in mind that had the lamas continued to hold sway in
Tibet, instead of the egalitarian influence of the CCP, neither Cui
Yuying nor Tsering Woeser (who is an anti-CCP Tibetan activist living
about the obsolescence of the Tibetan Lama politics.
Please keep in mind that had the lamas continued to hold sway in
Tibet, instead of the egalitarian influence of the CCP, neither Cui
in Beijing - the Chinese capital) would have a voice, speaking about
the conditions in Tibet from their different perspectives. Tibetan
women would still be in a state in which they "know nothing about
equal rights and are quite happy as they are" (during the years Herr
Heinrich Harrer was in Lhasa: 1944-1951). [See p.159 Dutton English
edition.]
So, let Tibetan feudalism be deeply buried with the past.
lo yeeOn
Let the lama politics be eternally buried:
Tibetans don't want repatriation of Dalai Lama: Chinese Vice Minister
Cui
SUBODH GAUTAM
http://www.myrepublica.com/portal/index.php?action=news_details&news_id=54605
Let the lama politics be eternally buried:
Tibetans don't want repatriation of Dalai Lama: Chinese Vice Minister
Cui
SUBODH GAUTAM
My original follow-up to Terpstra's 10 Unsettling...
Subject: Lies, not Reasons! Re: 10 Unsettling Reasons You Should Care
About...
In article <2815411.nDygROTQN9@Dharma>,
Peter Terpstra <peter.t...@gmail.com> wrote:
>10 Unsettling Reasons You Should Care About What's Happening In Tibet !
>
>Michael Kelley
>
>Tibet, a plateau 13,000 feet above sea level that sits between China and
>India, remained largely isolated for centuries. It had
>its own national flag, currency, culture and religion within a
>population of nomads, farmers, monks and traders dispersed over
>territory about the size of Western Europe.
Tibet has been on the map as part of China since the Qing Dynasty,
>10 Unsettling Reasons You Should Care About What's Happening In Tibet !
>
>Michael Kelley
>
>Tibet, a plateau 13,000 feet above sea level that sits between China and
>India, remained largely isolated for centuries. It had
>its own national flag, currency, culture and religion within a
>population of nomads, farmers, monks and traders dispersed over
>territory about the size of Western Europe.
which was founded in the year 1644. If the theocratic feudal society
controlled by the lamas and "nobles" had only a small army as Michael
Kelley said in the next paragraph, then the size of "Western Europe"
is not a land that could be defended. And indeed, Tibet has always
been only a part of China, nothing more!
If Tibet were ever a sovereign country, it would have been a member of
Kelley said in the next paragraph, then the size of "Western Europe"
is not a land that could be defended. And indeed, Tibet has always
been only a part of China, nothing more!
the United Nations in 1945 when the world body was founded - a full
four years before the communists seized power. But Tibet has never
been recognized by any country as a country.
Da Lama was a tool for the lamas and "nobles" who ruled feudal Tibet
and since he fled Tibet, Da Lama became a tool for the West to stir up
troubles in Tibet for the purpose of destabilizing China. Da Lama has
always existed for nothing except serving as the tools of his wealthy
paymasters.
>
>In October 1950 "following the foundation of the People's Republic of
>China in October 1949" the People's Liberation Army entered Tibet and
>overwhelmed its tiny army. The Chinese government began asserting its
>claim that Tibet was part of Chinese territory and that its people
>were crying out for liberation from imperialist forces and the
>government in Lhasa.
Read the Wikipedia, the Chinese governemnt did not begin to assert its
claim over Tibet only after the PRC was founded.
Again, if Tibet was ever a sovereign country, it would have been a
member of the United Nations in 1945 when the world body was founded -
a full four years before the communists seized power. But Tibet has
never been recognized by any country as a country. The reason that
Tibet was not recognized as a country in the UN in 1945 was because
the Nationalist government of China (ROC) insisted that Tibet could
not be admitted. Since China has always been a veto member in the
UNSC, of course Tibet could not simply claim its way into the UN.
four years before the communists seized power. But Tibet has never
been recognized by any country as a country.
Da Lama was a tool for the lamas and "nobles" who ruled feudal Tibet
and since he fled Tibet, Da Lama became a tool for the West to stir up
troubles in Tibet for the purpose of destabilizing China. Da Lama has
always existed for nothing except serving as the tools of his wealthy
paymasters.
>
>In October 1950 "following the foundation of the People's Republic of
>China in October 1949" the People's Liberation Army entered Tibet and
>overwhelmed its tiny army. The Chinese government began asserting its
>claim that Tibet was part of Chinese territory and that its people
>were crying out for liberation from imperialist forces and the
>government in Lhasa.
Read the Wikipedia, the Chinese governemnt did not begin to assert its
claim over Tibet only after the PRC was founded.
Again, if Tibet was ever a sovereign country, it would have been a
member of the United Nations in 1945 when the world body was founded -
a full four years before the communists seized power. But Tibet has
never been recognized by any country as a country. The reason that
Tibet was not recognized as a country in the UN in 1945 was because
the Nationalist government of China (ROC) insisted that Tibet could
not be admitted. Since China has always been a veto member in the
In other words, Tibet has been a part of China for hundreds of years -
in fact since 1644, the year China's Qing Dynasty was founded.
>
>In March 1959 Tibetans rebelled against the occupiers. The uprising
>was crushed and the Tibetan leader, the 14th Dalai Lama, fled to
>India (followed by more than 80,000 Tibetans). Tens of thousands of
>Tibetans who remained were killed or imprisoned.
In fact, according to Heinrich Harrer, Da Lama (Dalai Lama no.14) was
fleeing as early as 1951 when news of the PLA was coming.
Da Lama has always been a coward who is preoccupied with toys and
expensive Swiss clocks and watches and owned a hoard of gold. And in
fact, his mother who was "living in a palace in Lhasa and owning many
large properties across Tibet" had already fled to India when Da Lama
began to flee.
Da Lama stopped only when the Tibetans kept catching up with his
slowly moving south-bound entourage and begging him to stay "because
several decades before in 1912 when Tibet declared independence (like
many other Chinese provinces had done at the time due to the failing
of the Qing Dynasty).
So Da Lama stayed. And in fact, he was invited to Beijing and was
wined and dined by Mao who tried to persuade him to agree to the
communist's universal land reform for China. But it is false to claim
that 1959 was the first time Da Lama fled Tibet. He was a coward and
he fled as early as 1951 when he heard the PLA was coming.
But despite Da Lama's interlocution with Mao and company in Beijing,
he was secretly working with the CIA, mostly through his relatives and
aides, and staged a brief rebellion in 1959 which was defeated in two
short weeks.
The death toll was from the rebellion - which was put down in two
short weeks - not from staying behind. CIA agents who were a part of
the 1959 rebellion have reported that the PLA was very disciplined and
did not kill many of those they had captured earlier.
And of course, the 2008 violent protests in Lhasa and elsewhere were
many other Chinese provinces had done at the time due to the failing
of the Qing Dynasty).
So Da Lama stayed. And in fact, he was invited to Beijing and was
wined and dined by Mao who tried to persuade him to agree to the
communist's universal land reform for China. But it is false to claim
that 1959 was the first time Da Lama fled Tibet. He was a coward and
he fled as early as 1951 when he heard the PLA was coming.
But despite Da Lama's interlocution with Mao and company in Beijing,
he was secretly working with the CIA, mostly through his relatives and
aides, and staged a brief rebellion in 1959 which was defeated in two
short weeks.
The death toll was from the rebellion - which was put down in two
short weeks - not from staying behind. CIA agents who were a part of
the 1959 rebellion have reported that the PLA was very disciplined and
did not kill many of those they had captured earlier.
funded by US money as China was the focus of the world's attention for
hosting the 2008 Summer Olympics.
And of course, the recent self-immolation incidents were desparate
attempts from the outside.
For as long as billions of USD is funded by the US Congress to keep
Tibet a political issue for China, Tibet cannot have peace and all
that is said negatively about China in the name of religious freedom
and human rights in Tibet is just rumor and more rumor of little
credibility. It is a sad story for the Tibetan people because the
West is just using them, instead of really doing something to improve
their well being.
lo yeeOn
Let the lama politics be eternally buried:
Tibetans don't want repatriation of Dalai Lama: Chinese Vice Minister
Cui
SUBODH GAUTAM
http://www.myrepublica.com/portal/index.php?action=news_details&news_id=54605
hosting the 2008 Summer Olympics.
And of course, the recent self-immolation incidents were desparate
attempts from the outside.
For as long as billions of USD is funded by the US Congress to keep
Tibet a political issue for China, Tibet cannot have peace and all
that is said negatively about China in the name of religious freedom
and human rights in Tibet is just rumor and more rumor of little
credibility. It is a sad story for the Tibetan people because the
West is just using them, instead of really doing something to improve
their well being.
lo yeeOn
Let the lama politics be eternally buried:
Tibetans don't want repatriation of Dalai Lama: Chinese Vice Minister
Cui
SUBODH GAUTAM
rst9
Jun 4, 2013, 12:27:40 PM6/4/13
to
On Jun 3, 10:48 pm, acous...@panix.com (lo yeeOn) wrote:
> Tom Jigme Wheat, how low are you going to stoop?
And Tom Wheat, stop picking on your nose!!!
> Tom Jigme Wheat, how low are you going to stoop?
OLD CHINK LEE KUAN YEW , a HaKKa migrant
Jun 4, 2013, 12:44:28 PM6/4/13
to
when German Alpine team climbed the K - 2 peak
just before WW- II ,
the Germans did not ask permission from China for entry
into Tibet 's K- 2 region
On Jun 4, 2:09 am, The Progressive Voice <thomaswheat1...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> ...
>
> read more »
just before WW- II ,
the Germans did not ask permission from China for entry
into Tibet 's K- 2 region
On Jun 4, 2:09 am, The Progressive Voice <thomaswheat1...@gmail.com>
wrote:
>
> read more »
The Progressive Voice
Jun 4, 2013, 3:14:07 PM6/4/13
to
I see I have struck a nerve with you.
Tibet was not sovereign territory of the Qing Dynasty. The Qing sent
troops to Tibet at the request of the dalai lama to drive out the
mongols and Gurkkas. Tibet had its own written set of laws and payed
no taxes to the Qing crown. The dalai lama also became the chief
confessor for the Qing emperor Kang xi and and Tibet enjoyed Suzerain
status with the Qing only responsible for border defense. Tibet was
like the Vatican for Qing dynasty china. The only reason Tibet was not
recognized as a state by the UN was because the US dominated the UN at
the time and was allied with the KMT and the Nationalists were making
claims on Tibet at that time, which later they rescinded.
The fact remains the CCP was a foreign occupying force in Tibet and do
not hold the will of the Tibetan people.
On Jun 3, 10:48 pm, acous...@panix.com (lo yeeOn) wrote:
> In article <3823caa3-3483-4eec-a507-8f42cc710...@s2g2000pbz.googlegroups.com>,
> http://www.myrepublica.com/portal/index.php?action=news_details&news_...
> ...
>
> read more »
Tibet was not sovereign territory of the Qing Dynasty. The Qing sent
troops to Tibet at the request of the dalai lama to drive out the
mongols and Gurkkas. Tibet had its own written set of laws and payed
no taxes to the Qing crown. The dalai lama also became the chief
confessor for the Qing emperor Kang xi and and Tibet enjoyed Suzerain
status with the Qing only responsible for border defense. Tibet was
like the Vatican for Qing dynasty china. The only reason Tibet was not
recognized as a state by the UN was because the US dominated the UN at
the time and was allied with the KMT and the Nationalists were making
claims on Tibet at that time, which later they rescinded.
The fact remains the CCP was a foreign occupying force in Tibet and do
not hold the will of the Tibetan people.
On Jun 3, 10:48 pm, acous...@panix.com (lo yeeOn) wrote:
> In article <3823caa3-3483-4eec-a507-8f42cc710...@s2g2000pbz.googlegroups.com>,
>
> read more »
Tom Jigme Wheat
Jun 4, 2013, 3:47:06 PM6/4/13
to
Wusong
Jun 4, 2013, 4:00:04 PM6/4/13
to
On Jun 4, 12:47 pm, Tom Jigme Wheat <thomaswheat1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Tibet was not sovereign territory of the Qing Dynasty.
> Tibet was not sovereign territory of the Qing Dynasty.
lo yeeOn
Jun 4, 2013, 5:48:42 PM6/4/13
to
In article <3823caa3-3483-4eec...@s2g2000pbz.googlegroups.com>,
About...
In article <2815411.nDygROTQN9@Dharma>,
In other words, Tibet has been a part of China for hundreds of years -
in fact since 1644, the year China's Qing Dynasty was founded.
>
>In March 1959 Tibetans rebelled against the occupiers. The uprising
>was crushed and the Tibetan leader, the 14th Dalai Lama, fled to
>India (followed by more than 80,000 Tibetans). Tens of thousands of
>Tibetans who remained were killed or imprisoned.
In fact, according to Heinrich Harrer, Da Lama (Dalai Lama no.14) was
fleeing as early as 1951 when news of the PLA was coming.
Da Lama has always been a coward who is preoccupied with toys and
expensive Swiss clocks and watches and owned a hoard of gold. And in
fact, his mother who was "living in a palace in Lhasa and owning many
large properties across Tibet" had already fled to India when Da Lama
began to flee.
Da Lama stopped only when the Tibetans kept catching up with his
slowly moving south-bound entourage and begging him to stay "because
the PLA did not come in and slaughter people as the Chinese army did"
The Progressive Voice <thomasw...@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Jun 3, 3:44� am, acous...@panix.com (lo yeeOn) wrote:
>> In article <2815411.nDygROTQN9@Dharma>,
>> Peter Terpstra � <peter.terpst...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >10 Unsettling Reasons You Should Care About What's Happening In Tibet!
>>
>> >Michael Kelley
>>
>> >Tibet, a plateau 13,000 feet above sea level that sits between
>> >China and India, remained largely isolated for centuries. It had
>> >its own national flag, currency, culture and religion within a
>> >population of nomads, farmers, monks and traders dispersed over
>> >territory about the size of Western Europe.
>>
>> Tibet has been in the Chinese map since the Qing Dynasty,
>
>Yah and South Korea was listed on chinese maps during that territory
>as sovereign territory. It had to do with the Qing imperial philosophy
>that it was center of the universe. No one is claiming South Korea
>today as part of china. Also the status of Tibet under the Qing was
>like the relationship with the Vatican in Rome shared with the Italian
>state. The Qing Dynasty, like Italy and the vatican, were only tasked
>with the border defense of Tibet. Regardless of this fact when the
>Qing Dynasty fell in 1911 Tibet declared independence.
>thomaswheat1975
>> In article <2815411.nDygROTQN9@Dharma>,
>> Peter Terpstra � <peter.terpst...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >10 Unsettling Reasons You Should Care About What's Happening In Tibet!
>>
>> >Michael Kelley
>>
>> >Tibet, a plateau 13,000 feet above sea level that sits between
>> >China and India, remained largely isolated for centuries. It had
>> >its own national flag, currency, culture and religion within a
>> >population of nomads, farmers, monks and traders dispersed over
>> >territory about the size of Western Europe.
>>
>> Tibet has been in the Chinese map since the Qing Dynasty,
>
>Yah and South Korea was listed on chinese maps during that territory
>as sovereign territory. It had to do with the Qing imperial philosophy
>that it was center of the universe. No one is claiming South Korea
>today as part of china. Also the status of Tibet under the Qing was
>like the relationship with the Vatican in Rome shared with the Italian
>state. The Qing Dynasty, like Italy and the vatican, were only tasked
>with the border defense of Tibet. Regardless of this fact when the
>Qing Dynasty fell in 1911 Tibet declared independence.
>thomaswheat1975
Tom Jigme Wheat, how low are you going to stoop? Do you have any
intellectual honesty left that will help you retain a modicum of
credibility around these newsgroups as a poster?
You don't attack a multi-paragraph post by taking its first sentence
out of context. In this case, there was nothing wrong with what I
actually said.
Tibet has been a part of China since 1644! That means that it was and
intellectual honesty left that will help you retain a modicum of
credibility around these newsgroups as a poster?
You don't attack a multi-paragraph post by taking its first sentence
out of context. In this case, there was nothing wrong with what I
actually said.
has not changed ever since. I made clear in my original follow-up
that Tibet had an opportunity to be a UN member, at least in 1945
(years before the "evil" CCP came into Tibet and drove Da Lama out to
India), if the world had deemed it a worthy nation. But Tibet never
made it!
By contrast, both Koreas (N. Korea and S. Korea) have been members of
the UN for decades.
So now I can see that you are posting just to create distraction from
the messages that speak unfavorably of the lama-agenda for Tibet - no
matter how valid the messages themselves are. Way to go Jigme, you've
just shown people how supporters of the lama-agenda have no integrity.
that Tibet had an opportunity to be a UN member, at least in 1945
(years before the "evil" CCP came into Tibet and drove Da Lama out to
India), if the world had deemed it a worthy nation. But Tibet never
made it!
By contrast, both Koreas (N. Korea and S. Korea) have been members of
the UN for decades.
So now I can see that you are posting just to create distraction from
the messages that speak unfavorably of the lama-agenda for Tibet - no
matter how valid the messages themselves are. Way to go Jigme, you've
just shown people how supporters of the lama-agenda have no integrity.
lo yeeOn
Let the lama politics be eternally buried:
Tibetans don't want repatriation of Dalai Lama: Chinese Vice Minister
Cui
SUBODH GAUTAM
http://www.myrepublica.com/portal/index.php?action=news_details&news_id=54605
Let the lama politics be eternally buried:
Tibetans don't want repatriation of Dalai Lama: Chinese Vice Minister
Cui
SUBODH GAUTAM
--------------------------------
My original follow-up to Terpstra's "10 Unsettling reasons...":
Subject: Lies, not Reasons! Re: 10 Unsettling Reasons You Should Care
My original follow-up to Terpstra's "10 Unsettling reasons...":
About...
In article <2815411.nDygROTQN9@Dharma>,
Peter Terpstra <peter.t...@gmail.com> wrote:
>10 Unsettling Reasons You Should Care About What's Happening In Tibet !
>
>Michael Kelley
>
>Tibet, a plateau 13,000 feet above sea level that sits between China and
>India, remained largely isolated for centuries. It had
>its own national flag, currency, culture and religion within a
>population of nomads, farmers, monks and traders dispersed over
>territory about the size of Western Europe.
>10 Unsettling Reasons You Should Care About What's Happening In Tibet !
>
>Michael Kelley
>
>Tibet, a plateau 13,000 feet above sea level that sits between China and
>India, remained largely isolated for centuries. It had
>its own national flag, currency, culture and religion within a
>population of nomads, farmers, monks and traders dispersed over
>territory about the size of Western Europe.
Tibet has been on the map as part of China since the Qing Dynasty,
which was founded in the year 1644. If the theocratic feudal society
controlled by the lamas and "nobles" had only a small army as Michael
Kelley said in the next paragraph, then the size of "Western Europe"
is not a land that could be defended. And indeed, Tibet has always
been only a part of China, nothing more!
If Tibet were ever a sovereign country, it would have been a member of
controlled by the lamas and "nobles" had only a small army as Michael
Kelley said in the next paragraph, then the size of "Western Europe"
is not a land that could be defended. And indeed, Tibet has always
been only a part of China, nothing more!
the United Nations in 1945 when the world body was founded - a full
four years before the communists seized power. But Tibet has never
been recognized by any country as a country.
Da Lama was a tool for the lamas and "nobles" who ruled feudal Tibet
and since he fled Tibet, Da Lama became a tool for the West to stir up
troubles in Tibet for the purpose of destabilizing China. Da Lama has
always existed for nothing except serving as the tools of his wealthy
paymasters.
>
>In October 1950 "following the foundation of the People's Republic of
>China in October 1949" the People's Liberation Army entered Tibet and
>overwhelmed its tiny army. The Chinese government began asserting its
>claim that Tibet was part of Chinese territory and that its people
>were crying out for liberation from imperialist forces and the
>government in Lhasa.
Read the Wikipedia, the Chinese governemnt did not begin to assert its
claim over Tibet only after the PRC was founded.
Again, if Tibet was ever a sovereign country, it would have been a
member of the United Nations in 1945 when the world body was founded -
a full four years before the communists seized power. But Tibet has
never been recognized by any country as a country. The reason that
Tibet was not recognized as a country in the UN in 1945 was because
the Nationalist government of China (ROC) insisted that Tibet could
not be admitted. Since China has always been a veto member in the
UNSC, of course Tibet could not simply claim its way into the UN.
four years before the communists seized power. But Tibet has never
been recognized by any country as a country.
Da Lama was a tool for the lamas and "nobles" who ruled feudal Tibet
and since he fled Tibet, Da Lama became a tool for the West to stir up
troubles in Tibet for the purpose of destabilizing China. Da Lama has
always existed for nothing except serving as the tools of his wealthy
paymasters.
>
>In October 1950 "following the foundation of the People's Republic of
>China in October 1949" the People's Liberation Army entered Tibet and
>overwhelmed its tiny army. The Chinese government began asserting its
>claim that Tibet was part of Chinese territory and that its people
>were crying out for liberation from imperialist forces and the
>government in Lhasa.
Read the Wikipedia, the Chinese governemnt did not begin to assert its
claim over Tibet only after the PRC was founded.
Again, if Tibet was ever a sovereign country, it would have been a
member of the United Nations in 1945 when the world body was founded -
a full four years before the communists seized power. But Tibet has
never been recognized by any country as a country. The reason that
Tibet was not recognized as a country in the UN in 1945 was because
the Nationalist government of China (ROC) insisted that Tibet could
not be admitted. Since China has always been a veto member in the
In other words, Tibet has been a part of China for hundreds of years -
in fact since 1644, the year China's Qing Dynasty was founded.
>
>In March 1959 Tibetans rebelled against the occupiers. The uprising
>was crushed and the Tibetan leader, the 14th Dalai Lama, fled to
>India (followed by more than 80,000 Tibetans). Tens of thousands of
>Tibetans who remained were killed or imprisoned.
In fact, according to Heinrich Harrer, Da Lama (Dalai Lama no.14) was
fleeing as early as 1951 when news of the PLA was coming.
Da Lama has always been a coward who is preoccupied with toys and
expensive Swiss clocks and watches and owned a hoard of gold. And in
fact, his mother who was "living in a palace in Lhasa and owning many
large properties across Tibet" had already fled to India when Da Lama
began to flee.
Da Lama stopped only when the Tibetans kept catching up with his
slowly moving south-bound entourage and begging him to stay "because
several decades before in 1912 when Tibet declared independence (like
many other Chinese provinces had done at the time due to the failing
of the Qing Dynasty).
So Da Lama stayed. And in fact, he was invited to Beijing and was
wined and dined by Mao who tried to persuade him to agree to the
communist's universal land reform for China. But it is false to claim
that 1959 was the first time Da Lama fled Tibet. He was a coward and
he fled as early as 1951 when he heard the PLA was coming.
But despite Da Lama's interlocution with Mao and company in Beijing,
he was secretly working with the CIA, mostly through his relatives and
aides, and staged a brief rebellion in 1959 which was defeated in two
short weeks.
The death toll was from the rebellion - which was put down in two
short weeks - not from staying behind. CIA agents who were a part of
the 1959 rebellion have reported that the PLA was very disciplined and
did not kill many of those they had captured earlier.
And of course, the 2008 violent protests in Lhasa and elsewhere were
many other Chinese provinces had done at the time due to the failing
of the Qing Dynasty).
So Da Lama stayed. And in fact, he was invited to Beijing and was
wined and dined by Mao who tried to persuade him to agree to the
communist's universal land reform for China. But it is false to claim
that 1959 was the first time Da Lama fled Tibet. He was a coward and
he fled as early as 1951 when he heard the PLA was coming.
But despite Da Lama's interlocution with Mao and company in Beijing,
he was secretly working with the CIA, mostly through his relatives and
aides, and staged a brief rebellion in 1959 which was defeated in two
short weeks.
The death toll was from the rebellion - which was put down in two
short weeks - not from staying behind. CIA agents who were a part of
the 1959 rebellion have reported that the PLA was very disciplined and
did not kill many of those they had captured earlier.
funded by US money as China was the focus of the world's attention for
hosting the 2008 Summer Olympics.
And of course, the recent self-immolation incidents were desparate
attempts from the outside.
For as long as billions of USD is funded by the US Congress to keep
Tibet a political issue for China, Tibet cannot have peace and all
that is said negatively about China in the name of religious freedom
and human rights in Tibet is just rumor and more rumor of little
credibility. It is a sad story for the Tibetan people because the
West is just using them, instead of really doing something to improve
their well being.
lo yeeOn
Let the lama politics be eternally buried:
Tibetans don't want repatriation of Dalai Lama: Chinese Vice Minister
Cui
SUBODH GAUTAM
http://www.myrepublica.com/portal/index.php?action=news_details&news_id=54605
hosting the 2008 Summer Olympics.
And of course, the recent self-immolation incidents were desparate
attempts from the outside.
For as long as billions of USD is funded by the US Congress to keep
Tibet a political issue for China, Tibet cannot have peace and all
that is said negatively about China in the name of religious freedom
and human rights in Tibet is just rumor and more rumor of little
credibility. It is a sad story for the Tibetan people because the
West is just using them, instead of really doing something to improve
their well being.
lo yeeOn
Let the lama politics be eternally buried:
Tibetans don't want repatriation of Dalai Lama: Chinese Vice Minister
Cui
SUBODH GAUTAM
lo yeeOn
Jun 4, 2013, 5:52:29 PM6/4/13
to
In article <25fe8032-1954-476e...@pd6g2000pbc.googlegroups.com>,
But of course, as Da Lama was fleeing south but remained in that part
of Tibet closest to India, the Tibetan people kept running up to him
and sang the "please don't go, your holiness" song and were able to
convince him that the PLA was not killing people like the last time.
So, Da Lama stuck around for another what? Eight more years to be
exact: 1951-1959 before he finally ran with the CIA and his hoard of
gold!
The lamas never provided a good life for the masses. They exploited
Buddhism and made it into a state religion and misled the people in
order to enslave them for their benefits and the "nobles"'. The lamas
belong to the past and so let them be part of the past. See what Cui
Yuying, a prominent contemporary Tibetan Chinese woman, has to say
about the obsolescence of the Tibetan Lama politics.
Please keep in mind that had the lamas continued to hold sway in
Tibet, instead of the egalitarian influence of the CCP, neither Cui
Yuying nor Tsering Woeser (who is an anti-CCP Tibetan activist living
in Beijing - the Chinese capital) would have a voice, speaking about
the conditions in Tibet from their different perspectives. Tibetan
women would still be in a state in which they "know nothing about
equal rights and are quite happy as they are" (during the years Herr
Heinrich Harrer was in Lhasa: 1944-1951). [See p.159 Dutton English
edition.]
So, let Tibetan feudalism be deeply buried with the past.
--------------------------------
My original follow-up to Terpstra's 10 Unsettling...
Subject: Lies, not Reasons! Re: 10 Unsettling Reasons You Should Care
About...
In article <2815411.nDygROTQN9@Dharma>,
which was founded in the year 1644. If the theocratic feudal society
In other words, Tibet has been a part of China for hundreds of years -
in fact since 1644, the year China's Qing Dynasty was founded.
>
>In March 1959 Tibetans rebelled against the occupiers. The uprising
>was crushed and the Tibetan leader, the 14th Dalai Lama, fled to
>India (followed by more than 80,000 Tibetans). Tens of thousands of
>Tibetans who remained were killed or imprisoned.
In fact, according to Heinrich Harrer, Da Lama (Dalai Lama no.14) was
fleeing as early as 1951 when news of the PLA was coming.
Da Lama has always been a coward who is preoccupied with toys and
expensive Swiss clocks and watches and owned a hoard of gold. And in
fact, his mother who was "living in a palace in Lhasa and owning many
large properties across Tibet" had already fled to India when Da Lama
began to flee.
Da Lama stopped only when the Tibetans kept catching up with his
slowly moving south-bound entourage and begging him to stay "because
the PLA did not come in and slaughter people as the Chinese army did"
The Progressive Voice <thomasw...@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Jun 3, 3:44�am, acous...@panix.com (lo yeeOn) wrote:
>> In article <2815411.nDygROTQN9@Dharma>,
>> Peter Terpstra �<peter.terpst...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >10 Unsettling Reasons You Should Care About What's Happening In Tibet!
>>
>> >Michael Kelley
>>
>> >Tibet, a plateau 13,000 feet above sea level that sits between
>> >China and India, remained largely isolated for centuries. It had
>> >its own national flag, currency, culture and religion within a
>> >population of nomads, farmers, monks and traders dispersed over
>> >territory about the size of Western Europe.
>>
>> Tibet has been in the Chinese map since the Qing Dynasty, which was
>> founded in the year 1644.
>>
>Yah and South Korea was listed on chinese maps during that time as
>sovereign territory. It had to do with the Qing imperial philosophy
>that diplomatically, it was center of the universe. No one is
>claiming South Korea today as part of china. Also the status of Tibet
>under the Qing was like the relationship with the Vatican in Rome
>shared with the Italian state. The Qing Dynasty, like Italy and the
>vatican, were only tasked with the border defense of Tibet.
>Regardless of this fact when the Qing Dynasty fell in 1911 Tibet
>declared independence.
>thomaswheat1975
>> In article <2815411.nDygROTQN9@Dharma>,
>> Peter Terpstra �<peter.terpst...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >10 Unsettling Reasons You Should Care About What's Happening In Tibet!
>>
>> >Michael Kelley
>>
>> >Tibet, a plateau 13,000 feet above sea level that sits between
>> >China and India, remained largely isolated for centuries. It had
>> >its own national flag, currency, culture and religion within a
>> >population of nomads, farmers, monks and traders dispersed over
>> >territory about the size of Western Europe.
>>
>> Tibet has been in the Chinese map since the Qing Dynasty, which was
>> founded in the year 1644.
>>
>Yah and South Korea was listed on chinese maps during that time as
>sovereign territory. It had to do with the Qing imperial philosophy
>that diplomatically, it was center of the universe. No one is
>claiming South Korea today as part of china. Also the status of Tibet
>under the Qing was like the relationship with the Vatican in Rome
>shared with the Italian state. The Qing Dynasty, like Italy and the
>vatican, were only tasked with the border defense of Tibet.
>Regardless of this fact when the Qing Dynasty fell in 1911 Tibet
>declared independence.
>thomaswheat1975
Sorry to see you stooped so low to make such an unsupported argument.
I have pointed out many times that the declaration of independence in
1911 at the fall of the Qing Dynasty means little. In 1911-12, just
about every other province in China had an uprising or declared
independence, including the populous Guangdong province (also the
birthplace of the founding father of the Republic of China: Sun
Yat-Sen). What happened to those provinces, of which Tibet was one,
afterwards? Within a year, all rebellions were vanquished, including
the one in Tibet! In fact, the Dalai Lama no.13 fled to Sikkim, a
province of India at the time. And in fact, Heinrich Harrer, lonely
Da Lama's Austrian personal tutor for several years prior to 1951,
mentioned how the Tibetans reacted at first when they heard that the
CCP was coming!
Harrer observed:
I have pointed out many times that the declaration of independence in
1911 at the fall of the Qing Dynasty means little. In 1911-12, just
about every other province in China had an uprising or declared
independence, including the populous Guangdong province (also the
birthplace of the founding father of the Republic of China: Sun
Yat-Sen). What happened to those provinces, of which Tibet was one,
afterwards? Within a year, all rebellions were vanquished, including
the one in Tibet! In fact, the Dalai Lama no.13 fled to Sikkim, a
province of India at the time. And in fact, Heinrich Harrer, lonely
Da Lama's Austrian personal tutor for several years prior to 1951,
mentioned how the Tibetans reacted at first when they heard that the
CCP was coming!
They were very afraid because they remembered or were told that the
last time the Chinese came (that was in response to Tibet's hasty
declaration of independence), the general was merciless and killed
many Tibetans.
(Actually, the central government of the newly born ROC was unhappy
with the general's treatment of the Tibetans who were considered,
rightly, a Chinese ethnic minority and executed the general. In
addition, it sent a representative to apologize to the Dalai Lama
no.13 who haughtily gave an "I don't give a damn what you think"
reply. It is hilarious, isn't it, as we look back at the modern
history of Tibet? These days, all the lamas-agenda supporters just
resort to lies instead of steeling themselves to face the hard truth
of the lamas' sorry situation in these modern times.)
last time the Chinese came (that was in response to Tibet's hasty
declaration of independence), the general was merciless and killed
many Tibetans.
(Actually, the central government of the newly born ROC was unhappy
with the general's treatment of the Tibetans who were considered,
rightly, a Chinese ethnic minority and executed the general. In
addition, it sent a representative to apologize to the Dalai Lama
no.13 who haughtily gave an "I don't give a damn what you think"
reply. It is hilarious, isn't it, as we look back at the modern
history of Tibet? These days, all the lamas-agenda supporters just
resort to lies instead of steeling themselves to face the hard truth
But of course, as Da Lama was fleeing south but remained in that part
of Tibet closest to India, the Tibetan people kept running up to him
and sang the "please don't go, your holiness" song and were able to
convince him that the PLA was not killing people like the last time.
So, Da Lama stuck around for another what? Eight more years to be
exact: 1951-1959 before he finally ran with the CIA and his hoard of
gold!
The lamas never provided a good life for the masses. They exploited
Buddhism and made it into a state religion and misled the people in
order to enslave them for their benefits and the "nobles"'. The lamas
belong to the past and so let them be part of the past. See what Cui
Yuying, a prominent contemporary Tibetan Chinese woman, has to say
about the obsolescence of the Tibetan Lama politics.
Please keep in mind that had the lamas continued to hold sway in
Tibet, instead of the egalitarian influence of the CCP, neither Cui
Yuying nor Tsering Woeser (who is an anti-CCP Tibetan activist living
in Beijing - the Chinese capital) would have a voice, speaking about
the conditions in Tibet from their different perspectives. Tibetan
women would still be in a state in which they "know nothing about
equal rights and are quite happy as they are" (during the years Herr
Heinrich Harrer was in Lhasa: 1944-1951). [See p.159 Dutton English
edition.]
So, let Tibetan feudalism be deeply buried with the past.
lo yeeOn
Let the lama politics be eternally buried:
Tibetans don't want repatriation of Dalai Lama: Chinese Vice Minister
Cui
SUBODH GAUTAM
http://www.myrepublica.com/portal/index.php?action=news_details&news_id=54605
Let the lama politics be eternally buried:
Tibetans don't want repatriation of Dalai Lama: Chinese Vice Minister
Cui
SUBODH GAUTAM
My original follow-up to Terpstra's 10 Unsettling...
Subject: Lies, not Reasons! Re: 10 Unsettling Reasons You Should Care
About...
In article <2815411.nDygROTQN9@Dharma>,
Peter Terpstra <peter.t...@gmail.com> wrote:
>10 Unsettling Reasons You Should Care About What's Happening In Tibet !
>
>Michael Kelley
>
>Tibet, a plateau 13,000 feet above sea level that sits between China and
>India, remained largely isolated for centuries. It had
>its own national flag, currency, culture and religion within a
>population of nomads, farmers, monks and traders dispersed over
>territory about the size of Western Europe.
Tibet has been on the map as part of China since the Qing Dynasty,
>10 Unsettling Reasons You Should Care About What's Happening In Tibet !
>
>Michael Kelley
>
>Tibet, a plateau 13,000 feet above sea level that sits between China and
>India, remained largely isolated for centuries. It had
>its own national flag, currency, culture and religion within a
>population of nomads, farmers, monks and traders dispersed over
>territory about the size of Western Europe.
which was founded in the year 1644. If the theocratic feudal society
controlled by the lamas and "nobles" had only a small army as Michael
Kelley said in the next paragraph, then the size of "Western Europe"
is not a land that could be defended. And indeed, Tibet has always
been only a part of China, nothing more!
If Tibet were ever a sovereign country, it would have been a member of
Kelley said in the next paragraph, then the size of "Western Europe"
is not a land that could be defended. And indeed, Tibet has always
been only a part of China, nothing more!
the United Nations in 1945 when the world body was founded - a full
four years before the communists seized power. But Tibet has never
been recognized by any country as a country.
Da Lama was a tool for the lamas and "nobles" who ruled feudal Tibet
and since he fled Tibet, Da Lama became a tool for the West to stir up
troubles in Tibet for the purpose of destabilizing China. Da Lama has
always existed for nothing except serving as the tools of his wealthy
paymasters.
>
>In October 1950 "following the foundation of the People's Republic of
>China in October 1949" the People's Liberation Army entered Tibet and
>overwhelmed its tiny army. The Chinese government began asserting its
>claim that Tibet was part of Chinese territory and that its people
>were crying out for liberation from imperialist forces and the
>government in Lhasa.
Read the Wikipedia, the Chinese governemnt did not begin to assert its
claim over Tibet only after the PRC was founded.
Again, if Tibet was ever a sovereign country, it would have been a
member of the United Nations in 1945 when the world body was founded -
a full four years before the communists seized power. But Tibet has
never been recognized by any country as a country. The reason that
Tibet was not recognized as a country in the UN in 1945 was because
the Nationalist government of China (ROC) insisted that Tibet could
not be admitted. Since China has always been a veto member in the
UNSC, of course Tibet could not simply claim its way into the UN.
four years before the communists seized power. But Tibet has never
been recognized by any country as a country.
Da Lama was a tool for the lamas and "nobles" who ruled feudal Tibet
and since he fled Tibet, Da Lama became a tool for the West to stir up
troubles in Tibet for the purpose of destabilizing China. Da Lama has
always existed for nothing except serving as the tools of his wealthy
paymasters.
>
>In October 1950 "following the foundation of the People's Republic of
>China in October 1949" the People's Liberation Army entered Tibet and
>overwhelmed its tiny army. The Chinese government began asserting its
>claim that Tibet was part of Chinese territory and that its people
>were crying out for liberation from imperialist forces and the
>government in Lhasa.
Read the Wikipedia, the Chinese governemnt did not begin to assert its
claim over Tibet only after the PRC was founded.
Again, if Tibet was ever a sovereign country, it would have been a
member of the United Nations in 1945 when the world body was founded -
a full four years before the communists seized power. But Tibet has
never been recognized by any country as a country. The reason that
Tibet was not recognized as a country in the UN in 1945 was because
the Nationalist government of China (ROC) insisted that Tibet could
not be admitted. Since China has always been a veto member in the
In other words, Tibet has been a part of China for hundreds of years -
in fact since 1644, the year China's Qing Dynasty was founded.
>
>In March 1959 Tibetans rebelled against the occupiers. The uprising
>was crushed and the Tibetan leader, the 14th Dalai Lama, fled to
>India (followed by more than 80,000 Tibetans). Tens of thousands of
>Tibetans who remained were killed or imprisoned.
In fact, according to Heinrich Harrer, Da Lama (Dalai Lama no.14) was
fleeing as early as 1951 when news of the PLA was coming.
Da Lama has always been a coward who is preoccupied with toys and
expensive Swiss clocks and watches and owned a hoard of gold. And in
fact, his mother who was "living in a palace in Lhasa and owning many
large properties across Tibet" had already fled to India when Da Lama
began to flee.
Da Lama stopped only when the Tibetans kept catching up with his
slowly moving south-bound entourage and begging him to stay "because
several decades before in 1912 when Tibet declared independence (like
many other Chinese provinces had done at the time due to the failing
of the Qing Dynasty).
So Da Lama stayed. And in fact, he was invited to Beijing and was
wined and dined by Mao who tried to persuade him to agree to the
communist's universal land reform for China. But it is false to claim
that 1959 was the first time Da Lama fled Tibet. He was a coward and
he fled as early as 1951 when he heard the PLA was coming.
But despite Da Lama's interlocution with Mao and company in Beijing,
he was secretly working with the CIA, mostly through his relatives and
aides, and staged a brief rebellion in 1959 which was defeated in two
short weeks.
The death toll was from the rebellion - which was put down in two
short weeks - not from staying behind. CIA agents who were a part of
the 1959 rebellion have reported that the PLA was very disciplined and
did not kill many of those they had captured earlier.
And of course, the 2008 violent protests in Lhasa and elsewhere were
many other Chinese provinces had done at the time due to the failing
of the Qing Dynasty).
So Da Lama stayed. And in fact, he was invited to Beijing and was
wined and dined by Mao who tried to persuade him to agree to the
communist's universal land reform for China. But it is false to claim
that 1959 was the first time Da Lama fled Tibet. He was a coward and
he fled as early as 1951 when he heard the PLA was coming.
But despite Da Lama's interlocution with Mao and company in Beijing,
he was secretly working with the CIA, mostly through his relatives and
aides, and staged a brief rebellion in 1959 which was defeated in two
short weeks.
The death toll was from the rebellion - which was put down in two
short weeks - not from staying behind. CIA agents who were a part of
the 1959 rebellion have reported that the PLA was very disciplined and
did not kill many of those they had captured earlier.
funded by US money as China was the focus of the world's attention for
hosting the 2008 Summer Olympics.
And of course, the recent self-immolation incidents were desparate
attempts from the outside.
For as long as billions of USD is funded by the US Congress to keep
Tibet a political issue for China, Tibet cannot have peace and all
that is said negatively about China in the name of religious freedom
and human rights in Tibet is just rumor and more rumor of little
credibility. It is a sad story for the Tibetan people because the
West is just using them, instead of really doing something to improve
their well being.
lo yeeOn
Let the lama politics be eternally buried:
Tibetans don't want repatriation of Dalai Lama: Chinese Vice Minister
Cui
SUBODH GAUTAM
http://www.myrepublica.com/portal/index.php?action=news_details&news_id=54605
hosting the 2008 Summer Olympics.
And of course, the recent self-immolation incidents were desparate
attempts from the outside.
For as long as billions of USD is funded by the US Congress to keep
Tibet a political issue for China, Tibet cannot have peace and all
that is said negatively about China in the name of religious freedom
and human rights in Tibet is just rumor and more rumor of little
credibility. It is a sad story for the Tibetan people because the
West is just using them, instead of really doing something to improve
their well being.
lo yeeOn
Let the lama politics be eternally buried:
Tibetans don't want repatriation of Dalai Lama: Chinese Vice Minister
Cui
SUBODH GAUTAM
Peter Terpstra
Jun 4, 2013, 6:05:18 PM6/4/13
to
lo yeeOn wrote:
> Tibet has been on the map as part of China since the Qing Dynasty,
> which was founded in the year 1644. If the theocratic feudal society
> controlled by the lamas and "nobles" had only a small army as Michael
> Kelley said in the next paragraph, then the size of "Western Europe"
> is not a land that could be defended. And indeed, Tibet has always
> been only a part of China, nothing more!
You are repeating the CCP version dear friend.
> Tibet has been on the map as part of China since the Qing Dynasty,
> which was founded in the year 1644. If the theocratic feudal society
> controlled by the lamas and "nobles" had only a small army as Michael
> Kelley said in the next paragraph, then the size of "Western Europe"
> is not a land that could be defended. And indeed, Tibet has always
> been only a part of China, nothing more!
With love and dedication, Peter/Neljor
RichAsianKid
Jun 4, 2013, 6:31:37 PM6/4/13
to
up to their reputation to their own - and embrace universal love even in
face of alleged atrocities? That's a failure no? That should be first
question. For history doesn't matter, love of your enemy is love for
all. Tibetans should _embrace_ that first and foremost principle, loving
the Han Chinese, more than anyone else. Don't we, afterall, lead by example?
lo yeeOn
Jun 4, 2013, 6:18:53 PM6/4/13
to
The Syria article is attached below. Read on. But first we need to
take care of the lies and non-sequitur of Tom Jigme Wheat.
In article <fe0309d1-4fbb-41d3...@pd6g2000pbc.googlegroups.com>,
change history. Tibet has been a part of China since the founding of
Qing (1644CE) and all maps of China from Qing on show exactly that.
But more importantly, the lamas belong to the past and their politics
belongs to the past. Tibetans in China today don't need them nor
their politics.
lo yeeOn
Let the lama politics be eternally buried:
Tibetans don't want repatriation of Dalai Lama: Chinese Vice Minister
Cui
SUBODH GAUTAM
http://www.myrepublica.com/portal/index.php?action=news_details&news_id=54605
Syria may be an early test case for dealing with naughty China
War In Syria Highlights Why U.S. Needs Fifth-Gen Fighters
Washington | 6/03/2013 @ 12:43PM |35,092 views
http://www.forbes.com/sites/lorenthompson/2013/06/03/war-in-syria-highlights-why-u-s-needs-fifth-gen-fighters/
The possibility that America and its allies might impose a no-fly zone
over Syria just as they did during previous conflicts in Libya and
Iraq is highlighting the importance of having survivable
fifth-generation fighters in friendly air forces. Right now those
forces consist mainly of older, non-stealthy fighters that Syrian
surface-to-air missiles could shoot down in any battle for control of
local airspace.
Such concerns have been on the backburner at the Pentagon over the
last dozen years as the joint force fought unconventional foes such as
the Taliban that lacked air forces and air defenses. Now, though, the
focus of military planning is shifting to state-based adversaries that
might field so-called integrated air defense networks like China, Iran
and North Korea - with Syria looking like an early test case of
whether U.S. fighters are up to the challenge.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Fighters - supersonic, highly maneuverable tactical aircraft - are the
main weapons used by modern militaries to suppress enemy air defenses
and establish command of the skies. Controlling hostile airspace is
crucial to most other facets of warfighting, as the U.S. demonstrated
in two successive wars against Iraq. But it has been a while since
U.S. fighters faced enemies with state-of-the-art defenses, and the
technology available to defenders has been advancing rapidly.
Worries that U.S. and allied fighters might incur heavy losses in
establishing a no-fly zone were raised last week by reports that Syria
will soon receive Russia's most advanced surface-to-air missile and
radar system, the S-300. The S-300 family of air defense systems has
been around for decades, with the latest versions sporting refinements
designed to counter traditional Western tactics. For example, an
expert at the International Institute for Strategic Studies told Radio
Free Europe last week that he doubted electronic jamming could be used
to defeat the S-300.
It would also be hard to use unmanned aircraft or cruise missiles to
take out the system, because it has been designed to track and target
them even if they are flying close to the ground. Because the S-300
is highly mobile and only takes five minutes to set up, it would
probably have to be taken out by manned aircraft receiving continuous
target updates while conducting search-and-destroy missions. But such
planes would have to be highly survivable, because the S-300 can track
up to 100 targets at the same time from a hundred miles away,
simultaneously targeting a dozen.
Which brings me to the subject of fifth-generation fighters. Over the
years, U.S. fighters have gradually evolved to assimilate new
technologies like smart bombs and digital flight controls that would
keep them useful and survivable in a world of diverse threats. The
latest, fifth generation is defined by advanced stealth features that
make the aircraft very hard to detect; high maneuverability enabled by
new propulsion technology and materials; fusion of on-board sensor
collections; and high-capacity datalinks facilitating comprehensive
situational awareness.
What these features mean when flying into hostile airspace is that
friendly pilots can see the enemy, but the enemy can't see them. The
radar returns and other "signatures" such as heat and radio signals
emitted by fifth-generation fighters are so faint that they typically
can target defenders before their presence has even been detected.
When you combine advanced stealth with the accuracy provided by
precision-guided munitions and awareness afforded by fused sensors and
secure datalinks, you have a prescription for suppressing enemy air
defenses within days.
However, the only operational fifth-gen fighters in the world right
now are 185 or so Air Force F-22s, a Lockheed-Boeing BA +1.74%
airframe equipped with two hyper-capable Pratt & Whitney engines. The
plan is to fill out the Air Force fleet and equip other military
services at home and abroad with the less expensive F-35 fighter, a
Lockheed Martin LMT -0.37%-Northrop Grumman NOC +0.79%-BAE Systems
airframe equipped with one Pratt & Whitney engine evolved from the
F-22 powerplant (I should mention that all of these companies, and
their competitors, give money to my think tank).
The F-35 would deliver fifth-generation survivability and awareness to
the Air Force, Navy and Marine Corps in an affordable package.
Although it lacks some of the maneuverability of the F-22, it is a
newer design than that top-of-the-line fighter, so in some respects
its on-board electronics are more advanced. Problem is, the services
do not expect the plane to be operational until 2015 or later, so if
Syrian air defenses need to be suppressed anytime soon, it's likely to
be fourth-generation planes like Boeing's F-15 and Lockheed's F-16
that do much of the job.
The good news is that it looks like Syria won't take delivery of the
S-300 air defense system from Russia until early next year, and
additional time will be required for local troops to train on it
(although that may have already occurred to some degree by traveling
to Russia). The bad news is that defensive technology of similar
sophistication will start appearing in other unfriendly countries
soon, either because it is exported from Russia or because China has
copied the technology and passed it on to rogue states like North
Korea.
The U.S. military, especially the Navy, has spent decades developing
equipment and tactics that can help fourth-generation fighters deal
with the threat posed by integrated air defenses. For instance, the
Navy's F/A-18 Super Hornet built by Boeing and Northrop Grumman is
equipped with some stealth ("low observable") features, which when
combined with stand-off jamming aircraft and imaginative tactics can
make it reasonably survivable against today's threats. Unfortunately,
there is no way of making an older fighter as survivable as a
fifth-gen aircraft.
The main reason why is that the airframe, on-board electronics and
propulsion system all must be designed from their inception with
survivability in mind to get optimum results, and many of the relevant
technologies simply didn't exist when the older planes were first
conceived. So with scenarios like a Syrian no-fly zone now arising,
Pentagon planners have to think hard about what their fighter
investment strategy should be for the immediate future.
If they keep splitting their fighter buy between the fifth-generation
F-35 and older, less survivable fighters then they run the risk of
filling the force with hundreds of planes that can't cope with
tomorrow's threats. They also undermine the economies of scale made
possible by focusing all fighter investment on a single production
line - a concentration of resources essential to reducing the cost of
each fifth-generation fighter to a point where it is affordable for
all overseas allies.
Some air-power enthusiasts think that the Air Force should have bought
more twin-engine F-22s, but defense secretary Robert Gates ended that
program in 2009 and the cost of revisiting his decision would be very
high - especially if the goal were to buy just a few hundred more of
them. So the practical choice comes down to buying nothing but F-35s,
or continuing to purchase a mixed fleet for a few more years before
production of fourth-generation fighters is due to cease.
In the near-term, the older planes look more affordable because they
are mature aircraft that lack some of the F-35's key features. The
problem is that they will be increasingly challenged by overseas air
defenses in places like Syria that exact a heavy cost in military
engagements. Many planes could be lost, and some pilots too. The
F-35 will cost more for the next few years until production ramps up
and contractors move down the learning curve. But once you factor in
survivability and combat effectiveness, it isn't hard to see why three
U.S. services and a dozen overseas allies are determined to stick with
the F-35 as their future fighter.
--------
Subject: "Tibetan Independence" had no legs to stand on because people
did not take the lamas seriously and the Dalai Lamas looked and acted
like fools during their long tenures Re: Lies, not Reasons! Re: 10
Unsettling Reasons...
In article <25fe8032-1954-476e...@pd6g2000pbc.googlegroups.com>,
My original follow-up to Terpstra's 10 Unsettling...
Subject: Lies, not Reasons! Re: 10 Unsettling Reasons You Should Care
About...
In article <2815411.nDygROTQN9@Dharma>,
take care of the lies and non-sequitur of Tom Jigme Wheat.
In article <fe0309d1-4fbb-41d3...@pd6g2000pbc.googlegroups.com>,
The Progressive Voice <thomasw...@gmail.com> wrote:
>I see I have struck a nerve with you.
>
>Tibet was not sovereign territory of the Qing Dynasty. The Qing sent
>troops to Tibet at the request of the dalai lama to drive out the
>mongols and Gurkkas. Tibet had its own written set of laws and payed
>no taxes to the Qing crown. The dalai lama also became the chief
>confessor for the Qing emperor Kang xi and and Tibet enjoyed Suzerain
>status with the Qing only responsible for border defense. Tibet was
>like the Vatican for Qing dynasty china. The only reason Tibet was not
>recognized as a state by the UN was because the US dominated the UN at
>the time and was allied with the KMT and the Nationalists were making
>claims on Tibet at that time, which later they rescinded.
>
>The fact remains the CCP was a foreign occupying force in Tibet and do
>not hold the will of the Tibetan people.
You can lie to the end of time if you want, but you're not going to
>
>Tibet was not sovereign territory of the Qing Dynasty. The Qing sent
>troops to Tibet at the request of the dalai lama to drive out the
>mongols and Gurkkas. Tibet had its own written set of laws and payed
>no taxes to the Qing crown. The dalai lama also became the chief
>confessor for the Qing emperor Kang xi and and Tibet enjoyed Suzerain
>status with the Qing only responsible for border defense. Tibet was
>like the Vatican for Qing dynasty china. The only reason Tibet was not
>recognized as a state by the UN was because the US dominated the UN at
>the time and was allied with the KMT and the Nationalists were making
>claims on Tibet at that time, which later they rescinded.
>
>The fact remains the CCP was a foreign occupying force in Tibet and do
>not hold the will of the Tibetan people.
change history. Tibet has been a part of China since the founding of
Qing (1644CE) and all maps of China from Qing on show exactly that.
But more importantly, the lamas belong to the past and their politics
belongs to the past. Tibetans in China today don't need them nor
their politics.
lo yeeOn
Let the lama politics be eternally buried:
Tibetans don't want repatriation of Dalai Lama: Chinese Vice Minister
Cui
SUBODH GAUTAM
War In Syria Highlights Why U.S. Needs Fifth-Gen Fighters
Washington | 6/03/2013 @ 12:43PM |35,092 views
http://www.forbes.com/sites/lorenthompson/2013/06/03/war-in-syria-highlights-why-u-s-needs-fifth-gen-fighters/
The possibility that America and its allies might impose a no-fly zone
over Syria just as they did during previous conflicts in Libya and
Iraq is highlighting the importance of having survivable
fifth-generation fighters in friendly air forces. Right now those
forces consist mainly of older, non-stealthy fighters that Syrian
surface-to-air missiles could shoot down in any battle for control of
local airspace.
Such concerns have been on the backburner at the Pentagon over the
last dozen years as the joint force fought unconventional foes such as
the Taliban that lacked air forces and air defenses. Now, though, the
focus of military planning is shifting to state-based adversaries that
might field so-called integrated air defense networks like China, Iran
and North Korea - with Syria looking like an early test case of
whether U.S. fighters are up to the challenge.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Fighters - supersonic, highly maneuverable tactical aircraft - are the
main weapons used by modern militaries to suppress enemy air defenses
and establish command of the skies. Controlling hostile airspace is
crucial to most other facets of warfighting, as the U.S. demonstrated
in two successive wars against Iraq. But it has been a while since
U.S. fighters faced enemies with state-of-the-art defenses, and the
technology available to defenders has been advancing rapidly.
Worries that U.S. and allied fighters might incur heavy losses in
establishing a no-fly zone were raised last week by reports that Syria
will soon receive Russia's most advanced surface-to-air missile and
radar system, the S-300. The S-300 family of air defense systems has
been around for decades, with the latest versions sporting refinements
designed to counter traditional Western tactics. For example, an
expert at the International Institute for Strategic Studies told Radio
Free Europe last week that he doubted electronic jamming could be used
to defeat the S-300.
It would also be hard to use unmanned aircraft or cruise missiles to
take out the system, because it has been designed to track and target
them even if they are flying close to the ground. Because the S-300
is highly mobile and only takes five minutes to set up, it would
probably have to be taken out by manned aircraft receiving continuous
target updates while conducting search-and-destroy missions. But such
planes would have to be highly survivable, because the S-300 can track
up to 100 targets at the same time from a hundred miles away,
simultaneously targeting a dozen.
Which brings me to the subject of fifth-generation fighters. Over the
years, U.S. fighters have gradually evolved to assimilate new
technologies like smart bombs and digital flight controls that would
keep them useful and survivable in a world of diverse threats. The
latest, fifth generation is defined by advanced stealth features that
make the aircraft very hard to detect; high maneuverability enabled by
new propulsion technology and materials; fusion of on-board sensor
collections; and high-capacity datalinks facilitating comprehensive
situational awareness.
What these features mean when flying into hostile airspace is that
friendly pilots can see the enemy, but the enemy can't see them. The
radar returns and other "signatures" such as heat and radio signals
emitted by fifth-generation fighters are so faint that they typically
can target defenders before their presence has even been detected.
When you combine advanced stealth with the accuracy provided by
precision-guided munitions and awareness afforded by fused sensors and
secure datalinks, you have a prescription for suppressing enemy air
defenses within days.
However, the only operational fifth-gen fighters in the world right
now are 185 or so Air Force F-22s, a Lockheed-Boeing BA +1.74%
airframe equipped with two hyper-capable Pratt & Whitney engines. The
plan is to fill out the Air Force fleet and equip other military
services at home and abroad with the less expensive F-35 fighter, a
Lockheed Martin LMT -0.37%-Northrop Grumman NOC +0.79%-BAE Systems
airframe equipped with one Pratt & Whitney engine evolved from the
F-22 powerplant (I should mention that all of these companies, and
their competitors, give money to my think tank).
The F-35 would deliver fifth-generation survivability and awareness to
the Air Force, Navy and Marine Corps in an affordable package.
Although it lacks some of the maneuverability of the F-22, it is a
newer design than that top-of-the-line fighter, so in some respects
its on-board electronics are more advanced. Problem is, the services
do not expect the plane to be operational until 2015 or later, so if
Syrian air defenses need to be suppressed anytime soon, it's likely to
be fourth-generation planes like Boeing's F-15 and Lockheed's F-16
that do much of the job.
The good news is that it looks like Syria won't take delivery of the
S-300 air defense system from Russia until early next year, and
additional time will be required for local troops to train on it
(although that may have already occurred to some degree by traveling
to Russia). The bad news is that defensive technology of similar
sophistication will start appearing in other unfriendly countries
soon, either because it is exported from Russia or because China has
copied the technology and passed it on to rogue states like North
Korea.
The U.S. military, especially the Navy, has spent decades developing
equipment and tactics that can help fourth-generation fighters deal
with the threat posed by integrated air defenses. For instance, the
Navy's F/A-18 Super Hornet built by Boeing and Northrop Grumman is
equipped with some stealth ("low observable") features, which when
combined with stand-off jamming aircraft and imaginative tactics can
make it reasonably survivable against today's threats. Unfortunately,
there is no way of making an older fighter as survivable as a
fifth-gen aircraft.
The main reason why is that the airframe, on-board electronics and
propulsion system all must be designed from their inception with
survivability in mind to get optimum results, and many of the relevant
technologies simply didn't exist when the older planes were first
conceived. So with scenarios like a Syrian no-fly zone now arising,
Pentagon planners have to think hard about what their fighter
investment strategy should be for the immediate future.
If they keep splitting their fighter buy between the fifth-generation
F-35 and older, less survivable fighters then they run the risk of
filling the force with hundreds of planes that can't cope with
tomorrow's threats. They also undermine the economies of scale made
possible by focusing all fighter investment on a single production
line - a concentration of resources essential to reducing the cost of
each fifth-generation fighter to a point where it is affordable for
all overseas allies.
Some air-power enthusiasts think that the Air Force should have bought
more twin-engine F-22s, but defense secretary Robert Gates ended that
program in 2009 and the cost of revisiting his decision would be very
high - especially if the goal were to buy just a few hundred more of
them. So the practical choice comes down to buying nothing but F-35s,
or continuing to purchase a mixed fleet for a few more years before
production of fourth-generation fighters is due to cease.
In the near-term, the older planes look more affordable because they
are mature aircraft that lack some of the F-35's key features. The
problem is that they will be increasingly challenged by overseas air
defenses in places like Syria that exact a heavy cost in military
engagements. Many planes could be lost, and some pilots too. The
F-35 will cost more for the next few years until production ramps up
and contractors move down the learning curve. But once you factor in
survivability and combat effectiveness, it isn't hard to see why three
U.S. services and a dozen overseas allies are determined to stick with
the F-35 as their future fighter.
--------
Subject: "Tibetan Independence" had no legs to stand on because people
did not take the lamas seriously and the Dalai Lamas looked and acted
like fools during their long tenures Re: Lies, not Reasons! Re: 10
Unsettling Reasons...
In article <25fe8032-1954-476e...@pd6g2000pbc.googlegroups.com>,
The Progressive Voice <thomasw...@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Jun 3, 3:44�am, acous...@panix.com (lo yeeOn) wrote:
>> In article <2815411.nDygROTQN9@Dharma>,
>> Peter Terpstra �<peter.terpst...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >10 Unsettling Reasons You Should Care About What's Happening In Tibet!
>>
>> >Michael Kelley
>>
>> >Tibet, a plateau 13,000 feet above sea level that sits between
>> >China and India, remained largely isolated for centuries. It had
>> >its own national flag, currency, culture and religion within a
>> >population of nomads, farmers, monks and traders dispersed over
>> >territory about the size of Western Europe.
>>
>> Tibet has been in the Chinese map since the Qing Dynasty, which was
>On Jun 3, 3:44�am, acous...@panix.com (lo yeeOn) wrote:
>> In article <2815411.nDygROTQN9@Dharma>,
>> Peter Terpstra �<peter.terpst...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >10 Unsettling Reasons You Should Care About What's Happening In Tibet!
>>
>> >Michael Kelley
>>
>> >Tibet, a plateau 13,000 feet above sea level that sits between
>> >China and India, remained largely isolated for centuries. It had
>> >its own national flag, currency, culture and religion within a
>> >population of nomads, farmers, monks and traders dispersed over
>> >territory about the size of Western Europe.
>>
>> founded in the year 1644.
>>
>Yah and South Korea was listed on chinese maps during that time as
>>
>sovereign territory. It had to do with the Qing imperial philosophy
>that diplomatically, it was center of the universe. No one is
>claiming South Korea today as part of china. Also the status of Tibet
>under the Qing was like the relationship with the Vatican in Rome
>shared with the Italian state. The Qing Dynasty, like Italy and the
>vatican, were only tasked with the border defense of Tibet.
>Regardless of this fact when the Qing Dynasty fell in 1911 Tibet
>declared independence.
>thomaswheat1975
>under the Qing was like the relationship with the Vatican in Rome
>shared with the Italian state. The Qing Dynasty, like Italy and the
>vatican, were only tasked with the border defense of Tibet.
>Regardless of this fact when the Qing Dynasty fell in 1911 Tibet
>declared independence.
>thomaswheat1975
lo yeeOn
Let the lama politics be eternally buried:
Tibetans don't want repatriation of Dalai Lama: Chinese Vice Minister
Cui
SUBODH GAUTAM
http://www.myrepublica.com/portal/index.php?action=news_details&news_id=54605
Let the lama politics be eternally buried:
Tibetans don't want repatriation of Dalai Lama: Chinese Vice Minister
Cui
SUBODH GAUTAM
Subject: Lies, not Reasons! Re: 10 Unsettling Reasons You Should Care
About...
In article <2815411.nDygROTQN9@Dharma>,
that 1959 was the first time Da Lama fled Tibet. He was a coward and
he fled as early as 1951 when he heard the PLA was coming.
But despite Da Lama's interlocution with Mao and company in Beijing,
he was secretly working with the CIA, mostly through his relatives and
aides, and staged a brief rebellion in 1959 which was defeated in two
short weeks.
The death toll was from the rebellion - which was put down in two
short weeks - not from staying behind. CIA agents who were a part of
the 1959 rebellion have reported that the PLA was very disciplined and
did not kill many of those they had captured earlier.
And of course, the 2008 violent protests in Lhasa and elsewhere were
funded by US money as China was the focus of the world's attention for
hosting the 2008 Summer Olympics.
And of course, the recent self-immolation incidents were desparate
attempts from the outside.
For as long as billions of USD is funded by the US Congress to keep
Tibet a political issue for China, Tibet cannot have peace and all
that is said negatively about China in the name of religious freedom
and human rights in Tibet is just rumor and more rumor of little
credibility. It is a sad story for the Tibetan people because the
West is just using them, instead of really doing something to improve
their well being.
he fled as early as 1951 when he heard the PLA was coming.
But despite Da Lama's interlocution with Mao and company in Beijing,
he was secretly working with the CIA, mostly through his relatives and
aides, and staged a brief rebellion in 1959 which was defeated in two
short weeks.
The death toll was from the rebellion - which was put down in two
short weeks - not from staying behind. CIA agents who were a part of
the 1959 rebellion have reported that the PLA was very disciplined and
did not kill many of those they had captured earlier.
And of course, the 2008 violent protests in Lhasa and elsewhere were
funded by US money as China was the focus of the world's attention for
hosting the 2008 Summer Olympics.
And of course, the recent self-immolation incidents were desparate
attempts from the outside.
For as long as billions of USD is funded by the US Congress to keep
Tibet a political issue for China, Tibet cannot have peace and all
that is said negatively about China in the name of religious freedom
and human rights in Tibet is just rumor and more rumor of little
credibility. It is a sad story for the Tibetan people because the
West is just using them, instead of really doing something to improve
their well being.
lo yeeOn
Let the lama politics be eternally buried:
Tibetans don't want repatriation of Dalai Lama: Chinese Vice Minister
Cui
SUBODH GAUTAM
http://www.myrepublica.com/portal/index.php?action=news_details&news_id=54605
Let the lama politics be eternally buried:
Tibetans don't want repatriation of Dalai Lama: Chinese Vice Minister
Cui
SUBODH GAUTAM
the E V I L Prophet Muhammud fucked teenage gril 's cunt , was a DIRTY Human Scum
Jun 4, 2013, 6:35:14 PM6/4/13
to
German Nazi Alpine team before WW-II knew Tibet was an
Independent nation state
On Jun 4, 11:44 pm, "OLD CHINK LEE KUAN YEW , a HaKKa migrant"
> ...
>
> read more »
Independent nation state
On Jun 4, 11:44 pm, "OLD CHINK LEE KUAN YEW , a HaKKa migrant"
>
> read more »
the E V I L Prophet Muhammud fucked teenage gril 's cunt , was a DIRTY Human Scum
Jun 4, 2013, 6:38:11 PM6/4/13
to
Chinese are always falsifying their own Chinese history
Chinese even claimed Goguryeo in North Manchuria was Chinese
history
the Fucking Chinks are always lying
On Jun 5, 5:18 am, acous...@panix.com (lo yeeOn) wrote:
> The Syria article is attached below. Read on. But first we need to
> take care of the lies and non-sequitur of Tom Jigme Wheat.
>
> In article <fe0309d1-4fbb-41d3-846d-7b738398b...@pd6g2000pbc.googlegroups.com>,
> http://www.myrepublica.com/portal/index.php?action=news_details&news_...
> http://www.forbes.com/sites/lorenthompson/2013/06/03/war-in-syria-hig...
> Syrian air ...
>
> read more »
Chinese even claimed Goguryeo in North Manchuria was Chinese
history
the Fucking Chinks are always lying
On Jun 5, 5:18 am, acous...@panix.com (lo yeeOn) wrote:
> The Syria article is attached below. Read on. But first we need to
> take care of the lies and non-sequitur of Tom Jigme Wheat.
>
>
> read more »
lo yeeOn
Jun 5, 2013, 1:41:27 AM6/5/13
to
In article <af9b6cbe-58e4-495d...@jr6g2000pbb.googlegroups.com>,
not exist.
>Tibet was not sovereign territory of the Qing Dynasty. The Qing sent
>troops to Tibet at the request of the dalai lama to drive out the
>mongols and Gurkkas. Tibet had its own written set of laws and payed
>no taxes to the Qing crown. The dalai lama also became the chief
>confessor for the Qing emperor Kang xi and and Tibet enjoyed Suzerain
>status with the Qing only responsible for border defense. Tibet was
>like the Vatican for Qing dynasty china. The only reason Tibet was
>not recognized as a state by the UN was because the US dominated the
>UN at the time and was allied with the KMT and the Nationalists were
>making claims on Tibet at that time, which later they rescinded. The
>fact remains the CCP was a foreign occupying force in Tibet and do
>not hold the will of the Tibetan people.
A cocker spaniel story! Too bad that the dalai lama himself didn't
have a confessor to absolve his sins. His treacherous alliance with
the Chink/Qing aristocrats against the mongols and Gurkkas must have
caused Genghis Khan to turn in his grave and yell to high heaven:
What? I protected them like bros - against the chinks - and now...
now they are consorting with them against my grandchildren? May
these monks be condemned to be eaten by vermin without honor,
without the support of even their own people...
So, as karma would have it, the Qing emperors made Tibet a part of
China and made sure the court-approved map of China showed it.
And so, the Nationalists did the same. And apparently, the heavens'
compassion was so strong for Genghis Khan's grandchildren that it
moved the People's Republic of China to abandon tradition and let go
of Mongolia. When Mao quietly inquired about what Heaven might want
him to do with Tibet - on the solemnest eve of October 1, 1949 - the
heavens showed ambivalence and just shrugged slightly. For a moment,
Mao was at a loss for he hasn't prayed to God since he joined the CCP.
But then he suddenly remembered something. While the Mongols remain
nomads - a free people, the Tibetan monks continued to run a feudal
serfdom. That's it, Mao snapped his fingers. I know what to do:
"What must be done will be done! I must carry my Tibetan brothers
out of serfdom, even if I have to carry them on my shoulders, even
if I have to swim across the rapid streams of Sichuan."
Of course the rest is history - the monks lost and the Tibetans won
their freedom.
Remember that when the West talk about the resentment of the Tibetans
against the Chinese government, the reality is that there are two
camps: a) the monks and their external links who were landowners,
"nobles", the son of a former king who was personally "crowned" by Da
Lama himself six or seven years ago, and lamas in exile on one side;
and b) the Tibetan people who constitute the 92% of the people, many
of whom were former serfs.
While the self-immolation incidents are drying up because the external
elements are meeting a lot of obstacles to continue to make their
mischief of burning innocent children alive, the 92% of the millions
of Tibetans in China minus 118 lambs of Da Lama's sacrifice want to
live. And they realize that going with their Chinese brothers and
sisters are the best foot forward.
lo yeeOn
Let the lama politics be eternally buried:
Tibetans don't want repatriation of Dalai Lama: Chinese Vice Minister
Cui
SUBODH GAUTAM
http://www.myrepublica.com/portal/index.php?action=news_details&news_id=54605
Tom Jigme Wheat <thomasw...@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Jun 4, 12:14 pm, The Progressive Voice <thomaswheat1...@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>> I see I have struck a nerve with you.
>
You haven't, although I can believe that you see many things that do
>On Jun 4, 12:14 pm, The Progressive Voice <thomaswheat1...@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>> I see I have struck a nerve with you.
>
not exist.
>Tibet was not sovereign territory of the Qing Dynasty. The Qing sent
>troops to Tibet at the request of the dalai lama to drive out the
>mongols and Gurkkas. Tibet had its own written set of laws and payed
>no taxes to the Qing crown. The dalai lama also became the chief
>confessor for the Qing emperor Kang xi and and Tibet enjoyed Suzerain
>status with the Qing only responsible for border defense. Tibet was
>like the Vatican for Qing dynasty china. The only reason Tibet was
>not recognized as a state by the UN was because the US dominated the
>UN at the time and was allied with the KMT and the Nationalists were
>making claims on Tibet at that time, which later they rescinded. The
>fact remains the CCP was a foreign occupying force in Tibet and do
>not hold the will of the Tibetan people.
have a confessor to absolve his sins. His treacherous alliance with
the Chink/Qing aristocrats against the mongols and Gurkkas must have
caused Genghis Khan to turn in his grave and yell to high heaven:
What? I protected them like bros - against the chinks - and now...
now they are consorting with them against my grandchildren? May
these monks be condemned to be eaten by vermin without honor,
without the support of even their own people...
So, as karma would have it, the Qing emperors made Tibet a part of
China and made sure the court-approved map of China showed it.
And so, the Nationalists did the same. And apparently, the heavens'
compassion was so strong for Genghis Khan's grandchildren that it
moved the People's Republic of China to abandon tradition and let go
of Mongolia. When Mao quietly inquired about what Heaven might want
him to do with Tibet - on the solemnest eve of October 1, 1949 - the
heavens showed ambivalence and just shrugged slightly. For a moment,
Mao was at a loss for he hasn't prayed to God since he joined the CCP.
But then he suddenly remembered something. While the Mongols remain
nomads - a free people, the Tibetan monks continued to run a feudal
serfdom. That's it, Mao snapped his fingers. I know what to do:
"What must be done will be done! I must carry my Tibetan brothers
out of serfdom, even if I have to carry them on my shoulders, even
if I have to swim across the rapid streams of Sichuan."
Of course the rest is history - the monks lost and the Tibetans won
their freedom.
Remember that when the West talk about the resentment of the Tibetans
against the Chinese government, the reality is that there are two
camps: a) the monks and their external links who were landowners,
"nobles", the son of a former king who was personally "crowned" by Da
Lama himself six or seven years ago, and lamas in exile on one side;
and b) the Tibetan people who constitute the 92% of the people, many
of whom were former serfs.
While the self-immolation incidents are drying up because the external
elements are meeting a lot of obstacles to continue to make their
mischief of burning innocent children alive, the 92% of the millions
of Tibetans in China minus 118 lambs of Da Lama's sacrifice want to
live. And they realize that going with their Chinese brothers and
sisters are the best foot forward.
lo yeeOn
Let the lama politics be eternally buried:
Tibetans don't want repatriation of Dalai Lama: Chinese Vice Minister
Cui
SUBODH GAUTAM
lo yeeOn
Jun 5, 2013, 2:12:25 AM6/5/13
to
In article <6388922.aaPu3L7sJt@Dharma>,
If the CCP version agrees with history, then the CCP naturally has a
whole lot of credability.
Tell me, why did Da Lama choose to crown a 12 year old as king of
Tibet six years ago? I remember that Da Lama supporters tend to
excuse his youthful indulgence while he was still the god-king in
Lhasa as that of a child. And these same supporters have also been
saying that Tibetan feudalism won't return, i.e., if Tibet achieved
independence, it would be a democracy. So how will Da Lama's crowning
of the chap from the Dead Poets school of privileges six years ago
square with the realization of a democratic Tibet? And what does it
say about Da Lama's thinking? Is he really for democracy? OR is he
just mouthing the word just for fund raising purposes in the West?
lo yeeOn
1) Da Lama crowned his king:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2332983/Lhagyari-Trichen-Namgyal-Wangchuk-Last-King-Tibet-graduates-US-boarding-school-Dead-Poets-Society-mentored-Dalai-Lama.html
2) On the other hand, please take note that the majority of Tibetans
in China do not want Da Lama back:
3) My original follow up to M. Kelley article:
Subject: Lies, not Reasons! Re: 10 Unsettling Reasons You Should Care About...
In article <2815411.nDygROTQN9@Dharma>,
Peter Terpstra <peter.t...@gmail.com> wrote:
>10 Unsettling Reasons You Should Care About What's Happening In Tibet !
>
>Michael Kelley
>
>Tibet, a plateau 13,000 feet above sea level that sits between China and
>India, remained largely isolated for centuries. It had
>its own national flag, currency, culture and religion within a
>population of nomads, farmers, monks and traders dispersed over
>territory about the size of Western Europe.
whole lot of credability.
Tell me, why did Da Lama choose to crown a 12 year old as king of
Tibet six years ago? I remember that Da Lama supporters tend to
excuse his youthful indulgence while he was still the god-king in
Lhasa as that of a child. And these same supporters have also been
saying that Tibetan feudalism won't return, i.e., if Tibet achieved
independence, it would be a democracy. So how will Da Lama's crowning
of the chap from the Dead Poets school of privileges six years ago
square with the realization of a democratic Tibet? And what does it
say about Da Lama's thinking? Is he really for democracy? OR is he
just mouthing the word just for fund raising purposes in the West?
lo yeeOn
1) Da Lama crowned his king:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2332983/Lhagyari-Trichen-Namgyal-Wangchuk-Last-King-Tibet-graduates-US-boarding-school-Dead-Poets-Society-mentored-Dalai-Lama.html
2) On the other hand, please take note that the majority of Tibetans
in China do not want Da Lama back:
Subject: Lies, not Reasons! Re: 10 Unsettling Reasons You Should Care About...
In article <2815411.nDygROTQN9@Dharma>,
Peter Terpstra <peter.t...@gmail.com> wrote:
>10 Unsettling Reasons You Should Care About What's Happening In Tibet !
>
>Michael Kelley
>
>Tibet, a plateau 13,000 feet above sea level that sits between China and
>India, remained largely isolated for centuries. It had
>its own national flag, currency, culture and religion within a
>population of nomads, farmers, monks and traders dispersed over
>territory about the size of Western Europe.
Tibet has been on the map as part of China since the Qing Dynasty,
which was founded in the year 1644. If the theocratic feudal society
controlled by the lamas and "nobles" had only a small army as Michael
Kelley said in the next paragraph, then the size of "Western Europe"
is not a land that could be defended. And indeed, Tibet has always
been only a part of China, nothing more!
If Tibet were ever a sovereign country, it would have been a member of
which was founded in the year 1644. If the theocratic feudal society
controlled by the lamas and "nobles" had only a small army as Michael
Kelley said in the next paragraph, then the size of "Western Europe"
is not a land that could be defended. And indeed, Tibet has always
been only a part of China, nothing more!
Peter Terpstra
Jun 5, 2013, 4:12:59 AM6/5/13
to
lo yeeOn wrote:
> What would Genghis Khan do if he saw from the high heaven that Da Lama had
> conspired to drive out his grandchildren?
He would have said something like "Free Tibet from the Brutal Communist Occupation"!!!
Yes believe he would have said that, he was a truthful man and still loved today, a Hero for the Mongols,
(which is partly also occupied by China.)
With Love, Peter
> What would Genghis Khan do if he saw from the high heaven that Da Lama had
> conspired to drive out his grandchildren?
He would have said something like "Free Tibet from the Brutal Communist Occupation"!!!
Yes believe he would have said that, he was a truthful man and still loved today, a Hero for the Mongols,
(which is partly also occupied by China.)
With Love, Peter
~
Jun 5, 2013, 5:21:47 AM6/5/13
to
I am sure , he would ask the Dalai Lama to start counting
the days, hours,minutes,seconds when he meet
Buddha to explain why he encourage his supporters
to kill themselves.
You can only go to your dessert god's hell
to repent why you have not follow his way.
"Peter Terpstra" <peter.t...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1457785.OF5tHO7jEM@Dharma...
--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ne...@netfront.net ---
the days, hours,minutes,seconds when he meet
Buddha to explain why he encourage his supporters
to kill themselves.
You can only go to your dessert god's hell
to repent why you have not follow his way.
"Peter Terpstra" <peter.t...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1457785.OF5tHO7jEM@Dharma...
Peter Terpstra
Jun 5, 2013, 6:50:49 AM6/5/13
to
~ wrote:
> I am sure , he would ask the Dalai Lama to start counting
> the days, hours,minutes,seconds when he meet
> Buddha to explain why he encourage his supporters
> to kill themselves.
>
> You can only go to your dessert god's hell
> to repent why you have not follow his way.
You should now where such Evil propaganda comes from, it has no real facts at all.
> I am sure , he would ask the Dalai Lama to start counting
> the days, hours,minutes,seconds when he meet
> Buddha to explain why he encourage his supporters
> to kill themselves.
>
> You can only go to your dessert god's hell
> to repent why you have not follow his way.
Just political propaganda that harms the relations with Tibet and China and the
rest of the world. It is truly bad. It makes the heart cry to listen to the deep
ignorance that you people have fallen into.
Politics are lies anyway and some politics are even worse.
Have a deep wish that wisdom in China will arise and you too.
May you find Peace and Happiness dear friend, you need that so much!
Love, Peter
~
Jun 5, 2013, 7:27:55 AM6/5/13
to
Your heart is the amount of om money money om
that CIA have for you.
I am happy and enjoy peace as I do not
take money to propagate for others.
news:5947212.zzzM6rPLdh@Dharma...
that CIA have for you.
I am happy and enjoy peace as I do not
take money to propagate for others.
news:5947212.zzzM6rPLdh@Dharma...
~
Jun 5, 2013, 7:36:28 AM6/5/13
to
Your heart is the amount of om money money om
that CIA have for you.
I am happy and enjoy peace as I do not
take money to propagate for others.
Om money money om
lo yeeOn
Jun 5, 2013, 5:31:54 PM6/5/13
to
In article <af9b6cbe-58e4-495d...@jr6g2000pbb.googlegroups.com>,
Tom Jigme Wheat <thomasw...@gmail.com> wrote:
Tom Jigme Wheat <thomasw...@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Jun 4, 12:14 pm, The Progressive Voice <thomaswheat1...@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>> I see I have struck a nerve with you.
>
>wrote:
>> I see I have struck a nerve with you.
>
You haven't, although I can believe that you see many things that do
not exist.
not exist.
>Tibet was not sovereign territory of the Qing Dynasty. The Qing sent
>troops to Tibet at the request of the dalai lama to drive out the
>mongols and Gurkkas. Tibet had its own written set of laws and payed
>no taxes to the Qing crown. The dalai lama also became the chief
>confessor for the Qing emperor Kang xi and and Tibet enjoyed Suzerain
>status with the Qing only responsible for border defense. Tibet was
>like the Vatican for Qing dynasty china. The only reason Tibet was
>not recognized as a state by the UN was because the US dominated the
>UN at the time and was allied with the KMT and the Nationalists were
>making claims on Tibet at that time, which later they rescinded. The
>fact remains the CCP was a foreign occupying force in Tibet and do
>not hold the will of the Tibetan people.
>troops to Tibet at the request of the dalai lama to drive out the
>mongols and Gurkkas. Tibet had its own written set of laws and payed
>no taxes to the Qing crown. The dalai lama also became the chief
>confessor for the Qing emperor Kang xi and and Tibet enjoyed Suzerain
>status with the Qing only responsible for border defense. Tibet was
>like the Vatican for Qing dynasty china. The only reason Tibet was
>not recognized as a state by the UN was because the US dominated the
>UN at the time and was allied with the KMT and the Nationalists were
>making claims on Tibet at that time, which later they rescinded. The
>fact remains the CCP was a foreign occupying force in Tibet and do
>not hold the will of the Tibetan people.
A cocker spaniel story! Too bad that the dalai lama himself didn't
have a confessor to absolve his sins. His treacherous alliance with
the Chink/Qing aristocrats against the mongols and Gurkkas must have
caused Genghis Khan to turn in his grave and yell to high heaven:
What? I protected them like bros - against the chinks - and now...
now they are consorting with them against my grandchildren? May
these monks be condemned to be eaten by vermin without honor,
without the support of even their own people...
So, as karma would have it, the Qing emperors made Tibet a part of
China and made sure the court-approved map of China showed it.
And so, the Nationalists did the same. And apparently, the heavens'
compassion was so strong for Genghis Khan's grandchildren that it
moved the People's Republic of China to abandon tradition and let go
of Mongolia.
When Mao quietly inquired about what Heaven might want him to do with
Tibet - on the solemnest eve of October 1, 1949 - the heavens showed
ambivalence and just shrugged slightly. For a moment, Mao was at a
loss for he hadn't prayed to God since he joined the CCP.
have a confessor to absolve his sins. His treacherous alliance with
the Chink/Qing aristocrats against the mongols and Gurkkas must have
caused Genghis Khan to turn in his grave and yell to high heaven:
What? I protected them like bros - against the chinks - and now...
now they are consorting with them against my grandchildren? May
these monks be condemned to be eaten by vermin without honor,
without the support of even their own people...
So, as karma would have it, the Qing emperors made Tibet a part of
China and made sure the court-approved map of China showed it.
And so, the Nationalists did the same. And apparently, the heavens'
compassion was so strong for Genghis Khan's grandchildren that it
moved the People's Republic of China to abandon tradition and let go
of Mongolia.
When Mao quietly inquired about what Heaven might want him to do with
Tibet - on the solemnest eve of October 1, 1949 - the heavens showed
ambivalence and just shrugged slightly. For a moment, Mao was at a
But then he suddenly remembered something: While the Mongols remained
nomads and a free people, the Tibetan monks continued to run a feudal
serfdom (even as the rest of the world had long left it behind).
"That's it," Mao snapped his fingers. "I know what to do:
What must be done will be done! I must carry my Tibetan brothers
out of serfdom, even if I have to carry them on my shoulders, even
if I have to swim across the rapid streams of Sichuan."
Of course the rest is history - the monks lost and the Tibetans won
their freedom.
against the Chinese government, the reality is that there are two
camps: a) the monks and their external links who were landowners,
"nobles", the son of a former king who was personally "crowned" by Da
Lama himself six or seven years ago, and lamas in exile on one side;
and b) the Tibetan people who constitute the 92% of the people, many
of whom were former serfs.
While the self-immolation incidents are drying up because the external
elements are meeting a lot of obstacles to continue to make their
mischief of burning innocent children alive, the 92% of the millions
of Tibetans in China minus 118 lambs of Da Lama's sacrifice want to
live. And they realize that going with their Chinese brothers and
sisters is putting the best foot forward.
camps: a) the monks and their external links who were landowners,
"nobles", the son of a former king who was personally "crowned" by Da
Lama himself six or seven years ago, and lamas in exile on one side;
and b) the Tibetan people who constitute the 92% of the people, many
of whom were former serfs.
While the self-immolation incidents are drying up because the external
elements are meeting a lot of obstacles to continue to make their
mischief of burning innocent children alive, the 92% of the millions
of Tibetans in China minus 118 lambs of Da Lama's sacrifice want to
live. And they realize that going with their Chinese brothers and
lo yeeOn
Let the lama politics be eternally buried:
Tibetans don't want repatriation of Dalai Lama: Chinese Vice Minister
Cui
SUBODH GAUTAM
lo yeeOn
Jun 5, 2013, 6:32:37 PM6/5/13
to
In article <1457785.OF5tHO7jEM@Dharma>,
mistreated! You think the man enjoyed being mistreated, given
something much, much worse than a hundred strokes of flogging?
Tom Jigme Wheat has told us that
>The Qing sent troops to Tibet at the request of the dalai lama to
>drive out the mongols and Gurkkas.
Now that is treachery - as far as the Mongols are concerned!
And you, Peter the lamas-sycophant posted something neurotic for a
misanthrope by the name of Tashi Rabten:
By Tashi Rabten (pen name: Theurang), a Tibetan "writer, poet, ..."
>When tourist vehicles arrive, ruddy-faced Tibetan women and
>snot-nosed Tibetan boys rush into action with their horses.
>Holding their breath, desperation in their eyes, they carry
>Chinese tourists on their horses and walk up the mountains.
>Holding fifty-Yuan notes in their hands, smiles written all
>over their faces, they kill their time waiting for the arrival
>of other tourists. When I see them, I wonder how a race that once
>conquered two-thirds of the world's territory has now been turned
>into a bunch of soul-less slaves serving other people. My dear
>fellow-countrymen, if we cannot paint the bones of our ancestors
>in gold, the least we could do is not to throw their gray hair in
>the wind.
Tashi Rabten complained that the majority of his contemporaries in
Tibet did not behave like "a race that once conquered two-thirds of
the world's territory", that they are a bunch of "soul-less slaves"
whose happy faces apparently disgusted him, and that "if we cannot
paint the bones of our ancestors in gold, the least we could do is not
to throw their gray hair in the wind".
Now if you put Tom Jigme Wheat's cocker spaniel story of intrigue
committed by the lamas, at the rise of the Qing dynasty and your
neurotic poet's regret about the Tibetan monks having lost their
empire a full "two-thirds of the world's territory" now, you know ...
you know that karma is turning against them lamas.
And you know that Genghis Klan was never a masochist and would never
wanted to be flogged. The last thing he would want to see is the
monks whom he had generously helped out before then turned against his
children and grandchildren (when a new power in the Machurian came
along). And Genghis Klan was turning in his grave for nearly 300
years before the Heaven finally granted his great grandchildren a
permanent home called the Mongolian People's Republic.
That's right, the monks are no longer in charge - only the people - in
Mongolia today.
So, why shouldn't the Tibetan people enjoy the same today?
Why shouldn't the majority of the Tibetan people who were serfs under
the lamas before be free and happy today, about which the neurotic
poet Tashi Rabten now bitterly complains about?
Now that's what I would call Genghis Klan's final revenge against the
treacherous lamas.
lo yeeOn
Subject: What would Genghis Khan do if he knew that Da Lama had
conspired to drive out his grandchildren? Tibet is a province of
China still occupied by Tibetan people who just don't want Da Lama to
return!
Peter Terpstra <peter.t...@gmail.com> wrote:
>lo yeeOn wrote:
>
>> What would Genghis Khan do if he saw from the high heaven that Da Lama had
>> conspired to drive out his grandchildren?
>
>He would have said something like "Free Tibet from the Brutal Communist
>Occupation"!!!
Maybe, if Genghis Khan were a masochist - someone who enjoyed being
>lo yeeOn wrote:
>
>> What would Genghis Khan do if he saw from the high heaven that Da Lama had
>> conspired to drive out his grandchildren?
>
>He would have said something like "Free Tibet from the Brutal Communist
>Occupation"!!!
mistreated! You think the man enjoyed being mistreated, given
something much, much worse than a hundred strokes of flogging?
Tom Jigme Wheat has told us that
>The Qing sent troops to Tibet at the request of the dalai lama to
>drive out the mongols and Gurkkas.
And you, Peter the lamas-sycophant posted something neurotic for a
misanthrope by the name of Tashi Rabten:
By Tashi Rabten (pen name: Theurang), a Tibetan "writer, poet, ..."
>When tourist vehicles arrive, ruddy-faced Tibetan women and
>snot-nosed Tibetan boys rush into action with their horses.
>Holding their breath, desperation in their eyes, they carry
>Chinese tourists on their horses and walk up the mountains.
>Holding fifty-Yuan notes in their hands, smiles written all
>over their faces, they kill their time waiting for the arrival
>of other tourists. When I see them, I wonder how a race that once
>conquered two-thirds of the world's territory has now been turned
>into a bunch of soul-less slaves serving other people. My dear
>fellow-countrymen, if we cannot paint the bones of our ancestors
>in gold, the least we could do is not to throw their gray hair in
>the wind.
Tashi Rabten complained that the majority of his contemporaries in
Tibet did not behave like "a race that once conquered two-thirds of
the world's territory", that they are a bunch of "soul-less slaves"
whose happy faces apparently disgusted him, and that "if we cannot
paint the bones of our ancestors in gold, the least we could do is not
to throw their gray hair in the wind".
Now if you put Tom Jigme Wheat's cocker spaniel story of intrigue
committed by the lamas, at the rise of the Qing dynasty and your
neurotic poet's regret about the Tibetan monks having lost their
empire a full "two-thirds of the world's territory" now, you know ...
you know that karma is turning against them lamas.
And you know that Genghis Klan was never a masochist and would never
wanted to be flogged. The last thing he would want to see is the
monks whom he had generously helped out before then turned against his
children and grandchildren (when a new power in the Machurian came
along). And Genghis Klan was turning in his grave for nearly 300
years before the Heaven finally granted his great grandchildren a
permanent home called the Mongolian People's Republic.
That's right, the monks are no longer in charge - only the people - in
Mongolia today.
So, why shouldn't the Tibetan people enjoy the same today?
Why shouldn't the majority of the Tibetan people who were serfs under
the lamas before be free and happy today, about which the neurotic
poet Tashi Rabten now bitterly complains about?
Now that's what I would call Genghis Klan's final revenge against the
treacherous lamas.
lo yeeOn
Subject: What would Genghis Khan do if he knew that Da Lama had
conspired to drive out his grandchildren? Tibet is a province of
China still occupied by Tibetan people who just don't want Da Lama to
return!
loss for he hadn't prayed to God since he joined the CCP.
But then he suddenly remembered something: While the Mongols remained
nomads and a free people, the Tibetan monks continued to run a feudal
serfdom (even as the rest of the world had long left it behind).
But then he suddenly remembered something: While the Mongols remained
nomads and a free people, the Tibetan monks continued to run a feudal
serfdom (even as the rest of the world had long left it behind).
"That's it," Mao snapped his fingers. "I know what to do:
What must be done will be done! I must carry my Tibetan brothers
out of serfdom, even if I have to carry them on my shoulders, even
if I have to swim across the rapid streams of Sichuan."
Of course the rest is history - the monks lost and the Tibetans won
their freedom.
Remember that when the West talks about the resentment of the Tibetans
What must be done will be done! I must carry my Tibetan brothers
out of serfdom, even if I have to carry them on my shoulders, even
if I have to swim across the rapid streams of Sichuan."
Of course the rest is history - the monks lost and the Tibetans won
their freedom.
against the Chinese government, the reality is that there are two
camps: a) the monks and their external links who were landowners,
"nobles", the son of a former king who was personally "crowned" by Da
Lama himself six or seven years ago, and lamas in exile on one side;
and b) the Tibetan people who constitute the 92% of the people, many
of whom were former serfs.
While the self-immolation incidents are drying up because the external
elements are meeting a lot of obstacles to continue to make their
mischief of burning innocent children alive, the 92% of the millions
of Tibetans in China minus 118 lambs of Da Lama's sacrifice want to
live. And they realize that going with their Chinese brothers and
sisters is putting the best foot forward.
camps: a) the monks and their external links who were landowners,
"nobles", the son of a former king who was personally "crowned" by Da
Lama himself six or seven years ago, and lamas in exile on one side;
and b) the Tibetan people who constitute the 92% of the people, many
of whom were former serfs.
While the self-immolation incidents are drying up because the external
elements are meeting a lot of obstacles to continue to make their
mischief of burning innocent children alive, the 92% of the millions
of Tibetans in China minus 118 lambs of Da Lama's sacrifice want to
live. And they realize that going with their Chinese brothers and
1010011110010
Jun 6, 2013, 1:28:40 AM6/6/13
to
every one wants their own piece of home land
Chinks have CHINA
Malays have Malaysia,
Khmer s have Compuchea .
Thai have Thai 's land
Lao have Lao land s
Viets have Vietcuntry
yu see what I mean ?
Chinks have CHINA
Malays have Malaysia,
Khmer s have Compuchea .
Thai have Thai 's land
Lao have Lao land s
Viets have Vietcuntry
yu see what I mean ?
lo yeeOn
Jun 6, 2013, 2:10:57 AM6/6/13
to
>lo yeeOn wrote:
>
>> What would Genghis Khan do if he saw from the high heaven that Da Lama had
>> conspired to drive out his grandchildren?
>
>He would have said something like "Free Tibet from the Brutal Communist
>Occupation"!!!
>
>> What would Genghis Khan do if he saw from the high heaven that Da Lama had
>> conspired to drive out his grandchildren?
>
>He would have said something like "Free Tibet from the Brutal Communist
>Occupation"!!!
Maybe, if Genghis Khan were a masochist - someone who enjoyed being
mistreated! You think the man enjoyed being mistreated, given
something much, much worse than a hundred strokes of flogging?
Tom Jigme Wheat has told us that
mistreated! You think the man enjoyed being mistreated, given
something much, much worse than a hundred strokes of flogging?
Tom Jigme Wheat has told us that
>The Qing sent troops to Tibet at the request of the dalai lama to
>drive out the mongols and Gurkkas.
>drive out the mongols and Gurkkas.
Now that is treachery - as far as the Mongols are concerned!
And you, Peter the lamas-sycophant posted something neurotic from a
children and grandchildren (when a new power in China came along in
the form of the Qing Dynasty). And Genghis Klan was turning in his
grave for nearly 300 years before Heaven finally granted his great
grandchildren a permanent home called the Mongolian People's Republic.
That's right, the monks are no longer in charge - only the people - in
Mongolia today.
So, why shouldn't the Tibetan people enjoy the same today?
Why shouldn't the majority of the Tibetan people who were serfs under
the lamas before be free and happy today, about which the neurotic
poet Tashi Rabten now bitterly complains?
That's right, the monks are no longer in charge - only the people - in
Mongolia today.
So, why shouldn't the Tibetan people enjoy the same today?
Why shouldn't the majority of the Tibetan people who were serfs under
the lamas before be free and happy today, about which the neurotic
Now that's what I would call Genghis Klan's final revenge against the
treacherous lamas.
lo yeeOn
Subject: What would Genghis Khan do if he knew that Da Lama had
conspired to drive out his grandchildren? Tibet is a province of
China still occupied by Tibetan people who just don't want Da Lama to
return!
loss for he hadn't prayed to God since he joined the CCP.
But then he suddenly remembered something: While the Mongols remained
nomads and a free people, the Tibetan monks continued to run a feudal
serfdom (even as the rest of the world had long left it behind).
But then he suddenly remembered something: While the Mongols remained
nomads and a free people, the Tibetan monks continued to run a feudal
serfdom (even as the rest of the world had long left it behind).
"That's it," Mao snapped his fingers. "I know what to do:
What must be done will be done! I must carry my Tibetan brothers
out of serfdom, even if I have to carry them on my shoulders, even
if I have to swim across the rapid streams of Sichuan."
Of course the rest is history - the monks lost and the Tibetans won
their freedom.
Remember that when the West talks about the resentment of the Tibetans
What must be done will be done! I must carry my Tibetan brothers
out of serfdom, even if I have to carry them on my shoulders, even
if I have to swim across the rapid streams of Sichuan."
Of course the rest is history - the monks lost and the Tibetans won
their freedom.
against the Chinese government, the reality is that there are two
camps: a) the monks and their external links who were landowners,
"nobles", the son of a former king who was personally "crowned" by Da
Lama himself six or seven years ago, and lamas in exile on one side;
and b) the Tibetan people who constitute the 92% of the people, many
of whom were former serfs.
While the self-immolation incidents are drying up because the external
elements are meeting a lot of obstacles to continue to make their
mischief of burning innocent children alive, the 92% of the millions
of Tibetans in China minus 118 lambs of Da Lama's sacrifice want to
live. And they realize that going with their Chinese brothers and
sisters is putting the best foot forward.
camps: a) the monks and their external links who were landowners,
"nobles", the son of a former king who was personally "crowned" by Da
Lama himself six or seven years ago, and lamas in exile on one side;
and b) the Tibetan people who constitute the 92% of the people, many
of whom were former serfs.
While the self-immolation incidents are drying up because the external
elements are meeting a lot of obstacles to continue to make their
mischief of burning innocent children alive, the 92% of the millions
of Tibetans in China minus 118 lambs of Da Lama's sacrifice want to
live. And they realize that going with their Chinese brothers and
Taib Mahmud of SARAWAK , a giant 15 billion US$ Corrupted gorrilla in KUCHIN
Jun 6, 2013, 3:14:33 AM6/6/13
to
I want my Sarawak
I wak you
you cannot wak me ... Ha Ha ha
I wak you
you cannot wak me ... Ha Ha ha
Peter Terpstra
Jun 6, 2013, 3:21:27 AM6/6/13
to
lo yeeOn wrote:
> Khan's revenge against the treacherous lamas
Hahahaha, you stories are getting even more fantasies :-)
Is the CCP making you do this?
You should know you have your own respectability!
Who is mister lo yeeOn?
Who am "I"?
With love and respect to you, Peter
> Khan's revenge against the treacherous lamas
Hahahaha, you stories are getting even more fantasies :-)
Is the CCP making you do this?
You should know you have your own respectability!
Who is mister lo yeeOn?
Who am "I"?
With love and respect to you, Peter
lo yeeOn
Jun 6, 2013, 11:12:38 AM6/6/13
to
The vilest corruption of Buddhism by one who pretends to be a formost
contemporary interpreter of the religion - the Dalai Lama no.14:
"I am puzzled by the Dalai Lama's failure to act decisively in this
situation, and by his decision not to advise people to consider
their dependents before killing themselves," said Robbie Barnett,
director of modern Tibet studies at Columbia University.
And the very sick - if not the sickest of all - lamas' "honor-based"
politics:
"Many people see themselves as socially insignificant, particularly
younger women, so it seems to them more reasonable that they should
sacrifice themselves for the honor of the community as a whole - as
the community leaders, the monks, had already done," said Columbia's
Barnett.
In article <3439520.TWK781D6ep@Dharma>,
than the allegory that I have posted.
Can you even see the irony of the shifting allegiance of the lamas -
going from the Mongols (when the Mongols were fearsome) to the
Manchurian Chinese (when they became fearsome) to now the CIA, and
hobnobbing with the British and the Germans at the same time when the
latter were trying to make an inroad into South Asia.
There is a good reason why the lamas-system has never produced a
government the world would want to recognize.
The lamas are slimy self-serving animals who exploited the Tibetans
and harvested their labors with a religion which pleads rejection of
worldly desire and compassion for all forms of life.
Everything I say is on the internet or printed on pages of books. I
only post to make sure that when you post nonsense, people can see the
truth when they see the evidence that I provide in my follow-ups.
And precisely because of my integrity, you are nervous with my posts.
You are the one who created the noisy distraction with non-sequitur
subject lines like "Who Are You" or "WHO ARE YOU". But it is not
going to hide the fact that your lama stories are not going to fly.
lo yeeOn
1) Let the lama politics be eternally buried:
--------------------------------
2) Subject: The Tibetans are smiling and that makes Theurang unhappy!
So where is this Tibetan writer's compassion? Re: They treat us like
animals By Theurang (Tibetan writer)
In article <7167513.oz1WfLRYUc@Dharma>,
Peter Terpstra <peter.t...@gmail.com> wrote:
>"They treat us like animals"
>Tuesday, 7 May 2013
>
>Tashi Rabten (pen name: Theurang) is a Tibetan writer, poet and editor
>who is serving a four-year sentence in Mianyang Prison,
>Sichuan Province. He graduated from North-West University for
>Nationalities and edited the now-banned Tibetan language
>journal "Shar Dungri" and also published "Written in Blood", a
>compilation of his poems, notes and writings on the situation in
>Tibet following the 2008 protests.
>
>In this essay, translated by TCHRD, the writer condemns the cultural
>insensitivity of Chinese tourists and the commercialization
>of Tibetan culture as the number of Chinese tourists continues to rise,
>exerting immense pressure on the fragile ecology and
>landscape of the Tibetan Plateau.
>
>They treat us like animals
Bad title! 'cos it's making a false advertisement.
A reader's normal response to the words "They treat us like animals"
is that of "They treat us badly".
The article below doesn't convey that kind of imagery. It's easy for
an average reader to say that the author is belly-aching. "What's he
complaining about? Tourists giving indigenous people money who are
all too happy to accept? Tourists snapping pictures at anybody in
sight? Tourists sharing the surrounding of monasteries with the
indigenous people? Jeez-Louise, what kind of times are we living in
today? Even if there are no tourists in London or New York, CCTV are
still all over the respective city, constantly monitoring every face
in its sight.
And the news media has just finished praising these CCTV cameras in
Boston for the speed with which the FBI succeeded in identifying the
bombing suspects.
And when you think about it, perhaps these tourist cameras may also
serve as a socially (in addition to the individually) useful function
of capturing the faces of a few potential self-immolation inciters
among the monks near the monasteries. How about that for a win-win
situation?
Also, if you read Heinrich Harrer's Sieben Jahre in Tibet (Seven Years
in Tibet), you'll learn that Da Lama had several expensive telescopes
in his possession. And he had some of them mounted on a balcony at
his Potola Palace residential quarters overlooking the town of Lhasa.
There he enjoyed peering into his telescopes to check out what the
people were doing in their gardens.
Harrer observed that many of Da Lama's subjects would, as soon as they
discovered that they were being watched and studied, quickly remove
themselves from plain view. And they would explain that they didn't
want to "sadden the heart" of their young ruler.
So, we can see that snooping is not a new phenomenon in Tibet. The
only difference is that today a tourist can aim his/her camera at you
if you are on a street while during the years when Da Lama was still
the ruler of Tibet, only he was privileged to watch over your every
moves.
So, Theurang, author of "They treat us like animals", really does not
have a legitimate complaint against either the tourists who have been
flocking to Tibet these days or the Chinese government for promoting
tourism over there.
Actually, the author is quite bitter about his fellow Tibetans who are
all too happy to earn some money by being the locals who know their
way.
What makes me laugh and cry at the same time is to witness the
smiling faces of the Tibetan masses lured by hard cash. . . .
. . . When tourist vehicles arrive, ruddy-faced Tibetan women and
when the Dalai Lamas for generations have been so glad to collect gold
watches, diamond music boxes, all kinds of jewels, and tons and tons
of gold bars and gold coins? Why can't he have a little compassion
and share the joy of his own people whose parents or grandparents were
serfs working in extreme conditions just to have food in the stomach
in the end of the day while the abbots and landowners lived like
kings?
While I can sympathize with Theurang, the author, for his sentimental
yearning for an era that is gone, there is no suggestion whatsoever
that "They treat us like animials".
Actually, the author is extremely confused about that certain "race
that once conquered two-thirds of the world's territory" that, in his
view, "has now been turned into a bunch of soul-less slaves serving
other people". Be a little more kind to your own people and a lot
less assured of your righteousness, will you?
First, as you know from history, there might have been a "race" that
"once conquered two-thirds of the world's territory", if you want to
discount the Americas and Africa as well as much of the rest of the
planet, but it couldn't hold on to much of that territory for even a
hundred years. Part of the reason, about which many historians can
readily agree, is that the Mongols weren't sufficiently sophisticated
to rule that amount of territory, once they got off their horses and
put their swords away.
Second, the Tibetan masses didn't have a chance once they were turned
into serfs serving the monks after the latter figured out how to use
religion to make them superstitious, illiterate, and willing to work
for the ruling class practically for free for their entire lives and
still expect to reincarnate as worms in the next life.
Given the historical context, the Tibetans never had a choice. They
were only liberated when the CCP came and wrested the power from the
landowners and the abbots, and outlawed serfdom and instituted land
reform.
Theurang can fill himself with "anger" and let "resentment boil in"
his own heart. But what he has described lends plenty of support to
the Chinese government's claim that the West's accusation that it
represses the Tibetans is a lie.
China's ruling class has no incentive to repress its minorities
because there are so many of them in substantial numbers. If they do
not repress the Miao or the Manchu, for example, then what motivation
is there for them to selectively repress the Uighurs or Da Lama's
followers, other than the facts that they are terrorists and
treacherous elements in the society who are wilfully working with
foreigners to destabilize the country to cause it to fall apart?
Thanks Theurang, your article does a lot of good to vindicate the
Chinese government - against the lies and distortions from the VOA,
RFA, and the like of BBC News' Damian Grammaticas.
lo yeeOn
>
> By Theurang
>
>During the summer, my homeland is filled with swarms of Chinese
>tourists. The rush of tourists means that elderly Tibetans are
>having difficulties circumambulating the monasteries. Covering their
>heads in robes, monks and nuns stand by gaping at the
>tourists in silence. When I see these images, when I think about them,
>I suffer from intense pain and despair. Anger and
>resentment boil in my heart. Today, under the crushing boots of
>foreigners, my homeland is suffering from degeneration and
>decay.
>
>Like swarms of ants unleashed by anthills, these increasing number of
>tourists are making preparations to settle themselves
>permanently on our lands. What makes me laugh and cry at the same time
>is to witness the smiling faces of the Tibetan masses
>lured by hard cash. Even the leaders of the nomadic villages have
>signed contracts to sell their lands. In the next two to three
>years, these visitors who call themselves tourists will settle
>permanently on our lands.
>sizes in their hands. Crowds of monks, elderly folks and "servicemen"
>bearing horses gape at the tourists when the latter take pictures of
>nomadic villages and rivers. One of the tourists pointed his camera
>at the strange-looking eyes of these Tibetans and took their
>pictures. When I saw this, I wondered: "When the tourist returns to
>his place, where would he advertize this picture and what sort of
>caption would he give it?" These thoughts gave me intense pain and
>despair.
>
>Why do these tourists point their cameras on the faces of elderly
>Tibetans and take their pictures? Do these tourists not have a sense
>of ethics and morality? If we turn around and point the camera on
>their faces and take their pictures, wouldn't they run away from us
>saying we are violating their rights? The fact that they keep taking
>pictures of our people, our mountains and our villages "despite
>knowing that such actions are unethical, immoral and illegal" clearly
>shows what kind of status our people enjoy. They treat us like
>animals lacking the ability of speech. They treat us as wage laborers
>who could be swayed in any direction by the lure of hard cash. They
>treat us as a race of ignorant barbarians. My dear fellow countrymen,
>as the saying goes, if sons fail to inherit the legacy of forefathers
>or if the thread fails to inherit the legacy of needles, others would
>keep trampling on our heads.
>
>What would happen if you visit a Chinese city and randomly point your
>camera on the face of a Chinese and take his picture? What
>consequences would you have to bear if you selfishly take pictures of
>homes, belongings and other precious objects of a city? How would the
>whip of laws chase you away if you trample upon the rights and
>liberties of people living in a city? Why can't the standards of law
>and ethics of the cities be applied equally in our nomadic
>grasslands? Why can't camera-holding tourists riding in cars and
>masses on horses enjoy equal status if human rights have a universal
>resonance? Like in the cities, why can't we put up signboards in
>nomadic grasslands declaring, "Taking pictures, peeing and spitting
>are strictly prohibited here!"
>
>http://www.tchrd.org/2013/05/they-treat-us-like-animals/
3) Special Report: The mother who burned herself to death for Tibet
By Sui-Lee Wee BARMA, China | Thu Jun 6, 2013 1:49am EDT
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/06/06/us-china-tibet-mothers-specialreport-idUSBRE95500Q20130606
The slim, rosy-cheeked mother of four was a devout Tibetan Buddhist, a
close relative says. But her visits to the Dzamthang Jonang monastery
this spring were out of character. So too were the spiritual mantras
Kalkyi had begun to chant several times a day, and the way she had
taken to prostrating herself in the monastery at least twice a day.
On the chilly afternoon of March 24, Kalkyi - who like some Tibetans
went by just one name - stood outside the monastery gates with about
200 to 300 other worshippers. She doused herself with gasoline and lit
a match. Flames instantly engulfed her, and as they did, she shouted
words that no one could make out.
Witnesses say it took less than 15 minutes for the blaze to kill
Kalkyi. She was 30 years old.
It was the ninth time in just over a year that a Tibetan mother had
set herself on fire, an especially startling statistic to emerge from
a grisly campaign of suicidal political defiance that shows no sign of
ending.
. . .
The escalating suicide toll has put the Dalai Lama in a bind. He has
called the acts "understandable," even as he says he does not
encourage them.
Several Tibet scholars have criticized his stance, saying his
reluctance to tell his people to stop has strengthened their resolve
to continue the fiery protests.
"I am puzzled by the Dalai Lama's failure to act decisively in this
situation, and by his decision not to advise people to consider their
dependents before killing themselves," said Robbie Barnett, director
of modern Tibet studies at Columbia University.
The Dalai Lama did not respond to requests for comment.
In an interview, Khedroob Thondup, the Dalai Lama's nephew, said his
uncle is in a "very difficult position." Even an appeal from the Dalai
Lama couldn't stop the self-immolations, he said. "This is not
something started by him and this is not something he can end."
"He feels these people are protesting because there are no
alternatives, that they are desperate," said Khedroob Thondup. "When
they self-immolate, they are asking him to return."
Lobsang Sangay, prime minister of the government in exile, said in an
interview the self-immolations are a political issue. The response
should come not from the Dalai Lama but from Sangay's government,
which discourages the suicides. The blame lies with Beijing - and so
does the solution, he says.
"All they need to do is reform their repressive policies, and
introduce liberal policies towards the Tibetan people, and solve the
issue of Tibet peacefully through dialogue," Sangay said.
That approach, called the "Middle Way" by the Tibetans, seeks a Hong
Kong-style autonomy for the region. But years of autonomy talks
between the two sides broke down in 2010. And the growing carnage has
added to the frustration some Tibetan activists have with the Middle
Way. They seek independence, not just autonomy, and advocate
non-violent ways of protest.
Xi, the new president, has said very little publicly about Tibet since
taking office in March. His late father, a liberal-minded former vice
premier, was close to the Dalai Lama. The Tibetan leader once gave the
elder Xi an expensive watch in the 1950s, a gift the senior party
official still wore decades later.
The younger Xi has shown no such warmth. During a trip to Tibet last
July, Xi vowed to crack down on separatist forces that he said were
led by the Dalai Lama.
State broadcaster CCTV aired a documentary in mid-May that blamed the
"Dalai Lama clique" for publishing a guidebook teaching Tibetans how
to set themselves on fire. The accusation was a reference to a blog
post by a former member of Tibet's parliament-in-exile, who advised
would-be suicides to maximize the impact through "military-like"
planning, such as having friends film the act. The Tibetan
government-in-exile denounced the post as "irresponsible".
HONOR THE COMMUNITY
Political stalemate and a suffocating crackdown are the standard
reasons given to explain the rising number of fiery suicides. But some
scholars and Tibetans say there may be more to the death of a woman
like Kalkyi than that.
Tibetans in China practice what some scholars call an "honor-based"
politics. "Many people see themselves as socially insignificant,
particularly younger women, so it seems to them more reasonable that
they should sacrifice themselves for the honor of the community as a
whole - as the community leaders, the monks, had already done," said
Columbia's Barnett.
As such, the second wave of self-immolations - mostly involving lay
Tibetans - has been a way to honor the 2011 deaths among the clergy
and give meaning to their sacrifice. What's worrying, Barnett said, is
that they are spreading rapidly among people - such as young mothers
like Kalkyi - who had not previously been drawn to overt defiance.
The township of Barma, called Zhongrangtang in Chinese, is remote,
poor and sparsely populated, with only 4,000 inhabitants. Women clad
in sheepskin garments hack at rocks with construction tools to make
gravel. Few speak Chinese.
One main road runs through the township, which sits 3,560 meters
(11,680 feet) above sea level and is surrounded by mountains dotted
with pine trees. About 96 percent of the people who live there are
herders, according to 2009 data from the website of the local county
government.
Kalkyi's husband, Truype, was one of them. A relative of Kalkyi
described the family as middle-class for the region. Truype made some
money selling his animals. He also built houses. They had sold one
home and were living in a second, a traditional, two-story mud-brick
structure. A month before she died, according to a relative, Kalkyi
said they had just finished work on a third, a modern stone building,
but had not yet furnished it.
In the summer Kalkyi and Truype would climb the mountains to gather
herbs and fungi to sell. Many Tibetan nomads are skilled at harvesting
"caterpillar fungi", a prized ingredient in traditional Chinese
medicine, which sells for 225,000 yuan ($36,700) per kilogram.
The couple had four children, who range in age from one to 10. In the
yard of their brick house, Tibetan prayer flags on a long pole now
flutter in the wind. A stone carving on the wall in front of her house
is inscribed with the Tibetan words: "Om mani padme hum," a
traditional Buddhist mantra that is also chanted as a prayer to the
Dalai Lama.
Kalkyi was uneducated. The Chinese government shut down
Tibetan-language schools in the 1990s, so she never learned how to
write, and she never attended the Chinese-language schools the
government opened in their place. When she got married at 20, she
wanted to learn Tibetan so she could pray, say those who know her. She
began going to the Dzamthang Jonang, an imposing structure that
consists of three different monasteries, surrounded by large
courtyards and smaller buildings.
Her friends and a family member who lived with her for two years
describe her as easygoing, a woman who liked chatting with the elderly
folk in her village. According to the relative and to Tsangyang
Gyatso, an India-based Tibetan who has contacts with Kalkyi's family
and friends, her family life was stable and she had no financial
problems.
In the weeks and months before she took her life, Kalkyi grew more
openly devout, those closest to her say, but she displayed no signs of
political radicalism.
"I never had any idea she would set herself on fire," the close
relative told Reuters on condition of anonymity. According to
neighbors, her husband Truype was also caught off guard.
Reuters was unable to speak to Truype. Police stopped Reuters
reporters en route to his home and detained them for six hours before
ordering them to leave for Chengdu, the provincial capital.
In the immediate aftermath of Kalkyi's death on March 24th, monks from
the Dzamthang Jonang monastery carried her body into the main hall, as
Chinese security forces and military locked down the area.
Tibetan culture requires a body be kept until an astrologer determines
the most auspicious date for a cremation ceremony. But Chinese
authorities ordered that Kalkyi's ceremony be completed by midnight,
witnesses say. Even so, despite a large military presence, that
evening some 4,000 people gathered on the monastery's grounds for the
ceremony, according to local residents.
The close relative has come to believe that Kalkyi's decision to
sacrifice her life was meant to honor the Tibetan community. "She
might have thought that since she didn't go to school, this was the
only way she could do something for her country."
"Right after her fiery protest," he said, "I was very sad, but then I
was really, really happy, because even a young woman can sacrifice her
life for such a big cause, a nation's cause."
To the Chinese government's alarm, they continue to do so.
Less than a month after Kalkyi killed herself, a 20-year-old woman
named Chugtso trekked from her home to the Dzamthang Jonang
monastery. On April 16, at around 3 p.m., she set herself ablaze,
dying in almost the same spot as Kalkyi.
Chugtso was the mother of a three-year-old boy.
(Additional reporting by Terril Yue Jones and Beijing Newsroom in
Beijing, Frank Jack Daniel in New Delhi and Stephanie Ulmer-Nebehay in
Geneva. Editing by Bill Powell and Bill Tarrant)
contemporary interpreter of the religion - the Dalai Lama no.14:
"I am puzzled by the Dalai Lama's failure to act decisively in this
situation, and by his decision not to advise people to consider
their dependents before killing themselves," said Robbie Barnett,
director of modern Tibet studies at Columbia University.
And the very sick - if not the sickest of all - lamas' "honor-based"
politics:
"Many people see themselves as socially insignificant, particularly
younger women, so it seems to them more reasonable that they should
sacrifice themselves for the honor of the community as a whole - as
the community leaders, the monks, had already done," said Columbia's
Barnett.
In article <3439520.TWK781D6ep@Dharma>,
Peter Terpstra <peter.t...@gmail.com> wrote:
>lo yeeOn wrote:
>
>> Khan's revenge against the treacherous lamas
>
>Hahahaha, you stories are getting even more fantasies :-)
You know your stories about Da Lama and his cohorts are more fantastic
>lo yeeOn wrote:
>
>> Khan's revenge against the treacherous lamas
>
>Hahahaha, you stories are getting even more fantasies :-)
than the allegory that I have posted.
Can you even see the irony of the shifting allegiance of the lamas -
going from the Mongols (when the Mongols were fearsome) to the
Manchurian Chinese (when they became fearsome) to now the CIA, and
hobnobbing with the British and the Germans at the same time when the
latter were trying to make an inroad into South Asia.
There is a good reason why the lamas-system has never produced a
government the world would want to recognize.
The lamas are slimy self-serving animals who exploited the Tibetans
and harvested their labors with a religion which pleads rejection of
worldly desire and compassion for all forms of life.
Everything I say is on the internet or printed on pages of books. I
only post to make sure that when you post nonsense, people can see the
truth when they see the evidence that I provide in my follow-ups.
And precisely because of my integrity, you are nervous with my posts.
You are the one who created the noisy distraction with non-sequitur
subject lines like "Who Are You" or "WHO ARE YOU". But it is not
going to hide the fact that your lama stories are not going to fly.
lo yeeOn
1) Let the lama politics be eternally buried:
2) Subject: The Tibetans are smiling and that makes Theurang unhappy!
So where is this Tibetan writer's compassion? Re: They treat us like
animals By Theurang (Tibetan writer)
In article <7167513.oz1WfLRYUc@Dharma>,
Peter Terpstra <peter.t...@gmail.com> wrote:
>"They treat us like animals"
>Tuesday, 7 May 2013
>
>Tashi Rabten (pen name: Theurang) is a Tibetan writer, poet and editor
>who is serving a four-year sentence in Mianyang Prison,
>Sichuan Province. He graduated from North-West University for
>Nationalities and edited the now-banned Tibetan language
>journal "Shar Dungri" and also published "Written in Blood", a
>compilation of his poems, notes and writings on the situation in
>Tibet following the 2008 protests.
>
>In this essay, translated by TCHRD, the writer condemns the cultural
>insensitivity of Chinese tourists and the commercialization
>of Tibetan culture as the number of Chinese tourists continues to rise,
>exerting immense pressure on the fragile ecology and
>landscape of the Tibetan Plateau.
>
>They treat us like animals
Bad title! 'cos it's making a false advertisement.
A reader's normal response to the words "They treat us like animals"
is that of "They treat us badly".
The article below doesn't convey that kind of imagery. It's easy for
an average reader to say that the author is belly-aching. "What's he
complaining about? Tourists giving indigenous people money who are
all too happy to accept? Tourists snapping pictures at anybody in
sight? Tourists sharing the surrounding of monasteries with the
indigenous people? Jeez-Louise, what kind of times are we living in
today? Even if there are no tourists in London or New York, CCTV are
still all over the respective city, constantly monitoring every face
in its sight.
And the news media has just finished praising these CCTV cameras in
Boston for the speed with which the FBI succeeded in identifying the
bombing suspects.
And when you think about it, perhaps these tourist cameras may also
serve as a socially (in addition to the individually) useful function
of capturing the faces of a few potential self-immolation inciters
among the monks near the monasteries. How about that for a win-win
situation?
Also, if you read Heinrich Harrer's Sieben Jahre in Tibet (Seven Years
in Tibet), you'll learn that Da Lama had several expensive telescopes
in his possession. And he had some of them mounted on a balcony at
his Potola Palace residential quarters overlooking the town of Lhasa.
There he enjoyed peering into his telescopes to check out what the
people were doing in their gardens.
Harrer observed that many of Da Lama's subjects would, as soon as they
discovered that they were being watched and studied, quickly remove
themselves from plain view. And they would explain that they didn't
want to "sadden the heart" of their young ruler.
So, we can see that snooping is not a new phenomenon in Tibet. The
only difference is that today a tourist can aim his/her camera at you
if you are on a street while during the years when Da Lama was still
the ruler of Tibet, only he was privileged to watch over your every
moves.
So, Theurang, author of "They treat us like animals", really does not
have a legitimate complaint against either the tourists who have been
flocking to Tibet these days or the Chinese government for promoting
tourism over there.
Actually, the author is quite bitter about his fellow Tibetans who are
all too happy to earn some money by being the locals who know their
way.
What makes me laugh and cry at the same time is to witness the
smiling faces of the Tibetan masses lured by hard cash. . . .
. . . When tourist vehicles arrive, ruddy-faced Tibetan women and
snot-nosed Tibetan boys rush into action with their horses. Holding
their breath, desperation in their eyes, they carry Chinese tourists
on their horses and walk up the mountains. Holding fifty-Yuan notes
in their hands, smiles written all over their faces, they kill their
time waiting for the arrival of other tourists. When I see them, I
wonder how a race that once conquered two-thirds of the world's
territory has now been turned into a bunch of soul-less slaves
serving other people. My dear fellow-countrymen, if we cannot paint
the bones of our ancestors in gold, the least we could do is not to
throw their gray hair in the wind.
But why did the author begrudge the masses for being materialistic
their breath, desperation in their eyes, they carry Chinese tourists
on their horses and walk up the mountains. Holding fifty-Yuan notes
in their hands, smiles written all over their faces, they kill their
time waiting for the arrival of other tourists. When I see them, I
wonder how a race that once conquered two-thirds of the world's
territory has now been turned into a bunch of soul-less slaves
serving other people. My dear fellow-countrymen, if we cannot paint
the bones of our ancestors in gold, the least we could do is not to
throw their gray hair in the wind.
when the Dalai Lamas for generations have been so glad to collect gold
watches, diamond music boxes, all kinds of jewels, and tons and tons
of gold bars and gold coins? Why can't he have a little compassion
and share the joy of his own people whose parents or grandparents were
serfs working in extreme conditions just to have food in the stomach
in the end of the day while the abbots and landowners lived like
kings?
While I can sympathize with Theurang, the author, for his sentimental
yearning for an era that is gone, there is no suggestion whatsoever
that "They treat us like animials".
Actually, the author is extremely confused about that certain "race
that once conquered two-thirds of the world's territory" that, in his
view, "has now been turned into a bunch of soul-less slaves serving
other people". Be a little more kind to your own people and a lot
less assured of your righteousness, will you?
First, as you know from history, there might have been a "race" that
"once conquered two-thirds of the world's territory", if you want to
discount the Americas and Africa as well as much of the rest of the
planet, but it couldn't hold on to much of that territory for even a
hundred years. Part of the reason, about which many historians can
readily agree, is that the Mongols weren't sufficiently sophisticated
to rule that amount of territory, once they got off their horses and
put their swords away.
Second, the Tibetan masses didn't have a chance once they were turned
into serfs serving the monks after the latter figured out how to use
religion to make them superstitious, illiterate, and willing to work
for the ruling class practically for free for their entire lives and
still expect to reincarnate as worms in the next life.
Given the historical context, the Tibetans never had a choice. They
were only liberated when the CCP came and wrested the power from the
landowners and the abbots, and outlawed serfdom and instituted land
reform.
Theurang can fill himself with "anger" and let "resentment boil in"
his own heart. But what he has described lends plenty of support to
the Chinese government's claim that the West's accusation that it
represses the Tibetans is a lie.
China's ruling class has no incentive to repress its minorities
because there are so many of them in substantial numbers. If they do
not repress the Miao or the Manchu, for example, then what motivation
is there for them to selectively repress the Uighurs or Da Lama's
followers, other than the facts that they are terrorists and
treacherous elements in the society who are wilfully working with
foreigners to destabilize the country to cause it to fall apart?
Thanks Theurang, your article does a lot of good to vindicate the
Chinese government - against the lies and distortions from the VOA,
RFA, and the like of BBC News' Damian Grammaticas.
lo yeeOn
>
> By Theurang
>
>During the summer, my homeland is filled with swarms of Chinese
>tourists. The rush of tourists means that elderly Tibetans are
>having difficulties circumambulating the monasteries. Covering their
>heads in robes, monks and nuns stand by gaping at the
>tourists in silence. When I see these images, when I think about them,
>I suffer from intense pain and despair. Anger and
>resentment boil in my heart. Today, under the crushing boots of
>foreigners, my homeland is suffering from degeneration and
>decay.
>
>Like swarms of ants unleashed by anthills, these increasing number of
>tourists are making preparations to settle themselves
>permanently on our lands. What makes me laugh and cry at the same time
>is to witness the smiling faces of the Tibetan masses
>lured by hard cash. Even the leaders of the nomadic villages have
>signed contracts to sell their lands. In the next two to three
>years, these visitors who call themselves tourists will settle
>permanently on our lands.
>
>When tourist vehicles arrive, ruddy-faced Tibetan women and
>snot-nosed Tibetan boys rush into action with their horses. Holding
>their breath, desperation in their eyes, they carry Chinese tourists
>on their horses and walk up the mountains. Holding fifty-Yuan notes
>in their hands, smiles written all over their faces, they kill their
>time waiting for the arrival of other tourists. When I see them, I
>wonder how a race that once conquered two-thirds of the world's
>territory has now been turned into a bunch of soul-less slaves
>serving other people. My dear fellow-countrymen, if we cannot paint
>the bones of our ancestors in gold, the least we could do is not to
>throw their gray hair in the wind.
>
>Tourists visiting from surrounding areas carry cameras of different
>When tourist vehicles arrive, ruddy-faced Tibetan women and
>snot-nosed Tibetan boys rush into action with their horses. Holding
>their breath, desperation in their eyes, they carry Chinese tourists
>on their horses and walk up the mountains. Holding fifty-Yuan notes
>in their hands, smiles written all over their faces, they kill their
>time waiting for the arrival of other tourists. When I see them, I
>wonder how a race that once conquered two-thirds of the world's
>territory has now been turned into a bunch of soul-less slaves
>serving other people. My dear fellow-countrymen, if we cannot paint
>the bones of our ancestors in gold, the least we could do is not to
>throw their gray hair in the wind.
>
>sizes in their hands. Crowds of monks, elderly folks and "servicemen"
>bearing horses gape at the tourists when the latter take pictures of
>nomadic villages and rivers. One of the tourists pointed his camera
>at the strange-looking eyes of these Tibetans and took their
>pictures. When I saw this, I wondered: "When the tourist returns to
>his place, where would he advertize this picture and what sort of
>caption would he give it?" These thoughts gave me intense pain and
>despair.
>
>Why do these tourists point their cameras on the faces of elderly
>Tibetans and take their pictures? Do these tourists not have a sense
>of ethics and morality? If we turn around and point the camera on
>their faces and take their pictures, wouldn't they run away from us
>saying we are violating their rights? The fact that they keep taking
>pictures of our people, our mountains and our villages "despite
>knowing that such actions are unethical, immoral and illegal" clearly
>shows what kind of status our people enjoy. They treat us like
>animals lacking the ability of speech. They treat us as wage laborers
>who could be swayed in any direction by the lure of hard cash. They
>treat us as a race of ignorant barbarians. My dear fellow countrymen,
>as the saying goes, if sons fail to inherit the legacy of forefathers
>or if the thread fails to inherit the legacy of needles, others would
>keep trampling on our heads.
>
>What would happen if you visit a Chinese city and randomly point your
>camera on the face of a Chinese and take his picture? What
>consequences would you have to bear if you selfishly take pictures of
>homes, belongings and other precious objects of a city? How would the
>whip of laws chase you away if you trample upon the rights and
>liberties of people living in a city? Why can't the standards of law
>and ethics of the cities be applied equally in our nomadic
>grasslands? Why can't camera-holding tourists riding in cars and
>masses on horses enjoy equal status if human rights have a universal
>resonance? Like in the cities, why can't we put up signboards in
>nomadic grasslands declaring, "Taking pictures, peeing and spitting
>are strictly prohibited here!"
>
>http://www.tchrd.org/2013/05/they-treat-us-like-animals/
3) Special Report: The mother who burned herself to death for Tibet
By Sui-Lee Wee BARMA, China | Thu Jun 6, 2013 1:49am EDT
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/06/06/us-china-tibet-mothers-specialreport-idUSBRE95500Q20130606
The slim, rosy-cheeked mother of four was a devout Tibetan Buddhist, a
close relative says. But her visits to the Dzamthang Jonang monastery
this spring were out of character. So too were the spiritual mantras
Kalkyi had begun to chant several times a day, and the way she had
taken to prostrating herself in the monastery at least twice a day.
On the chilly afternoon of March 24, Kalkyi - who like some Tibetans
went by just one name - stood outside the monastery gates with about
200 to 300 other worshippers. She doused herself with gasoline and lit
a match. Flames instantly engulfed her, and as they did, she shouted
words that no one could make out.
Witnesses say it took less than 15 minutes for the blaze to kill
Kalkyi. She was 30 years old.
It was the ninth time in just over a year that a Tibetan mother had
set herself on fire, an especially startling statistic to emerge from
a grisly campaign of suicidal political defiance that shows no sign of
ending.
. . .
The escalating suicide toll has put the Dalai Lama in a bind. He has
called the acts "understandable," even as he says he does not
encourage them.
Several Tibet scholars have criticized his stance, saying his
reluctance to tell his people to stop has strengthened their resolve
to continue the fiery protests.
"I am puzzled by the Dalai Lama's failure to act decisively in this
situation, and by his decision not to advise people to consider their
dependents before killing themselves," said Robbie Barnett, director
of modern Tibet studies at Columbia University.
The Dalai Lama did not respond to requests for comment.
In an interview, Khedroob Thondup, the Dalai Lama's nephew, said his
uncle is in a "very difficult position." Even an appeal from the Dalai
Lama couldn't stop the self-immolations, he said. "This is not
something started by him and this is not something he can end."
"He feels these people are protesting because there are no
alternatives, that they are desperate," said Khedroob Thondup. "When
they self-immolate, they are asking him to return."
Lobsang Sangay, prime minister of the government in exile, said in an
interview the self-immolations are a political issue. The response
should come not from the Dalai Lama but from Sangay's government,
which discourages the suicides. The blame lies with Beijing - and so
does the solution, he says.
"All they need to do is reform their repressive policies, and
introduce liberal policies towards the Tibetan people, and solve the
issue of Tibet peacefully through dialogue," Sangay said.
That approach, called the "Middle Way" by the Tibetans, seeks a Hong
Kong-style autonomy for the region. But years of autonomy talks
between the two sides broke down in 2010. And the growing carnage has
added to the frustration some Tibetan activists have with the Middle
Way. They seek independence, not just autonomy, and advocate
non-violent ways of protest.
Xi, the new president, has said very little publicly about Tibet since
taking office in March. His late father, a liberal-minded former vice
premier, was close to the Dalai Lama. The Tibetan leader once gave the
elder Xi an expensive watch in the 1950s, a gift the senior party
official still wore decades later.
The younger Xi has shown no such warmth. During a trip to Tibet last
July, Xi vowed to crack down on separatist forces that he said were
led by the Dalai Lama.
State broadcaster CCTV aired a documentary in mid-May that blamed the
"Dalai Lama clique" for publishing a guidebook teaching Tibetans how
to set themselves on fire. The accusation was a reference to a blog
post by a former member of Tibet's parliament-in-exile, who advised
would-be suicides to maximize the impact through "military-like"
planning, such as having friends film the act. The Tibetan
government-in-exile denounced the post as "irresponsible".
HONOR THE COMMUNITY
Political stalemate and a suffocating crackdown are the standard
reasons given to explain the rising number of fiery suicides. But some
scholars and Tibetans say there may be more to the death of a woman
like Kalkyi than that.
Tibetans in China practice what some scholars call an "honor-based"
politics. "Many people see themselves as socially insignificant,
particularly younger women, so it seems to them more reasonable that
they should sacrifice themselves for the honor of the community as a
whole - as the community leaders, the monks, had already done," said
Columbia's Barnett.
As such, the second wave of self-immolations - mostly involving lay
Tibetans - has been a way to honor the 2011 deaths among the clergy
and give meaning to their sacrifice. What's worrying, Barnett said, is
that they are spreading rapidly among people - such as young mothers
like Kalkyi - who had not previously been drawn to overt defiance.
The township of Barma, called Zhongrangtang in Chinese, is remote,
poor and sparsely populated, with only 4,000 inhabitants. Women clad
in sheepskin garments hack at rocks with construction tools to make
gravel. Few speak Chinese.
One main road runs through the township, which sits 3,560 meters
(11,680 feet) above sea level and is surrounded by mountains dotted
with pine trees. About 96 percent of the people who live there are
herders, according to 2009 data from the website of the local county
government.
Kalkyi's husband, Truype, was one of them. A relative of Kalkyi
described the family as middle-class for the region. Truype made some
money selling his animals. He also built houses. They had sold one
home and were living in a second, a traditional, two-story mud-brick
structure. A month before she died, according to a relative, Kalkyi
said they had just finished work on a third, a modern stone building,
but had not yet furnished it.
In the summer Kalkyi and Truype would climb the mountains to gather
herbs and fungi to sell. Many Tibetan nomads are skilled at harvesting
"caterpillar fungi", a prized ingredient in traditional Chinese
medicine, which sells for 225,000 yuan ($36,700) per kilogram.
The couple had four children, who range in age from one to 10. In the
yard of their brick house, Tibetan prayer flags on a long pole now
flutter in the wind. A stone carving on the wall in front of her house
is inscribed with the Tibetan words: "Om mani padme hum," a
traditional Buddhist mantra that is also chanted as a prayer to the
Dalai Lama.
Kalkyi was uneducated. The Chinese government shut down
Tibetan-language schools in the 1990s, so she never learned how to
write, and she never attended the Chinese-language schools the
government opened in their place. When she got married at 20, she
wanted to learn Tibetan so she could pray, say those who know her. She
began going to the Dzamthang Jonang, an imposing structure that
consists of three different monasteries, surrounded by large
courtyards and smaller buildings.
Her friends and a family member who lived with her for two years
describe her as easygoing, a woman who liked chatting with the elderly
folk in her village. According to the relative and to Tsangyang
Gyatso, an India-based Tibetan who has contacts with Kalkyi's family
and friends, her family life was stable and she had no financial
problems.
In the weeks and months before she took her life, Kalkyi grew more
openly devout, those closest to her say, but she displayed no signs of
political radicalism.
"I never had any idea she would set herself on fire," the close
relative told Reuters on condition of anonymity. According to
neighbors, her husband Truype was also caught off guard.
Reuters was unable to speak to Truype. Police stopped Reuters
reporters en route to his home and detained them for six hours before
ordering them to leave for Chengdu, the provincial capital.
In the immediate aftermath of Kalkyi's death on March 24th, monks from
the Dzamthang Jonang monastery carried her body into the main hall, as
Chinese security forces and military locked down the area.
Tibetan culture requires a body be kept until an astrologer determines
the most auspicious date for a cremation ceremony. But Chinese
authorities ordered that Kalkyi's ceremony be completed by midnight,
witnesses say. Even so, despite a large military presence, that
evening some 4,000 people gathered on the monastery's grounds for the
ceremony, according to local residents.
The close relative has come to believe that Kalkyi's decision to
sacrifice her life was meant to honor the Tibetan community. "She
might have thought that since she didn't go to school, this was the
only way she could do something for her country."
"Right after her fiery protest," he said, "I was very sad, but then I
was really, really happy, because even a young woman can sacrifice her
life for such a big cause, a nation's cause."
To the Chinese government's alarm, they continue to do so.
Less than a month after Kalkyi killed herself, a 20-year-old woman
named Chugtso trekked from her home to the Dzamthang Jonang
monastery. On April 16, at around 3 p.m., she set herself ablaze,
dying in almost the same spot as Kalkyi.
Chugtso was the mother of a three-year-old boy.
(Additional reporting by Terril Yue Jones and Beijing Newsroom in
Beijing, Frank Jack Daniel in New Delhi and Stephanie Ulmer-Nebehay in
Geneva. Editing by Bill Powell and Bill Tarrant)
1010011110010
Jun 19, 2013, 5:08:26 AM6/19/13
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