Is This a Accurate Picture of Paris and France?
Throb
it accurate?
In summary, a deceptive place which is still conservative and has very
traditional values, all covered by a thick layer of pretence. Class and accent
are still very important. You may say most people in the country are living in a
world of fantasy while the real world is very different. It is culturally sealed
to outside influence, paranoid about its declining status to the benefit of the
English speaking world. It has a centralist and narcissus character and must be
told all the time its great and beautiful, otherwise it becomes very
bad-tempered and difficult. It can be very cruel and mean and rationalise this
with little conscience. It is becoming disoriented.
Going into more detail, there appears to be a war between the real culture and
the imaginary culture of France. Real France is said to be very oppressive and
even dangerous which raises its head, for example, during the Nazi collaboration
with Germany in WW II. Cruel events, like the zealous deportation of Jews to
death camps, is erased or rationalised. They are living in two separate worlds
like some kind of schizophrenics. One is the harsh world and the other is the
make-believe world which most think is the true France.
They have become very paranoid about their culture and are making frenzied
efforts to live in a static world by eliminating all external influence on its
culture especially fashion, cooking, sex and language. I am sorry France, but
the whole world and indeed the whole Universe is an exchange. Will Ye not
understand? While the rest of the world is opening up to each other, France is
closing up. Vive la Difference!
After WWII, the decline of France was inevitable because of its close
collaboration with Nazis. This exposed the country and sapped it of its moral,
political and cultural strength. In 1956, English replaced French as the
official language of diplomacy. This was to be expected, since they
undiplomatically sided with a heinous ideology which the English speaking world
had to stop (ie. Nazism). The rise of English as an international language was
inevitable, for which the French have only themselves and their opportunism to
blame. French as a prominent language has become passe, maybe deservedly so.
Class and accent are still strongly valued. Regardless of how fluent (you could
even be rare poet) or capable you are in the language, your potential is still
determined by by your accent and class. A slight difference in accent can single
you out for doom. How narrow and backward! In the US, accent is not important at
all. All types of immigrants speak with a variety of accents. It is the content
that is important.
There is a special meanness towards children which, along with other reasons,
indicates that the country needs some kind of education and therapy in this
respect. Exploitation of children and sexual abuse (kiddie porn) is widespread.
Perhaps the culture lends itself to this. They do not seem to understand or
respect children. The world of children is grey indeed.
Some aspects of the culture can only be called lunatic. The fashion world is a
good example. Here you have women from all over the world marching ( are you
still marching?) down catwalks who really look like robots, disconnected
enemotional and isolated zombies. Most are on drugs, promoting the "druggie is
beautiful" look. They are unofficial prostitutes as well, serving to provide sex
to hordes of male perverts in the fashionworld. French feminists think this is
just great. A numb,drugged whore is a great ideal for women.
These are just some of the views. Any comments or clarification on this?
Peter J Lusby
> These are just some of the views. Any comments or clarification on this?
Nope. You're on your own with this pathetic troll.
Now FOAD
Warm regards
Peter
--
"A dust whom England bore, shaped, made aware"- Rupert Brooke, "The Soldier"
Peter J. Lusby
http://www.lusby.org
Michael Voight
Throb wrote:
>
> These are just some of the views. Any comments or clarification on this?
Get some help.
Bob P
Michael Voight <mvo...@cisco.com> wrote in message
news:3AD3F1A4...@cisco.com...
>
>
> Throb wrote:
> >
> > These are just some of the views. Any comments or clarification on this?
>
> Get some help.
Yes, you really do need some professional help!
k_sumter
(Honi soit qui mal y pense.) Visitors to France will have a more
enjoyable trip if they go with an understanding of the culture and some
of its many idiosyncracies.
1. Closed culture;
2. Narcissistic attitudes;
3. Paranoid about there world status;
4. They aren't "mean" to their children, they rule them with an iron
hand which probably aint so bad.
5. They do have delusions of superiority.
Read Polly Plat's "French or Foe" to discover the true French culture.
This book is a must read for any visitor and particularly valuable for
any extended stay.
Greg Shenaut
> After WWII, the decline of France was inevitable because of its close
> collaboration with Nazis.
It might be interesting for you to read about the controversies that
surrounded Nazi occupation of France: what were Petain's motivations?
Who were the Free French & the Resistance? What happened to those
accused of collaboration after the war?
And, perhaps equally relevant: what did people do in other countries
occupied by the Nazis during WWII? Were there no collaborators?
What of the Germans themselves: was their decline "inevitable"?
> Class and accent are still strongly valued. Regardless of how fluent (you could
> even be rare poet) or capable you are in the language, your potential is still
> determined by by your accent and class. A slight difference in accent can single
> you out for doom. How narrow and backward! In the US, accent is not important at
> all. All types of immigrants speak with a variety of accents. It is the content
> that is important.
Have you actually ever been in the US? This is about as false a
statement as I have heard: accent is tremendously important in the
US. I can't address how important it is in France, because I don't
know. If you want an example of a true cultural difference between
France and the US in terms of factors that affect one's career
trajectory, I would say that the role of one's school and education
is considerably more important in France than in the US, from what
I've heard, but whether this is a negative on France or a negative
on the US is open to debate.
> There is a special meanness towards children which, along with other reasons,
> indicates that the country needs some kind of education and therapy in this
> respect. Exploitation of children and sexual abuse (kiddie porn) is widespread.
> Perhaps the culture lends itself to this. They do not seem to understand or
> respect children. The world of children is grey indeed.
And of course these things are unknown in the rest of the world
(not!). What evidence have you that exploitation of children takes
place at different levels in the various European countries? You
have presented none, and I for one do not accept your unsupported
statement of it as true. Bogus.
> Some aspects of the culture can only be called lunatic.
From my point of view, some aspects of "culture" everywhere will
always be lunatic. It doesn't seem any more loonie in France than
anywhere else.
In summary, I don't think that you are, technically speaking, a
troll, because you posted a fairly lengthy and carefully (albeit
erroneously) thought-out post to a group that has at least some
connection to its content. However, it seems to me that your
perspective may be a bit limited in that what you are accusing
France of doing and being, are basically the universal negative
aspects of being a modern country in today's world.
Greg Shenaut
ClaireAbunga
>
They treat their children badly? The French parents I know totally dote on
their children, but also disciplined their children fairly.
At least they don't allow their children to be undisciplined brats (for the
most part) as in some other country that I could talk about (like the one where
my husband is from).
glen black
understanding travel agent..Maybe ? Or just never go to France. glen b.
Robert Buxbaum
<Throb_...@newsranger.com> wrote:
>These are just some of the views. Any comments or clarification on this?
Indeed you've certainly been selective in your choice of views. The views
you've chosen to present are fairly inaccurate and less than complete where
they have a modicum of truth and libelously fly in the face of the truth at
other times.
Early on in reading your post, I suspected it was a view with blinders on
and through strangely tinted glasses. At times I wondered if it wasn't
through a mirror and into your own psyche.
Your fashion world comments could just as well apply to NY or LA as well as
Paris, but in any even probably don't even apply to the majority in the
fashion world, let alone to the majority of Parisians.
I'm not a great fan of the French education system, (hell, I'm not a fan of
that in the US, but perhaps being a product of the US, I prefer its faults
in encouraging creativity.) but your belief in the support of kiddie porn is
probably due to an overactive and sick imagination. My guess is that you'd
find Paris disappointing.
I'd go on, but I've really credited you with a much more serious reply than
your toll warranted.
--
<www.worldtable.com> Food/Wine/Travel
-
new offer for car rental and leasing in Europe
posted 21 June 2000
Peter J Lusby
> In article <3AD46083...@hwa.net>, k_sumter <ks8...@hwa.net>
> wrote:
>
> > Read Polly Plat's "French or Foe" to discover the true French culture.
> > This book is a must read for any visitor and particularly valuable for
> > any extended stay.
>
> I agree. Just finished Platt's book in preparation for nine days in
> Paris and then a longer stay starting in mid-May. Excellent book, and
> i'm anxious to see how accurate her generalizations are. Especially
> about not ever making "real" friends. That disappoints me if it's true...
Platt's book is good as far as it goes, and so is her "Savoir Flair", but I would recommend Mastron & Asselin "Au
Contraire! - Figuring Out The French" for a thorough, accurate, contemporary and entertaining analysis from an
American perspective. This is the book which should be mandatory reading for anyone planning a trip to France
for any reason.
Warm regards
Peter
--
"A dust whom England bore. shaped, made aware" - Rupert Brooke - The Soldier
Peter J Lusby
p...@Lusby.org
http://www.lusby.org
Peter J Lusby
> C'mon, troll or not, the post does have some elements of truth to it.
All effective trolls do. The object is to stir up controversy, get people
arguing among themselves, fighting even, while the original perpetrator sits back
and laughs. If this were a genuine enquiry, the poster would (a) not have
cross-posted to the soc.culture groups, (b) not have opened the dialogue with a
lengthy critique of the French culture, history and way of life and (c) have
studiously avoided dragging in chimerae like French collaboration with the Nazis
in 1940-45.
The only way to respond to this kind of shit-stirring is to ignore the content and
attack the author.
Warm regards
Peter
--
Philippe Torres
>
Why don't you come to France and make an idea by yourself ? But perhaps
is it more comfortable to live with such sad prejudices about others'
culture.
All that reeks of insecurity if you ask me.
Philippe
Donna Evleth
--
----------
Dans l'article <3AD46083...@hwa.net>, k_sumter <ks8...@hwa.net> a
écrit :
> C'mon, troll or not, the post does have some elements of truth to it.
> (Honi soit qui mal y pense.) Visitors to France will have a more
> enjoyable trip if they go with an understanding of the culture and some
> of its many idiosyncracies.
>
> 1. Closed culture;
>
> 2. Narcissistic attitudes;
>
> 3. Paranoid about there world status;
>
> 4. They aren't "mean" to their children, they rule them with an iron
> hand which probably aint so bad.
>
> 5. They do have delusions of superiority.
>
> Read Polly Plat's "French or Foe" to discover the true French culture.
> This book is a must read for any visitor and particularly valuable for
> any extended stay.
I own Polly Platt's book. I was bemused by it. I have lived in France for
almost 30 years, and have never met any of the people she describes. I
wondered, in fact, what country she was talking about. I was particularly
mystified by the chapter on ""French Time", having been visited by an
incredible number of late Americans, some of them people I was supposed to
work with (I am an archival researcher) who showed up 45 minutes late,
leaving me cooling my heels with nothing to do. But the worst are the
Americans who, when I am visiting them in the US, want to drive me to the
airport. Americans believe in giving the plane a sporting chance, and
getting to the airport at the very last possible minute. I have had near
heart attacks over this several times. Even our daughter, who was raised
better but now lives in the US, has caught this habit, and missed her plane
on one of her visits to us. She arrived at the airport too late.
Polly also talks a lot about having to be "properly" dressed - the whole
works, with makeup and panty hose - just to go out to the boulangerie to buy
bread. Not in my neighborhood, Polly. Most of the women here wear pants.
And then there is the "rallye", something which exists only in the snooty
parts of Paris. Not here, in the 6th.
And those are just the major troubles I had with this woman's book. If I
really believed that this book described the "true French culture", I
wouldn't even be here anymore.
>
>
Donna Evleth
Donna Evleth
--
----------
Dans l'article <9b1o1v$5e9$2...@woodrow.ucdavis.edu>, Greg Shenaut
<gr...@bogslab.ucdavis.edu> a écrit :
I have managed to become a respected scholar - on the period of World War
II, incidentally - without having a perfect accent. I once gave a talk on
the subject of the image of women in the Resistance at the leading school in
social science here, in French, which was extremely well received. I came
to France as an adult. I knew that at my age, especially since I am tone
deaf, I would never be able to master the accent. So I deliberately chose
not to agonize over this, but to move on to more crucial points like grammar
and vocabulary. Especially vocabulary. I have done just fine.
Donna Evleth
>>
Philippe Torres
>
> --
>
> ----------
> Dans l'article <3AD46083...@hwa.net>, k_sumter <ks8...@hwa.net> a
> écrit :
>
> > C'mon, troll or not, the post does have some elements of truth to it.
> > (Honi soit qui mal y pense.) Visitors to France will have a more
> > enjoyable trip if they go with an understanding of the culture and some
> > of its many idiosyncracies.
> >
> > 1. Closed culture;
A tiring cliché i feel.
That's why Paris is the capital of World music and most French under 30
can speak some English.
BTW what is a closed culture ? And give me at least one example of this
closedness please.
> > 2. Narcissistic attitudes;
Not worse than the nationalistic chip on shoulders found in other
places.
> > 3. Paranoid about there world status;
20 years ago perhaps now it's over. Only some of our politics or
administrators from the ENA embarass the rest of us with their pretence.
> > 4. They aren't "mean" to their children, they rule them with an iron
> > hand which probably aint so bad.
Over-generalization. I guess there is the same ratio of "iron hand vs
laissez faire" parents in every corner of the globe.
> > 5. They do have delusions of superiority.
Depends in what domain. In soccer at least it's justified ;-)
> > Read Polly Plat's "French or Foe" to discover the true French culture.
> > This book is a must read for any visitor and particularly valuable for
> > any extended stay.
>
Her book seems to be representative of the snob, superficial Paris
XVIeme rather than the 99.99 other % of France.
I don't see how it is a necessary reading at all. At worst it prepares
you for a bad start with the French because you'll act unnaturally due
to this reading.
Philippe
David Gascon
>
> Chris Allbritton wrote:
>
> > In article <3AD46083...@hwa.net>, k_sumter <ks8...@hwa.net>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Read Polly Plat's "French or Foe" to discover the true French culture.
> > > This book is a must read for any visitor and particularly valuable for
> > > any extended stay.
> >
> > I agree. Just finished Platt's book in preparation for nine days in
> > Paris and then a longer stay starting in mid-May. Excellent book, and
> > i'm anxious to see how accurate her generalizations are. Especially
> > about not ever making "real" friends. That disappoints me if it's true...
>
> Platt's book is good as far as it goes, and so is her "Savoir Flair", but I would recommend Mastron & Asselin "Au
> Contraire! - Figuring Out The French" for a thorough, accurate, contemporary and entertaining analysis from an
> American perspective. This is the book which should be mandatory reading for anyone planning a trip to France
> for any reason.
>
(replay of parts of a post I made last year:)
I've read that book, and also a similar volume, "Culture Shock: USA". I
received the latter in 1995 from an outfit that was setting me up with a
homestay in
France designed to improve both my French & my hosts' English (poorly
designed,
IMO, but the program had its success: we did become friends, in fact
I've hosted
the guy over here since).
Prior to my last year's France trip, I picked up the highly-touted Polly
Platt book to bring to my friend over there (same guy), as he likes to
keep up on his English & I thought the
foreigner's impression of France might interest/amuse him. Well, I read
it
myself before leaving, & it threw me a bit of a scare! For example, her
description of the conduct expected at a dinner
party in the "typical" French home resembled nothing short of trial by
ordeal to
this devoutly informal Yank! The alleged absence of "bathroom breaks"
(trans.:
getting up to relieve oneself during the course of the marathon meal
would be
considered highly rude) was by itself enough to strike terror into the
heart
(not to mention prostate ;-) ) of this late-middle-aged semi-geezer.
The earlier part of my trip went a bit more speedily than I had planned,
so I
phoned my friend & asked if he would mind my showing up at his place a
day
earlier than expected. Sure, no problem at all, but I should be prepared
for the
fact that none of the 6 guests at the DINNER PARTY ("Omigod!") he was
having
that evening spoke any English. I was shaking in my shoes!
Well, it was nothing like the book! No precisely choreographed social
minuet,
very casual atmosphere, folks left the room whenever they felt like it.
The
friends were delightful people, & I got a wonderful opportunity to use
my shaky
French in extended conversation with people who kept complimenting me on
it (it
isn't really that fluent, but they LOVE it when you try!). And one
couple
brought along their 11-year-old kid, who enjoyed trying out his school
English
with me.
So I tend to take all these dire warnings about the fearsome French, no
matter how highly recommended, with several grains of salt.
Robert White
In response to Throb:
Is there anyone out there who can substantiate any the suppositions Throb
makes?
The basis for my opinions is limited to: 1. Two short visits to France one
in 1970 as a GI and another with my wife around 1985. 2. The viewing of a
recent (March) airing of Book TV on C-SPAN (tv show) allowing Adam Gopnik
the author of "Paris To The Moon" to comment on his life in Paris. Mr.
Gopnik was the "New Yorkers" (magazine) correspondent in Paris for five
years. A good place to find out what "Paris To The Moon" is all about is
to start with the reviews of the book posted on Amazon.com. 3. I am in the
processing of reading the aforementioned book. 4. A November 1918 article in
National Geographic Magazine titled "Our Friends, the French: An Appraisal
of the Traits and Temperament of the Citizens of Our Sister Republic" found
in my collection of National Geographic Magazines on scanned onto CD's and
creatively titled "The Complete National Geographic" Yes the article is a
little dated but it sure was fun read. Anyway whats a eighty years in a
thousand year history.
I think that responding to Throb will be a waste of time, it appears he has
already made up his mind. However, just to vent my anger, I would like to
point out just a few of what I think are some of Throbs lamer comments and
respond to them.
Throbs paragraph 5 states: "Class and accent are still strongly valued.
Regardless of how fluent. or capable you are in the language, your potential
is still determined by .. your accent and class. A slight difference in
accent can single you out for doom. . In the US, accent is not important at
all. All types of immigrants speak with a variety of accents. It is the
content that is important."
Can class and accent be that important in a country that made such a major
effort to eliminate this problem their first revolution. There is probably
not a country in the world that does not have its share of snobs and
elitists. Doesn't the US have the "Eastern Establishment" how many of our
Presidents have tried to associate themselves with this group. Haven't you
heard that Bush can trace his ancestry back to George Washington and further
back into England. Are not these associations attempt to play on the value
of being part of the Eastern political elite. If you wish to deny the
viability of the Eastern Political Elite then look into the Bohemian Club
(at least the US Branch (joke)). Throb is understating the importance
accent in the US as well. One only needs to look at the efforts many
intelligent and respected southerners make to get rid of their southern
accents to know how crippling a southern accent can be. England has its
Aristocratic Elite many distinctions based upon accent. Germany may still
have its educational elite. And so on and so on. Lets not single out
France as being the only country to have class and accent barriers. If in
fact France even has significant class and accent barriers that is. I am
not a student of France, but was not that one of the themes of the French
Revolution to get rid of class differences (at least one class). Further,
Throb is not considering the importance of the French left to Frances recent
history.
Throbs paragraph 4 states: "After WWII, the decline of France was inevitable
because of its close collaboration with Nazis.
Frances cooperation with the Nazis in WWII I am sure is deeply regretted,
however, the cooperation of both Germans and French is very complicated.
The whole Nazis thing was an abhorrent regime. To the Germans, Hitler
played off the fact that the Germans were starving (go with out food for a
couple of days to get the feeling). To the French, I think they were just
sick of war. (Note the extent to which the French embraced Marxism and the
Marxist idea of avoiding war. (I hope you can make a distinction between
Communism and Marxism)). In 1915 France had a population of 33.8 million.
Funk and Wagnall reports French causalities in WW1 to be approximately 6.1
million (men between 21 and 30). This means that almost one in five could
be counted as a causality. Seventy three percent of France's 8.4 million
military personal in WW1 wound up as causalities per Funk & Wagnall. In
the 1870's the Franco Prussian war pulverize France's youth and in the early
1800's Napoleon load a generation of Frenchmen into his cannons. By the
time of WW2 the wise men of France may have said it's better to be German
than dead. The wise men I refer to are a countries old folk. What
happened to the Jews was terrible but most, if not all, European countries
have treated the Jews poorly. To the average Frenchman and German sending
the Jews to labors was not as bad as fighting from a trench. Do you really
think that if the common Frenchman or German knew Jewish women and children
were being stripped, gassed and starved? I don't think they knew nor would
have condoned the situation if they did know. People were concern about
their family's and themselves and that was it, these were terrible times.
Throbs, I think you just want to piss everyone off when you say in paragraph
4 that the "English speaking world had to stop (ie. Nazism). Excuse me but
our Russian allies (yes allies) deserve a lot of credit they suffered over
20 million causalities. Poland suffered 1.2 million causalities. The
English speaking allies combined suffered almost 2 million causalities. I
do not want to take anything away from the English speaking allies but it
appears the Russians and Poles pretty much had the Germans beat and we just
save the Germans from the Russian gulags.
In paragraph 6 Throb says "There is a special meanness towards children
which, along with other reasons, indicates that the country needs some kind
of education and therapy in this respect. I have not finished "Paris to the
Moon" yet but, Mr. Gopnik's did mention on Book TV that one of the big
reasons he left Paris (after planning to spend the remainder of his life
their) was the French educational environment. Maybe the French do feel
under siege and therefore the need to prepare their children in "best" way
they can, like a the education of Spartan youth ("Gates of Fire" by
Pressfield). The context in which your bringing up this issue may not do a
thing for French children or any of the worlds children for that matter.
What happens if they build a better soldier (businessman) for today's
completive environment. I hear the Japanese are pretty hard on there
children as well. Do we really want a world so efficient that all our
women and children have to work their tails off. Maybe enough is enough. I
do like the way we do it here let children be children an women be mothers.
But another thought might be to ride the women and kids a little harder so
they can take care of us when we get old and write dumb e-mails.
Where do you get "Exploitation of children and sexual abuse (kiddie porn) is
widespread" In paragraph 6. From what I understand France wants strict
control of internet content. How can there be a lot of kiddie porn if they
are paying that close of attention? It seems that hard copy of this sort
of thing would be easier to control. The French may not take a Victorian
approach to sexuality but there's kind of a big gap hear don't you think.
I am under the impression that French life is family centric. Are you
implying that the French think it's OK to use children like this because no
damage is really done.
Ok enough is enough. Someone else can wrestle Throbs for a while. My anger
has passed and I am probably wasting my time anyway. Throbs, why are you
on the French so? Do you feel denied? The collective French mind is
different from an Americans. Be a little kinder. We have let the Germans
and the Japanese back in. Why to you feel the need to rub the French into
the dirt? The best thing that could be said by historians of our American
culture is it inclusiveness. Will we be able to be the first large society
to facilitate all nationalities, races and religions to live happily under
one fair government? No were not there. We have a ways to go. What a
magnificent legacy it could be, everyone getting along. Throb, what is
going to be your contribution?
Sincerely, bob...
"Throb" <Throb_...@newsranger.com> wrote in message
news:JrHA6.2267$FY5.1...@www.newsranger.com...
1) This is how many experienced travellers and writers portray Paris and
France. Is it accurate?
2). In summary, a deceptive place which is still conservative and has very
traditional values, all covered by a thick layer of pretence. Class and
accent are still very important. You may say most people in the country are
living in a world of fantasy while the real world is very different. It is
culturally sealed to outside influence, paranoid about its declining status
to the benefit of the English speaking world. It has a centralist and
narcissus character and must be told all the time its great and beautiful,
otherwise it becomes very bad-tempered and difficult. It can be very cruel
and mean and rationalise this with little conscience. It is becoming
disoriented.
3) Going into more detail, there appears to be a war between the real
culture and the imaginary culture of France. Real France is said to be very
oppressive and even dangerous which raises its head, for example, during the
Nazi collaboration with Germany in WW II. Cruel events, like the zealous
deportation of Jews to death camps, is erased or rationalised. They are
living in two separate worlds like some kind of schizophrenics. One is the
harsh world and the other is the make-believe world which most think is the
true France. They have become very paranoid about their culture and are
making frenzied efforts to live in a static world by eliminating all
external influence on its culture especially fashion, cooking, sex and
language. I am sorry France, but the whole world and indeed the whole
Universe is an exchange. Will Ye not understand? While the rest of the
world is opening up to each other, France is closing up. Vive la Difference!
4) After WWII, the decline of France was inevitable because of its close
collaboration with Nazis. This exposed the country and sapped it of its
moral, political and cultural strength. In 1956, English replaced French as
the official language of diplomacy. This was to be expected, since they
undiplomatically sided with a heinous ideology which the English speaking
world had to stop (ie. Nazism). The rise of English as an international
language was inevitable, for which the French have only themselves and their
opportunism to blame. French as a prominent language has become passe, maybe
deservedly so.
5) Class and accent are still strongly valued. Regardless of how fluent (you
could even be rare poet) or capable you are in the language, your potential
is still determined by by your accent and class. A slight difference in
accent can single you out for doom. How narrow and backward! In the US,
accent is not important at all. All types of immigrants speak with a variety
of accents. It is the content that is important.
6) There is a special meanness towards children which, along with other
reasons, indicates that the country needs some kind of education and therapy
in this respect. Exploitation of children and sexual abuse (kiddie porn) is
widespread. Perhaps the culture lends itself to this. They do not seem to
understand or respect children. The world of children is grey indeed. Some
aspects of the culture can only be called lunatic. The fashion world is a
good example. Here you have women from all over the world marching ( are you
still marching?) down catwalks who really look like robots, disconnected
enemotional and isolated zombies. Most are on drugs, promoting the "druggie
is beautiful" look. They are unofficial prostitutes as well, serving to
provide sex to hordes of male perverts in the fashionworld. French feminists
think this is just great. A numb,drugged whore is a great ideal for women.
7) These are just some of the views. Any comments or clarification on this?
devil
>
> >
> I have managed to become a respected scholar - on the period of World War
> II, incidentally - without having a perfect accent. I once gave a talk on
> the subject of the image of women in the Resistance at the leading school in
> social science here, in French, which was extremely well received. I came
> to France as an adult. I knew that at my age, especially since I am tone
> deaf, I would never be able to master the accent. So I deliberately chose
> not to agonize over this, but to move on to more crucial points like grammar
> and vocabulary. Especially vocabulary. I have done just fine.
Which happens to be very much the French thing to do :-).
So no big surprise that it would work.
k_sumter
Philippe Torres wrote:
> > >
> > > 1. Closed culture;
>
> A tiring cliché i feel.
> That's why Paris is the capital of World music and most French under 30
> can speak some English.
> BTW what is a closed culture ? And give me at least one example of this
> closedness please.
Marriage of non-French into the culture is very difficult. This is in
Platt's book, but I quote from personal knowledge.
> > > 4. They aren't "mean" to their children, they rule them with an iron
> > > hand which probably aint so bad.
>
> Over-generalization. I guess there is the same ratio of "iron hand vs
> laissez faire" parents in every corner of the globe.
Not true. Next time you're in France, observe French children on a train
or at a restaurant. Their behaviour is exemplary. The education system
is one of the most rigorous in the Western world. There are cases of
French children having lived part of their adolescence in the US,
returning to France with its rigid code of cultural behaviour and not
being able to adjust after having experienced the freedom of American
culture. In some instances committing suicide.
> > > 5. They do have delusions of superiority.
>
> Depends in what domain. In soccer at least it's justified ;-)
>
> > > Read Polly Plat's "French or Foe" to discover the true French culture.
> > > This book is a must read for any visitor and particularly valuable for
> > > any extended stay.
> >
>
> Her book seems to be representative of the snob, superficial Paris
> XVIeme rather than the 99.99 other % of France.
>
> I don't see how it is a necessary reading at all. At worst it prepares
> you for a bad start with the French because you'll act unnaturally due
> to this reading.
Your mileage may vary, I found the book supplemented the enjoyment of my
subsequent trips to France. I didn't look at it as a book of
condemnation, just simply good information on the culture. The French
aren't "bad," just different, we probably are examined similarly by
them.
Elisabeth Bouynot
> There are cases of
> French children having lived part of their adolescence in the US,
> returning to France with its rigid code of cultural behaviour and not
> being able to adjust after having experienced the freedom of American
> culture. In some instances committing suicide.
IMO, pure BS. Actually, I was an exchange student in the US, and I felt
suicidally depressed (looking back, I'd say it was the lack of
intellectual challenge) after 6 months there, not when coming back. And
I was not the only one. If you call a "rigid code of cultural
behaviour" the fact that you can't drive your own car at 16 and have to
be home for diner, too bad.
Elisabeth
trankscuzzball
reckless.
elis...@gabuzomeu.net (Elisabeth Bouynot) wrote in
<MPG.153f91413...@news.dial.oleane.com>:
Donna Evleth
--
----------
Dans l'article <3AD4A1DD...@bigfoot.com>, David Gascon
<gpad...@bigfoot.com> a écrit :
My French friends and I have all had a barrel of laughs over THE DINNER
PARTY! Needless to say, none of us have ever been to the event described.
Donna Evleth
Philippe Torres
>
> Philippe Torres wrote:
>
> > > >
> > > > 1. Closed culture;
> >
> > A tiring cliché i feel.
> > That's why Paris is the capital of World music and most French under 30
> > can speak some English.
> > BTW what is a closed culture ? And give me at least one example of this
> > closedness please.
>
> Marriage of non-French into the culture is very difficult. This is in
> Platt's book, but I quote from personal knowledge.
>
I take your point about our problems with immigration nowadays but who
hasn't ?
OTOH, France has the highest ratio of mixed marriage in Europe (cf Times
magazine "A French renaissance" released in 2000. Don't remember the
month sorry). Don't paint the picture black when it's grey as it is in
most of European countries where immigration is important.
>
> > > > 4. They aren't "mean" to their children, they rule them with an iron
> > > > hand which probably aint so bad.
> >
> > Over-generalization. I guess there is the same ratio of "iron hand vs
> > laissez faire" parents in every corner of the globe.
>
> Not true. Next time you're in France, observe French children on a train
> or at a restaurant. Their behaviour is exemplary. The education system
> is one of the most rigorous in the Western world. There are cases of
> French children having lived part of their adolescence in the US,
> returning to France with its rigid code of cultural behaviour and not
> being able to adjust after having experienced the freedom of American
> culture. In some instances committing suicide.
>
I'm French and lives in France so i'm well placed to comment upon French
children behaviour. I won't call them exemplary, far from it, and i
don't find France is hell on earth for the children (committing suicide
for what?? having free education and holidays?) even if school hours per
day are too long i feel.
But it's true that opportunities are harder to get in France than in the
USA where perhaps the young are less trusted when they begin to work.
That's part of the culture and i never pretended that life was easier
here.
And just what is a "rigid code of cultural behaviour" ? Sounds more hot
air than substance to me.
> >
> > Her book seems to be representative of the snob, superficial Paris
> > XVIeme rather than the 99.99 other % of France.
> >
> > I don't see how it is a necessary reading at all. At worst it prepares
> > you for a bad start with the French because you'll act unnaturally due
> > to this reading.
>
> Your mileage may vary, I found the book supplemented the enjoyment of my
> subsequent trips to France. I didn't look at it as a book of
> condemnation, just simply good information on the culture.
The problem is that book isn't "good information about the culture". It
just flatters the usual clichés people have about the French.
It comforts people's false beliefs about us when considering social
code, dressing, dinner, smoking and so on. Ms Polly Platt is convinced
to know the French inside out when in fact most foreign-born people
living in France in this ng know far more than her.
> The French
> aren't "bad," just different, we probably are examined similarly by
> them.
Yes but i suspect we know more about you than you know about us due to
the great interest and penetration of the American culture and way of
life in the French society today. We are different but what constitutes
this difference is very poorly reflected by this book.
Philippe
k_sumter
How old were you? How long were you exposed to the American culture?
This particular incident happened to a girl who spent three years of her
early teens going to an American public school. She then returned to a
French school system (with its incredible pressure on performance) and
the restrictive cultural rules.
Be home for dinner? You have just described one of the causative factors
in the demise of American culture. Our children seem to do whatever they
want, whenever they want.
Philippe Torres
>
> Elisabeth Bouynot wrote:
> >
> > In article <3AD552D2...@hwa.net>, ks8...@hwa.net says...
> > > There are cases of
> > > French children having lived part of their adolescence in the US,
> > > returning to France with its rigid code of cultural behaviour and not
> > > being able to adjust after having experienced the freedom of American
> > > culture. In some instances committing suicide.
> >
> > IMO, pure BS. Actually, I was an exchange student in the US, and I felt
> > suicidally depressed (looking back, I'd say it was the lack of
> > intellectual challenge) after 6 months there, not when coming back. And
> > I was not the only one. If you call a "rigid code of cultural
> > behaviour" the fact that you can't drive your own car at 16 and have to
> > be home for diner, too bad.
>
> How old were you? How long were you exposed to the American culture?
> This particular incident happened to a girl who spent three years of her
> early teens going to an American public school. She then returned to a
> French school system (with its incredible pressure on performance) and
> the restrictive cultural rules.
>
So one case and you draw conclusions about the whole picture ! Perhaps
the suicide was caused by other factors but don't let that in the way of
your belief.
> Be home for dinner? You have just described one of the causative factors
> in the demise of American culture. Our children seem to do whatever they
> want, whenever they want.
The fact that family still tries to gather for dinner despite
playstation, tv and so on is hardly a French trait imo.
Philippe
k_sumter
Philippe Torres wrote:
>
> k_sumter wrote:
> >
> > Elisabeth Bouynot wrote:
> > >
> > > In article <3AD552D2...@hwa.net>, ks8...@hwa.net says...
> > > > There are cases of
> > > > French children having lived part of their adolescence in the US,
> > > > returning to France with its rigid code of cultural behaviour and not
> > > > being able to adjust after having experienced the freedom of American
> > > > culture. In some instances committing suicide.
> > >
> > > IMO, pure BS. Actually, I was an exchange student in the US, and I felt
> > > suicidally depressed (looking back, I'd say it was the lack of
> > > intellectual challenge) after 6 months there, not when coming back. And
> > > I was not the only one. If you call a "rigid code of cultural
> > > behaviour" the fact that you can't drive your own car at 16 and have to
> > > be home for diner, too bad.
> >
> > How old were you? How long were you exposed to the American culture?
> > This particular incident happened to a girl who spent three years of her
> > early teens going to an American public school. She then returned to a
> > French school system (with its incredible pressure on performance) and
> > the restrictive cultural rules.
> >
>
> So one case and you draw conclusions about the whole picture ! Perhaps
> the suicide was caused by other factors but don't let that in the way of
> your belief.
This is merely one case Ms. Platt included in her book. The culture
shock for this situation is a problem for adolescence exposed at this
age and for a length of time.
> > Be home for dinner? You have just described one of the causative factors
> > in the demise of American culture. Our children seem to do whatever they
> > want, whenever they want.
>
> The fact that family still tries to gather for dinner despite
> playstation, tv and so on is hardly a French trait imo.
I think the poster indicate that in the France, there is no "trying"
involved.
>
> Philippe
Elisabeth Bouynot
>
>
> Elisabeth Bouynot wrote:
> >
> > In article <3AD552D2...@hwa.net>, ks8...@hwa.net says...
> > > There are cases of
> > > French children having lived part of their adolescence in the US,
> > > returning to France with its rigid code of cultural behaviour and not
> > > being able to adjust after having experienced the freedom of American
> > > culture. In some instances committing suicide.
> >
> > IMO, pure BS. Actually, I was an exchange student in the US, and I felt
> > suicidally depressed (looking back, I'd say it was the lack of
> > intellectual challenge) after 6 months there, not when coming back. And
> > I was not the only one. If you call a "rigid code of cultural
> > behaviour" the fact that you can't drive your own car at 16 and have to
> > be home for diner, too bad.
>
> How old were you?
> How long were you exposed to the American culture?
9 months, 3 of which I don't want to remember. The Swedish girl who was
there the year before me had the same problem.
> This particular incident happened to a girl who spent three years of her
> early teens going to an American public school.
So this is one instance, and not "some instances". I have two examples
to the opposite: American girls who chose to study in France.
> She then returned to a
> French school system (with its incredible pressure on performance) and
> the restrictive cultural rules.
You mean, the teachers actually expected her to _work_? Gee. There was
only one course in my US high school that stretched my mind a bit
(chemistry), and the teacher told me he was under pressure (from the
school board) to "ease up" his courses and grades, so the poor darlin's
wouldn't have such a hard time.
As for the restrictive cultural rules, what do you mean? Don't skip
school? I never felt very much "restricted" growing up in France.
> Be home for dinner? You have just described one of the causative factors
> in the demise of American culture. Our children seem to do whatever they
> want, whenever they want.
So that "rigid code of cultural behaviour" isn't so bad, is it?
Elisabeth
Elisabeth Bouynot
> > So one case and you draw conclusions about the whole picture ! Perhaps
> > the suicide was caused by other factors but don't let that in the way of
> > your belief.
>
> This is merely one case Ms. Platt included in her book. The culture
> shock for this situation is a problem for adolescence exposed at this
> age and for a length of time.
Oh. So this is something you read in a book, not someone you knew...
From what I read about this book, I wouldn't say it's a good reference.
Elisabeth
jcoulter
valid (i.e. American) viewpoint from which to argue with k_sumter whereas my
being American makes it impossible for me to have an accurate view of France
from which to argue as well. Damned if we do and damned if we don't. Tell
you what, I will continue to like France and live in the US and you can have
it both ways ;-)
I had hoped that your arguments would have an effect but since Robert
Buxbaum's having French in laws didn't help why would I have expected a
reasonable French opinion to count.
How do you say troll in French? The verb is rouler or tourner, but do you
have an equivalent noun?
"Elisabeth Bouynot" <elis...@gabuzomeu.net> wrote in message
news:MPG.153ffb6f5...@news.dial.oleane.com...
Elisabeth Bouynot
225st...@mediaone.SPAMLESSnet says...
> Elisabeth,, It is too bad that your being French precludes you from having a
> valid (i.e. American) viewpoint from which to argue with k_sumter whereas my
> being American makes it impossible for me to have an accurate view of France
> from which to argue as well.
Actually, I know it's useless to argue. But it's fun...
> Damned if we do and damned if we don't. Tell
> you what, I will continue to like France and live in the US and you can have
> it both ways ;-)
My opinion exactly.
> I had hoped that your arguments would have an effect but since Robert
> Buxbaum's having French in laws didn't help why would I have expected a
> reasonable French opinion to count.
Nah, a reasonable answer will never convince a troll. Might shut them
up, though.
> How do you say troll in French? The verb is rouler or tourner, but do you
> have an equivalent noun?
We call them "trolls" too, which only brings to mind the smelly, hairy
mythological monster. :-)
Elisabeth
k_sumter
Elisabeth Bouynot wrote:
>
> In article <3AD5CE94...@hwa.net>, ks8...@hwa.net says...
> >
> >
> > Elisabeth Bouynot wrote:
> > >
> > > In article <3AD552D2...@hwa.net>, ks8...@hwa.net says...
> > > > There are cases of
> > > > French children having lived part of their adolescence in the US,
> > > > returning to France with its rigid code of cultural behaviour and not
> > > > being able to adjust after having experienced the freedom of American
> > > > culture. In some instances committing suicide.
> > >
> > > IMO, pure BS. Actually, I was an exchange student in the US, and I felt
> > > suicidally depressed (looking back, I'd say it was the lack of
> > > intellectual challenge) after 6 months there, not when coming back. And
> > > I was not the only one. If you call a "rigid code of cultural
> > > behaviour" the fact that you can't drive your own car at 16 and have to
> > > be home for diner, too bad.
> >
> > How old were you?
> 16.
> > How long were you exposed to the American culture?
> 9 months, 3 of which I don't want to remember. The Swedish girl who was
> there the year before me had the same problem.
I would submit that 9 months at 16 is a far cry from someone spending
three years during the ages of 12-15. You were focused on 9 months in a
foreign country at 16, presumably without your parents. The girl in this
instance learned to live the American culture with its attendant
openness, freedom of expression, drugs, etc. Watch any of the many
American "high school" movies and see if you can find even the slightest
resemblance to the French school system.
> > This particular incident happened to a girl who spent three years of her
> > early teens going to an American public school.
> So this is one instance, and not "some instances". I have two examples
> to the opposite: American girls who chose to study in France.
It is more than one instance, it is simply the one from Platt's book and
is dramatically different as to both your age and time spent in the US.
>
> > She then returned to a
> > French school system (with its incredible pressure on performance) and
> > the restrictive cultural rules.
> You mean, the teachers actually expected her to _work_? Gee. There was
> only one course in my US high school that stretched my mind a bit
> (chemistry), and the teacher told me he was under pressure (from the
> school board) to "ease up" his courses and grades, so the poor darlin's
> wouldn't have such a hard time.
Thank you. Precisely my point.
> As for the restrictive cultural rules, what do you mean? Don't skip
> school? I never felt very much "restricted" growing up in France.
I'm sure you didn't, for you it was the norm.
> > Be home for dinner? You have just described one of the causative factors
> > in the demise of American culture. Our children seem to do whatever they
> > want, whenever they want.
> So that "rigid code of cultural behaviour" isn't so bad, is it?
Never said or even intimated it was and in many ways I think it is an
enviable system. Sorry to quote the now despised Platt book, but in
talking about the strict behavioral mores that are inherent in raising
children in the French culture it seems Americans going there to live
are shocked by it. They tend to go into this psycho babble how this is
so bad for the (French) children and it will do them untold harm,
they'll be mal-adjusted, etc. And it just ain't so, is it? It works
quite well in my opinion.
k_sumter
Platt's book committed suicide _after_ she returned to France.
Dr. George O. Bizzigotti
>Watch any of the many
>American "high school" movies and see if you can find even the slightest
>resemblance to the French school system.
That's odd; I've watched (admittedly only a few of the many) American
"high school" movies and I could not find even the slightest
resemblance to the American school system of which I am a product. I
suppose that's the problem with getting cultural truth from Hollywood.
(Either that, or after 25 years, the American HS is as foreign to me
as it is to the French, which also suggests something about enduring
cultural stereotypes.)
Regards,
George
**********************************************************************
Dr. George O. Bizzigotti Telephone: (703) 610-2115
Mitretek Systems, Inc., MS Z313 Fax: (703) 610-1558
7525 Colshire Drive E-Mail: gbiz...@mitretek.org
McLean, VA 22102-7400
**********************************************************************
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Elisabeth Bouynot
gbiz...@mitretek.org says...
> On Fri, 13 Apr 2001 03:39:34 GMT, k_sumter <ks8...@hwa.net> wrote:
>
> >Watch any of the many
> >American "high school" movies and see if you can find even the slightest
> >resemblance to the French school system.
Lemme see. Kids go to school. Teachers teach. Kids are supposed to learn
what teachers teach. Sometimes kids don't learn and the teachers flunk
them.
Four resemblances, and I didn't have to look very far.
> That's odd; I've watched (admittedly only a few of the many) American
> "high school" movies and I could not find even the slightest
> resemblance to the American school system of which I am a product.
I'm relieved, I'm not the only one.
Elisabeth
k_sumter
accurate, however;
1. What year did you graduate from high school?
2. Was it a real "high school" or something like Exeter?
3. If you are the same Dr. Bizzigotti, the physicist, I doubt the
writers of this genre of movies had a student, such as yourself, in mind
as one of the characters portrayed.
Robert Buxbaum
>Doctor, I suppose my Hollywood reference point is perhaps not quite
>accurate, however;
>
>1. What year did you graduate from high school?
>
>2. Was it a real "high school" or something like Exeter?
>
>3. If you are the same Dr. Bizzigotti, the physicist, I doubt the
>writers of this genre of movies had a student, such as yourself, in mind
>as one of the characters portrayed.
And from this we can conclude Dr. Bizzigotti doesn't count or that the
Hollywood stereotype is less than complete.
--
<www.worldtable.com> Food/Wine/Travel
-
new offer for car rental and leasing in Europe
posted 21 June 2000
k_sumter
much alike. So the United States must share these items, among others,
with their French counterpart:
1. Education is the largest single sector in the national budget;
2. You can get in the best colleges on nothing more than an exam score;
4. High school level students have only three choices of study
Literature, Economics, or Science;
5. The educational program is centralized with a nationwide curriculum;
6. A national test must be taken for entry into high school.
k_sumter
Robert Buxbaum wrote:
>
> In article <3AD71AC0...@hwa.net>, k_sumter <ks8...@hwa.net> wrote:
>
> >Doctor, I suppose my Hollywood reference point is perhaps not quite
> >accurate, however;
> >
> >1. What year did you graduate from high school?
> >
> >2. Was it a real "high school" or something like Exeter?
> >
> >3. If you are the same Dr. Bizzigotti, the physicist, I doubt the
> >writers of this genre of movies had a student, such as yourself, in mind
> >as one of the characters portrayed.
>
> And from this we can conclude Dr. Bizzigotti doesn't count or that the
> Hollywood stereotype is less than complete.
The good Doctor's comparison of the American high school, as portrayed
by the particular movie genre mentioned, to his own pre-college
education would have to be suspect if he went to Exeter, don't you
think?
Robert Buxbaum
Absolutely if only because I've yet to know of a high school that was
actually much like what's show in the genre mentioned. OTOH, I'll bet
Exeter had not been an incubator of physicists, but I'm not as familiar with
the doctor's c.v. as you may be.
Paul E Rosete
news:hnsddt4154vsl8vk2...@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 13 Apr 2001 03:39:34 GMT, k_sumter <ks8...@hwa.net> wrote:
>
> That's odd; I've watched (admittedly only a few of the many) American
> "high school" movies and I could not find even the slightest
> resemblance to the American school system of which I am a product. I
> suppose that's the problem with getting cultural truth from Hollywood.
> (Either that, or after 25 years, the American HS is as foreign to me
> as it is to the French, which also suggests something about enduring
> cultural stereotypes.)
>
(middle and high school) and *they* always laugh at how exaggerated,
unrealistic, ridiculous, etc., Hollywood's portrayal of the current American
high school "scene" tends to be. So, you're not alone in holding the
opinion that the typical American public school environment is greatly
exaggerated and actually distorted by filmmakers, just to sell their
product.
What always amazes me even more is the number of people who develop their
sense of reality by watching TV or movies, especially when it deals with
other cultures.
k_sumter
I'm sure that's where I got my insanely bizarre ideas about French
culture and hell, on top of that, I only gots one little measly degree.
Elisabeth Bouynot
> I'm sure that's where I got my insanely bizarre ideas about French
> culture and hell, on top of that, I only gots one little measly degree.
Oh Goddess. Don't tell me you watched "Hélčne et les garçons"?
Elisabeth
Elisabeth Bouynot
> OK, I stand corrected, the French and American school systems are pretty
> much alike. So the United States must share these items, among others,
> with their French counterpart:
You are, aren't you? Really, none of the things you mention here appear
in movies, US or French. I've been trying to remember teenage moovies I
saw, from Breakfast Club to American Beauty, can't remember a mention of
the national budget.
> 1. Education is the largest single sector in the national budget;
And that shows in the movies?
> 2. You can get in the best colleges on nothing more than an exam score;
False. You can get into any French college, worse or best, with the
baccalauréat. The grades/scores at the exam don't count, you just need
to pass. The college can't choose its applicants.
You also forgot to mention that most colleges are close to free. Vive la
différence. But that isn't high school.
Or maybe you meant the SAT scores to get into the US colleges? Getting
into the best colleges on nothing more than an exam score?
> 4. High school level students have only three choices of study
> Literature, Economics, or Science;
At that stage, they assume that you have basketweaving and home-ec
mastered. I haven't followed the evolutions lately, but back in my time,
when you chose litterature, you had to keep studying math, biology,
physics and chemistry, plus history, geography and philosophy, plus at
least 2 languages. Same thing if you chose science or
economy/management: always a full curriculum. Back then, you could also
choose sports or art. The US system as I met it was pretty similar: each
year, you had to take a core set of required courses, plus some
electives.
In the French system, this doesn't block your options very much. True,
if you want to study math, science or medicine in college, you had
better take the "science" option, or you'll flunk. Otherwise, your
college choices are only limited by the number of available "seats".
> 5. The educational program is centralized with a nationwide curriculum;
And that shows in the movies?
> 6. A national test must be taken for entry into high school.
And that shows in the movies? I don't know how things work nowadays, but
about 15 years ago, you got into high scool on account of your grades,
not by an exam. I think BEPC is now a minimum requirement, to check your
three R's.
Elisabeth
k_sumter
Elisabeth Bouynot wrote:
I'm taking one of your points an just show how full of crap you are:
> > 2. You can get in the best colleges on nothing more than an exam score;
> False. You can get into any French college, worse or best, with the
> baccalauréat. The grades/scores at the exam don't count, you just need
> to pass. The college can't choose its applicants.
So your saying that passing the bac _won't_ allow you to get in the best
colleges?
Don't bother replying, flame bait.
NKA
> I'm sure that's where I got my insanely bizarre ideas about French
> culture and hell, on top of that, I only gots one little measly degree.
Did you learn that all people do not think alike and are entitled to
their opinions and perceptions based on their experiences? Where did
you get your one measly degree that tought you to be so tolerant and
knowledgeable?
k_sumter
Frank
> OK, I stand corrected, the French and American school systems are pretty
> much alike. So the United States must share these items, among others,
> with their French counterpart:
>
> 1. Education is the largest single sector in the national budget;
Hi,
in many (possibly most) states in the union it is.
education in the U.S. is a State function like it is in the E.U.
> 2. You can get in the best colleges on nothing more than an exam score;
yes, you can in fact get into say...Harvard or Yale or U.C. Berkeley or M.I.T.
with a good exam score... you'll have what's called a "full ride scholarship".
> 4. High school level students have only three choices of study
> Literature, Economics, or Science;
actually in the U.S. -public- school system since there is a program in place to
NOT fail minorities there is the "nothing" curriculum available and chosen by
many.
> 5. The educational program is centralized with a nationwide curriculum;
in the U.S. like in the E.U. the curriculum is decided by the State usually.
> 6. A national test must be taken for entry into high school.
like in the E.U. in the U.S. this varies from state to state.
you may not be familiar with the terminology.
France is a State.
Texas is a State. (and of similar size too).
both Texas and France are both part of larger unions that exert some governmental
powers on them.
k_sumter
A test to get into a US high school? Frank, the only "state" you should
be worrying about is your state of mind and after reading your post,
it's not looking to good.
k_sumter
My goodness, you sound just like Tauger and Buxbaum, the RTE tag team.
Frank
> be worrying about is your state of mind and after reading your post,
> it's not looking to good.
Hi,
yes, in many States there are many High Schools that test students before admittance
and only those students with high enough scores are admitted.
right here Memphis University School tests students before admittance. it is a very
selective school.
in the U.S. the State governments are required to provide some sort of schooling up
through at least 18 years of age. that is not to say that all students can get into all
schools regardless of ability. only that there is a school of some sort for all
students. there are even prison schools for criminal students.
has the E.U. started requiring similar things of it's many States?
you don't seem to understand that the European Union and the United States are rough
equivalents, and a State like France or Greece the equivalent of Texas or New Mexico.
States that are part of the larger union with their own laws.
k_sumter
Sure, Frank, now take it easy, relax... everything's going to be
alright. The hospital staff is going to chip in and buy you a ticket to
Fran..., er, I mean New Mexico, now take a couple of deep breaths....
devil
I don't think that's what she said. But it is actually true. You
certainly can't get into France's top engineering schools, or places
such as Ecole Normale, just by passing the bac.
k_sumter
Right, to gain entrance to a grand ecole, a meritorious process is
unfertaken, but don't tell Mademoiselle Bouynot, she's from France, you
know.
Chris Hedley
Frank <ne...@hackamore.com> writes:
> France is a State.
No it isn't. It's an independant country; the fact that it's part of a
larger political conglomerate doesn't really diminish that.
> Texas is a State. (and of similar size too).
Really. What's the population of Texas again?
Chris.
Elisabeth Bouynot
>
>
> devil wrote:
> >
> > k_sumter wrote:
> > >
> > > Elisabeth Bouynot wrote:
> > >
> > > I'm taking one of your points an just show how full of crap you are:
No, that's you. You should eat more fibers, you know?
> > > > > 2. You can get in the best colleges on nothing more than an exam score;
> > >
> > > > False. You can get into any French college, worse or best, with the
> > > > baccalauréat. The grades/scores at the exam don't count, you just need
> > > > to pass. The college can't choose its applicants.
> > >
> > > So your saying that passing the bac _won't_ allow you to get in the best
> > > colleges?
It allows you to get in, but certainly doesn't guarantee that you _will_
get in. The college you get into really depends on where you live, what
you want to study, and on how early you applied on the (gasp) national
college registration system.
> > I don't think that's what she said. But it is actually true. You
> > certainly can't get into France's top engineering schools, or places
> > such as Ecole Normale, just by passing the bac.
Normale supérieure, you mean. The "écoles normales" were formation
centers for primary school teachers, and have now been replaced by
IUFMs.
Ecole Normale Supérieure or other Ecoles supérieures are similar to
graduate schools. You can't get in right after baccalauréat, you have to
go through years of college or college-like cramming classes - classes
préparatoires - similar to US pre-med.
> Right, to gain entrance to a grand ecole, a meritorious process is
> unfertaken, but don't tell Mademoiselle Bouynot, she's from France, you
> know.
Yes, and worse, I've gone to a "classe prépa" there, I've been to
college there, and I've been to an "Ecole supérieure" there. So I really
don't know a thing.
Elisabeth
Elisabeth Bouynot
> God, please stick to your cooking.
Ladies and gentlemen, it's now clear that k_sumter is a guy.
Elisabeth
k_sumter
Yeah, but M. Tauger has THREE degrees, so you ain't so hot. This means
(according to the rte expertise scale) that Tauger knows more about
France then you do. Better stick to cooking.
Greg Shenaut
Not to claim that Texas = France, I think that a valid analogy can
be made that EU : France :: USA : Virginia, especially if you go
back to the pre-federal days of the USA when the connection between
the states and the central government was looser (Texas doesn't
work as well as Virginia in this analogy because Texas entered the
union only after the Federalism was adopted).
One of the reasons for some of the more bone-headed national actions
of the USA is exactly that it is a (strongly) united collection of
50 *sovereign states*: for example, the state governments claim
sovereignty over education of their own people, have their own laws
and courts; the 2nd amendment of the US constitution even guarantees
the right of the states to form their own military force (militias).
Greg Shenaut
Robert Buxbaum
Bouynot <elis...@gabuzomeu.net> wrote:
> I've gone to a "classe prépa" there, I've been to
>college there, and I've been to an "Ecole supérieure" there. So I really
>don't know a thing.
>
>Elisabeth
Clearly you are too informed for your opinion to count. One apparently
needs a limited view as an outsider to make a clear and unbiased judgement.
Reading a book or two on the subject is best. Time actually spent in France
in contact with the French people will lead one to subconscious prejudice.
Ignorance, as they say, is bliss.
And without sarcasm, I'm sorry your student visit and experience was
disappointing. My personal opinion is that it's difficult to be dropped
into a foreign society as a student. My suspicion is that both France and
the U.S. have places for all sorts of students, but that the natives are the
ones best suited to finding the proper place for their children or for the
children to have adjusted slowly to their place. In many ways I prefer the
openess of the American education system, but then that's the system I know
best. Both systems have their strengths and faults. The academic standards
may be higher in France, but the American students may more often be
encouraged to think creatively. As to which is more intellectual, it may
depend on your definition of intellectual. While Americans may tend to
spout a wole lot of nonesense at times, the French are apt to repeat exactly
what they have been taught. I'd separate intellectual ability from academic
ability. On the whole the American system is less standardized. Remember
the U.S. is a much larger country with a more diverse population. My
daughter went to grade and high school in NYC and college in New England. I
suspect she would have been as out of place in the American midwest as in
France had she been abrutly moved in midterm. I'll admit it never occurred
to her, or to us, to have her spend the summer with a family in the midwest,
given the chance to do it in France.
Robert Buxbaum
>Yeah, but M. Tauger has THREE degrees, so you ain't so hot. This means
>(according to the rte expertise scale) that Tauger knows more about
>France then you do. Better stick to cooking.
Yeah, yeah, but does he have tenure. ;-)
devil
>
> Ecole Normale Supérieure or other Ecoles supérieures are similar to
> graduate schools. You can't get in right after baccalauréat, you have to
> go through years of college or college-like cramming classes - classes
> préparatoires - similar to US pre-med.
Here I must disagree or at least qualify the statement that the grandes
ecoles are "similar to graduate schools." These are undergrad programs,
not graduate, and even within these schools, they are typically
recognized as equivalent to undergrad programs (for instance, when
talking exchanges etc., these things are pretty clear). That they
require a couple of years of preparation does not make much of a
difference. Especially since the number of years in the grandes ecoles
is less also. (Mind you, if we want to get into detail, on the whole
these programs are longer.)
CG Luxford
On 14 Apr 2001, Chris Hedley wrote:
> Frank <ne...@hackamore.com> writes:
> > France is a State.
>
> No it isn't. It's an independant country;
How does that prevent it from being a state?
Chris,
Chris Hedley
I can infer too many meanings into that question so I shan't answer it. I
think I'll pout instead.
Chris.
k_sumter
Clearly, Elisabeth, you are too informed for your opinion to count. One
apparently needs a limited view as an outsider to make a clear and
unbiased judgement. Reading a book or two on the subject is best. Time
actually spent in France in contact with the French people will lead one
to subconscious prejudice. I'm afraid, being a French native as you are,
makes you totally out of touch with reality.
k_sumter
Forget the "high school movies." This is what I think of American
brat-ass children versus well-mannered European children. Obviously, the
only way to acheive this is with an iron hand and maybe the French as
other Europeans, do beat their children, as mentioned in the original
post. No, I did not get this from a book, by Polly Platt or anyone else.
Scene: La Museo del al Reina Sofia, Madrid, Spain.
This museum houses an impressive collection of modern and post-modern
art, including tons of Picasso and a very nice collection of Dali. In
looking at the latter, an encounter occurred with a herd of teenagers.
(use of the collective intentional).
Unlike similar groups seen at the museum, this one was noisy and unruly.
Drawing closer it could be understood why -- these kids were, of course,
American. At one point, the view of a painting was blocked by a clot of
these brats who, with their backs to the art, were blithely discussing
comparative hair conditioners. They chatted away (at the top of their
lungs), oblivious to all the people who were backed up behind them,
waiting to view the art. Most sane people would have come within seconds
of delivering a lecture to these rudeteens about their being an
embarrassment to the United States, but sorry, it didn't happen. One
should tend to be much less aggressive when visiting other countries.
It is truly amazing how, in Europe, each time a noisy, selfish,
uncontrolled pack of trailer-trash-in-training is spotted, they turn out
to be American. This is in sharp contrast to native teenagers seen
strolling the Plaza de Mayor between 10 pm and 1 am (where there are
many tapas, or appetizer, bars), talking with their friends, holding
hands with their girl- and boy-friends; being entirely polite and
respectful as they enjoyed their late night out.
k_sumter
Robert Buxbaum wrote:
>
> In article <3AD84369...@hwa.net>, k_sumter <ks8...@hwa.net> wrote:
>
> >Yeah, but M. Tauger has THREE degrees, so you ain't so hot. This means
> >(according to the rte expertise scale) that Tauger knows more about
> >France then you do. Better stick to cooking.
>
> Yeah, yeah, but does he have tenure. ;-)
Now, there's a scary thought.
Robert Buxbaum
By decree of king Louis. "L'etat, c'est moi."
Robert Buxbaum
>Forget the "high school movies."
Uh, you broght them up. Hope you have a better start now.
Okay, American teenagers thing they should go to museums but haven't figured
out why, or by now have seem so many they are too comfortable there.
European teenagers don't go to museums. What did you mean to say.
My favorite American kid art at exhibition story goes this way. Three year
kid, runs across gallery towards large painting at breakneck speed
unihibited by parents. Gallery owner almost breaks neck trying to get out
from behind dest to protect painting but can't match kid's speed. Kid stops
on a dime about foot and a half from art, puts hands in back pockets of
Oshkosh overalls and leans forward to better examine the work. Dealer does
a cool about face hoping not to be noticed. What's my point? I don't know,
but we each seem to find what we want to see.
k_sumter
Robert Buxbaum wrote:
>
> In article <3AD896D8...@hwa.net>, k_sumter <ks8...@hwa.net> wrote:
>
> >Forget the "high school movies."
>
> Uh, you broght them up. Hope you have a better start now.
That analogy was lost on rte and indeed may have been misguided. I
submit, however, that the premise was attacked unsoundly and
illogically. BFD, here, I have given a scenario that is reality.
American children are misbehaving brats, Euro-children rein supreme.
But it's just a story, good copy as the printmedia like to say and has
nothing to do with the subject matter, but does fit in with, imo, your
propensity to be highly argumentative.
Paul Tauger
though not one in citation or copyright law.
"k_sumter" <ks8...@hwa.net> wrote in message
news:3AD896D8...@hwa.net...
CajunŠ
Cajun©
"Donna Evleth" <dev...@noos.fr> wrote in message
news:9b4ad2$1qa1$1...@news6.isdnet.net...
>
> --
>
>
> ----------
> Dans l'article <3AD4A1DD...@bigfoot.com>, David Gascon
> <gpad...@bigfoot.com> a écrit :
>
>
> > Peter J Lusby wrote:
> >>
> >> Chris Allbritton wrote:
> >>
> >> > In article <3AD46083...@hwa.net>, k_sumter <ks8...@hwa.net>
> >> > wrote:
> >> >
> >> > > Read Polly Plat's "French or Foe" to discover the true French
culture.
> >> > > This book is a must read for any visitor and particularly valuable
for
> >> > > any extended stay.
> >> >
> >> > I agree. Just finished Platt's book in preparation for nine days in
> >> > Paris and then a longer stay starting in mid-May. Excellent book, and
> >> > i'm anxious to see how accurate her generalizations are. Especially
> >> > about not ever making "real" friends. That disappoints me if it's
true...
> >>
> >> Platt's book is good as far as it goes, and so is her "Savoir Flair",
but
> > I would recommend Mastron & Asselin "Au
> >> Contraire! - Figuring Out The French" for a thorough, accurate,
> > contemporary and entertaining analysis from an
> >> American perspective. This is the book which should be mandatory
reading
> > for anyone planning a trip to France
> >> for any reason.
> >>
> >
> > (replay of parts of a post I made last year:)
> >
> > I've read that book, and also a similar volume, "Culture Shock: USA". I
> > received the latter in 1995 from an outfit that was setting me up with a
> > homestay in
> > France designed to improve both my French & my hosts' English (poorly
> > designed,
> > IMO, but the program had its success: we did become friends, in fact
> > I've hosted
> > the guy over here since).
> >
> > Prior to my last year's France trip, I picked up the highly-touted Polly
> > Platt book to bring to my friend over there (same guy), as he likes to
> > keep up on his English & I thought the
> > foreigner's impression of France might interest/amuse him. Well, I read
> > it
> > myself before leaving, & it threw me a bit of a scare! For example, her
> > description of the conduct expected at a dinner
> > party in the "typical" French home resembled nothing short of trial by
> > ordeal to
> > this devoutly informal Yank! The alleged absence of "bathroom breaks"
> > (trans.:
> > getting up to relieve oneself during the course of the marathon meal
> > would be
> > considered highly rude) was by itself enough to strike terror into the
> > heart
> > (not to mention prostate ;-) ) of this late-middle-aged semi-geezer.
> >
> > The earlier part of my trip went a bit more speedily than I had planned,
> > so I
> > phoned my friend & asked if he would mind my showing up at his place a
> > day
> > earlier than expected. Sure, no problem at all, but I should be prepared
> > for the
> > fact that none of the 6 guests at the DINNER PARTY ("Omigod!") he was
> > having
> > that evening spoke any English. I was shaking in my shoes!
> >
> > Well, it was nothing like the book! No precisely choreographed social
> > minuet,
> > very casual atmosphere, folks left the room whenever they felt like it.
> > The
> > friends were delightful people, & I got a wonderful opportunity to use
> > my shaky
> > French in extended conversation with people who kept complimenting me on
> > it (it
> > isn't really that fluent, but they LOVE it when you try!). And one
> > couple
> > brought along their 11-year-old kid, who enjoyed trying out his school
> > English
> > with me.
> >
> > So I tend to take all these dire warnings about the fearsome French, no
> > matter how highly recommended, with several grains of salt.
>
> My French friends and I have all had a barrel of laughs over THE DINNER
> PARTY! Needless to say, none of us have ever been to the event described.
>
> Donna Evleth
k_sumter
Paul Tauger wrote:
>
> Well, well, apparently your one degree included a class in google.com,
> though not one in citation or copyright law.
1. Give the misquoted cite;
2. What was your claimed third graduate degree in;
3. You should be flattered;
4. Sue me.
to...@igou.com
>
>
>Robert Buxbaum wrote:
>>
>> In article <3AD896D8...@hwa.net>, k_sumter <ks8...@hwa.net> wrote:
>>
>> >Forget the "high school movies."
>>
>> Uh, you broght them up. Hope you have a better start now.
>
>That analogy was lost on rte and indeed may have been misguided. I
>submit, however, that the premise was attacked unsoundly and
>illogically. BFD, here, I have given a scenario that is reality.
>American children are misbehaving brats, Euro-children rein supreme.
>>
>> >This is what I think of American
>> >brat-ass children versus well-mannered European children. Obviously, the
>> >only way to acheive this is with an iron hand and maybe the French as
>> >other Europeans, do beat their children, as mentioned in the original
>> >post. No, I did not get this from a book, by Polly Platt or anyone else.
>> >
You must be very uninformed about American children. Like children
everywhere there are good and bad. To label all as brat-ass well that
shows your ignorance about children over here.
cheers,
tonyf
Frank
> In article <Pine.SOL.4.05.101041...@eis.bris.ac.uk>, CG
> Luxford <hi...@bris.ac.uk> wrote:
>
> >On 14 Apr 2001, Chris Hedley wrote:
> >> Frank <ne...@hackamore.com> writes:
> >> > France is a State.
> >>
> >> No it isn't. It's an independant country;
Hi,
independent no longer. it's surrendered parts of it's sovereignty to the
European Union.
it formerly -was- a sovereign independent State.
Frank
alas you can't seem to deal with the subject matter at hand and don't have the basic
vocabulary to even learn the subtle differences in meanings.
I guess that means you surrender.
ttfn
k_sumter
to...@igou.com wrote:
>
> On Sat, 14 Apr 2001 20:25:46 GMT, k_sumter <ks8...@hwa.net> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >Robert Buxbaum wrote:
> >>
> >> In article <3AD896D8...@hwa.net>, k_sumter <ks8...@hwa.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> >Forget the "high school movies."
> >>
> >> Uh, you broght them up. Hope you have a better start now.
> >
> >That analogy was lost on rte and indeed may have been misguided. I
> >submit, however, that the premise was attacked unsoundly and
> >illogically. BFD, here, I have given a scenario that is reality.
> >American children are misbehaving brats, Euro-children rein supreme.
> >>
> >> >This is what I think of American
> >> >brat-ass children versus well-mannered European children. Obviously, the
> >> >only way to acheive this is with an iron hand and maybe the French as
> >> >other Europeans, do beat their children, as mentioned in the original
> >> >post. No, I did not get this from a book, by Polly Platt or anyone else.
> >> >
> You must be very uninformed about American children. Like children
> everywhere there are good and bad. To label all as brat-ass well that
> shows your ignorance about children over here.
> cheers,
> tonyf
Dear Tony,
I beg to differ. The Amero-Brats are truly noisy, selfish, uncontrolled
packs of trailer-trash-in-training. It is patently obvious and to wit, I
have one of the finest people on this or any other message forum to back
me up. This person is an intellectual extraodinaire, the holder of
multiple degrees and will prove you wrong with his irrefutable logic.
Besides which and that person may correct me if I'm wrong, I am under
the impression he has witnessed more than a few instances of these
Amero-Brats kicking up their heels in a rowdy and ill mannered fashion.
Sincerely,
Child-free and loving it
Frank
>
> No it isn't. It's an independant country; the fact that it's part of a
> larger political conglomerate doesn't really diminish that.
>
> > Texas is a State. (and of similar size too).
>
> Really. What's the population of Texas again?
Hi,
I don't believe population was mentioned, only size. I'm sure you can look
both up in hectares, km**2, or whatever unit you so choose.
Texas was and is a sovereign and independent State, like France, with
sovereignty over everything it hasn't surrendered to the larger union (or
"political conglomerate"). In the case of Texas it's the U.S. Federal
Government, which is granted ALL it's powers by the many sovereign States.
In the case of France it's the European Union.
you really need to get out your O.E.D. and look up the definitions of
"state".
k_sumter
Frank wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> alas you can't seem to deal with the subject matter at hand and don't have the basic
> vocabulary to even learn the subtle differences in meanings.
>
> I guess that means you surrender.
>
> ttfn
Cripes, I'm sorry Frank, next time I visit the UN I'll be sure to look
up the Delegates from Texas and New Mexico. BTW have you seen the new
New Mexico Embassy? It's a big adobe thing. Too bad they have to tear it
down. Too many people were trying to pull into the drive-thru thinking
it was a new Taco Bell on Embassy Row.
A. J. Vinson
I didn't know you posted on this NG. Have you ever been to France?
Your old friend West of the Sabine.
A. J.
NKA
> NKA wrote:
> >
> > In article <3AD764FF...@hwa.net>, k_sumter <ks8...@hwa.net> wrote:
> >
> > > I'm sure that's where I got my insanely bizarre ideas about French
> > > culture and hell, on top of that, I only gots one little measly degree.
> >
> > Did you learn that all people do not think alike and are entitled to
> > their opinions and perceptions based on their experiences? Where did
> > you get your one measly degree that tought you to be so tolerant and
> > knowledgeable?
>
> My goodness, you sound just like Tauger and Buxbaum, the RTE tag team.
I will take their company in the RTE tag team to yours. You never seem
to answer questions that are asked of you. Do you have a problem with
answering questions that are asked?
David Gascon
>
> Paul E Rosete wrote:
> >
> > "Dr. George O. Bizzigotti" <gbiz...@mitretek.org> wrote in message
> > news:hnsddt4154vsl8vk2...@4ax.com...
> > > On Fri, 13 Apr 2001 03:39:34 GMT, k_sumter <ks8...@hwa.net> wrote:
> > >
> > > That's odd; I've watched (admittedly only a few of the many) American
> > > "high school" movies and I could not find even the slightest
> > > resemblance to the American school system of which I am a product. I
> > > suppose that's the problem with getting cultural truth from Hollywood.
> > > (Either that, or after 25 years, the American HS is as foreign to me
> > > as it is to the French, which also suggests something about enduring
> > > cultural stereotypes.)
> > >
> > Well, my 2 teenage daughters (14 and 18) attend two different schools
> > (middle and high school) and *they* always laugh at how exaggerated,
> > unrealistic, ridiculous, etc., Hollywood's portrayal of the current American
> > high school "scene" tends to be. So, you're not alone in holding the
> > opinion that the typical American public school environment is greatly
> > exaggerated and actually distorted by filmmakers, just to sell their
> > product.
> >
> > What always amazes me even more is the number of people who develop their
> > sense of reality by watching TV or movies, especially when it deals with
> > other cultures.
>
> I'm sure that's where I got my insanely bizarre ideas about French
> culture and hell, on top of that, I only gots one little measly degree.
Thank goodness: you're tiresome enough with just the one.
Eldon Mains
k_sumter wrote:
> In rereading this post, I would like to clarify one point; the girl in
> Platt's book committed suicide _after_ she returned to France.
>
> k_sumter wrote:
> >
> > Elisabeth Bouynot wrote:
> > >
> > > In article <3AD5CE94...@hwa.net>, ks8...@hwa.net says...
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Elisabeth Bouynot wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > In article <3AD552D2...@hwa.net>, ks8...@hwa.net says...
> > > > > > There are cases of
> > > > > > French children having lived part of their adolescence in the US,
> > > > > > returning to France with its rigid code of cultural behaviour and not
> > > > > > being able to adjust after having experienced the freedom of American
> > > > > > culture. In some instances committing suicide.
> > > > >
> > > > > IMO, pure BS. Actually, I was an exchange student in the US, and I felt
> > > > > suicidally depressed (looking back, I'd say it was the lack of
> > > > > intellectual challenge) after 6 months there, not when coming back. And
> > > > > I was not the only one. If you call a "rigid code of cultural
> > > > > behaviour" the fact that you can't drive your own car at 16 and have to
> > > > > be home for diner, too bad.
> > > >
> > > > How old were you?
> >
> > > 16.
> >
> > > > How long were you exposed to the American culture?
> >
> > > 9 months, 3 of which I don't want to remember. The Swedish girl who was
> > > there the year before me had the same problem.
> >
> > I would submit that 9 months at 16 is a far cry from someone spending
> > three years during the ages of 12-15. You were focused on 9 months in a
> > foreign country at 16, presumably without your parents. The girl in this
> > instance learned to live the American culture with its attendant
> > openness, freedom of expression, drugs, etc. Watch any of the many
> > American "high school" movies and see if you can find even the slightest
> > resemblance to the French school system.
> >
> > > > This particular incident happened to a girl who spent three years of her
> > > > early teens going to an American public school.
> > > So this is one instance, and not "some instances". I have two examples
> > > to the opposite: American girls who chose to study in France.
> >
> > It is more than one instance, it is simply the one from Platt's book and
> > is dramatically different as to both your age and time spent in the US.
> > >
> > > > She then returned to a
> > > > French school system (with its incredible pressure on performance) and
> > > > the restrictive cultural rules.
> >
> > > You mean, the teachers actually expected her to _work_? Gee. There was
> > > only one course in my US high school that stretched my mind a bit
> > > (chemistry), and the teacher told me he was under pressure (from the
> > > school board) to "ease up" his courses and grades, so the poor darlin's
> > > wouldn't have such a hard time.
> >
> > Thank you. Precisely my point.
> >
> > > As for the restrictive cultural rules, what do you mean? Don't skip
> > > school? I never felt very much "restricted" growing up in France.
> >
> > I'm sure you didn't, for you it was the norm.
> >
> > > > Be home for dinner? You have just described one of the causative factors
> > > > in the demise of American culture. Our children seem to do whatever they
> > > > want, whenever they want.
> >
> > > So that "rigid code of cultural behaviour" isn't so bad, is it?
> >
> > Never said or even intimated it was and in many ways I think it is an
> > enviable system. Sorry to quote the now despised Platt book, but in
> > talking about the strict behavioral mores that are inherent in raising
> > children in the French culture it seems Americans going there to live
> > are shocked by it. They tend to go into this psycho babble how this is
> > so bad for the (French) children and it will do them untold harm,
> > they'll be mal-adjusted, etc. And it just ain't so, is it? It works
> > quite well in my opinion.
--
Eldon Mains
ema...@hillflorist.com
http://www.hillflorist.com
http://www.rosepromotions.com
http://www.flowersbydonna.com
Eldon Mains
k_sumter wrote:
--
k_sumter
growing up in unfettered freedom in and of of everything, she returned
to her homeland and couldn't cope with the restrictive everything. Of
course a French native wouldn't understand that nor would they be
expected to. "Restrictive? What's restrictive?" they might inquire.
k_sumter
Here's an observation from a message I read from the web, not to violate
anyone's copyright, it is too long to paraphrase and actually the writer
is so talented that putting it in my own words would not to the anecdote
justice (except for all those extra commas legal scholars love to add to
normal everyday writing).
It was a 17th century castle in a picturesque town called Sintra, not
far from Lisbon; coming around a corner, there it was: a school group of
about 20 kindergarten-age children. These little kids were the model of
well-behaved (and actually rather charming) children -- not one _word_
out of any of them, they held their partner's hands, stayed in line, and
did everything their teachers told them (and there were 2 teachers with
this group). Somebody remarked on how strict the teachers appeared and
indeed they were. And the result was these perfectly nice little kids,
in a museum who, judging from their wide-eyed expressions, were enjoying
what they saw and did so without the slightest imposition on anyone
else.
Later, on a walk through Sintra, there was a very large group of
junior-high aged kids on another tour. Surprisingly, there was no
yelling, no horse-play, no disrespect or discourtesy -- they talked
quietly and calmly to each other, stepped aside to allow adults to pass
and like their younger compatriots, obviously were enjoying their time
in the ancient town and did so without being a nuisance to every one
else. Another group of great European kids!
And then there was the mob of American teenagers, hanging out in front
of the palace in Sintra. They didn't shoot each other, but did just
about everything else -- they blocked the stairs to the museum and
wouldn't move, they were loud and offensive, chased each other around
throwing water bottles and in general, embodied every single
objectionable quality of American children which of course, simply
reflects their upbringing.
In general, it could be said that American children (and their
handlers), whether at home or overseas (if you happen to travel a lot)
tend to be the worst in the world. There are many horror stories about
European children (though no Asia stories), but on the whole, European
kids are a pleasure compared to their American counterparts.
Frank
dealing with petty foreign states is one of the minor affairs delegated by these united States to
our federal government.
Bob Vandiver
> My personal opinion is that it's difficult to be dropped
> into a foreign society as a student. My suspicion is that both France and
> the U.S. have places for all sorts of students, but that the natives are the
> ones best suited to finding the proper place for their children or for the
> children to have adjusted slowly to their place. In many ways I prefer the
> openess of the American education system, but then that's the system I know
> best. Both systems have their strengths and faults. The academic standards
> may be higher in France, but the American students may more often be
> encouraged to think creatively....
The trouble I have with this observation Robert is that the French are
not exactly known for a lack of creativity so they are probably doing
something right here. The American system may excessively encourage
creativity, to an extent that there is a lack of critical thinking. IF
there was a cultural inclusion of this the New Age movement would not be
the thriving thing that it unfortunately is.
Bob
>As to which is more intellectual, it may
> depend on your definition of intellectual. While Americans may tend to
> spout a wole lot of nonesense at times
That's for sure (see above)
, the French are apt to repeat exactly
> what they have been taught.
The question is... once they have that body of knowledge, are they
taught how to think?
Bob
--
Liberals feel unworthy of their possessions. Conservatives feel they deserve
everything they've stolen.
Mort Sahl
Bob Vandiver
> You must be very uninformed about American children. Like children
> everywhere there are good and bad. To label all as brat-ass well that
> shows your ignorance about children over here.
> cheers,
> tonyf
Open your eyes and learn. American kids are taught to be narcissistic
pigs. Yes of course there are exceptions.
Bob Vandiver
c...@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) wrote:
> > Texas is a State. (and of similar size too).
Given the cheese head that is apparently occupying the White House I
continue to urgently plea that Texans be allowed to travel wherever they
wish in the U.S.
With a passport.
Frank
like in the European Union in these united States there is no need for a
passport for citizens of the various States.
T&B
>Hi,
>
>like in the European Union in these united States there is no need for a
>passport for citizens of the various States.
What a pity.
Vlad Defives
>independent no longer. it's surrendered parts of it's sovereignty to the
>European Union.
>
>it formerly -was- a sovereign independent State.
Maybe. But France is not still a former colony's colony.
Chris Hedley
Frank <ne...@hackamore.com> writes:
> I don't believe population was mentioned, only size. I'm sure you can look
> both up in hectares, km**2, or whatever unit you so choose.
The population density may not have been mentioned, but it seems reasonable
to infer that was being referred to since the physical size of the area is
of little relevance to its political status.
> Texas was and is a sovereign and independent State, like France, with
> sovereignty over everything it hasn't surrendered to the larger union (or
> "political conglomerate"). In the case of Texas it's the U.S. Federal
> Government, which is granted ALL it's powers by the many sovereign States.
> In the case of France it's the European Union.
>
> you really need to get out your O.E.D. and look up the definitions of
> "state".
I can see this is already going to degenerate into an argument about
semantics. I'm afraid I can't be bothered.
Chris.
to...@igou.com
Robert Buxbaum
Vandiver <boban...@imagina.com> wrote:
We're both on dangerous ground here. I profess to abhor stereotypes, but
even here I'm a bit guilty. In both countries you will find inltelligent,
clever, creative well educated types as well as dunces. My impression is
that we tend to encourage more creativity in our students than they do in
France. Their system is a bit more rigid, ours is a bit more flexible.
While the French are not known for a lack of creativity, I do see a more
successful pattern of it here. but I won't claim to be an expert. I
recently read a fascinating article on start ups. the number of Europeans
who came to the US because they felt there was a better chance to succeed
with new ideas was interesting reading, but it was hardly an investigative
study.
--
<www.worldtable.com> Food/Wine/Travel
-
new offer for car rental and leasing in Europe
posted 21 June 2000
Robert Buxbaum
>Paul Tauger wrote:
>>
>> Well, well, apparently your one degree included a class in google.com,
>> though not one in citation or copyright law.
>
>1. Give the misquoted cite;
>
>2. What was your claimed third graduate degree in;
>
>3. You should be flattered;
>
>4. Sue me.
>
It's occurred to me that you are not child-free, but a child. You are
disruptive in the group, unable to demonstrate an attention span long enough
to stay on topic toothe thread, resort to petty name-calling when unable to
argue a point and perhaps even when able to argue the point. You make
single ovservations into case studies in your mind and take case studies as
irrelevant observations. More over you argue with those whose experience is
greater than yours claiming it colors their opinions.
You recent observations regarding European school groups in museums and
cultural sites is far removed from mine. I have seen loud unruly groups of
french and Spanish students with no regard for the interests of the adults
forced into their company in castles and museums.
k_sumter
Robert Buxbaum wrote:
>
> In article <3AD8CB96...@hwa.net>, k_sumter <ks8...@hwa.net> wrote:
>
> >Paul Tauger wrote:
> >>
> >> Well, well, apparently your one degree included a class in google.com,
> >> though not one in citation or copyright law.
> >
> >1. Give the misquoted cite;
> >
> >2. What was your claimed third graduate degree in;
> >
> >3. You should be flattered;
> >
> >4. Sue me.
> >
>
> It's occurred to me that you are not child-free, but a child. You are
> disruptive in the group, unable to demonstrate an attention span long enough
> to stay on topic to the thread, resort to petty name-calling when unable to
> argue a point and perhaps even when able to argue the point. You make
> single ovservations into case studies in your mind and take case studies as
> irrelevant observations. More over you argue with those whose experience is
> greater than yours claiming it colors their opinions.
Oh, please, Bobby, you and your fellow rte cop, Tauger, will argue to
the death points that you know are long lost, just because you can't
handle being wrong. So you start spinning things to make yourselves
correct. Absolute zero objectivity on your part. For example, how do you
know what my level of experience is?
> You recent observations regarding European school groups in museums and
> cultural sites is far removed from mine. I have seen loud unruly groups of
> French and Spanish students with no regard for the interests of the adults
> forced into their company in castles and museums.
Well, apparently it would seem that your pal, Lord Tauger, would
disagree with you.
to...@igou.com
Well after a two week tour of England and France the only unruly
teenagers I saw were in Bath. We were watching a street performer and
a group of French teens were trying to be louder than the street
performer. Did I ass u me that all of the young people in France acted
like this? NO! If I was to ass u me that all French children were like
the unruly ones I observed I would be as totaly ignorant as you.
cheers,
tonyf
k_sumter
Buxbaum Rule No. 62: If you have no experience, don't be making any
observations on rte.
louisa
the worst behaving children I have ever observed were young French
children at the Chagal Museum in Nice. Their teacher allowed them to run
and yell and bounce off the walls [literally] and throw crayons in the
lovely and quiet chapel where I was sitting to meditate. These brats
bounced off walls near the priceless stained glass windows and also were
allowed to mistreat the painted piano at the front of the room.
The second worse batch were eastern European kids on a plane trip who were
allowed to run amuck the entire flight.
I also observed a family of Germans who allowed their brats to run amuck
in public in Florence.
Does this make the French, the Germans or Eastern Europeans bad parents?
Of course not -- there are badly behaved children anywhere. Some parents
do a good job and some don't.
Nothing however is as pathetic as people who designate themselves 'child
free' as if this were a virtue. It is just as well that such smug
childish and selfish people are NOT raising the next generation of
citizens.