Hindu Religion's Role in Indian Child Prostitution -- Devadasi System
Seeker
In addition to the ways that poverty directs hundreds of thousands of Indian
women to prostitution, there are also various religious forces at play.
These religious aspects of the commercial sex trade frequently overlap with
the basic survival needs created by poverty and its constraints; but it is
in this dimension that Indian prostitution is distinctly different from
prostitution in the West. Indian women, whose poverty seems to leave them no
alternative other than to sell their bodies, understand, in accordance with
their Hindu faith, that their fate has been determined by forces greater
than themselves. In response, the women commit themselves to prostitution as
a religious appeasement of those forces.
The most traditional, systemic role religion plays in prostitution is
through the Devdasi system.(source: The word 'devdasi' denotes one who is a
servant of god (dev=god, das=servant). In India, the term has come to be
exclusively reserved for those whose religious service is prostitution. In
the Bombay metropolitan area, with a population of 120 million, World Vision
of India has determined that there are nearly 600,000 devdasi. Official
government reports place the figure under 3,000). Candidates for the system
are usually poor, illiterate rural citizens. In the temple, they take a vow
of prostitution and may initially engage in sexual relations with a "priest"
in religious practices. They receive a tattoo on their foreheads, above the
red bindi. The red bindi usually denotes marriage in Indian culture, but in
combination with the tattoo, it symbolizes one who is sexually committed to
religion. In addition, the prostitutes put on a wooden necklace as a symbol
of their commitment. The necklace is never to be removed. The compounded
symbols are intended to permanently mark one as a devdasi regardless of her
dress, location, or demeanor. The goddess to whom these prostitutes are
committed is called Yellaamma.
In an annual fair held during a designated month, the initiation of
candidates is formally recognized. Men come to the fair to observe who is
being initiated. Subsequent to their observation, many men choose a devdasi.
Even married men come to take a woman; it is, after all, an element of
religious practice.
Usually, the man lives with the devdasi for a short period of time. When the
man selects another devdasi or feels that his current religious mate is no
longer suitable, he simply leaves her without responsibility or obligation.
Because of his use, the woman is now considered less attractive and is
subsequently chosen by less influential, less attractive, or even less
respectable men. This cyclical dependency continues indefinitely, for while
her patrons have no commitment to her, she is committed to being a sexual
object. At 23 or 24 years of age, a devdasi is usually the mother of 6-7
children, each the result of a relationship with a different man. She is a
relatively unattractive prospect and the community is not pleased with the
presence of a large, unsupported family. She may be able to take up
residence in a brothel in order to provide some level of self-support.
Because she belongs to the goddess Yellaamma, her fatherless offspring do so
as well. While there is a ceremonial religious event in which she dedicates
her children into prostitution in service to the goddess, it is already a
culturally implicit fact. The children of a devdasi have to continue as part
of the devdasi system. There are no personal options.
Prostitution in India is largely a Hindu industry. When asked who patronized
the prostitutes, "Pandit," a young man interviewed by the IJM who works as
an agent or promoter of prostitutes, made it very clear that Muslims and
Christians were not customers. Specifically in reference to Muslims he said,
"They may have three or four wives, but they won't buy drugs from me or come
near a prostitute." It is not uncommon, however, for tourists, including
Americans, to patronize the women. (source "Pandit." Interview with the IJM.
December 6, 1997.)
The Hindu worldview is one that encourages tolerance. Those whose economic
situation seems to leave them no alternative except prostitution learn to
tolerate their plight. The hope of reincarnation discourages them from
challenging their circumstances. They hold that by doing the best that they
can within their assigned station in life, they will be rewarded with higher
social status in the next life. If, on the other hand, they rebel, they will
destine themselves to worse circumstances the next time around.
M. Ranjit Mathews
Seeker wrote:
> Religion's Role in Indian Prostitution
>
> Indian women, whose poverty seems to leave them no
> alternative other than to sell their bodies, understand, in accordance with
> their Hindu faith, that their fate has been determined by forces greater
> than themselves. In response, the women commit themselves to prostitution as
> a religious appeasement of those forces.
Stuff and nonsense. They work as prostitutes to make a living, not to
appease any force.
> The most traditional, systemic role religion plays in prostitution is
> through the Devdasi system.(source: The word 'devdasi' denotes one who is a
> servant of god (dev=god, das=servant). In India, the term has come to be
> exclusively reserved for those whose religious service is prostitution.
There is no one whose religious service is prostitution.
M. Ranjit Mathews
Seeker wrote:
> Religion's Role in Indian Prostitution
> Candidates for the system
> are usually poor, illiterate rural citizens. In the temple, they take a vow
> of prostitution
How interesting. Does anyone have the wording of the vow or a
translation, thereof? Does the wording go, "I do hereby solemnly take a
vow of prostitution" or some such thing? If not, what makes it a vow of
prostitution?
M. Ranjit Mathews
Seeker wrote:
> Religion's Role in Indian Prostitution
> Candidates for the system
> are usually poor, illiterate rural citizens. In the temple, they take a vow
> of prostitution
How interesting. Does anyone have the wording of the vow or a
translation thereof? Does the wording go, "I do hereby solemnly take a
Shishir Yerramilli
> Religion's Role in Indian Prostitution
>
>
White Slavery in Saudi Arabia
From The Wall Street Journal
06/13/2002
As William McGurn reported Tuesday in an article on this page, Pat
Roush's two daughters, Alia and Aisha, were kidnapped from America in
1986. On Monday she learned that her Saudi ex-husband has married off
Aisha in what she believes is retribution for her participation in these
hearings."
Now, "marrying off" Aisha to a "husband" whom she doesn't want, and
forcing her to submit to him sexually, is rape. If she were to kill him
for trying to force his penis into her, which she'd be justified in
doing in any civilized nation, she'd probably be executed for "murder."
(I'd personally enjoy seeing a 19th century cavalryman lance this Saudi,
who doubtlessly looks like a hog, for the pleasure of hearing him squeal
like a stuck pig. Bayoneting him would be just as satisfying.)
This is not a Clintonese "That depends on what you mean by 'marriage,'"
it is rape: a violent felony that, in the United States, falls just
short of a capital crime. And Ms. Roush's Saudi ex-husband is no better
than a pimp, panderer, and white slaver. There was a time when civilized
nations knew what to do with this kind of subhuman trash; Charles Gordon
of Khartoum, for example, executed slave traders as a matter of routine.
This incident certainly justifies the United States' use of armed force
against Saudi Tyrannia unless its government returns Alia and Aisha to
the United States at once. We don't need "allies" who kidnap American
girls and sell them into white slavery. Congress last declared war on
someone in 1941, maybe we're overdue for another one.
Dr. Jai Maharaj
Hinduism Today
August 1993
India's legendary temple dancers
It is hard to imagine a class of people once so venerated
and then so dishonored as the devadasis -- India's ritual
temple artists. For millennia, these highly trained
performers filled India's temples with devotional song
and rigorous dance. Then in the early 1900's, Christian
influence inspired a moral brigade of Anglicized Indians
to cleanse India of such "backwardness." They branded the
devadasi a harlot and had her legally outlawed. Few
Hindus know this. Fewer comprehend how a society that
once called her nityasumangali, "the ever-auspicious
woman," could later chase her into the streets. In a
three-part series, we will help explain this, identify
her Agamic origins, detail her duties and discuss
controversial efforts to "rehabilitate" her.
The devadasi never married in the normal sense. Raised in
the temple environs under years of rigorous training in
classical singing and dance, she was ceremonially "wed"
to a God or Goddess at about 16. She rose before dawn,
sang as she lit the temple lamps and danced as part of
the worship offered to the Deity during pujas, festivals
and processions. As the priest conducted the puja, she
sang devotional songs while offering flowers or waving
the alankaram lamp. This sublime choreography transformed
temple ceremonies into beautiful spectacles uplifting all
the senses as shakti flowed forth from the Mahadeva.
In order for her to continue her lineage, the devadasi
was encouraged to secure a "patron" from the community.
He was to be "a religious man of good status, taste,
wealth and tradition" as it was considered important that
their offspring be of high-breeding. Respected elders in
the community often made this choice. Brahmins were
commonly selected. She could change "patrons" if felt
necessary. She never cooked for him, stayed at his house
or performed routine wifely functions. Children born of
their alliance were hers and learned music and dance.
Sons never danced in the temple, but became the dance
masters, natuvanars, and taught younger girls, who came
to look upon them like fathers. It was these natuvanars
who protected the devadasis and saw to their happiness
and welfare.
This unique tradition was Hindu society's strategic way
of guaranteeing the preservation of the classical arts as
religious, not secular expressions. The devadasi's
marriage to the Deity was more than a spiritualizing
arrangement. It was a practical necessity, society felt,
because the demands of a female family member --
daughter, wife or mother -- are so consuming, only
someone unmarried could commit the time and energies
needed to master the classical arts. "They could practice
and perform all day long and not think about anything
else," examines Mythili Kumar, a famous contemporary
dancer, herself trained by a devadasi. "Even if they had
some family, they didn't have to, or want to, really
worry about all that. This is so different from the
training a girl now gets in India where you have to
always put family first before the art. Whether that is
positive or negative depends on how you look at it. It
really comes down to dedication to the art. For them, the
art always came first and family came second."
Her Tarnished Image -- an Explanation
In Hindu society there were other classes of dancing
girls besides the devadasis. Much of the negative stigma
attached to her comes from the chronic misidentification
of her with them. There were the famed ganikas, highly
educated dancer/courtesans such as Ambapali who Buddha
once dined with. The Muslims spawned a giant class of
dancers and singers to entertain in their courts. There
were also dancers who were clearly identified as "public
women." Prostitution in ancient India was legal and
regulated by the state. The state taxed it, licensed
practioners, monitored their health, kept records and
policed all involved.
In an effort to debase Hinduism, several Western scholars
classed the devadasi with these public women. One of the
most widely referenced encyclopedias on Hinduism in the
world, The Hindu World, slanderously writes: "The
institution of temple harlotry was prevalent in India
till the end of the last century. Large temples such as
those at Madura, Conjeeveram and Tanjore were worked like
brothels." This bizarre idea is based on a temple
inscription that simply said Tanjore had 400 devadasis.
After the devadasis were banned from the temples, most
struggled on the fringe of society. Some were driven to
unflattering means of livelihood -- a fact they suffer
with to this day. While the government today
spasmodically tries to "rehabilitate" them, devadasis
themselves, and sympathizers, are asking for bolder, more
creative solutions.
Part II next month
Sidebar: Saride ManikYamma
Interview by Vijay Shankar
Saride Manikyamma was initiated as a child danseuse in
two temples in Andra Pradesh. She became the most beloved
dancer at her temple until 1947 when the government
banned the devadasi tradition. She struggled alone in
poverty for 25 years until a dance director found her and
hired her to teach dance at his institute. Today, Saride
leads a retired life in Hyderbad. In 1991, she was
honored with the prestigous Central Sangeete Nataka
Akademi Award for her outstanding contribution as a
danseuse. In this rare interview she speaks about her
past.
Hinduism Today: Could you tell us about your initiation
as a temple danseuse?
Saride Manikyamma: I was initiated to the temple of
Madana Gopalaswamy (Lord Krishna) and Rukmini (Goddess
Lakshmi) in Ballapadu, at the age of 11. I never realized
the significance of what I was doing. Being an obedient
child, I did what my elders asked me to do. My day
started with the early morning worship. Commencing with
the Suprabhatam in the early morning worship 'til the
Ekantaseva late in the night, I performed several rituals
in the temple. Some of them had to be performed through
dance. In the evenings, there were occasional
congregations of people when a Deity was worshipped and
the Asthana Utsavam (sun-setting festival) was performed
as an offering. This was also a program for entertainment
and devotional purpose.
For many years, my family line has been dedicated to the
temple. My grandmother, Seshamma, and two paternal aunts,
Mutyam and Madhuram, were the temple danseuses before me.
I learned dance from my ancestors but also had other
teachers. Rudrabhatla Ramamurthy was the original guru of
the temple. I studied under him for quite some time. Then
there was a dispute between him and temple management,
and he had to go. Another scholar, Purughalla Subbaiah,
was appointed as a substitute. He was both a musician and
a dance scholar. He taught me abhinaya, mimetic
expression, and the Adhyatma Ramayana.
HT: It is well known that though the temples are closed
to devadasis, the custom of dedicating girls to Deities
still continues in parts of India. Many then sing and beg
for a living, an almost unrecognizable mutation of the
original system. The government is now mounting a drive
against these girls. What is your reaction?
SM: A drive against the devadasi system hardly has any
significance. What the government should do is to
rehabilitate the devadasis by providing them with basic
needs and vocational help, but moreover encourage their
artistic talents instead of looking down on them. It is
not fair to blame the devadasis alone, as society holds
equal responsibility in the deterioration and degradation
of devadasis. There are many devadasis who are completely
left in the lurch and lead a secluded life.
HT: Tell us about the temples you were associated with in
Ballapadu?
SM: The two temples stretched over 136 acres. This was
truly a rich endowment considering those times. The
entire income of the temple was spent for the Deity only,
for the daily and periodical rituals, festivals and
maintenance of artists, servants, etc. I was the prima
donna until the endowments were abolished along with the
devadasi system in the 1930's.
HT: What was the impact on your life?
SM: I remember, it was about fifty years ago, suddenly
the temple staff was dismantled. I had nowhere to go, I
felt miserable. We fought a losing battle in the courts.
The case even reached the high court. Finally, I moved to
Duvva, another nearby village, after selling all my
personal property.
HT: How did Dr. Nataraj Ramakrishna spot you?
SM: In 1972, there was a sadassu (convention) convened by
Dr. Nataraj Ramakrishna (right). All the artists rich in
experience in traditional arts assembled. I was
discovered by him along with many others and was brought
to Hyderbad. At his institute, I was assigned to teach
abhinaya. If not for his timely support, I would be
leading the secluded life of a recluse.
HT: You are an expert in the interpretation of Munipalle
Subrahmanya Kavi's Adhyatma Ramayana?
SM: Yes. It's a ballad form of Ramayana. Written in the
16th century, it consists of about 108 songs in which the
story of Rama is narrated from his birth to his ultimate
coronation. Perfect lyrics, the songs have classical
tunes. Each song has its own substance, culminating in a
climax. Adhyatma Ramayana became an integral part of the
repertoire of the numerous temple dancers in Godavari
regions.
HT: What has been your reaction on receiving the Sangeeta
Nataka Akademi Award?
SM: It was all due to the Divine Grace and through Dr.
Nataraj Ramakrishna who was instrumental in my being able
to surface and see the world from the seclusion to which
I was forced to retire. I was not existing at all for the
rest of the world until Dr. Nataraj noted my presence.
But now I have the satisfaction of having passed on my
knowledge to some students at least, especially my
disciple Tara Priyadarshini. I am glad that my singing
and dance version has been recorded by Central Sangeeta
Nataka Academy. Today, due to the grace of Almighty, I
lead a contented life.
Sidebar: Their Talent Persists
Though not widely known, many of India's greatest
contemporary dancers, singers and instrumentalists are
from a devadasi lineage. One such artist unashamed of her
devadasi lineage is Kishori Amonkar, one of India's most
extraordinary classical singers. An article on her (India
Perspectives, 1991, by Rashmee Seghal) candidly revealed
the prejudice she suffered as a girl:
"Born in Goa in 1931, her mother Moghubhai Murdikar
herself a famous singer, came from the oppressed stratum
of society, the devadasis. So although she grew up in an
atmosphere of music, Kishori faced many privations in her
youth. Describing one such incident, she says, "Once I
was sitting on the parpet of the Someshwar temple in our
home village Kurdi, when I was rudely a sked to get down
from there and sit on the step below. Why? I failed to
understand. I did not budge. Later on I came to know that
our low social status automatically assigned us to a
place a the bottom."
"It is not fair to blame the devadasi alone. Society
is equally responsible for her present degradation.
The government should provide not only vocational
help, but encourage her artistic talents instead of
looking down on her."
- Saride Manikyamma
Source - http://www.hinduismtoday.com/1993/8/1993-8-05.html
Devadasis, Part II
Hinduism Today
September 1993
Part I introduced the complex and severely misunderstood
tradition of the devadasis, Hinduism's ritual temple
artists. Four points were made: 1) the devadasi was
highly trained in music and dance from girlhood; 2) at
16, she was ceremoniously "married" to a temple Deity and
served as a full temple employee; 3) she was permitted a
"patron" of good bearing from the community; 4) and she
was distinct from other women who sang solely in palaces
and wealthy homes as well as the various strata of
courtesans high and low.
Despite all the bizzare accounts by mainly Western
writers, the devadasi temple tradition was not some
twisted turn of a patriarchal Indian society nor a
heartless Hindu institution of "religious harlotry."
Hardly. Its origins trace deep into the Saiva Agamas
(circa 1,500 bce), which dignify her as a bonafide
ceremonial officiant, with specific duties, training and
and rules of conduct. Both the devadasis and the priests
were a part of the subtle, sacred task of invoking the
shakti, divine energy, of the Mahadeva and making it a
palpable experience to devotees. The priests employed
Sanskrit mantras; the devadasis used music, mudra and
dance. Both regarded themselves as "temple servants."
They carried an attitude of humble self-respect, joyfully
filling an occupation that garnered little worldly
reward. Their deepest fulfillment was completely inner.
The Kamikagama describes many categories of female ritual
temple artists, including the Rudraganika, Rudrakkannikai
and the Rudradasi. Contemporary high priest
Sadyojatasivacharya summarizes from Agamic passages: "The
Rudraganika should wear her hair in a knot above the
collar bone; her waist should be adorned by a saffron
cloth. She should wear the Siva mark of three stripes of
holy ash and the rudraksha as the sole ornament. She
should wear a silken blouse. The acharya gives her
Sivadiksha (initiation) and teaches her the Panchakshara
Mantram and ties on her the golden sign of the linga onto
her wedding pendant. For all three [ganikas] after the
bottu (lingam) has been tied, it is necessary for her to
peform nrittnam, pure dance. If this is done with lust,
or otherwise, the king and country will be destroyed."
Other sects, Sakta and Vaishnavite, scripturally
sanctioned and adopted the devadasi tradition. To her
village, she was considered a "harbinger of
auspiciousness," a true embodiment of the Deity. Devotees
invited devadasis to private homes on auspicious
occasions, especially weddings. Here they were worshiped
and then asked to sing and bless. They went in groups of
two or more, never alone. One Puri Temple retired
devadasi relates: "People used to take sand from our door
[as a blessing] and bangles from our hands to give to
their daughters. But today, people think sinfully about
us and [don't do this anymore]."
The devadasi's schedule was highly routine. She performed
daily, or more infrequently if many were attached to her
temple. She lived in her own small house, alone, on
temple lands, and ate both temple prashadam and cooked
for herself. She rose before dawn, performed her personal
worship and arrived at the temple with the priests. She
sang, lit lamps and danced generally in two different
locations -- right before the inner sanctum and also at
smaller shrines in outer mandapams (halls) where devotees
were uplifted by her sublime worship. At other times, she
performed in festival processions and part of dance
dramas that continued around the year keeping Hindu
teachings and stories alive. In the evening, she sang but
only the most honored "inner division devasasis"
performed at the close of the final evening puja, waving
the last arati. Some learned and played the flute and
veena.
Her "Private" Life -- Fact Versus Fabrication
Nothing has so hypnotized the prurient imagination of
Western writers than the devadasi's "private" life.
French missionary Abbé Dubois seeded a breeding nest of
vilification with his baseless statement circa 1800:
"Once the devadasis' temple duties are over, they open
their cells of infamy, and frequently convert the temple
itself into a stew. A religion more shameful or indecent
has never existed amongst a civilized people." Other
Western writers further fictionalized this warped
portrait. By the early 1900's, an élite group of
Anglicized Indians, brainwashed by decades of Christian
moralizing -- along with a party of avowed anti-Hindu
atheists -- led fierce campaigns against temple dancing.
Several unusually courageous devadasis such as
Balasarawati (left) and stalwart brahmin sympathizer E.
Krishna Iyer fought against the zealous "reformers." But
to no avail. The temples were legally "cleansed" in late
1947. (See side bar.) The sacred art form was frantically
and awkwardly passed on to high-caste brahmin girls to
learn and then perform as "high" secular entertainment,
like ballet, where it stands today.
Ironically the dismantling of the devadasi tradition only
fueled an even more radical rural religious practice. In
this, girls are "wed" to a God or Goddess, but with no
temple to serve in. Often called jogtis, (or,
confusingly, devadasis by the Indian press) they carry an
image of the Deity and worship it daily. Considered
"auspicious," they beg at five homes a day and are openly
"public women," with rural society's religious sanction.
State governments have banned the practice and are
desperately trying to eradicate it.
During 1975-1981 Frédérique Marglin, an anthropologist
who studied Indian dance, visited India and befriended
the last remaining temple devadasis of the Jagannath
Temple at Puri. Her remarkable 400-page sober and
sensitive account of their tradition, Wives of the
God/King, faithfully retrieves one of the clearest
pictures of the original devadasi tradition in all its
complexity.
The Puri devadasis repeatedly told Marglin that
fraternizing with "outsiders," (pilgrims) was strictly
taboo. If they had "relations" with a temple devotee,
they were dismissed. However, they shared something that
was common knowledge amongst temple brahmin families but
to few others. In the words of Radha, a Puri devadasi:
"It is a custom for us to keep relations with a brahmin
temple servant, but never with 'outsiders.' Why should I
hide these things? When I had my puberty, I exchanged
garlands with this priest [a widower] in whose brother's
house I live and I have lived within the boundaries of
that relationship always." The Puri devadasis explained
that they grew up with the priests and felt a natural
closeness to them as both had dedicated their lives to
being temple servants. The brahmins' wives were fully
aware of these "second wife" situations. Until
"reformers" came, they were never a moral concern. The
sinfulness Christians attached to non-monogamous marital
arrangements was not yet known. For years, the devadasis
feared revealing this area, painfully aware that already
they were considered prostitutes by educated society.
Now, demoralized and disbanded, they feel they have
nothing to lose in confiding everything, for they have
nothing left, except a hauntingly deep love of devotional
song and dance.
Part III will include interviews with famous contemporary
dancers, including Mrinalini Sarabhai, Ratna Kumar and
Vidya Sridhar.
The Law that Damned Dance
The sun rose bright over Madras on January 27th, 1948. It
seemed to be an everyday morning. But when the Fort St.
George Gazette hit the streets, there were cries --
cheers and tears. The legal section carried the long-
expected decree -- The Madras Devadasis Act XXXI,
(reproduced in part):
"Dancing by a woman, with or without kumbhaharathy (pot-
shaped temple arati lamp), in the precincts of a temple
or other religious institution, or in any procession of a
Hindu deity, idol or object of worship installed in any
such temple or institution or at any festival or ceremony
held in respect of such a deity, idol or object of
worship, is hereby declared unlawful... Any person who
performs, permits or abets [temple dancing] is punishable
with imprisonment for... six months.
..A woman who takes part in any dancing or music
performance... is regarded as having adopted the life of
prostitution and becomes incapable of entering into a
valid marriage and... th e performance of any [marriage]
ceremony... whether [held] before or after this Act is
hereby declared unlawful and void."
From that day onward, 35,000 temples of Tamil Nadu barred
all women performers, devadasis or not. Most had already.
Today, Indian girls perform Hinduism's sacred dances in
high school basketball gyms, rented Christian community
centers and hotel dance halls. The temples meanwhile are
void of devotional song and dance, except occasional
tourist shows like at Khajarao.
Amrapalli of Puri
Amrapalli was a dancer/singer in Puri's Jagannath Temple
and began in her early teens. In her mid-twenties, the
local king suddenly banished her from the temple. She
says it was because she refused his royal order to bed
with him (a king's right, exercised for centuries).
Others said it was because she lived for a period in
Calcutta with her "patron," breaking the rule that
devadasis never leave their temple's town.
Amrapalli broke another rule, one of the first to do so.
When she saw her tradition being trampled into ruin by
the "anti-dance" reformers, she trained her four adopted
daughters in music and dance, but married them to high
caste husbands (including one brahmin), instead of
dedicating them as devadasis. The fourth she married to a
devadasi's son. He became an Orissi dancer and now
teaches at a dance school.
Amrapalli came from the karana caste, hereditary temple
scribes, and was dedicated to the temple at age 9 by her
mother. She was highly trained, studied literature, wrote
poetry, was considered very beautiful, danced
inspirationally and had an unusually sweet, devotional
voice.
"[The 'reformers'] say I was just a concubine of [my
patron]. But he was also one of my gurus. Sometimes, he
even worshiped me as a devotee, giving me sandalpaste and
flowers and doing puja to me. He was very religious and
built a shrine and a hospital."
As of 1982, Amrapalli was happy, living alone and
associating closely with a Vaishnavite monastery in Puri,
worshiping and attending talks by sadhus.
Source - http://www.hinduismtoday.com/1993/9/1993-9-12.html
Devadasis
Hinduism Today
December 1993
Outlawed as Harlots
Parts One and Two of our 4-part series introduced India's
legendary ritual temple artists, the Devadasis. Part
Three-drawn extensively from Kay Jordan's unusual study
"From Sacred Servant to Profane Prostitute-The Changing
Legal Status of the Devadasis: 1857-1947"-examines the
complex saga of how, in a land where God is worshiped as
a dancer, dance became a sin.
As the East India Company's 17th century "looting spree"
turned into permanent business by the 1800's-"bleeding
India, judiciously," as British Prime Minister Salisbury
coolly decreed-waves of Christian preachers and teachers
were dispatched to Anglicize the "savages." Vicious in
their ridicule of Hinduism, the missionaries won converts
amongst the Indian élite who were quick to adopt novel
European ideas and eager for social acceptance by those
in power. Gradually the seeds of cultural shame were sown
and an Indian clone of British mentality successfully
bred. From then onwards, the most effective critics of
Hindu tradition were Indians themselves. By the late
1800's, a reform movement was in full bloom comprised of
"missionaries, doctors, journalists and [Indian] social
workers heavily influenced by Christian morality and
religion," notes social historian Amrit Srinivasan.
"Civilizing the Indians through enforcing a uniform
adoption of the Victorian ethic for women" became a
central goal of the reformers. And the Devadasi
tradition-with its custom of allowing her an alliance
with a respectable "patron" in the community-stood out as
the most ungodly, un-Christian violation. "An insult to
womanhood," reformers indignantly fumed, and insisted on
"the imported conjugal monogamous ideal for women as the
only code of conduct permissble for all Indian women,"
Srinivasan further examines.
Devadasis in Court
The earliest court cases involving devadasis appear in
the1860's-mostly petty grievances with temple management
over the devadasis' temple land grants and their
selection rights regarding new devadasis. A statement by
Bombay's Chief Justice Holloway in 1864 typifies
Britain's cautious legal policy of avoiding, whenever
possible, any legislation on matters of Hindu religion
that might inflame the Hindu populace. He wrote:"This
[devadasi custom] is not at variance with Hindu law; our
courts are therefore bound to administer to them that
law, uninfluenced by a fastidiousness founded upon
Western views of morality." Social activists however
insisted that girls dedicated to temples were inducted
into lives of prostitution and demanded the courts ban
the practice. (The Indian Penal Code, established in
1861, allowed for prostitution but made "trafficking"
illegal.) Pressured by an Indian élite who felt
embarrassed by a tradition that Westerners had convinced
them "violated international 'moral' standards," the
Central Government in 1872 requested an official report
from each of its provinces on the extent and nature of
its devadasi tradition as well as the Hindu public's
opinion relating thereto.
The Governor General of Madras responded: "It seems to be
the most general opinion that dancing girls are necessary
adjuncts to the Hindu ritual and that also their
attendance on private families is customary and necessary
on many domestic occasions. That to legislate with the
intention of the gradual extinction of the dancing girl
caste would be viewed with extreme dislike by the great
majority of Hindus." Bombay agreed and penned: "There
would be no advantage to interfere in long established
usages in this respect which are in a great measure
founded on the religious tenets of the people." Trichy's
District Magistrate replied: "These girls, by definite
title or by prescription, occupy a defined position and
perform defined duties in Hindu temples and from that
point of view, their services must be considered lawful
and necessary and are also recognized by the Civil Courts
as being so." Sholapur Collector A.F. Maconochie
expressed that the dancing girls should be tolerated
because if they were outlawed, they would be abused.
"Private [Hindu] people would be unwilling to receive
them, and there are no public institutions in India for
their reception. The [Christian] Missions, of course,
would take them in, with the object of making Christians
of them. But as the mass of Indian public look on change
of religion, especially the adoption of Christianity, as
a far worse sin than prostitution, the change would stir
up very bitter religious opposition, and be interpreted
as a practical propagation of Christianity by the
government." H.C. Mules, Karachi district magistrate,
answered: "However objectionable the lives of the girls
may be in our eyes, it does not appear they follow their
calling under pressure, and are not looked upon as
outcasts or regarded so by their co religionists."
Britain's Home Secretary responded to the reformers'
argument that dedicating girls without their consent was
cruel: "In India, females of disposed of one way or
another, long before age 16; whether their volition has
or has not matured by that age is not very material since
they seldom are allowed to exercise it at any time."
After judicious review, the Central Government concluded
that regardless the extent of alleged sexual excesses it
perhaps encompassed, the devadasi tradition was
nevertheless a bonafide Hindu custom and that existent
"trafficking" laws provided adequate protection by
forbidding girls under 16 to be given or kept for the
proven express purpose of prostitution. But, as reformist
zeal mounted, some judges showed less restraint. In 1880,
Justice West of Bombay called the temple dancer tradition
of his precinct a "manifestly evil tendency, essentially
vicious" and denied devadasis protection under all civil
law. Madras High Judge Muttusami Ayyar objected:
"Whatever may be the change in the sentiments of Hindus
in regard to the dancing women in Bombay and Poona, I am
unable to say that there is considerable change in this
presidency in the general mass of the Hindu community as
contra-distinguished from a comparatively small section
that has come under the influence of Western culture."
But continuing pressure and "criticism of the court's
recognition of the devadasis and their customs from
England and from both Indian and missionary social reform
organizations demanded the British Indian government take
action," notes author Kay Jordan.
In 1912, legislation to "protect female minors"-aimed at
banning the devadasi system-was again introduced by a
Parsi and a Hindu, Mr. Mudholkar. Mudholkar presumed:
"Neither Hinduism as now practiced, nor Hinduism as it
was inculcated by our rishis, recognized this [devadasi
system]. It was to them a most abhorrent thing." Moral
indignation voiced by the male sector of Hindu society
was new. Associate Professor of Asian Studies at Mt.
Holyoke College Dr. Indira Viswanathan Peterson explains
this phenomenon: "In reaction to the British, Indians
acted in two contradictory ways: they became great
reformers; but also suppressed some of the more erotic
and sexually liberated aspects of women's culture, thus
turning Indian society more rigid and conservative.
Devadasis, or temple dancers, were now considered obscene
prostitutes, whereas earlier they were not. This was
because Indian men had to prove to the British that they
were moral, moral in a Christian, Victorian sort of way."
All along, the central question of alleged prostitution,
or a degree thereof, within the devadasi tradition
remained a blur. The Madras Legislature wrote in 1924:
"We have not definitely assumed that employment as a
devadasi is equivalent to employment for purposes of
prostitution." The Central Government generally
concurred: "Even if it is true in many instances that
temple dedication is synonymous, in practice, with
prostitution, we should hesitate to make a legal
declaration to that effect, so long as this was not
admitted by Hindus generally." It then advised Bombay and
Madras to strengthen prostitution trafficking laws and to
encourage their ladies' vigilante associations as such
rather than outlaw devadasis.
Then in 1929, a brahmin woman and member of the
legislature, Dr. Muthulakshmi Reddy, launched a furious
anti-nautch (dance) campaign, demanding wholesale
demolition of the devadasi system-a "revolting custom,
calling for immoral trade of women," she raged. "The
dharmakarthars [temple heads] and general illiterate
public imagine that the Gods in the temple want these
dasis for service!" she added. "The Gods in the temple do
not want any dancing or music," thundered a Mr. K. R.
Karant, a Hindu. "It is a sacrilege to say that religion
requires all this nonsense."
"Don't Exterminate Us!" Throughout the 60-years of legal
assault against them, the devadasis remained silent. But
Dr. Reddy scared them out of that shy profile. Overnight,
scores of hand-writtenpleas and protests-personally
signed by devadasis-poured into the Madras Legislature.
One stood out. It was signed by the "Deputation of the
devadasis of the Presidency of Madras" and "Devadasi
association of the Tinnevelly District." In eloquent
language, they pleaded for their survival. They denied
being harlots, and lamented this cruel stigma attached to
them. They confessed a minor degree of prostitution had
crept into their society and sincerely invited that such
women be dealt with in accordance with existing laws.
They maintained: "Our institution is similar to the mutts
presided by sanyasis for the propagation of religion. We
can be compared to female sanyasis who are attached to
respective temples. We marry none but God and become
devotees of God." "They described themselves," writes Kay
Jordan, as "guardian angels of dance and music with a
devotion that bears comparison with the ardor of the
pundits reading Vedas in preference to modern pursuits."
They quoted the Saiva Agamas to substantiate their
scriptural origins-"Shiva said: 'To please me during my
puja, arrangements must be made daily for shudda nritta
(dance). This should be danced by females born of such
families and the five acharyas should form the
accompaniments.' Since these Agamas are revered by every
Hindu, however modern and educated they are, what reason
can there be for our community not to thrive and exist as
necessary adjuncts of temple service?" They averred Dr.
Reddy's proposed abolition of their tradition punished
the many for actions of a few, and painfully assessed:
"In proposing this legislation, the legislators attempt
to do away for ever with our sect. Such legislation is
unparalleled in the civilized world."
They asked for more soulful training: "Give us education-
religious, literary and artistic-so we will occupy once
again the same rank which we held in the past. Teach us
the Thevarams of the Saivite saints and the Nalayaram of
the Vaishnavite acharyas. Instill into us the Gita and
the beauty of the Ramayana and explain to us the Agamas
and the rites of worship." This would, they argued,
inspire devadasi girls to model themselves after female
saints like "Maitreyi, Gargi and Manimekalai and the
women singers of the Vedas that we might once again
become the preachers of morality and religion... You who
boast of your tender love for small communities, we pray
that you may allow us to live and work out our salvation
and manifest ourselves in jnana and bhakti and keep
alight the torch of India's religion amidst the fogs and
storms of increasing materialism and interpret the
message of India to the world."
Despite fervent protests by E. Krishna Iyer and a"pro-
art" Madras contingent-Dr. Reddy and her Anglicized
women's leagues prevailed. Crippling legislation passed
against the devadasis in 1927, followed by total
abolition in 1947 [Hinduism Today, Sept. '93]. Dance was
relegated to a secular art, renamed Bharata Natyam, and
then adopted, restylized and nurtured by mostly married
women of the brahmin caste.
Part IV includes messages from famous dancers as well as
an explanation of the current rationale of the Anti-
Nautch Law from a Tamil Nadu government spokesperson.
Source - http://www.hinduismtoday.com/1993/12/1993-12-13.html
Temple Dancers
By Bhadra Sinha
Letters to the Editor
Hinduism Today
June 1994
Your coverage on Devadasis [August, September, December,
1993 and January, 1994] was really informative for
talented new dancers. Devadasis were those who dedicated
their lives to their dance not for money but only because
it was a medium through which they could worship God.
Dance, especially classical Indian dance, was given by
Lord Shiva (Tandava) and by Goddess Parvati (Lasya).
Devadasis performed this dance for God, but their dance
was appreciated by people too. People used to come to the
temple for puja and also saw the dance. Because they
appreciated the dance, this does not mean that it should
be done for their entertainment.
Dancers should continue to maintain the dignity of dance
by keeping it a medium for worshiping-they should not
commercialize it. Dancers should have the temple as the
stage for their dance.
Bhadra Sinha, New Delhi, India
Source - http://www.hinduismtoday.com/1994/6/1994-6-06.html
An Era of Renaissance
By Rishi K. Agarwal
Letters to the Editor
Hinduism Today
June 1994
It's a matter of great satisfaction that such a very
useful forum [Hinduism Today] has been functioning for
the last sixteen years-bringing together the Hindus
spread all over the world to communicate with each other
on matters relating to this great religion and
spiritualism. I hope that this will usher in an era of
renaissance in Hinduism worldwide. It's highly gratifying
to note that basic tenets of Hinduism have percolated
down to the grass-root levels in the Western world, which
has certainly opened its eyes and ears to the spiritual
teachings and moral principles of our saints and sages
who had dedicated their lives for the good of mankind.
I am amazed by the clarity of understanding and
appreciation of a complex Hindu tradition such as
Devadasis shown by Prof. Teresa Hubel [January, 1994]. I
am yet to find such a positive, sensible and illuminating
approach from a co-religionist.
You have given important information on what Hindus are
trying to do in many corners of the world. Accomplishing
such a hazardous task is certainly a wonderful show of
immense dedication, sincerity of purpose and total
commitment to what you believe in.
Rishi K. Agarwal, Orissa, India
Source - http://www.hinduismtoday.com/1994/6/1994-6-06.html
Devadasis Forever
By Richard Morey
Letters to the Editor
Hinduism Today
December 1993
Your series of articles about the "Devadasis-India's
legendary temple dancers," is deeply appreciated by
everyone here at the society of Abidance in Truth. We
applaud and heartily encourage such excellent "spiritual
journalism." Our ashram maintains a regular schedule of
Indian spiritual cultural events featuring Indian
musicians, singers and dancers. Yes, we do invite into
our temple traditional Indian dancing, such as bharata
natyam and other forms. We have found these events to be
quite spiritually inspiring for our members and guests,
and the dancers are always deeply touched by performing
in such a holy setting.
Richard Morey, General Manager
Society of Abidance in Truth
Santa Cruz, CA
Source - http://www.hinduismtoday.com/1993/12/1993-12-22.html#gen261
End of forwarded posts
Jai Maharaj
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Om Shanti
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Panchaang for 16 Ashadh 5103, Tuesday, June 25, 2002:
Chitrabhanu Nama Samvatsare Dakshinaya Nartana Ritau
Mithuna Mase Krishna Pakshe Mangala Vasara Yuktayam
Poorvashadha Nakshatra Brahma-Indra Yoga
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Hindu Holocaust Museum
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The truth about Islam and Muslims
http://www.flex.com/~jai/satyamevajayate
Seeker
have been rejected by her daughters. She stretches facts way out of
proportions to make a feeble argument. However, if this story has a
semblance of truth, it is a wrong practice and is rejected by Islam.
Hinduism, however, bounds young, helpless girls into slavery for a miserable
life of torture and suffering. Devadasi system is wrong; pointing fingers at
an incident in Saudi Arabia will not change that. As a Hindu why don't you
reform your society and save millions of hapless victims of the "priests"
from a life of slavery and sexual abuse. I thought Hinduism is a religion of
change and tolerance, but in the case of Devadasi, you Hindus just accept
status quo because it is "fun" for you. How barbaric.
"Shishir Yerramilli" <yshi...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:370a0b0.02072...@posting.google.com...
Shishir Yerramilli
> This is hardly even anecdotal evidence. Ramblings of a mother who seems to
> have been rejected by her daughters. She stretches facts way out of
> proportions to make a feeble argument. However, if this story has a
> semblance of truth, it is a wrong practice and is rejected by Islam.
Really?Mohammed did not seem to think so.I am willing to say that you
are greater person than Mohd.
> Hinduism, however, bounds young, helpless girls into slavery for a miserable
Lack of economic oppurtunity among India ,yes...but not Hinduism
> life of torture and suffering. Devadasi system is wrong; pointing fingers at
Again not all Devadasi's are prostitutes.In fact a majority of them
are not.They are just dancing women.They are often held in low regard
in proper Hindu society even though their dancing is hardly
titilating(it may have been in the past).
> an incident in Saudi Arabia will not change that.
This is just an example of an incident.There are lot more from where
that came from.
As a Hindu why don't you
> reform your society and save millions of hapless victims of the "priests"
> from a life of slavery and sexual abuse.
I have spoken to many priests as a teenager and not even mentioned
any rendezvous with Devadasis inspite of my prodding!!
I thought Hinduism is a religion of
> change and tolerance, but in the case of Devadasi, you Hindus just accept
> status quo because it is "fun" for you.
It is not "fun" for anyone.
>How barbaric.
Your purpose was to belittle Hinduism but showing a system by
highlighting and grossly exagerrated it does little to help your
cause.I responded with the example of Saudi Arabia because that kind
of barbaric behavior is upheld by Islamic law.
Seeker
news:370a0b0.02072...@posting.google.com...
news:<ahq75s$jtc$1...@slb3.atl.mindspring.net>...
> > This is hardly even anecdotal evidence. Ramblings of a mother who seems
to
> > have been rejected by her daughters. She stretches facts way out of
> > proportions to make a feeble argument. However, if this story has a
> > semblance of truth, it is a wrong practice and is rejected by Islam.
>
> Really?Mohammed did not seem to think so.I am willing to say that you
> are greater person than Mohd.
What are you talking about?
>
> > Hinduism, however, bounds young, helpless girls into slavery for a
miserable
>
> Lack of economic oppurtunity among India ,yes...but not Hinduism
When little girls are bound to the Hindu temples and to the Hindu goddess of
Yamanaa for prostitution, than it is Hinduism that is forcing these girls
into sexual slavery not India. The practice of Devadasi is limited to
Hindus. Moslems and Christians despite being denied economic opportunity and
being heavily persecuted, don't resort to Devadasi system. The first step in
reforming your religion of Hinduism is to learn about where it is wrong. I
don't see why this would upset you?
> Again not all Devadasi's are prostitutes.
OK, then 99% of them definitely are.
> > an incident in Saudi Arabia will not change that.
>
> This is just an example of an incident.There are lot more from where
> that came from.
Again you are speculating, and you are being unwilling to correct a wrong
behavior in your Hinduism.
> I have spoken to many priests as a teenager and not even mentioned
> any rendezvous with Devadasis inspite of my prodding!!
This is again anecdotal evidence. Maybe you only talked to "good" priests.
>
> I thought Hinduism is a religion of
> > change and tolerance, but in the case of Devadasi, you Hindus just
accept
> > status quo because it is "fun" for you.
>
> It is not "fun" for anyone.
Then why does it continue with such great numbers, and why do Hindus,
including self proclaimed enlightened ones, not do anything to change the
system.
>
> >How barbaric.
>
> Your purpose was to belittle Hinduism but showing a system by
> highlighting and grossly exagerrated it does little to help your
> cause.
Really? Again you indulge in gross speculation. I am only trying to defend
the defensless victims of Hinduism by promoting awareness of a serious
problem.
>I responded with the example of Saudi Arabia because that kind
> of barbaric behavior is upheld by Islamic law.
You attempted to engage me in a pissing contest to take the attention away
from the plight of hundreds of millions of hapless young girls in India. If
you are so enlightened, then why don't you change your Hindu religion to rid
it of this barbaric practice. You don't have to protect the abuses of the
Brahmins, even you can change the situation. At least that much you should
have learnt after living in the US.
Sauron
Here is some factoids
There have been 1 million Bangladeshi and more than 200,000 Burmese women
trafficked to Karachi, Pakistan. (Indrani Sinha, SANLAAP India, "Paper on
Globalization & Human Rights")
200,000 Bangladeshi women have been trafficked to Pakistan for the slave
trade and prostitution. (Trafficking in Women and Children: The Cases of
Bangladesh, p.8, UBINIG, 1995)
200,000 Bangladeshi women were trafficked to Pakistan in the last ten years,
continuing at the rate of 200-400 women monthly. (CATW - Asia Pacific,
Trafficking in Women and Prostitution in the Asia Pacific)
In Pakistan, where most of trafficked Bengali women are sold there are about
1,500 Bengali women in jail and about 200,000 women and children sold into
in the slave trade. (estimates by Human Rights organizations in Pakistan,
Trafficking in Women and Children: The Cases of Bangladesh, p.14, UBINIG,
1995)
India and Pakistan are the main destinations for children under 16 who are
trafficked in south Asia. (Masako Iijima, "S. Asia urged to unite against
child prostitution," Reuters, 19 June 1998)
More than 150 women were trafficked to Pakistan every day between 1991 and
1993. (Indrani Sinha, SANLAAP India, "Paper on Globalization & Human
Rights")
100 - 150 women are estimated to enter Pakistan illegally every day. Few
ever return to their homes. ("Rights-South Asia: Slavery Still A Thriving
Trade," IPS, 29 December 1997)
There are over 200,000 undocumented Bangladeshi women in Pakistan, including
some 2,000 in jails and shelters. Bangladeshis comprise 80 percent, and
Burmese 14 percent, of Karachi's undocumented immigrants. (Zia Ahmed Awan,
affiliate with Lawyers for Human Rights and Legal Aid, Sindh police report
in 1993, "Rights-South Asia: Slavery Still A Thriving Trade," IPS, 29
December 1997)
A Bengali or Burmese woman could be sold in Pakistan for US$1,500 - 2,500 -
depending on age, looks, docility and virginity. For each child or woman
sold, the police claim a 15 to 20 percent "commission." ("Rights-South Asia:
Slavery Still A Thriving Trade," IPS, 29 December 1997)
Women kidnapped at the Pakistan-Afghanistan border are being sold in the
marketplace for R600 per kilogram as of 1991. (CATW - Asia Pacific,
Trafficking in Women and Prostitution in the Asia Pacific)
Auctions of girls are arranged for three kinds of buyers: rich visiting
Arabs (sheiks, businessmen, visitors, state-financed medical and university
students), the rich local gentry, and rural farmers. (CATW - Asia Pacific
"Trafficking in Women and Prostitution in the Asia Pacific" (19)
19,000 Pakistani children have been trafficked to the United Arab Emirates
(UAE). 160,000 Nepalese women are in Indian brothels. (LHRLA, Indrani Sinha,
SANLAAP India, "Paper on Globalization & Human Rights")
Orphaned girls are sold as 'wives' to men who may resell them (CATW - Asia
Pacific, Trafficking in Women and Prostitution in the Asia Pacific)
Methods and Techniques of Traffickers
Bangladeshi and Burmese women are being kidnapped, married off to agents by
unsuspecting parents, trafficked under false pretenses, or enticed by
prospects of a better life, into brothels in Pakistan. Border police and
other law enforcement agencies are well aware of the trafficking through
entry points into Pakistan like Lahore, Kasur, Bahawalpur, Chhor and Badin.
(Sindh police report in 1993, "Rights-South Asia: Slavery Still A Thriving
Trade," IPS, 29 December 1997)
Nepalese and Bangladeshi woman and girls are trafficked under false
pretenses, such as jobs, then are forced into prostitution in brothels in
Pakistan. (CATW - Asia Pacific, Trafficking in Women and Prostitution in the
Asia Pacific)
A rise in trafficking of girls, aged 8-15, in Pakistan has occurred during
this last decade. (CATW - Asia Pacific, Trafficking in Women and
Prostitution in the Asia Pacific)
"Seeker" <4not_listed_due_to_spam_bots_121101> wrote in message
news:ahotmg$47i$1...@slb6.atl.mindspring.net...
singh
Go ask your Muslim Devdasis in Pakistan...you know the ones...the ones who
are sold to the Saudis, your masters!
Pakis would know about slavery, they were slaves for their entire history!
"Seeker" <4not_listed_due_to_spam_bots_121101> wrote in message
news:ahrb91$rid$1...@slb6.atl.mindspring.net...
Seeker
news:10277235...@nntp.acecape.com...
> BWAAAHAAA! HAA! Seeker, the Arab Dick worshipper talks about
prostitution???
> Go ask your Muslim Devdasis in Pakistan...you know the ones...the ones who
> are sold to the Saudis, your masters!
>
> Pakis would know about slavery, they were slaves for their entire history!
Poonam once again you are in need of some learning how to make a logical
argument. Being a Devadasi yourself, how could you let someone reform the
system. It is too convenient to maintain status quo. Hinduism does not
consider the hundreds of millions of poor girls sold into slavery as real
human beings worthy of mercy. That's why Hindu is a wrong religion.
Vishal
>
> Hinduism, however, bounds young, helpless girls into slavery for a miserable
> life of torture and suffering. Devadasi system is wrong; pointing fingers at
> an incident in Saudi Arabia will not change that. As a Hindu why don't you
> reform your society and save millions of hapless victims of the "priests"
First to the facts,
Prostitution under devdasi system is a crime under Indian law and
Indian laws are not governed by Hinduism.
coming to reform I can only say that jo log shisho ker ghar main
rahten hain woh dosro per pather nahin fakten .
M. Ranjit Mathews
> This is hardly even anecdotal evidence. Ramblings of a mother who seems to
> have been rejected by her daughters. She stretches facts way out of
> proportions to make a feeble argument. However, if this story has a
> semblance of truth, it is a wrong practice and is rejected by Islam.
What is the recommended punishment for a husband who follows the
unIslamic practices of taking sole custody of his daughters by a
divorced wife and of marrying them to grooms of his choice?
> Hinduism, however, bounds young, helpless girls into slavery for a miserable
> life of torture and suffering.
Pimps who do this. How do you know that Hinduism does this?
> Devadasi system is wrong;
No more than a system of ordaining nuns is wrong.
> pointing fingers at
> an incident in Saudi Arabia will not change that.
Sure, but you're the one who started the thread, pointing fingers.
> As a Hindu why don't you
> reform your society and save millions of hapless victims of the "priests"
> from a life of slavery and sexual abuse.
There are no victims of priests; priests don't go about looking for
jogtis to victimise. It is the victims' parents who have their
daughters ordained as jogtis. It is not priests but jogtis themselves
or their parents pimps who decide on their taking up a certain
profession.
> I thought Hinduism is a religion of
> change and tolerance, but in the case of Devadasi, you Hindus just accept
> status quo because it is "fun" for you.
There are no Devadasis, which is a status quo that is not fun. If
there were Devadasis, they would sing and dance at temples, which
would be fun for the spectators. Whether it would be fun for the
Devadasis depends on their working conditions just like whether it is
fun to be a nun depends on the conditions.
As for a status quo of people following the oldest profession, such a
status quo prevails all over the world, not just among Hindus. The
primary difference is that in most other societies, there isn't as
great an obligation to get a daughter married and thus, there isn't as
great a market for a ceremony that relieves parents of such an
obligation.
> How barbaric.
>
> "Shishir Yerramilli" <yshi...@hotmail.com> wrote ...
> > "Seeker" <4not_listed_due_to_spam_bots_121101> wrote ...
singh
Don't worry Seeker, your ancestors were great at selling off their daughters
to Mecca to their Arab masters! You can tell your little daughter about the
great Mohammad's love fest with a 5 year old and how great Islam is...heck
you can tell your daughter that if an old Arab man wants her, you'll have to
give her up like Ayesha's father sold her to Mohammad!
Muslim lullaby for little girls:
"Soja muni, soja! Nahin tho Mohammad ko baich denge!"
"Sleep little girl, sleep! Or else I'll sell you to Mohammad!"
"Seeker" <4not_listed_due_to_spam_bots_121101> wrote in message
news:ahsvfd$vgm$1...@slb7.atl.mindspring.net...
Seeker
news:fde1349.02072...@posting.google.com...
> > semblance of truth, it is a wrong practice and is rejected by Islam.
> >
> > Hinduism, however, bounds young, helpless girls into slavery for a
miserable
> > life of torture and suffering. Devadasi system is wrong; pointing
fingers at
> > an incident in Saudi Arabia will not change that. As a Hindu why don't
you
> > reform your society and save millions of hapless victims of the
"priests"
>
> First to the facts,
> Prostitution under devdasi system is a crime under Indian law and
I agree. However, the laws in India are largely ignored by both law
enforcement agency and civilians. So the de facto standard is one of
promoting Child prostitution. This is precisely why Devadasi child
prostitution system is alive and well in India today.
> Indian laws are not governed by Hinduism.
Again this is only true in theory. Hinduism is the de facto law of the land
in India. Ask any Christian or Moslem minorities.
> coming to reform I can only say that jo log shisho ker ghar main
> rahten hain woh dosro per pather nahin fakten .
Hahahaha. Actually, Pakistan mein buhat reforms ho chukay hein and buhat
reforms ho rahay hein. Pakistani sheeshay kay ghar mein nahin rah rahay hein
;-)
Dhanaybad.
Shishir Yerramilli
> "Shishir Yerramilli" <yshi...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:370a0b0.02072...@posting.google.com...
> > "Seeker" <4not_listed_due_to_spam_bots_121101> wrote in message
> news:<ahq75s$jtc$1...@slb3.atl.mindspring.net>...
> > > This is hardly even anecdotal evidence. Ramblings of a mother who seems
> to
> > > have been rejected by her daughters. She stretches facts way out of
> > > proportions to make a feeble argument. However, if this story has a
> > > semblance of truth, it is a wrong practice and is rejected by Islam.
> >
> > Really?Mohammed did not seem to think so.I am willing to say that you
> > are greater person than Mohd.
>
> What are you talking about?
Mohd was the first pimp in Islam.
>
> >
> > > Hinduism, however, bounds young, helpless girls into slavery for a
> miserable
> >
> > Lack of economic oppurtunity among India ,yes...but not Hinduism
>
> When little girls are bound to the Hindu temples and to the Hindu goddess of
> Yamanaa for prostitution, than it is Hinduism that is forcing these girls
There is no such goddess.
> into sexual slavery not India. The practice of Devadasi is limited to
> Hindus.
Of course retard,as a Hindu tradition got deviated into prostitution
in rare occasions.Similarly they rarely any Hindu or Christian tawaifs
,they are 100% Muslim.
Moslems and Christians despite being denied economic opportunity and
> being heavily persecuted, don't resort to Devadasi system. The first step in
> reforming your religion of Hinduism is to learn about where it is wrong. I
> don't see why this would upset you?
Unlike Islam,I have no problem with criticism of my religion.I am
just questioning your intentions.
>
> > Again not all Devadasi's are prostitutes.
>
> OK, then 99% of them definitely are.
I said most of them are not,either you dont understand logic and math
or you have reading comprehension problems.
>
> > > an incident in Saudi Arabia will not change that.
> >
> > This is just an example of an incident.There are lot more from where
> > that came from.
>
> Again you are speculating, and you are being unwilling to correct a wrong
> behavior in your Hinduism.
If there is a wrong behavior and there are ,there many social workers
and critics among Hinduism and who identify themselves as Hindu.So
called right wing Brahmanists Savarkar and Godse organised mass inter
caste dinners and fought hard for the right of Dalits to enter
temples.
> > I have spoken to many priests as a teenager and not even mentioned
> > any rendezvous with Devadasis inspite of my prodding!!
>
> This is again anecdotal evidence. Maybe you only talked to "good" priests.
All the friends I know who come from a Brahmin family have pleaded
ignorance of this phenomena.It is only Pakistanis I got to know
Devadasi business!!
>
> >
> > I thought Hinduism is a religion of
> > > change and tolerance, but in the case of Devadasi, you Hindus just
> accept
> > > status quo because it is "fun" for you.
> >
> > It is not "fun" for anyone.
>
> Then why does it continue with such great numbers, and why do Hindus,
> including self proclaimed enlightened ones, not do anything to change the
> system.
>
Becaue this 'system' exists only in your head.You cant blame Hindus
for not changing something that doesnt exist like Allah for example!
> >
> > >How barbaric.
> >
> > Your purpose was to belittle Hinduism but showing a system by
> > highlighting and grossly exagerrated it does little to help your
> > cause.
>
> Really? Again you indulge in gross speculation. I am only trying to defend
> the defensless victims of Hinduism by promoting awareness of a serious
> problem.
Stop shedding crocodile tears for Hindus when you have so gleefully
supported their genocide at the hands of your Muslim heroes.How can
you take a higher moral ground and keep a straight face?
> >I responded with the example of Saudi Arabia because that kind
> > of barbaric behavior is upheld by Islamic law.
>
> You attempted to engage me in a pissing contest to take the attention away
> from the plight of hundreds of millions of hapless young girls in India. If
> you are so enlightened, then why don't you change your Hindu religion to rid
> it of this barbaric practice. You don't have to protect the abuses of the
> Brahmins, even you can change the situation. At least that much you should
> have learnt after living in the US.
Have you learnt in the U.S. that it is unacceptable to stone a raped
woman for adultery?
Seeker
news:370a0b0.02072...@posting.google.com...
> "Seeker" <4not_listed_due_to_spam_bots_121101> wrote in message
> > What are you talking about?
>
> Mohd was the first pimp in Islam.
>
OK. Then who did he pimp?
> >
> > >
> > > > Hinduism, however, bounds young, helpless girls into slavery for a
> > miserable
> > >
> > > Lack of economic oppurtunity among India ,yes...but not Hinduism
> >
> > When little girls are bound to the Hindu temples and to the Hindu
goddess of
> > Yamanaa for prostitution, than it is Hinduism that is forcing these
girls
>
> There is no such goddess.
Perhaps your ignorance of Hinduism is greater than your ignorance of the
evil child sex trade promoted by Hinduism. Ask your pundit to teach you
about the goddess "Yellaamma." Feigning ignorance about this goddess of
child prostitution will not change the fact that there are hundreds of
millions of little girls forced into sexual slavery by the Hindu temples.
> > into sexual slavery not India. The practice of Devadasi is limited to
> > Hindus.
>
> Of course retard,as a Hindu tradition got deviated into prostitution
> in rare occasions.Similarly they rarely any Hindu or Christian tawaifs
> ,they are 100% Muslim.
There maybe 100% Muslim tawaifs in India, but they 0% forced as babies by
their "priests" and religion. Hindu religion forces little babies into
prostitution and once the little girls are old (20 year old) and useless
they are thrown in the streets with their dozen children.
>
> Moslems and Christians despite being denied economic opportunity and
> > being heavily persecuted, don't resort to Devadasi system. The first
step in
> > reforming your religion of Hinduism is to learn about where it is wrong.
I
> > don't see why this would upset you?
>
> Unlike Islam,I have no problem with criticism of my religion.I am
> just questioning your intentions.
You have a lot of problem with criticism of your religion. That's why you
are in denial about the Devadasi system and the hundreds of millions of
little girls who are forced into sexual slavery at the hand of the Hindu
temples in the name of the Yellaamma goddess.
> > > Again not all Devadasi's are prostitutes.
> >
> > OK, then 99% of them definitely are.
>
> I said most of them are not,either you dont understand logic and math
> or you have reading comprehension problems.
Well, you are in denial about the reports of international agencies who
report that hundreds of millions of Hindu girls are forced into sexual
slavery by the Hindu temples with the temple priests being the first one to
dip his wick into tender 2-4 year old girls. How barbaric. Just makes my
blood boil.
> > Again you are speculating, and you are being unwilling to correct a
wrong
> > behavior in your Hinduism.
>
> If there is a wrong behavior and there are ,there many social workers
> and critics among Hinduism and who identify themselves as Hindu.So
> called right wing Brahmanists Savarkar and Godse organised mass inter
> caste dinners and fought hard for the right of Dalits to enter
> temples.
These are rare exceptions.
> > This is again anecdotal evidence. Maybe you only talked to "good"
priests.
>
> All the friends I know who come from a Brahmin family have pleaded
> ignorance of this phenomena.It is only Pakistanis I got to know
> Devadasi business!!
Pakistanis and other well respected international human rights organization
that view the Devadasi child prostitution system disgusting. Your comments
prove that you Hindus don't even view it as a problem. This is where
Hinduism is a barbaric religion. How can you not have a problem with
hundreds of millions of young girls forced into sexual slavery??
> > Then why does it continue with such great numbers, and why do Hindus,
> > including self proclaimed enlightened ones, not do anything to change
the
> > system.
> >
> Becaue this 'system' exists only in your head.You cant blame Hindus
> for not changing something that doesnt exist like Allah for example!
The 'system' exists in my head and the head of hundreds of thousands of
international human right activists who put their lives on line to save
these innocent girls.
My source of information are such agencies. Instead of denying the barbaric
practices of your religion, why don't you reform your religion. You Hindus
have always said how dynamic your religion is. Well, go listen to a saruthi
and change this barbaric practice. It takes one to make the change.
> > Really? Again you indulge in gross speculation. I am only trying to
defend
> > the defensless victims of Hinduism by promoting awareness of a serious
> > problem.
>
> Stop shedding crocodile tears for Hindus when you have so gleefully
> supported their genocide at the hands of your Muslim heroes.How can
> you take a higher moral ground and keep a straight face?
I have never supported anyone's genocide.
> > >I responded with the example of Saudi Arabia because that kind
> > > of barbaric behavior is upheld by Islamic law.
> >
> > You attempted to engage me in a pissing contest to take the attention
away
> > from the plight of hundreds of millions of hapless young girls in India.
If
> > you are so enlightened, then why don't you change your Hindu religion to
rid
> > it of this barbaric practice. You don't have to protect the abuses of
the
> > Brahmins, even you can change the situation. At least that much you
should
> > have learnt after living in the US.
>
> Have you learnt in the U.S. that it is unacceptable to stone a raped
> woman for adultery?
We are working on changing this practice in the part of the world as well
just as we are requesting you to open your eyes and change the lot of
hundred of millions of young girls who are bound into sexual slavery and are
used by Hindu priests for sexual pleasure. This is an never ending cycle of
violence that Hindu religion promotes. It has to stop.
Seeker
news:1d4c67e3.02072...@posting.google.com...
> "Seeker" <4not_listed_due_to_spam_bots_121101> wrote ...
> > This is hardly even anecdotal evidence. Ramblings of a mother who seems
to
> > have been rejected by her daughters. She stretches facts way out of
> > proportions to make a feeble argument. However, if this story has a
> > semblance of truth, it is a wrong practice and is rejected by Islam.
>
> What is the recommended punishment for a husband who follows the
> unIslamic practices of taking sole custody of his daughters by a
> divorced wife and of marrying them to grooms of his choice?
An Islamic wedding cannot take place without the consent of the bride and
the groom. In fact, both are asked three times to offer their consent and
then asked explicitly to state what is it they are about to do. So your
question here is simply bogus and irrelevant.
>
> > Hinduism, however, bounds young, helpless girls into slavery for a
miserable
> > life of torture and suffering.
>
> Pimps who do this. How do you know that Hinduism does this?
Goddess Yellaamma is a Hindu goddess. Little girls are bound to Hindu
temples for a lifetime of abuse and torture under the protection of this
goddess.
>
> > Devadasi system is wrong;
>
> No more than a system of ordaining nuns is wrong.
Bullshit.
>
> > pointing fingers at
> > an incident in Saudi Arabia will not change that.
>
> Sure, but you're the one who started the thread, pointing fingers.
I am only attempting to increase awareness of this inhuman practice of child
sex slavery that Hindu religion forces on millions of innocent girls. I
think this practice is barbaric and it needs to stop.
>
> > As a Hindu why don't you
> > reform your society and save millions of hapless victims of the
"priests"
> > from a life of slavery and sexual abuse.
>
> There are no victims of priests; priests don't go about looking for
> jogtis to victimise. It is the victims' parents who have their
> daughters ordained as jogtis. It is not priests but jogtis themselves
> or their parents pimps who decide on their taking up a certain
> profession.
Nonsense! The priests force parents to give up their daughters to a lifetime
of sexual slavery, and often it is the priests themselves who "use" the
girls first. How barbaric.
>
> > I thought Hinduism is a religion of
> > change and tolerance, but in the case of Devadasi, you Hindus just
accept
> > status quo because it is "fun" for you.
>
> There are no Devadasis, which is a status quo that is not fun. If
> there were Devadasis, they would sing and dance at temples, which
> would be fun for the spectators. Whether it would be fun for the
> Devadasis depends on their working conditions just like whether it is
> fun to be a nun depends on the conditions.
>
> As for a status quo of people following the oldest profession, such a
> status quo prevails all over the world, not just among Hindus. The
> primary difference is that in most other societies, there isn't as
> great an obligation to get a daughter married and thus, there isn't as
> great a market for a ceremony that relieves parents of such an
> obligation.
Again. Only Hindu religion forces the prostitution on little girls. No other
religion forces this profession on any other human being. The numbers are
far greater in India then anywhere else.
Vishal
> promoting Child prostitution. This is precisely why Devadasi child
> prostitution system is alive and well in India today.
Do you have any statistics.
> > Indian laws are not governed by Hinduism.
>
> Again this is only true in theory. Hinduism is the de facto law of the land
> in India. Ask any Christian or Moslem minorities.
Ha Ha interesting.
Does India have special laws for Hindus?
Who are the people who are opposing Uniform civil code.
>
> Hahahaha. Actually, Pakistan mein buhat reforms ho chukay hein and buhat
> reforms ho rahay hein. Pakistani sheeshay kay ghar mein nahin rah rahay hein
> ;-)
Pehle main aap logon ne Afganistan ko reform karne ki koshis ke.
Natija aaj poora duniya janti hain.
Aab dekhtah hain Pakistan ka kya hoga.
koolfire_or
conducting marriages for young and underaged paki girls to 75 year old
arabs legally is the right thing, as per this ghandoo,go and set right
all this nonsense.....maybe middle aged afghans having young boys for
shafting is part of islamic religious practice....islam is
hypocritical and a filthy religion.
Shishir Yerramilli
>
> OK. Then who did he pimp?
>
The non Muslim women captured in war.
to the Hindu
> goddess of
> > > Yamanaa for prostitution, than it is Hinduism that is forcing these
> girls
> >
> > There is no such goddess.
>
> Perhaps your ignorance of Hinduism is greater than your ignorance of the
> evil child sex trade promoted by Hinduism. Ask your pundit to teach you
> about the goddess "Yellaamma."
In the above line you mentioned Yamanaa not Yellaamma.I aware of the
latter and is deplorable but it far from hundreds of millions.Dont
blame me for your typos.
Feigning ignorance about this goddess of
> child prostitution will not change the fact that there are hundreds of
> millions of little girls forced into sexual slavery by the Hindu temples.
>
> > > into sexual slavery not India. The practice of Devadasi is limited to
> > > Hindus.
> >
> > Of course retard,as a Hindu tradition got deviated into prostitution
> > in rare occasions.Similarly they rarely any Hindu or Christian tawaifs
> > ,they are 100% Muslim.
>
> There maybe 100% Muslim tawaifs in India, but they 0% forced as babies by
> their "priests" and religion.
Yes they are.Did you hear what the Mullahs of the Muslim League did
the Bengali Muslims in Bangladesh?
Hindu religion forces little babies into
> prostitution and once the little girls are old (20 year old) and useless
> they are thrown in the streets with their dozen children.
Can you quote in a Hindu text which approves of this?
> >
> > Moslems and Christians despite being denied economic opportunity and
> > > being heavily persecuted, don't resort to Devadasi system. The first
> step in
> > > reforming your religion of Hinduism is to learn about where it is wrong.
> I
> > > don't see why this would upset you?
Muslims and Christians resort to secular non religious prostitution
which is far more lucrative and extensive than the miniscule
employment oppurtunities of the so called Devadasi system.
> >
> > Unlike Islam,I have no problem with criticism of my religion.I am
> > just questioning your intentions.
>
> You have a lot of problem with criticism of your religion. That's why you
> are in denial about the Devadasi system and the hundreds of millions of
> little girls who are forced into sexual slavery at the hand of the Hindu
> temples in the name of the Yellaamma goddess.
Again give references for "hundreds of millions".My religion unlike
yours doesnt have a death penalty for blasphemy.It never did.Being
Muslim you may be unfamiliar with the concept of people criticises
their own religion.
> Well, you are in denial about the reports of international agencies who
> report that hundreds of millions of Hindu girls are forced into sexual
> slavery by the Hindu temples with the temple priests being the first one to
> dip his wick into tender 2-4 year old girls. How barbaric. Just makes my
> blood boil.
Save your boiling blood for non fictional episodes like 11 year boys
executed for blasphemy in Pakistan.
>
> These are rare exceptions.
No.These were the ones who are routinely accused of excarbated the
caste system when all they want to do is maintain the system while
doing away with the rigid heierarchy.
>
> Pakistanis and other well respected international human rights organization
> that view the Devadasi child prostitution system disgusting.
Pakistani human rights activists ,now there is an oxymoron!
Your comments
> prove that you Hindus don't even view it as a problem. This is where
> Hinduism is a barbaric religion. How can you not have a problem with
> hundreds of millions of young girls forced into sexual slavery??
No because I dont have problems with fictional stories.
> The 'system' exists in my head and the head of hundreds of thousands of
> international human right activists who put their lives on line to save
> these innocent girls.
>
It hardly takes hundreds of thousands of activists to save barely a
couple of thousand who are infact abused.
> My source of information are such agencies.
These called agencies like to grossly exaggerate their efforts and
the conditions in order to gain prestige and finance for sinister
purposes(like evangelism)
Instead of denying the barbaric
> practices of your religion, why don't you reform your religion.
First reform yours then lecture me.
You Hindus
> have always said how dynamic your religion is. Well, go listen to a saruthi
> and change this barbaric practice. It takes one to make the change.
There are many who are trying to change and chances are they will
succeed.
>
> I have never supported anyone's genocide.
Should I post messages of our previous debates?
>
> > > >I responded with the example of Saudi Arabia because that kind
> > > > of barbaric behavior is upheld by Islamic law.
> > >
> > Have you learnt in the U.S. that it is unacceptable to stone a raped
> > woman for adultery?
>
> We are working on changing this practice in the part of the world as well
> just as we are requesting you to open your eyes and change the lot of
> hundred of millions of young girls who are bound into sexual slavery and are
> used by Hindu priests for sexual pleasure. This is an never ending cycle of
> violence that Hindu religion promotes.
I am afraid you are confusing the Hindu religion with the Islamic
one.
>It has to stop.
Indeed, Islam has to be eliminated.
Lawson English
"Shishir Yerramilli" <yshi...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:370a0b0.02072...@posting.google.com...
> I am afraid you are confusing the Hindu religion with the Islamic
> one.
>
> >It has to stop.
>
> Indeed, Islam has to be eliminated.
Now there's a tolerant and useful attitude.
Seeker
news:ai4hku$sf6$1...@slb6.atl.mindspring.net...
A good observation. I only want to eliminate child prostitution in India.
The little girls ripped from the mother's bosom are sold into a lifetime of
sexual slavery and abuse. How can this world progress if women are denied
basic dignity! My heart goes out for these innocent, tender aged victims of
a very cruel system.
Lawson English
"Seeker" <4not_listed_due_to_spam_bots_121101> wrote in message
[...]
Subir
> Religion's Role in Indian Prostitution
thet is why mullahism completely legalized it so that one can now
officially "marry" up to 4 wives at a time and even enjoy pedophilia
without any quoranic qualms.
Seeker
"Lawson English" <engl...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:ai5taa$uh1$1...@slb4.atl.mindspring.net...
M. Ranjit Mathews
> "Vishal" <visha...@yahoo.com> wrote ...
> > > semblance of truth, it is a wrong practice and is rejected by Islam.
> > >
> > > Hinduism, however, bounds young, helpless girls into slavery for a
>
> > > pointing fingers at an incident in Saudi Arabia will not change that.
> > > As a Hindu why don't you reform your society and save millions of
> > > hapless victims of the "priests"
> >
> > First to the facts,
> > Prostitution under devdasi system is a crime under Indian law and
>
> I agree. However, the laws in India are largely ignored by both law
> enforcement agency and civilians. So the de facto standard is one of
> promoting Child prostitution. This is precisely why Devadasi child
> prostitution system is alive and well in India today.
There is no such thing as "the Devadasi child prostitution system".
> > Indian laws are not governed by Hinduism.
>
> Again this is only true in theory. Hinduism is the de facto law of the land
> in India. Ask any Christian or Moslem minorities.
How would one tell that Hinduism is the de facto law?
Shishir Yerramilli
Thank you for acknowledging this!
Seeker
> "Seeker" <4not_listed_due_to_spam_bots_121101> wrote ...
> > "Vishal" <visha...@yahoo.com> wrote ...
> > > > semblance of truth, it is a wrong practice and is rejected by Islam.
> > > >
> > > > Hinduism, however, bounds young, helpless girls into slavery for a
> >
> > > > miserablelife of torture and suffering. Devadasi system is wrong;
> > > > pointing fingers at an incident in Saudi Arabia will not change
that.
> > > > As a Hindu why don't you reform your society and save millions of
> > > > hapless victims of the "priests"
> > >
> > > First to the facts,
> > > Prostitution under devdasi system is a crime under Indian law and
> >
> > I agree. However, the laws in India are largely ignored by both law
> > enforcement agency and civilians. So the de facto standard is one of
> > promoting Child prostitution. This is precisely why Devadasi child
> > prostitution system is alive and well in India today.
>
> There is no such thing as "the Devadasi child prostitution system".
You are either lying or are in denial about this very cruel practice in
India. You need to open your eyes and save some innocent girls who are
ripped from their mother's bosom by the Hindu priests and forced into child
sex temples.
>
> > > Indian laws are not governed by Hinduism.
> >
> > Again this is only true in theory. Hinduism is the de facto law of the
land
> > in India. Ask any Christian or Moslem minorities.
>
> How would one tell that Hinduism is the de facto law?
You will need to learn about Hinduism and the law of the land. Even American
law in some sense is biblical law.
Seeker
Idiot it is you how display this wrong attitude.
Seeker
> Muslim lullaby for little girls:
> "Soja muni, soja! Nahin tho Mohammad ko baich denge!"
> "Sleep little girl, sleep! Or else I'll sell you to Mohammad!"
Bihari "lulla"by:
"Soja dasi, so ja dasi, so ja devadasi"
"Sulla, aa raha hay. Lulla ki pooja kar lay"
"Uth ja dasi, uth ja dasi sulla doodh pila raha hay"
"riksa bun rahay hein. Aag me ugni jul raha hay"
Romanise
> > I agree. However, the laws in India are largely ignored by both law
> > enforcement agency and civilians. So the de facto standard is one of
> > promoting Child prostitution. This is precisely why Devadasi child
> > prostitution system is alive and well in India today.
>ranjit_...@yahoo.com (M. Ranjit Mathews) wrote in message
> There is no such thing as "the Devadasi child prostitution system".
Fellow hates South Indians. If Ajay Devgan is a South Indian the
fellow has more reasons to hate South India. He proves the Deb
character right that Hindiwalas are mulim wanabes. They cant forgive
Kamal Hassan for taking away bossomy Sarika.
Seeker
news:dcef526a.02073...@posting.google.com...
Joshi is more ignorant than he lets on. Kamal Hasan is not a Muslim. This is
just a very unusual Tamil name.
habshi
town as the practice has been banned for a long time . Unfortunately
even the dance learning.
Romanise
> Joshi is more ignorant than he lets on. Kamal Hasan is not a Muslim. This is
> just a very unusual Tamil name.
How many unusual Tamil names you know?
koolfire_or
he can reel of a few of his tamil ancestors,his greatgrand mother
named kundiamma,who was a parachi,who got fucked by some muslim and
converted,seeker madherchod is direct descendent,his half tamil moms
name is khudhipapa.:)))))))
Shishir Yerramilli
> Have to start somewhere.
Dont worry about us.Start with yourself.Where the heck are you from anyway?
singh
> Bihari "lulla"by:
>
> "Soja dasi, so ja dasi, so ja devadasi"
> "Sulla, aa raha hay. Lulla ki pooja kar lay"
> "Uth ja dasi, uth ja dasi sulla doodh pila raha hay"
> "riksa bun rahay hein. Aag me ugni jul raha hay"
Can't possibly be Bihari lullaby...bad hindi! Must be Paki wet dream
lullaby!
Paki national anthem:
"hum hain Parsi ke dasi,
chorus:hum hain .hum hain
hum hain Yavanon ke dasi,
chorus: hum hain hum hain
hum hain Maurya ke dasi,
chorus: hum hain hum hain
hum hain Gupta ke dasi,
chorus:hum hain hum hain
hum hain Saka ke dasi,
chorus:hum hain hum hain
hum hain Hun ke dasi,
chorus:hum hain hum hain
hum hain Chiin ke dasi,
chorus:hum hain hum hain
hum hain Arab ke dasi,
chorus:hum hain hum hain
hum hain Afghan ke dasi,
chrus:hum hain hum hain
hum hain Mongul ke dasi,
chorus:hum hain hum hain
hum hain Sikh ke dasi,
chorus:hum hain hum hain
hum hain engrage ke dasi,
chorus:hum hain hum hain
hum hain Amrika ke dasi,
chorus:hum hain hum hain
hum log dasi heen dasi!
hum sub dasi!
HUM HAIN ! HUM HAIN!
humare bache bhi dasi!
HUM HAIN! HUM HAIN!
humari zindagi bhi dasi!
Hum hain! hum hain!
PAKISTANI DASI ZINDABAD!
>
Shishir Yerramilli
It is just an unusual combination of words.
Kamal-lotus,haasan-laughter or one who smile/laughs like a lotus.
Seeker
> "Seeker" <4not_listed_due_to_spam_bots_121101> wrote in message
news:<ai65i4$59r$1...@slb0.atl.mindspring.net>...
> > Have to start somewhere.
>
> Dont worry about us.Start with yourself.Where the heck are you from
anyway?
India.
Seeker
Just this one
Vishal
> > > I agree. However, the laws in India are largely ignored by both law
> > > enforcement agency and civilians. So the de facto standard is one of
> > > promoting Child prostitution. This is precisely why Devadasi child
> > > prostitution system is alive and well in India today.
> Fellow hates South Indians. If Ajay Devgan is a South Indian the
> fellow has more reasons to hate South India. He proves the Deb
> character right that Hindiwalas are mulim wanabes. They cant forgive
> Kamal Hassan for taking away bossomy Sarika.
Stupid Joshi, I have not not exactly written what you are seeing on top.
The lines have been screwed up, these are the lines of seeker.
No doubt I always said that you are a big fool.
Reghu R
> > Religion's Role in Indian Prostitution
> > are usually poor, illiterate rural citizens. In the temple, they take a vow
> > of prostitution
M. Ranjit Mathews (ranjit_...@yahoo.com) wrote
> How interesting. Does anyone have the wording of the vow or a
> translation thereof? Does the wording go, "I do hereby solemnly take a
> vow of prostitution" or some such thing? If not, what makes it a vow of
> prostitution?
M. Ranjit Mathews does not make mistakes, He must be rally
surprised...
He posted three times same message. He does not know wjat is happening
in interior india...
Such nonsense can happen only among Indian people of various castes.
Have you heard about Yellamma Goddess of Karnadaka. Girls sacrificed
to this godess
Should vow they should not deprive the hungry men.
That is why before closing front door and going to bed,
ancient rich Soodras would call aloud in expectation
to invite possible hungry men(sorry 100% reserved
For Brahmins).
N.B
Dalits are not soodras.
Dalits demands apology from Brahmins.
Romanise
> > just a very unusual Tamil name.
>yshi...@hotmail.com (Shishir Yerramilli) wrote in message
> It is just an unusual combination of words.
> Kamal-lotus,haasan-laughter or one who smile/laughs like a lotus.
Do they 'hasan' in Tamil when they want to 'laugh-an' ?
M. Ranjit Mathews
> > Seeker wrote:
> > > Religion's Role in Indian Prostitution
> > > Candidates for the system are usually poor, illiterate rural citizens.
> > > In the temple, they take a vow of prostitution
>
> M. Ranjit Mathews (ranjit_...@yahoo.com) wrote
> > How interesting. Does anyone have the wording of the vow or a
> > translation thereof? Does the wording go, "I do hereby solemnly take a
> > vow of prostitution" or some such thing? If not, what makes it a vow of
> > prostitution?
>
> M. Ranjit Mathews does not make mistakes, He must be rally surprised...
> in interior india...
... and you do know what the wording of the supposed "vow of
prostitution" is?
> Such nonsense can happen only among Indian people of various castes.
> Have you heard about Yellamma Goddess of Karnadaka. Girls sacrificed
> to this godess
Never heard of sacrifices to Yelamma. I've only heard of dedications
to Yelamma, that eliminate parents' obligation to get a daughter
married. BTW, Yelamma seems similar to a certain Malayali name; I had
a greataunt named Elamma.
> Should vow they should not deprive the hungry men.
>
> That is why before closing front door and going to bed, ancient rich Soodras
> would call aloud in expectation to invite possible hungry men (sorry 100%
> reserved For Brahmins).
Feeding Brahmin beggars (i.e., giving them bhikhsa) is an old
tradition, but why should only Brahmins be fed when hungry?
> N.B
> Dalits are not soodras.
By Manu's definition, Dalits are Sudras. By certain other definitions
one sees touted, Dalits might be Brahmins, Kshatriyas, Vaishyas or
Sudras.
> Dalits demands apology from Brahmins.
Is this apology demanded before, during or after the asskickings they
get from nonBrahmins?
M. Ranjit Mathews
> > "Seeker" <4not_listed_due_to_spam_bots_121101> wrote ...
> > > This is hardly even anecdotal evidence. Ramblings of a mother who seems
> to
> > > have been rejected by her daughters. She stretches facts way out of
> > > proportions to make a feeble argument. However, if this story has a
> > > semblance of truth, it is a wrong practice and is rejected by Islam.
> >
> > unIslamic practices of taking sole custody of his daughters by a
> > divorced wife and of marrying them to grooms of his choice?
>
> An Islamic wedding cannot take place without the consent of the bride and
> the groom. In fact, both are asked three times to offer their consent and
> then asked explicitly to state what is it they are about to do. So your
> question here is simply bogus and irrelevant.
>
> >
> > > Hinduism, however, bounds young, helpless girls into slavery for a
> miserable
> > > life of torture and suffering.
> >
>
> Goddess Yellaamma is a Hindu goddess.
Quite.
> Little girls are bound to Hindu temples for a lifetime
Do you know of any temple that has on its precincts girls that are
bound to it for life?
> of abuse and torture under the protection of this goddess.
The only role of the goddess, as far as one can tell, is to eliminate
the requirement for parents to find husbands for their daughters.
Abuse might follow after this, but there is no requirement that girls
who are dedicated must be abused any more than African churches have a
requirement that nuns must be abused after taking their vows.
> > > Devadasi system is wrong;
> > No more than a system of ordaining nuns is wrong.
> Bullshit.
Why?
> > > pointing fingers at
> > > an incident in Saudi Arabia will not change that.
> >
> > Sure, but you're the one who started the thread, pointing fingers.
>
> I am only attempting to increase awareness of this inhuman practice of child
> sex slavery that Hindu religion forces on millions of innocent girls. I
> think this practice is barbaric and it needs to stop.
Since there is no such practice, it doesn't need to stop. Pimping of
minors (regardless of whether they have been dedicated to Yelamma)
does, of course, need to stop.
> Nonsense! The priests force parents to give up their daughters to a lifetime
> of sexual slavery,
Where may one find priests who force parents to give up daughters?
What instruments of force do they employ and what penalties have
priests been able to impose on parents who refused to give up their
daughters?
> and often it is the priests themselves who "use" the
> girls first. How barbaric.
> > > I thought Hinduism is a religion of
> > > change and tolerance, but in the case of Devadasi, you Hindus just
> accept
> > > status quo because it is "fun" for you.
> >
> > There are no Devadasis, which is a status quo that is not fun. If
> > there were Devadasis, they would sing and dance at temples, which
> > would be fun for the spectators. Whether it would be fun for the
> > Devadasis depends on their working conditions just like whether it is
> > fun to be a nun depends on the conditions.
> >
> > As for a status quo of people following the oldest profession, such a
> > status quo prevails all over the world, not just among Hindus. The
> > primary difference is that in most other societies, there isn't as
> > great an obligation to get a daughter married and thus, there isn't as
> > great a market for a ceremony that relieves parents of such an
> > obligation.
>
> Again. Only Hindu religion forces the prostitution on little girls.
There is no major religion (that includes Hinduism) that forces
prostitution on anyone, including on little girls.
> No other religion forces this profession on any other human being.
> The numbers are far greater in India then anywhere else.
The numbers are zero in India, like in most other places.
> > > How barbaric.
Seeker
> "Seeker" <4not_listed_due_to_spam_bots_121101> wrote in message
news:<ai0vlr$fs1$1...@slb2.atl.mindspring.net>...
> > > No more than a system of ordaining nuns is wrong.
> > Bullshit.
>
> Why?
No comparison between the two. Nuns are supposed to be pure, DevaDasis are
not.
> > Nonsense! The priests force parents to give up their daughters to a
lifetime
> > of sexual slavery,
>
> Where may one find priests who force parents to give up daughters?
> What instruments of force do they employ and what penalties have
> priests been able to impose on parents who refused to give up their
> daughters?
All over India.
> > Again. Only Hindu religion forces the prostitution on little girls.
>
> There is no major religion (that includes Hinduism) that forces
> prostitution on anyone, including on little girls.
I gave you the name of the Hindu godess who is used to force prostitution on
India girls.
>
> > No other religion forces this profession on any other human being.
> > The numbers are far greater in India then anywhere else.
>
> The numbers are zero in India, like in most other places.
Go ahead sugar coat it all you want, but the reality is this practice is
alive and well and laregely tolerated by Indians. This may explain your
denial.
>
> > > > How barbaric.
M. Ranjit Mathews
> "M. Ranjit Mathews" <ranjit_...@yahoo.com> wrote ...
> > "Seeker" <4not_listed_due_to_spam_bots_121101> wrote ...
> > > > > Devadasi system is wrong;
> > > > No more than a system of ordaining nuns is wrong.
> > > Bullshit.
> >
> > Why?
>
> No comparison between the two.
Nuns are Devadasis.
> Nuns are supposed to be pure, DevaDasis are not.
Very well, nuns are required to take a vow of chastity whereas Hindu
Devadasis are, in general, not thus required. Is not requiring a vow
of chastity wrong? Conversely, is requiring a vow of chastity not
wrong?
> > > Nonsense! The priests force parents to give up their daughters to a
> lifetime
> > > of sexual slavery,
> >
> > Where may one find priests who force parents to give up daughters?
> > What instruments of force do they employ and what penalties have
> > priests been able to impose on parents who refused to give up their
> > daughters?
>
> All over India.
Baloney. Where in Kerala or Tamilnadu may one find these priests?
What instruments of force do you think are employed?
> > > Again. Only Hindu religion forces the prostitution on little girls.
> >
> > There is no major religion (that includes Hinduism) that forces
> > prostitution on anyone, including on little girls.
>
> I gave you the name of the Hindu godess who is used to force prostitution on
> India girls.
Yes; so what? That doesn't establish that a religion forces
prostitution on anyone. Does the recent scandal in the RC church
establish that Roman Catholicism forces homosexuality on priests and
little boys?
> > > No other religion forces this profession on any other human being.
> > > The numbers are far greater in India then anywhere else.
> >
> > The numbers are zero in India, like in most other places.
>
> Go ahead sugar coat it all you want, but the reality is this practice is
> alive and well and laregely tolerated by Indians.
If it is largely tolerated, why is there a law against abusing the
Devadasi system to the end of prostitution?
Romanise
What in the bove indicates that anything of the above I have written.
You were advised by some to write your followup by atleast keeping the
text and its writer together.
Hope you got some job after Croydon gas station. Have parents arranged
a girl to sleep with?
Seeker
news:1d4c67e3.02080...@posting.google.com...
> "Seeker" <4not_listed_due_to_spam_bots_121101> wrote ...
> > "M. Ranjit Mathews" <ranjit_...@yahoo.com> wrote ...
> > > "Seeker" <4not_listed_due_to_spam_bots_121101> wrote ...
> > > > > > Devadasi system is wrong;
> > > > > No more than a system of ordaining nuns is wrong.
> > > > Bullshit.
> > >
> > > Why?
> >
> > No comparison between the two.
>
> Nuns are Devadasis.
Total bullshit and insulting towards Nuns. Nuns don't end up in tin sheds
sleeping with 20 to 30 men when they are 22.
> > All over India.
>
> Baloney. Where in Kerala or Tamilnadu may one find these priests?
> What instruments of force do you think are employed?
The use of the concept of Nirvana and a declaration of "bhagwan's" wish.
> > I gave you the name of the Hindu godess who is used to force
prostitution on
> > India girls.
>
> Yes; so what? That doesn't establish that a religion forces
> prostitution on anyone.
It does.
> Does the recent scandal in the RC church
> establish that Roman Catholicism forces homosexuality on priests and
> little boys?
Catholics don't have gods or saints promoting prosititution unlike Hinduism.
The Catholic church by ignoring the problematic priests in a way faciliated
the sexual abuse and that's why they are having to pay millions of dollars
in settlement.
> > Go ahead sugar coat it all you want, but the reality is this practice is
> > alive and well and laregely tolerated by Indians.
>
> If it is largely tolerated, why is there a law against abusing the
> Devadasi system to the end of prostitution?
This law like most Indian laws are only written in books collecting dusts.
They are not implemented, so who cares if there are laws on the books. There
are also laws against killing people, yet the Government of Gujrat
facilitated killings of thousands of defenseless Moslems. Go figure that
one.
Vishal
> What in the bove indicates that anything of the above I have written.
> You were advised by some to write your followup by atleast keeping the
> text and its writer together.
> Hope you got some job after Croydon gas station. Have parents arranged
> a girl to sleep with?
Please improve your sentence formation skills.
M. Ranjit Mathews
> "M. Ranjit Mathews" <ranjit_...@yahoo.com> wrote ...
> > "Seeker" <4not_listed_due_to_spam_bots_121101> wrote ...
> > > "M. Ranjit Mathews" <ranjit_...@yahoo.com> wrote ...
> > > > "Seeker" <4not_listed_due_to_spam_bots_121101> wrote ...
> > > > > > > Devadasi system is wrong;
> > > > > > No more than a system of ordaining nuns is wrong.
> > > > > Bullshit.
> > > >
> > > > Why?
> > >
> > > No comparison between the two.
> >
> > Nuns are Devadasis.
>
> Total bullshit and insulting towards Nuns.
Why? Devadasi means servant of God.
> Nuns don't end up in tin sheds
> sleeping with 20 to 30 men when they are 22.
Hindu devadasis are not the only devadasis who are (or who have been)
ever abused. There are (or have been) instances of abuse of Christian
devadasis (nuns) too.
http://www.crimelibrary.com/classics/marquis/2.htm
It was not unheard of for orgies to be held within the walls of
convents and abbeys, wherein priest, nuns, prostitutes and nobles
commingled to partake of the most scandalous and debauched activities.
http://www.thelinkup.com/nuns.html
Reports Detail Sexual Abuse of "Sisters" by "Fathers"
"Superior generals I have met were extremely concerned about the
harassment sisters were experiencing from priests in some areas. One
superior of a diocesan congregation, where several sisters became
pregnant by priests, has been at a complete loss to find an
appropriate solution. Another diocesan congregation has had to dismiss
over 20 sisters because of pregnancy, again in many cases by priests.
"Some priests are recommending that sisters take a contraceptive,
misleading them that 'the pill' will prevent transmission of HIV.
Others have actually encouraged abortion for sisters with whom they
have been involved. Some Catholic medical professionals employed in
Catholic hospitals have reported pressure being exerted on them by
priests to procure abortions in those hospitals for religious sisters.
> > > All over India.
> >
> > Baloney. Where in Kerala or Tamilnadu may one find these priests?
> > What instruments of force do you think are employed?
>
> The use of the concept of Nirvana and a declaration of "bhagwan's" wish.
What do priests declare to be "bhagwan's wish"? Where may one find a
wording of such a declaration?
> > > I gave you the name of the Hindu godess who is used to force
> prostitution on
> > > India girls.
> >
> > Yes; so what? That doesn't establish that a religion forces
> > prostitution on anyone.
>
> It does.
>
> > Does the recent scandal in the RC church
> > establish that Roman Catholicism forces homosexuality on priests and
> > little boys?
>
> Catholics don't have gods or saints promoting prosititution unlike Hinduism.
Roman Catholicism, like Hinduism, doesn't have gods or saints
promoting prostitution.
> The Catholic church by ignoring the problematic priests in a way faciliated
> the sexual abuse and that's why they are having to pay millions of dollars
> in settlement.
>
> > > Go ahead sugar coat it all you want, but the reality is this practice is
> > > alive and well and laregely tolerated by Indians.
> >
> > If it is largely tolerated, why is there a law against abusing the
> > Devadasi system to the end of prostitution?
>
> This law like most Indian laws are only written in books collecting dusts.
> They are not implemented, so who cares if there are laws on the books. There
> are also laws against killing people, yet the Government of Gujrat
> facilitated killings of thousands of defenseless Moslems. Go figure that
> one.
Interesting reasoning. One would suppose, then, that nikah is a
contract for prostitution since laws are not invoked against
middle-easterners who "marry" Indian Muslim girls for the prupose of
having one-night (or one week) stands and since such arrangements are
largely tolerated by Indian Muslims. One would also suppose that Islam
is the only religion in India whose marriage contract is a contract
for prostitution. Am I mimicing your reasoning closely?
koolfire_or
you are a pedophile, screwing your own underaged sister just becoz its
propagated in islam, you follow it,and your cousins rivet young
afghani boys,there is no country including mecca,where muslims have
accounted themselves as honourable and decent citizens on earth,you
are a hounded and hated race,so a rabble rousing matdherchod has no
locus standi discussing other religion,first stop peddling your mom,
who is sick and cannot undertake the strain of taking 10 customers a
day,just becoz you have greed for money...stop peddling those pathetic
islamic women in your custordy,and then come and talk about right and
wrong,you are a madherchood pimp,who needs to be spat at, and shot to
death,for the filth you spew,ackkkkkkkkkkk thoooooooooooo madherchod
seeker,you cannot argue a single line of argument rationally...becoz
you are a worthless,pimp bastard,and no one is debased and perverted
enough to look for an explanation from a hypocritical,perverted,filthy
pimp like you...fuck off and quit yapping faggot....go hump your baby
sister or daughter,thats more in line with your pre occupation and
work.
Gulshan Khan
wrote:
hehehe this motherchod barwah stutters after a good shafting by a
sulla after all he has to take after his pita Pirthvi.......
Aaaggggggrrrrr Tttthhhhooooo motherchod once a hindu always a barwah
Romanise
> Please improve your sentence formation skills.
How will it remove your deprevation?
Seeker
> visha...@yahoo.com (Vishal) wrote in message
>
> > Please improve your sentence formation skills.
>
> How will it remove your deprevation?
Any sign of itelligence from you will make just help us judge how wrong
Hindu religion is.
Seeker
news:be1bd88.02080...@posting.google.com...
> you are a pedophile,
I am? Tell me who squeeled. Was it your 6 year old sis who works as a
Devadasi at the Somnath Mandir temple.
> screwing your own underaged sister just becoz its
> propagated in islam, you follow it,and your cousins rivet young
> afghani boys,there is no country including mecca,where muslims have
> accounted themselves as honourable and decent citizens on earth,you
> are a hounded and hated race,so a rabble rousing matdherchod has no
> locus standi discussing other religion,
Hindu religion is wrong for forcing prostitution on young, lower class girls
in the name of religion.
> first stop peddling your mom,
> who is sick and cannot undertake the strain of taking 10 customers a
> day,just becoz you have greed for money...stop peddling those pathetic
> islamic women in your custordy,and then come and talk about right and
> wrong,you are a madherchood pimp,who needs to be spat at, and shot to
> death,for the filth you spew
What filth? I only write facts backed by true occurances and the Vedas.
>,ackkkkkkkkkkk thoooooooooooo madherchod
> seeker,you cannot argue a single line of argument rationally...becoz
> you are a worthless,pimp bastard,and no one is debased and perverted
> enough to look for an explanation from a hypocritical,perverted,filthy
> pimp like you.
You seem to be angry because you cannot rationally defend your position. Let
all the innocent underage girls who are ripped from their bosoms go free
from forced postitution. The concepts of nirvana are wrong. There is no need
to abuse those who are less fortunate than you.
>..fuck off and quit yapping faggot....go hump your baby
> sister or daughter,thats more in line with your pre occupation and
> work.
Hehehehe. Matherchod bharwa is losing it.
Seeker
news:1d4c67e3.02080...@posting.google.com...
Most of what you wrote was either wrong (i.e. not backed by facts) or pure
nonsense unworthy of a reply, but the following needs some clarification.
> Interesting reasoning. One would suppose, then, that nikah is a
> contract for prostitution since laws are not invoked against
> middle-easterners who "marry" Indian Muslim girls for the prupose of
> having one-night (or one week) stands and since such arrangements are
> largely tolerated by Indian Muslims.
Firstly your statement is not quite true. The practice of short term
marriages are only practiced by some Shiites; however, even then it is not
prostitution since the "wives" are granted legal and religion protection and
the ex-husbands are responsible for their well being. Needless to say if
this practice does happen in India, then India needs to stop it
> One would also suppose that Islam
> is the only religion in India whose marriage contract is a contract
> for prostitution.
By your rather idiotic argument all marriages where the widow is not burnt
alive are contracts of prostitution. Your view are backed by the beleifs of
your society where widows are viewed as subhuman trash and are burnt alive
since they are viewed as the ones responsible for stealing their husbands
lives. How pathetic.
>Am I mimicing your reasoning closely?
Not even by a long shot. You are just making some feeble and incoherent
arguments instead of doing something about the Hindu forced child
prostitution system. By defending it you are just as guilty as Hindus are
for promoting it.
M. Ranjit Mathews
> "M. Ranjit Mathews" <ranjit_...@yahoo.com> wrote ...
>
> Most of what you wrote was either wrong (i.e. not backed by facts) or pure
> nonsense unworthy of a reply, but the following needs some clarification.
>
> > Interesting reasoning. One would suppose, then, that nikah is a
> > contract for prostitution since laws are not invoked against
> > middle-easterners who "marry" Indian Muslim girls for the prupose of
> > having one-night (or one week) stands and since such arrangements are
> > largely tolerated by Indian Muslims.
>
> Firstly your statement is not quite true. The practice of short term
> marriages are only practiced by some Shiites;
The Arabs who marry Indian Muslim girls for short periods and then
talaq their way out of marriage are Sunnis, not Shiites. Any Muslim
man, not merely a Shiite, can weasel his way out of a marriage with a
talaq under Indian laws.
> however, even then it is not
> prostitution since the "wives" are granted legal and religion protection and
> the ex-husbands are responsible for their well being. Needless to say if
> this practice does happen in India, then India needs to stop it
India needs to stop the abuse of nikah like it needs to stop the abuse
of devadasi ordinations, but it doesn't dare to pass laws that would
effect changes necessary to stop the former like it has passed laws
necessary to stop the latter.
> > One would also suppose that Islam
> > is the only religion in India whose marriage contract is a contract
> > for prostitution.
>
> By your rather idiotic argument all marriages where the widow is not burnt
> alive are contracts of prostitution. Your view are backed by the beleifs of
> your society where widows are viewed as subhuman trash and are burnt alive
> since they are viewed as the ones responsible for stealing their husbands
> lives. How pathetic.
Widows are burned when they are die, not when they are alive.
> >Am I mimicing your reasoning closely?
>
> Not even by a long shot. You are just making some feeble and incoherent
> arguments instead of doing something about the Hindu forced child
> prostitution system. By defending it you are just as guilty as Hindus are
> for promoting it.
Perish the thought. I haven't defended any child prostitution system.
There is child prostitution, but there is no devadasi Hindu child
prostitution system anymore than there is a nikah Islamic child
prostitution system.
Romanise
> Any sign of itelligence from you will make just help us judge how wrong
> Hindu religion is.
Do you have any interest in made help judge anything right?
koolfire_or
> "koolfire_or" <rohit_...@lycos.com> wrote in message
> news:be1bd88.02080...@posting.google.com...
> > you are a pedophile,
>
> I am? Tell me who squeeled. Was it your 6 year old sis who works as a
> Devadasi at the Somnath Mandir temple.
of course you are,just check with your sis or daughter,whoever comes
first.
> > screwing your own underaged sister just becoz its
> > propagated in islam, you follow it,and your cousins rivet young
> > afghani boys,there is no country including mecca,where muslims have
> > accounted themselves as honourable and decent citizens on earth,you
> > are a hounded and hated race,so a rabble rousing matdherchod has no
> > locus standi discussing other religion,
>
> Hindu religion is wrong for forcing prostitution on young, lower class girls
> in the name of religion.
islam is wrong from the time the choothia madherchod prophet tried to
profit from screwing a six year old near infant,which was solomenised
by some fucking ghandoo idiots wrongly.
> > first stop peddling your mom,
> > who is sick and cannot undertake the strain of taking 10 customers a
> > day,just becoz you have greed for money...stop peddling those pathetic
> > islamic women in your custordy,and then come and talk about right and
> > wrong,you are a madherchood pimp,who needs to be spat at, and shot to
> > death,for the filth you spew
>
> What filth? I only write facts backed by true occurances and the Vedas.
so does everyone about islam,there is no reason for us to be acting
as truthfull,becoz if you refer islam, its full of fucking
perversion,and we only refer it in its true form of filth,only if some
ghandoo talks about islam in a manner, which is platable to
humans,will be the person be talking falsehood.
> >,ackkkkkkkkkkk thoooooooooooo madherchod
> > seeker,you cannot argue a single line of argument rationally...becoz
> > you are a worthless,pimp bastard,and no one is debased and perverted
> > enough to look for an explanation from a hypocritical,perverted,filthy
> > pimp like you.
>
> You seem to be angry because you cannot rationally defend your position. Let
> all the innocent underage girls who are ripped from their bosoms go free
> from forced postitution. The concepts of nirvana are wrong. There is no need
> to abuse those who are less fortunate than you.
angry what for,i enjoy riveting paindoos,i always go back with a
smile after posting to ghandoos like yourself,only when you ghandoos
dont respond i get annoyed,and its difficult to ignore me:)))) i am a
paki paindoo shafting spacialist...hehehe see gulshan and choora
123,almost shafted to oblivion,what more co-operation can i expect
from paindoo pakis,they wait with bated breath in anticipation.
> >..fuck off and quit yapping faggot....go hump your baby
> > sister or daughter,thats more in line with your pre occupation and
> > work.
>
> Hehehehe. Matherchod bharwa is losing it.
hehe what am i loosing chinall,you are not willing to follow your own
religion and feeling bad to hump your six or two year sold sis and
daughter as writted in arsewipe quran,why the fuck should i care,what
you do with your infant whores at home.
Seeker
news:be1bd88.02080...@posting.google.com...
> "Seeker" <4not_listed_due_to_spam_bots_121101> wrote in message
news:<aikacg$2lq$1...@slb7.atl.mindspring.net>...
> > Hindu religion is wrong for forcing prostitution on young, lower class
girls
> > in the name of religion.
>
> islam is wrong from the time the choothia madherchod prophet tried to
> profit from screwing a six year old near infant,which was solomenised
> by some fucking ghandoo idiots wrongly.
So you do agree that the Hindu practice of turning lower class infant girls
into child prostitute for the enjoyment of the upper castes and the priests
is wrong. Furthermore, you do agree that Hindu religion is wrong is
promoting this human right abuse of the vedic proportion. So, I take it that
you will join hands with me in eradicating this Hindu menace. I congratulate
you on your excellent choice. Eliminate Hindu religion's human right
violations.
> > What filth? I only write facts backed by true occurances and the Vedas.
>
>
> so does everyone about islam,there is no reason for us to be acting
> as truthfull,becoz if you refer islam, its full of fucking
> perversion,and we only refer it in its true form of filth,only if some
> ghandoo talks about islam in a manner, which is platable to
> humans,will be the person be talking falsehood.
You are free to reform the system just as I am free to eradicate Hindu
violence towards lower class baby girls must be eradicated or every
civilized person on this planet is a facilitator in this gruesome Hindu
practice.
> > >,ackkkkkkkkkkk thoooooooooooo madherchod
> > > seeker,you cannot argue a single line of argument rationally...becoz
> > > you are a worthless,pimp bastard,and no one is debased and perverted
> > > enough to look for an explanation from a hypocritical,perverted,filthy
> > > pimp like you.
> >
> > You seem to be angry because you cannot rationally defend your position.
Let
> > all the innocent underage girls who are ripped from their bosoms go free
> > from forced postitution. The concepts of nirvana are wrong. There is no
need
> > to abuse those who are less fortunate than you.
>
>
> angry what for,i enjoy riveting paindoos,i always go back with a
> smile after posting to ghandoos like yourself,only when you ghandoos
> dont respond i get annoyed,and its difficult to ignore me:)))) i am a
> paki paindoo shafting spacialist...hehehe see gulshan and choora
> 123,almost shafted to oblivion,what more co-operation can i expect
> from paindoo pakis,they wait with bated breath in anticipation.
Only if you spend the same of energy in eradicating Hindu violence towards
the lower class Hindu and woemn in general.
>
>
>
> > >..fuck off and quit yapping faggot....go hump your baby
> > > sister or daughter,thats more in line with your pre occupation and
> > > work.
> >
> > Hehehehe. Matherchod bharwa is losing it.
>
> hehe what am i loosing chinall,you are not willing to follow your own
> religion and feeling bad to hump your six or two year sold sis and
> daughter as writted in arsewipe quran,why the fuck should i care,what
> you do with your infant whores at home.
The word is writtEN not writted. I am not the least bit surprised with your
angy outburst since maintaining status quo in Hindu religion is to your
benefit since you get to "enjoy" 5 year old Devadasis. How barbaric!!!
Hinduism is a barbaric religion started by a two bit thug Vishnu and Indra.
M. Ranjit Mathews
> "M. Ranjit Mathews" <ranjit_...@yahoo.com> wrote ...
>
> Most of what you wrote was either wrong (i.e. not backed by facts) or pure
> nonsense unworthy of a reply, but the following needs some clarification.
>
> > Interesting reasoning. One would suppose, then, that nikah is a
> > contract for prostitution since laws are not invoked against
> > having one-night (or one week) stands and since such arrangements are
> > largely tolerated by Indian Muslims.
>
> Firstly your statement is not quite true.
Of course, it's not true. Not only is it not quite true; it is not at
all true but then, it is not a statement; it is a parody of your
statement(s).
Gulshan Khan
wrote:
>"Seeker" <4not_listed_due_to_spam_bots_121101> wrote in message news:<aikacg$2lq$1...@slb7.atl.mindspring.net>...
>> "koolfire_or" <rohit_...@lycos.com> wrote in message
>> news:be1bd88.02080...@posting.google.com...
>> > you are a pedophile,
>>
>> I am? Tell me who squeeled. Was it your 6 year old sis who works as a
>> Devadasi at the Somnath Mandir temple.
>
>of course you are,just check with your sis or daughter,whoever comes
>first.
>
I checked and I found your mata and didi in a mandir in Michigan..
Your mata and sis are fertilized again.
Seeker
news:ddqskuc5poju3pkpg...@4ax.com...
> On 5 Aug 2002 00:10:31 -0700, rohit_...@lycos.com (koolfire_or)
> wrote:
>
> >"Seeker" <4not_listed_due_to_spam_bots_121101> wrote in message
news:<aikacg$2lq$1...@slb7.atl.mindspring.net>...
> >> "koolfire_or" <rohit_...@lycos.com> wrote in message
> >> news:be1bd88.02080...@posting.google.com...
> >> > you are a pedophile,
> >>
> >> I am? Tell me who squeeled. Was it your 6 year old sis who works as a
> >> Devadasi at the Somnath Mandir temple.
> >
> >of course you are,just check with your sis or daughter,whoever comes
> >first.
> >
>
> I checked and I found your mata and didi in a mandir in Michigan..
> Your mata and sis are fertilized again.
Hare Hare. They have once again to their hearts content discovered the
supreme Sulla ka Lulla.
Shanti Sulla Shanti
Seeker
I don't follow. Please clarify.
Gulshan Khan
The moment they see sulla ka lulla they first go in worship mode then
in fuck mode and last but not least suck mode.
hare om hare om
Alexander
"Seeker" <4not_listed_due_to_spam_bots_121101> wrote in message
Considering you already proven how wrong the Islamic religion is.
>
>
Alexander
"Seeker" <4not_listed_due_to_spam_bots_121101> wrote in message
> "M. Ranjit Mathews" <ranjit_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1d4c67e3.02080...@posting.google.com...
>
> Most of what you wrote was either wrong (i.e. not backed by facts) or pure
> nonsense unworthy of a reply, but the following needs some clarification.
>
> > Interesting reasoning. One would suppose, then, that nikah is a
> > contract for prostitution since laws are not invoked against
> > middle-easterners who "marry" Indian Muslim girls for the prupose of
> > having one-night (or one week) stands and since such arrangements are
> > largely tolerated by Indian Muslims.
>
> Firstly your statement is not quite true. The practice of short term
> marriages are only practiced by some Shiites; however, even then it is not
> prostitution since the "wives" are granted legal and religion protection
and
> the ex-husbands are responsible for their well being. Needless to say if
> this practice does happen in India, then India needs to stop it
Funny how it's practiced different than what you state
>
> > One would also suppose that Islam
> > is the only religion in India whose marriage contract is a contract
> > for prostitution.
>
> By your rather idiotic argument all marriages where the widow is not burnt
> alive are contracts of prostitution. Your view are backed by the beleifs
of
> your society where widows are viewed as subhuman trash and are burnt alive
> since they are viewed as the ones responsible for stealing their husbands
> lives. How pathetic.
Is that the same reasoning where the women of Islam are basically forced to
be gang rapped by the order of your clerics. How about shot in a soccer
field...how about not being able to smile or laugh or even be educated
enough that they realize how stupid your religion is.
>
> >Am I mimicing your reasoning closely?
>
> Not even by a long shot. You are just making some feeble and incoherent
> arguments instead of doing something about the Hindu forced child
> prostitution system. By defending it you are just as guilty as Hindus are
> for promoting it.
As incoherent as your reasoning
>
>
Alexander
"Seeker" <4not_listed_due_to_spam_bots_121101> wrote in message
I guess the language of English is incoherent to you
>
>
Alexander
"Seeker" <4not_listed_due_to_spam_bots_121101> wrote in message
Are you chanting to your dick god again
>
>
Alexander
"Seeker" <4not_listed_due_to_spam_bots_121101> wrote in message
> "koolfire_or" <rohit_...@lycos.com> wrote in message
> news:be1bd88.02080...@posting.google.com...
> > "Seeker" <4not_listed_due_to_spam_bots_121101> wrote in message
> news:<aikacg$2lq$1...@slb7.atl.mindspring.net>...
>
> > > Hindu religion is wrong for forcing prostitution on young, lower class
> girls
> > > in the name of religion.
> >
> > islam is wrong from the time the choothia madherchod prophet tried to
> > profit from screwing a six year old near infant,which was solomenised
> > by some fucking ghandoo idiots wrongly.
>
> So you do agree that the Hindu practice of turning lower class infant
girls
> into child prostitute for the enjoyment of the upper castes and the
priests
> is wrong. Furthermore, you do agree that Hindu religion is wrong is
> promoting this human right abuse of the vedic proportion. So, I take it
that
> you will join hands with me in eradicating this Hindu menace. I
congratulate
> you on your excellent choice. Eliminate Hindu religion's human right
> violations.
Can you ever stay on the same topic lund boy
>
> > > What filth? I only write facts backed by true occurances and the
Vedas.
> >
> >
> > so does everyone about islam,there is no reason for us to be acting
> > as truthfull,becoz if you refer islam, its full of fucking
> > perversion,and we only refer it in its true form of filth,only if some
> > ghandoo talks about islam in a manner, which is platable to
> > humans,will be the person be talking falsehood.
>
> You are free to reform the system just as I am free to eradicate Hindu
> violence towards lower class baby girls must be eradicated or every
> civilized person on this planet is a facilitator in this gruesome Hindu
> practice.
Same can be said about your religion
"Barbaric", is that the same barbaric religion of yours that allows women to
be subjecated to daily beatings, stoning, Burka wearing. How about
execution in a soccer field where the rest of the gand lickers can watch and
masterbate.
>
>
Alexander
Why are you worshiping then
Allah Fuckbar
koolfire_or
> On 8 Aug 2002 09:39:58 -0700, rohit_...@lycos.com (koolfire_or)
> wrote:
>
> >Gulshan Khan <Gulshan...@deja.com> wrote in message news:<54k3lucod4g10a31a...@4ax.com>...
> >> On 7 Aug 2002 09:58:12 -0700, rohit_...@lycos.com (koolfire_or)
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >Gulshan Khan <Gulshan...@deja.com> wrote in message news:<i3s0luog46et5dvqt...@4ax.com>...
> >> >> On 6 Aug 2002 11:29:17 -0700, rohit_...@lycos.com (koolfire_or)
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> >Gulshan Khan <Gulshan...@deja.com> wrote in message news:<nv6tkugieh7cile8b...@4ax.com>...
> >> >> >pen,for surrender wholesale mode.....or like his this pimp and his
> >> >> >randi mom/wife/sis,buissness mode or appeasment mode.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Oh yeah starting from Qasim all the way to Bahdur Shah but your lfe
> >> >> was spared for offering your kaloo didi to invading islamic hawaldar.
> >> >>
> >> >> Agggrrr ttthhhooooo motherchod barwah-a-bahRAT always in pimping mode.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >:)))madherchod you are under some illusion that your grand ghand
> >> >parents were not hindoos...you became a muslim barwah out of the blue
> >> >or what....i must probe your mom and wife tonight:)))))))))
> >>
> >>
> >> hehehehe motherchod what makes you think I look like a kalloo hindu...
> >> aggggrrrrrr ttthhhhoooooo motherchod duffer.
> >
> >see this paindoo bastard,he has been my pimp for years
>
>
> hahahaha was I bringing clients for your mata and didi.... motherchod
> barwah-a-bahRAT retard fucking duffer chootia. I know you are a
> gandoo and your mata and didi devdaisi.....
>
> Aaaggggggrrrrr Tttthhhhooooo motherchod once a hindu always a barwah
:)))) you were my pimp,to bring your mom and sis,as always,why bother
about semantics,when its obvious,you are resident pimp of scp...and
taking all the money from me was for what you ghandoo,for running
errands for me,its for bringing your mom,to any place i want.
Gulshan Khan
wrote:
hehehe ever wondered why your mata and didi fell in love with sulla ka
lulla. Its 1000 years of legacy they only want katu clients not ugly
hindu kalloos. hehehe you know why GHAURI fucked PIRTHVI because your
papa PIRTHVI was a hijra. heheh fucking retard like his kallo looks...
Aaaggggrrrr ttthhhoooo motherchod once a hindu always a barwah...
koolfire_or
no your mom never wonders anything when i hump her,there is no time
for wondering,only action,you noodle dick pimp cannot do anything and
you keep wondering so many things.....why should i wonder about ghauri
and prithvi,when your wife and mom are with me,you are a muslim from
india and you got 50% hindoo genes ,so you keep wondering abt prithvi
and ghauri...yu are the hybrid cross breed ghandoo madherchudai
here......we are 100 pure race:)))))))))))))
Gulshan Khan
wrote:
khe khe khe so at the sight of sulla ka lulla you don't give a second
thought. I know I know your women do the same they are in the habbit
of sulla ka lulla... hehehe yes you should not wonder how Ghauri
fucked Pirthvi coz your suppose to get fucked that is your fate..
hehehe fucking kallo superior genes hahahahahahaha....
Sandar
> > semblance of truth, it is a wrong practice and is rejected by Islam.
> >
> > Hinduism, however, bounds young, helpless girls into slavery for a miserable
> > life of torture and suffering. Devadasi system is wrong; pointing fingers at
> > an incident in Saudi Arabia will not change that. As a Hindu why don't you
> > reform your society and save millions of hapless victims of the "priests"
>
> First to the facts,
> Prostitution under devdasi system is a crime under Indian law and
> Indian laws are not governed by Hinduism.
> coming to reform I can only say that jo log shisho ker ghar main
> rahten hain woh dosro per pather nahin fakten .
Must you use your language?
Sandar
many books on Islam compared to militant Islam and the least you could
do it to understand the difference.
I noticed that there are many books because a couple of years ago, as
I browsed through religion section, I only saw a few books on Islam
but now I saw a bunch. I didn't even go there to see look for those
books. I went to study there ( at home I just waste time) and chose
to sit in the area which happened to be just near that area and today,
the chair I got was facing that direction and my eyes landed on those
book. As always, I got curious and started reading those instaed of
studying.
I am typing out what's written on the book cover:
In the book "Militant Islam reached America" Daniel Pipes explains
what militant Islam is and stresses the large and crucial difference
between Islam, the faith, and militant Islam, the ideology.
He demonstrates that it is not a clash of civilizations under way
but a battle for the soul of Islam among Muslims themselves. He shows
that militant Islam is not caused by poverty and that its adherents,
far from being dispossessed, tend to include the more talented and
Westernized elements.
On page 10: Although militant Islam is often seen as a form of Islam,
it is profoundly different. Traditional Islam seeks to teach human
beings how to live in accord with God's will; militant Islam aspires
to create a new order. The first is self-confident, the second deeply
defensive. One emphasizes individual, the other communities. One is a
personal credo, the other a political ideology.
....
.....
....
The differences are stark when one looks at the two sets of leaders.
Traditionalists go through a static and lengthy course of study in
which they study a huge corpus of information and learn the Islamic
verities much as their ancestors did centuries earlier. Their faith
reflects a millennium and more of debate among scholars, jurists, and
theologians. Militant Islamic leaders tend to be well educated in the
sciences, not in Islam; when in their twenties or so, they discover
problems that their modern learning cannot cope with, so they
belatedly turn to Islam. They ignore nearly entire corpus of Islamic
learning and read the Qur'an on their own and interpret it however
they see fit. As autodidacts, they dismiss the traditions and apply
their own (modern) sensibilities to the ancient texts, leading to an
oddly Protestant version of Islam.
The modern world stymies traditional figures who, educated in
old-fashioned subjects, have not studied European languages, spent
time in the west, have not mastered its secrets. For example, the
traditional religious figures rarely know how to exploit the radio,
television, or internet to spread their message. In contrast,
militant Islamic leaders usually know Western languages, often have
lived abroad, and tend to be very well versed in technology.
Symbolically, the Internet has hundreds of militant Islamic sites but
few traditionally pious ones. Farncois Burgart and William Dowell
notes this contrast in their study of North Africa:
<<The village elder, who is close to the religious establishment and
knows little of Western culture (from which he refuses technology a
priori) cannot be confused with the young science student who is more
than able to deliver a criticism of Western values, with which he is
familiar and from which he is able to appropriate certain dimensions.
The traditionalist will reject television, afraid of the devastated
modernism that it will bring; the Islamists calls for increasing the
number of sets, .once he had gained control of the broadcast. >>
In brief, the militant Islam represents a thoroughly modern effort
to come to terms with the challenges of modernization.
Traditionalists fear the West, but Islamists are eager to challenge
it. The late Mufti of Saudi Arabia, Abd al-'Aziz 'bin Baz, represented
the scared old guard, ....
.....
.....
This contrast not only implies that militant Islam threatens in a
way that the traditional Islam does not; it also implies that
traditional Muslims, who are often the first victims of militant
Islam, hate this ideology. The great majority of Muslims disagree with
the premises of militant Islam, and a small number do so vocally.
...
...
...
As an ideology, militant Islam can claim none of the sanctity that
Islam the religion enjoys. While remaining respectful of the Islamic
faith, outsiders can in good conscience criticize and combat militant
Islam.
Vishal
> As an ideology, militant Islam can claim none of the sanctity that
> Islam the religion enjoys. While remaining respectful of the Islamic
> faith, outsiders can in good conscience criticize and combat militant
> Islam.
Excellent Post and I hope the world sees more of your version of
Islam.
It is the beneficial to all as you said that first victims of
militant Islam are the Muslims themselves.
Vishal
> but a battle for the soul of Islam among Muslims themselves. He shows
Any ideas on how this battle will be won by the non militant group?
I think for this to happen the biggest exporters of terrorism Saudi
Arabia has to be tackled rather than Iraq.
koolfire_or
khe khe khe that is 50% hindoo response...the rest of it is stupid
muslim response....you are a half hindoo guy,the only reason i am
humping your mom/sis/wife/daughter is to bring them back to
sanity...ghauri fucked your anscestors thats why you are a
paindoo:)))))))) you have to live a half hindoo always....al least
your wife and mom have the satisfaction of humping hindoos:)))))) you
dont have that option.
Gulshan Khan
wrote:
Tha same sulla response that ruled your ass for hazar saal.... What a
fucking duffer disowning his papa Pirthvi after having his kallo gand
torn apart by Ghauri...... SO when did your genes became superior
before sulla rule or after. hahahah fucking kallo gunger....
Sauron Maskee
Yak Yak Yak! Fuck you and your terrorist family.
koolfire_or
stop crying.....50% hindoo,its not my fault you are hanging in mid
air,we dont accept loosers like you,who are pure race.:)))))...try
your luck with 100% muslims..they mat accept you:)))))))
Gulshan Khan
wrote:
heheh how did inferior genes managed to rule the ass of superior genes
for hazar saal.. khe khe khe kallo start blabbering every time...
hahahaha what a fucking retard what a retard. Oh I know every time
a sulla hawaldar khanned a hindu your genes become superior. I bet
you come from the line of Pirthvi..... hehehehehehhe.......
koolfire_or
hehehe we showed you for what loosers you are in 71,did we surrender
e.pakistan,no you inferior people of 50% islam did it,you wanto know
more,see the link i posted on 71 war:))))))))first and formost you are
hindooo,keep that in mind,your mata was the weak link in hindoos,who
got humped and made you a hybrid...even muslims dont accept you....nor
will hindoos:)))))))
Gulshan Khan
wrote:
hehehe hazar saal gand merwa merwa kay merwa merwa kay you shown the
world what kind of kallo gandoo you are. A superior genes that got
fucked by every passer by even African slaves fucked you in broad day
light..
hare Om hare Om
koolfire_or
:))))) no use screaming....fact is you are 50% hindoo..i posted a paki
link accepting the fact,so is the case of you surrnndering in
71,plenty of links are there........and you are the result of arab
invasion:)))))))...we are 100% indians...we dont share your raped or
cross bred misery....there is nothing you can do abt it,added to it
india is way ahead in development and left you crossbreeds to rot in
the gutter:)))))))sorrrryyyyyyyyy yu save yourself..hehehehe
Gulshan Khan
wrote:
He he No need to be so defensive about your kallo genes after all
Africans were only inferior genes they managed to pump their CUM and
produce kallos like you... You shoudl be proud of your superior
multinational kallo genes.... :)))))))
koolfire_or
:))))))) why did you stop posting your hare om hare om....after all
you are half hindoo......hehehehe there are no kallo who came to
india.....if you are black,as usual check your moms
behaviour...hrhehehehe hindoo kalooo/muslim...arabs will not accept
this ....at most you a harijan muslim:)))))) by they way they mistreat
pakistanis.:))))))))muslim ummah does not work here or what:)))))
Reghu R
We pure hindus learned about India and its problem from these postings.
Thank you for pointing out.
We will clean India and those who oppose it.
Thank You.
Vishal
> > rahten hain woh dosro per pather nahin fakten .
>
> Must you use your language?
Why not?