Russia worried about loss of Russian language in former USSR republics
yp11
What a joy. If the Russkies don't like it, Russia is just over the
border. No one forces them to stay in Ukraine.
In Canada, even though Quebec is just a province, it's only official
language is French, and if someone wants to live in Quebec, he/she
better learn French. But Russians living in Ukraine and other CIS
countries or in the Baltics think that they should be entitled to use
their own language. They should realize that the time of Imperial
Russia and of the Evil Soviet Empire are over.
Yuri
http://english.pravda.ru/main/18/90/363/10964_language.html
Russian Language in CIS: Life After Death
09/25/2003 16:45
Russia is seeking the official status for the Russian language on the
whole of the post-Soviet territory
First Deputy Foreign Minister of the Russian Federation Eleonora
Mitrofanova delivered a lecture to students of Moscow's International
University. She said: "The Foreign Ministry intends to work actively
on strengthening the positions of the Russian language abroad. We want
to seek the status of an official language for Russian in majority of
CIS countries and on those territories of the former Soviet Union
where Russian-speaking population is considerable enough."
Eleonora Mitrofanova emphasizes that majority of the CIS countries now
prefer national languages to Russian. She thinks that another serious
problem is that schools where lessons are taught in the Russian
language are often closed, and the usage of Russian is restricted in
the education sphere and in public life. The number of TV and radio
programs in Russian is insignificant there; the usage of
Russian-language literature is also decreasing.
The first deputy foreign minister says that support of the Russian
language is one of the main objectives in supporting Russians abroad.
Budgetary financing appropriated for these purposes in 2003 makes up
210 million rubles. Part of the sum will be spent to deliver text
books to the CIS countries, to improve professional skills of the
Russian language teachers and to give children an opportunity to spend
vacations in Russian recreation centers. Eleonora Mitrofanova says
that Russia will appropriate 252 million rubles for these purposes.
For the time being, the Russian language has the status of an official
language only in Belarus and Kyrgyzstan. Some progress with respect to
the Russian language has been achieved in Moldova and Uzbekistan. But
other former Soviet republics don't do this favor to the
Russian-speaking population as they treat the very idea of giving the
official status to the Russian language as threat to their
independence. They insist that a language spoken by the ethnic
majority must be the official language of the republic.
So, the present-day situation is rather sad because studying of the
Russian language as the native or non-mother language has considerably
decreased. Within the past ten years, the CIS and Baltic countries
have created extremely unfavorable conditions for studying of the
Russian language. However, the Russian language is experiencing a
particularly tragic period in Ukraine where it is being crowded out of
different communication spheres including mass media. If Russian is
still studied at some of educational institutions, the time meant for
studies is 20 times less than for other foreign languages. As for the
cultural sphere, the usage of the Russian language is being
purposefully reduced as well. Russian is the mother tongue for many
people living in the CIS or Baltic countries, but the system of the
Russian language study at schools and higher education institutions is
destroyed.
It's time to put the words into practice. As the Russian diaspora
makes up about 40 per cent of the population in many of the CIS
countries, then the Russian policy with respect to Russians living
abroad must protect all interests of everything related to the very
notion "Russian". The Russian government must demand that attitude to
Russians living in former Soviet republics must be adequate because
they make up a great share of the local population. This doesn't imply
any specific privileges or russianization of these countries. It means
that Russian people living in the CIS countries must be given the
opportunity to study and use the Russian language which is in fact the
legal right fixed in the constitutions of each of the CIS countries.
Dmitry Chirkin
Read the original in Russian:
http://politics.pravda.ru/politics/2003/1/1/5/13865_MID.html
(Translated by: Maria Gousseva)
Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
> The status of Russian language in Ukraine is tragic, tragic!
> What a joy. If the Russkies don't like it, Russia is just over the
> border. No one forces them to stay in Ukraine.
>
> In Canada, even though Quebec is just a province, it's only official
> language is French, and if someone wants to live in Quebec, he/she
> better learn French. But Russians living in Ukraine and other CIS
> countries or in the Baltics think that they should be entitled to use
> their own language. They should realize that the time of Imperial
> Russia and of the Evil Soviet Empire are over.
>
> Yuri
>
> http://english.pravda.ru/main/18/90/363/10964_language.html
>
I would recommend that in the CIS and former sattelite countries
there should be an official effort to teach the history of Russian
as it relates to that country.
I.e. the history of policies wrt. Russification in the country.
In Ukraine it would be the history of the various anti Ukrainian
language UKASES. In some of the Caucasian countries, it would be
the forced adoption of the Cyrilic alphabet replacing the previous
either latin or arabic.
In addition in Ukraine the students should be taught the history
of the formation of the Russian language and the several reforms
of Russian carried out with the aid of Ukrainian scholars.
--
Rostyk
Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
Oh one more item which I forgot in the previous post.
Each of the CIS countries should negotiate reciprocal language
rights with Russia. i.e If say Ukraine were to make Russian
an official language, then Russia makes Ukrainian an official
language, without any weasle clauses or restrictions.
Any such reciprocity to be subject to cancelation for non compliance.
Thus Russia might be faced with having multiple country wide
official languages.
--
Rostyk
yp11
Have you noticed, Rostyk, that the Russian members of this newsgroup
appear to have no defense as to this position of the Putin government.
It is really undefensible in a democratic society.
Yuri
Mikhail Medved
<skipped>
> >
> Oh how tragic. :)
> I would recommend that in the CIS and former sattelite countries
> there should be an official effort to teach the history of Russian
> as it relates to that country.
> I.e. the history of policies wrt. Russification in the country.
> In Ukraine it would be the history of the various anti Ukrainian
> language UKASES. In some of the Caucasian countries, it would be
> the forced adoption of the Cyrilic alphabet replacing the previous
> either latin or arabic.
> In addition in Ukraine the students should be taught the history
> of the formation of the Russian language and the several reforms
> of Russian carried out with the aid of Ukrainian scholars.
All of the above is already widely taought. Where have you been? On Mars?
Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
>>Each of the CIS countries should negotiate reciprocal language
>>rights with Russia. i.e If say Ukraine were to make Russian
>>an official language, then Russia makes Ukrainian an official
>>language, without any weasle clauses or restrictions.
>>Any such reciprocity to be subject to cancelation for non compliance.
>>Thus Russia might be faced with having multiple country wide
>>official languages.
>>>Rostyk
>>>
>
> Have you noticed, Rostyk, that the Russian members of this newsgroup
> appear to have no defense as to this position of the Putin government.
> It is really undefensible in a democratic society.
>
> Yuri
Well I hadn't really expected them to defend it.
They probably fully agree with the spirit and see nothing in it that
needs defending. :(. That is my reading of their psyche.
But anyway, what does it have to do with democracy or a democratic
society?
--
Rostyk
Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
No. I am and have been in the United States.
But if as you claim these things are being widely taught, then
I applaud this enlightened policy of glasnost.
When was this material introduced into the curriculum?
Is the history of these Russian policies in the empire
also taught to the students in Russia?
--
Rostyk
yp11
<urj...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
I don't think that the U.S., as a democratic society, has a policy of
teaching the American language (although it is basically English,
there is also the so called "idiomatic" American), for example in
Mexico, or ever in Iraq. They have voted to spend $20 billion for
Iraqi reconstruction, etc., but nothing there for spreading the
American language. I don't think that the French or the Germans are
providing policies and financing for spreading their language to
neighboring countries which don't speak it. In fact the EU documents
are presently being translated in some 15 languages and this will soon
increase with the addition of new members. That is what I meant by
"democratic society".
In how many languages do you think the CIS documents are being
translated?
Yuri
Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
are there in the countries that belong to CIS? I would expect the
documents to be translated into each of them.
But I still disagree with you that a nations external language
policy has any logical cause-effect connection with whether
a country has a democratic or undemocratic regime.
I think that Russia is the exception counter example.
Officially it is a democracy. Yet its' government is espousing
an imperialist (expansionist) foreign policy with regard to
the Russian language. Further I believe that a referendum
on this point in Russia, just might show all the Russian areas
voting in support of the policy.
--
Rostyk
Egor Bolonev
>>Well I hadn't really expected them to defend it.
>>They probably fully agree with the spirit and see nothing in it that
>>needs defending. :(. That is my reading of their psyche.
>>But anyway, what does it have to do with democracy or a democratic
>>society?
>
>
> I don't think that the U.S., as a democratic society, has a policy of
> teaching the American language (although it is basically English,
> there is also the so called "idiomatic" American), for example in
> Mexico, or ever in Iraq. They have voted to spend $20 billion for
> Iraqi reconstruction, etc., but nothing there for spreading the
> American language. I don't think that the French or the Germans are
> providing policies and financing for spreading their language to
> neighboring countries which don't speak it. In fact the EU documents
> are presently being translated in some 15 languages and this will soon
> increase with the addition of new members. That is what I meant by
> "democratic society".
EU has much more langs, and it's impossible to support all of them(max 3).
Ukraine has many russian citizens, so it's a good idea to support them.
Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
> yp11 wrote:
>> I urj...@bellsouth.net wrote:
>
>>> Well I hadn't really expected them to defend it.
>>> They probably fully agree with the spirit and see nothing in it that
>>> needs defending. :(. That is my reading of their psyche.
>>> But anyway, what does it have to do with democracy or a democratic
>>> society?
>>
>> In fact the EU documents are presently being translated in some 15 languages
>> and this will soon increase with the addition of new members.
>> That is what I meant by "democratic society".
>
> EU has much more langs, and it's impossible to support all of them(max 3).
> Ukraine has many russian citizens, so it's a good idea to support them.
>
languages. But you claim this is impossible ?
Why are there so many russian citizens in Ukraine?
*Pochemu tak mnogo russkih grazhdaninov v Ukraini? *
Do russians in the USA stay russian citizens?
Why is it a good idea to support russian citizens in Ukraine ?
Why should it be a good idea to support russians in Ukraine?
--
Rostyk
Egor Bolonev
> Egor Bolonev wrote:
>
>> yp11 wrote:
>
> >> I urj...@bellsouth.net wrote:
>
>>
>>>> Well I hadn't really expected them to defend it.
>>>> They probably fully agree with the spirit and see nothing in it that
>>>> needs defending. :(. That is my reading of their psyche.
>>>> But anyway, what does it have to do with democracy or a democratic
>>>> society?
>>>
>>>
>>> .................................
>>> In fact the EU documents are presently being translated in some 15
>>> languages
>>> and this will soon increase with the addition of new members.
>>> That is what I meant by "democratic society".
>>
>>
>> EU has much more langs, and it's impossible to support all of them(max
>> 3).
>> Ukraine has many russian citizens, so it's a good idea to support them.
>>
> Yuri wrote that the EU documents are being translated into 15
> languages. But you claim this is impossible ?
It's absolutely imposible. They claim, but they do not. There are a problem
languages, f.e. finnish. There is a big lack of -finnish- translators. When
they increase language number, there will be a "catastrophe" - technical or
"democracy" or both of them.
> Why are there so many russian citizens in Ukraine?
Тебе не нравится слово citizens? How about people-who-do-not-speak-ukraiane,
f.e. - prezident-of-ukraine-who-speak-some-mixturelang.
> *Pochemu tak mnogo russkih grazhdaninov v Ukraini? *
> Do russians in the USA stay russian citizens?
> Why is it a good idea to support russian citizens in Ukraine ?
It's gainfully.
yp11
wrote:
>yp11 <yp...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<296pov89ctih5osjb...@4ax.com>...
>> On 14 Oct 2003 10:09:41 -0700, mikhai...@mail.ru (Mikhail Medved)
>> wrote:
>>
>> >yp11 <yp...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<7pglovkrdvt5rrquq...@4ax.com>...
>> >> The status of Russian language in Ukraine is tragic, tragic!
>> >> What a joy. If the Russkies don't like it, Russia is just over the
>> >> border. No one forces them to stay in Ukraine.
>> >
>> >Unlike you, those people are citizens of Ukraine, and it is up to them
>> >to decide what to do. You have no say in that.
>> >
>> >And I think they'll decide to give their language an appropriate
>> >status - together with the Ukrainian. And again, you will have no say
>> >in that decision.
>> >
>> Thank you for reminding me of my "no say in that" status.
>
>You're always welcome, Yuri. And it is easy to fix, actually - go live
>in Ukraine, take Ukrainian citizenship. You won't need to give up your
>current citizenship, and you'll see first-hand what problems Urkainian
>citizens actually face.
>
>> But to some
>> extent I must contradict you in this statement. Over the past few
>> years we have received many Ukrainian government delegations in
>> Canada, some of whom came here precisely to study the situation of how
>> Canada handles its language system
>> .
>> We were able to talk extensively with these people and I believe we
>> were able to influence them at least to some extent. This is shown in
>> the fact that the Ukrainian government has adopted a fairly stringent
>> policy of Ukrainian language as the only official language in the
>> country. In fact this has been put in the Ukrainian constitution and
>> therefore will be rather difficult to change. Voila.
>
>It shows something about that government representatives - they aren't
>concerned what its citizens and constituents think. Instead, they seek
>an approval in the country 10,000 miles away. I dare think that those
>representatvies are not very democratic, and I dare think that people
>of Ukraine will soon give a good boot to those government
>representatives.
>
>As for "stringent policies" - it is impossible to force some 40% of
>the country to give up their language and culture. Again, I dare
>predict that those "stringent policies" will be softened fairly soon.
>That's democracy, Yuri, whether you like it or not. Voila, mon cher.
>
I don't think, Michail, that anyone in Ukraine wants to prevent the
20% of the ethnic Russians to use their language when speaking to
others in a private manner. They are also welcome to study their
language and culture in private schools that they may wish to
establish at their own expense. Ukrainians should also have a basic
knowledge of Russian culture and language, but not at the expense of
their own (i chuzhomu nauchaytes' - svoho ne tsuraytes' ).
On the other hand, all official matters in Ukraine should be handled
only in the official Ukrainian language. That was our recommendation
to those Ukrainians who visited Canada and I am pleased to see that
they have adopted it.
I also agree that eventually this may be relaxed. But it takes time to
reverse 300 years of Russification in Ukraine. Give Ukrainians a
couple of generations of language exclusivity (and hopefully get rid
of the Moscow patriarchate of the Orthodox Church), and things would
become "normal" by themselves.
As for me, I have visited Ukraine a few times and do business with
some Ukrainian professionals (including Ukrainians who have Russian
names) and I am delighted to report they all seem to know the
Ukrainian language very well and write to me in perfect Ukrainian.
Voila.
Yuri
captain!
> On the other hand, all official matters in Ukraine should be handled
> only in the official Ukrainian language. That was our recommendation
> to those Ukrainians who visited Canada and I am pleased to see that
> they have adopted it.
>
yuri sometimes likes to pretend that he is a powerful representative of the
ukrainian-canadian community. (in between fluffing the pillows and changing
the sheets)
<snipped>
AV
Sounds stupid, isn't it ?
> --
> Rostyk
>
Snuffy Smith
"Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj" <urj...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:At2jb.7829$w_5....@bignews4.bellsouth.net...
If everybody would stop putzing around and just speak English you wouldn't
need translators.
Think of all the misunderstandings that just wouldn't happen if everybody
just spoke one language (English).
yp11
wrote:
"captain" is trying to pretend that he is not the "village idiot",
which he obviously is.
Maxopka
Because the idea of "yedinaya nedilimaya matushka Rossiya"
still lingers on. ( the only one indivisible mother Russia )
Maxopka
Maxopka
<<<<<<<Most deleted for brevity>>>>>
> "Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj" <urj...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> news:At2jb.7829$w_5....@bignews4.bellsouth.net...
> > yp11 wrote:
>
> > > In how many languages do you think the CIS documents are being
> > > translated?
> > >
> > > Yuri
> > >
> > Oh, I don't know. How many different official national languages
> > are there in the countries that belong to CIS? I would expect the
> > documents to be translated into each of them.
>
> If everybody would stop putzing around and just speak English you wouldn't
> need translators.
Except for those living in Bronx area , Kentucky hillbillies and most blokes
from
Worcestershire on Thames...
> Think of all the misunderstandings that just wouldn't happen if everybody
> just spoke one language (English).
Right on ! The best recent example was a deep understanding action by
Tony Blair and Georgie Bush to save mankind from the menace of
"mass destruction weapons".. Thanks goodness they didn't spoke Swahili
to each other
Maxopka
captain!
even though you once gave me a hard time for not using capital letters, i
notice that your response contained none. could it be that the wisdom of the
captain is starting to rub off on you?
Mikhail Medved
I don't think how handling official matters in areas with
predominantly Russian population in Russian can hurt Ukrainian culture
or statehood. Receiving sufficient education in your own language is
also basic right.
As for "adopting" policies recommended by some minority group in
distant land overseas - well, if you feel better, that's fine. I would
feel sorry for the Ukrainian nation, by and large, if they have to
seek approval of some minority group in a country completely foreign
and unrelated.
> I also agree that eventually this may be relaxed. But it takes time to
> reverse 300 years of Russification in Ukraine. Give Ukrainians a
> couple of generations of language exclusivity (and hopefully get rid
> of the Moscow patriarchate of the Orthodox Church), and things would
> become "normal" by themselves.
"300 years of Russification" was a long time period. It also included
a period of time when Ukrainian culture, literature etc. was
sponsored. Again, you may deny the obvious but you can hardly change
the facts. You can also compare results of "Russification by brutal
Russia" with, for example, anglofication of Ireland by soft and
civilized Britts. I don't like political mythology, and painting
Russia as the most ethnically-intolerant state is definitely a myth.
There was a lot of everything during those 300 years, both good and
bad.
> As for me, I have visited Ukraine a few times and do business with
> some Ukrainian professionals (including Ukrainians who have Russian
> names) and I am delighted to report they all seem to know the
> Ukrainian language very well and write to me in perfect Ukrainian.
That's excellent. It shows that the whole issue is overstated and
exploited by politicians with certain agenda. Just let people live,
that's all.
> Voila.
>
> Yuri
Mikhail Medved
May be, he is. Since I don't know Yuri personally, I'd rather assume
that he is telling the truth. But it hardly matters in this case. I
know all those visits, how they are organized, paid etc. A group of
government functionaries got an invitaion for a business trip, fully
paid by their Canadian hosts, with the goal to learn how ethnic
problems are solved in Canada.
Is it useful? Of course, it is. Canada is a society with more than one
language, and countries with similar situation should learn from
Canadian experience.
Will visitors "adopt" everything they are told by an immigrant group
in their host country? Not necessarily, even if courtesy required them
to say something their hosts would feel good about.
Snuffy Smith
"captain!" <SpamI...@here.now> wrote in message
Cap'n, Your yp11-to-English translator needs a firmware upgrade. What he is
saying is that you are spot on with deadly accuracy.
Snuffy Smith
"Maxopka" <imax...@biternet.ua> wrote in message
news:3F8F7FAC...@biternet.ua...
The British royal family is working on acquiring Swahili capability. Once
you've had black, you can't go back.
As soon as Bush learns English, maybe he'll start working on Swahili as a
second language?
staten
> "captain!" <SpamI...@here.now> wrote in message news:<XtDjb.109797$pl3.89331@pd7tw3no>...
> > "yp11" <yp...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:dq8tovs4fl49sleav...@4ax.com...
> > > On 15 Oct 2003 10:30:35 -0700, mikhai...@mail.ru (Mikhail Medved)
> > > wrote:
> > <snipped>
> >
> > > On the other hand, all official matters in Ukraine should be handled
> > > only in the official Ukrainian language. That was our recommendation
> > > to those Ukrainians who visited Canada and I am pleased to see that
> > > they have adopted it.
> > >
> >
> > yuri sometimes likes to pretend that he is a powerful representative of the
> > ukrainian-canadian community. (in between fluffing the pillows and changing
> > the sheets)
> >
> > <snipped>
>
> May be, he is. Since I don't know Yuri personally, I'd rather assume
> that he is telling the truth. But it hardly matters in this case. I
> know all those visits, how they are organized, paid etc. A group of
> government functionaries got an invitaion for a business trip, fully
> paid by their Canadian hosts, with the goal to learn how ethnic
> problems are solved in Canada.
>
> Is it useful? Of course, it is. Canada is a society with more than one
> language, and countries with similar situation should learn from
> Canadian experience.
Russia is a society with more than one hundred languages. Have
Russians learnt from their own experince? Namely , at least one
language but Russian?
staten
....and because of a strong belief that Russia has to be and will be a
new Rome one day. If someone has doubts about this matter, tovarishch
Petukhov is available for 24 hours to clear any doubts.
ruskgb
Ja vsegda govoril chto Amerikatsev nado ubivat' gde tol'ko ih
vstretish. Saddam , nesmotya na ego negativnie storoni , v obschem to
delaet ochen' pravil'nie veshchi. Esli bi mi vse sledovali ego
primeru , v mire namnogo bilo bi men'she problem. Misha ja nadejus' ti
dostojino otvetish etoi amerikanskoi gnide chto mi Russkie dumaem po
etomu povodu?
ruskgb
What's wrong may be with Russians who want preserve their identities
in hostile environments? I guess nothing. Except of course those
idiots who doubt it.
Snuffy Smith
"ruskgb" <rus...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:9b7d09d1.03101...@posting.google.com...
You sound like Susan Cohen.
Snuffy Smith
Stupid people all over the world need someone to look up to.
Thanks go out to ruskgb for taking it upon himself to fulfill this vital
role.
captain!
ruskgb is interested in preserving his identity. fortunately for him, there
will always be plenty of toilets that need cleaning.
Anton Chernykh
At 19.10.2003 23:34:43 I've decided to send you a message.
RJL> Egor Bolonev wrote:
>> yp11 wrote:
>>> I urj...@bellsouth.net wrote:
>>
>>>> Well I hadn't really expected them to defend it.
>>>> They probably fully agree with the spirit and see nothing in it that
>>>> needs defending. :(. That is my reading of their psyche.
>>>> But anyway, what does it have to do with democracy or a democratic
>>>> society?
>>>
>>> .................................
>>> In fact the EU documents are presently being translated in some 15 languages
>>> and this will soon increase with the addition of new members.
>>> That is what I meant by "democratic society".
>>
>> EU has much more langs, and it's impossible to support all of them(max 3).
>> Ukraine has many russian citizens, so it's a good idea to support them.
>>
RJL> Yuri wrote that the EU documents are being translated into 15
RJL> languages. But you claim this is impossible ?
RJL> Why are there so many russian citizens in Ukraine?
RJL> *Pochemu tak mnogo russkih grazhdaninov v Ukraini? *
RJL> Do russians in the USA stay russian citizens?
RJL> Why is it a good idea to support russian citizens in Ukraine ?
RJL> Why should it be a good idea to support russians in Ukraine?
RJL> --
RJL> Rostyk
Have you ever been in the southern,central or eastern Ukrainian cities?
It's some type of wonder if somebody speaks Ukrainian on the streets.
Only the official documents contain Ukrainian language.
Even the advertisements are Russian.
Everyobody speaks Russian. Everyone.
I don't think it's good, if everyone speaks their native language
(RUSSIAN I MEAN), but it's disallowed to use it in their commont life.
By the way, the southern oblasts have been conquered and inhabited by the
Russian Empire and the Russian Military Forces.
What should I say else?
--
Honoured to be your obidient servant, with sincere respect and perfect fidelity
Anton
Ukraine, Nikolaev
chernykh-dot-mksat-dot-net
Egor Bolonev
Snuffy Smith
"captain!" <SpamI...@here.now> wrote in message
Then for him, getting a job cleaning the public toilets in Russia would be a
real sweet deal...job security. The only thing he's afraid of is that the
toilet seat might fall onto his head while he's getting a drink.