Affirming the West
DoD
been overly swayed by the willful misinterpretation of Western history
instigated by Columbia University's infamous late professor, Edward Said. As
a bromide, Western civilization could greatly benefit if the current crop of
presidential hopefuls would immediately read Ibn Warraq's Defending the
West: A Critique of Edward Said's Orientalism (Prometheus, 2007).
Besides clearly identifying the magnitude of the damage Said and his
mindless sycophants have done, the book will also provide an instant
curative for foolish ideas so widely generated by Islamic dyspepsia. At long
last, Western politicians have a yardstick by which to measure our cultural
and political grandeurs (including an enormous, highly beneficial propensity
for self-criticism), as compared to the social dysfunction, disintegration
and horrors wrought through 1,400 years of Islamic history, and continuing
in our own age.
Henceforward, in fact, all college professors requiring students to read
Edward Said's Orientalism should also require Ibn Warraq's 24-karat,
555-page tome. Students (and future leaders) might otherwise accept Said's
fundamentally flawed evaluation of the West--what Ibn Warraq with exacting
detail identifies as inadequate methods, incoherence, tendentious
interpretations--and amusing, but nevertheless exceedingly dangerous,
"historical howlers."
Said earns Ibn Warraq's credit for courage and self-criticism; he did note
the foolishness of Arab writers adhering to such "out-moded and discredited
ideas," as "the Jews never suffered..., the Holocaust is an obfuscatory
confection created by the Elders of Zion," or supporting convicted criminal,
French Holocaust denier Roger Garaudy.
But what irony Ibn Warraq also finds--that "self-examination for Arabs and
Muslims, and especially criticism of Islam in the West" has grown nearly
impossible thanks largely to the "pernicious influence of Edward Said's
Orientalism." The book "taught an entire generation of Arabs the art of
self-pity," by blaming all Arab and Muslim miseries on those "wicked
imperialists, racists and Zionists," but for whom Arabs and Muslims almost
universally claim their worlds would once again achieve ascendancy.
Alas, Said neglected the vast era of Islamic imperialism, Ibn Warraq
observes--from Mohammed's invention of the "one true faith" through the 17th
Century, with relapses when ever adequate wealth, time and war materiel were
available. Enriched with 20th century petrodollars, the Islamic world
renewed this effort--via the "modernized" Muslim Brotherhood strategy of
ancient Islamic supremacist jihad--and in the 21st century continues
aggressively pursuing financial jihad, particularly through "shari'a
finance."
Terror-advocating "experts" such as Pakistan's Taqi Usmani--a former
Pakistani Shari'a Court jurist-- set standards for Islamic banking, an MB
construct established solely to promote Islamic supremacy. Indeed, to date
Usmani remains on the shari'a advisory board of Saudi Arabia's
terror-funding Dallah al-Baraka Group; his Islamic California online
bookstore hawks works by U.S.-designated terrorists, and in July 2007 Usmani
advised Muslims to live peacefully in Great Britain only until they have the
strength to win battles and "establish the supremacy of Islam." Similarly,
Syrian Abdul Sattar Abu Ghuddah is a senior-level advisor to al-Baraka.
Said's Orientalism alone, as Ibn Warraq also correctly contends, "bludgeoned
into silence any criticism of Islam"--although Said was himself Christian,
and not a scholar of Islam--and added late-modern inadmissibility to the
1,400-year-old Islamic tradition embedded in Shari'a law. Namely, any Muslim
(or non-Muslim) criticizing Mohammed or Islam thereby becomes guilty of
blasphemy, which under the identical Islamic legal code warrants a death
sentence.
Ibn Warraq does not merely criticize Said, however. He also shows at great
length many of them innumerable benefits the West delivered to the Islamic
world. As Egyptian Nobel-prize-winning novelist Naguib Mahfouz stated,
"thanks to Napoleon's campaign" there, Egypt emerged from "centuries of
obscurantism" into modernity, including Western scholars' discoveries of
ancient pre-Islamic Egypt, which anchors Egypt's tourist industry today.
Said contended that "the Orient was viewed as something inviting French
interest, penetration, insemination--in short colonization.." Yet the
German, Russian, Italian and Western Jewish scholars whom Said didn't
mention (whose existence gutted his thesis) created the very fields of
Islamic, Middle Eastern and Arabic studies. They included Paul Kahle, Rudolf
Geyer, Hubert Grimme, Anton Baumstark, Carl Heinrich Becker, Carl
Brockelmann, S. P. Tolstov, Leone Caetani--and Abraham Geiger and his famed
protégé, Ignaz Goldziher.
Not only these Westerners, but almost all of Western history and thought,
from ancient Greece onward--were guided by what Ibn Warraq calls "three
tutelary guiding lights,"--rationalism (truth and objective knowledge);
universalism (openness to others' ideas); and self-criticism. He examines
these attributes at length, in classical antiquity, early Christianity,
Indian history and orientalists, archaeologists, and even the British Empire
and Lord George Nathaniel Curzon.
All, Ibn Warraq exactingly proves, pursued objective truth and knowledge,
were open to others and all humanity--and consistently criticized themselves
and their societies to effect improvements. In fact, India's rich Buddhist
traditions were little known until the 19th century, when Western scholars
recovered texts in Sanskrit, Tibetan and Pali, thereby discovering a host of
Indian monuments that were subsequently excavated and restored. Sir Jadunuth
Sarkar thus noted that "the greatest gift of the English, after universal
peace and modernization of society...--is the Renaissance which marked our
19th century." This was little wonder, since during 500 years of Muslim
jihad invasions, from 1000 through 1525, an estimated 80 million Hindus
perished, according to Indian scholar K.S. Lal.
In contrast, Ibn Warraq observes that Islamic orthodoxy has always been and
remains "suspicious of 'knowledge for its own sake'," since "Unfettered
intellectual inquiry is deemed dangerous to the faith." That would explain
the Arab Human Development Report of 2003 finding, Ibn Warraq writes, that
"the total number of books translated into Arabic in the last 1,000 years is
fewer than those translated in Spain in one year. Greece, with a population
of fewer than 11 million, translates five times as many books from abroad
into Greek annually as the 22 Arab countries combined, with a total
population of more than 300 million, translated into Arabic."
Yet Said blamed all the Middle East's ills on Westerners, conveniently
forgetting that Arab and Muslim pleas for assistance often brought Western
"imperialists" to the Middle East in the first place, as Ibn Warraq also
shows.
Efraim and Inari Karsh conclusively prove in Empires of the Sand: The
Struggle for Master in the Middle East, 1789-1923 (Harvard University Press,
1999), the Muslim world repeatedly sought help from the Western powers. Upon
Napoleon Bonaparte's 1789 conquest of Egypt, Ottoman Sultan Selim III
declared Jihad against the French--joining the infidel British and Russian
empires to protect his imperial territories from the French. In 1804, the
Ottomans requested and received territorial integrity guarantees from the
Russian and Austrian empires. In 1809, the Ottomans allied with the infidel
British after squabbling with Russia.
Britain and France opposed construction of the Suez Canal, which they feared
would violate the Ottoman Empire and hurt over-land trade routes to Asia. In
1866, though, the Sultan relented and conceded to Egypt's khedives. Then,
Khedive Ismail's bribery of Sultan Abdul Hamid II (to build his
mini-Egyptian empire) nearly bankrupted his protectorate. To lighten his
massive debts, Ismail in 1875 sold his Suez shares to Britain for roughly
their £4 million nominal value.
Despite even the ensuing riots, British Prime Minister William Ewart
Gladstone (1868-74; 1880-85; 1886 and 1892-94) did not heed repeated Ottoman
pleas that England rule Egypt. Only in 1882 did Gladstone agree--after the
Ottomans begged for a British naval squadron. Yet the British "imperialists"
tried mightily to return canal ownership to Egypt--which the Sultan
ironically refused.
Said arrived in his extreme state of vacuousness--contrary to the vast
evidence--by deriving his methods from the superficiality of French
"existentialists, structuralists, deconstructionists and postmodernists"
with "grandiose theories" supported by "flimsy history or empirical
foundations." Consequently, Said's Orientalism "gave those unable to think
for themselves a formula," which could apply "to every cultural phenomenon
without having to .conduct any real archival research requiring mastery of
languages, or research in the field.." Not surprisingly, Said's signature
work displays "all the laziness and arrogance of the man of letters who does
not have much time for empirical research, or.making sense of his results."
But again, Ibn Warraq does not simply complain. He defends the West, as the
title of this superb volume suggests, by offering many of the historical
comparison that Said offends worst by neglecting. Said tries the West on the
basis of a few examples, taken out of context, "judged and condemned as the
source of all evil." He excoriates the West for practicing slavery, despite
its abolition, for example.
However, Ibn Warraq shows that things were all together otherwise. "Black
Africa was a full and active partner in the slave trade," produced black
captives and was solely responsible for organizing and controlling their
sales. "African powers remained in control of the sale of the slaves as long
as the slave trade lasted."
Moreover, Arabs participated heavily in the black slave trade as
well--according to their own accounts, which Bin Warraq duly cites. The 10th
century Arab geographer al-Maqdisi termed Bantu-speaking East Africans and
Africans generally as "Zanj." Al-Maqdisi wrote, "they are people of black
color, flat noses, kinky hair and little understanding." Similarly, a 10th
century Islamic Persian treatise described black Africans as "people distant
from the standards of humanity," while a 13th century Persian observed, "the
ape is more teachable and more intelligent than the Zanji." And Islamic
social scientist, economist, historian and philosopher Ibn Khaldun (d. 1406)
wrote, "the Negro nations are, as a rule, submissive to slavery because
[they] have little [that is essentially] human and have attributes that are
quite similar to those of dumb animals, as we have stated."
In fact Muslim traders were far more culpable than Westerners. From the
1700s through the 1920s, Arab traders handled over 17 million black
slaves--including 1.5 million who died en route, many crossing the Sahara,
according to a 2004 comparative study by Olivier Petre-Grenouilleau. By
contrast, little more than 11 million crossed the Atlantic. Whereas the
Occident finally outlawed slavery, abolitionism "did not resonate in either
black Africa or the Islamic world." Indeed, Muslims regarded Western
abolitionists as "a threat to their very livelihood but also as an affront
to their religion," writes A. Azumah in Islam and Slavery. Thus Orientals
were the largest slave traders, as Ibn Warraq shows here, through collected
sources.
Even the supposedly "tolerant" Ottomans accepted slavery, "perpetuated [it]
by tradition and sanctioned [it] by religion" and lacked an abolitionist
movement, according to Ehud Toledano and Turkish historian Y.H. Erdem
(again, carefully cited).
The Ottomans also engaged in a huge enterprise manufacturing and trading
eunuchs--males usually castrated during boyhood. In the Muslim
Mediterranean--southern Europe, North Africa and the Near East including all
of the Ottoman Empire at its largest point--"large harems [maintained] by
the upper classes greatly stimulated demand for males who could be trusted
with large numbers of nubile women." Eunuchs survived "total removal of
testicles and penis" that caused extensive hemorrhaging and death rates of
90% or more in the sub-Saharan west and west-central Africa, according to
Jan Hogendorn's 1999 essay, "The Hideous Trade."
Said includes none of these historically significant factors in Orientalism,
much less any others of his works.
Ibn Warraq includes hundreds more such nuggets in this work. Together, these
scrupulously documented historical facts render Defending the West so
important that every self-respecting librarian in the world (especially
those in Middle East studies) should grace their shelves with several
copies.
Indeed, the public should do everything possible to quickly circulate
100,000 copies of this extraordinary book quickly to educators, political
leaders and all others in roles critical to ideological and military
self-defense. Then, they should encourage millions more readers to circulate
a second 100,000 copies--and speedily wear them out from reading.
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID=97CCC078-DF30-4A61-9BB4-D017510779CC
princeandy
"DoD" <danski...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:6piuj.1267$lU5...@newsread1.mlpsca01.us.to.verio.net...
> For the last quarter century, many political leaders and candidates have
> been overly swayed by the willful misinterpretation of Western history
> instigated by Columbia University's infamous late professor, Edward Said.
As
> a bromide, Western civilization could greatly benefit if the current crop
of
> presidential hopefuls would immediately read Ibn Warraq's Defending the
> West: A Critique of Edward Said's Orientalism (Prometheus, 2007).
>
> Besides clearly identifying the magnitude of the damage Said and his
> mindless sycophants have done, the book will also provide an instant
> curative for foolish ideas so widely generated by Islamic dyspepsia. At
long
> last, Western politicians have a yardstick by which to measure our
cultural
> and political grandeurs (including an enormous, highly beneficial
propensity
> for self-criticism), as compared to the social dysfunction, disintegration
> and horrors wrought through 1,400 years of Islamic history, and continuing
> in our own age.
Not much about jewish historical cover ups on the immense suffering inflitef
on Europe for their political gains and purposes as it is today.
http://jews-for-allah.org/Jews-not-for-Judaism/communism/jewsforcommunism.htm
Hardly any top level
> >communist war criminals of the Soviet Union
> >and its collaborators throughout Europe have
> >been brought to trial, whereas their socialist
> >brethren and partners in crime, the German
> >Nazis, have been hunted down relentlessly.
Yes a remarkable feat achieved by aggrandisement of the German run holocaust
against jews, as against a jewish run holocaust/s against christians.
Polish massacre by Jews
Establishment media or universities today, the mass murder of the Polish
Catholics at the hands of the Jewish Communists, is never raised. Instead, a
minor attack on Jews by Polish peasants enraged at the role of Jews in
Communist terror, which occurred in July, 1946 at Kielce and which has come
to be called the "Kielce pogrom" will be the centerpiece of the "discussion.
" The motivation for the attack is not usually mentioned. Rather, the
Catholic peasantry are painted in terms of "fiendish bigots" whose "blind,
irrational hate" for the "poor, persecuted Jews" resulted in "yet another
martyrdom of God's Chosen."
>
> http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0%2C7340%2CL-3342999%2C00.html
>
> Sever Plocker - Stalin's Jews
>
> We mustn't forget that some of greatest murderers of modern times were
> Jewish
>
> Published: 12.21.06, 23:35 / Israel Opinion
>
> In 1934, according to published statistics, 38.5 percent of those
> holding the most senior posts in the Soviet security apparatuses were of
> Jewish origin. ... In a fascinating lecture at a Tel Aviv University
> convention this week, Dr. Halfin described the waves of soviet terror as a
> "carnival of mass murder," "fantasy of purges", and "essianism of evil."
> -------------------
>
> Meanwhile,
> The "Jewish world" had a goal of "bringing the Third Reich to its knees",
> in 1933:
>
>
> "Black reconstructs in depressing detail the (Jewish world's) strident
> debates and acrimonious struggles ...while pursuing the increasingly
> unrealistic goal of bringing the Third Reich to its knees. - A.J.
Sherman,
> New York Times
>
>
>
> The Transfer Agreement is Edwin Black's compelling, award-winning story of
a
> negotiated arrangement in 1933 between Zionist organizations and the Nazis
> to transfer some 50,000 Jews, and $100 million of their assets, to Jewish
> Palestine in exchange for stopping the worldwide Jewish-led boycott
> threatening to topple the Hitler regime in its first year.
>
>
>
> Edwin Black is the award-winning, New York Times and international
> bestselling investigative author of 56 bestselling editions in 14
languages
> in 61 countries, as well as scores of newspaper and magazine articles in
the
> leading publications of the United States, Europe and Israel.
>
>
> http://www.edwinblack.com/
>
> Edward Black ' "The Transfer Agreement."
>
> The boycott of German goods was causing great hardship for the German
> people, but Jews also had to face the possibility of bloody reprisals
> against German Jews, so an agreement [the Haavara Agreement] was made
> between Hitler's government and the Zionists.
>
> The Germans would allow Jews to pay a fee of 15,000 marks to Germany and
> another 15,000 marks to the British colonial government to emigrate to
> Palestine. In return, the Zionists would break the Jewish boycott.
>
> For six years, from 1933 to 1939, German Jews emigrated to Palestine
through
> this arrangement. Likewise, German goods found markets, and oranges and
> other agricultural products found their way from Palestine to Germany.
>
>
> Edwin Black's research is striking in its dimension and scope. The vast
> uncovering of source material and its extensive use are almost
overwhelming.
> He succeeds in crystallizing the various aspects of an almost worldwide
> problem into fluid and cohesive analysis. -
> Yoav Gelber, Yad Vashem, Israel Holocaust Memorial
> ------------------------
>
>
> http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0%2C7340%2CL-3342999%2C00.html
>
> Sever Plocker
>
> Stalin's Jews
>
> We mustn't forget that some of greatest murderers of modern times were
> Jewish
>
> Published: 12.21.06, 23:35 / Israel Opinion
>
> Here's a particularly forlorn historical date: Almost 90 years ago,
between
> the 19th and 20th of December 1917, in the midst of the Bolshevik
revolution
> and civil war, Lenin signed a decree calling for the establishment of The
> All-Russian Extraordinary Commission for Combating Counter-Revolution and
> Sabotage, also known as Cheka.
>
> Within a short period of time, Cheka became the largest and cruelest state
> security organization. Its organizational structure was changed every few
> years, as were its names: From Cheka to GPU, later to NKVD, and later to
> KGB.
>
> We cannot know with certainty the number of deaths Cheka was responsible
for
> in its various manifestations, but the number is surely at least 20
million,
> including victims of the forced
> collectivization, the hunger, large purges, expulsions, banishments,
> executions, and mass death at Gulags.
>
> Whole population strata were eliminated: Independent farmers, ethnic
> minorities, members of the bourgeoisie, senior officers,
> intellectuals, artists, labor movement activists, "opposition members" who
> were defined completely randomly, and countless members of the Communist
> party itself.
>
> In his new, highly praised book "The War of the World, "Historian Niall
> Ferguson writes that no revolution in the history of mankind devoured its
> children with the same unrestrained appetite as did the Soviet revolution.
> In his book on the Stalinist purges, Tel Aviv University's Dr. Igal Halfin
> writes that Stalinist violence was unique in that it was directed
> internally.
>
> Lenin, Stalin, and their successors could not have carried out their deeds
> without wide-scale cooperation of disciplined "terror officials," cruel
> interrogators, snitches, executioners, guards, judges, perverts, and many
> bleeding hearts who were members of the progressive Western Left and were
> deceived by the Soviet regime of horror and even provided it with a kosher
> certificate.
>
> All these things are well-known to some extent or another, even though the
> former Soviet Union's archives have not yet been fully opened to the
public.
> But who knows about this? Within Russia itself, very few people have been
> brought to justice for their crimes in the NKVD's and KGB's service. The
> Russian public discourse today completely ignores the question of "How
could
> it have happened to us?" As opposed to Eastern European nations, the
> Russians did not settle the score
> with their Stalinist past.
>
> And us, the Jews? An Israeli student finishes high school without ever
> hearing the name "Genrikh Yagoda," the greatest Jewish murderer of the
20th
> Century, the GPU's deputy commander and the founder and commander
> of the NKVD. Yagoda diligently implemented Stalin's collectivization
orders
> and is responsible for the deaths of at least 10 million people. His
Jewish
> deputies established and managed the Gulag system. After Stalin no longer
> viewed him favorably, Yagoda was demoted and executed, and was replaced as
> chief hangman in 1936 by Yezhov, the
> "bloodthirsty dwarf."
>
> Yezhov was not Jewish but was blessed with an active Jewish wife. In his
> Book "Stalin: Court of the Red Star", Jewish historian Sebag Montefiore
> writes that during the darkest period of terror, when the Communist
killing
> machine worked in full force, Stalin was surrounded
> by beautiful, young Jewish women.
>
> Stalin's close associates and loyalists included member of the Central
> Committee and Politburo Lazar Kaganovich. Montefiore characterizes him
> as the "first Stalinist" and adds that those starving to death in
> Ukraine, an unparalleled tragedy in the history of human kind aside from
the
> Nazi horrors and Mao's terror in China, did not move Kaganovich.
>
> Many Jews sold their soul to the devil of the Communist revolution and
have
> blood on their hands for eternity. We'll mention just one more: Leonid
> Reichman, head of the NKVD's special department and the organization's
chief
> interrogator, who was a particularly cruel sadist.
>
> In 1934, according to published statistics, 38.5 percent of those
> holding the most senior posts in the Soviet security apparatuses were of
> Jewish origin. They too, of course, were gradually eliminated in the next
> purges. In a fascinating lecture at a Tel Aviv University convention this
> week, Dr. Halfin described the waves of soviet terror as a "carnival of
mass
> murder," "fantasy of purges", and "essianism of evil." Turns out that Jews
> too, when they become captivated by messianic ideology, can become great
> murderers, among the greatest
> known by modern history.
>
> The Jews active in official communist terror apparatuses (In the
> Soviet Union and abroad) and who at times led them, did not do this,
> obviously, as Jews, but rather, as Stalinists, communists, and "Soviet
> people." Therefore, we find it easy to ignore their origin and "play
dumb":
> What do we have to do with them? But let's not forget them. My
> own view is different. I find it unacceptable that a person will be
> considered a member of the Jewish people when he does great things, but
not
> considered part of our people when he does amazingly despicable things.
>
> Even if we deny it, we cannot escape the Jewishness of "our hangmen," who
> served the Red Terror with loyalty and dedication from its establishment.
> After all, others will always remind us of their origin.
>
>
>
>
>
In article <1189752111.5...@o80g2000hse.googlegroups.com>,
r9htz...@mangusta.e4ward.com says...
>
>
> A chapter taken from When Victims Rule: A Critique of
> Jewish Pre-Eminence in America
http://www.lucasgray.com/video/peacetrain.html
http://thirdworldtraveler.com/Israel/IsraelsTortureBan.html
Israel is the only state in modern times that made it legal.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2347953151064740545&q=Palestine&hl=en
"ElParedon" <ser...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:qrV8j.43432$K27....@bignews6.bellsouth.net...
> w w w . h a a r e t z . c o m
> Last update - 01:18 15/06/2007
> The twilight zone / 'Now you are paralyzed, as we
> promised'
> By Gideon Levy
>
> "We have to make you do a little sports," the Shin Bet
> interrogator said, launching four successive days of
> questioning accompanied by brutal physical torture.
> The result: Luwaii Ashqar can no longer stand on his
> feet. He sits in his wheelchair, dressed in a
> fashionable quasi-military suit, super-elegant, new
> Caterpillar-brand shoes on his paralyzed feet.
>
> "I love this color," he says about his uniform. "It's
> the color of the soldiers who came to arrest me for
> the interrogation that did all this to me."
>
> His smile is captivating, his Hebrew rich and
> incisive. He is a young man whose world fell apart. He
> entered prison sound of body and mind and emerged a
> broken man. For four days and four nights nonstop, he
> says, he was interrogated and subjected to torture of
> the most brutal kind. The result is the person we see
> before us in the wheelchair, in the elegant home high
> in the village of Saida, north of Tul Karm, which was
> placed at his disposal by a friend after he was
> released from Israeli prison a month ago.
>
> Was there a judgment by the High Court of Justice?
> There was. It banned precisely the types of torture he
> underwent: the "banana posture," the "shabah" (body
> stretching with hands tied to a chair), "invisible"
> blows and the "frog posture" (being forced to stand
> for hours on the toes in a crouching position) - all
> the way to a vicious kick to his chest that bent his
> body backward while he was tied to a chair with his
> arms and legs, and which was the probable cause of the
> partial paralysis of his legs.
>
> Throwing up with the vomit entering his nostrils,
> losing consciousness and being given only saltwater to
> drink, relieving himself in his pants, not sleeping or
> resting - all of that for four consecutive days and
> nights.
>
> What does the interrogator Maimon tell his children
> when he goes home? What do Eldad and Sagiv tell their
> wives about their daily labors before they turn in?
> That they tortured another helpless prisoner until
> they turned him into a cripple? That they beat this
> charming young man brutally and that at the end of the
> interrogation he was tried for only marginal offenses?
> And where is the Supreme Court, which in 1999
> prohibited precisely the chain of torture that Luwaii
> Sati Ashqar, 30, who was married three years ago,
> underwent in the Kishon detention facility?
>
> Ashqar is not alone. The Public Committee Against
> Torture in Israel has just issued a new report
> containing the testimonies of nine torture victims
> (English version: http://www.stoptorture.org.il/eng/
> ). As the authors of the shocking report say, the
> testimonies "paint a dismal picture in which can be
> discerned various categories of secret-keeping
> collaborators, who, in keeping silent, protect the
> [Shin Bet] system of torture." ...
>
> On the wall is a picture, a fine drawing of a kneeling
> prisoner, his head between his knees. The caption: "I
> am in the darkness of the prison, living on your
> memory. I am far from you, lying in my bed, my spirit
> cruising your land all night. God will release all the
> prisoners, the strong will triumph."
>
> Ashqar is sitting in his wheelchair, his left leg
> completely enclosed in a cast, his right leg shaking
> nonstop. When he tries to get up and lean on his
> crutches, he threatens to topple over. "I was married
> in 2004, and I started to work in aluminum in the
> village to provide for my new household. On April 22,
> 2005, at 2:30 A.M., the soldiers came and started to
> throw grenades and to shout for everyone in the house
> to go outside. They blindfolded me with whatever they
> use and handcuffed me. I was taken in a jeep to prison
> and I was examined by an army doctor. He looked over
> my body - no operations, doesn't take medication, no
> illnesses. Again I was taken in a military jeep, this
> time to Kishon. 'Yehuda, incoming,' the warder said
> and transferred me to the interrogation office. They
> opened my eyes: Good morning. An excellent morning.
> One of the interrogators, Maimon, told me: I am
> responsible for your file. What file? The one you were
> arrested for. This is the major, and this tall guy is
> the colonel, this is Sagiv and this is Eldad. Eight
> interrogators.
>
> "They said: We have no time, it will soon be our
> Passover and you have to finish everything in a short
> time. Finish what? You have to tell us what you have.
> I don't have anything to tell you. I begged. They
> said: We know all that nonsense. We are talking about
> security. Plans for terrorist attacks at Passover. I
> said: I don't understand what you are talking about.
> They said: The suicide bomber was at your place. What
> suicide bomber?
>
> "After two hours of talking they said to me: If you
> don't give everything you have, we will have to take
> it by a different way. What is the different way? Did
> you hear of a military interrogation? You might leave
> here with your body battered or crippled. I was taken
> to a military interrogation. Here you pray to God that
> you will die, they said, but we won't give you that.
> We will let you die only after you spill out what we
> are looking for. He gave me a prison uniform and I
> told him that if I was going to die, I preferred my
> own clothes.
>
> "They sat me down on a square chair without a back,
> which was attached to the floor and had sharp metal
> ends [sticking up]. My legs were tied to the legs of
> the chair with metal cuffs and my hands were tied
> behind my back with metal cuffs. One interrogator sat
> behind me and the other in front of me. The
> interrogator opposite me said: We have to give you a
> little sports, so you will be able to hold out in the
> military interrogation. The sports was that they
> pushed me backward by the chest, a backward
> somersault, and I would hold myself so my bones would
> not break. After a minute or two I would automatically
> fall on the floor, but the interrogator behind me
> would put his foot on my chest and press, and the
> interrogator in front would grab my hands and pull and
> pull behind the chair. They kept on like that until I
> don't know what happened to me, heat in every part of
> my body, puking everything I had in my stomach and it
> would go into my nostrils. I would wake up when they
> poured water on my face. When I woke up, we went back
> to the same situation. It went on like this 15-20
> times an hour.
>
> "After that they made me crouch on my toes, not
> letting me lean on the back of my foot. I was in that
> position for 40-50 minutes, maybe an hour - that was
> my estimate - until I felt my soles swelling and they
> turned blue and there was tremendous pain. After that,
> stand up, and they tied my hands and pressed as hard
> as they could on the metal handcuffs until the metal
> dug into my hand. Here are the signs, you can still
> see them. Because of the pressure, the key of the
> handcuffs didn't always work and they would bring huge
> metal scissors, like they use in construction, and
> tear off the handcuffs and then bring new ones, to go
> on. The color of my hands changed to blue, and when
> they opened [the handcuffs] my hands shook. The
> interrogator stood on the table and pulled me with a
> chain of handcuffs. When I fell, they pulled me by the
> hair.
>
> "I would cry, beg, shout, and they came back to me
> with words, that it was impossible to stop, only after
> you start talking about what we want. I said to them:
> Tell me what you want. Tell me I am responsible for
> the attack on the Pentagon, I am ready to confess to
> everything, just tell me what. I want to end this
> death."
>
> "There were always four interrogators and two rotated
> every four hours, day and night. The new ones would
> tell me they were stronger than the ones before, that
> the ones before were a joke, we are the strong ones.
> And that was true. The new ones tied me and started to
> beat me all over my body. One interrogator pressed
> hard on my testicles and on my feet with his shoes.
> When they slapped me and I tried to pull back, the
> major would say: What are you doing? If you move back,
> I will break your nose, and if you move forward I will
> rip off your ear. Be strong and take it sportingly,
> because you are a soldier and a fighter. They broke
> this tooth."
>
> Ashqar suddenly stops talking. He turns pale and his
> face is covered with beads of perspiration. His
> father, Sati, quickly wipes his face with a damp
> cloth. "Every time I try to remember I get dizzy, even
> when I am alone." Quiet descends in the room. It will
> take Ashqar another few minutes to pull himself
> together.
>
> "I was taken into detention on Friday morning, and
> that was the last light of day I saw before the
> interrogation. I came out for the first time on Monday
> night or before dawn on Tuesday morning. On those long
> days I sat in a chair and did not even go to the
> toilet. So you won't kill yourself, they said. I
> urinated in my clothes, and a terrible stench started.
> For four days I didn't eat anything. They told me: If
> we give you something to eat, something will happen to
> your stomach and your intestines. Maybe they will
> explode under the pressure of the food when we push
> you backward. You will drink only half a cup of
> saltwater. That is what they gave me every time after
> they bent me and I vomited. Why with salt? I asked.
> Give me without salt. No, so nothing will happen in
> your stomach and intestines. I would drink it and
> vomit.
>
> "On Monday evening, they told me that five witnesses
> had testified that Luwaii had transported a wanted
> man. I told them that there was a famous wanted man
> named Luwaii Sadi, but my name is Luwaii Sati, and
> maybe they had mixed us up. He said to me: Are you
> saying the Shin Bet is that stupid? We know exactly
> what we're doing, and it is all correct. I said: Put
> me on trial for whatever you want. He said: Ya'allah,
> sports again. He pushes me backward in the chair. I
> will help you become a story in Palestinian history.
> He is talking to me and my head is down below. He
> pushes strongly with his leg and presses on my chest.
> I felt something like an explosion in my body. Like
> something broke. After that I don't know what
> happened. I woke up and they were pouring water on my
> face. Again they pushed me backward and again I
> fainted.
>
> "He said to me: Stand on your feet. I felt that my
> legs were cold, like pins and needles in the legs. I
> said: I can't. He said: Now you are paralyzed. I said:
> I guess I am. He said: That is what we promised you
> and that is what you want."
>
>
> "I discovered I had a wound in the back and it was
> bleeding - because of the sharp chair - and one of my
> bones was protruding. Because of the blood and because
> of the urine of four days there was such a stench that
> the interrogator could not come close to me. He said:
> Why do you stink like that? I told him: That is your
> perfume. A warder took me to the shower and threw me
> on the floor and said to me: Ya'allah, you have two
> minutes to shower. I looked at the faucet up above and
> I could not reach it. I pulled down my pants and the
> underpants stayed in place. I tried to pull them down
> - I could do it in front but behind it was stuck to my
> back. The two minutes went by and the warder started
> to pound on the door. Time's up. I told him: Give me
> another two minutes, I can't reach the faucet. He came
> in and asked: What do you have on your back? I said: I
> don't know.
>
> "He called the interrogator and said: Come and see the
> prisoner. The interrogator came and asked: What do you
> have, Luwaii? I said: I don't know what I have on my
> back, I can't pull the underpants down and I can't
> reach the faucet. He said: Ya'allah, we will go up and
> finish the story and take you to the doctor.
>
> "Two warders took me in a Prisons Service vehicle to
> Rambam [Medical Center in Haifa]. In emergency, my
> hands and feet were tied and a Russian doctor asked
> me: What hurts you? I told him: My whole body hurts
> from the interrogation. The Druze warder said: Shut
> up. The doctor turned me on the side and stuck a
> finger into my ass. I asked him: What are you doing?
> He said: I am checking whether you have hemorrhoids.
> Why didn't you ask me first? I am a professional, he
> said. I said: What about the wound on the back? He put
> ointment there and dressed it. After 10 minutes I was
> taken back to interrogation. Again I was tied to the
> square chair. The bandage fell off and the wound
> started to bleed again. After that, they stopped the
> military interrogation."
>
>
> He was interrogated for another two months, but
> without physical torture. He was told that his wife
> had been arrested because of him - a complete
> fabrication - and he was given a lie detector test
> ("the falsehoods machine," in his Hebrew). For two
> weeks he was placed in a cell with stool pigeons. In
> the end, he was indicted on only two counts, in
> Prosecution File 2157/05: assisting a wanted person to
> hide and using a forged document. No ticking and no
> bomb. Ashqar was sentenced to 26 months in prison and
> was released a month ago. In the meantime, his younger
> brother, Osaimar, disappeared. Soldiers came to the
> house looking for him, but he was not there. His
> family has not seen him since: He told them that he
> was not willing to undergo what Luwaii did.
>
> Luwaii is now looking for a way to get medical
> treatment in Israel or abroad, after his physician
> told him that he would not be able to get
> rehabilitation in the West Bank. His lawyer told him
> that the Shin Bet will almost certainly prevent him
> from going anywhere.
>
> ---
>
> This is the response received by Haaretz from the Shin
> Bet:
>
> Luwaii Ashqar was arrested in April 2005, after
> serious suspicions were raised against him concerning
> his involvement in terrorism, including possession of
> weapons and assistance to wanted individuals - terror
> activists from Islamic Jihad.
>
> One of the suspicions was that he had provided
> accommodation, ahead of a terrorist act, for Sirhan
> Sarhan, the perpetrator of the attack in Kibbutz
> Metzer, who murdered Revital Ohayon and her two
> children, Noam and Matan, of blessed memory.
>
> The suspect was tried and convicted in a plea bargain,
> and sentenced to 14 months in prison and another 14
> months in prison stemming from a pending conditional
> sentence, so that all told he was sentenced to 26
> months in prison. In addition, he received a 28-month
> suspended sentence.
>
> His interrogation was carried out according to the
> rules and directives, with constant review of the
> interrogation process.
>
> During the interrogation, the above-named put forward
> medical complaints, which were examined and treated by
> the appropriate medical authorities, including an
> examination he underwent in hospital.
>
> It should be noted that during the interrogation he
> did not cite medical complaints of the same
> seriousness as those mentioned in the query.
>
> Complaints relating to his interrogation, from, among
> other sources, the Committee Against Torture and the
> Red Cross, were referred to the State Prosecutor's
> Office for examination, which ordered an examination
> by the Ombudsman of Interogees' Complaints.
>
> The examination of the complaints did not turn up any
> excesses in the interrogation, and in the wake of
> this, the official in charge of the OIC in the State
> Prosecutor's Office decided to close the examination
> file.
>
> http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/871239.html
>
>
> Chapter 11
> THE JEWISH COSMOLOGY OF VICTIMHOOD (Part 1)
>
> "I have frequently had hotheaded romantics assume that our family fled
> Russia to escape persecution. They seem to think that the only way we
> got out was by jumping from ice flow to ice floe across the Dnieper
> River, with bloodhoods and the entire Red Army in hot pursuit. No such
> thing. We were not persecuted and we left in a quite legal manner with
> no more trouble than one would expect from any bureaucracy, including
> our own. If that's disappointing, so be it." Isaac Asimov, I. Asimov.
> A Memoir. 1994, p. 19
>
> Ask any non-Jewish American what his or her personal link is to the
> Roman era, the Dark Ages, the Middle Ages, and other epics of human
> history and he will tell you: nothing. He knows nothing about it. And
> he doesn't care. For such a late twentieth century American to reflect
> on his own roots back to, say, medievalism, is to look with the naked
> eye for Mars: it is a vague dot, reputed by others to exist, in the
> remotest distance. Indistinct. Unfathomable. Something eternally
> elusive, lost forever.
yeah and that explains alot about united states citizens' insanity.
> Few Americans can trace their family history more than a few
> generations, if that. Throughout anyone's own ancestral lineage,
> however, going back deeply into time, there obviously exists their own
> share of participants -- as both perpetrators and victims -- in great
> and minor wars, massacres, invasions, famines, epidemics, and other
> disasters of every kind. Presuming five procreative generations per
> century, exponentially, any human being alive today can theoretically
> claim direct genetic lineage to over a thousand ancestors back to
> 1800, over 37,000 people to 1700, over a million back to the year
> 1600, and over a staggering billion human beings back to 1400 (thirty
> generations). Whatever the mathematically realistic number, (and
> Jewish history claims 4,000 years) the deeper we go back into history,
> the more we must consider the veritable Milky Way of humanity that
> preceded us in direct ancestral lineage; people of every imaginable
> sort, and they all knew well the melancholic chords of human
> suffering, sometimes subtly, sometimes brutally. Every single one of
> them.
>
> Today's Americans of French, British, Italian or other European
> descent find themselves today lumped together in the generic "white"
> American community. Their respective ancestries are stirred together,
> gone. Their European origins mean little to them; they are homogenized
> in the New World, their identities now expressed -- for better or
> worse -- in the icons of George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, Billy the
> Kid, Babe Ruth, the hallowed Constitution, even McDonald's hamburgers,
> or other superficial national icons that ancestrally have nothing
> directly to do with them.
i once had a chat with two americans in an online game. they explained
to me that "america" is much scarier than we foreigners realize. To sum
it up they said it is like a horror movie hidden under disneyland.
> The typical American's alienation, disinterest, and lack of connection
> to distant history is not characteristic of modern Jews. On the
> contrary. A stone thrown in spite through a Jewish window in Italy in
> the fourteenth century is a stone thrown into Jewish hearts today. The
> actions against Jews by desperate thugs in Poland in the eighteenth
> century are dumped on Gentile doorsteps in our time by Jews who are
> still grieving, still embittered, still seeking redress. And when we
> turn, in more recent history, to the bestial deeds of Adolf Hitler to
> conquer the world, we find that Jews have pulled tightly in a circle
> to proclaim that everything sinister in the whole world malevolently
> labors against them, and them only.
>
> Ultimately, it is a central article of modern Jewish faith --
> reflecting both secular and religious attitudes, formed and hardened
> over the ages -- that to be Jewish is to be always maltreated for
> innocence by others. Or, perhaps more correctly to Jewish eyes, as
> part of this innocence, being Jewish is to be a victim for the crime
> of being superior to their persecutors. This claim to superiority was
> originally religiously based, as God's "Chosen People" of Old
> Testament tradition. And this Jewish preoccupation -- as being victims
> of their self-presumed superiority -- has been passed down,
> religiously, over the ages (traditionally epitomized in Jewish
> pilgrimage to Jerusalem's Wailing Wall to bemoan their communal fate,
> manifest also in the likes of the volume Sefer Yosifon, anonymously
> compiled in the tenth century as a litany of Jewish complaints and
> miseries). In the aftermath of Hitler's atrocities against Jews during
> World War II, this world-view has come to define, more tightly than
> any other aspect of Jewish tradition -- and now highly politicized --
> modern Jewish self-identity.
>
> But is this true? From the evidence we have already seen, are Jews
> correctly depicted as history's consummate, incomparable, and innocent
> victims? Have Jews pre-eminently and collectively suffered more than
> all other human beings, "victims of centuries of persecution and
> bigotry?" [UROFSKY, M., 1978, p. 378] And for no reason?
>
> Here's a typical view of the Eastern European Jewish past, by Judith
> Arcana, who discusses the roots of Jewish American poet Grace Paley's
> family to the Jews of Russia: "One of Isaac's brothers, Russya, was
> killed in a workers demonstration in 1905 ... In the wake of that
> death, probably spurred by the retaliatory wave of pogroms, the family
> decided to leave Russia. Knowing the unpredictability of royal whim,
> Natasha Gutseit, Isaac's widowed mother, sent the young couple to
> America before the czar could change his mind and snatch them back
> again." [ARCANA, J., 1993, p. 10] Here Arcana, who omits the relevance
> of Jewish socialist agitation in Russia as a factor in their
> "persecution" [Elsewhere she notes that even both Paley's parents were
> socialists, enemies of the Tsarist regime -- p. 9], speculates that
> the Russian czar would have interest in "snatching" Jews back to
> Russia.
>
> In the American context, "one commonly finds a sentence like this in
> many [Jewish] books or articles," says Joshua Rothenberg, "... 'Jews
> came to the shores of this country from the ghettos of the shtetlekh
> [Eastern European Jewish villages] as a result of the pogroms.' Each
> phrase in this sentence is untrue or oversimplified to the point of
> untruth. There were no ghettos in 19th century Eastern Europe (except
> in the metaphysical sense) ... And the pogroms were not the principal
> reason for emigration: proportionately more Jews came to the United
> States from Austrian-ruled Galicia -- where there were no pogroms --
> than from Tsarist Russia." [ROTHENBERG, p. 3]
>
> "It has been discovered," says Henry Feingold, "that religious
> persecution, even its physical manifestations of pogroms, rarely
> furnishes sufficient impetus for Jews to uproot themselves. Moreover,
> it cannot account for the thousands of Jews who chose to leave areas
> relatively free of religious persecution ... [FEINGOLD, p. 60] ...
> Historians have taken a closer look at the early acculturation process
> and have discovered that the highly touted ability of the Jewish
> family to withstand the stresses of transplantation have been
> overstated. New studies on Jewish vice and crime and criminality and
> the discovery of a relatively high divorce and desertion rate among
> immigrant Jews present a picture of a community paying a dear price
> for establishing itself." [FEINGOLD, p. 61]
>
> "The lachrymorose recollection of the shtetl, which are still with
> us," says Daniel Bell, "fail to recall its narrowness of mind, its
> cruelty, especially to schoolchildren (to whom a whole series of
> memoirs, such as Solomon Ben Maimon's, testify), and its invidious
> stratification." [BELL, Reflections, p. 318] Little remembered is this
> oppression of Jews by Jews. "Prior to World War I," adds Rothenburg,
> "the Kehilah [Jewish governing bodies] were ruled, in most cases, by
> an oligarchy of the rich and the [Jewish] clergy. Their excesses,
> especially in the area of indirect taxation (kosher meat, etc.) and
> the silencing of the protesting voices of the poor, are well-known and
> documented. The Kehilahs remained a source of bitter complaint for the
> majority of the Jewish population, which had no say in the conduct of
> their own community affairs." [ROTHENBURG, p. 5]
>
> continued
>
http://newsfromthewest.blogspot.com/2007/09/chapter-11-jewish-cosmology-of.html
>
>
continuing:
...American Jews today hold dear many nostalgic "Fiddler on the Roof"-
type myths about their Eastern European ancestors. As, however, Jewish
author Ivan Kalmar notes
"A stalwart Jewish peasant, with a native wit and a naive religiosity,
ever sturdy in the face of unending adversity, he is the epitome of
Jewish nostalgia ... The Fiddler is so much part of the way we
think of our Jewish background ... The Fiddler image has some
basis in reality, but it is also very much part of a nostalgic
reconstruction of our past, an example of what anthropologists
call 'invention of tradition' ... Jewish authors [like Sholem
Aleichem, creator of Fiddler on the Roof] tried to create
stereotypes of the Jews that would identity them with less
wealthy groups who were looked at more favourably by the
greater society. Sholom Aleichem's Tevye [hero of Fiddler
on the Roof] is very much a Ukrainian peasant. To counter
the idea of the Jew as a 'parasite,' Sholom Aleichem presents
Tevye as a dairy farmer, who sells not the Gentile peasant's
products but his own. North American Jews have
enthusiastically accepted the validity of Sholom Aleichem's
Tevye as a metaphor for the Eastern European Jew of old ...
Where finally Tevye finally shows unique character, he
turns out to be a modern Jew. Where he is being a 'typical,'
folksy, traditional East European Jew, he resembles the
romanticized Ukrainian peasant ... Of course, there were
in reality Jewish peasants like Tevye, but compared to the
Slavs, the percentage of Jews who farmed was miniscule."
[KALMER, I., quoted by PRYTULAK, L., UKRAINIAN
ARCHIVES]
"Having ... turned their backs on Poland," notes Jewish scholar Victor
Seidler about modern Jewish perceptions of Eastern European heritage,
"it can be difficult for the second generation [of Jews in America] to
recognize just how Polish their parents were. Things we learned to think
of as 'Jewish' turn out to be Polish." [SEIDLER, V.J., 2000, p. 74]
"Indeed," notes George Mosse, "when the first German-Jewish painter,
Mortiz Oppenheim, painted scenes from the ghetto shortly after
emancipation, it was transformed, as we have seen, into a community
permeated with German middle-class values." [MOSSE, G., 1985, p. 80]
Jewish author Howard Jacobson notes Jewish historic myth-making at an
exhibition of photographs of Eastern European Jews at the University of
Judaism in Los Angeles. Particularly troubling to him was the depiction
of the stereotypically "studious Jew":
"Something is wrong with this exhibition. Something is wrong with
the way we modern Jews idealize a past we wouldn't touch with a
barge-pole if it were offered us again ... Why is Jewish study always
made to look so soulful in these sorts of photographs, so unrelieved,
so unvarious, so fucking miserable and desolating? What is it about
Jewish books that make absorption in them such an invariably
heart-rendering business? What a sell! How have the Jews done it,
how have we persuaded ourselves, but gentiles as well, that anguish
and lamentation and self-abnegation and bodilessness and pathos
attach inalterably and exclusively to our studies? You don't see
[St. Thomas] Aquinas looking into a book like that." [JACOBSON, H.,
1995, p. 192-193]
The distinguished Jewish historian, Salo Baron, of Columbia University,
whose twelve-volume Social and Religious History of the Jews is the most
extensive Jewish history by a single author in existence, argued a view
that, post-Holocaust, has been swept to the wayside by modern Jewish
discourse. His view was that Jewish suffering in the European Middle
Ages, and throughout history, has been exaggerated. That is, that the
Jews of Europe, as a group, in comparison to their Christian neighbors,
actually had a better life in the Middle Ages, to the 20th century. For
all the claims of massacres and pogroms, according to surviving
documents, the Jewish population actually grew more rapidly than the
Gentiles around them. [LIBERLES, p. 42] This accelerated in later
centuries. "The two and a half centuries from 1660 to 1914," says Baron,
"the Jewish population grew numerically some fifteen times ... while
mankind at-large increased by only 250 per cent, Europe by 350 per cent
..." [BARON, H and J.H., p. 50] This thesis, addressing later years, is
supported by a non-Jewish scholar of the Ukraine, Orest Subtleny:
"Throughout the nineteenth century, especially in its latter part, the
Jews experienced a tremendous population rise. Between 1820 and
1880, while the general population of the [Russian] empire rose by
87%, the number of Jews increased by 150%. On the Right Bank,
this rise was even more dramatic: between 1844 and 1913 the number
of its inhabitants rose by 265% while the Jewish population increased
by 844%! Religious sanctions of large families, less exposure to
famines, war, and epidemics, and a low mortality rate because of
communal self-help and the availability of doctors largely accounted
for this extraordinary increase." [SUBTLENY, p. 276]
Salo Baron argued that his people, the Jews, were so privileged,
relative to non-Jews throughout the European Middle Ages, that with the
coming of the Enlightenment era "emancipation" and "equality" amounted
to "a net loss [to Jews] in status and lifestyle." [SCHORSCH, p. 383]
Elsewhere, he wrote that "it is likely ... that even the average
medieval Jew, compared to his average Christian contemporary ... was the
less unhappy and destitute creature -- less unhappy and destitute not
only by his own consciousness, but even if measured by such objective
criteria as standards of living, cultural amenities, and protection
against individual starvation and disease." [LINDEMANN, Esau's, p. 11]
"Throughout the Middle Ages," notes David Biale, "the Jews enjoyed
considerable influence in many of the lands in which they lived ... In
addition to their interest Court politics, these Jews participated in
political life in defense of Jewish interests." [BIALE, POWER p. 69]
"The situation of the Jews in the first half of the Middle Ages," says
Abram Leon, "was ... extremely favorable. The Jews were considered as
being a part of the upper classes in society and their juridicial
position was not perceptibly different from that of the nobility."
[LEON, p. 128] "At least some of the Jewish dress of the Middle Ages,"
adds Biale, "such as the Jewish hat, originated out of choice rather
than compulsion ... The yellow patch [worn by Jews] ... was not
originally intended as an instrument for segregating and humiliating the
Jews ... but to proclaim publicly that its wearer enjoyed official
protection." [BIALE, POWER, p. 67]
One of the privileges Jews enjoyed throughout Europe until relatively
modern history was that they didn't have to serve in the local military
organizations. "During the continuous wars of the sixteenth,
seventeenth, and eighteenth centuries," wrote Baron, " ... the Jews were
neutral and suffered few losses. If they had been combatants they might
have lost more than in all the pogroms." [LIBERLES, p. 42] Yet Medieval
Jews were allowed the extremely significant privilege of carrying
weapons, a privilege equal to knights and one to which all commoners
(the overwhelming majority of the population) were forbidden. [GOLDBERG,
p. 123] Baron also noted that, while there were certainly Jews who
suffered poverty, the surrounding Christian population was worse off.
And if the Jewish ghettos were, as widely claimed, abject holes of
enforced degradation, "is it not remarkable that the most typical Ghetto
in the world, the Frankfurt Judengasse, produced in the pre-Emancipation
period the greatest banking house in history?" [LIBERLES p. 45]
"The Jews," says Israel Shahak,
"in spite of all the persecution to which they were subjected, formed
an integral part of the privileged classes ... Jewish historiography,
especially in English, is misleading on this point inasmuch as it tends
to focus on Jewish poverty and anti-Jewish discrimination ... The
poorest Jewish craftsman, peddlar, landlord's steward, or petty cleric
was immeasurably better off than a serf [most of the non-Jewish
population]. This was especially true in those European countries
where serfdom persisted until the nineteenth century, whether in a
partial or extreme form: Prussia, Austria (including Hungary), Poland,
and the Polan lands taken by Russia. And it is not without significance
that, prior to the beginning of the great Jewish migration of modern
times (around 1889), a large majority of all Jews were living in those
areas and that their most important social function there was to
mediate the oppression of peasants on behalf of the nobility and
the Crown." [SHAHAK, p. 52-53]
Jews in Eastern Europe understood the people around them as,
categorically, persecutors. And "the Jews saw their persecutors as an
inferior race," noted World Zionist Organization President Nahum
Goldmann, "Most of my [physician] grandfather's patients [in Lithuania]
were peasants. Every Jew felt ten or a hundred times the superior of
these lowly tillers of the soil; he was cultured, learned Hebrew, knew
the Bible, studied the Talmud -- in other words he knew that he stood
head and shoulders above these illiterates." [GOLDMANN, 1978, p. 13]
"It would never have occurred to us," said one Jewish immigrant to the
United States, "that the Gentile world [in Eastern Europe] was happier
... On the contrary, we considered our world happier and finer." "We
thought they were unfortunate," says another, "We were above them, this
was the feeling [towards peasants]." [MORAWSKA, p. 17] In the face of
the commonly cherished belief among modern Jews that their brethren of
Eastern Europe were terribly and uniformly impoverished, it is a fact
that Jews were doing so well (relative to the non-Jews around them) that
non-Jewish servants in Jewish households were common.
Apart from racist folk tales, Zborowski and Herzog note that most Jewish
children in Eastern Europe learned fragments of the surrounding non-
Jewish culture via the Gentile servants in their homes. "These
impressions [of non-Jewish life]," the scholars write, "[were] available
not only to the children of the rich, for [Jewish] women of modest
circumstances who worked in a store or at the market often had the help
of a [non-Jewish] peasant girl in the house." [ZBOROWSKI, p. 155]
"[Jewish life] was certainly better than the life of the Russian
peasant," remarks Howard Sachar. [SACHAR, p. 215]
"We were luckier than most of our fellow-Jews in being able to afford
'servants,' if that is the real name for them," declares Chaim Weizmann,
an immigrant from the "Pale" of Russia, an agitator for how bad Jews had
it in his place of birth, and the first president of modern Israel, "...
[My second servant] who outlived the first and was with us for something
like thirty-five years, was a lovable peasant by the name of Yakim ...
He had learned to sing, after a fashion, the Jewish national anthem,
Hatikvah; and in moments of enthusiasm would cry out: 'Come, little
ones, let us sing Tikvah!'" [WEIZMAN, C., 1949, p. 22]
Elsewhere, Weizman adds:
"The teachers and governing authorities of the schools within the Pale
[an area of Russia] were typical Russian officials, and as such, not
free from corruption. So the rich Jew would use his gold to pave the way
for his boy to enter the school ... There were occasions when a rich Jew
would hire ten non-Jewish candidates (at times rather oddly selected) to
sit for the entrance examination at the local school, and thus make room
for one Jewish pupil -- needless to say his own son or a protege."
[WEIZMAN, C., 1949, p. 31]
"Even when the Jewish common people were known to be desperately poor,"
adds Albert Lindemann, "as in Austrian Galicia or parts of the Jewish
Pale of Settlement in tsarist Russia, their overall per capita wealth
still seems to have been greater than that of non-Jews, mostly peasants,
among whom they lived." [LINDEMANN, Esau's, p. 21] "On the whole," says
sociologist Stephen Steinberg, "Eastern European Jews [prior to
immigration to America in the late nineteenth century] were
unquestionably poor, though decidedly better off than the surrounding
peasant population." [STEINBERG, p. 97]
What, one wonders, is to be read between this relativity of being
"poor?" How poor could Jews have really been if they were "decidedly
better off" than the non-Jewish peasants (who were most of the Eastern
European population), even hiring Polish servants for their homes?
Another part of Jewish popular mythology is that the Jews were forced
against their will into ghettos in Europe. The widely-believed
accusation that Jews were forcibly segregated, particularly into
ghettos, is a distortion of historical fact. In the Middle Ages most
Christian towns themselves had walls, gates, and locks for protection
from outsiders. The enclosed Jewish ghetto was, in origin, a Jewish
construction, conceived for both protection and self-segregation from
the taint of non-Jewish ways.
"In the thirteenth century," writes Max Weinrich, "segregated living
quarters for Jews were made compulsory. The fact of the matter is that
separate Jewish streets had existed all along ... If the Jews lived
together long before segregated living quarters were imposed upon them,
then their segregation must have been voluntary. It was. Living apart,
no matter how bizarre it may appear in the light of present day concepts
and attitudes, was part of the 'privileges' accorded to the Jews in
conforming with their own wishes." [WEINRICH, p. 105]
As president Nachum Goldmann of the World Zionist Organization notes:
"It is wrong to say that the goyim forced the Jews to separate
themselves
themselves from other societies. When the Christians defined the
ghetto limits, Jews lived there already." [GOLDMANN, N., 1978, p. 66]
For centuries Jews isolated themselves from their surrounding non-Jewish
neighbors except, of course, for the necessities of commerce. "Had the
Jews not possessed a deep-rooted conviction of the truth of their
religion," says Jacob Katz, "and had they not actively sought to
maintain their separate identity, the tendencies inherent in medieval
conditions would inevitably have ended by breaking down the social
barrier erected by Jewish ritual." [KATZ, Ex, p. 40] "In Orthodox
Judaism," wrote anthropologist Maurice Fishberg in 1911, "a Jew must not
eat at the same table with a Gentile, nor any food prepared by the
latter; must not eat or drink from dishes, with spoons, forks, knives,
etc. which have been used by a Gentile; must not drink wine with the
container of which has been touched by a Christian, Mohammadan, or
heathen ... I know Jews to feel nauseated and even vomit when told that
the food they have consumed was not kosher. ... It was the intense
tribal spirit engendered by his religion which kept the Jew from
intimate contact with the Gentiles, more than the laws promulgated by
Christian states for the purpose." [FISHBERG, p. 536]
"We [Jews] formed the ghetto ourselves," wrote the Zionist leader
Vladamir Zabotinsky, " ... voluntarily, for the same reason for which
Europeans in Shanghai established their separate quarter, to be able to
live their own way." [KORBANSKI, p. 8] "The Ghetto was rather a
privilege than a disability," notes J. O. Hertzler, "and sometimes was
claimed by the Jews as a right when its demolition was threatened."
[HERTZLER, p. 73] Boas Evron cites the work of fellow Israeli scholar,
Yehezkel Kaufmann, in noting that
ElParedon
The Holofucks has become a big time industry for the Zionozi parasites . The
survivors seem to multiply , and in
France the children are going to be barinwashed with this fairytale ....
There might be a lesson for Amerika :
stop bailing out the Israeli parasites ! But is Amerika willing ?
h ttp://smokingmirrors.blogspot.com/
Brainwashing American and French children,
with suffering Jews - but not with suffering children hit by Jew-made
AIDS
not suffering children by jew-made Agent Orange
not suffering children made by Jew-made sanctions
Why not?
Because arselicking the Jews is profitable
How?
Example
Jew Sharon do Twin Towers job - that is Power over the World
Blair licks sharon arsehole to taste the Power - Global power
Same thing Bush
Blair Bush would be nothing without 911
It is Sharon 911 job that made Blair Bush Great
Thats why JudaeoFascists keep licking Jew arse
Thats why JudaeoFascists are protecting the Jew with Laws of Impunity
Thats why French children are brainwashed with Jew perfidity
HHW
comes to the late Professor and highly regarded literary critic,
Edward Said. You can't read him and most probably have never tried.
His only audience consists of well-educated people. "Orientalism" is
particularly beyond your grasp. Were you to attempt it the tabula
would remain raza.
On Feb 18, 10:30 am, "DoD" <danskisan...@gmail.com> wrote:
> For the last quarter century, many political leaders and candidates have
> been overly swayed by the willful misinterpretation of Western history
> instigated by Columbia University's infamous late professor, Edward Said. As
> a bromide, Western civilization could greatly benefit if the current crop of
> presidential hopefuls would immediately read Ibn Warraq's Defending the
> West: A Critique of Edward Said's Orientalism (Prometheus, 2007).
Perfectly in character. Begins with a misrepresentation. Who's been
swayed? Certainly not our intimidated Congress and Administrations
this last 25 years. That's the problem. This Israel lobby mouthpiece
is simply horrified that anyone with potential political influence
would read a book critical of Israel written by a famous native
Palestinian. "Willful misrepresentation, instigation, infamous,
bromide," etc., gutter talk wells up from its journalistic cess pool
in the first paragraph demonstrating the instinct for defamation
characteristic of these people. And look again at the title of the
Warraq book! One can see the scheme almost immediately. The Israelis
are going to be seen as the only outpost of beleaguered Western
Civilization in the entire region. THEREFORE, we must war against
Muslims shoulder to shoulder with the heroic israelis. THEREFORE,
Israel must be permitted to cleanse and take the West Bank.
>
> Besides clearly identifying the magnitude of the damage Said and his
> mindless sycophants have done, the book will also provide an instant
> curative for foolish ideas so widely generated by Islamic dyspepsia. At long
> last, Western politicians have a yardstick by which to measure our cultural
> and political grandeurs (including an enormous, highly beneficial propensity
> for self-criticism), as compared to the social dysfunction, disintegration
> and horrors wrought through 1,400 years of Islamic history, and continuing
> in our own age.
"Mindless psycophants, instant curative, foolish ideas, Islamic
dyspepsia (?), social dysfunction, disintegration, horrors." This
blatant hysteria is actually a good sign. It replaces the arrogance of
the lobby, secure in its ability to manipulate Americans indefinitely
and to dictate our israel policy. Yes, hysteria in this arena is a
good sign.
>
> Henceforward, in fact, all college professors requiring students to read
> Edward Said's Orientalism should also require Ibn Warraq's 24-karat,
> 555-page tome. Students (and future leaders) might otherwise accept Said's
> fundamentally flawed evaluation of the West--what Ibn Warraq with exacting
> detail identifies as inadequate methods, incoherence, tendentious
> interpretations--and amusing, but nevertheless exceedingly dangerous,
> "historical howlers."
They insist that "all college professors" assign the lobby's favorite
book, expanding their jurisdiction of intimidation to college reading
lists. The Congress and Administration are not enough.
>
> Said earns Ibn Warraq's credit for courage and self-criticism; he did note
> the foolishness of Arab writers adhering to such "out-moded and discredited
> ideas," as "the Jews never suffered..., the Holocaust is an obfuscatory
> confection created by the Elders of Zion," or supporting convicted criminal,
> French Holocaust denier Roger Garaudy.
But he does not earn any credit from Front Page, the scrofulous pit
bull of American neozionism.
>
> But what irony Ibn Warraq also finds--that "self-examination for Arabs and
> Muslims, and especially criticism of Islam in the West" has grown nearly
> impossible thanks largely to the "pernicious influence of Edward Said's
> Orientalism." The book "taught an entire generation of Arabs the art of
> self-pity," by blaming all Arab and Muslim miseries on those "wicked
> imperialists, racists and Zionists," but for whom Arabs and Muslims almost
> universally claim their worlds would once again achieve ascendancy.
Ever lower it sinks. One book is responsible for "teaching an entire
generation of Arabs" what they should not have been permitted to
learn, for which the Warraq book will be an antidote. There is no
racism in Zionism. The colonial experience was a good thing for Arabs.
And it's a bad thing for Arabs to "claim their worlds". Ennobling,
uplifting. Send it everywhere! Insist it be put on the reading lists
in the Middle Schools! We don't have a hundred thousand universities
anyway. It is consistent with Western Civilization's ethnic cleansing
of Arabs in Palestine. It makes it easier to justify.
What, Western Civilization didn't do that? It was the Israelis? Oh,
sorry. They did it? Really? The strings weren't being pulled from
Berlin, Paris or London? Oh, from the United States? Well, then that's
okay.
>
> Alas, Said neglected the vast era of Islamic imperialism, Ibn Warraq
> observes--from Mohammed's invention of the "one true faith" through the 17th
> Century, with relapses when ever adequate wealth, time and war materiel were
> available. Enriched with 20th century petrodollars, the Islamic world
> renewed this effort--via the "modernized" Muslim Brotherhood strategy of
> ancient Islamic supremacist jihad--and in the 21st century continues
> aggressively pursuing financial jihad, particularly through "shari'a
> finance."
Instead, comb everything Muslem for things which might alienate the
half-educated in the West and spread it around in the most tendentious
format available. FRONT PAGE!
>
> Terror-advocating "experts" such as Pakistan's Taqi Usmani--a former
> Pakistani Shari'a Court jurist-- set standards for Islamic banking, an MB
> construct established solely to promote Islamic supremacy. Indeed, to date
> Usmani remains on the shari'a advisory board of Saudi Arabia's
> terror-funding Dallah al-Baraka Group; his Islamic California online
> bookstore hawks works by U.S.-designated terrorists, and in July 2007 Usmani
> advised Muslims to live peacefully in Great Britain only until they have the
> strength to win battles and "establish the supremacy of Islam." Similarly,
> Syrian Abdul Sattar Abu Ghuddah is a senior-level advisor to al-Baraka.
Don't forget that American's should not have the right to read the
books of their choice. Certainly not when written by Arabs critical of
Israel. Freedom of speech and the press and freedom of enquiry are too
dangerous to Israeli prospects in the West Bank, much too dangerous.
They can't be indulged. "After all a Jewish scribe, with a durable
power of attorney acting on behalf of G-d, gave it to us and we can't
permit anything to usurp H-s will."
> Said's Orientalism alone, as Ibn Warraq also correctly contends, "bludgeoned
> into silence any criticism of Islam"--although Said was himself Christian,
> and not a scholar of Islam--and added late-modern inadmissibility to the
> 1,400-year-old Islamic tradition embedded in Shari'a law. Namely, any Muslim
> (or non-Muslim) criticizing Mohammed or Islam thereby becomes guilty of
> blasphemy, which under the identical Islamic legal code warrants a death
> sentence.
How would this author know about Said's alleged "bludgeonings". This
hack hasn't read him either. That's obvious from the complete absence
in this piece of any indicia of personal knowledge of Said's work.
>
> Ibn Warraq does not merely criticize Said, however. He also shows at great
> length many of them innumerable benefits the West delivered to the Islamic
> world. As Egyptian Nobel-prize-winning novelist Naguib Mahfouz stated,
> "thanks to Napoleon's campaign" there, Egypt emerged from "centuries of
> obscurantism" into modernity, including Western scholars' discoveries of
> ancient pre-Islamic Egypt, which anchors Egypt's tourist industry today.
"Don't even consider stopping American interference in the domestic
affairs of Arab states! It is necessary for Israel and THEREFORE must
be just fine for her opponents too!"
>
> Said contended that "the Orient was viewed as something inviting French
> interest, penetration, insemination--in short colonization.." Yet the
> German, Russian, Italian and Western Jewish scholars whom Said didn't
> mention (whose existence gutted his thesis) created the very fields of
> Islamic, Middle Eastern and Arabic studies. They included Paul Kahle, Rudolf
> Geyer, Hubert Grimme, Anton Baumstark, Carl Heinrich Becker, Carl
> Brockelmann, S. P. Tolstov, Leone Caetani--and Abraham Geiger and his famed
> protégé, Ignaz Goldziher.
A classic non-sequitur. He was speaking of French colonialism at that
point. Nothing in "Orientalism" can be legitimately seen as even an
implicit denial that non-French academics and colonialists were also
interested in the area. What would one expect as to regional studies?
All major western nations supported universities in which there were
"orientalists" as they used to be called. This paragraph was put
together by a hack who either didn't understand what he was reading or
mendaciously twisted its meaning.
>
> Not only these Westerners, but almost all of Western history and thought,
> from ancient Greece onward--were guided by what Ibn Warraq calls "three
> tutelary guiding lights,"--rationalism (truth and objective knowledge);
> universalism (openness to others' ideas); and self-criticism. He examines
> these attributes at length, in classical antiquity, early Christianity,
> Indian history and orientalists, archaeologists, and even the British Empire
> and Lord George Nathaniel Curzon.
>
> All, Ibn Warraq exactingly proves, pursued objective truth and knowledge,
> were open to others and all humanity--and consistently criticized themselves
> and their societies to effect improvements. In fact, India's rich Buddhist
> traditions were little known until the 19th century, when Western scholars
> recovered texts in Sanskrit, Tibetan and Pali, thereby discovering a host of
> Indian monuments that were subsequently excavated and restored. Sir Jadunuth
> Sarkar thus noted that "the greatest gift of the English, after universal
> peace and modernization of society...--is the Renaissance which marked our
> 19th century." This was little wonder, since during 500 years of Muslim
> jihad invasions, from 1000 through 1525, an estimated 80 million Hindus
> perished, according to Indian scholar K.S. Lal.
Uhuh. Some connection to the lobby's support of Israeli abuse of the
Palestinian people, please? Is this nothing but an exercise in
demonization of Muslims?
> In contrast, Ibn Warraq observes that Islamic orthodoxy has always been and
> remains "suspicious of 'knowledge for its own sake'," since "Unfettered
> intellectual inquiry is deemed dangerous to the faith."
The hypocrisy of this incompetent author is blatant. Just a few
paragraphs ago he was frothing about the need to figuratively burn
books and inhibit free inquiry and now he quotes Warraq's claims that
Arabs *too* are "suspicious of knowledge for its own sake" just like
American Jewish activists who deem "Unfettered intellectual
inquiry....dangerous to the faith."
That would explain
> the Arab Human Development Report of 2003 finding, Ibn Warraq writes, that
>
> "the total number of books translated into Arabic in the last 1,000 years is
> fewer than those translated in Spain in one year. Greece, with a population
> of fewer than 11 million, translates five times as many books from abroad
> into Greek annually as the 22 Arab countries combined, with a total
> population of more than 300 million, translated into Arabic."
One wonders why this is deemed such a delicious fact. But anyway, its
aim is simply to throw more stones at the Arab people per se. It's a
classic exercise in the ad hominem argument.
> Yet Said blamed all the Middle East's ills on Westerners, conveniently
> forgetting that Arab and Muslim pleas for assistance often brought Western
> "imperialists" to the Middle East in the first place, as Ibn Warraq also
> shows.
Here's whoever's logic:
P.1: Arabs don't read much; and
P.2: in the past Arabs have occasionally asked for help from the West;
THEREFORE, Israel *deserves* the West Bank. The US should be happy to
pay for it in every way because IT is a part of Western Civilization.
And, accordingly, come to think of it, the US should pay Israel's
entire defense budget even though Israel and Western Civilization
describe two very different phenomena.
> Efraim and Inari Karsh conclusively prove in Empires of the Sand: The
> Struggle for Master in the Middle East, 1789-1923 (Harvard University Press,
> 1999), the Muslim world repeatedly sought help from the Western powers. Upon
> Napoleon Bonaparte's 1789 conquest of Egypt, Ottoman Sultan Selim III
> declared Jihad against the French--joining the infidel British and Russian
> empires to protect his imperial territories from the French. In 1804, the
> Ottomans requested and received territorial integrity guarantees from the
> Russian and Austrian empires. In 1809, the Ottomans allied with the infidel
> British after squabbling with Russia.
Naw, there were no imperial adventures. All was sweetness and light
from Europe. Well, actually....... here's a book about one spectacular
episode of that sweetness:
>
> Britain and France opposed construction of the Suez Canal, which they feared
> would violate the Ottoman Empire and hurt over-land trade routes to Asia. In
> 1866, though, the Sultan relented and conceded to Egypt's khedives. Then,
> Khedive Ismail's bribery of Sultan Abdul Hamid II (to build his
> mini-Egyptian empire) nearly bankrupted his protectorate. To lighten his
> massive debts, Ismail in 1875 sold his Suez shares to Britain for roughly
> their £4 million nominal value.
More non sequiturs. This cribber doesn't know what he's doing.
> Despite even the ensuing riots, British Prime Minister William Ewart
> Gladstone (1868-74; 1880-85; 1886 and 1892-94) did not heed repeated Ottoman
> pleas that England rule Egypt. Only in 1882 did Gladstone agree--after the
> Ottomans begged for a British naval squadron. Yet the British "imperialists"
> tried mightily to return canal ownership to Egypt--which the Sultan
> ironically refused.
How strange given 1956.
>
> Said arrived in his extreme state of vacuousness--contrary to the vast
> evidence--by deriving his methods from the superficiality of French
> "existentialists, structuralists, deconstructionists and postmodernists"
> with "grandiose theories" supported by "flimsy history or empirical
> foundations." Consequently, Said's Orientalism "gave those unable to think
> for themselves a formula," which could apply "to every cultural phenomenon
> without having to .conduct any real archival research requiring mastery of
> languages, or research in the field.." Not surprisingly, Said's signature
> work displays "all the laziness and arrogance of the man of letters who does
> not have much time for empirical research, or.making sense of his results."
But the Front Page hack hasn't given us even a faint distant whiff of
Warraq's aguments or scholarship. It is possible, however, that this
is due to the ignorance of the article's author. It's a disconnected
cut and paste job. It's impossible to summarize a serious history that
way. I'll look for competent reviews.
> But again, Ibn Warraq does not simply complain. He defends the West, as the
> title of this superb volume suggests, by offering many of the historical
> comparison that Said offends worst by neglecting. Said tries the West on the
> basis of a few examples, taken out of context, "judged and condemned as the
> source of all evil." He excoriates the West for practicing slavery, despite
> its abolition, for example.
Defends the West? How does it benefit Israel that the West is
defended? She's not part of the West. G-d has set her down in Asia.
> However, Ibn Warraq shows that things were all together otherwise. "Black
> Africa was a full and active partner in the slave trade," produced black
> captives and was solely responsible for organizing and controlling their
> sales. "African powers remained in control of the sale of the slaves as long
> as the slave trade lasted."
Black slave traders were "Black Africa." Do you believe that, DoD?
Is it true, DoD, that Warraq failed to mention Jewish participation in
the slave trade? If so how could that be? And how could the review
have missed such a sensitive issue.
> Said includes none of these historically significant factors in Orientalism,
> much less any others of his works.
P.1: The slave trade was partially attributable to some Blacks;
P. 2: Arabs were in the eunuch business;
P. 3: Jewish participation in the slave trade is unknown to or
unmentioned by Warraq;
THEREFORE, Israel, a leading light of Western Civilization, has a
right to ethnically cleanse and annex the West Bank.
>
> Ibn Warraq includes hundreds more such nuggets in this work. Together, these
> scrupulously documented historical facts render Defending the West so
> important that every self-respecting librarian in the world (especially
> those in Middle East studies) should grace their shelves with several
> copies.
Perhaps a sex change? From the Israel Lobby to The Western
Civilization Lobby?
> Indeed, the public should do everything possible to quickly circulate
> 100,000 copies of this extraordinary book quickly to educators, political
> leaders and all others in roles critical to ideological and military
> self-defense. Then, they should encourage millions more readers to circulate
> a second 100,000 copies--and speedily wear them out from reading
Sure, DoD, "the public" should distribute a hundred thousand volumes.
.http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID=97CCC078-
DF30-4A6...
dsha...@gmail.com
> In the first place, DoD, you're absolutely out of your depth when it
> comes to the late Professor and highly regarded literary critic,
> Edward Said. You can't read him and most probably have never tried.
> His only audience consists of well-educated people.
Not when every half-baked Jew hater in these NGs, including Humbert,
has read Said. He's not that difficult, even when he's dealing with
his forte, which is literature. He's not that difficult when he's
spewing Palliebull either, which, like most propagandists, he aims at
the lowest intellectual denominator.
Naturally, Humbert is as much an expert on Said as he is on ME
history.
Deborah
DoD
About 5 years back I ran across a fantastic piece on Said....It was
pretty long and detailed. I will try and find it.
Topaz
The West is the White race.
The goal of America is to destroy the White race. The
multi-culture and pluralism they push is only at the expense of
Whites. No one is trying to push multi-culture in China or Japan or
anyplace but on the Whites. And they promote racial intermarriage.
If things continue as they are the White race is doomed.
And who is doing all of this? It is the USA government and the
media, in other words the Jews.
Many Whites are traitors. They support the USA government and their
own destruction. We should look for allies. And anyone who wants to
remove the Jews from power is our ally. In the past the Japanese were
our allies. Today it is the Muslims.
Osama bin Laden
September 24th statement published in Pakistan
"I have already said that we are not hostile to the United States. We
are against the system, which makes other nations slaves of the United
States, or forces them to mortgage their political and economic
freedom. This system is totally in control of the American Jews, whose
first priority is Israel, not the United States. It is simply that the
American people are themselves the slaves of the Jews and are forced
to live according to the principles and laws laid by them. So, the
punishment should reach Israel. In fact, it
is Israel, which is giving a blood bath to innocent Muslims and the
U.S. is not uttering a single word."
http://www.ihr.org/ http://www.natvan.com
HHW
>
> > In the first place, DoD, you're absolutely out of your depth when it
> > comes to the late Professor and highly regarded literary critic,
> > Edward Said. You can't read him and most probably have never tried.
> > His only audience consists of well-educated people.
>
> Not when every half-baked Jew hater in these NGs, including Humbert,
> has read Said. He's not that difficult, even when he's dealing with
> his forte, which is literature. He's not that difficult when he's
> spewing Palliebull either, which, like most propagandists, he aims at
> the lowest intellectual denominator.
He's too difficult for DoD.
>
> Naturally, Humbert is as much an expert on Said as he is on ME
> history.
On doesn't need much expertise in "ME history" to get the relevant
drift on Israel. What she's doing right now to Gaza is a crime against
humanity.
>
> Deborah
Bugger off Rosen. I've read both "Orientalism" and his autobiography
written while he was dying. Both are in my library up north, quite
liberally strewn with marginalia. I've also read quite a few of his
journal articles and other writings over the years. I've been aware of
him and interested in what he had to say for over 25 years.
HHW
Who published it?
HHW
I've responded to your cut and paste. The ball's in your court. Suck
it up, now.
DoD
Do you think I am going to read your garbage?
Hahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I have been through this with you already. You are extra wordy and
say nothing of substance. You already have been outed by serveral on
here as being a liar, with no knowledge of M.E. history. You have too
many times shown that you are a man of low character, with no morals.
DoD
Quiet child, I am looking for it now.
Defendario
> On Feb 18, 3:28 pm, "dshar...@gmail.com" <dshar...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Feb 18, 1:24 pm, HHW <coaster132...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> In the first place, DoD, you're absolutely out of your depth when it
>>> comes to the late Professor and highly regarded literary critic,
>>> Edward Said. You can't read him and most probably have never tried.
>>> His only audience consists of well-educated people.
>> Not when every half-baked Jew hater in these NGs, including Humbert,
>> has read Said. He's not that difficult, even when he's dealing with
>> his forte, which is literature. He's not that difficult when he's
>> spewing Palliebull either, which, like most propagandists, he aims at
>> the lowest intellectual denominator.
>
> He's too difficult for DoD.
That's not saying much.
>> Naturally, Humbert is as much an expert on Said as he is on ME
>> history.
>
> On doesn't need much expertise in "ME history" to get the relevant
> drift on Israel. What she's doing right now to Gaza is a crime against
> humanity.
>
My favorite expert on ME History recommends Prof Said highly, but I am
remiss in not having taken the time to read him.
>
>> DebWhoreAh
>
> Bugger off Rosen.
So DebWhore and Rosen are socks for the same aSShole?
> I've read both "Orientalism" and his autobiography
> written while he was dying. Both are in my library up north, quite
> liberally strewn with marginalia. I've also read quite a few of his
> journal articles and other writings over the years. I've been aware of
> him and interested in what he had to say for over 25 years.
>
8-) TY for posting.
>
Defendario
> On Feb 18, 5:32 pm, HHW <coaster132...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> DoD,
>>
>> I've responded to your cut and paste. The ball's in your court. Suck
>> it up, now.
>
> Do you think I am going to read your garbage?
>
I knew you wouldn't. You're too weak and cowardly to attempt a reasoned
debate.
> Hahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
Hysteria, doodoo? Such a femme...
> I have been through this with you already. You are extra wordy and
> say nothing of substance. You already have been outed by serveral on
> here as being a liar, with no knowledge of M.E. history. You have too
> many times shown that you are a man of low character, with no morals.
>
Go Fuck Yourself, doodoo. You can't cut the mustard. If anyone had
less knowledge of ME history than you, it could only be from severe
brainwashing. IOW you are a propagandist who swallowed your own filth.
And you're too wimpy to fight your battles of intellect. Faced with
physical confrontation, you'd shit yourself.
I pity you.
HHW
Yes, Mirelle proved it recently.
drahcir
> In the first place, DoD, you're absolutely out of your depth when it
> comes to the late Professor and highly regarded literary critic,
> Edward Said. You can't read him and most probably have never tried.
> His only audience consists of well-educated people. "Orientalism" is
> particularly beyond your grasp. Were you to attempt it the tabula
> would remain raza.
You seem to be misfiring, H. This isn't about Dod and it most
certainly isn't about your assessment of DoD's ability to comprehend
Orientalism - about the latter, let me assure you no one gives a shit.
This is DoD posting a book review. Get it? I for one am glad he did -
I have read one book by Warraq, and have now ordered this one.
>
> On Feb 18, 10:30 am, "DoD" <danskisan...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > For the last quarter century, many political leaders and candidates have
> > been overly swayed by the willful misinterpretation of Western history
> > instigated by Columbia University's infamous late professor, Edward Said. As
> > a bromide, Western civilization could greatly benefit if the current crop of
> > presidential hopefuls would immediately read Ibn Warraq's Defending the
> > West: A Critique of Edward Said's Orientalism (Prometheus, 2007).
>
> Perfectly in character. Begins with a misrepresentation. Who's been
> swayed? Certainly not our intimidated Congress and Administrations
> this last 25 years. That's the problem. This Israel lobby mouthpiece
Got any evidence of that? Or is anyone who happens to dislike said and
like warraq a lobby mouthpiece, in your esteemed opinion?
> is simply horrified that anyone with potential political influence
> would read a book critical of Israel written by a famous native
> Palestinian.
It has little to do with reading Orientalism. If you knew how to read,
you would understand that it is the mindset that was instigated by the
book
"Willful misrepresentation, instigation, infamous,
> bromide," etc., gutter talk
Except when you use it. You are ridiculous.
wells up from its journalistic cess pool
"Cesspool" is one word, you buffoon.
> in the first paragraph demonstrating the instinct for defamation
> characteristic of these people.
Defamation? LOL!
And look again at the title of the
> Warraq book! One can see the scheme almost immediately.
Why don't you tell the group what in particular you object to in the
title?
The Israelis
> are going to be seen as the only outpost of beleaguered Western
> Civilization in the entire region. THEREFORE, we must war against
> Muslims shoulder to shoulder with the heroic israelis. THEREFORE,
> Israel must be permitted to cleanse and take the West Bank.
I don't know why I bother replying to a moron like you. You've got it
all figured out from the title. Did you try that for your third grade
book reports too?
>
>
> > Besides clearly identifying the magnitude of the damage Said and his
> > mindless sycophants have done, the book will also provide an instant
> > curative for foolish ideas so widely generated by Islamic dyspepsia. At long
> > last, Western politicians have a yardstick by which to measure our cultural
> > and political grandeurs (including an enormous, highly beneficial propensity
> > for self-criticism), as compared to the social dysfunction, disintegration
> > and horrors wrought through 1,400 years of Islamic history, and continuing
> > in our own age.
>
> "Mindless psycophants,
THERE IS NO SUCH WORD AS "PSYCOPHANT", YOU ILLITERATE OAF. Can't you
at least copy and paste accurately?
instant curative, foolish ideas, Islamic
> dyspepsia (?), social dysfunction, disintegration, horrors." This
> blatant hysteria is actually a good sign. It replaces the arrogance of
> the lobby, secure in its ability to manipulate Americans indefinitely
> and to dictate our israel policy. Yes, hysteria in this arena is a
> good sign.
>
He assures himself in public. If you knew anything about Warraq, you'd
know that this book is in all likelihood only marginally concerned
with israel, if at all. Warraq's schtick is warning the west about
what islam truly is, PERIOD. You are just a one trick pony for whom it
always comes down to the jews.
>
> > Henceforward, in fact, all college professors requiring students to read
> > Edward Said's Orientalism should also require Ibn Warraq's 24-karat,
> > 555-page tome. Students (and future leaders) might otherwise accept Said's
> > fundamentally flawed evaluation of the West--what Ibn Warraq with exacting
> > detail identifies as inadequate methods, incoherence, tendentious
> > interpretations--and amusing, but nevertheless exceedingly dangerous,
> > "historical howlers."
>
> They insist that "all college professors" assign the lobby's favorite
> book, expanding their jurisdiction of intimidation to college reading
> lists. The Congress and Administration are not enough.
>
This has ZERO to do with the "lobby", you senile fart. For you,
EVERYTHING is the lobby. I repeat, you are an over the hill, one trick
pony.
>
> > Said earns Ibn Warraq's credit for courage and self-criticism; he did note
> > the foolishness of Arab writers adhering to such "out-moded and discredited
> > ideas," as "the Jews never suffered..., the Holocaust is an obfuscatory
> > confection created by the Elders of Zion," or supporting convicted criminal,
> > French Holocaust denier Roger Garaudy.
>
> But he does not earn any credit from Front Page, the scrofulous pit
> bull of American neozionism.
>
>
>
> > But what irony Ibn Warraq also finds--that "self-examination for Arabs and
> > Muslims, and especially criticism of Islam in the West" has grown nearly
> > impossible thanks largely to the "pernicious influence of Edward Said's
> > Orientalism." The book "taught an entire generation of Arabs the art of
> > self-pity," by blaming all Arab and Muslim miseries on those "wicked
> > imperialists, racists and Zionists," but for whom Arabs and Muslims almost
> > universally claim their worlds would once again achieve ascendancy.
>
> Ever lower it sinks. One book is responsible for "teaching an entire
> generation of Arabs" what they should not have been permitted to
> learn, for which the Warraq book will be an antidote. There is no
> racism in Zionism.
THIS HAS ZERO TO DO WITH ZIONISM, YOU MORON. IT HAS TO DO WITH ISLAM.
I just can't waste my time with this anymore. If the orange crop goes
bad this year, it's the lobby. If the red sox don't win the world
series again, it's the lobby. You are an overeducated, senile
antisemite who can't even remember to whom he is replying half the
time and you are not worth any more of my time.
> ...
>
> read more »
ElParedon
"drahcir" <justrich...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:3a3a875c-2c33-41b8...@s13g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
On Feb 18, 4:24 pm, HHW <coaster132...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> In the first place, DoD, you're absolutely out of your depth when it
> comes to the late Professor and highly regarded literary critic,
> Edward Said. You can't read him and most probably have never tried.
> His only audience consists of well-educated people. "Orientalism" is
> particularly beyond your grasp. Were you to attempt it the tabula
> would remain raza.
You seem to be misfiring, H. This isn't about Dod and it most
certainly isn't about your assessment of DoD's ability to comprehend
Orientalism - about the latter, let me assure you no one gives a shit.
This is DoD posting a book review. Get it? I for one am glad he did -
I have read one book by Warraq, and have now ordered this one.
Who is going to read it to you?
Don Ocean
Dud Is a Moron and Morons of a feather flock together// So it goes with
Drahcir and DuD. Geez, I hope they don't mate... Can you just imagine
the offspring? ;-p
>
>
DoD
> On Feb 18, 4:24 pm, HHW <coaster132...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > In the first place, DoD, you're absolutely out of your depth when it
> > comes to the late Professor and highly regarded literary critic,
> > Edward Said. You can't read him and most probably have never tried.
> > His only audience consists of well-educated people. "Orientalism" is
> > particularly beyond your grasp. Were you to attempt it the tabula
> > would remain raza.
>
> You seem to be misfiring, H. This isn't about Dod and it most
> certainly isn't about your assessment of DoD's ability to comprehend
> Orientalism - about the latter, let me assure you no one gives a shit.
> This is DoD posting a book review. Get it? I for one am glad he did -
> I have read one book by Warraq, and have now ordered this one.
Thanks and as per your replies below.... Watson is kinda like a broken
record. I wonder
if he thinks the lobby causes his warts to grow?
DoD
> ElParedon wrote:
> > "drahcir" <justrichardsmu...@gmail.com> wrote in message
Why are you reading Jewish newsgroups, donna?
Who asked you here? The only people that want you here are liars and
bigots....
Don Ocean
Sooo.. Your saying you want me here! ;-p
Your such a pussy...
>
DoD
No donna, that is not what I am saying. How did you get to be such an
idiot? Did it take you most of your life to achieve that, or did you
pop out of the womb intact?
HHW
>
> > In the first place, DoD, you're absolutely out of your depth when it
> > comes to the late Professor and highly regarded literary critic,
> > Edward Said. You can't read him and most probably have never tried.
> > His only audience consists of well-educated people. "Orientalism" is
> > particularly beyond your grasp. Were you to attempt it the tabula
> > would remain raza.
>
> You seem to be misfiring, H. This isn't about Dod and it most
> certainly isn't about your assessment of DoD's ability to comprehend
> Orientalism - about the latter, let me assure you no one gives a shit.
DoD is a poster child for useful idiots in this field. Of course it's
about him. And the rest of them who display fixations masquerading as
opinions. You respect him less than I do. You won't admit it but
that's a fact.
> This is DoD posting a book review.
Back down the burrow, Ratner. He's posted a stinking propaganda piece,
masquerading as a book review, written by an incompetent solely as a
vehicle for attacking Professor Said who was a leading spokesman for
the Palestinian people here in the States for a quarter century. If it
actually rose to the level of legitimate criticism of "Orientalism" I
would have left it alone.
Get it? I for one am glad he did -
Screw you, Ratner. Get it? You display no more opinions on the merits
of the issues than he does.
> I have read one book by Warraq, and have now ordered this one.
Charming. Have you read Said? Are you still pretending not to have
read Mearsheimer & Walt?
>
>
>
> > On Feb 18, 10:30 am, "DoD" <danskisan...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > For the last quarter century, many political leaders and candidates have
> > > been overly swayed by the willful misinterpretation of Western history
> > > instigated by Columbia University's infamous late professor, Edward Said. As
> > > a bromide, Western civilization could greatly benefit if the current crop of
> > > presidential hopefuls would immediately read Ibn Warraq's Defending the
> > > West: A Critique of Edward Said's Orientalism (Prometheus, 2007).
>
> > Perfectly in character. Begins with a misrepresentation. Who's been
> > swayed? Certainly not our intimidated Congress and Administrations
> > this last 25 years. That's the problem. This Israel lobby mouthpiece
>
> Got any evidence of that? Or is anyone who happens to dislike said and
> like warraq a lobby mouthpiece, in your esteemed opinion?
There's two levels here, writing for FrontPage and the scurrilous
attack on Dr. Said. He's doing the same thing you do here, distracting
attention from the issues by demonizing the opposition.
> > is simply horrified that anyone with potential political influence
> > would read a book critical of Israel written by a famous native
> > Palestinian.
>
> It has little to do with reading Orientalism. If you knew how to read,
> you would understand that it is the mindset that was instigated by the
> book
Read it again you transparent shill, focus on the first sentence. And
then reflect on the votes in House and Senate for the annual mulct for
Israel for the last quarter century. Of course it's a
misrepresentation. The Congress has done the lobby's bidding for the
last 25 years, indisputably. Maybe you weren't watching, right? More
likely you were saying to yourself, "Whatever is good for the Israelis
is *good enough* for these American schmucks."
>
> "Willful misrepresentation, instigation, infamous,
>
> > bromide," etc., gutter talk
>
> Except when you use it.
Really now, dig around.
You admit it's gutter talk. I'll take that straight to the bank.
"FrontPage speaks from the gutter."
You are ridiculous.
Running out of things to say are you? I took that filthy screed apart
in ten minutes. Perhaps you'd like to put it back together again.
> wells up from its journalistic cess pool
>
> "Cesspool" is one word, you buffoon.
Maybe. I can't often find on occasion to use it. This filled the bill.
>
> > in the first paragraph demonstrating the instinct for defamation
> > characteristic of these people.
>
> Defamation? LOL!
Husterical again, Ratner. Were this hack not saying such things of a
dead man it could be worked up legally as libel per se, a baseless
attack on a man's conduct in his professional work. But then you're a
waste water treatment specialist. It does not occur to you not to
besmirch a man's profession.
>
> And look again at the title of the
>
> > Warraq book! One can see the scheme almost immediately.
>
> Why don't you tell the group what in particular you object to in the
> title?
Get it together. I do it immediately below.
>
> The Israelis
>
> > are going to be seen as the only outpost of beleaguered Western
> > Civilization in the entire region. THEREFORE, we must war against
> > Muslims shoulder to shoulder with the heroic israelis. THEREFORE,
> > Israel must be permitted to cleanse and take the West Bank.
>
> I don't know why I bother replying to a moron like you. You've got it
> all figured out from the title. Did you try that for your third grade
> book reports too?
Think about it again. Read the title and the "review" in para materia.
Get the damned book. Review it for us next to my post. You'll eat your
hat after I get my copy this summer. He describes it as an anti-Muslim
screed and it's being breathlessly touted as such by one of the most
irresponsible organs of the lobby, one identified as such by M & W.
The gimmic is to portray Israel as a lonesome bastion of all that
makes us sentimental about Western Civ.Why do you suppose DoD is so
stupid as to drink at that trough? He knows neozionist agitprop when
he sees it. He doesn't even have to read it to know it's full of lies.
He goes to that source for that very purpose.
>
>
>
> > > Besides clearly identifying the magnitude of the damage Said and his
> > > mindless sycophants have done, the book will also provide an instant
> > > curative for foolish ideas so widely generated by Islamic dyspepsia. At long
> > > last, Western politicians have a yardstick by which to measure our cultural
> > > and political grandeurs (including an enormous, highly beneficial propensity
> > > for self-criticism), as compared to the social dysfunction, disintegration
> > > and horrors wrought through 1,400 years of Islamic history, and continuing
> > > in our own age.
>
> > "Mindless psycophants,
>
> THERE IS NO SUCH WORD AS "PSYCOPHANT", YOU ILLITERATE OAF. Can't you
> at least copy and paste accurately?
You're hysterical, Ratner. You have nothing to say. You're on empty
with nothing left in you but some sort of primal scream. You people
are losing Israel's war too. She is going to be *forced* to end the
occupation by the USA. She's wriggling furiously right now. Even the
French have told her to stop the settlement violations. She's flailing
in Gaza, immersed in her own cess pool there. It is making her
desperate and time is running out. The American people have had
enough.
> instant curative, foolish ideas, Islamic> dyspepsia (?), social dysfunction, disintegration, horrors." This
> > blatant hysteria is actually a good sign. It replaces the arrogance of
> > the lobby, secure in its ability to manipulate Americans indefinitely
> > and to dictate our israel policy. Yes, hysteria in this arena is a
> > good sign.
>
> He assures himself in public. If you knew anything about Warraq, you'd
> know that this book is in all likelihood only marginally concerned
> with israel, if at all. Warraq's schtick is warning the west about
> what islam truly is, PERIOD. You are just a one trick pony for whom it
> always comes down to the jews.
That may well be true. I'm not saying that he's written it in league
with the lobby. The lobby spin is the issue, not a particular Arab
authro. But it's exactly what FrontPage wants to obscure and distract
from the central issue, Israel's abominable human rights record and
this murderous 40 year occupation.
>
> > > Henceforward, in fact, all college professors requiring students to read
> > > Edward Said's Orientalism should also require Ibn Warraq's 24-karat,
> > > 555-page tome. Students (and future leaders) might otherwise accept Said's
> > > fundamentally flawed evaluation of the West--what Ibn Warraq with exacting
> > > detail identifies as inadequate methods, incoherence, tendentious
> > > interpretations--and amusing, but nevertheless exceedingly dangerous,
> > > "historical howlers."
>
> > They insist that "all college professors" assign the lobby's favorite
> > book, expanding their jurisdiction of intimidation to college reading
> > lists. The Congress and Administration are not enough.
>
> This has ZERO to do with the "lobby", you senile fart. For you,
> EVERYTHING is the lobby. I repeat, you are an over the hill, one trick
> pony.
Still hysterical, Ratner. And you do repeat yourself but go right
ahead. I don't give a damn. You're getting your ass kicked in the
process and on the merits too. FrontPage and its illiterate hacks
*are* the lobby, not in its entirety of course but charter members. We
have to rein that lobby in in the interests of the American people as
a whole.
>
>
>
> > > Said earns Ibn Warraq's credit for courage and self-criticism; he did note
> > > the foolishness of Arab writers adhering to such "out-moded and discredited
> > > ideas," as "the Jews never suffered..., the Holocaust is an obfuscatory
> > > confection created by the Elders of Zion," or supporting convicted criminal,
> > > French Holocaust denier Roger Garaudy.
>
> > But he does not earn any credit from Front Page, the scrofulous pit
> > bull of American neozionism.
>
> > > But what irony Ibn Warraq also finds--that "self-examination for Arabs and
> > > Muslims, and especially criticism of Islam in the West" has grown nearly
> > > impossible thanks largely to the "pernicious influence of Edward Said's
> > > Orientalism." The book "taught an entire generation of Arabs the art of
> > > self-pity," by blaming all Arab and Muslim miseries on those "wicked
> > > imperialists, racists and Zionists," but for whom Arabs and Muslims almost
> > > universally claim their worlds would once again achieve ascendancy.
>
> > Ever lower it sinks. One book is responsible for "teaching an entire
> > generation of Arabs" what they should not have been permitted to
> > learn, for which the Warraq book will be an antidote. There is no
> > racism in Zionism.
>
> THIS HAS ZERO TO DO WITH ZIONISM, YOU MORON. IT HAS TO DO WITH ISLAM.
You don't process the material very handily, Ratner. Hysteria is
present but I've concluded that you have little data in there to
process.
> I just can't waste my time with this anymore. If the orange crop goes
> bad this year, it's the lobby. If the red sox don't win the world
> series again, it's the lobby. You are an overeducated, senile
> antisemite who can't even remember to whom he is replying half the
> time and you are not worth any more of my time.
This is the second time in a week or so you've indicated an intention
to flee, both stimulated by a drubbing. And BTW, I'm talking to
Richard Ratner of a funky blue collar town in Massachusetts who is a
waste water treatment expert.
You know you can't stimulate hysteria in me. Accordingly you should
fight it. It clouds the mind and further damages your reputation.
Now, think again. Do you actually believe that the racism built into
Zionism and thus into Israeli policy vis a vis the Palestinians has
nothing to do with the lobby's hatred of Professor Said? He was their
champion for a quarter century or more. He made them swallow it for
decades.
> > Don't forget that Americans should not have the right to read the
HHW
Fool. This isn't a Jewish newsgroup. It's a newsgroup devoted to the
study of some things Jewish. I know that pretty subtle but maybe you
can parse the distinction.
HHW
Nope, not very quick our boy David. Did you notice that no one has
bothered to out him?
Don Ocean
Of course it is! Your not bright enough to couch words of your own.. ;-p
How did you get to be such an
> idiot?
Actually that is transference.. Your the idiot in reality..It has
something to do with Croatian inbreeding and one neuron brains of said
Croatian issue.
Did it take you most of your life to achieve that, or did you
> pop out of the womb intact?
I am sorry but that kind of information is way beyond your simple
intellect. ;-p
DoD
> On Feb 18, 9:49 pm, drahcir <justrichardsmu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Professor Said who was a leading spokesman for
> the Palestinian people here in the States for a quarter century. If it
> actually rose to the level of legitimate criticism of "Orientalism" I
> would have left it alone.
You don't even know what it is about..... You don't even know who he
was....
> Get it? I for one am glad he did -
>
> Screw you, Ratner. Get it? You display no more opinions on the merits
> of the issues than he does.
LOL!!!!! You are such a lemon, Watson.
DoD
Two senile old fools.... This is funny.
DoD
I can parse that you are an idiot that likes to play games...
drahcir
drahcir
> On Feb 18, 9:49 pm, drahcir <justrichardsmu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Feb 18, 4:24 pm, HHW <coaster132...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > In the first place, DoD, you're absolutely out of your depth when it
> > > comes to the late Professor and highly regarded literary critic,
> > > Edward Said. You can't read him and most probably have never tried.
> > > His only audience consists of well-educated people. "Orientalism" is
> > > particularly beyond your grasp. Were you to attempt it the tabula
> > > would remain raza.
>
> > You seem to be misfiring, H. This isn't about Dod and it most
> > certainly isn't about your assessment of DoD's ability to comprehend
> > Orientalism - about the latter, let me assure you no one gives a shit.
>
> DoD is a poster child for useful idiots in this field. Of course it's
> about him. And the rest of them who display fixations masquerading as
> opinions. You respect him less than I do. You won't admit it but
> that's a fact.
Man, get a grip. He posted a book review, one that I was grateful to
see since I am a fan of Warraq. Are you totally out of your mind? At
least the review DoD posted really exists - not like your imaginary
Judt review of Pappe.
>
> > This is DoD posting a book review.
>
> Back down the burrow, Ratner.
Hehe!! H is upset because I point out whenever he cannot remember to
whom he is replying. Too bad, H. Live with it or get on alzheimers
meds.
He's posted a stinking propaganda piece,
I see. Since you are an expert on him, why don't you specify precisely
what the review said of Said that you claim is not truthful?
Do you, for example, deny that there are plenty of profs requiring
students to read Orientalism? Why not just state it, calmly and
coolly, instead of berating anyone who happens to like the review?
> masquerading as a book review, written by an incompetent
Show it, you slimeball.
solely as a
> vehicle for attacking Professor Said who was a leading spokesman for
> the Palestinian people here in the States for a quarter century. If it
> actually rose to the level of legitimate criticism of "Orientalism" I
> would have left it alone.
So far, you've posted shit. Exactly the same substance you think is
your brain.
>
> Get it? I for one am glad he did -
>
> Screw you, Ratner. Get it? You display no more opinions on the merits
> of the issues than he does.
All I said was that I appreciated the review and due to it was buying
the book. You are ranting and raving and have proven NOTHING.
>
> > I have read one book by Warraq, and have now ordered this one.
>
> Charming. Have you read Said?
No. Have you read Warraq? Good, then we're even.
Are you still pretending not to have
> read Mearsheimer & Walt?
Tsk, tsk, lying yet again, H? What is it with you, child? If you can
prove your accusation, do so. If not, one can only assume you are yet
again lying. Once a liar, always a liar.
>
>
>
>
> > > On Feb 18, 10:30 am, "DoD" <danskisan...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > For the last quarter century, many political leaders and candidates have
> > > > been overly swayed by the willful misinterpretation of Western history
> > > > instigated by Columbia University's infamous late professor, Edward Said. As
> > > > a bromide, Western civilization could greatly benefit if the current crop of
> > > > presidential hopefuls would immediately read Ibn Warraq's Defending the
> > > > West: A Critique of Edward Said's Orientalism (Prometheus, 2007).
>
> > > Perfectly in character. Begins with a misrepresentation. Who's been
> > > swayed? Certainly not our intimidated Congress and Administrations
> > > this last 25 years. That's the problem. This Israel lobby mouthpiece
>
> > Got any evidence of that? Or is anyone who happens to dislike said and
> > like warraq a lobby mouthpiece, in your esteemed opinion?
>
> There's two levels here, writing for FrontPage
What on earth is that supposed to mean?
and the scurrilous
> attack on Dr. Said.
Read the review again, H. There is no scurrilous attack. Is this
Students (and future leaders) might otherwise accept Said's
fundamentally flawed evaluation of the West--what Ibn Warraq with
exacting detail identifies as inadequate methods, incoherence,
tendentious interpretations--and amusing, but nevertheless exceedingly
dangerous, "historical howlers."
for example, scurrilous? How about this
Said contended that "the Orient was viewed as something inviting
French interest, penetration, insemination--in short colonization...."
Yet the German, Russian, Italian and Western Jewish scholars whom Said
didn't mention (whose existence gutted his thesis) created the very
fields of Islamic, Middle Eastern and Arabic studies. They included
Paul Kahle, Rudolf Geyer, Hubert Grimme, Anton Baumstark, Carl
Heinrich Becker, Carl Brockelmann, S. P. Tolstov, Leone Caetani--and
Abraham Geiger and his famed protégé, Ignaz Goldziher.
Not only these Westerners, but almost all of Western history and
thought, from ancient Greece onward--were guided by what Ibn Warraq
calls "three tutelary guiding lights,"--rationalism (truth and
objective knowledge); universalism (openness to others' ideas); and
self-criticism. He examines these attributes at length, in classical
antiquity, early Christianity, Indian history and orientalists,
archaeologists, and even the British Empire and Lord George Nathaniel
Curzon
You are just a lame, senile antisemite - nothing more - otherwise you
would have attacked the review SPECIFICALLY. YOU CAN'T, SO YOU TRIED
BERATING IT. SORRY, ASSHOLE, NOT HAPPENING.
He's doing the same thing you do here, distracting
> attention from the issues by demonizing the opposition.
>
> > > is simply horrified that anyone with potential political influence
> > > would read a book critical of Israel written by a famous native
> > > Palestinian.
>
> > It has little to do with reading Orientalism. If you knew how to read,
> > you would understand that it is the mindset that was instigated by the
> > book
>
> Read it again you transparent shill, focus on the first sentence. And
> then reflect on the votes in House and Senate for the annual mulct for
> Israel for the last quarter century.
The above is H realizing he fucked up, and then panicking, blabbing
about the house and senate.
Of course it's a
> misrepresentation. The Congress has done the lobby's bidding for the
> last 25 years, indisputably.
Here we go, the one trick pony going back to the only thing he knows.
What a friggin joke you are.
Maybe you weren't watching, right? More
> likely you were saying to yourself, "Whatever is good for the Israelis
> is *good enough* for these American schmucks."
>
>
>
> > "Willful misrepresentation, instigation, infamous,
>
> > > bromide," etc., gutter talk
>
> > Except when you use it.
>
> Really now, dig around.
I guess you didn't comprehend. What more can I expect from you? Let me
explain. Were you to use words like "bromide" (were they part of your
vocabulary, of course), they would be fine. When you see them
effectively used to support a position that you disagree with, they
are "gutter talk". Let me give you some real gutter talk. Do you think
that your plaque-infested "brain" can comprehend now that I have
thoroughly explained, asshole?
>
> You admit it's gutter talk.
They say that when the brain is sufficiently damaged, it loses the
ability to perceive subtler human expression such as sarcasm.
I'll take that straight to the bank.
> "FrontPage speaks from the gutter."
>
> You are ridiculous.
>
> Running out of things to say are you? I took that filthy screed apart
> in ten minutes.
Hehe, I guess you don't have 10 minutes to spare!
Perhaps you'd like to put it back together again.
>
> > wells up from its journalistic cess pool
>
> > "Cesspool" is one word, you buffoon.
>
> Maybe. I can't often find on occasion to use it. This filled the bill.
>
>
>
> > > in the first paragraph demonstrating the instinct for defamation
> > > characteristic of these people.
>
> > Defamation? LOL!
>
> Husterical again, Ratner. Were this hack not saying such things of a
> dead man it could be worked up legally as libel per se,
An ambulance chaser, were ya?
a baseless
> attack on a man's conduct in his professional work. But then you're a
> waste water treatment specialist. It does not occur to you not to
> besmirch a man's profession.
>
Homer SImpson: Because he's dead, everything he said is good.
>
> > And look again at the title of the
>
> > > Warraq book! One can see the scheme almost immediately.
>
> > Why don't you tell the group what in particular you object to in the
> > title?
>
> Get it together. I do it immediately below.
>
>
>
> > The Israelis
>
> > > are going to be seen as the only outpost of beleaguered Western
> > > Civilization in the entire region. THEREFORE, we must war against
> > > Muslims shoulder to shoulder with the heroic israelis. THEREFORE,
> > > Israel must be permitted to cleanse and take the West Bank.
>
> > I don't know why I bother replying to a moron like you. You've got it
> > all figured out from the title. Did you try that for your third grade
> > book reports too?
>
> Think about it again. Read the title and the "review" in para materia.
> Get the damned book. Review it for us next to my post. You'll eat your
> hat after I get my copy this summer. He describes it as an anti-Muslim
> screed and it's being breathlessly touted as such by one of the most
> irresponsible organs of the lobby, one identified as such by M & W.
> The gimmic is to portray Israel as a lonesome bastion of all that
> makes us sentimental about Western Civ.Why do you suppose DoD is so
> stupid as to drink at that trough? He knows neozionist agitprop when
> he sees it. He doesn't even have to read it to know it's full of lies.
> He goes to that source for that very purpose.
>
It's "gimmick". Use spell-check if you are illiterate, for heaven's
sake. And then get a grip. Israel is not Warraq's thing, although you
want so desperately for it to be. I will read the book, and unlike
you, will not judge it before doing so. Did you happen to notice that
the word "Israel" was not included in the review? Did it impinge on
that woefully defective brain? DID IT?
>
>
>
> > > > Besides clearly identifying the magnitude of the damage Said and his
> > > > mindless sycophants have done, the book will also provide an instant
> > > > curative for foolish ideas so widely generated by Islamic dyspepsia. At long
> > > > last, Western politicians have a yardstick by which to measure our cultural
> > > > and political grandeurs (including an enormous, highly beneficial propensity
> > > > for self-criticism), as compared to the social dysfunction, disintegration
> > > > and horrors wrought through 1,400 years of Islamic history, and continuing
> > > > in our own age.
>
> > > "Mindless psycophants,
>
> > THERE IS NO SUCH WORD AS "PSYCOPHANT", YOU ILLITERATE OAF. Can't you
> > at least copy and paste accurately?
>
> You're hysterical, Ratner. You have nothing to say. You're on empty
> with nothing left in you but some sort of primal scream. You people
> are losing Israel's war too. She is going to be *forced* to end the
> occupation by the USA. She's wriggling furiously right now. Even the
> French have told her to stop the settlement violations.
Hehe, we now know that H keeps up with his newsgroup reading.
She's flailing
> in Gaza, immersed in her own cess pool there. It is making her
> desperate and time is running out. The American people have had
> enough.
>
> > instant curative, foolish ideas, Islamic> dyspepsia (?), social dysfunction, disintegration, horrors." This
> > > blatant hysteria is actually a good sign. It replaces the arrogance of
> > > the lobby, secure in its ability to manipulate Americans indefinitely
> > > and to dictate our israel policy. Yes, hysteria in this arena is a
> > > good sign.
>
> > He assures himself in public. If you knew anything about Warraq, you'd
> > know that this book is in all likelihood only marginally concerned
> > with israel, if at all. Warraq's schtick is warning the west about
> > what islam truly is, PERIOD. You are just a one trick pony for whom it
> > always comes down to the jews.
>
> That may well be true. I'm not saying that he's written it in league
> with the lobby. The lobby spin is the issue, not a particular Arab
> authro. But it's exactly what FrontPage wants to obscure and distract
> from the central issue, Israel's abominable human rights record and
> this murderous 40 year occupation.
I repeat, everything doesn't come down to what you see as an
occupation.
>
>
>
>
> > > > Henceforward, in fact, all college professors requiring students to read
> > > > Edward Said's Orientalism should also require Ibn Warraq's 24-karat,
> > > > 555-page tome. Students (and future leaders) might otherwise accept Said's
> > > > fundamentally flawed evaluation of the West--what Ibn Warraq with exacting
> > > > detail identifies as inadequate methods, incoherence, tendentious
> > > > interpretations--and amusing, but nevertheless exceedingly dangerous,
> > > > "historical howlers."
>
> > > They insist that "all college professors" assign the lobby's favorite
> > > book, expanding their jurisdiction of intimidation to college reading
> > > lists. The Congress and Administration are not enough.
>
> > This has ZERO to do with the "lobby", you senile fart. For you,
> > EVERYTHING is the lobby. I repeat, you are an over the hill, one trick
> > pony.
>
> Still hysterical, Ratner.
For readers: whenever H sees capital letters, it triggers something in
his plaque-infested brain to blurt out "hysterical".
And you do repeat yourself but go right
> ahead. I don't give a damn. You're getting your ass kicked in the
> process and on the merits too.
You have a vivid imagination. I'm glad the plaques haven't robbed you
of that, too.
FrontPage and its illiterate hacks
> *are* the lobby, not in its entirety of course but charter members. We
> have to rein that lobby in in the interests of the American people as
> a whole.
>
>
>
> > > > Said earns Ibn Warraq's credit for courage and self-criticism; he did note
> > > > the foolishness of Arab writers adhering to such "out-moded and discredited
> > > > ideas," as "the Jews never suffered..., the Holocaust is an obfuscatory
> > > > confection created by the Elders of Zion," or supporting convicted criminal,
> > > > French Holocaust denier Roger Garaudy.
>
> > > But he does not earn any credit from Front Page, the scrofulous pit
> > > bull of American neozionism.
>
> > > > But what irony Ibn Warraq also finds--that "self-examination for Arabs and
> > > > Muslims, and especially criticism of Islam in the West" has grown nearly
> > > > impossible thanks largely to the "pernicious influence of Edward Said's
> > > > Orientalism." The book "taught
>
> ...
>
> read more >>
fla...@verizon.net
On 19-Feb-2008, drahcir <sue...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > Who is going to read it to you?
> >
> > Dud Is a Moron and Morons of a feather flock together//
Well, half-right for a half-wit.
A shame he's so self-blind...
> >So it goes with
> > Drahcir and DuD.
& then there's the straight out projectionism.
> > Geez, I hope they don't mate... Can you just imagine
> > the offspring? ;-p
> >
> >
> You and El are impotent teenagers, certainly a rarity.
And they exemplify what he pretends others are.
As always w/that sort.
Susan
Defendario
They've both got you pegged, knob-polisher.
;D
Defendario
> On Feb 19, 12:45 am, HHW <coaster132...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> On Feb 18, 9:49 pm, drahcir <justrichardsmu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Professor Said who was a leading spokesman for
>> the Palestinian people here in the States for a quarter century. If it
>> actually rose to the level of legitimate criticism of "Orientalism" I
>> would have left it alone.
>
> You don't even know what it is about..... You don't even know who he
> was....
>
No one in their right mind would trust you to tell them what Said was
about, or who he was. You and your zioNist gang do have an axe to grind.
>> Get it? I for one am glad he did -
>>
>> Screw you, Ratner. Get it? You display no more opinions on the merits
>> of the issues than he does.
>
> LOL!!!!! You are such a lemon, Watson.
Hardly. He summed you to klowns up to a T
ElParedon
"DoD" <danski...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:90574978-919e-4282...@c33g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
DODIE POPPED OUT OF HIS MOMMA'S ARSE!
HHW
> On Feb 18, 3:28 pm, "dshar...@gmail.com" <dshar...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> > > In the first place, DoD, you're absolutely out of your depth when it
> > > comes to the late Professor and highly regarded literary critic,
> > > Edward Said. You can't read him and most probably have never tried.
> > > His only audience consists of well-educated people.
>
> > has read Said. He's not that difficult, even when he's dealing with
> > his forte, which is literature. He's not that difficult when he's
> > spewing Palliebull either, which, like most propagandists, he aims at
> > the lowest intellectual denominator.
>
> > history.
>
> pretty long and detailed. I will try and find it.
So where is it?
HHW
Maybe.
DoD
Do you know how vast archives are?
Shush!!
drahcir
What do you mean, "maybe"? You think he's not looking for it? You
think he's got some devious plan? Or is this impatience just one more
manifestation of your second childhood? Since you're so impatient,
gnaw on this while he's looking:
Did Edward Said Really Speak Truth to Power?
by Efraim Karsh and Rory Miller
Middle East Quarterly
Winter 2008, pp. 13-21
Edward Said's influence on academe looms even larger in death than
during his life. On September 25, 2003, the day that he died, students
and staff of Columbia University gathered in the garden outside
Philosophy Hall, where the longtime professor of English and
comparative literature had his office, for a candlelight vigil. It was
the first of several memorials held in his honor on campuses across
the United States, Asia, and Europe. Celebrity admirers, from novelist
Salman Rushdie to actors Danny Glover and Vanessa Redgrave, joined a
"huge crowd" at a March 2004 service in New York.[1] Almost four years
later, Said's life is the subject of two documentaries--Charles Glass's
Edward Said: The Last Interview and Sato Makoto's Out of Place. On May
25-26, 2007, Boğaziçi University in Istanbul held a major conference
to provide revisionist luminaries including Israeli historian Ilan
Pappé (now at the University of Exeter), British anti-Zionist academic
Jacqueline Rose, and Said's former Columbia colleagues Joseph Massad
and Rashid Khalidi an opportunity to "pay tribute, revisit, and engage
with the richly variegated erudition and seminal scholarship" and
"reflect critically on the location and significance of Said's
intellectual legacy."[2] The conference not only examined Said's
literary criticism--his professional field--and his writing on the
Palestinians but also included a panel on "Said, the Public
Intellectual Speaking Truth to Power." Lionizing Said as an
intellectual warrior casting aside falsehood in a quest for truth
regardless of consequence is a myth that may persist, but examination
of his works suggests such popularity also reflects the triumph of
politics over scholarship in the academy.
Truth to Power?
That Said spoke truth to power is the legacy many of his followers
seek to construct. It was the theme of many of his obituaries. "He
spoke truth to power" read his obituary in The Times Higher Education
Supplement. "Speaking truth to Power" was the title of another tribute
in Al-Ahram Weekly, Egypt's foremost English language paper, which
long carried a Said column. "Truth to Power" is also the name of one
of the comprehensive online bibliographies of Said's work. Said's
nephew Saree Makdisi, a professor of English literature like his
uncle, established a "Speaking Truth to Power" website where he posts
his own "archive of interventions" on the Palestinian issue.[3]
Many Said obituaries attached mythical qualities to what Said termed
his refusal to "accept what orthodoxy or dogma or received ideas tell
you is the truth."[4] The poet Tom Paulin remembered Said's
"Promethean truth-telling."[5] For Mahmoud Darwish, a poet and former
senior Palestinian Liberation Organization (PLO) official, Said in
death was an "eagle soaring higher and higher / bidding farewell to
his height / for dwelling on Olympus / and over heights / is
tiresome."[6]
Such accolades would delight Said who, when asked in 2001 about how he
would like to be remembered, said he would want people to eulogize
that he "tried to tell the truth."[7] He often argued that it was the
"intellectual's role to speak the truth, as plainly, directly, and as
honestly as possible. No intellectual is supposed to worry about
whether what is said embarrasses, pleases, or displeases people in
power. Speaking the truth to power means additionally that the
intellectual's constituency is neither a government nor a corporate or
a career interest: only the truth, unadorned."[8] Such statements came
easier to Said than truth. His accumulated works and statements
demonstrate truth to be a goal he eschewed rather than embraced.
Fabricating Facts to Fit
Said's collected works demonstrate antipathy for integrity and
scholarship. Said often seeks to pass off sweeping and groundless
assertions as historical fact. For example, he claimed that
"historically, in nineteenth-century Europe anti-Semitism included
both Jews and Arabs"[9] even though nineteenth century polemicists,
such as Wilhelm Marr (himself half-Jewish), credited with coining the
term, used it exclusively to describe animus toward Jews.[10] As
egregious was his assertion that "the town of Hebron is essentially an
Arab town. There were no Jews in it before 1967,"[11] a statement that
ignores a long history dating from biblical days to the 1929 Arab
massacre and expulsion of the Jewish population of that city.
Likewise, Said claimed that "as far as the Jewish minority in
Palestine was concerned, Zionism had very little to do with them" in
the post-Balfour Declaration era.[12] In fact, three quarters of the
Jewish inhabitants of Palestine at the time were avowed Zionists who
arrived there as part of the Zionist immigration waves in the
preceding decades. In 1909, they founded Tel Aviv, the first Hebrew-
speaking city since antiquity, two years after Jewish residents of
Jaffa had purchased the land with funds borrowed from the Jewish
National Fund. They established kibbutzim and developed institutions
such as the General Federation of Jewish Labor (Histadrut), which
played a central role in developing the construction, industrial, and
agricultural sectors to support the Zionist endeavor.
As false are Said's claims that "every kibbutz in Israel is on Arab
property that was taken in 1948," and that "Zionists introduced
terrorism into Palestine" in the 1920s.[13] Such statements are
outright errors, not just interpretations of history. Zionists
established Deganyia in 1909, and an additional 110 kibbutzim and 99
moshavim (cooperative villages) by 1944.[14] Nor was there any Zionist
terrorism in Palestine in the 1920s. Quite the contrary: the Arabs'
primary instrument for opposing Jewish national aspirations was
violence, and the relative success or failure of that instrument in
any given period determined Arab politics and diplomacy. As early as
April 1920, Arab nationalists in Palestine sought to thwart Zionist
activity and to rally support for incorporating the country into the
short-lived Syrian kingdom headed by King Faisal bin Hussein by
carrying out a pogrom in Jerusalem in which they killed five Jews and
wounded 211. The following year, Arab riots killed ninety and wounded
hundreds more. In August 1929, Arab rioters across Palestine targeted
Jews, murdering 133 and wounding three times more.
Indeed, Said's description of his childhood years in Mandatory
Palestine, on which he staked personal, and by extension, national
claim to victimhood and dispossession, was more imaginary than real.
[15] Said, a U.S. citizen by birth, grew up in Egypt and made only
periodic visits to family in Jerusalem (or for that matter in other
Arab countries). Mona Anis, an Egyptian journalist and admirer of
Said, recalled her shock and surprise when, in her first personal
encounter with Said at a conference at Essex University in 1984, she
heard him speak Arabic in "perfect Egyptian dialect." She recalled, "I
remember being so taken aback by his unexpected Egyptiannness that I
hardly spoke. When Said left I burst out with the question that had
been perplexing me: 'How come he sounds as Egyptian as you and
me?'"[16]
Hypocrisy
His hypocrisy was flagrant. Not only did Said present legitimate
questions about the narrative he presented about his childhood in
Palestine to be evidence of persecution, but he would also deny that
he had ever claimed to be a Palestinian refugee, albeit continuing to
write about his "fifty years of living the Palestinian exile"[17] and
in reiterating his claim that he was "born in Jerusalem and spent most
of my formative years there,"[18] despite conclusive evidence to the
contrary.
He castigated Martin Peretz, editor of The New Republic and an
outspoken supporter of Israel's security, for exhibiting the
"hypocrisy of the rank coward" for "sitting in the comfort of his
millions in Washington and Boston"[19] while, at the same time, Said
remained in plush quarters in New York. In his 1994 book The Politics
of Dispossession, he wrote that "I was pretty far away from the
contested land, forced to do my bit at a great distance."[20] On
another occasion, he stated that "I speak at a great distance from the
field of struggle."[21] When criticized by PLO chairman Yasir Arafat
as a long-distance Palestinian "jumping on the bandwagon of
patriotism" while failing to "feel the suffering of his people," Said
responded, "I don't understand what the accusation of living in
America is supposed to mean."[22]
Nor did Said see any irony in condemning the Mubarak regime's show-
trial imprisonment of Egyptian sociologist Saad Eddin Ibrahim while
continuing his relationship with the regime's newspaper, Al-Ahram, and
accepting that regime's felicitations. He became such an important
presence on the Egyptian cultural scene that following his death, the
Egyptian Ministry of Culture dedicated a conference to his memory.
There, Egyptian novelist Sonallah Ibrahim refused to accept a £10,000
Egyptian (US $1,750) prize because it was "awarded by a government
that in my view lacks [the] credibility that would make this award
worth receiving."[23] Other novelists and literary figures refused to
make the moral comprises which Said, in his desire to revel in the
powerful's plaudits, would make.
Plagiarist?
Said claimed to value original thought,[24] but he borrowed liberally
from others, especially when it came to writings about the Middle
East. His repudiation of Jewish nationalism repeated and repackaged
Arab propaganda dating back to the early 1920s and the 1930s.[25]
Shortly after its creation in 1964, the PLO produced a short pamphlet
entitled Zionist Colonialism in Palestine. It declared:
The frenzied "scramble for Africa" of the 1880s stimulated the
beginnings of Zionist colonization in Palestine. As European fortune-
hunters, prospective settlers, and empire-builders raced for Africa,
Zionist settlers and would-be state-builders rushed for Palestine.[26]
Contrast this with a passage from Said's The Question of Palestine:
Zionism ... coincided with the period of unparalleled European
territorial acquisition in Africa and Asia, and it was as part of this
general movement of acquisition and occupation that Zionism was
launched initially by Theodor Herzl.[27]
Or consider the pamphlet's explanation of the main difference between
Zionism and nineteenth-century European colonialism:
Unlike European colonization elsewhere ... Zionist colonization of
Palestine was essentially incompatible with the continued existence of
the "native population" in the coveted country.[28]
With Said:
Zionism ... was a colonial vision unlike that of most other
nineteenth-century European powers, for whom the natives of outlying
territories were included in the redemptive mission civilisatrice.[29]
Such paraphrasing of previously published material, if conscious,
borders on plagiarism. Other Said themes parallel those espoused by
the 1975 United Nations General Assembly resolution declaring Zionism
to be "a form of racism and racial discrimination,"[30] and by earlier
polemicists' attempts to equate Zionism and Nazism.[31] James Parkes,
a Christian theologian and historian of Judaism, commented in 1945
that he had already heard "too often" attempts to link the two.[32]
Also problematic is Said's tendency to misrepresent secondhand sources
as original documents. Consider his extensive quotation from the diary
of Zionist official Yosef Weitz in an attempt to prove a grand Zionist
design to dispossess Palestinian Arabs. While Said would like his
readers to believe that he consulted the original document, it appears
that he borrowed the quotations from Israeli academic Israel Shahak,
an outspoken opponent of Zionism. This is evidenced not only by Said's
inability to read Hebrew, the language in which Weitz's diary was
published,[33] but also by the fact that Said recycles Shahak's errors
of quotation. Thus, for example, both Said and Shahak locate a June
15, 1948 Weitz quotation on page 302 in the diary when it appears on
page 303, and both misspell in the exact same manner the village of
Mghar.[34]
Intolerance to Dissent?
While Said sought to cast himself as a courageous defender of free
discourse and thought, his record was opposite. He cast aspersions on
anyone who disagreed with him, conflating academic challenge with
victimization. "Anyone who defies or dares to challenge [American
Zionists]," he wrote, "is subject to the most awful abuse and
vituperation, all of it personal, racist and ideological. They are
relentless, totally without generosity or genuine human understanding.
To say that their diatribes and analyses are Old Testament-like in
manner is to insult the Old Testament."[35]
Said launched ad hominem attacks on major intellectual figures with
whose views about the Middle East he disagreed. To Said, Paul Johnson,
the renowned British writer, was a "retrograde social and political
polemist" while Daniel Pipes, founder of the Middle East Forum and
publisher of the Middle East Quarterly, was a "Neanderthal." Bernard
Lewis, the eminent Princeton historian who challenged Said's
Orientalism[36] in the New York Review of Books,[37] was guilty of
"distorting truth" and had an "extraordinary capacity for getting
nearly everything wrong."[38] Said concluded that the polyglot
historian "knows nothing" about the Arab world. Harvard political
scientist Samuel Huntington, author of the influential Clash of
Civilizations,[39] Said wrote, "knows nothing about civilization, he
knows nothing about history."[40] Said wrote with similar vitriol
toward social anthropologist Ernest Gellner and Middle East historian
Elie Kedourie.
He reserved special venom for Arab academics in the United States who
did not agree with him.[41] He attacked dissident Iraqi writer Kanan
Makiya, who brought Saddam's brutality to international attention in
his books Cruelty and Silence[42] and Republic of Fear,[43] as an
"intellectual who serves power unquestioningly; the greater the power,
the fewer doubts he has. He is a man of vanity who has no compassion,
no demonstrable awareness of human suffering. With no stable
principles or values."[44]
The irony of Said's judgment and dismissal[45] of such intellectuals
is that he conducted no independent research whatever on the Middle
East or Islamic history, politics, and society. In a 1998 interview,
he admitted that "for the forty years that I have been teaching I have
never taught anything other than the Western canon, and certainly
nothing about the Middle East."[46] While famous for writing and
lecturing about Israel and Zionism, he did not speak or read Hebrew.
Still, he positioned himself on the Arab-Israeli question as an
authority who "revealed for a Western audience things that had so far
either been hidden or not discussed at all."[47]
For decades, he characterized scholarly and public criticism over his
stance on Zionism and Israel as "the worst sort of Stalinist bullying"
and, even as his books became bestsellers and were assigned in
classrooms across the country, he argued that the "severest
opprobrium" made his views "no longer acceptable" in the United
States. He recalled that the more the "establishment [tries] to bring
me back to the fold [the more] ... I become enraged, and I become even
more inflammatory, and I reveal even more of their horrible
secrets."[48] He told some people he received death threats but would
remain undeterred.[49] Later, he said he had actually suffered
assassination attempts. "There have been attempts made by the
extremists, who have tried to do away with me," he said in one
interview toward the end of his life.[50]
Such claims were unsubstantiated. While Said said he installed a panic
button in his apartment in the 1980s, he also said, "[W]e never had to
use it. It was only used once, as it turned out, by a house guest, who
thought it was, you know, a light switch."[51] While Rushdie,
Bangladeshi writer Taslima Nasrin, and the late Egyptian novelist
Neguib Mafouz weathered threats, bounties and, in Mafouz's case, a
near-fatal attempt on his life, Said sought to claim the same mantle.
In helping him weave his myth, admirers wrote he risked "scorn and
death threats from extremists to speak out for the people he calls
'the victims of the victims'";[52] how he "has enemies ... the stakes in
being Edward Said are high";[53] how "he is not afraid to challenge
any authority... he has paid a high price for this position."[54]
Using Polemics to Climb the Career Ladder
Said substituted status as a Palestinian activist and polemicist for
scholarship to achieve unprecedented celebrity for an English
professor. He became enmeshed in Palestinian activism after the 1967
Six-Day war. In 1971, he wrote his first piece for Le Monde
Diplomatique[55] and, two years later, he made his debut in The New
York Times;[56] both articles were on the Arab-Israeli conflict. By
1977 he was a member of the Palestine National Council, the PLO's
rubberstamp parliament. The young English professor who had labored in
obscurity prior to embracing the Palestinian cause had come a long
way. While his early studies of Jane Austen and Joseph Conrad made
contributions to his scholarly field, it was his 1978 publication of
Orientalism, a flawed and highly-selective examination of the way the
West perceived Islam,[57] which cemented his celebrity.
Hamid Dabashi, his friend and colleague at Columbia University, noted
in a long tribute published after Said's death, "I had no clue as to
Edward Said's work in literary criticism prior to Orientalism, and for
years after my graduation, I remained entirely oblivious to it ... I
discovered Edward Said first from Orientalism, then his writings on
Palestine, from there to his liberating reflections on the Iranian
Revolution."[58] Said's protestation that involvement in the issue of
"Palestine ... brings no rewards,"[59] was risible. In 1979, he
published The Question of Palestine and was invited to Paris to attend
a seminar on peace in the Middle East with Jean-Paul Sartre and Simone
de Beauvoir in the apartment of Michel Foucault.[60]
His subsequent work eschewed the rigors of scholarship and instead
favored political activism. On February 22, 1980, The New York Times
titled a profile article, "Edward Said: Bright Star of English Lit and
the PLO." Pal Ahluwalia, a professor at the University of South
Australia and the author of a complimentary book on Said's
"intellectual project," explained:
Palestine itself becomes an almost overwhelming repetitive theme
in Said's work. Indeed, the major corpus of his writing deals with
Palestine, and much of it is topical and direct political commentary,
very much in line with his stance on the role of the public
intellectual. Hence we have to see Palestine as firmly connected to
the rest of Said's cultural theory.[61]
His contrarianism and rejectionism ironically augmented his
authenticity among policymakers. In 1993, U.S. Central Command invited
Said, one of the most outspoken critics of the U.S. military and its
role in the 1991 Kuwait war, to address 500 officers. Following his
appearance, CENTCOM asked him to act as a consultant on the region, an
invitation he declined. In the same year, despite his virulent
opposition to the nascent Israeli-Palestinian peace process, the
Clinton administration invited him to the White House signing ceremony
of the Oslo accords, an invitation he also declined.[62]
Plaudits and rewards increased alongside his rejectionism. In 1993,
the British Broadcasting Corporation invited Said to give the Reith
Lecture, its prestigious annual address. The following year, the U.N.
Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization (UNESCO) awarded him
its Picasso Medal. In 1997, he gave the inaugural set of William
Empson Lectures at Cambridge University, as well as the Rajiv Gandhi
Memorial Lecture in Delhi and the Netaji Centenary Oration at the
Netaji Institute in Calcutta. The following year, he served as
distinguished lecturer at the Collège de France, the premier institute
of learning in that country. Again in 1998, the BBC commissioned him
to write and present a documentary film, In Search of Palestine. While
very few professors get such opportunities, Said chose to use it as
evidence of his persecution, noting that after being shown on the BBC
it "more or less disappeared."[63] In 1999, the prestigious Modern
Language Association elected Said its president, and the Middle East
Studies Association appointed him an honorary fellow, a plaudit it has
not even bestowed upon a professor like Bernard Lewis whose
scholarship, unlike Said's, is in Middle Eastern studies. Several
awards and honors in Europe followed.
Said's Legacy
Said's substitution of politics for scholarship in the name of
"speaking truth to power" has spawned scores of students, professors,
and journalists who seek to emulate his path to fame. Justifying any
polemic under the rubric of speaking truth to power now brings reward
in most Western universities. Said once described himself "as a
teacher of how language is used and abused";[64] indeed, he provided a
global audience with a master class on the subject.
It is ironic that while Said and his intellectual successors--Dabashi,
Columbia University associate professor Joseph Massad, University of
Michigan professor Juan Cole, and Chicago political scientist John
Mearsheimer and his Harvard University coauthor Stephen Walt--seek to
profit from false claims of persecution and censorship, across the
Arab world, a plethora of reformers and opponents of authoritarian
regimes suffer for attempting to speak truth to power. By substituting
polemics for research and conflating academic freedom with freedom
from academic standards, Said's legacy may ultimately be to harm fact-
based and lasting Middle East studies scholarship and instruction in
American and European universities.
Efraim Karsh is professor and head of Mediterranean Studies at
King's College London where Rory Miller is a senior lecturer.
[1] "The Edward Said Memorial," Columbia News, Columbia University,
New York, Mar. 25, 2004; Esther Iverem, "Q & A: Danny Glover,"
SeeingBlack.com, Mar. 15, 2004.
[2] "Waiting for the Barbarians: A Tribute to Edward W. Said," May
25-26, 2007, Boğazici University, Istanbul, Turkey.
[3] Saree Makdisi's weblog can be found at http://sareemakdisi.blogspot.com/;
The Times Higher Education Supplement (London), Oct. 10, 2003; Al-
Ahram Weekly (Cairo), Oct. 30- Nov. 5, 2003; Truth to Power: The
Online Bibliography of Edward Said, accessed Aug. 28, 2007.
[4] Edward Said, "Bridge across the Abyss," Al-Ahram Weekly, Sept.
10-16, 1998.
[5] Tom Paulin, "Writing to the Moment," The Guardian, Sept. 27, 2004.
[6] Mahmoud Darwish, "Edward Said: A Contrapuntal Reading," Al-Ahram
Weekly, Sept. 30-Oct. 6, 2004.
[7] "Interview with Edward Said on Reflections on Exile and Other
Essays," Booknotes, June 17, 2001.
[8] Edward Said, "A Desolation, and They Called it Peace," Al-Ahram
Weekly, June 25-July 1, 1998.
[9] David Barsamian and Edward W. Said, Culture and Resistance:
Conversations with Edward W. Said (Cambridge, Mass.: South End Press,
2003), p. 177.
[10] See, for example, Max I. Dimont, Jews, God and History (New York:
New American Library, 1962), p. 312; Joel Carmichael, The Satanizing
of the Jews: Origin and Development of Mystical Anti-Semitism (New
York: Fromm, 1993), pp. 123-30.
[11] Barsamian and Said, Culture and Resistance, p. 54.
[12] Edward Said, The Question of Palestine (New York: Vintage, 1980),
p. 19.
[13] David Barsamian, "Interviews: Edward W. Said," Arts & Opinion,
Nov. 2003.
[14] A Survey of Palestine: Prepared in December 1945 and January 1946
for the Information of the Anglo-American Committee of Inquiry, vol. I
(London: Her Majesty's Stationery Office, 1946), p. 373, reprinted by
the Institute for Palestine Studies, Washington, D.C., 1991.
[15] Justus Weiner, "'My Beautiful Old House' and Other Fabrications
by Edward Said," Commentary, Sept. 1999.
[16] Al-Ahram Weekly, Sept. 24-Oct. 1, 2003.
[17] Edward Said, "Fifty Years of Dispossession," Al-Ahram Weekly, May
7-13, 1998.
[18] Edward Said, "Between Worlds," London Review of Books, May 7,
1998.
[19] Edward Said, "A Voice Crying in the Wilderness," Al-Ahram Weekly,
Aug. 24-30, 2000. He expressed a similar theme toward other Diaspora
Jews in Edward Said, "Thinking about Israel," Al-Ahram Weekly, May
3-9, 2001.
[20] Edward Said, The Politics of Dispossession (New York: Vintage,
1995), p. xvi.
[21] Edward Said, "Arafat Is Only Interested in Saving Himself," The
lndependent (London), June 20, 2002.
[22] Edward Said, Peace and Its Discontents (New York: Vintage Books,
1996), pp. 165-6.
[23] Mona Anis, "Speaking Truth to Power," Al-Ahram Weekly, Oct. 30-
Nov. 5, 2003.
[24] Moustafa Bayoumi, "Edward W. Said (1935-2003)," The Village
Voice, Oct. 1-7, 2003.
[25] See, for example, Bayan Nuwaihid al-Hut, Watha'iq al-Haraka al-
Wataniyya al-Filastiniyya 1918-1939: Min Awraq Akram Zu'aytir, 2nd ed.
(Beirut: Palestinian Research Center, 1984), pp. 4-34; "Report on
Political and Economic Conditions in Palestine: Submitted to His
Excellency the High Commissioner for Palestine by the Executive of the
Seventh Palestine Arab Congress, 1925," Central Zionist Archives
(CZA), S25/665/2; Arthur Rupin, report on a meeting with George
Antonius, July 28, 1930, CZA, AM 1012/868.
[26] Fayez A. Sayegh, Zionist Colonialism in Palestine (Beirut:
Research Center, Palestine Liberation Organization, Sept. 1965), p. 1.
[27] Said, The Question of Palestine, p. 69.
[28] Sayegh, Zionist Colonialism, p. 5.
[29] Said, The Question of Palestine, p. 68 (emphasis in original).
[30] United Nations General Assembly Resolution 3379, Nov. 10, 1975.
[31] Sayegh, Zionist Colonialism, pp. 21-7.
[32] Rory Miller, Divided against Zion: Anti-Zionist Opposition to a
Jewish State in Palestine, 1945-1948 (London: Frank Cass, 2000), p.
148.
[33] Yosef Weitz, Yomani Ve-igrotai La-banim (Tel Aviv: Masada, 1965).
[34] Said, The Question of Palestine, pp. 102, 248, fn. 47; Israel
Shahak, Min al-Arshif as-Sihyuni: Watha'iq wa-Nusus (Beirut:
Munazzamat at-Tahrir al-Filastiniya, Markaz al-Abhath, 1975), p. 31.
[35] Edward Said, "More on American Zionism (2)," Al-Ahram Weekly,
Oct. 5-11, 2000.
[36] Edward Said, Orientalism: Western Conceptions of the Orient (New
York: Pantheon, 1978).
[37] Bernard Lewis, "The Question of Orientalism," The New York Review
of Books, June 24, 1982.
[38] Oleg Grabar and Edward W. Said, "Orientalism: An Exchange, Reply
by Bernard Lewis," The New York Review of Books, Aug. 12, 1982.
[39] New York: Oxford University Press, 1996.
[40] Edward Said, "East Isn't East," The Times Literary Supplement
(London), Feb. 3, 1995; "I Find Myself Instinctively on the Other Side
of Power," interview with Edward Said, The Guardian, Dec. 10, 2001;
Edward Said, "Dignity and Solidarity," Al-Ahram Weekly, June 26-July
2, 2003.
[41] Edward Said, "Suicidal Ignorance," Al-Ahram Weekly, Nov. 15-21,
2001.
[42] New York: W.W. Norton, 1993.
[43] Berkeley: University of California Press, 1989.
[44] Edward Said, "Misinformation about Iraq," Al-Ahram Weekly, Nov.
28-Dec. 4, 2002.
[45] David Barsamian, "Edward Said Interview," The Progressive, Nov.
2001.
[46] Edward Said, "Between Worlds," London Review of Books, May 7,
1998.
[47] Ibid.
[48] Jennifer Wallace interview with Edward Said, "Exiled by Foes,
Silenced by Friends," The Times Higher Education Supplement, Jan. 17,
1997.
[49] Matthew Rothschild, "Edward W. Said, 1935-2003," The Progressive,
Sept. 28, 2003.
[50] "Interview with Edward Said on Reflections on Exile and Other
Essays," Booknotes, June 17, 2001.
[51] Ibid.
[52] "Lion of Judea," interview with Edward Said, The Guardian, May
13, 1997.
[53] Zoe Heller, "Radical Chic," The Independent on Sunday (London),
Feb. 7, 1993.
[54] Nouri Jara, interview with Edward Said on "'Orientalism,' Arab
Intellectuals, Marxism, and Use of Myth in Palestinian History," Al-
Jadid Magazine, Summer 1999.
[55] See Edward Said, "Les Palestiniens face aux responsabilites de la
defaite; la prolongation du conflit entre Israel et les pays Arabes,"
Le Monde Diplomatique (Paris), Oct. 1, 1971.
[56] Edward Said, "Arabs and Jews," The New York Times, Oct. 14, 1973.
[57] Lewis, "The Question of Orientalism."
[58] Hamid Dabashi, "The Moment of Myth: Edward Said (1935-2003),"
Counterpunch, Oct. 2, 2003.
[59] "A Highbrow Hero Who Storms the Ivory Tower," interview with
Edward Said, The Sunday Times, June 20, 1993.
[60] Edward Said, "My Encounter with Sartre," The London Review of
Books, June 1, 2000.
[61] See introduction to Edward Said Memorial Lecture, University of
Adelaide, Oct. 1, 2005, p. 5.
[62] Said, Peace and Its Discontents, p. xxix.
[63] Edward Said, "West Bank Diary," Al-Ahram Weekly, Dec. 10-16,
1998. In July 1999, New York's WNET, a major Public Broadcast Service
(PBS) affiliate, aired the documentary in New York.
[64] Edward Said, "Trying Again and Again," Al-Ahram Weekly, Jan.
11-17, 2001.
DoD
Plus, I am not even looking for it for him. I wouldn't do that. I told
Deborah that I would and I also figured you as well as a few others
might find it informative.
Although you and Count1 might have already seen it.
Or is this impatience just one more
> manifestation of your second childhood? Since you're so impatient,
> gnaw on this while he's looking:
>
> Did Edward Said Really Speak Truth to Power?
>
> by Efraim Karsh and Rory Miller
> Middle East Quarterly
> Winter 2008, pp. 13-21
>
> Edward Said's influence on academe looms even larger in death than
> during his life. On September 25, 2003, the day that he died, students
> and staff of Columbia University gathered in the garden outside
> Philosophy Hall, where the longtime professor of English and
> comparative literature had his office, for a candlelight vigil. It was
> the first of several memorials held in his honor on campuses across
> the United States, Asia, and Europe. Celebrity admirers, from novelist
> Salman Rushdie to actors Danny Glover and Vanessa Redgrave, joined a
> "huge crowd" at a March 2004 service in New York.[1] Almost four years
> later, Said's life is the subject of two documentaries--Charles Glass's
> Edward Said: The Last Interview and Sato Makoto's Out of Place. On May
> 25-26, 2007, Boðaziçi University in Istanbul held a major conference
> as a long-distance ...
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
HHW
Which archives?
DoD
The ones up your butt, dipshit.
David
HHW
Karsh's work on the Middle East has received criticism. In a review of
Empires of the Sand A.B. Toth says:
This is a polemical book whose authors have extended the intemperate
and unbalanced rhetoric customarily employed by dogmatic partisans of
the Arab Israeli conflict to the normally sedate and measured arena of
nineteenth- and early twentieth-century Ottoman history.
and:
The book relies mainly on Western published sources and official
British documents. But their use of even these sources is limited,
since they actually ignore most of nineteenth-century history.
Instead, the authors emphasize those episodes they feel support their
interpretations. [16]
In an answer to Karsh's criticism on the New Historians, Morris
answered in an article of four lines:
Efraim Karsh's article (...) is a mélange of distortions, half-truths,
and plain lies that vividly demonstrates his profound ignorance of
both the source material (...) and the history of the Zionist-Arab
conflict. It does not deserve serious attention or reply.[17]
Morris gave more extensive criticism in a review of Fabricating
Israeli History:
But this is Karsh's way, to belabor minor points while completely
ignoring, and hiding from his readers, the main pieces of evidence.
and
It is a measure of Karsh's ignorance of what actually went on in the
Middle East in 1948 that he writes (p. 97) of "the Arab attack on the
newly-established State of Israel, in which Transjordan's Arab Legion
participated." Quite simply, it did not. and Karsh employs his usual
method of focusing on the one document that seems to uphold his
argument-often while twisting its real purport-while simply ignoring
the mas of documents that undercut it. [18]
According to Ian Lustick Karsh's writing in "Fabricating Israeli
History: the 'New Historians'" is malevolent and the nature of his
analysis is erratic and sloppy. He says the book is full of 'howlers,
contradictions and distortions'.[19] Rustick indicates six instances
in which Karsh gives quotes that say the very opposite of what Karsh
tells his readers they say. As an example he gives a quote of Golda
Meir that Karsh uses to sustain his argument that there was never an
agreement between Abdullah of Transjordan and the Zionist leadership.
In Karsh's quote of Meir she explicitly writes about an agreement:
'The meeting [in November 1947] was conducted on the basis that there
was an arrangement and an understanding as to what both of us wanted
and that our interests did not collide'.[20]
[edit]
HHW
> On Feb 21, 4:18 pm, drahcir <sued...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Although you and Count1 might have already seen it.
>
HAHA!
HHW
Which archives?
DoD
The ones up your ass, peckerneck....
I guess you are losing it.
drahcir
> On Feb 21, 4:18 pm, drahcir <sued...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Karsh's work on the Middle East has received criticism.
Wow, who would have guessed? His work has "received criticism".
Amazing.
This "article", the author of which H doesn't even bother to give us,
and for which he provides no link, is filled with punctuation errors.
leading me to suspect it was pulled from some blog somewhere. This is
beside the point that H has ZERO to say about the topic, which is
Said, or about the article I posted about Said. H apparently had
another brain fart. Sheesh, I hope for the sake of his wife they don't
smell too bad.
HHW
Having trouble finding it?
HHW
Maybe you should choose your material with more discernment.
drahcir
I post an article by well-established authors with a link, on the
topic of the thread, and you, in reply, post bits and pieces of some
poorly written blog without link or even the name of the author (many
blogs don't list author's names, or if they do, it's just a screen
name, like "drahcir"), which doesn't even mention, let alone address,
the article or the topic to which you purport to respond, and you
"think" I should choose my material with more discernment. You need to
cut out that "thinking" stuff. You lost that ability long ago
(presuming you ever had it).
fla...@verizon.net
On 22-Feb-2008, drahcir <sue...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Feb 22, 10:16 am, HHW <coaster132...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > On Feb 22, 8:01 am, drahcir <sued...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > > On Feb 22, 1:39 am, HHW <coaster132...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > > > On Feb 21, 4:18 pm, drahcir <sued...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > > Karsh's work on the Middle East has received criticism.
> >
> > > Wow, who would have guessed? His work has "received criticism".
> > > Amazing.
> > > This "article", the author of which H doesn't even bother to give us,
> > > and for which he provides no link, is filled with punctuation errors.
> > > leading me to suspect it was pulled from some blog somewhere.
Everyone: take note of this ---
> > > This is
> > > beside the point that H has ZERO to say about the topic, which is
> > > Said, or about the article I posted about Said. H apparently had
> > > another brain fart. Sheesh, I hope for the sake of his wife they don't
> > > smell too bad.
> >
> > > In a review of
--- and compare it to this:
Of course.
We can all tell that what he relaly means by "discernment" is
"swallow his bias & make it your own." That's the only
"discernment" he ever uses when discussing *anything*.
> You need to
> cut out that "thinking" stuff. You lost that ability long ago
> (presuming you ever had it).
Obviously.
Susan
dsha...@gmail.com
> Karsh's work on the Middle East has received criticism.
Whose does not? No one has accused him of the gross fabrication which
is Pappe's forte.
Deborah
dsha...@gmail.com
> On Feb 22, 1:39 am, HHW <coaster132...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > On Feb 21, 4:18 pm, drahcir <sued...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Karsh's work on the Middle East has received criticism.
>
> Wow, who would have guessed? His work has "received criticism".
> Amazing.
> This "article", the author of which H doesn't even bother to give us,
> and for which he provides no link, is filled with punctuation errors.
> leading me to suspect it was pulled from some blog somewhere.
Humbert omitted the link, due, no doubt, to his embarassment.
It's the "Criticism" section from the Wiki entry for Efraim Karsh at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Efraim_Karsh#Criticism
>This is
> beside the point that H has ZERO to say about the topic, which is
> Said, or about the article I posted about Said.
Humbert has little to say about anything, because he knows little
about anything.
>H apparently had another brain fart.
That about sums up the contents of his posts. And they're all pretty
feeble brainfarts, at that.
Deborah
dsha...@gmail.com
> > > Karsh's work on the Middle East has received criticism.
> On Feb 22, 8:01 am, drahcir <sued...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > Wow, who would have guessed? His work has "received criticism".
> > Amazing.
> > This "article", the author of which H doesn't even bother to give us,
> > and for which he provides no link, is filled with punctuation errors.
> > leading me to suspect it was pulled from some blog somewhere. This is
> > beside the point that H has ZERO to say about the topic, which is
> > Said, or about the article I posted about Said. H apparently had
> > another brain fart. Sheesh, I hope for the sake of his wife they don't
> > smell too bad.
[snip Humbert's Wiki entry]
On Feb 22, 7:16 am, HHW <coaster132...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Maybe you should choose your material with more discernment.
Maybe Humbert should take his own advice, and, in addition, be honest
enough to admit when he's pasting part of a Wikipedia entry.
Deborah
NefeshBarYohai
Speaking of pasting, some women dance nude with pasties in their
breast.
drahcir
Each time I think this idiot sinks to the lowest level possible,
usually by lying, he surprises me, as with this wiki post, which is,
in fact, a lie of omission (did you notice how it was snipped to
pieces?). It is interesting that rabidness of antisemitism is always
directly proportional to frequency of lying - rA = L , or, if you
prefer, inversely proportional to frequency of telling the truth rA =
1/T (Ratner's first law of nazidynamics) and is directly proportional
to the degree of sexual perversion divided by intelligence - rA = S/I
(Ratner's second law of nazidynamics).
hille...@yahoo.com
> Middle East in 1948 that he writes (p. 97) of "the Arab attack on the
> newly-established State of Israel, in which Transjordan's Arab Legion
> participated." Quite simply, it did not.
Have you *ever* talked with anybody who had fought, on either side,
in this cursed war? I did. The Legion was the best military force.
People
who know the history, first hand, know about Gush Etzion, Radar Hill,
the Old City of Jerusalem, Latrune and Gezer. At least learn where
those places are before opening your big and silly mouth about
this issue again.
DoD
I found what I was looking for. In fact it was pretty good, although
it was just a part of Martin Kramers book Ivory Towers on Sand.
Rereading it, I think that Kramer went really light on Said...
HHW
This is precisely on-topic:
On Feb 22, 9:32 am, drahcir <sued...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Feb 22, 10:16 am, HHW <coaster132...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Informed Comment
Thoughts on the Middle East, History, and Religion
Juan Cole is President of the Global Americana Institute
Thursday, October 12, 2006
Wikipedia, Karsh and Cole
An encyclopedia article should be an objective accounting of a
person's life and work. The wikipedia entry on me is constantly being
distorted by a small group of far rightwing activists who put the
comments of my ideological critics up into the body in an attempt to
discredit me.
I never replied to the smear of me gotten up by Marty Peretz of the
New Republic and carried out by a far rightwing Israeli historian
named Ephraim Karsh, some time ago. It was beneath contempt.
Karsh used scurrilous propaganda techniques, attempting to insinuate
that my criticisms of the Neconservative clique in the Bush
administration are somehow like believing in the forged "Protocols of
the Elders of Zion." Of course, he put the insinuation in the
negative, so as to protect himself from criticism. No serious person
who knows me or my work would credit his outrageous insinuations for a
moment.
Karsh charged that I am innocent of the 20th and 21st century history
of the Middle East because much of my writing had been on earlier
periods.
But in fact I have formally published in refereed academic venues on
the Taliban, on September 11, the Ayatollahs of Iraq and democracy, on
the historiography of the Muslim Brotherhood, on the Salafi leader
Rashid Rida and many other twentieth century and twenty-first century
subjects. My book, Sacred Space and Holy War contains chapters on the
twentieth-century history of the Arab Shiites and on the modernity of
the Islamic Republic of Iran and I have also published a chapter at
McGill University Press on the treatment of religious minorities by
the Islamic Republic, especially in the 1990s and early zeroes.
In addition to my writing on academic 20th century and contemporary
topics, which has been extensive, I have published a raft of op-eds on
contemporary affairs in the Washington Post, the Los Angeles Times,
Salon.com, the Guardian, the San Francisco Chronicle, the St.
Petersburg Times, etc., etc. I am a sought-after commentator in the
media on contemporary Middle Eastern affairs, which I follow on a
daily basis, having made appearances on the Lehrer News Hour,
Nightline, ABC Evening News, the Today Show, Anderson Cooper, Wolf
Blitzer, CNN Headline News, etc., etc. The news professionals are in
no doubt of my expertise on the up to the minute happenings in the
region.
I am a person of wide personal experience with the late twentieth
century and contemporary Middle East. I worked as a newspaperman in
Beirut in the late 1970s. I lived for several years in Cairo. I lived
in Amman, Jordan. I lived and traveled widely in Pakistan and India. I
have continued to visit the region frequently in the past 15 years,
keeping in touch with the pulse of opinion and changing local views. I
don't need to do that through interpreters. I speak fluent colloquial
Arabic, Urdu and Persian, and can get around in Turkish.
I have written a lot about the earlier history of the Middle East and
will go on doing so. But Karsh's attempt to paint me as a dusty
antiquarian is simply implausible.
You will note, moreover, that a medievalist like Bernard Lewis, who
for the most part wrote about the early Muslim period or the Ottoman
Empire, is lionized by people like Karsh when he writes about current
affairs. Lewis's experience on the ground in the Arab world is minimal
compared to my own.
posted by Juan Cole @ 10/12/2006 0
If I recall correctly the material below came from Wiki. Of course you
could have found out easily by doing a search of most any phrase. But
then you wouldn't have been able to bleat so piteously. Don't you
especially like Benny Morris on Karsh?
> > > > Karsh's work on the Middle East has received criticism.
>
> > > Wow, who would have guessed? His work has "received criticism".
> > > Amazing.
> > > This "article", the author of which H doesn't even bother to give us,
> > > and for which he provides no link, is filled with punctuation errors.
> > > leading me to suspect it was pulled from some blog somewhere. This is
> > > beside the point that H has ZERO to say about the topic, which is
> > > Said, or about the article I posted about Said. H apparently had
> > > another brain fart. Sheesh, I hope for the sake of his wife they don't
> > > smell too bad.
Charming, Ratner. You're again getting your butt kicked.
Informed Comment
Thoughts on the Middle East, History, and Religion
Juan Cole is President of the Global Americana Institute
Thursday, October 12, 2006
Wikipedia, Karsh and Cole
An encyclopedia article should be an objective accounting of a
person's life and work. The wikipedia entry on me is constantly being
distorted by a small group of far rightwing activists who put the
comments of my ideological critics up into the body in an attempt to
discredit me.
I never replied to the smear of me gotten up by Marty Peretz of the
New Republic and carried out by a far rightwing Israeli historian
named Ephraim Karsh, some time ago. It was beneath contempt.
Karsh used scurrilous propaganda techniques, attempting to insinuate
that my criticisms of the Neconservative clique in the Bush
administration are somehow like believing in the forged "Protocols of
the Elders of Zion." Of course, he put the insinuation in the
negative, so as to protect himself from criticism. No serious person
who knows me or my work would credit his outrageous insinuations for a
moment.
Karsh charged that I am innocent of the 20th and 21st century history
of the Middle East because much of my writing had been on earlier
periods.
But in fact I have formally published in refereed academic venues on
the Taliban, on September 11, the Ayatollahs of Iraq and democracy, on
the historiography of the Muslim Brotherhood, on the Salafi leader
Rashid Rida and many other twentieth century and twenty-first century
subjects. My book, Sacred Space and Holy War contains chapters on the
twentieth-century history of the Arab Shiites and on the modernity of
the Islamic Republic of Iran and I have also published a chapter at
McGill University Press on the treatment of religious minorities by
the Islamic Republic, especially in the 1990s and early zeroes.
In addition to my writing on academic 20th century and contemporary
topics, which has been extensive, I have published a raft of op-eds on
contemporary affairs in the Washington Post, the Los Angeles Times,
Salon.com, the Guardian, the San Francisco Chronicle, the St.
Petersburg Times, etc., etc. I am a sought-after commentator in the
media on contemporary Middle Eastern affairs, which I follow on a
daily basis, having made appearances on the Lehrer News Hour,
Nightline, ABC Evening News, the Today Show, Anderson Cooper, Wolf
Blitzer, CNN Headline News, etc., etc. The news professionals are in
no doubt of my expertise on the up to the minute happenings in the
region.
I am a person of wide personal experience with the late twentieth
century and contemporary Middle East. I worked as a newspaperman in
Beirut in the late 1970s. I lived for several years in Cairo. I lived
in Amman, Jordan. I lived and traveled widely in Pakistan and India. I
have continued to visit the region frequently in the past 15 years,
keeping in touch with the pulse of opinion and changing local views. I
don't need to do that through interpreters. I speak fluent colloquial
Arabic, Urdu and Persian, and can get around in Turkish.
I have written a lot about the earlier history of the Middle East and
will go on doing so. But Karsh's attempt to paint me as a dusty
antiquarian is simply implausible.
You will note, moreover, that a medievalist like Bernard Lewis, who
for the most part wrote about the early Muslim period or the Ottoman
Empire, is lionized by people like Karsh when he writes about current
affairs. Lewis's experience on the ground in the Arab world is minimal
compared to my own.
posted by Juan Cole @ 10/12/2006 0
HHW
Karsh has a record. That makes you sad as it's difficult to use him in
polite company.Back to baking and rearing wombats.
HHW
Bugger off Rosen.
HHW
What are you saying here Edward M. Rosen?
HHW
Look it up yourself, Rosen. Not an extra key stroke for either you or
Ratner.
HHW
Bugger off, Yochai. Pasties are Cornish high cuisine.
HHW
Haave you anything to say about the actual quotes in the Wike snip?
No? Oh.
DoD
It is funny watching a supposed man of education be a troll.
HHW
> On Feb 21, 10:39 pm, HHW <coaster132...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > It is a measure of Karsh's ignorance of what actually went on in the
> > Middle East in 1948 that he writes (p. 97) of "the Arab attack on the
> > newly-established State of Israel, in which Transjordan's Arab Legion
> > participated." Quite simply, it did not.
>
> Have you *ever* talked with anybody who had fought, on either side,
> in this cursed war? I did. The Legion was the best military force.
Go ahead, tell us what the author means.
> People
> who know the history, first hand, know about Gush Etzion, Radar Hill,
> the Old City of Jerusalem, Latrune and Gezer. At least learn where
> those places are before opening your big and silly mouth about
> this issue again.
And, go ahead, tell us what you mean. I just picked up a Wiki passage
on Ephraim Karsh. I'm supposed to vouch for every word in it? Hardly,
I'm just giving Ratner another kick down his fetid burrow.
HHW
Post it, idiot.
DoD
Only if someone else wants it.
DoD
Hahhahahahaha!!!!!! After what you have displayed here on these
newsgoups, I am convinced that you could walk down the street with a
booger hanging from your nose and you wouldn't be embarrassed by it.
dsha...@gmail.com
> > It is a measure of Karsh's ignorance of what actually went on in the
> > Middle East in 1948 that he writes (p. 97) of "the Arab attack on the
> > newly-established State of Israel, in which Transjordan's Arab Legion
> > participated." Quite simply, it did not.
On Feb 22, 11:00 am, hillelg...@yahoo.com wrote:
> Have you *ever* talked with anybody who had fought, on either side,
> in this cursed war?
Clearly not. Not only has Humbert never talked with anyone who fought,
on either side, in that war, he's obviously never read anything about
it.
Quite simply, the Transjordians Arab Legion was not only the best Arab
military force in that war, it was the ONLY professional military
force and the only force -- on either side -- which actually achieved
its objective, which was to prevent the creation of a second Arab
state in western Palestine.
>I did. The Legion was the best military force.
> People
> who know the history, first hand, know about Gush Etzion, Radar Hill,
> the Old City of Jerusalem, Latrune and Gezer. At least learn where
> those places are before opening your big and silly mouth about
> this issue again.
Humbert is an excellent exemplar of the saying, "It is better to keep
your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool, than to open it
and remove all doubt."
Deborah
dsha...@gmail.com
> This is precisely on-topic:
> Juan Cole is President of the Global Americana Institute
> Thursday, October 12, 2006
> Wikipedia, Karsh and Cole
> An encyclopedia article should be an objective accounting of a
> person's life and work. The wikipedia entry on me is constantly being
> distorted by a small group of far rightwing activists who put the
> comments of my ideological critics up into the body in an attempt to
> discredit me.
> I never replied to the smear of me gotten up by Marty Peretz of the
> New Republic and carried out by a far rightwing Israeli historian
> named Ephraim Karsh, some time ago. It was beneath contempt.
In fact, Cole replied to it on his own blog, with his usual
circumlocutions and distortions. Karsh's criticisms appeared the the
NR online; had Cole responded to that, he would have had to present
evidence for his statements -- as Karsh did. Moreover, Cole's response
would have allowed Karsh to engage Cole in debate, and that's, no
doubt, the last thing Cole cared for. Therefore, Cole replied on his
blog, where he has absolute control, can block any response, and is
under no compulsion to present any evidence for his statements. Thus,
Cole is as free to lie, as usual, just like Humbert.
Deborah
dsha...@gmail.com
> Karsh has a record.
An excellent one--unlike Humbert, and Humbert's personal deity, Pappe.
Deborah
dsha...@gmail.com
> > > Karsh's work on the Middle East has received criticism.
> > Whose does not? No one has accused him of the gross fabrication which
> > is Pappe's forte.
> > Deborah
On Feb 22, 1:04 pm, HHW <coaster132...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Bugger off Rosen.
Excusez-moi? Is Humbert the kiddly-diddling hick lawyer horny for
boymeat again?
Deborah
dsha...@gmail.com
> > > > Karsh's work on the Middle East has received criticism.
On Feb 22, 1:06 pm, HHW <coaster132...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> What are you saying here Edward M. Rosen?
QED.
Deborah
dsha...@gmail.com
> > > > > > Karsh's work on the Middle East has received criticism.
> > > > On Feb 22, 8:01 am, drahcir <sued...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > Wow, who would have guessed? His work has "received criticism".
> > > > > Amazing.
> > > > > This "article", the author of which H doesn't even bother to give us,
> > > > > and for which he provides no link, is filled with punctuation errors.
> > > > > leading me to suspect it was pulled from some blog somewhere. This is
> > > > > beside the point that H has ZERO to say about the topic, which is
> > > > > Said, or about the article I posted about Said. H apparently had
> > > > > another brain fart. Sheesh, I hope for the sake of his wife they don't
> > > > > smell too bad.
>
> > > [snip Humbert's Wiki entry]
>
> > > On Feb 22, 7:16 am, HHW <coaster132...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > > Maybe you should choose your material with more discernment.
> > > Maybe Humbert should take his own advice, and, in addition, be honest
> > > enough to admit when he's pasting part of a Wikipedia entry.
> > > Deborah
> On Feb 22, 11:20 am, NefeshBarYohai <tach...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > Speaking of pasting, some women dance nude with pasties in their
> > breast.
On Feb 22, 1:09 pm, HHW <coaster132...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Bugger off, Yochai. Pasties are Cornish high cuisine.
Hunter Hugh Watson finds pasties high cuisine, but only when they're
on the nipples of prepubescent Mexican children.
Deborah
dsha...@gmail.com
> > > It is a measure of Karsh's ignorance of what actually went on in the
> > > Middle East in 1948 that he writes (p. 97) of "the Arab attack on the
> > > newly-established State of Israel, in which Transjordan's Arab Legion
> > > participated." Quite simply, it did not.
> On Feb 22, 1:00 pm, hillelg...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > Have you *ever* talked with anybody who had fought, on either side,
> > in this cursed war? I did. The Legion was the best military force.
On Feb 22, 1:14 pm, HHW <coaster132...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Go ahead, tell us what the author means.
> > People
> > who know the history, first hand, know about Gush Etzion, Radar Hill,
> > the Old City of Jerusalem, Latrune and Gezer. At least learn where
> > those places are before opening your big and silly mouth about
> > this issue again.
> And, go ahead, tell us what you mean. I just picked up a Wiki passage
> on Ephraim Karsh. I'm supposed to vouch for every word in it? Hardly,
Ergo, Humbert doesn't care whether his posts are factual or not.
Usually they're not, but that's not Humbert's fault, because he's too
ignorant of the subject to know where he's posts err, too lazy to
check them, and too much of a Jew hater to care.
Shades of RLA.
Deborah
hille...@yahoo.com
> > > Middle East in 1948 that he writes (p. 97) of "the Arab attack on the
> > > newly-established State of Israel, in which Transjordan's Arab Legion
> > > participated." Quite simply, it did not.
> > People
> > who know the history, first hand, know about Gush Etzion, Radar Hill,
> > the Old City of Jerusalem, Latrune and Gezer. At least learn where
> > those places are before opening your big and silly mouth about
> > this issue again.
On Feb 22, 1:14 pm, HHW <coaster132...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> And, go ahead, tell us what you mean.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gush_Etzion
"On May 13, a massive attack involving parts of two Arab
Legion infantry companies, light artillery"
www.zionism-israel.com/his/Israel_war_independence_1948_timeline.htm
"Jordan Legion attack retakes Radar station (now called
'Radar Hill'). 19 Israeli dead. Jordanians lose 2 dead."
www.zionism-israel.com/his/Israel_war_independence_1948_timeline.htm
"Jewish quarter of the old city of Jerusalem falls to the Jordan
Legion."
...............................
"About 300 Haganah defenders were taken prisoner and sent to Jordan."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latrun
"Just 10 days after the declaration of Israel, on May 24,
1948, the fort was assaulted by combined forces of Israel's
newly-created 7th Brigade, and a battalion of the Alexandroni
Brigade (where Ariel Sharon served as a platoon commander;
he was wounded with most of his platoon and later recalled the
decision to retreat to a nearby vale as the most crucial tactical
decision of his life). The attack (codenamed 'Bin-Nun A') failed,
with heavy casualties. A week later, on June 1st, the fort
withstood yet another attack ('Bin-Nun B'), even though its
outer defences were breached."
www.zionism-israel.com/his/Israel_war_independence_1948_timeline.htm
"Gezer captured by Transjordan Legion, 27 killed, 31 civilians taken
prisoner."
> I just picked up a Wiki passage on Ephraim Karsh.
Wikipedia is for people who know a subject. It has
good summaries, but it is not always correct. If you don't
know enough about a subject to detect bullshit then don't
use it.
> I'm supposed to vouch for every word in it?
If you have no idea if it is true or not, why even bring it?!
drahcir
> This is precisely on-topic:
Oh, now you want a second chance? Very well. It, too, is meaningless.
You obviously forgot what the topic is. It is Edward Said. Please take
your meds.
P.S. I skimmed the below in spite of the fact that it is irrelevant to
the present topic. I don't know who this guy is, but he sure is an
incredible crybaby.
Have you ever stopped to notice your habit of convincing yourself in
print that you are winning a debate? Things like "you're in a corner"
or "you're getting your butt kicked". H, that just public masturbation
and it's really a revoltingly disgusting habit of yours. It's drawing
attention to the sad fact that you are an impotent weakling. You want
so desperately to see someone say in print that you are winning that
you supply that print yourself. Does it make you feel good, H? Maybe
you should try some vaseline.
> In addition to my writing on academic 20th century and contemporary ...
>
> read more »
drahcir
So now it's a "wike snip" - HHWspeak for having snipped to shreds a
wiki article that was worthless to start with, and which he didn't
even have the courage to cite. The answer to your question is no,
because they are off topic. This is the way it works, H. You request
an article from DoD about Edward Said, whom you have been blabbing
about. You have also been blabbing about how you have read so much of
his work and how much you respect him. I post a very recent article
about him expecting you to attempt to refute it, and all you can do is
post wikipedia entries about the author. That's infantile. The ball is
in your court. After you post your refutation of the article I posted,
maybe, if you say pretty please, I'll give you a sentence or two on
you wiki bullshit. How you could even ask me such a thing when you,
the Said expert, have not one word to say about my post is truly
beyond my comprehension.
drahcir
I can only speak for myself. I was not interested in it enough to find
out whether it was from some blog or wiki or whatever - it was so
obviously poorly written, that I figured there was a very good reason
that you didn't cite the origin or even the author. I was right.
drahcir
Someone please give H a word of commendation - he so wants to hear
that he is kicking my butt. Why all this interest in my butt anyway, H?
dsha...@gmail.com
> > > > It is a measure of Karsh's ignorance of what actually went on in the
> > > > Middle East in 1948 that he writes (p. 97) of "the Arab attack on the
> > > > newly-established State of Israel, in which Transjordan's Arab Legion
> > > > participated." Quite simply, it did not.
> > On Feb 22, 1:00 pm, hillelg...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > > Have you *ever* talked with anybody who had fought, on either side,
> > > in this cursed war? I did. The Legion was the best military force.
> On Feb 22, 4:14 pm, HHW <coaster132...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Go ahead, tell us what the author means.
> > > People
> > > who know the history, first hand, know about Gush Etzion, Radar Hill,
> > > the Old City of Jerusalem, Latrune and Gezer. At least learn where
> > > those places are before opening your big and silly mouth about
> > > this issue again.
> > And, go ahead, tell us what you mean. I just picked up a Wiki passage
> > on Ephraim Karsh. I'm supposed to vouch for every word in it? Hardly,
> > I'm just giving Ratner another kick down his fetid burrow.
On Feb 22, 3:48 pm, drahcir <sued...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Someone please give H a word of commendation -
Why? For trying in an obscure sort of way to prove that his rubbish
that the Arab Legion did not fight in the war is more of Humbert's
usual rubbish?
>he so wants to hear that he is kicking my butt.
No, he doesn't. He hears all the confirmation he needs from the voices
in his head.
>Why all this interest in my butt anyway, H?
He hasn't made one of his trips to Mexico, recently, to bugger little
Mexican kids, perhaps.
Deborah
Mirelle
Here you go, "Deborah Sharavi" AKA
Rosen The Frozen In The
Lederhosen,
here is the name of the man to get a hold of,
concerning your abuse of
their IP:
Mt. Hood Community College
26000 SE Stark St.
Gresham, OR 97030
503-491-6422
www.mhcc.edu
Bill Snyder.
e-mail: bill.snyder @ mhcc.edu
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
To refresh your memory, here is the thread titled:
"Zionazi Deborah Sharavi posts from Mt. Hood Community College in
Gresham, Oregon"
Here is the link to the thread:
http://tinyurl.com/3d93he
Hey, maybe the college will lay charges!
Go a head now, give Bill Snyder a call or e-mail him.
I am sure he would love to hear from you, Rosen!
Mirelle
Mirelle
Here you go, "Deborah Sharavi" AKA
Rosen The Frozen In The Lederhosen,
here is the name of the man to get a hold of,
concerning your abuse of
their IP:
Mt. Hood Community College
26000 SE Stark St.
Gresham, OR 97030
503-491-6422
www.mhcc.edu
Bill Snyder.
e-mail: bill.snyder @ mhcc.edu
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
To refresh your memory, here is the thread titled:
"Zionazi Deborah Sharavi posts from Mt. Hood Community College in
Gresham, Oregon"
Here is the link to the thread:
http://tinyurl.com/3d93he
Hey, maybe the college will lay charges!
Go a head now, give Bill Snyder a call or e-mail him.
I am sure he would love to hear from you, Rosen!
Mirelle
dsha...@gmail.com
> Here you go, "Deborah Sharavi" AKA
> Rosen The Frozen In The
> Lederhosen,
> here is the name of the man to get a hold of,
> concerning your abuse of
> their IP:
> Mt. Hood Community College
> 26000 SE Stark St.
> Gresham, OR 97030
> 503-491-6422www.mhcc.edu
> Bill Snyder.
> e-mail: bill.snyder @ mhcc.edu
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
So, Vera, why did you have to go to all that fuss, when your computer
genius son is the CEO of a world-class cyber tech security company?
Couldn't Junior have answered the question for you?
And is Bill Snyder the same person who told you that you were in touch
with "Gresham University in Portland, Oregon," and that I'm the same
person as Ed Rosen, the victim of your criminal harassment?
ROTFLOL! You're so full of it, Vera. Now run along and take your
meds.
Deborah
dsha...@gmail.com
> Here you go, "Deborah Sharavi" AKA
> Rosen The Frozen In The
> Lederhosen,
> here is the name of the man to get a hold of,
> concerning your abuse of
> their IP:
> Mt. Hood Community College
> 26000 SE Stark St.
> Gresham, OR 97030
> 503-491-6422www.mhcc.edu
> Bill Snyder.
> e-mail: bill.snyder @ mhcc.edu
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
So, Vera, why did you have to go to all that fuss, when your computer
drahcir
> On Feb 22, 1:52 pm, "dshar...@gmail.com" <dshar...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Here you go, "Deborah Sharavi" AKA
> Rosen The Frozen In The
> Lederhosen,
> here is the name of the man to get a hold of,
> concerning your abuse of
> their IP:
> Mt. Hood Community College
> 26000 SE Stark St.
> Gresham, OR 97030
> 503-491-6422www.mhcc.edu
>
> Bill Snyder.
> e-mail: bill.snyder @ mhcc.edu
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> To refresh your memory, here is the thread titled:
> "Zionazi Deborah Sharavi posts from Mt. Hood Community College in
> Gresham, Oregon"
> Here is the link to the thread:http://tinyurl.com/3d93he
>
> Hey, maybe the college will lay charges!
> Go a head now, give Bill Snyder a call or e-mail him.
> I am sure he would love to hear from you, Rosen!
>
> Mirelle
sheesh, you poor creature, get a life
HHW
> > On Feb 21, 10:39 pm, HHW <coaster132...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > It is a measure of Karsh's ignorance of what actually went on in the
> > > Middle East in 1948 that he writes (p. 97) of "the Arab attack on the
> > > newly-established State of Israel, in which Transjordan's Arab Legion
> > > participated." Quite simply, it did not.
Bugger off Rosen. Wiki said that, not HHW. It's up to Hillel to
respond with allusions to "Radar Hill," etc.
> On Feb 22, 11:00 am, hillelg...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> > Have you *ever* talked with anybody who had fought, on either side,
> > in this cursed war?
Why so cursed? Israel succeeded in accomplishing her central goal in
going to war against the Palestinian people, a massive ethnic
cleansing and theft of Palestinian land, standing crops and other
assets right down to the pitiful peasant farmers' savings accounts.
She must have thought six thousand dead were well worth it for she
surely did not expect to be able to perpetrate such a crime without
losses. They knew the Arabs would fight back. Ben-Gurion anticipated
it if I recall correctly. The history of aggressive political
ideologies shows that one can't make an omelette without breaking
eggs. Look at the size of the Nazi and Soviet Omelettes! And we
Americans have lost far more than you in all your wars combined in our
Middle Eastern adventures, largely if not exclusively on your behalf.
>
> Clearly not. Not only has Humbert never talked with anyone who fought,
> on either side, in that war, he's obviously never read anything about
> it.
A very stupid observation built on an equally stupid false premise. Of
course I haven't spoken to anyone who fought in that war. Virtually no
one over here has. We still run a foreign policy to the extent it is
not dictated by Zionist pressure groups. We read books, journal
articles, news accounts, etc. What the hell do you expect us to do?
You're a fallen-away American, Rosen. You should be ashamed of that
defiled American flag.
>
> Quite simply, the Transjordians Arab Legion was not only the best Arab
> military force in that war, it was the ONLY professional military
> force and the only force -- on either side -- which actually achieved
> its objective, which was to prevent the creation of a second Arab
> state in western Palestine.
>
> >I did. The Legion was the best military force.
So what? Today, Hezbollah infantry are better than the Legion and
easily as good as the IDF man for man if not better in terms of
everything except sophisticated heavy weaponry. Even given the latter
Israel can not win this war.
> > People
> > who know the history, first hand, know about Gush Etzion, Radar Hill,
> > the Old City of Jerusalem, Latrune and Gezer. At least learn where
> > those places are before opening your big and silly mouth about
> > this issue again.
Wiki opened its mouth. Take it up with management. You know what I
think of your War of Independence. It was fought against Arab
*regulars* who intervened in Palestine precisely because since
December, 1947, you had been driving what would ultimately be three
quarters of a million Arabs from their homes. If you had accepted the
UN partition it is very unlikely it would have been necessary. You
brought it on yourselves. You're responsible for your 6,000 casualties
in that "cursed war," that Zionist war of aggression. The occupation
of the West Bank in 1967 was simply more of the same policy in another
war of discretion. Then came the settlement program only five weeks
later, an obvious land grab which no subtlety, no clever formulation,
can obscure. Then come the apartheid wall. And throughout the
pressures on the Palestinians to leave. And throughout we're paying
for it and destroying our credibility world wide by supporting
virtually every crime committed.
HHW
Why are you afraid of posting the article by or about Edward Said,
David? Why the fear?
Why don't you defend your FrontPage article which I dissected in ten
minutes? You article's author is incompetent. I showed you precisely
why. What do you do? You run off announcing that you'll find an
article which (implicitly) discredits Professor Said. Then you say
you've found but can't show it to us. Why is that, David? It's got
something to do with that same fear, that deep knowledge of inadequacy
and vulnerability.
HHW
In this venue "troll" is an honorific.
HHW
> On Feb 22, 1:01 pm, HHW <coaster132...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > This is precisely on-topic:
> > Juan Cole is President of the Global Americana Institute
> > Thursday, October 12, 2006
> > Wikipedia, Karsh and Cole
> > An encyclopedia article should be an objective accounting of a
> > person's life and work. The wikipedia entry on me is constantly being
> > distorted by a small group of far rightwing activists who put the
> > comments of my ideological critics up into the body in an attempt to
> > discredit me.
> > I never replied to the smear of me gotten up by Marty Peretz of the
> > New Republic and carried out by a far rightwing Israeli historian
> > named Ephraim Karsh, some time ago. It was beneath contempt.
Rosen can't face Cole's article so he clips it. Here it is again for
the convenience of the readership:
Informed Comment
Thoughts on the Middle East, History, and Religion
Juan Cole is President of the Global Americana Institute
Thursday, October 12, 2006
Wikipedia, Karsh and Cole
An encyclopedia article should be an objective accounting of a
person's life and work. The wikipedia entry on me is constantly being
distorted by a small group of far rightwing activists who put the
comments of my ideological critics up into the body in an attempt to
discredit me.
I never replied to the smear of me gotten up by Marty Peretz of the
New Republic and carried out by a far rightwing Israeli historian
named Ephraim Karsh, some time ago. It was beneath contempt.
>
> In fact, Cole replied to it on his own blog,
Why should he dignify NR, a blatant, terminally biased Israel Lobby
rag. Why didn't Karsh reply to him there? What divine right has he to
determine the venue? If Cole was to reply at all he could do it
anywhere he pleased, obviously.
with his usual
> circumlocutions and distortions.
Point the out, Rosen. You don't give a damn what you say here. You
make it up as you go along.
Karsh's criticisms appeared the the
> NR online; had Cole responded to that, he would have had to present
> evidence for his statements -- as Karsh did.
Haha. Evidence.
Moreover, Cole's response
> would have allowed Karsh to engage Cole in debate, and that's, no
> doubt, the last thing Cole cared for.
You are presuming that karsh replied on Cole's blog and was rejected.
I don't believe. I don't even believe that NR would have permitted
Cole to respond. It denied Pappe the right to respond to Morris. That
rag is not governed by journalistic standards when Israel is
concerned.
Therefore, Cole replied on his
> blog, where he has absolute control, can block any response, and is
> under no compulsion to present any evidence for his statements. Thus,
> Cole is as free to lie, as usual, just like Humbert.
Point out the lies, Rosen. Prove that Karsh was rejected the right to
reply on Cole's blog. You are hyper slimy.
>
> Deborah
HHW
Fool. I'm coming to like Morris more and more. I recall your sock,
Deborah, declaiming about how much "she" loved Benny Morris. You,
Rosen, didn't even know that he was one of the "new Historians." You
had no knowledge of his work.
HHW
All printed and put in a safe place.
Mirelle
http://s250.photobucket.com/albums/gg261/nesorde123/?action=view¤t=EdwardMRosen.jpg
What nerve Rosen, to desecrate the American flag.
It is illegal to do so in America, Rosen.
Yo are a traitor to your host country, Rosen.
Mirelle
HHW
> > > > It is a measure of Karsh's ignorance of what actually went on in the
> > > > Middle East in 1948 that he writes (p. 97) of "the Arab attack on the
> > > > newly-established State of Israel, in which Transjordan's Arab Legion
> > > > participated." Quite simply, it did not.
Did the Arab Legion attack Israel when it attacked Gush Etzion?
> > > People
> > > who know the history, first hand, know about Gush Etzion, Radar Hill,
> > > the Old City of Jerusalem, Latrune and Gezer. At least learn where
> > > those places are before opening your big and silly mouth about
> > > this issue again.
"On November 29, 1947, the United Nations approved the Partition Plan.
The (Gush Etzion) bloc fell within the area allotted to the Arab
state, but the Haganah command decided not to evacuate the
bloc." (From your Wiki citation) Why not, Hillel? You had accepted the
partition.
>
> On Feb 22, 1:14 pm, HHW <coaster132...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > And, go ahead, tell us what you mean.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gush_Etzion
> "On May 13, a massive attack involving parts of two Arab
> Legion infantry companies, light artillery"
"On November 29, 1947, the United Nations approved the Partition Plan.
The (Gush Etzion) bloc fell within the area allotted to the Arab
state, but the Haganah command decided not to evacuate the
bloc." (From your Wiki citation)
>
> www.zionism-israel.com/his/Israel_war_independence_1948_timeline.htm
> "Jordan Legion attack retakes Radar station (now called
> 'Radar Hill'). 19 Israeli dead. Jordanians lose 2 dead."
>
> www.zionism-israel.com/his/Israel_war_independence_1948_timeline.htm
> "Jewish quarter of the old city of Jerusalem falls to the Jordan
> Legion."
> ...............................
> "About 300 Haganah defenders were taken prisoner and sent to Jordan."
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latrun
> "Just 10 days after the declaration of Israel, on May 24,
> 1948, the fort was assaulted by combined forces of Israel's
> newly-created 7th Brigade, and a battalion of the Alexandroni
> Brigade (where Ariel Sharon served as a platoon commander;
> he was wounded with most of his platoon and later recalled the
> decision to retreat to a nearby vale as the most crucial tactical
> decision of his life). The attack (codenamed 'Bin-Nun A') failed,
> with heavy casualties. A week later, on June 1st, the fort
> withstood yet another attack ('Bin-Nun B'), even though its
> outer defences were breached."
"As the last British troops departed from Palestine Mandate on May
14, 1948, the fort was occupied by the Transjordanian Arab Legion."
Had the Latrun Fort been allocated to the Israelis in the partition.
Why was Sharon's unit attacking it?
>
> www.zionism-israel.com/his/Israel_war_independence_1948_timeline.htm
> "Gezer captured by Transjordan Legion, 27 killed, 31 civilians taken
> prisoner."
>
> > I just picked up a Wiki passage on Ephraim Karsh.
>
> Wikipedia is for people who know a subject. It has
> good summaries, but it is not always correct. If you don't
> know enough about a subject to detect bullshit then don't
> use it.
Amusing. You use it. So I'll use it. Feel free to detect the bullshit
yourself.
>
> > I'm supposed to vouch for every word in it?
>
> If you have no idea if it is true or not, why even bring it?!
If you don't like it, dispute the point. I don't much care about the
outcome of these details anyhow. You've got some problems here
stemming from never having declared your own boundaries except when
you accepted partition.
hille...@yahoo.com
> Did the Arab Legion attack Israel when it attacked Gush Etzion?
Do you have some reading problems?
> >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gush_Etzion
> > "On May 13, a massive attack involving parts of two Arab
> > Legion infantry companies, light artillery"
There was no Israel in May 13, 1948.
You should know at least that much.
> "On November 29, 1947, the United Nations approved the Partition Plan.
> The (Gush Etzion) bloc fell within the area allotted to the Arab
> state, but the Haganah command decided not to evacuate the
> bloc." (From your Wiki citation) Why not, Hillel? You had accepted the
> partition.
So?
Your, and the Arabs', idea was that ethnic cleansing,
but only of Jews, comes with the territory. The Jews
did not accept that.
> > Wikipedia is for people who know a subject. It has
> > good summaries, but it is not always correct. If you don't
> > know enough about a subject to detect bullshit then don't
> > use it.
> Amusing. You use it.
I cut & paste summaries when they are correct.
I don't use it as the source of my knowledge.
I did not check what Wikipedia had to say about
Gezer before I mentioned that.
> > If you have no idea if it is true or not, why even bring it?!
> If you don't like it, dispute the point.
Make a point that has something to do with reality
first.
HHW
> On Feb 22, 4:01 pm, HHW <coaster132...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > This is precisely on-topic:
>
> Oh, now you want a second chance? Very well. It, too, is meaningless.
> You obviously forgot what the topic is. It is Edward Said. Please take
> your meds.
It's also Karsh. That mistake was made by you.
>
> P.S. I skimmed the below in spite of the fact that it is irrelevant to
> the present topic. I don't know who this guy is, but he sure is an
> incredible crybaby.
I'm not surprised you don't know him. It's another confirmation that
you're naught but an ignorant hatchet artist, a waste water treatment
specialist. He is Professor Juan Cole of the University of Michigan.
His blog is called "Informed Comment" His academic specialty is the
Middle East and South Asia. He deals with Karsh, your slimy expert.
I'm sure you didn't want to learn much of that, hence the skimming
you've done.
You're an ignoramous, Ratner.
Things like "you're in a corner"
> or "you're getting your butt kicked".
Whenever I've said it's been happening. And more often than that, too.
You simply don't dare address the issues.
H, that just public masturbation
> and it's really a revoltingly disgusting habit of yours. It's drawing
> attention to the sad fact that you are an impotent weakling. You want
> so desperately to see someone say in print that you are winning that
> you supply that print yourself. Does it make you feel good, H? Maybe
> you should try some vaseline.
The merits, Ratner. The more you bleat like this the more it's obvious
that you can't address them.
Poor thing, you haven't been given a link. Just the famed scholar's
name and the title of his blog. Find your own link.
or even the name of the author (many
> > > blogs don't list author's names, or if they do, it's just a screen
> > > name, like "drahcir"), which doesn't even mention, let alone address,
> > > the article or the topic to which you purport to respond, and you
> > > "think" I should choose my material with more discernment. You need to
> > > cut out that "thinking" stuff. You lost that ability long ago
> > > (presuming you ever had it).
Here's the ID, right below. Look him up. He posts most every day. His
blog is large and filled with probative material.
DoD
I guess you just want to make sure you fit in with the crowd of Jew
hating fools eh?
They are coming out with a new show with you in mind, It is called...
DoD
No fear.
> Why don't you defend your FrontPage article which I dissected in ten
> minutes?
You didn't dissect anything. You just paraded more of your Jew hating
idiocy on
this newsgroup
>You article's author is incompetent. I showed you precisely
> why.
Why you are a nitwit.
> What do you do? You run off announcing that you'll find an
> article which (implicitly) discredits Professor Said.
Which it does.
> Then you say
> you've found but can't show it to us. Why is that, David?
Listen, moron... You have a reading comprehension problem. I said
if anyone else wants to see it, I will post it. I already said who the
author was.
It would take two minutes to find it....
It's got
> something to do with that same fear, that deep knowledge of inadequacy
> and vulnerability.
It has to do with I am not doing anything for a lying moron like
yourself, you silly old imitation
Archie Bunker.
David