Sam Varshavchik joins Jews for Jesus
Sam
I've joined Jews for Jesus. I no longer consider myself a Jew. I was very
ashamed of being Jew when I was growing up in Odessa, Ukraine. Now I've washed
off my Jewishness with the Holy Water. I am a prod anti-Semitic Jew-hater.
Hitler was right!
---Semyon Varshavchik
Double Precision, Inc.
PO Box 668
Greenwood Lake, NY 10925
(500) 447 3696
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Ken Miller
And you're also an asshole,,,,, so why broadcast it on the net??
Henrietta Thomas
In soc.culture.russian on Sun, 29 Mar 1998 14:10:52 GMT, k...@pipeline.com
(Ken Miller) wrote:
>And you're also an asshole,,,,, so why broadcast it on the net??
It's a troll, Mr. Miller. It's a troll.
Followups to poster to end this thread.
My apologies to soc.culture.jewish.
Henrietta Thomas
h...@wwa.com
-------------------------------------------------
>"Sam" <sam...@dpinc.ml.morgue> wrote:
[offensive stuff snipped]
Shalom Farber
If you are no longer a Jew then you CANNOT be A Jew for Jesus. You are
simp[ly a Christian. If you hate the Jewsa as much as you say then are also
not a good Christian. Good Christians are not supposed to hate anyone.
The holy water is wasted on you. Go back to Odessa.
Sam <sam...@dpinc.ml.morgue> wrote in article
<67547...@examiner.concentric.net>...
Eugenius
Once upon a time "Shalom Farber" <shl...@iafrica.com> wrote:
>If you are no longer a Jew then you CANNOT be A Jew for Jesus. You are
>simp[ly a Christian. If you hate the Jewsa as much as you say then are also
>not a good Christian. Good Christians are not supposed to hate anyone.
>The holy water is wasted on you. Go back to Odessa.
No thanx, we don't need him in Ukraine as well.
>Sam <sam...@dpinc.ml.morgue> wrote:
>> I've joined Jews for Jesus. I no longer consider myself a Jew. I was
>> very ashamed of being Jew when I was growing up in Odessa, Ukraine.
>> Now I've washed
============================
Eugenius
UKRAINE: the Homeland Page
http://www.wu-wien.ac.at/groups/ukraine_hp
Ukrayins'ka Ideya page (in Ukrainian)
http://www.wu-wien.ac.at/groups/ukraine_hp/idea
Download Area
http://www.wu-wien.ac.at/groups/ukraine_hp/download
____________________________________________________
Information Security
Because Vulis lives for stupid people
who will quote and rebroadcast his entire
article, like you just did.
---guy
Lyle Rooff
Eugenius wrote in message <6fm8h1$i...@cantine.wu-wien.ac.at>...
>Once upon a time "Shalom Farber" <shl...@iafrica.com> wrote:
>
>>>>The holy water is wasted on you. Go back to Odessa.
>
>No thanx, we don't need him in Ukraine as well.
>
Perhaps we might all banish him to alt.troll or alt.wacko? ;-)
Eliyahu Rooff
Grigori Khaskin
Sam (sam...@dpinc.ml.morgue) wrote:
: I've joined Jews for Jesus. I no longer consider myself a Jew. I was very
: ashamed of being Jew when I was growing up in Odessa, Ukraine. Now I've washed
: Hitler was right!
I do not know who the hell is Sam, but for sure he is having and will have
a gooood time in the company of other self-hating J*WS who post there -
Two of them as stupid as he, cause do not even changed their names from
Michael and Daniel - Michael Horowitz (natio...@juno.com) and Daniel
Lichtenshtein (Dan Leonik, dle...@accesscomm.net).
They will have a good time praying to deceased J*W and his J*ISH gang in
chirch, than beer together with other not soooo educated chirchgoers,
pseudo-aryan J*WS - - Bzdiuk Tavishman (doc_t...@bigfoot.com),
Mr.Hirshman (HerrMann, our...@hotmail.com), Roger (Lying) Alexandrovitch
(rla...@worldnet.att.net) East-European con-artist Wasserman (Vincent at
CyberGate, patriot...@usa.net) and weeped because of luck of
funds under the picture of kept in KGB archives and now on sale - lower
jaw and boolet pierced part of Temple belonged to their suicidal pederastic
master Shicklegruber.
What a guys!
G.K.
Amazon
Sam wrote:
>
> I've joined Jews for Jesus. I no longer consider myself a Jew. I was > very ashamed of being Jew when I was growing up in Odessa, Ukraine.
That is strange as there are many Jews in Odesa and even the mayor of
Odesa is a Jew today in free Ukraine.
> Now I've washed
> off my Jewishness with the Holy Water. I am a prod anti-Semitic > Jew-hater.
I believe that you are a liar as I am very familiar with Jews for Jesus
and they are a very honorable Messianic Jewish organization which is
trying to reach out to the Jewish people with the message of the Saviour
Jesus Christ who is the One and Only Saviour of Mankind.
> Hitler was right!
You are very sick and your saying the above proves that you are neither
a Christian nor a member of Jews for Jesus.
> ---Semyon Varshavchik
> Double Precision, Inc.
> PO Box 668
> Greenwood Lake, NY 10925
> (500) 447 3696
Dan K.
Don Stockman
In nyc.general Amazon <ama...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> I believe that you are a liar as I am very familiar with Jews for Jesus
> and they are a very honorable Messianic Jewish organization which is
> trying to reach out to the Jewish people with the message of the Saviour
> Jesus Christ who is the One and Only Saviour of Mankind.
There are many things that can be said about Jews for Jesus, but
"honorable" is about the very last adjective I would think should apply.
Jews for Jesus attempts to lure young adults on college campuses
who have had poor Jewish educations into their so-called "Jewish"
services, and then slam them with the Jesus crap.
Soviet emigres are especially easy pickings. At least the standard
Christian religions are more "honorable" since they do not hide their
intentions, or attempt specifically to prey on these young adults.
Amazon
Don Stockman wrote:
>
> In nyc.general Amazon <ama...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> > I believe that you are a liar as I am very familiar with Jews for Jesus
> > and they are a very honorable Messianic Jewish organization which is
> > trying to reach out to the Jewish people with the message of the Saviour
> > Jesus Christ who is the One and Only Saviour of Mankind.
>
> There are many things that can be said about Jews for Jesus, but
> "honorable" is about the very last adjective I would think should apply.
Everyone is entitled to his/her opinion, but not every opinion is
based on rational facts.
> Jews for Jesus attempts to lure young adults on college > campuses
> who have had poor Jewish educations into their so-called "Jewish"
> services, and then slam them with the Jesus crap.
What you call "Jesus crap" is what the soviets tried to destroy
in their former Evil Empire, but the Lord Jesus Christ prevailed
and He brought that Evil Empire down and the whole world to this
day has still not been able to comprehend it because they refuse
to see that God is real and does intervene in the affairs of man.
Today the Gospel is once again preached throughout the former
Evil Empire and all of its liberated former colonies.
And Jesus Christ is still Lord!
And the BEST is yet to come!!!
> Soviet emigres are especially easy pickings. At least the standard
> Christian religions are more "honorable" since they do not hide their
> intentions, or attempt specifically to prey on these young adults.
AFAIK, J4J do not try to hide anything, they openly preach the Gospel of
Jesus Christ and do not try to win "converts" for themselves, but for
the whole Christian Church. AFAIK, they are a missionary organization
and are not a denomination, they encourage people to go to any sound
Christian Church of their choice.
Dan K.
Don Stockman
In nyc.general Amazon <ama...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > There are many things that can be said about Jews for Jesus, but
> > "honorable" is about the very last adjective I would think should apply.
> Everyone is entitled to his/her opinion, but not every opinion is
> based on rational facts.
Mine is based on personal experience, on seeing new Jewish Russian
immigrants whose heritage has been stolen from them by these bloodsuckers.
It's based on seeing advertisings for "Passover Seders" in Russian
neighborhoods, by J4J vermin who pretend that they are holding an open
Passover Seder, but it is, in reality, a front to lure these Jews in.
> > Jews for Jesus attempts to lure young adults on college > campuses
> > who have had poor Jewish educations into their so-called "Jewish"
> > services, and then slam them with the Jesus crap.
> What you call "Jesus crap" is what the soviets tried to destroy
> in their former Evil Empire, but the Lord Jesus Christ prevailed
> and He brought that Evil Empire down and the whole world to this
The Soviets tried to destroy all religions, but that gives your
Jesus followers no special right to prey on others, by falsely pretending
to be something else. Have at least the honesty of standard Christian
missionaries, who do not hide the coattails of their so-called God.
> > Soviet emigres are especially easy pickings. At least the standard
> > Christian religions are more "honorable" since they do not hide their
> > intentions, or attempt specifically to prey on these young adults.
> AFAIK, J4J do not try to hide anything, they openly preach the Gospel of
> Jesus Christ and do not try to win "converts" for themselves, but for
> the whole Christian Church. AFAIK, they are a missionary organization
> and are not a denomination, they encourage people to go to any sound
> Christian Church of their choice.
Hang around a college campus sometime and see for yourself. That
is, of course, if you are not one of them yourself doing the J4J thing.
Amazon
Don Stockman wrote:
>
> In nyc.general Amazon <ama...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> > > There are many things that can be said about Jews for Jesus, but
> > > "honorable" is about the very last adjective I would think should apply.
>
> > Everyone is entitled to his/her opinion, but not every opinion is
> > based on rational facts.
>
> Mine is based on personal experience, on seeing new Jewish Russian
> immigrants whose heritage has been stolen from them by these bloodsuckers.
You mean the Soviet Russians did not steal the Russian Jews
Jewish heritage?
> It's based on seeing advertisings for "Passover Seders" in Russian
> neighborhoods, by J4J vermin who pretend that they are holding an open
> Passover Seder, but it is, in reality, a front to lure these Jews in.
Why don't you go and visit this Passover Seder and find out what they
will be doing and saying before making a judgement. You might find out
that Jesus Christ is the Passover lamb.
> > > Jews for Jesus attempts to lure young adults on college > campuses
> > > who have had poor Jewish educations into their so-called "Jewish"
> > > services, and then slam them with the Jesus crap.
>
> > What you call "Jesus crap" is what the soviets tried to destroy
> > in their former Evil Empire, but the Lord Jesus Christ prevailed
> > and He brought that Evil Empire down and the whole world to this
>
> The Soviets tried to destroy all religions, but that gives your
> Jesus followers no special right to prey on others,
What you call "preying" is not preying at all, but witnessing to their
Jewish brethren that Jesus Christ is the Jewish Messiah and the true
Passover lamb. Remember, Jesus came as a Jew to the Jews first and to
the Gentiles also, but when a person whether he be Jew or Gentile
receives Christ and becomes a Christian, then in Christ he becomes a new
Creation, a son of God in Christ. That is the meaning of being born
again as symbolized by baptism. BTW, after Christ came, the *Chosen
People* are those who have received Christ as their Saviour and Messiah,
a Jew who refuses to accept Christ is no more than a Gentile and is not
a member of the Chosen People.
> by falsely pretending to be something else.
Every time I have seen the Jews for Jesus, they very clearly broadcast
that they are Jews for Jesus and do not try to hide that fact. AFAIK
they clearly tell Jews that Jesus is the Messiah of the Jews and that
Jews need to accept Him for their Salvation.
He is risen, He is not dead.
> Have at least the honesty of standard Christian
> missionaries, who do not hide the coattails of their so-called God.
AFAIK the J4J do honestly winess their faith in Jesus as the Messiah of
the Jews, just as the Apostle Paul, Peter, Andrew and all the rest of
the Apostles and disciples did.
If you think about it, *all the first Christians were Jews*.
> > > Soviet emigres are especially easy pickings. At least the standard
> > > Christian religions are more "honorable" since they do not hide their
> > > intentions, or attempt specifically to prey on these young adults.
>
> > AFAIK, J4J do not try to hide anything, they openly preach the Gospel of
> > Jesus Christ and do not try to win "converts" for themselves, but for
> > the whole Christian Church. AFAIK, they are a missionary organization
> > and are not a denomination, they encourage people to go to any sound
> > Christian Church of their choice.
> Hang around a college campus sometime and see for yourself. That
> is, of course, if you are not one of them yourself doing the J4J > thing.
If what you mean by the "J4J thing" the witnessing to Jewish people
about Jesus Christ, the Messiah of Jews and Gentiles, then they are
doing what God called them to do IMHO.
Dan K.
karen hohne
Amazon wrote:
***
> What you call "preying" is not preying at all, but witnessing to their
> Jewish brethren that Jesus Christ is the Jewish Messiah and the true
> Passover lamb. Remember, Jesus came as a Jew to the Jews first and to
> the Gentiles also, but when a person whether he be Jew or Gentile
> receives Christ and becomes a Christian, then in Christ he becomes a new
> Creation, a son of God in Christ. That is the meaning of being born
> again as symbolized by baptism. BTW, after Christ came, the *Chosen
> People* are those who have received Christ as their Saviour and Messiah,
> a Jew who refuses to accept Christ is no more than a Gentile and is not
> a member of the Chosen People.
>
Guess what? This is a Jewish Newsgroup, not a Xtian one. Get out.
Karen H.
Henrietta Thomas
[newsgroups trimmed]
In soc.culture.russian on Sat, 04 Apr 1998 07:03:54 -0500, karen hohne
<kho...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>Amazon wrote:
>***
[Christian preaching deleted]
>Guess what? This is a Jewish Newsgroup, not a Xtian one. Get out.
The way to do that is to set followups on all anti-Jewish posts
away from soc.culture.jewish.
Better yet, do not respond at all to any anti-Jewish stuff. They are
all trolls designed to get a negative reaction from you.
Followups set to poster to end this thread.
Henrietta Thomas
Chicago, Illinois
h...@wwa.com
schier
Sam wrote:
> I've joined Jews for Jesus. I no longer consider myself a Jew. I was very
> ashamed of being Jew when I was growing up in Odessa, Ukraine. Now I've washed
> off my Jewishness with the Holy Water. I am a prod anti-Semitic Jew-hater.
>
> Hitler was right!
>
> ---Semyon Varshavchik
Check the NutScum site for more info regarding this loser
Yitzchak
> Double Precision, Inc.
> PO Box 668
> Greenwood Lake, NY 10925
> (500) 447 3696
>
Susan Cohen
Amazon wrote:
> AFAIK, J4J do not try to hide anything, they openly preach the Gospel of
> Jesus Christ and do not try to win "converts" for themselves, but for
> the whole Christian Church. AFAIK, they are a missionary organization
> and are not a denomination, they encourage people to go to any sound
> Christian Church of their choice.
You are sadly mistaken. They pretend to be the true Jews, that in order to be
completely Jewish one must worship Jesus, that Jesus was the Messiah accoridng
to Jewish tradition - none of which is true. They target the ignorant, &
especially ignorant Jews.
Susan
Susan Cohen
Amazon wrote:
> Don Stockman wrote:
> >
> > In nyc.general Amazon <ama...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >
> > > > There are many things that can be said about Jews for Jesus, but
> > > > "honorable" is about the very last adjective I would think should apply.
> >
> > > Everyone is entitled to his/her opinion, but not every opinion is
> > > based on rational facts.
> >
> > Mine is based on personal experience, on seeing new Jewish Russian
> > immigrants whose heritage has been stolen from them by these bloodsuckers.
>
> You mean the Soviet Russians did not steal the Russian Jews
> Jewish heritage?
You snipped where he said they had tried to destroy all religions.
In fact, he said:
The Soviets tried to destroy all religions, but that gives your
Jesus followers no special right to prey on others, by falsely pretending
to be something else. Have at least the honesty of standard Christian
missionaries, who do not hide the coattails of their so-called God.
> > It's based on seeing advertisings for "Passover Seders" in Russian
> > neighborhoods, by J4J vermin who pretend that they are holding an open
> > Passover Seder, but it is, in reality, a front to lure these Jews in.
>
> Why don't you go and visit this Passover Seder and find out what they
> will be doing and saying before making a judgement.
Because Jews are not allowed to go to religious services of other religions.
> You might find out
> that Jesus Christ is the Passover lamb.
Except that we already know that this is not so, that a human being is not an
acceptable sacrifice.
> > > > Jews for Jesus attempts to lure young adults on college > campuses
> > > > who have had poor Jewish educations into their so-called "Jewish"
> > > > services, and then slam them with the Jesus crap.
> >
> > > What you call "Jesus crap" is what the soviets tried to destroy
> > > in their former Evil Empire, but the Lord Jesus Christ prevailed
> > > and He brought that Evil Empire down and the whole world to this
> >
> > The Soviets tried to destroy all religions, but that gives your
> > Jesus followers no special right to prey on others,
>
> What you call "preying" is not preying at all, but witnessing to their
> Jewish brethren that Jesus Christ is the Jewish Messiah and the true
> Passover lamb.
And what you call "witnessing" everyone else calls "proselytizing" or "preying."
> Remember, Jesus came as a Jew to the Jews first and to
> the Gentiles also, but when a person whether he be Jew or Gentile
> receives Christ and becomes a Christian, then in Christ he becomes a new
> Creation, a son of God in Christ.
The worst part about you people is your arrogance. We have just as much right to
believe that "Once a Jew, Always a Jew," & that any deviant beliefs to this notion
are unimportant.
> That is the meaning of being born
> again as symbolized by baptism.
Something else you tried to co-opt from us - the mikveh.
> BTW, after Christ came, the *Chosen
> People* are those who have received Christ as their Saviour and Messiah,
> a Jew who refuses to accept Christ is no more than a Gentile and is not
> a member of the Chosen People.
I'm sure you wish this, but this is not so, either. It only proves your jealousy &
wanting to co-opt our religoin for yourself.
> > by falsely pretending to be something else.
>
> Every time I have seen the Jews for Jesus, they very clearly broadcast
> that they are Jews for Jesus and do not try to hide that fact. AFAIK
> they clearly tell Jews that Jesus is the Messiah of the Jews and that
> Jews need to accept Him for their Salvation.
> He is risen, He is not dead.
As I have said before, they pretend that Jesus is a loigcal choice for Jews,when it
isn't so. Anyone who says so has no knowledge of Judaism whatsover. That's how they
get their "converts."
> > Have at least the honesty of standard Christian
> > missionaries, who do not hide the coattails of their so-called God.
>
> AFAIK the J4J do honestly winess their faith in Jesus as the Messiah of
> the Jews, just as the Apostle Paul, Peter, Andrew and all the rest of
> the Apostles and disciples did.
> If you think about it, *all the first Christians were Jews*.
So? You're not proving anything, except that the first Christians were heretcs &/or
apostates (whichever).
> > > > Soviet emigres are especially easy pickings. At least the standard
> > > > Christian religions are more "honorable" since they do not hide their
> > > > intentions, or attempt specifically to prey on these young adults.
> >
> > > AFAIK, J4J do not try to hide anything, they openly preach the Gospel of
> > > Jesus Christ and do not try to win "converts" for themselves, but for
> > > the whole Christian Church. AFAIK, they are a missionary organization
> > > and are not a denomination, they encourage people to go to any sound
> > > Christian Church of their choice.
>
> > Hang around a college campus sometime and see for yourself. That
> > is, of course, if you are not one of them yourself doing the J4J > thing.
>
> If what you mean by the "J4J thing" the witnessing to Jewish people
> about Jesus Christ, the Messiah of Jews and Gentiles, then they are
> doing what God called them to do IMHO.
If you mean by "witnessing" that they're trying to get Jews to believe in Jesus,
then they are lying & spreading disinformation on what Judaism is.
Susan
PG
You are just a moron. Y'haven't been a Jew neither in Ukraine, nor here in
USA. You just took opportuninty using help of Jewish people of USA to
emmigrate out of poor Ukraine. But remember, creature, you are not even
antisemite, I doubt if you know what it is at all.
Koziol ty voniuchuij.
schier wrote in message <35287B07...@cityline.ru>...
Amazon
Susan Cohen wrote:
>
> Amazon wrote:
>
> > AFAIK, J4J do not try to hide anything, they openly preach the Gospel of
> > Jesus Christ and do not try to win "converts" for themselves, but for
> > the whole Christian Church. AFAIK, they are a missionary organization
> > and are not a denomination, they encourage people to go to any sound
> > Christian Church of their choice.
>
> completely Jewish one must worship Jesus, that Jesus was the Messiah accoridng
> to Jewish tradition - none of which is true.
Actually in the Christian Scriptures it says that After Jesus
the Messiah came, only those who received and accepted Him,
ie.Christians, are the true Jews.
> They target the ignorant, & especially ignorant Jews.
I guess that they see you in a similar way, although they do
not hate Jews but want to see them get saved by receiving
Jesus as their Messiah and Saviour. What is different about
Jesus from all the other prophets in the Jewish Scriptures, is
that Jesus is the One about whom they all prophesied and He proved
who He was by rising from the dead as prophesied by Isaiah, David
and many other prophets. On Sunday we who believe in Jesus will once
again be celebrating His glorious Resurrection which is our hope.
The fact that Israel is once again a nation is proof to those
Christians who understand the Bible that Jesus Christ is soon going
to return to the Earth as the King of King and Lord of Lords and to
complete the prophecies of the Prophets concerning Him like bringing
peace to the Earth and teaching nations to live in peace and not make
war anymore.
>
> Susan
Dan K.
Amazon
Susan Cohen wrote:
>
> Amazon wrote:
>
> > Don Stockman wrote:
> > >
> > > In nyc.general Amazon <ama...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > >
> > > > > There are many things that can be said about Jews for Jesus, but
> > > > > "honorable" is about the very last adjective I would think should apply.
> > >
> > > > Everyone is entitled to his/her opinion, but not every opinion is
> > > > based on rational facts.
> > >
> > > Mine is based on personal experience, on seeing new Jewish Russian
> > > immigrants whose heritage has been stolen from them by these bloodsuckers.
> >
> > You mean the Soviet Russians did not steal the Russian Jews
> > Jewish heritage?
>
> You snipped where he said they had tried to destroy all religions.
>
> In fact, he said:
>
> The Soviets tried to destroy all religions, but that gives your
> Jesus followers no special right to prey on others, by falsely pretending
> to be something else. Have at least the honesty of standard Christian
> missionaries, who do not hide the coattails of their so-called God.
I am not aware that they do that. AFAIK, they consider themselves
to be fulfilled Jews, ie. Jews who have accepted Jesus as their
Messiah, just as the first early Christians did.
> > > It's based on seeing advertisings for "Passover Seders" in Russian
> > > neighborhoods, by J4J vermin who pretend that they are holding an open
> > > Passover Seder, but it is, in reality, a front to lure these Jews in.
> >
> > Why don't you go and visit this Passover Seder and find out what they
> > will be doing and saying before making a judgement.
> Because Jews are not allowed to go to religious services of other > religions.
I've never been to a Jewish Passover Seder, but Jesus was a practicing
Jew as were His disciples, so maybe the J4J also practice the
traditional Passover Seder, after all, the Passover is the rememberence
of last supper which the Jews had before they left Egypt, is it not?
So as Jews maybe the J4J celebrate the Passover as do other Jews?
> > You might find out
> > that Jesus Christ is the Passover lamb.
> Except that we already know that this is not so, that a human being is > not an acceptable sacrifice.
Here is what the Prophet Isaiah wrote:
Isaiah 53:1-12
Who has believed our message?
And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
[2] For He grew up before Him like a tender shoot,
And like a root out of parched ground;
He has no stately form or majesty
That we should look upon Him,
Nor appearance that we should be attracted to Him.
[3] He was despised and forsaken of men,
A man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief;
And like one from whom men hide their face,
He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.
[4] Surely our griefs He Himself bore,
And our sorrows He carried;
Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten of God, and afflicted.
[5] But He was pierced through for our transgressions,
He was crushed for our iniquities;
The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him,
And by His scourging we are healed.
[6] All of us like sheep have gone astray,
Each of us has turned to his own way;
But the Lord has caused the iniquity of us all
To fall on Him.
[7] He was oppressed and He was afflicted,
Yet He did not open His mouth;
Like a lamb that is led to slaughter,
And like a sheep that is silent before its shearers,
So He did not open His mouth.
[8] By oppression and judgment He was taken away;
And as for His generation, who considered
That He was cut off out of the land of the living,
For the transgression of my people to whom the stroke was due?
[9] His grave was assigned with wicked men,
Yet He was with a rich man in His death,
Because He had done no violence,
Nor was there any deceit in His mouth.
[10] But the Lord was pleased
To crush Him, putting Him to grief;
If He would render Himself as a guilt offering,
He will see His offspring,
He will prolong His days,
And the good pleasure of the Lord will prosper in His hand.
[11] As a result of the anguish of His soul,
He will see it and be satisfied;
By His knowledge the Righteous One,
My Servant, will justify the many,
As He will bear their iniquities.
[12] Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great,
And He will divide the booty with the strong;
Because He poured out Himself to death,
And was numbered with the transgressors;
Yet He Himself bore the sin of many,
And interceded for the transgressors.
So you see, the Messiah was a sin or guilt offering according to
the Prophet Isaiah
>
> > > > > Jews for Jesus attempts to lure young adults on college > campuses
> > > > > who have had poor Jewish educations into their so-called "Jewish"
> > > > > services, and then slam them with the Jesus crap.
> > >
> > > > What you call "Jesus crap" is what the soviets tried to destroy
> > > > in their former Evil Empire, but the Lord Jesus Christ prevailed
> > > > and He brought that Evil Empire down and the whole world to this
> > >
> > > The Soviets tried to destroy all religions, but that gives your
> > > Jesus followers no special right to prey on others,
> >
> > What you call "preying" is not preying at all, but witnessing to their
> > Jewish brethren that Jesus Christ is the Jewish Messiah and the true
> > Passover lamb.
> And what you call "witnessing" everyone else calls "proselytizing" or > "preying."
Proselytizing yes, "preying" no.
Christians are commanded by God to preach, but never to force
people to accept the truth.
> > Remember, Jesus came as a Jew to the Jews first and to
> > the Gentiles also, but when a person whether he be Jew or Gentile
> > receives Christ and becomes a Christian, then in Christ he becomes a new
> > Creation, a son of God in Christ.
> The worst part about you people is your arrogance. We have just as > much right to
> believe that "Once a Jew, Always a Jew," & that any deviant beliefs to > this notion are unimportant.
But that is exactly what the J4J are saying, that one can be
a Jew indeed one becomes fulfilled as a Jew when one receives
the Messiah. It is not throwing away your Jewishness, but becoming
whole as a Jew, by receiving the One who was prophecied to come
by all of the Hebrew prophets including Moses.
> > That is the meaning of being born
> > again as symbolized by baptism.
> Something else you tried to co-opt from us - the mikveh.
Not co-opt, but given by God as a sign of repentence and new
birth. After all, Christianity is Jewish because God sent
the Messiah to be a Jew. When God called Abraham the whole
world had already departed from God and God rather than destroying
the Earth again chose to try and reconcile humanity back to Himself
through Abraham and eventually the Messiah who was to be of his
earthly seed.
> > BTW, after Christ came, the *Chosen
> > People* are those who have received Christ as their Saviour and Messiah,
> > a Jew who refuses to accept Christ is no more than a Gentile and is not
> > a member of the Chosen People.
> I'm sure you wish this, but this is not so, either. It only proves your jealousy &
> wanting to co-opt our religoin for yourself.
Don't forget as I said above, Jesus came first to the Jews
and also to all nations through the preaching of the good news
about Him and His resurrection. It is only because Jesus is really
alive that people can meet Him and know Him through the Spirit of God,
the same Spirit that worked through the ancient prophets of Israel.
> > > by falsely pretending to be something else.
> >
> > Every time I have seen the Jews for Jesus, they very clearly broadcast
> > that they are Jews for Jesus and do not try to hide that fact. AFAIK
> > they clearly tell Jews that Jesus is the Messiah of the Jews and that
> > Jews need to accept Him for their Salvation.
> > He is risen, He is not dead.
> As I have said before, they pretend that Jesus is a loigcal choice for Jews,when it
> isn't so.
If you read the Jewish Scriptures you may be convinced otherwise if
you ask the Living God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob to reveal to you
the truth about Jesus, if He is indeed the Messiah.
> Anyone who says so has no knowledge of Judaism whatsover. That's how
> they get their "converts."
That is not the record of J4J, many J4J are very knowledgable Jews who
received revelation from God that Jesus is indeed the Messiah. It would
be wrong to tell someone to believe just because they say so. Belief
only comes by personal revelation from God, neither I nor any J4J can
convince you that Jesus is the Messiah, but if you ask God to show you
the truth about Jesus in all honesty and sincerity, I am 100% convinced
that He will.
> > > Have at least the honesty of standard Christian
> > > missionaries, who do not hide the coattails of their so-called God.
> >
> > AFAIK the J4J do honestly winess their faith in Jesus as the Messiah of
> > the Jews, just as the Apostle Paul, Peter, Andrew and all the rest of
> > the Apostles and disciples did.
> > If you think about it, *all the first Christians were Jews*.
> So? You're not proving anything, except that the first Christians were heretcs &/or
> apostates (whichever).
Or they were Jews who really saw Jesus after His resurrection from the
dead and after being filled with the Holy Spirit and Divine Power
preached the good news about Jesus throughout the then known world
despite severe persecution and even death.
>
> > > > > Soviet emigres are especially easy pickings. At least the standard
> > > > > Christian religions are more "honorable" since they do not hide their
> > > > > intentions, or attempt specifically to prey on these young adults.
> > >
> > > > AFAIK, J4J do not try to hide anything, they openly preach the Gospel of
> > > > Jesus Christ and do not try to win "converts" for themselves, but for
> > > > the whole Christian Church. AFAIK, they are a missionary organization
> > > > and are not a denomination, they encourage people to go to any sound
> > > > Christian Church of their choice.
> >
> > > Hang around a college campus sometime and see for yourself. That
> > > is, of course, if you are not one of them yourself doing the J4J > thing.
> >
> > If what you mean by the "J4J thing" the witnessing to Jewish people
> > about Jesus Christ, the Messiah of Jews and Gentiles, then they are
> > doing what God called them to do IMHO.
>
> If you mean by "witnessing" that they're trying to get Jews to believe in Jesus,
> then they are lying & spreading disinformation on what Judaism is.
Or Jesus is the Messiah promised by Biblical Judaism who came to
institute the New Covenant which promises not only Eternal Life, but
also redemption from sin. I'm sure that you are aware that *every Jew*
is living with his sins because the Temple was destroyed and there are
no sin offerings possible as required by the Laws of Moses. The whole
nation of Israel is living in their sins according to their own God
given Laws. The prophet Daniel and Jesus tell us that the Jews will
rebuild the Temple and at that time Jesus will return, but not until
after the Temple is once again desecrated and the "man of sin is
revealed" whom Jesus will destroy. See Daniel chapter 9.
> Susan
Dan K.
Don Stockman
In nyc.general Amazon <ama...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > > What you call "preying" is not preying at all, but witnessing to their
> > > Jewish brethren that Jesus Christ is the Jewish Messiah and the true
> > > Passover lamb.
They can practice any religion they want. They can believe that
the Emperor Dune is God if they feel like it. And, they can practice their
own religion of Christianity. Which is what people who follow Jesus are
doing.
But these slimy people do not do that. They avoid mention of Jesus
in early stages, because they know that even Jews who have little
knowledge know that Jesus is not for Jews. But then, only much later, when
they are enveloped in cult-like suffocation, do they start slipping in
mention of the Jesus crap.
Complete dishonesty.
Mark Borok
In article <6gi9t8$b...@news-central.tiac.net>, Don Stockman
<ds...@shell1.tiac.net> wrote:
I am sure you speak from personal experience. However, all of the J4J
literature I've seen has been up-front in declaring Christ to be the
Messiah (including a semi-cute pamphlet in which Bart Simpson (?) says
"Don't have a cow just because we're telling you that Jesus is the
Messiah", or something like that).
IMO anyone who wants to proselytize among Jews has to take an approach
that allows Jews to keep their cultural identity and their status as the
chosen people.
--Mark
--
Mark Borok
"Restless Graphics"
Animation and multimedia design
http://www.mindspring.com/~mborok
Remove "spamless" from email address to respond
Charles Don Hall
In article <mborok-0904980927510001@pool-207-205-195-100_wlhm.grid.net>,
Mark Borok <mbo...@spamlessmindspring.com> wrote:
>In article <6gi9t8$b...@news-central.tiac.net>, Don Stockman
><ds...@shell1.tiac.net> wrote:
>> In nyc.general Amazon <ama...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>> But these slimy people do not do that. They avoid mention of Jesus
>> in early stages, because they know that even Jews who have little
>> knowledge know that Jesus is not for Jews. But then, only much later, when
>> they are enveloped in cult-like suffocation, do they start slipping in
>> mention of the Jesus crap.
>>
>> Complete dishonesty.
>
>I am sure you speak from personal experience. However, all of the J4J
>literature I've seen has been up-front in declaring Christ to be the
>Messiah (including a semi-cute pamphlet in which Bart Simpson (?) says
>"Don't have a cow just because we're telling you that Jesus is the
>Messiah", or something like that).
Huh? Why would Bart Simpson be a member of J4J? The Simpsons belong to
some generic Protestant denomination. This is just *wrong*.
Do you know who might make a good J4J spokeperson? Krusty the Klown:
TV Announcer: It's a Krusty Kinda Khristmas, brought to you by ILG: selling
your body's chemicals after you die. And by Li'l Sweetheart
Cupcakes -- a subsidiary of ILG.
Lisa: Hey, I thought Krusty was Jewish.
Bart: Christmas is a time when people of _all_ religions come together
to worship Jesus Christ.
---Episode 3F07, "Marge Be Not Proud"
Anyway, if anyone needs more advice on how to write effective religious
pamphlets, please let me know.
--
=================================================================
Charles Don Hall, Licensed Philosopher (ch...@eco.twg.com)
The Graduation Webpage: http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Ginza/4185
=================================================================
Amazon
Don Stockman wrote:
>
> In nyc.general Mark Borok <mbo...@spamlessmindspring.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > But these slimy people do not do that. They avoid mention of Jesus
> > > in early stages, because they know that even Jews who have little
> > > knowledge know that Jesus is not for Jews. But then, only much later, when
> > > they are enveloped in cult-like suffocation, do they start slipping in
> > > mention of the Jesus crap.
> > >
> > > Complete dishonesty.
>
> > I am sure you speak from personal experience. However, all of the J4J
> > literature I've seen has been up-front in declaring Christ to be the
> > Messiah (including a semi-cute pamphlet in which Bart Simpson (?) says
> > "Don't have a cow just because we're telling you that Jesus is the
> > Messiah", or something like that).
>
> like when school is out, to adults. But on campus, they hold "passover
> seders" and "friday night services" etc... with no mention of Jesus in the
> flyers.
Are you saying that just because the J4Js believe in Jesus that
they don't have the *right* to hold on to and celebrate Jewish
traditions?
Amazon
Don Stockman wrote:
> In nyc.general Amazon <ama...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > > > What you call "preying" is not preying at all, but witnessing to their
> > > > Jewish brethren that Jesus Christ is the Jewish Messiah and the true
> > > > Passover lamb.
>
> They can practice any religion they want. They can believe that
> the Emperor Dune is God if they feel like it. And, they can practice their
> own religion of Christianity. Which is what people who follow Jesus are
> doing.
>
> in early stages, because they know that even Jews who have little
> knowledge know that Jesus is not for Jews.
Isn't that being just a little prejudicial?
And isn't that prejudice based on a lack of knowledge of
*Jewish Biblical Scripture*?
> But then, only much later, when
> they are enveloped in cult-like suffocation,
I never knew the Jews for Jesus to be a cult
nor suffocating, can you please explain.
AFAIK, they are a Christian missionary group that is
focused on the Jewish people because they are Jews themselves
and want to dissolve the prejudice which many Jews harbor
about Jesus. AFAIk their aim is to show their Jewish "kin"
that Jesus is indeed the Messiah as shown in Jewish Biblical
Scripture.
> do they start slipping in mention of the Jesus crap.
Please read Isaiah chapter 53 and you will see that Jesus
did indeed fit into the description which the Propent Isaiah
painted of the Messiah.
> Complete dishonesty.
IMHO the J4Js are completely honest.
At least the ones that I have met.
Dan K.
Don Stockman
> > in early stages, because they know that even Jews who have little
> > they are enveloped in cult-like suffocation, do they start slipping in
> > mention of the Jesus crap.
> >
Don Stockman
In nyc.general Amazon <ama...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Are you saying that just because the J4Js believe in Jesus that
> they don't have the *right* to hold on to and celebrate Jewish
> traditions?
Sure they can. Also, vegetarians can hold on to their meat knives,
and go through the motions of cutting non-existent meat, and they can turn
on their ovens and roast a long piece of metal with nothing on it.
I'm sure that is very satisfying. However, Judaism and
Christianity are fundamentally different. Jews do the commandments that
God commanded, and wait (more or less) patiently for the Messiah.
Christians believe that someone who came 2000 years ago and died
without redeeming anyone, crying out to God for having abandoned him, was
not only the Messiah, but God.
That's a fundamental gap. And J4J make a mockery of both sets of
beliefs by attempting to combine the two (actually, they really don't.
They are Christians, but their dishonesty comes from pretending to be Jews
while embracing Christianity, all to lure unknowledgeable Jews).
Susan Cohen
Amazon wrote:
> Susan Cohen wrote:
> >
> > Amazon wrote:
> >
> > > AFAIK, J4J do not try to hide anything, they openly preach the Gospel of
> > > Jesus Christ and do not try to win "converts" for themselves, but for
> > > the whole Christian Church. AFAIK, they are a missionary organization
> > > and are not a denomination, they encourage people to go to any sound
> > > Christian Church of their choice.
> >
> > You are sadly mistaken. They pretend to be the true Jews, that in order to be
> > completely Jewish one must worship Jesus, that Jesus was the Messiah accoridng
> > to Jewish tradition - none of which is true.
>
> Actually in the Christian Scriptures it says that After Jesus
> the Messiah came, only those who received and accepted Him,
> ie.Christians, are the true Jews.
You're really dense, aren't you? I don't give a rat's assd what it says in Xtian
Scripture - go peddle your fish (pun intended) in the proper marketplace (another
pun intended, if you like!)
> > They target the ignorant, & especially ignorant Jews.
>
> I guess that they see you in a similar way, although they do
> not hate Jews but want to see them get saved by receiving
> Jesus as their Messiah and Saviour.
I know damned well they see me as ignorant. Which is why I order them off my porch
in no uncertain terms when they come around with their arrogant nonsense.
> What is different about
> Jesus from all the other prophets in the Jewish Scriptures, is
> that Jesus is the One about whom they all prophesied
Nope, not in the slightest. Xians just appropriated our writings & pretended they
were about hi. Since he fulfilled none of the requirements to have been Moshiach,
this statement of yours is ridiculous as best, & off-topic for soc.culture.jewish -
but you knew that already.
Susan Cohen
Mark Borok wrote:
> In article <6gi9t8$b...@news-central.tiac.net>, Don Stockman
> <ds...@shell1.tiac.net> wrote:
>
> > In nyc.general Amazon <ama...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >
> > > > > What you call "preying" is not preying at all, but witnessing to their
> > > > > Jewish brethren that Jesus Christ is the Jewish Messiah and the true
> > > > > Passover lamb.
> >
> > They can practice any religion they want. They can believe that
> > the Emperor Dune is God if they feel like it. And, they can practice their
> > own religion of Christianity. Which is what people who follow Jesus are
> > doing.
> >
> > But these slimy people do not do that. They avoid mention of Jesus
> > in early stages, because they know that even Jews who have little
> > knowledge know that Jesus is not for Jews. But then, only much later, when
> > they are enveloped in cult-like suffocation, do they start slipping in
> > mention of the Jesus crap.
> >
> > Complete dishonesty.
>
> I am sure you speak from personal experience. However, all of the J4J
> literature I've seen has been up-front in declaring Christ to be the
> Messiah (including a semi-cute pamphlet in which Bart Simpson (?) says
> "Don't have a cow just because we're telling you that Jesus is the
> Messiah", or something like that).
>
> IMO anyone who wants to proselytize among Jews has to take an approach
> that allows Jews to keep their cultural identity and their status as the
> chosen people.
The worst part about your statement is that you have no idea how silly you sound.
Susan Cohen
Amazon wrote:
> Don Stockman wrote:
> >
> > In nyc.general Mark Borok <mbo...@spamlessmindspring.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > But these slimy people do not do that. They avoid mention of Jesus
> > > > in early stages, because they know that even Jews who have little
> > > > knowledge know that Jesus is not for Jews. But then, only much later, when
> > > > they are enveloped in cult-like suffocation, do they start slipping in
> > > > mention of the Jesus crap.
> > > >
> > > > Complete dishonesty.
> >
> > > I am sure you speak from personal experience. However, all of the J4J
> > > literature I've seen has been up-front in declaring Christ to be the
> > > Messiah (including a semi-cute pamphlet in which Bart Simpson (?) says
> > > "Don't have a cow just because we're telling you that Jesus is the
> > > Messiah", or something like that).
> >
> > Correct. That's the stuff they spread in subways and buses and the
> > like when school is out, to adults. But on campus, they hold "passover
> > seders" and "friday night services" etc... with no mention of Jesus in the
> > flyers.
>
> Are you saying that just because the J4Js believe in Jesus that
> they don't have the *right* to hold on to and celebrate Jewish
> traditions?
Pretty much. When you opt into another religion, it's considered good manners (at
the very least) to stop practising the former one. Helps the angels with their
scorekeeping.
Susan Cohen
Amazon wrote:
> Don Stockman wrote:
>
> > In nyc.general Amazon <ama...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > What you call "preying" is not preying at all, but witnessing to their
> > > > > Jewish brethren that Jesus Christ is the Jewish Messiah and the true
> > > > > Passover lamb.
> >
> > They can practice any religion they want. They can believe that
> > the Emperor Dune is God if they feel like it. And, they can practice their
> > own religion of Christianity. Which is what people who follow Jesus are
> > doing.
> >
> > But these slimy people do not do that. They avoid mention of Jesus
> > in early stages, because they know that even Jews who have little
> > knowledge know that Jesus is not for Jews.
>
> Isn't that being just a little prejudicial?
Prejudicial? I'd say it's dishonest, rather than prejudicial. But the J4Js are
like that.
> And isn't that prejudice based on a lack of knowledge of
> *Jewish Biblical Scripture*?
Why, I believe you're getting it! The J4Js really don't know all that they should
about the Torah.
> > But then, only much later, when
> > they are enveloped in cult-like suffocation,
>
> I never knew the Jews for Jesus to be a cult
That's funny - professional deprogrammers do.
> AFAIK, they are a Christian missionary group that is
> focused on the Jewish people because they are Jews themselves
ROTFL! This isn't a Freudian slip - it's the whole Victoria Secret's Catalgoue!
> and want to dissolve the prejudice which many Jews harbor
> about Jesus.
What prejudice? You mean to say that "prejudice" consists of not worshipping
someone who we know - if he existed at all - was little more than an itinerant
rabbi? Gee, you're pretty hard-nosed, aren't you (as we;; as off-topic for
soc.culture.jewish - but you knew that before you posted)?
> AFAIk their aim is to show their Jewish "kin"
> that Jesus is indeed the Messiah as shown in Jewish Biblical
> Scripture.
Then they can save their schizoid breath, becasue you can't show what doesn't
exist.
> > do they start slipping in mention of the Jesus crap.
>
> Please read Isaiah chapter 53 and you will see that Jesus
> did indeed fit into the description which the Propent Isaiah
> painted of the Messiah.
I've read it. There's no mention of him whatsoever. But thanks for playing.
> > Complete dishonesty.
>
> IMHO the J4Js are completely honest.
> At least the ones that I have met.
I'm sure you think so. This entire posts displays your particular view of reality.
Too bad for you.
Captain
Susan Cohen wrote:
>
> Mark Borok wrote:
>
> > In article <6gi9t8$b...@news-central.tiac.net>, Don Stockman
> >
> > > In nyc.general Amazon <ama...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > >
> > > > > > What you call "preying" is not preying at all, but witnessing to their
> > > > > > Jewish brethren that Jesus Christ is the Jewish Messiah and the true
> > > > > > Passover lamb.
> > >
> > > They can practice any religion they want. They can believe that
> > > the Emperor Dune is God if they feel like it. And, they can practice their
> > > own religion of Christianity. Which is what people who follow Jesus are
> > > doing.
> > >
> > > But these slimy people do not do that. They avoid mention of Jesus
> > > in early stages, because they know that even Jews who have little
> > > they are enveloped in cult-like suffocation, do they start slipping in
> > > mention of the Jesus crap.
> > >
> >
> > I am sure you speak from personal experience. However, all of the J4J
> > literature I've seen has been up-front in declaring Christ to be the
> > Messiah (including a semi-cute pamphlet in which Bart Simpson (?) says
> > "Don't have a cow just because we're telling you that Jesus is the
> > Messiah", or something like that).
> >
> > that allows Jews to keep their cultural identity and their status as the
> > chosen people.
>
> The worst part about your statement is that you have no idea how silly you sound.
And your trying to reason with him?
Amazon
Susan Cohen wrote:
>
> Amazon wrote:
>
> > Don Stockman wrote:
> > >
> > > > >
> > > > > But these slimy people do not do that. They avoid mention of Jesus
> > > > > in early stages, because they know that even Jews who have little
> > > > > knowledge know that Jesus is not for Jews. But then, only much later, when
> > > > > they are enveloped in cult-like suffocation, do they start slipping in
> > > > > mention of the Jesus crap.
> > > > >
> > > > > Complete dishonesty.
> > >
> > > > I am sure you speak from personal experience. However, all of the J4J
> > > > literature I've seen has been up-front in declaring Christ to be the
> > > > Messiah (including a semi-cute pamphlet in which Bart Simpson (?) says
> > > > "Don't have a cow just because we're telling you that Jesus is the
> > > > Messiah", or something like that).
> > >
> > > like when school is out, to adults. But on campus, they hold "passover
> > > seders" and "friday night services" etc... with no mention of Jesus in the
> > > flyers.
> >
> > Are you saying that just because the J4Js believe in Jesus that
> > they don't have the *right* to hold on to and celebrate Jewish
> > traditions?
>
> Pretty much. When you opt into another religion, it's considered good manners (at
> the very least) to stop practising the former one. Helps the angels with their
> scorekeeping.
See how utterly ignorant you are Susan,
the Passover is *NOT* a religious holiday, it is
a commemorative holiday. It commemorates an event which
happened *BEFORE* there was a Jewish religion.
The Jews did not receive a religion until they went
into the wilderness *AFTER* the Passover.
Dan K.
BTW, Jesus celebrated the Passover and Christians have
the liberty to celebrate the Passover also if they so choose.
Christ set us free from religion according to the Jewish
Apostle Paul saying that we as Chritians are free to celebrate
those holidays which we choose. I know that may sound strange
to you until you reflect that God made religion for people and
not the other way around. Adam and Eve did not have a religion
they had a relationship with God and because of Christ we are
restored to that relationship. But it is up to each Christian
to develop that relationship. And as you know, the Jews are
cut off from a relationship with God because the Jews are living
in their sins because the Temple has been destroyed and there
is no way to get rid of your sins because sin offerings can NOT
be performed. Israel is cut off from God, and the Jews are no
longer the Chosen people. The Chosen people are those who have
accepted God's Messiah and Savior. As the Jewish Apostle Peter
wrote, the Christians are a new race, a royal priesthood, a new
nation. The Prophet Zechariah in his book says that the Jews
as a nation will not turn to Christ until they look at Him who
they had pierced and weep over Him as for an only son.
But individually many Jews are receiving Christ and so can you.
Mark Borok
In article <3532F8AD...@smart.net>, Susan Cohen <ze...@smart.net> wrote:
> Mark Borok wrote:
>
> > I am sure you speak from personal experience. However, all of the J4J
> > literature I've seen has been up-front in declaring Christ to be the
> > Messiah (including a semi-cute pamphlet in which Bart Simpson (?) says
> > "Don't have a cow just because we're telling you that Jesus is the
> > Messiah", or something like that).
> >
> > IMO anyone who wants to proselytize among Jews has to take an approach
> > that allows Jews to keep their cultural identity and their status as the
> > chosen people.
>
> The worst part about your statement is that you have no idea how silly
you sound.
Well, if I was a Christian trying to convert Jews that's how I would go
about it. The silliest thing about most Christian proselytizing is that it
seems to be based on the idea that everyone already believes as they do,
but is in denial. For example, their pamphlets assume that the reader is
worried about going to hell because of his/her sins, then reveal Christ in
all his majestic glory, etc. As if someone might know about hell or sin
without knowing anything about the concept of Christ.
Since Jewish identity is tied up closely with Jewish religion the only way
to persuade a Jew to convert would be to formulate a theology which would
allow the convert to retain the large body of beliefs. After all, the
first Christians were a Jewish sect who were admitted to the synagogue
with other Jews. All you would have to do is throw out the council of
Nicea and all the stuff about a trinity, create a Jew-friendly form of
Christianity and you have a chance. Otherwise, you are asking the
prospective convert to renounce not only a body of religious beliefs, but
an entire ethnic identity.
Amazon
Susan Cohen wrote:
>
> Amazon wrote:
>
> > Susan Cohen wrote:
> > >
> > > Amazon wrote:
> > >
> > > > Jesus Christ and do not try to win "converts" for themselves, but for
> > > > the whole Christian Church. AFAIK, they are a missionary organization
> > > > and are not a denomination, they encourage people to go to any sound
> > > > Christian Church of their choice.
> > >
> > > You are sadly mistaken. They pretend to be the true Jews, that in order to be
> > > completely Jewish one must worship Jesus, that Jesus was the Messiah accoridng
> > > to Jewish tradition - none of which is true.
> >
> > Actually in the Christian Scriptures it says that After Jesus
> > the Messiah came, only those who received and accepted Him,
> > ie.Christians, are the true Jews.
>
> You're really dense, aren't you? I don't give a rat's assd what it says in Xtian
> Scripture - go peddle your fish (pun intended) in the proper marketplace (another
> pun intended, if you like!)
I thought we were discussing the Jews for Jesus and what they
believe? Now why are you getting so vicious?
> > > They target the ignorant, & especially ignorant Jews.
> >
> > I guess that they see you in a similar way, although they do
> > not hate Jews but want to see them get saved by receiving
> > Jesus as their Messiah and Saviour.
>
> I know damned well they see me as ignorant. Which is why I order them off my porch
> in no uncertain terms when they come around with their arrogant nonsense.
And they should not come back to your porch IMHO,
but just shake the dust off their shoes against you
as the Scriptures tell us to do. It does not matter if
you claim to be Jewish, Buddist, Muslim, Hindu or whatever,
there is only One God and Only One Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ
who rose from the dead and whose resurrection we celebrated
around the world last Sunday. The Orthodox Christians will be
celebrating Easter next Sunday as they follow a different calendar.
> > What is different about
> > Jesus from all the other prophets in the Jewish Scriptures, is
> > that Jesus is the One about whom they all prophesied
>
> Nope, not in the slightest. Xians just appropriated our writings & pretended they
> were about hi.
It is not pretension. Just read it again, Isaiah wrote that the
Messiah must die for the sins of His people, the Jews first and also
all mankind who come to believe in Him. Read it again to your
own salvation. Isaiah wrote in the 53 chapter of his book:
Isaiah 53:1-12
Who has believed our message?
And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
[2] For He grew up before Him like a tender shoot,
And like a root out of parched ground;
He has no stately form or majesty
That we should look upon Him,
Nor appearance that we should be attracted to Him.
[3] He was despised and forsaken of men,
A man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief;
And like one from whom men hide their face,
He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.
Isn't this what you are doing Susan? Esteeming Him not
and despising Him?
[4] Surely our griefs He Himself bore,
And our sorrows He carried;
Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten of God, and afflicted.
[5] But He was pierced through for our transgressions,
He was crushed for our iniquities;
Doesn't this say that He was crushed for our sins?
The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him,
And by His scourging we are healed.
[6] All of us like sheep have gone astray,
Each of us has turned to his own way;
But the Lord has caused the iniquity of us all
To fall on Him.
Again it is repeated that He took our sins or iniquities,
does it not?
[7] He was oppressed and He was afflicted,
Yet He did not open His mouth;
Like a lamb that is led to slaughter,
And like a sheep that is silent before its shearers,
So He did not open His mouth.
[8] By oppression and judgment He was taken away;
And as for His generation, who considered
That He was cut off out of the land of the living,
Doesn't this tell you that He was killed? To be cut off from
the land of the living?
For the transgression of my people to whom the stroke was due?
You see, God's people the Jews deserved the stroke, but it fell on
Jesus.
[9] His grave was assigned with wicked men,
Doesn't this mean that He died, to be put in a grave?
Yet He was with a rich man in His death,
Doesn't this tell you that He died?
Because He had done no violence,
Nor was there any deceit in His mouth.
[10] But the Lord was pleased
To crush Him, putting Him to grief;
If He would render Himself as a guilt offering,
Doesn't this tell you that Jesus was a sin or guilt offering???
He will see His offspring,
He will prolong His days,
And the good pleasure of the Lord will prosper in His hand.
[11] As a result of the anguish of His soul,
He will see it and be satisfied;
By His knowledge the Righteous One,
My Servant, will justify the many,
As He will bear their iniquities.
[12] Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great,
And He will divide the booty with the strong;
Because He poured out Himself to death,
And was numbered with the transgressors;
*AND DOESN'T THIS TELL YOU THAT HE ROSE FROM THE GRAVE AND IS RISEN???*
Yet He Himself bore the sin of many,
And interceded for the transgressors.
Yes, Susan, Jesus bore our sins and took our transgressions upon Himself
according to the Jewish Scriptures. He is your Messiah but you
continue to reject Him.
> Since he fulfilled none of the requirements to have been Moshiach,
Wrong, He did, all of the requirements including rising from the dead.
> this statement of yours is ridiculous as best, & off-topic for > soc.culture.jewish -
No, it is not. Jesus is Jewish and so are the J4J.
But only those who receive Him are of the Chosen People
whether they be Jewish or not.
> but you knew that already.
Dan K.
May the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob enlighten the eyes
of your mind and reveal to you the truth about who Jesus is.
Mark Borok
And as you know, the Jews are
> cut off from a relationship with God because the Jews are living
> in their sins because the Temple has been destroyed and there
> is no way to get rid of your sins because sin offerings can NOT
> be performed.
So you're saying there was no Jewish religion between the time of Moses
and the building of the first Temple? King David did not have a
relationship with God?
Israel is cut off from God, and the Jews are no
> longer the Chosen people. The Chosen people are those who have
> accepted God's Messiah and Savior. As the Jewish Apostle Peter
> wrote, the Christians are a new race, a royal priesthood, a new
> nation.
If that is the case, they have failed pretty miserably to live up to the
ideal. Most nations do not spend quite so much time warring against
themselves.
The Prophet Zechariah in his book says that the Jews
> as a nation will not turn to Christ until they look at Him who
> they had pierced
AFAIK Christ was supposed to have been pierced by a Roman soldier.
Amazon
Susan Cohen wrote:
>
> Amazon wrote:
>
> >
> > > In nyc.general Amazon <ama...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >
> > > > > > What you call "preying" is not preying at all, but witnessing to their
> > > > > > Jewish brethren that Jesus Christ is the Jewish Messiah and the true
> > > > > > Passover lamb.
> > >
> > > They can practice any religion they want. They can believe that
> > > the Emperor Dune is God if they feel like it. And, they can practice their
> > > own religion of Christianity. Which is what people who follow Jesus are
> > > doing.
> > >
> > > in early stages, because they know that even Jews who have little
> > > knowledge know that Jesus is not for Jews.
> >
>
> Prejudicial? I'd say it's dishonest, rather than prejudicial. But the J4Js are
> like that.
I believe that it is you who are prejudiced against Jesus,
not the Jews for Jesus. Jesus came first of all for the Jews.
But the Jews as a nation rejected Him which is why God scattered
the Jews all over the world for 2000 years. For idolatry God
punished the Jews for a mere 70 Years, for rejecting and killing
His Son, God punished the Jews for 2000 years.
> > And isn't that prejudice based on a lack of knowledge of
> > *Jewish Biblical Scripture*?
>
> Why, I believe you're getting it! The J4Js really don't know all that > they should about the Torah.
But they do know that Jesus is the Messiah. BTW, the Jewish
Scriptures consist of more than just the Torah.
> > > But then, only much later, when
> > > they are enveloped in cult-like suffocation,
> >
> > I never knew the Jews for Jesus to be a cult
> That's funny - professional deprogrammers do.
First time that I have heard about that.
Their literature that I have seen is main line Christianity.
> > AFAIK, they are a Christian missionary group that is
> > focused on the Jewish people because they are Jews themselves
> ROTFL! This isn't a Freudian slip - it's the whole Victoria Secret's > Catalgoue!
That's your opinion.
> > and want to dissolve the prejudice which many Jews harbor
> > about Jesus.
> What prejudice? You mean to say that "prejudice" consists of not
> worshipping someone who we know - if he existed at all - was little
> more than an itinerant rabbi?
The Jews who followed Jesus must have been the most deceived people who
ever lived and should be studied if you are right because most of them
preferred to die very cruel deaths rather than deny that they saw Jesus
after He rose from the dead. Where else in history do you find people
willing to die for such a lie? NOWHERE ELSE! People may die for a
false belief, but not for an outright lie.
> Gee, you're pretty hard-nosed, aren't you (as we;; as off-topic for
> soc.culture.jewish - but you knew that before you posted)?
I don't find talking about Jews off topic in soc.culture.jewish.
> > AFAIk their aim is to show their Jewish "kin"
> > that Jesus is indeed the Messiah as shown in Jewish Biblical
> > Scripture.
> Then they can save their schizoid breath, becasue you can't show what > doesn't exist.
I just answered one of your other replies and went over Isaiah
chapter 53 pointing out where Jesus fulfilled Jewish prophetic
scripture.
> > > do they start slipping in mention of the Jesus crap.
> > Please read Isaiah chapter 53 and you will see that Jesus
> > did indeed fit into the description which the Propent Isaiah
> > painted of the Messiah.
> I've read it. There's no mention of him whatsoever.
Not by name, but by deeds.
> But thanks for playing.
I don't find this to be a game.
> > > Complete dishonesty.
> > IMHO the J4Js are completely honest.
> > At least the ones that I have met.
> I'm sure you think so. This entire posts displays your particular view > of reality.
> Too bad for you.
Like I said in the other post, I hope that God reveals Jesus to
you, but He usually doesn't do it if you refuse to ask Him if Jesus
is really the one that Isaiah talked about.
Dan K.
Amazon
Susan Cohen wrote:
>
> Amazon wrote:
>
> > Susan Cohen wrote:
> > >
> > > Amazon wrote:
> > >
Susan Cohen
Amazon wrote:
> Susan Cohen wrote:
> >
> > Amazon wrote:
> >
> > > Don Stockman wrote:
> > > >
> > > > In nyc.general Mark Borok <mbo...@spamlessmindspring.com> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > But these slimy people do not do that. They avoid mention of Jesus
> > > > > > in early stages, because they know that even Jews who have little
> > > > > > knowledge know that Jesus is not for Jews. But then, only much later, when
> > > > > > they are enveloped in cult-like suffocation, do they start slipping in
> > > > > > mention of the Jesus crap.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Complete dishonesty.
> > > >
> > > > > I am sure you speak from personal experience. However, all of the J4J
> > > > > literature I've seen has been up-front in declaring Christ to be the
> > > > > Messiah (including a semi-cute pamphlet in which Bart Simpson (?) says
> > > > > "Don't have a cow just because we're telling you that Jesus is the
> > > > > Messiah", or something like that).
> > > >
> > > > Correct. That's the stuff they spread in subways and buses and the
> > > > like when school is out, to adults. But on campus, they hold "passover
> > > > seders" and "friday night services" etc... with no mention of Jesus in the
> > > > flyers.
> > >
> > > Are you saying that just because the J4Js believe in Jesus that
> > > they don't have the *right* to hold on to and celebrate Jewish
> > > traditions?
> >
> > Pretty much. When you opt into another religion, it's considered good manners (at
> > the very least) to stop practising the former one. Helps the angels with their
> > scorekeeping.
>
> See how utterly ignorant you are Susan,
No. I'm too busy trying to show you how ignorant you are, to be continually and
deliberately off-topic on soc.culture.jewish
> the Passover is *NOT* a religious holiday, it is
> a commemorative holiday.
Which, even if so, does not negate my statement.
> It commemorates an event which
> happened *BEFORE* there was a Jewish religion.
> The Jews did not receive a religion until they went
> into the wilderness *AFTER* the Passover.
>
> Dan K.
>
> BTW, Jesus celebrated the Passover
Because he was Jewish at the time. Duh.
> and Christians have
> the liberty to celebrate the Passover also if they so choose.
> Christ set us free from religion
Interesting thought, there - & more telling than you realize.
> according to the Jewish
> Apostle Paul saying that we as Chritians are free to celebrate
> those holidays which we choose. I know that may sound strange
> to you until you reflect that God made religion for people and
> not the other way around.
Um, I'm not the one with a problem about religion. And if you say G-d made the religion,
but that you don't have to follow it - sounds like rank blaphemy to me. I wouldn't want
to stand next to you in a thunderstorm.
> Adam and Eve did not have a religion
> they had a relationship with God and because of Christ we are
> restored to that relationship.
Huh? LOL!
> But it is up to each Christian
> to develop that relationship. And as you know, the Jews are
> cut off from a relationship with God
Bullshit, plain & simple. I know you wish this tio be true, but it's not.
> because the Jews are living
> in their sins because the Temple has been destroyed and there
> is no way to get rid of your sins because sin offerings can NOT
> be performed. Israel is cut off from God, and the Jews are no
> longer the Chosen people.
Bzzzzt. Wrong answer - try again.
> The Chosen people are those who have
> accepted God's Messiah and Savior.
Nope. Try again, better luck next time.
> As the Jewish Apostle Peter
> wrote, the Christians are a new race, a royal priesthood, a new
> nation. The Prophet Zechariah in his book says that the Jews
> as a nation will not turn to Christ until they look at Him who
> they had pierced and weep over Him as for an only son.
> But individually many Jews are receiving Christ and so can you.
When you Christians gets your act together instead of each sect of 3 or more saying that
theirs is the only true religion, then maybe, just maybe, others will take you
seriously. Until then, just shut up & go away - you're only being annoying & a waste of
time & bandwidth.
Susan Cohen
Captain wrote:
> Susan Cohen wrote:
> >
> > Mark Borok wrote:
> >
> > > In article <6gi9t8$b...@news-central.tiac.net>, Don Stockman
> > > <ds...@shell1.tiac.net> wrote:
> > >
> > > > In nyc.general Amazon <ama...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > > > What you call "preying" is not preying at all, but witnessing to their
> > > > > > > Jewish brethren that Jesus Christ is the Jewish Messiah and the true
> > > > > > > Passover lamb.
> > > >
> > > > They can practice any religion they want. They can believe that
> > > > the Emperor Dune is God if they feel like it. And, they can practice their
> > > > own religion of Christianity. Which is what people who follow Jesus are
> > > > doing.
> > > >
> > > > But these slimy people do not do that. They avoid mention of Jesus
> > > > in early stages, because they know that even Jews who have little
> > > > knowledge know that Jesus is not for Jews. But then, only much later, when
> > > > they are enveloped in cult-like suffocation, do they start slipping in
> > > > mention of the Jesus crap.
> > > >
> > > > Complete dishonesty.
> > >
> > > I am sure you speak from personal experience. However, all of the J4J
> > > literature I've seen has been up-front in declaring Christ to be the
> > > Messiah (including a semi-cute pamphlet in which Bart Simpson (?) says
> > > "Don't have a cow just because we're telling you that Jesus is the
> > > Messiah", or something like that).
> > >
> > > IMO anyone who wants to proselytize among Jews has to take an approach
> > > that allows Jews to keep their cultural identity and their status as the
> > > chosen people.
> >
> > The worst part about your statement is that you have no idea how silly you sound.
>
> And your trying to reason with him?
True, true... But I'd hate for anyone to think we won't tell these idiots where to
go!
Amazon
Susan Cohen wrote:
>
> Amazon wrote:
........cut to save bandwidth ;-)..........
> > See how utterly ignorant you are Susan,
>
> No. I'm too busy trying to show you how ignorant you are, to be
> continually and deliberately off-topic on soc.culture.jewish
Like I said, Jesus is half Jewish so IMHO it is not off topic.
> > the Passover is *NOT* a religious holiday, it is
> > a commemorative holiday.
>
> Which, even if so, does not negate my statement.
>
> > It commemorates an event which
> > happened *BEFORE* there was a Jewish religion.
> > The Jews did not receive a religion until they went
> > into the wilderness *AFTER* the Passover.
> >
> > Dan K.
> >
> > BTW, Jesus celebrated the Passover
>
> Because he was Jewish at the time. Duh.
>
> > and Christians have
> > the liberty to celebrate the Passover also if they so choose.
> > Christ set us free from religion
>
> Interesting thought, there - & more telling than you realize.
>
> > according to the Jewish
> > Apostle Paul saying that we as Chritians are free to celebrate
> > those holidays which we choose. I know that may sound strange
> > to you until you reflect that God made religion for people and
> > not the other way around.
> Um, I'm not the one with a problem about religion. And if you say G-d > made the religion,
> but that you don't have to follow it - sounds like rank blaphemy to
> me. I wouldn't want to stand next to you in a thunderstorm.
Don't tell me that you are superstitious?
> > Adam and Eve did not have a religion
> > they had a relationship with God and because of Christ we are
> > restored to that relationship.
> Huh? LOL!
You mean that you did not know that that is the essence of Christianity
and what it is all about??? As the Jewish Apostle Paul wrote, "If
Christ did not rise from the dead then our faith is all in vain".
Because Jesus is alive, He has made it possible for us to have a
relationship with God. As the blood of a lamb once atoned for
Israel on the Day of Atonement, so today the blood of Jesus Christ
is an atonement for our sins as the Prophet Isaiah declared. Jesus
has made it possible for us to become the children of God.
> > But it is up to each Christian
> > to develop that relationship. And as you know, the Jews are
> > cut off from a relationship with God
> Bullshit, plain & simple. I know you wish this tio be true, but it's > not.
The Jewish religion *DEMANDS* a blood sacrifice for sins but since
the Temple does not exist today there is no way to get rid of your
sins if you are not a Messianic Jew, ie. a Jew who has accepted Jesus
as God's propitiation for his/her sins. That I'm afraid is the
*reality* of the situation for Jews today.
> > because the Jews are living
> > in their sins because the Temple has been destroyed and there
> > is no way to get rid of your sins because sin offerings can NOT
> > be performed. Israel is cut off from God, and the Jews are no
> > longer the Chosen people.
> Bzzzzt. Wrong answer - try again.
Then I'm afraid you do not know the basic tenets of your own
religion. Try reading the Torah sometime. God demands Jews to
keep all of the Laws of Moses, not just those which are convenient.
> > The Chosen people are those who have
> > accepted God's Messiah and Savior.
> Nope. Try again, better luck next time.
Like I said, I can not convince you, I am just saying what true
Christians believe, what the New Testament, written by Jews
BTW, says. Christianity is *NOT* a Gentile religion or faith, it
was and is Jewish. The meaning of "The Chosen People" is that God
chose the Jewish people as the nation through whom He would send
the Savior or Messiah, but now that the Savior has come, only those
who accept/receive/believe the Messiah are of the Chosen people,
regardless of their ethnic nationality. Do you see it?
> > As the Jewish Apostle Peter
> > wrote, the Christians are a new race, a royal priesthood, a new
> > nation. The Prophet Zechariah in his book says that the Jews
> > as a nation will not turn to Christ until they look at Him who
> > they had pierced and weep over Him as for an only son.
> > But individually many Jews are receiving Christ and so can you.
> When you Christians gets your act together instead of each sect of 3
> or more saying that theirs is the only true religion,
Like I said, Christianity is not a religion even though many Christians
have made it one, nevetheless, one does not have to be religious in the
sense that one must be in a certain "church" to be a Christian. True
Christians know and acknowledge this fact because it is what the New
Testament says. One becomes a Chritian by believeing in the Messiah
Jesus and keeping His commandments. But if one joins a church or a
denomination, then he is bound IMHO to keep the rules of that church or
group. But those are church rules, not God's commandments. Jesus has
set us free from the Law because Jesus completed the Law and instituted
a *New Covenant* between God and man through His blood, and I can not
emphasize that enough.
> then maybe, > just maybe, others will take you seriously.
I believe that there are quite a few Christians in the USA and the
world. Certainly a lot more than those who still live in the Old
Covenant and are still awaiting Messiah's first coming.
> Until then, just shut up & go away - you're only being annoying & a
> waste of time & bandwidth.
I don't believe that I am forcing you to keep up this dialogue.
I am not trying to convince you, but just to explain my views.
Dan K.
The Jewish Apostle John wrote:
John 3:16-19
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son,
that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life.
[17] "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world,
but that the world should be saved through Him. [18] "He who believes in
Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already,
because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
[19] "And this is the judgment, that the light is come into the world,
and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their deeds were
evil.
Mark Borok
> > > > I am sure you speak from personal experience. However, all of the J4J
> > > > literature I've seen has been up-front in declaring Christ to be the
> > > > Messiah (including a semi-cute pamphlet in which Bart Simpson (?) says
> > > > "Don't have a cow just because we're telling you that Jesus is the
> > > > Messiah", or something like that).
> > > >
> > > > IMO anyone who wants to proselytize among Jews has to take an approach
> > > > that allows Jews to keep their cultural identity and their status as the
> > > > chosen people.
> > >
> > > The worst part about your statement is that you have no idea how
silly you sound.
> >
> > And your trying to reason with him?
>
> True, true... But I'd hate for anyone to think we won't tell these
idiots where to
> go!
You seem to have mistaken me for a Christian. I am actually an agnostic.
Understandable mistake on your part.
al...@ix.junkblok.netcom.com
Amazon wrote:
> The Jewish religion *DEMANDS* a blood sacrifice for sins but since
> the Temple does not exist today there is no way to get rid of your
> sins if you are not a Messianic Jew, ie. a Jew who has accepted Jesus
> as God's propitiation for his/her sins. That I'm afraid is the
> *reality* of the situation for Jews today.
Well, I couldn't miss an opportunity to piss at DanK's parade. So here it is. Something I've
stumbled upon a few months ago:
"The birth of a red heifer (cow) in a farm in the religious youth village of Kfar
Hasidim (near Haifa) has excited sectors in the religious community. A delegation of some 25
experts, including Rabbis Yisrael Ariel and Yoseph
Elboim, visited the farm last week to examine the six-month-old cow, and concluded that it is in
fact an acceptable red
heifer, according to Torah requirements. However, the cow must be at least two years old before
it can be used. Until
then, the cow will be carefully watched to ensure that nothing occurs to invalidate its status.
According to Biblical
law, the cow's ashes are used for purification from certain forms of impurity, and is therefore
a prerequisite for the
renewal of Holy Temple service."
> Then I'm afraid you do not know the basic tenets of your own
> religion. Try reading the Torah sometime. God demands Jews to
> keep all of the Laws of Moses, not just those which are convenient.
What DanK does not realize or doesn't want to realize is the fact that practically nothing keeps
Jews from rebuilding the Temple. Whether or not it should be rebuilt is another question, but in
any case, those like DanK, don't have and won't have any saying in it.
> The meaning of "The Chosen People" is that God
> chose the Jewish people as the nation through whom He would send
> the Savior or Messiah, but now that the Savior has come, only those
> who accept/receive/believe the Messiah are of the Chosen people,
> regardless of their ethnic nationality. Do you see it?
Of course, DanK. We know that the mere continuous existance of the Jews doesn't let you sleep at
night. The whole eligibility of the Cristian chirch as the "New Temple" is based on its
self-clamed succession of the G-d's representation on Earth. Yet Judaism is still here and you
just can't take it, can you?
> I believe that there are quite a few Christians in the USA and the
> world. Certainly a lot more than those who still live in the Old
> Covenant and are still awaiting Messiah's first coming.
So what's the problem, huh? You can keep your mamzer and we will wait for a true Messiah
> I don't believe that I am forcing you to keep up this dialogue.
> I am not trying to convince you, but just to explain my views.
>
> Dan K.
On the contrary, all you've been doing is forcing your beleives on others. You started this
tread. Or at least, jumped on it and steered it into your favorite direction. No one was asking
you for an "explanation". Do us a favor and lay this crap off for good.
--
If replying by email delete .junkblok from address
Don Stockman
In nyc.general Amazon <ama...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> I believe that it is you who are prejudiced against Jesus,
> not the Jews for Jesus. Jesus came first of all for the Jews.
> But the Jews as a nation rejected Him which is why God scattered
> the Jews all over the world for 2000 years. For idolatry God
> punished the Jews for a mere 70 Years, for rejecting and killing
> His Son, God punished the Jews for 2000 years.
We Jews did not reject Jesus. There's nothing there to reject.
Here's a clue. The Messiah is suppsoed to end war, bringt about
peace, swords into plowshares, and all that. Didn't happen. Which means,
for these and other reason, that wasn't the Messiah.
Here's another. You sell me your car. I give you $5000. You bring
your car. I bring no money. You drive away. Did you reject my $5000? No, I
just didn't have it. Nothing to reject.
Here's the final clue. It wasn't God who has been afflicting Jews
for thousands of years. It's been your Christians. Can you spell Crusades?
> Their literature that I have seen is main line Christianity.
Ask for their college stuff, and the ones they distribute in Russian in
Brighton Beach, in NYC. Ask for the good stuff.
> The Jews who followed Jesus must have been the most deceived people who
> ever lived and should be studied if you are right because most of them
> preferred to die very cruel deaths rather than deny that they saw Jesus
> after He rose from the dead. Where else in history do you find people
> willing to die for such a lie? NOWHERE ELSE! People may die for a
> false belief, but not for an outright lie.
The people who followed him are to be pitied, since they devoted much of
their lives to falsehoods. However, as soon as Jesus got waxed, most of
his followers saw the light. Jesus had not delivered on the goods. No one
was redeemed, there was no world peace. So, they went about hoping for the
real messiah to come.
The small minority of Jews who refused to give up changed the rules in the
middle of the game. They decided that the Messiah DOES NOT have to do what
he is supposed to do.
A 3 year old can see through that. Promise him a candy if he does
something. He does it, and then tell him "no, no, I meant NEXT time I
would give it to you."
See if he swallows that. He won't, unlike you christians with your worship
of a dead human being.
> Not by name, but by deeds.
By deeds? The messiah is supposed to do certain things. Otherwise, he
isn't the messiah. Maybe he is a used car dealer. Jesus did not accomplish
these things.The bastard just got himself killed by the Romans with his
rabble-rousing.
Don Stockman
In nyc.general Amazon <ama...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Like I said, Jesus is half Jewish so IMHO it is not off topic.
"Half-Jewish"? What's the other half?
P.S. Even in our day, teens who get themselves knocked up don't go around
saying that God screwed them. It's not a very convincing explanation,
Amazon. And, kind of blasphemous, if you know what I mean.
> You mean that you did not know that that is the essence of Christianity
> and what it is all about??? As the Jewish Apostle Paul wrote, "If
> Christ did not rise from the dead then our faith is all in vain".
Yup. And that perfectly summarizes everything that is wrong with
Christianity.
You had a bunch of poor Jews, hoping that the Messiah would save them from
the Romans. Along comes this bastard kid, gathers a following by telling
them that they don't have to follow the strict laws of Judaism, and then,
to top it all off, gets himself killed by the Romans, while crying to God
for having abandoned him.
That kind of thing can be a REAL letdown when you get home to the wife and
kids. What do you tell them? "Hey honey, you know the guy who I thought
was the Messiah? Well, the Romans got him today."
That's a real bummer. So what do you do, if you are desparate? You create
new rules, and pretend like the Messiah doesn't have to do what he's
supposed to do. Allegedly, he can do it NEXT time. Gee whiz. Wish they'd
done the same thing when Buckner let that damn ball through his legs.
So what do you have? You pretend that Jesus was the Messiah. And just to
make sure that everyone thinks you're serious, you get even worse. You
pretend he's God. Of course, to do that, you need to ignore some basic
things. Like, God doesn't cry to himself about being abandoned.
So, take your Jesus shit elsewhere, please.
Amazon
al...@ix.junkblok.netcom.com wrote:
>
> Amazon wrote:
>
> > The Jewish religion *DEMANDS* a blood sacrifice for sins but since
> > the Temple does not exist today there is no way to get rid of your
> > sins if you are not a Messianic Jew, ie. a Jew who has accepted Jesus
> > as God's propitiation for his/her sins. That I'm afraid is the
> > *reality* of the situation for Jews today.
>
Go ahead, give it your best shot.
BTW, it's "piss on" not "piss at".
> "The birth of a red heifer (cow) in a farm in the religious youth village of Kfar
> Hasidim (near Haifa) has excited sectors in the religious community. A delegation of some 25
> experts, including Rabbis Yisrael Ariel and Yoseph
> Elboim, visited the farm last week to examine the six-month-old cow, and concluded that it is in
> fact an acceptable red
> heifer, according to Torah requirements. However, the cow must be at least two years old before
> it can be used. Until
> then, the cow will be carefully watched to ensure that nothing occurs to invalidate its status.
> According to Biblical
> law, the cow's ashes are used for purification from certain forms of impurity, and is therefore
> a prerequisite for the
> renewal of Holy Temple service."
I'm well aware of the news about the red heifer and FYI the Jews
will rebuild the Temple as predicted by Jesus in the Gospels
and also as predicted in the Tanakh, especially by Daniel.
> > Then I'm afraid you do not know the basic tenets of your own
> > religion. Try reading the Torah sometime. God demands Jews to
> > keep all of the Laws of Moses, not just those which are convenient.
>
> What DanK does not realize or doesn't want to realize is the fact that practically nothing keeps
> Jews from rebuilding the Temple.
I absolutely agree with you. And as I said, they will rebuild it
and IMHO very soon. In fact the Jews are already studying in
the Yeshivas in Jerusalem to officiate in the Temple when it will
be rebuilt and the priestly vestments are being made as are all
the instruments which will be needed.
> Whether or not it should be rebuilt is another question, but in
> any case, those like DanK, don't have and won't have any saying in it.
You are absolutely right. IMHO it is only God who is not allowing
the Temple to be rebuilt because according to Daniel there
is a very important time line which depends on the Temple.
See especially Daniel chapter 9 and 11.
> > The meaning of "The Chosen People" is that God
> > chose the Jewish people as the nation through whom He would send
> > the Savior or Messiah, but now that the Savior has come, only those
> > who accept/receive/believe the Messiah are of the Chosen people,
> > regardless of their ethnic nationality. Do you see it?
> Of course, DanK. We know that the mere continuous existance of the
> Jews doesn't let you sleep at night.
If it were not for God, the Jews would have been either assimilated
or destroyed a long time ago, even by the Babylonians or
Greeks or Romans, not to mention the Germans.
BTW, Saddam Hussein in an interview about 10 years ago vowed
to drive the Jews into the sea. At the time Iraq was prospering
and Hussein had a surplus of 30 Billion dollars. His hatred of
Israel put him at odds with God and thus today he is a pauper.
One must not hate the Jews, but pray for them and their salvation.
> The whole eligibility of the Cristian chirch as the "New Temple" is
> based on its self-clamed succession of the G-d's representation on > Earth.
Not self-claimed, the New Testament tells us that God no longer
dwells in temples made by hands but in everyone who is redeemed
by the blood of His Son Jesus Christ who according to the Jewish
prophet Isaiah was prophesied to give Himself as a sin offering
for all who believe. See my other post about "Christ is risen".
> Yet Judaism is still here and you
> just can't take it, can you?
God gives all men the right to accept or reject his Son.
Remember, the first Christians were Jewish. One can not
hate Judaism if one is a Christian, but the fact remains, that
the following of the Law can not save the one who practices it
because God has already sent His Son to bring in the New
Covenant. Following the Law does you no good anymore now
that Christ has come. Only God can reveal Jesus to you or
anyone else, it is a sin IMHO to hate the blind. Christians
are called to share the good news about Jesus not hate those
who don't accept that news.
> > I believe that there are quite a few Christians in the USA and the
> > world. Certainly a lot more than those who still live in the Old
> > Covenant and are still awaiting Messiah's first coming.
> So what's the problem, huh? You can keep your mamzer and we will wait > for a true Messiah
You are free to do as you choose, but Jesus is alive and He did
rise from the dead and that is the true meaning of Easter.
> > I don't believe that I am forcing you to keep up this dialogue.
> > I am not trying to convince you, but just to explain my views.
> > Dan K.
> On the contrary, all you've been doing is forcing your beleives on > others.
Come, come now, "forcing", over the internet? Please be realistic.
> You started this tread. Or at least, jumped on it and steered it into > your favorite direction. No one was asking
> you for an "explanation". Do us a favor and lay this crap off for > good.
You don't have to read my posts if you don't like them,
AFAIK, there is still free speech on the internet, at least
here in the USA.
> --
> If replying by email delete .junkblok from address
Dan K.
Amazon
Don Stockman wrote:
>
> In nyc.general Amazon <ama...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> > Like I said, Jesus is half Jewish so IMHO it is not off topic.
>
> "Half-Jewish"? What's the other half?
Jesus's mother was Jewish, His father was the Creator God who made
all things and the *Laws* which govern the Universe.
> P.S. Even in our day, teens who get themselves knocked up don't go around
> saying that God screwed them. It's not a very convincing explanation,
> Amazon.
The Gospels clearly state that Jesus was born of a virgin
according to the prophecies of the Jewish Bible.
> And, kind of blasphemous, if you know what I mean.
No, I don't, the prophets of Israel prophesied about Messiah
who will die for the sins of mankind and then because of
His obedience to God will return *in God's time* to rule
the world. See Isaiah Chapter 53. That Israel is now a nation
is a sign of the times the Jesus will return soon according to the
writings of the Prophet Daniel and Jesus in the Gospels.
> > You mean that you did not know that that is the essence of Christianity
> > and what it is all about??? As the Jewish Apostle Paul wrote, "If
> > Christ did not rise from the dead then our faith is all in vain".
> Yup. And that perfectly summarizes everything that is wrong with
> Christianity.
Did you not read in Daniel chapter 12 that there will be a
resurrection from the dead?
> You had a bunch of poor Jews, hoping that the Messiah would save them from
> the Romans. Along comes this bastard kid, gathers a following by telling
> them that they don't have to follow the strict laws of Judaism, and then,
> to top it all off, gets himself killed by the Romans, while crying to God
> for having abandoned him.
>
> That kind of thing can be a REAL letdown when you get home to the wife and
> kids. What do you tell them? "Hey honey, you know the guy who I thought
> was the Messiah? Well, the Romans got him today."
>
> That's a real bummer. So what do you do, if you are desparate? You create
> new rules, and pretend like the Messiah doesn't have to do what he's
> supposed to do. Allegedly, he can do it NEXT time. Gee whiz. Wish they'd
> done the same thing when Buckner let that damn ball through his legs.
>
> So what do you have? You pretend that Jesus was the Messiah. And just to
> make sure that everyone thinks you're serious, you get even worse. You
> pretend he's God. Of course, to do that, you need to ignore some basic
> things. Like, God doesn't cry to himself about being abandoned.
Wrong twisted explanation. Just read the Gospels as they are and
do not change the story, the Apostles of Jesus Christ layed down
their lives rather than renounce their story. Men do not die for
an outright lie. Would you? BTW two of Jesus's closest Apostles,
Peter and Andrew, accepted a crucifiction just like Jesus did rather
than renounce that they had seen Jesus after He had risen from the
dead. If it were not true, I don't think they would have accepted
that sort of death after seeing what a horrible way it was to die.
But best of all for you is that if you ask the God of Abraham, Isaac
and Jacob to show you the truth about Jesus in all humility and honesty,
He will do it just as He has done for the Jews for Jesus. That Jesus
lives is what gives the J4J and other Messianic Jews their drive to tell
their Jewish people about the truth about who Jesus is.
> So, take your Jesus shit elsewhere, please.
If you are Jewish, you should read and study Isaiah chapter 53
and the book of Daniel, but skip the chapters about the lion den
and the fiery furnace, you probably already know that and it just
might get you side tracked, even though IMHO it did actually occur.
Dan K.
Amazon
> > not the Jews for Jesus. Jesus came first of all for the Jews.
> > But the Jews as a nation rejected Him which is why God scattered
> > the Jews all over the world for 2000 years. For idolatry God
> > punished the Jews for a mere 70 Years, for rejecting and killing
> > His Son, God punished the Jews for 2000 years.
> We Jews did not reject Jesus. There's nothing there to reject.
God gave the Jews 40 years after the death and resurrection of Jesus
to turn to Him and His Son. They refused and God punished them
according to what He had told them He would do to them in the Tanakh
if they disobeyed Him. For rejecting His Son God punished them for
2000 years to be dispersed around the world. What is the Jewish
explanation for the land spitting the Jews out as God had promised
if they refused to obey Him?
> Here's a clue. The Messiah is suppsoed to end war, bringt about
> peace, swords into plowshares, and all that. Didn't happen. Which means,
> for these and other reason, that wasn't the Messiah.
Now you are dictating to God the times and the seasons.
The prophet Isaiah told us that the Messiah must die for the sins
of the people and that because He does, He will be exalted.
He has done the first part, died and resurrected. He will do
the rest when He returns as He promised to do.
> Here's another. You sell me your car. I give you $5000. You bring
> your car. I bring no money. You drive away. Did you reject my $5000? No, I
> just didn't have it. Nothing to reject.
Didn't you say that you *gave* me the money in the third sentence?
You are contradicting yourself. Typical of many here on the newsgroups.
> Here's the final clue. It wasn't God who has been afflicting Jews
> for thousands of years. It's been your Christians. Can you spell Crusades?
If you read the Tanakh carefully you will see that God is
able to protect the Jews from the most powerful forces on Earth
when they live in *obedience* to Him. He promised to punish
His people if they do not *obey* Him. The Jews did not *obey*
His Only Begotten Son, therefore they were punished until the
"times of the Gentiles" is completed. That time as I see it
happened in 1967, so I believe that the return of Jesus is very
soon. According to Jesus the next great sign will be the
rebuilding of the Temple. See Matthew Chapter 24.
I'll post if for you if you do not have a New Testament and
are interested.
> > Their literature that I have seen is main line Christianity.
> Ask for their college stuff, and the ones they distribute in Russian
> in Brighton Beach, in NYC. Ask for the good stuff.
> > The Jews who followed Jesus must have been the most deceived people who
> > ever lived and should be studied if you are right because most of them
> > preferred to die very cruel deaths rather than deny that they saw Jesus
> > after He rose from the dead. Where else in history do you find people
> > willing to die for such a lie? NOWHERE ELSE! People may die for a
> > false belief, but not for an outright lie.
> The people who followed him are to be pitied, since they devoted much of
> their lives to falsehoods. However, as soon as Jesus got waxed, most of
> his followers saw the light. Jesus had not delivered on the goods. No one
> was redeemed, there was no world peace. So, they went about hoping for the
> real messiah to come.
>
> The small minority of Jews who refused to give up changed the rules in the
> middle of the game. They decided that the Messiah DOES NOT have to do what
> he is supposed to do.
Wrong, as I explained, He has done much of what He was prophesied to
do, the rest He will do when He returns.
> A 3 year old can see through that. Promise him a candy if he does
> something. He does it, and then tell him "no, no, I meant NEXT time I
> would give it to you."
I presume that you are an adult, ask God to reveal Jesus to you
in truth and honesty and I promise you that He will.
> See if he swallows that. He won't, unlike you christians with your
> worship of a dead human being.
Just check out Psalm 2 in the Tanakh, who do you think the "Son" is?
And in Zecharaiah 14, who is the Lord who will set his feet on the Mount
of Olives? It is Jesus when He returns.
> > Not by name, but by deeds.
> By deeds? The messiah is supposed to do certain things. Otherwise, he
> isn't the messiah. Maybe he is a used car dealer. Jesus did not accomplish
> these things.
Not all of the things He will do, but He will when He returns.
But you don't want to discuss Isaiah chapter 53 do you?
> The bastard just got himself killed by the Romans with his
> rabble-rousing.
Start reading the Tanakh and the Gospels instead of fairy tales
and lying stories.
Dan K.
Susan Cohen
Mark Borok wrote:
> In article <3536F128...@smart.net>, Susan Cohen <ze...@smart.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > I am sure you speak from personal experience. However, all of the J4J
> > > > > literature I've seen has been up-front in declaring Christ to be the
> > > > > Messiah (including a semi-cute pamphlet in which Bart Simpson (?) says
> > > > > "Don't have a cow just because we're telling you that Jesus is the
> > > > > Messiah", or something like that).
> > > > >
> > > > > IMO anyone who wants to proselytize among Jews has to take an approach
> > > > > that allows Jews to keep their cultural identity and their status as the
> > > > > chosen people.
> > > >
> > > > The worst part about your statement is that you have no idea how
> silly you sound.
> > >
> > > And your trying to reason with him?
> >
> > True, true... But I'd hate for anyone to think we won't tell these
> idiots where to
> > go!
>
> You seem to have mistaken me for a Christian. I am actually an agnostic.
> Understandable mistake on your part.
What I really was mistaken about was that I thought you were *trying* to convert
Jews to Christianity.
Susan
Susan Cohen
Amazon wrote: The Jews who followed Jesus must have been the most deceived people who
> ever lived and should be studied if you are right because most of them
> preferred to die very cruel deaths rather than deny that they saw Jesus
> after He rose from the dead. Where else in history do you find people
> willing to die for such a lie? NOWHERE ELSE! People may die for a
> false belief, but not for an outright lie.
Nazi Germany: they had their "martyrs", too.
> > Gee, you're pretty hard-nosed, aren't you (as we;; as off-topic for
> > soc.culture.jewish - but you knew that before you posted)?
>
> I don't find talking about Jews off topic in soc.culture.jewish.
The place for your posts is in alt.messianic - where I've set the follow-ups. Byt you knew that already -
if only by your own admission about Jews for Jesus being mainline Christianity.
Susan Cohen
Amazon wrote:
> Susan Cohen wrote:
> >
> > Amazon wrote:
> >
> > > Don Stockman wrote:
> > >
> > > > In nyc.general Amazon <ama...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > >
> > > > > > > What you call "preying" is not preying at all, but witnessing to their
> > > > > > > Jewish brethren that Jesus Christ is the Jewish Messiah and the true
> > > > > > > Passover lamb.
> > > >
> > > > They can practice any religion they want. They can believe that
> > > > the Emperor Dune is God if they feel like it. And, they can practice their
> > > > own religion of Christianity. Which is what people who follow Jesus are
> > > > doing.
> > > >
> > > > But these slimy people do not do that. They avoid mention of Jesus
> > > > in early stages, because they know that even Jews who have little
> > > > knowledge know that Jesus is not for Jews.
> > >
> > > Isn't that being just a little prejudicial?
> >
> > Prejudicial? I'd say it's dishonest, rather than prejudicial. But the J4Js are
> > like that.
>
> I believe that it is you who are prejudiced against Jesus,
> not the Jews for Jesus.
Well, you've already shown that you have some pretty funny beliefs.
> Jesus came first of all for the Jews.
Which, from what I've learned about the Xian religion, is a lie: he supposedly came for everyone. You
really ought to get your facts straight before you tell other people to believe as you do. Then again, I
find it amusing that there are thousands of Xian sects, each one claiming to have *the answer*.
> But the Jews as a nation rejected Him which is why God scattered
> the Jews all over the world for 2000 years.
In your opinion.
> For idolatry God
> punished the Jews for a mere 70 Years, for rejecting and killing
> His Son, God punished the Jews for 2000 years.
And you're going to say that you love Jews, of course, that you're not prejudiced, or anything like that.
Uh-huh.
> > > And isn't that prejudice based on a lack of knowledge of
> > > *Jewish Biblical Scripture*?
> >
> > Why, I believe you're getting it! The J4Js really don't know all that > they should about the Torah.
>
> But they do know that Jesus is the Messiah. BTW, the Jewish
> Scriptures consist of more than just the Torah.
Yes. And none of them refer to Jesus. Not one. Only Moshiach, who hasn't come yet.
> > > > But then, only much later, when
> > > > they are enveloped in cult-like suffocation,
> > >
> > > I never knew the Jews for Jesus to be a cult
>
> > That's funny - professional deprogrammers do.
>
> First time that I have heard about that.
Live & learn.
> Their literature that I have seen is main line Christianity.
So much for them pretending to be Jews, as intheir name. Thankyou for revealing their deceit for all the
world to see.
> > > AFAIK, they are a Christian missionary group that is
> > > focused on the Jewish people because they are Jews themselves
>
> > ROTFL! This isn't a Freudian slip - it's the whole Victoria Secret's > Catalgoue!
>
> That's your opinion.
Based on the fact that they call themselves "Jews", your calling them Christians is a Freudian slip -
unless you're too honest for their own good!
> > > AFAIk their aim is to show their Jewish "kin"
> > > that Jesus is indeed the Messiah as shown in Jewish Biblical
> > > Scripture.
>
> > Then they can save their schizoid breath, becasue you can't show what > doesn't exist.
>
> I just answered one of your other replies and went over Isaiah
> chapter 53 pointing out where Jesus fulfilled Jewish prophetic
> scripture.
Not in the slightest, but thank you for playing, We have some lovely parting gifts for you.
> > > > do they start slipping in mention of the Jesus crap.
>
> > > Please read Isaiah chapter 53 and you will see that Jesus
> > > did indeed fit into the description which the Propent Isaiah
> > > painted of the Messiah.
>
> > I've read it. There's no mention of him whatsoever.
>
> Not by name, but by deeds.
Which aren't his at all.
> > But thanks for playing.
>
> I don't find this to be a game.
That's the real tragedy. You believe it all.
> > > > Complete dishonesty.
>
> > > IMHO the J4Js are completely honest.
> > > At least the ones that I have met.
>
> > I'm sure you think so. This entire posts displays your particular view > of reality.
> > Too bad for you.
>
> Like I said in the other post, I hope that God reveals Jesus to
> you, but He usually doesn't do it if you refuse to ask Him if Jesus
> is really the one that Isaiah talked about.
Jesus has already been revealed to me - as at best an itinerant rabbi of 2000 years ago, & at least a
construct of some desperate cultists. You can save your hopes for someone who wants/needs them.
Don Stockman
In nyc.general Amazon <ama...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> God gave the Jews 40 years after the death and resurrection of Jesus
> to turn to Him and His Son. They refused and God punished them
> according to what He had told them He would do to them in the Tanakh
> if they disobeyed Him. For rejecting His Son God punished them for
> 2000 years to be dispersed around the world. What is the Jewish
> explanation for the land spitting the Jews out as God had promised
> if they refused to obey Him?
40 years? Where did you get that number? Oh, and BTW, I'd love to see your
text of Isaiah. It doesn't seem to match the standard text. For example,
there's none of your shit about Jesus in there.
> > Here's a clue. The Messiah is suppsoed to end war, bringt about
> > peace, swords into plowshares, and all that. Didn't happen. Which means,
> > for these and other reason, that wasn't the Messiah.
> Now you are dictating to God the times and the seasons.
Before your pretender to the throne, Jesus, yemach shmo vezichrono, was
executed, no one ever interpreted anything in the Torah to support the
ludicrous claim that the Messiah would not do what he's supposed to do,
but is supposed to die first and come back., and opnly THEN do it. That's
pure bullshit. Of course, disppointed people can re-interpret anything to
make them feel better.
As for the even more ludicrous and blasphemous claim that some human being
is God, well, all I can say is that someone was smoking some tall weed
back then. Complete bullshit.
> I presume that you are an adult, ask God to reveal Jesus to you
> in truth and honesty and I promise you that He will.
Here's a thought. Fuck Jesus, and fuck you too while you're at it. Stop
pretending to be Jewish among Jewish people and live you life with your
jesus/god in any way you want. Just stay the hell away from Jews who are
not educated, through no fault of their own, to know better.
Don Stockman
> >
> > "Half-Jewish"? What's the other half?
> Jesus's mother was Jewish, His father was the Creator God who made
> all things and the *Laws* which govern the Universe.
Yea, right. God cohabitated with a human. Bzzzt. Try again.
> > P.S. Even in our day, teens who get themselves knocked up don't go around
> > saying that God screwed them. It's not a very convincing explanation,
> > Amazon.
> The Gospels clearly state that Jesus was born of a virgin
> according to the prophecies of the Jewish Bible.
Perhaps the Bible of another dimension. Not the one around for tousands of
years on this Earth.
> > And, kind of blasphemous, if you know what I mean.
> No, I don't,
Well, then, there's your problem right there. You need to consider that
God is an all-powerful all-knowing being who does not go around having
intercourse with human beings. He also does not go around changing his
mind about the Testament he gave Israel.
Finally, if you are too stupid to realize any of the above, you should at
least have the basic intelligence to realize that God is not a human
being, and God does not cry out to himself about being abandoned by
himself.
Basic, basic common sense.
compania
. . . Amazon and Don Stockman and Dan K. wrote this trialogue
. . . and it describes the perspectives of Judiasm and Christianity.
. . . One would think that the God Who started all this
. . . is either dead or crazy.
. . . But the fact is, this dialogue is a Good Outcome,
. . . because Justice [that Jews opt for] and
. . . Fairness [that Christians opt for]
. . . can never meet eye-to-eye,
. . . because the languages by-pass each other.
. . . There literally is not equivalent words back and forth,
. . . to make any clarity come to rest.
. . . It is on the horns of such a dilemma
. . . that the experiences of Justice and Fairness must sprout.
. . . Any God-fearing mortal who believes that Jahweh
. . . is a passive, lazy and indulgent God
. . . will feel that all this arguing is pointless.
. . . But the people who realize that Life Means Contention
. . . [between the cats and the dogs,
. . . between the Republicans and the Democrats,
. . . between the Left and the Right,
. . . between Needs and Desires,
. . . between Justice and Fairness]
. . . will satisfy themselves that Jahweh's Ways are TRUE.
. . . He does not reward indolence nor complacency.
. . . So take up your point-of-view--pick it up--
. . . and speak out with it--
. . . if EVER you expect to make any difference at all.
--Jahweh
> > I believe that it is you who are prejudiced against Jesus,
> > > not the Jews for Jesus. Jesus came first of all for the Jews.
> > > But the Jews as a nation rejected Him which is why God scattered
> > > the Jews all over the world for 2000 years. For idolatry God
> > > punished the Jews for a mere 70 Years, for rejecting and killing
> > > His Son, God punished the Jews for 2000 years.
> > We Jews did not reject Jesus. There's nothing there to reject.
>
> God gave the Jews 40 years after the death and resurrection of Jesus
> to turn to Him and His Son. They refused and God punished them
> according to what He had told them He would do to them in the Tanakh
> if they disobeyed Him. For rejecting His Son God punished them for
> 2000 years to be dispersed around the world. What is the Jewish
> explanation for the land spitting the Jews out as God had promised
> if they refused to obey Him?
>
> > Here's a clue. The Messiah is suppsoed to end war, bringt about
> > peace, swords into plowshares, and all that. Didn't happen. Which means,
> > for these and other reason, that wasn't the Messiah.
>
> Now you are dictating to God the times and the seasons. The prophet Isaiah
> told us that the Messiah must die for the sins of the people and that because
> He does, He will be exalted. He has done the first part, died and
> resurrected. He will do
> the rest when He returns as He promised to do.
>
> > Here's another. You sell me your car. I give you $5000. You bring your car.
> I bring no money. You drive away. Did you reject my $5000? No, I just didn't
> have it. Nothing to reject.
>
> Didn't you say that you *gave* me the money in the third sentence?
> You are contradicting yourself. Typical of many here on the newsgroups.
>
> > Here's the final clue. It wasn't God who has been afflicting Jews
> > for thousands of years. It's been your Christians. Can you spell Crusades?
>
> If you read the Tanakh carefully you will see that God is able to protect the
> Jews from the most powerful forces on Earth when they live in *obedience* to
> Him. He promised to punish His people if they do not *obey* Him. The Jews
> did not *obey* His Only Begotten Son, therefore they were punished until the
> "times of the Gentiles" is completed. That time as I see it happened in 1967,
> so I believe that the return of Jesus is very soon. According to Jesus the
> next great sign will be the
> rebuilding of the Temple. See Matthew Chapter 24. I'll post if for you if you
> do not have a New Testament and are interested.
>
> > > Their literature that I have seen is main line Christianity.
>
> > Ask for their college stuff, and the ones they distribute in Russian in
> Brighton Beach, in NYC. Ask for the good stuff.
>
> > > The Jews who followed Jesus must have been the most deceived people who
> > > ever lived and should be studied if you are right because most of them
> > > preferred to die very cruel deaths rather than deny that they saw Jesus
> > > after He rose from the dead. Where else in history do you find people
> > > willing to die for such a lie? NOWHERE ELSE! People may die for a
> > > false belief, but not for an outright lie.
>
> > The people who followed him are to be pitied, since they devoted much of
> > their lives to falsehoods. However, as soon as Jesus got waxed, most of
> > his followers saw the light. Jesus had not delivered on the goods. No one
> > was redeemed, there was no world peace. So, they went about hoping for the
> > real messiah to come.
> > The small minority of Jews who refused to give up changed the rules in the
> > middle of the game. They decided that the Messiah DOES NOT have to do what
> > he is supposed to do.
>
> Wrong, as I explained, He has done much of what He was prophesied to
> do, the rest He will do when He returns.
>
> > A 3 year old can see through that. Promise him a candy if he does
> > something. He does it, and then tell him "no, no, I meant NEXT time I
> > would give it to you."
>
> I presume that you are an adult, ask God to reveal Jesus to you
> in truth and honesty and I promise you that He will.
>
> > See if he swallows that. He won't, unlike you christians with your
> > worship of a dead human being.
>
> Just check out Psalm 2 in the Tanakh, who do you think the "Son" is?
> And in Zecharaiah 14, who is the Lord who will set his feet on the Mount
> of Olives? It is Jesus when He returns.
>
> > > Not by name, but by deeds.
>
Amazon
Susan Cohen wrote:
>
> Amazon wrote:
>
> > >
> > > Amazon wrote:
> > >
> > > > Don Stockman wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > In nyc.general Amazon <ama...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > > > > Jewish brethren that Jesus Christ is the Jewish Messiah and the true
> > > > > > > > Passover lamb.
> > > > >
> > > > > They can practice any religion they want. They can believe that
> > > > > the Emperor Dune is God if they feel like it. And, they can practice their
> > > > > own religion of Christianity. Which is what people who follow Jesus are
> > > > > doing.
> > > > >
> > > > > But these slimy people do not do that. They avoid mention of Jesus
> > > > > in early stages, because they know that even Jews who have little
> > > > > knowledge know that Jesus is not for Jews.
> > > >
> > > > Isn't that being just a little prejudicial?
> > >
> > > Prejudicial? I'd say it's dishonest, rather than prejudicial. But the J4Js are
> > > like that.
> >
> > not the Jews for Jesus.
>
>
>
Of course He came to die for all who believe, just as the Jewish High
Priest
performs the rite of atonement on the Day of Atonement for all who
believe.
But the Jews have not been able to perform these rites for the past 2000
years,
so they are living in their sins and are thus separated from God for as
the
Scriptures say, "It is your sins which separate you from God".
But the Jewish Apostle Paul wrote that salvation is for the Jew first
and
also for the Gentiles. That is what I was referring to.
> You really ought to get your facts straight before you tell other people to believe as > you do. Then again, I find it amusing that there are thousands of Xian sects, each one > claiming to have *the answer*.
I think that what you misunderstand is that all True Christians believe
the
basic truth about who Jesus is which is *the answer*. What Christians
disagree
on is either how to live the Christian life or on some points of
doctrine which
causes unnecessary divisions. I believe that the Jews also have that
problem.
Do all Jews agree on how to practice Judaism? They don't today and they
did not
in Jesus's day.
>
> > But the Jews as a nation rejected Him which is why God scattered
> > the Jews all over the world for 2000 years.
>
> In your opinion.
What is your opinion, I am not being facetious, I have never heard a
Jewish explanation on why God cast the Jews out of their land for 2000
years.
> > For idolatry God
> > punished the Jews for a mere 70 Years, for rejecting and killing
> > His Son, God punished the Jews for 2000 years.
> And you're going to say that you love Jews, of course, that you're not prejudiced, or > anything like that.
> Uh-huh.
The Jews killed many prophets that God sent to His people because
they did not like the message of repentence, it was not only Jesus
that the Jews killed. But that does not give Christians or anyone
else the right to hate Jews or anyone else. What the Jews did to
Jesus was abominable just as what the Germans did to the Jews was
abominable and what the Russians did to Christians was abominable.
> > > > And isn't that prejudice based on a lack of knowledge of
> > > > *Jewish Biblical Scripture*?
> > >
> > > Why, I believe you're getting it! The J4Js really don't know all that > they should about the Torah.
> >
> > But they do know that Jesus is the Messiah. BTW, the Jewish
> > Scriptures consist of more than just the Torah.
> Yes. And none of them refer to Jesus. Not one. Only Moshiach, who hasn't come yet.
Jesus may not be named, but His deeds are and Jesus fulfilled only
a small number of them as recorded in Isaiah 53 and other places.
But you are right most of the Scriptures concerning the Messiah have
not been yet accomplished, but they will when Jesus returns as He
certainly
will, but not until after the Temple is rebuilt. The Prophet Daniel
tells
us about the time line in many places of his book.
> > > > > But then, only much later, when
> > > > > they are enveloped in cult-like suffocation,
> > > >
> > > > I never knew the Jews for Jesus to be a cult
> >
> > > That's funny - professional deprogrammers do.
> >
> > First time that I have heard about that.
>
> Live & learn.
You too. :-)
> > Their literature that I have seen is main line Christianity.
>
> So much for them pretending to be Jews, as intheir name. Thankyou for revealing their > deceit for all the world to see.
I think that their name says it all, they are Jews after their ethnicity
who have accepted the redemption work of the Messiah Jesus of Nazareth.
No deception there AFAIK.
>
> > > > AFAIK, they are a Christian missionary group that is
> > > > focused on the Jewish people because they are Jews themselves
> >
> > > ROTFL! This isn't a Freudian slip - it's the whole Victoria Secret's > Catalgoue!
> >
> > That's your opinion.
>
> Based on the fact that they call themselves "Jews", your calling them Christians is a > Freudian slip - unless you're too honest for their own good!
I see, a Jew can be an atheist or an agnostic or a soviet but not a
Christian.
Funny reasoning there as I see it. Is that what they call "fuzzy
logic"? :-)
So in your opinion a Jew who is not religious and does not follow the
Law of Moses is not a Jew?
> > > > AFAIk their aim is to show their Jewish "kin"
> > > > that Jesus is indeed the Messiah as shown in Jewish Biblical
> > > > Scripture.
> >
> > > Then they can save their schizoid breath, becasue you can't show what > doesn't exist.
> >
> > I just answered one of your other replies and went over Isaiah
> > chapter 53 pointing out where Jesus fulfilled Jewish prophetic
> > scripture.
> Not in the slightest, but thank you for playing, We have some lovely parting gifts for > you.
I hope you at least read the post.
> > > > > do they start slipping in mention of the Jesus crap.
> >
> > > > Please read Isaiah chapter 53 and you will see that Jesus
> > > > did indeed fit into the description which the Propent Isaiah
> > > > painted of the Messiah.
> >
> > > I've read it. There's no mention of him whatsoever.
> >
> > Not by name, but by deeds.
>
> Which aren't his at all.
He already died and rose,
He will return in *POWER* to subdue the Earth and rule it
for God as King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
And according to the Scriptures that event is imminent as
the Jews are about to rebuild the Temple and indeed can
do it whenever God allows.
> > > But thanks for playing.
> >
> > I don't find this to be a game.
>
> That's the real tragedy. You believe it all.
Only by the grace and goodness of God.
> > > > > Complete dishonesty.
> >
> > > > IMHO the J4Js are completely honest.
> > > > At least the ones that I have met.
> >
> > > I'm sure you think so. This entire posts displays your particular view > of reality.
> > > Too bad for you.
> >
> > Like I said in the other post, I hope that God reveals Jesus to
> > you, but He usually doesn't do it if you refuse to ask Him if Jesus
> > is really the one that Isaiah talked about.
>
> Jesus has already been revealed to me - as at best an itinerant rabbi of 2000 years ago, & at least a
> construct of some desperate cultists. You can save your hopes for someone who > wants/needs them.
We all need Him whether we know it or not.
Dan K.
Don Stockman
In nyc.general Amazon <ama...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Of course He came to die for all who believe, just as the Jewish High
> Priest performs the rite of atonement on the Day of Atonement for all
> who believe.
Actually, I think he died because he was a shitty carpenter. All of his
prior customers finally had enough of him, and they told the Romans where
he was.
> basic truth about who Jesus is which is *the answer*. What Christians
> disagree
> on is either how to live the Christian life or on some points of
> doctrine which
> causes unnecessary divisions.
If Jesus is the answer, then the question must be:
"Name the one individual whose alleged existence has led to more death and
suffering over the history of mankind than any other individual."
> The Jews killed many prophets that God sent to His people because
> they did not like the message of repentence, it was not only Jesus
> that the Jews killed.
Hey, asshole. It was the Romans who killed Jesus. But don't let the truth
get in your way. Oh, yea. I'm sure you love Jews.
> He already died and rose,
> He will return in *POWER* to subdue the Earth and rule it
> for God as King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
The only *POWER* I know of is in THE RING, which I have. When I put it on,
I feel very powerful. I am also invisible. It's my magical mystery decoder
ring. Would you like one too?
Listen carefully. Jesus was the bastard son of an adulterous woman, who
could not even save his own skin when the Romans came for him, and he died
whining like a stuck pig to God for having abandoned him.
You can follow this bastard straight into the ground, but keep your crap
about him off the Jewish newsgroups.
Michael Kagalenko
That is somewhat out of topic on soc.culture.russian. I apologize to readers
of s.c.jewish for "Amazon" (Dan Korolyshin)'s persistent prozelitsing. If
it helps, he isn't Russian; he is American of Ukrainian extraction.
That said, I think some comments are in order.
Don Stockman (ds...@shell1.tiac.net) wrote in article <6hh40j$g...@news-central.tiac.net>
]
]Yea, right. God cohabitated with a human. Bzzzt. Try again.
That isn't accurate representation of Chrisitian doctrine, as you probably
know. Christians believe that Jesus was conceived without sin, i.e.,
without intercourse. And, before you denounce that as silly, consider
that there is no shortage of silly doctrines in any major religion.
]Basic, basic common sense.
"Common sense" isn't very good guide as far as monotheistic religion is
concerned. The notion of all-powerful and good being isn't, as far
as I can see, logically possible, never mind commonsensical.
Don Stockman
In nyc.general Michael Kagalenko <mkag...@lynx02.dac.neu.edu> wrote:
> That is somewhat out of topic on soc.culture.russian. I apologize to readers
> of s.c.jewish for "Amazon" (Dan Korolyshin)'s persistent prozelitsing. If
> it helps, he isn't Russian; he is American of Ukrainian extraction.
> That said, I think some comments are in order.
> Don Stockman (ds...@shell1.tiac.net) wrote in article <6hh40j$g...@news-central.tiac.net>
> ]
> ]Yea, right. God cohabitated with a human. Bzzzt. Try again.
> That isn't accurate representation of Chrisitian doctrine, as you probably
> know. Christians believe that Jesus was conceived without sin, i.e.,
> without intercourse. And, before you denounce that as silly, consider
> that there is no shortage of silly doctrines in any major religion.
Correct. There is no such shortage.
However, any doctrine has to be at least INTERNALLY
self-consistent. In other words, say I happen to be a follower of the Tlid
religion. Tlids believe that their omnipotent being resides on a cactus
leaf somewhere in the world. Tlids believe that every 4 years, for a year,
their omnipotent being turns into a green frog, and sits on the leaf. The
rest of the time the being is an invisible gas located next to the leaf.
Say this year is a frog year. Yet, I go out and eat frogs' legs.
Someone asks me how can I do so? I tell him, "Actually, my being is only a
frog during the first half of the frog year."
Same thing here. Before the emergence of "Christianity", everyone
the world over who was interested, which very few people were, knew that
the Jews were praying to God to send the Messiah to redeem them. And that
when the Messiah came, all wars would end, swords would be beaten into
ploughshares, and the whole world would recognize God.
The Jewish belief, and a lot sillier than most such things.
Anyway, things were rough on Jews during the Roman times. Everyone prayed
REAL HARD. That's why, when Jesus came along, some Jews were REAL HOPEFUL
that he would turn out to be the Messiah. They ignored that some of the
things he did were against the Torah commandments (The Messiah, once he
comes, will of course be fully observent). Nevertheless, these misguided
Jews might have had some reason to hope. That is, until Jesus got nailed.
Because he died without redeeming anyone, least of all himself.
So, the revisionists dug into their texts and tried to find what had never
been conceived before. That the Messiah wouldn't redeem Israel right away,
but would actually DIE FIRST. Sort of like painting a bulls-eye around an
arrow that was already shot.
But that's not logical. That's not internally self-consistent. If
you believe in the existence of a Messiah, who will come and redeem you,
you sure expect that anyone who comes along and claims (or in whose name
claims are made) would, like, do what he's suppsoed to do. It's
anti-logical to change the belief to fit the facts afterwards.
I mean, if Jesus had converted to Islam, would someone say that
first the Messiah has to convert to Islam, before redeeming? (Before you
say "That's ridiculous," consider the example of Shabtai Tzi, another
pretender. To save *his* skin, he converted. And then his followers
reinterpreted a tired old text, "he will be pierced" [which, by the way,
never referred to a person at all, but to Israel], not to mean that the
body will be pierced, but that he will be PROFANED).
Look, there is no limit to human ingenuity in coming up with
rationalizations. But my point is that if someone subscribes to a belief
system, he should keep on with it, or abandon it. Not to revise it to suit
current facts. If a religion has a "Messiah" in it, who comes to redeem
Israel, and someone comes along and claims to be the Messiah, all I can
say is that he should, like, DO WHAT HE IS SUPPOSED TO DO, before he can
be accepted as the Messiah. I mean, like, don't come up with a new story
after the fact, something which was never subscribed to before, that he
will Come Back.
That's the first thing.
The second thing is that not only was Israel not saved, not only
does the whole world not recognize God, but MILLIONS of people have been
killed by people doing it in his name. That's actually Anti-proof, as if
one even needed to have anti-proof.
Michael Kagalenko
Don Stockman (ds...@shell1.tiac.net) wrote in article <6hlv72$7...@news-central.tiac.net>
]
]> That is somewhat out of topic on soc.culture.russian. I apologize to readers
]> of s.c.jewish for "Amazon" (Dan Korolyshin)'s persistent prozelitsing. If
]> it helps, he isn't Russian; he is American of Ukrainian extraction.
]
]> That said, I think some comments are in order.
]
]> Don Stockman (ds...@shell1.tiac.net) wrote in article <6hh40j$g...@news-central.tiac.net>
]> ]
]> ]Yea, right. God cohabitated with a human. Bzzzt. Try again.
]
]> That isn't accurate representation of Chrisitian doctrine, as you probably
]> know. Christians believe that Jesus was conceived without sin, i.e.,
]> without intercourse. And, before you denounce that as silly, consider
]> that there is no shortage of silly doctrines in any major religion.
]
] Correct. There is no such shortage.
]
] However, any doctrine has to be at least INTERNALLY
]self-consistent.
You realize, I hope, that Jewish doctrine fails this standard,
just like Christian and Islam doctrines ?
If you wish to be honest, "I believe because it's absurd," is
about the only sound way to ground monotheistic faith.
Amazon
Mark Weinstock wrote:
>
> In article <353BE7...@earthlink.net>, Amazon <ama...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> ->Don Stockman wrote:
> ->>
> ->> In nyc.general Amazon <ama...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> ->>
> ->> > Like I said, Jesus is half Jewish so IMHO it is not off topic.
> ->>
> ->> "Half-Jewish"? What's the other half?
> ->
> ->Jesus's mother was Jewish, His father was the Creator God who made
> ->all things and the *Laws* which govern the Universe.
>
> Wouldn't this make Jesus Hercules?
No.
Oh wait, that was mythology. Has it
> occurred to anyone the similarities between the mythologies of the time and
> the "prophesies?"
Sure there are, there are even similarities between reality and
mythology, how about David and Goliath or Samson and Delilah?
Perhaps the people needded something to believe in, and
> seeing all their "neighbors" believing in gods that lay with humans, they
> came up with their own?
Nah, missing the mark.
Jesus fulfilled prophecies concerning His birth.
Didn't Jesus consider himself Jewish to the end?
Of course, He was the son of David after the flesh.
But just as God allowed Sarah to conceive after she was
old and long after she stopped ovulating, so too in a similar
way God caused Mary to conceive by the Power of His Spirit.
No great feat for God. He did create Adam out of a handful of
dust and Adams wife Eve out of a rib, so what's so hard about
causing a virgin to conceive by His power.
> Even after he was shunned by the Jewish community? it wasn't until after he
> died that people decided to create an entire religion around him.
Not at first, the first Christians did not create a religion,
they were simply followers of Jesus. It was the Greeks and
Roman Christians who created a religion out of Jesus's teachings.
Jesus brought salvation and deliverance from dead religion which
only bound man to keep him from straying, but Christ brought
salvation and truth and He gives the Holy Spirit to those who follow
Him so that they may walk in faith after the Living Spirit rather
than after the letter of the Law. As the Christian Scriptures
say, "For as many as received Him, gave He power to become the
sons of God". One becomes a child of God when one becomes born
again of God's Spirit. That does not happen when you follow the
Laws of Moses. The purpose of the Law was to keep people straight
until the Messiah was to come. He came. In Christ we are set free
from religion to follow the Spirit of God and do God's will as He
shows us individually. It is a Spiritual walk and not a following
of rules and laws.
> Thats just my opinion, as valuable as yours or anyone elses.
Everyone is entitled to his or her opinion, but as the
Scripture says, "there is a way that seems right unto a man
but the ways thereof are the ways of death." Proverbs.
One needs to be sure that one's opinions are in line with
the Scriptures.
> --
> Mark
Dan K.
Amazon
> > >
> > > In nyc.general Amazon <ama...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Like I said, Jesus is half Jewish so IMHO it is not off topic.
> > >
>
>
God did for Mary similar to what He did for Sarah the wife of Abraham.
For Sarah He made her fertile in her old age long past her time
of ovulation, for Mary He made her conceive by the power of the Holy
Spirit.
> > > P.S. Even in our day, teens who get themselves knocked up don't go around
> > > saying that God screwed them. It's not a very convincing explanation,
> > > Amazon.
>
> > The Gospels clearly state that Jesus was born of a virgin
> > according to the prophecies of the Jewish Bible.
>
> Perhaps the Bible of another dimension. Not the one around for tousands of
> years on this Earth.
The Jewish Bible says that Messiah was to be born of a virgin.
He was.
> > > And, kind of blasphemous, if you know what I mean.
>
> > No, I don't,
>
> Well, then, there's your problem right there.
I don't think so, your problem is that you need to know the
Scriptures better.
> You need to consider that
> God is an all-powerful all-knowing being who does not go around having
> intercourse with human beings.
No He doesn't nor does He do so. But the Bible says in many
places that He has a Son. Read Psalm 2 for example.
> He also does not go around changing his
> mind about the Testament he gave Israel.
The Jews broke His Testament or Covenant with them so He instituted
a new Covenant through His Son, Jesus.
> Finally, if you are too stupid to realize any of the above, you should at
> least have the basic intelligence to realize that God is not a human
> being, and God does not cry out to himself about being abandoned by
> himself.
Jesus is the Son of God, not the Father to whom He cried out.
Even in the Old Testament it is written about the Spirit of the Lord
is it not?
> Basic, basic common sense.
Not everything that God does makes "basic common sense".
Did it make sense to post the blood of a lamb on the door posts
on the night of the Passover before the Jews left Egypt?
No, but the Jews did it anyway out of obedience to God and all
those who obeyed got to be passed over by the angel of death and
their first born were not touched.
Dan K.
Amazon
> > to turn to Him and His Son. They refused and God punished them
> > according to what He had told them He would do to them in the Tanakh
> > if they disobeyed Him. For rejecting His Son God punished them for
> > 2000 years to be dispersed around the world. What is the Jewish
> > explanation for the land spitting the Jews out as God had promised
> > if they refused to obey Him?
>
Jesus was killed and He arose from the dead in about 33 AD.
In 70 AD the Roman General Titus surrounded Jerusalem as Jesus
said the Romans would and totally destroyed Jerusalem and the
Temple as Jesus said they would and deported the Jews to all
parts of the world as Jesus said they would.
> Oh, and BTW, I'd love to see your text of Isaiah.
Not a problem, I already posted it before but I am most happy
to repost it for you.
Isaiah 53:1-12
Who has believed our message?
And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
[2] For He grew up before Him like a tender shoot,
And like a root out of parched ground;
He has no stately form or majesty
That we should look upon Him,
Nor appearance that we should be attracted to Him.
[3] He was despised and forsaken of men,
A man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief;
And like one from whom men hide their face,
He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.
[4] Surely our griefs He Himself bore,
And our sorrows He carried;
Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten of God, and afflicted.
[5] But He was pierced through for our transgressions,
He was crushed for our iniquities;
The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him,
And by His scourging we are healed.
[6] All of us like sheep have gone astray,
Each of us has turned to his own way;
But the Lord has caused the iniquity of us all
To fall on Him.
[7] He was oppressed and He was afflicted,
Yet He did not open His mouth;
Like a lamb that is led to slaughter,
And like a sheep that is silent before its shearers,
So He did not open His mouth.
[8] By oppression and judgment He was taken away;
And as for His generation, who considered
That He was cut off out of the land of the living,
For the transgression of my people to whom the stroke was due?
[9] His grave was assigned with wicked men,
Yet He was with a rich man in His death,
Because He had done no violence,
Nor was there any deceit in His mouth.
[10] But the Lord was pleased
To crush Him, putting Him to grief;
If He would render Himself as a guilt offering,
He will see His offspring,
He will prolong His days,
And the good pleasure of the Lord will prosper in His hand.
[11] As a result of the anguish of His soul,
He will see it and be satisfied;
By His knowledge the Righteous One,
My Servant, will justify the many,
As He will bear their iniquities.
[12] Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great,
And He will divide the booty with the strong;
Because He poured out Himself to death,
And was numbered with the transgressors;
Yet He Himself bore the sin of many,
And interceded for the transgressors.
The person who is talked about is Jesus, He fulfilled everything
up to the point of verse 12 which will be completed when He
returns. Jesus will be rewarded because He "poured Himself to
death" and "bore the sin of many". He bore the sin of many because
not everyone receives His atonement for them. If you do not
receive Christ's atonement as stated above in God's Word your
sin will remain on you and you will have to give account to God
on why you refused to ask God to show you if Jesus is the one
Isaiah talked about in this prophecy.
> It doesn't seem to match the standard text. For example,
> there's none of your shit about Jesus in there.
It does not mention His name, but it matches His deeds.
> > > Here's a clue. The Messiah is suppsoed to end war, bringt about
> > > peace, swords into plowshares, and all that. Didn't happen.
That will happen when Jesus returns.
Which means,
> > > for these and other reason, that wasn't the Messiah.
Messiah must also fulfill Isaiah chapter 53.
> > Now you are dictating to God the times and the seasons.
> Before your pretender to the throne, Jesus, yemach shmo vezichrono, was
> executed, no one ever interpreted anything in the Torah to support the
> ludicrous claim that the Messiah would not do what he's supposed to do,
> but is supposed to die first and come back.,
Just read Isaiah 53 above for yourself.
> and opnly THEN do it. That's
> pure bullshit. Of course, disppointed people can re-interpret anything to
> make them feel better.
>
> As for the even more ludicrous and blasphemous claim that some human being
> is God, well, all I can say is that someone was smoking some tall weed
> back then. Complete bullshit.
Everone is entitled to his or her opinion even if it is wrong.
> > I presume that you are an adult, ask God to reveal Jesus to you
> > in truth and honesty and I promise you that He will.
>
> Here's a thought. Fuck Jesus, and fuck you too while you're at it. Stop
> pretending to be Jewish among Jewish people
I'm not Jewish, I'm an American.
> and live you life with your
> jesus/god in any way you want. Just stay the hell away from Jews who
> are not educated, through no fault of their own, to know better.
I do not *force* my views on anyone, nor does God expect me to
according to what my Bible says. But I do have a duty to express
my views and convictions, indeed God commands me to tell others
about Jesus and what He has done for me. But if they do not want to
hear, so be it. And you do not need to read my posts if they offend
you.
Dan K.
Amazon
Don Stockman wrote:
>
> In nyc.general Amazon <ama...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> > Of course He came to die for all who believe, just as the Jewish High
> > Priest performs the rite of atonement on the Day of Atonement for all
> > who believe.
>
> prior customers finally had enough of him, and they told the Romans where
> he was.
>
> > disagree
> > on is either how to live the Christian life or on some points of
> > doctrine which
> > causes unnecessary divisions.
>
> "Name the one individual whose alleged existence has led to more death and
> suffering over the history of mankind than any other individual."
>
> > they did not like the message of repentence, it was not only Jesus
> > that the Jews killed.
> get in your way. Oh, yea. I'm sure you love Jews.
God commands us to love all people Jews included, but I do admit that
it is easier to love some people more than others.
> > He already died and rose,
> > He will return in *POWER* to subdue the Earth and rule it
> > for God as King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
> The only *POWER* I know of is in THE RING, which I have. When I put it on,
> I feel very powerful. I am also invisible. It's my magical mystery decoder
> ring. Would you like one too?
Sounds like you are getting bored with this discussion.
Too bad.
> Listen carefully. Jesus was the bastard son of an adulterous woman, who
> could not even save his own skin when the Romans came for him, and he died
> whining like a stuck pig to God for having abandoned him.
Some people would want you to believe that, but that view will only
lead you to destruction. The Soviets tried to destroy all knowledge
of Jesus and they failed, there is still one Evil Personage to come
known as the Antichrist who will rule the world and persecute Christians
before Christ returns, but he too will fail and it is in his days that
Jesus will return.
> You can follow this bastard straight into the ground, but keep your crap
> about him off the Jewish newsgroups.
As I said elsewhere, Jesus is a relevant topic on a Jewish newsgroup,
however, you do not need to read my posts if they offend you.
Dan K.
Don Stockman
In nyc.general Don Stockman <ds...@shell1.tiac.net> wrote:
> The Jewish belief, and a lot sillier than most such things.
That should read "less silly than most such things."
Don Stockman
In nyc.general Mark Weinstock <Wo...@interactive.net> wrote:
> ->> "Half-Jewish"? What's the other half?
> ->
> ->Jesus's mother was Jewish, His father was the Creator God who made
> ->all things and the *Laws* which govern the Universe.
> Wouldn't this make Jesus Hercules?
It would also disqualify on yet one more ground from being an eligible
contender for being the Messiah. The Messiah is supposed to come
paternally from the House of David.
Unless Mary had a sex change operation, God himself does not qualify as
being a human being descended from the House of David.
Christians start trying to argue that it is Mary's husband, but that
requires changing the facts yet again, something about which they seem to
have gotten good at.
Don Stockman
In nyc.general Michael Kagalenko <mkag...@lynx01.dac.neu.edu> wrote:
> ] However, any doctrine has to be at least INTERNALLY
> ]self-consistent.
> You realize, I hope, that Jewish doctrine fails this standard,
> just like Christian and Islam doctrines ?
> If you wish to be honest, "I believe because it's absurd," is
> about the only sound way to ground monotheistic faith.
I really do wish you'd open up your brain for a second and think.
It says "if you are indeed the Messiah, then certain actions are
expected of you before you die." It does not change the ground rules after
the time period is over.
gene+...@insti.physics.sunysb.edu
In article <6hm3lg$b...@news-central.tiac.net>,
Don Stockman <ds...@shell1.tiac.net> wrote:
>
> It would also disqualify on yet one more ground from being an eligible
> contender for being the Messiah. The Messiah is supposed to come
> paternally from the House of David.
You should read "Holy Blood, Holy Grail". Authors of this book, while
studying history of Knights Templar build a rather compelling case that Jesus
*was* of royal blood and the legend of "holy grail" actually refers to his
blood in the sense of his descendants.
--ET.
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
Amazon
I guess you did not understand Isaiah 53, it clearly states that Messiah
must die and that because of His willingness to die He shall be rewarded
by God. Jesus came, died, rose from the dead and will return in God's
time to fulfill the rest of Scripture in God's time. Jesus is not
finished, as you understand, He must return and put an end to wars and
renew the creation of God so that animals learn to live in peace as they
did in the Garden of Eden. Daniel chapter 2 gives us the time line as
to when Jesus will come to destroy the rule of man on Earth and when
Jesus will establish God's Kingdom on Earth. History does not repeat
itself, it has a goal and that goal is found in Daniel:
Daniel 2:44
"And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a
kingdom which will never be destroyed, and that kingdom will not be left
for another people; it will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms,
but it will itself endure forever."
Jesus rose from the dead and He will rule God's Kingdom forever!
He was found worthy to receive glory and honor because as Isaiah
foretold, He was willing to pour himself out as a sin offering
for all who accept Him.
Dan K.
Maya Botvinnik
Mark Weinstock wrote:
> ->
> ->Jesus's mother was Jewish, His father was the Creator God who made
> ->all things and the *Laws* which govern the Universe.
>
> Wouldn't this make Jesus Hercules? Oh wait, that was mythology. Has it
> occurred to anyone the similarities between the mythologies of the time and
> the "prophesies?" Perhaps the people needded something to believe in, and
> seeing all their "neighbors" believing in gods that lay with humans, they
> came up with their own? Didn't Jesus consider himself Jewish to the end?
> Even after he was shunned by the Jewish community? it wasn't until after he
> died that people decided to create an entire religion around him.
>
> Thats just my opinion, as valuable as yours or anyone elses.
>
What is bad about mythology? There is still a custom in Judaism, which originated
in Egipt mythology, as a sacrifice to Egiptian God, and which is acircumcision.
Does it make Judaism any less for you then?
If you want to know about Jesus, you can always read Gospel and be free
from any false rumors. Jesus did not claim himself as a Jew - he claimed
that people are equal before God. Actually, he wasn't accepted as a proper Jew:
"Your mother is Galilean, and your father is unknown" - that was the end of
a religious discussion with Judaic priests. Technically speaking, for them he was
only stepson of a Jew. Only now, when he is famous, many Jews agreed to count him
as a Jew - not to learn about him and accept his teaching, but to gain his fame.
Your opinion is valuble only if it is not a lie.
My best regards,
Maya Botvinnik
Don Stockman
In nyc.general Amazon <ama...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> I guess you did not understand Isaiah 53, it clearly states that Messiah
> must die and that because of His willingness to die He shall be rewarded
> by God.
I guess you cannot read, since it says nothing of the kind.
I also guess that you cannot think, since the Jews who were
praying for the Messiah to come and redeem them were not praying for
someone to come along, get himself killed, and then come sometime again in
the next few thousand years. This bizarre reading of Isaiah 53 occurred
only way after he got himself killed.
Don Stockman
According to the Jewish Bible, one of the central requirements
for the Messiah is that he must be a descendant of King David. All
of the major Messianic prophecies indicate this. In the 33rd
chapter of Jeremiah, G-d says that the House of David will never
lack a man to sit on the throne of the House of Israel.
The Christian Bible, recognizing this important requirement,
spends almost two chapters to establish the genealogical record of
Jesus as going back to King David. However, when the genealogical
records, as recorded by Matthew and Luke are examined, a number of
critical problems are revealed.
ACCORDING TO MATTHEW
In the gospel of Matthew, the genealogy of Joseph, who was the
husband of Mary, is traced back to King David. However, Matthew
then shoots himself in the foot by claiming that Joseph was never
the father of Jesus. He does this in order to establish his claim
that Jesus did not have a normal birth. His claim is that Jesus
was the product of a miraculous virgin birth - that Mary never had
sexual relations with her husband Joseph, and that Jesus was
conceived through the Holy Spirit.
Therefore, since the genealogy as recorded in Matthew only
traces Joseph back to King David, but never connects Joseph as the
father of Jesus, it is clear that Jesus has no genealogical record
going back to King David.
Christian apologists answer that even though Joseph wasn't the
biological father of Jesus, he was the legal father, and,
therefore, passed on his genealogical line through adoption.
There are several problems with this answer.
First of all, there is no indication from any of the records in
the Christian Bible that Joseph actually adopted Jesus. However,
even if a case for his adoption could be made, there is no
indication from the Bible that it's possible to pass on one's
genealogy through adoption. For example, a priest (Kohain) is
someone who is born to another priest. If your father is a priest,
then you are a priest. If a priest adopts a boy who is the son of
someone who was not a priest, that child does NOT become a priest
through adoption.
An additional problem still remains, even if one would want to
say that through adoption the genealogy is adopted as well.
We find that when Matthew traces the genealogical line of Joseph
back to King David, this line goes through a King of Israel named
Jeconiah. The problem is that in the 22nd book of Jeremiah, this
King is cursed by G-d.
"Write this man childless, a man that shall not prosper in his
days. For no man of his seed shall prosper sitting upon the throne
of David and ruling anymore in Judah."
We see from this passage in Jeremiah that any descendant of
Jeconiah would be disqualified from ever being a Messianic
candidate; and therefore, if Christians insist upon making Jesus
the legal adopted child of Joseph, then it is obvious that Jesus
would be disqualified from even potentially being the Jewish
Messiah.
ACCORDING TO LUKE
In order to answer this difficult problem, Christian apologists
claim that Jesus also traces himself back to King David through his
mother, Mary. This claim is made relative to the genealogy
recorded in the 3rd chapter of the book of Luke, which is also
traced back to King David.
There are also a number of problems with this claim.
First and foremost, there is no evidence at all that the
genealogy listed in Luke is that of Mary. The chapter clearly says
that this is the genealogy of Joseph. Mary isn't even mentioned.
In an article written by Arnold Fruchtenbaum, and circulated by
Jews for Jesus, the author makes the following claim:
"In the Greek text of Luke's genealogy, every single name
mentioned has the Greek definite article 'the' with one exception:
the name of Joseph (Luke 3:23). Someone reading the original would
understand by the missing definite article from Joseph's name that
this was not really Joseph's genealogy, but his wife Miriam's
(Mary)."
David L. Blank, Professor of classic languages at UCLA, made the
following observations about these comments:
"According to the Greek original, Eli is indeed the father of
Joseph. There is a definite article before each name, except that
of Joseph, and that definite article is in each case the masculine
genitive singular article - tou. Not only does this NOT clearly
indicate that Joseph is skipped in the genealogy, it cannot by any
stretch of the imagination be taken as so indicated. The author's
comments on the Greek grammar of the passage are absurd and
manifest an appalling ignorance of the facts of Greek syntax."
Other Greek scholars agree with Professor Blank.
Even if Mary could trace herself back to King David, it still
wouldn't help Jesus. According to the Torah, the mother determines
if someone is Jewish, but tribal affiliation and family genealogy
can only be traced through the person's father. For example, in
Numbers 1:18, we're told that the Jewish people declare their
pedigrees according to their fathers' houses. For example, when
Queen Athaliah wanted to eliminate the Royal Line of David, she
only killed the males - knowing full well that a female descendant
of David couldn't pass on the right to the throne (2 Kings 11 and 2
Chronicles 22). The fact that the daughters of Zelophchad
inherited their father's property (Numbers 27) does NOT prove that
genealogy can be passed through the daughters. This is borne out
by Numbers 36, where they are told that they must marry someone
from their father's tribe, otherwise the inheritance would pass out
of their family.
Thirdly, even if it could be maintained that a family line could
be passed on through the mother, Mary herself was NOT from a
legitimate messianic family. According to the Bible, the Messiah
must be a descendant of King David, through his son Solomon (2
Samuel 7:12-13; 1 Chronicles 17:11-14; 22:10; 28:4-7).
It's interesting that in the book of Matthew, the genealogy of
Joseph is traced back to King David through his son Solomon, but
ultimately down to the cursed King Jeconiah. However, in the book
of Luke, the genealogy goes from David, not through his son
Solomon, but through his son Nathan. The problem is that even if
one wants to maintain that the book of Luke is tracing the
genealogy of Mary AND that it's possible to pass on genealogical
lineage through the mother, Mary would still not be of help to
Jesus, because her line does not go back to David through Solomon.
Finally, a fourth problem presents itself. The third chapter in
the book of Luke lists both Shealtiel and Zerubbabel in the
genealogy. These two individuals also appear in Matthew's
genealogy as descendants of the cursed King Jeconiah. Therefore,
if Mary descends from Shealtiel and Zerubbabel, this would also
place her under the curse of King Jeconiah, and she would be
disqualified from ever being a messianic progenitor.
ACCORDING TO G-D
Jesus failed to fulfill any of the major messianic prophecies;
he was never anointed as King, he never ruled Israel, and the world
was certainly not perfected in his time. In addition, he was not
preceded by the return of the prophet Elijah. Finally, he was
disqualified from ever being a messianic candidate due to his lack
of the necessary family background.
The Jewish people never rejected Jesus. He just never measured
up to the description that G-d gave to the Jewish people, of who
the Messiah would be.
You are confronted with a choice: you can believe what G-d said
when he promised the Jewish people a Messiah from the House of
David through Solomon his son, or you can decide that G-d was lying
when He made these promises.
Susan Cohen
Maya Botvinnik wrote:
> If you want to know about Jesus, you can always read Gospel and be free
> from any false rumors.
Big Hint: you can't use something to prove itself
> Jesus did not claim himself as a Jew - he claimed
> that people are equal before God. Actually, he wasn't accepted as a proper Jew:
> "Your mother is Galilean, and your father is unknown" - that was the end of
> a religious discussion with Judaic priests.
Whatever. This means nothing in terms of actual proof one way or the other.
> Technically speaking, for them he was
> only stepson of a Jew. Only now, when he is famous, many Jews agreed to count him
> as a Jew - not to learn about him and accept his teaching, but to gain his fame.
Crap. If anything, out of kindness we agree to say that if he was a person, he was
undoubtedly Jewish. There is absolutely no proof that he even existed. If you want to
know the truth, there are even those of us who are convinced he's a construct of the
imagination of some greedy "televangelist" types.
> Your opinion is valuble only if it is not a lie.
Ditto.
> My best regards,
Yeah right. I'll bet you're praying for us, too.
Susan Cohen
Don Stockman wrote:
> The only *POWER* I know of is in THE RING, which I have. When I put it on,
> I feel very powerful. I am also invisible. It's my magical mystery decoder
> ring. Would you like one too?
"Oh, Frodo - give me THE RING! Give me THE RING!"
Susan Cohen
Susan Cohen
Maya Botvinnik wrote:
> Mark Weinstock wrote:
>
> > ->
> > ->Jesus's mother was Jewish, His father was the Creator God who made
> > ->all things and the *Laws* which govern the Universe.
> >
> > Wouldn't this make Jesus Hercules?
It makes him Perseus.
Amazon
Ok, here it is again, try reading it again, maybe you'll get it
this time around. Let me go over it with you.
Isaiah 53:1-12
Who has believed our message?
And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
[2] For He grew up before Him like a tender shoot,
And like a root out of parched ground;
He has no stately form or majesty
That we should look upon Him,
Nor appearance that we should be attracted to Him.
[3] He was despised and forsaken of men,
A man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief;
Does this sound like a glorious Messiah to you?
And like one from whom men hide their face,
He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.
Will He be accepted or rejected???
[4] Surely our griefs He Himself bore,
And our sorrows He carried;
Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten of God, and afflicted.
What does this say to you?
Does this sound like He will at first coming be a conquerer?
I think not!
[5] But He was pierced through for our transgressions,
He was crushed for our iniquities;
Does this tell you that He will conquer or be crushed?
The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him,
And by His scourging we are healed.
What does this mean, that by His scourging WE ARE HEALED???
Only Christians who have been healed by the Messiah Jesus
know what this means. Jesus is alive and He still heals the
sick, the blind and the lame when we come to Him in Faith and
receive this healing which He paid for on Golgotha.
The Great Ukrainian King Volodymyr the Great became a Christian
because God healed his eyes and therefore Volodymyr repented and
converted from paganism and became a Christian and destroyed all
the idols in his kingdom and made his kingdom a Christian state.
[6] All of us like sheep have gone astray,
Each of us has turned to his own way;
But the Lord has caused the iniquity of us all
To fall on Him.
Do you understand what this means, that God caused Him to
bear our iniquities?
[7] He was oppressed and He was afflicted,
Yet He did not open His mouth;
Like a lamb that is led to slaughter,
And like a sheep that is silent before its shearers,
So He did not open His mouth.
[8] By oppression and judgment He was taken away;
And as for His generation, who considered
That He was cut off out of the land of the living,
How is it that you can not understand that this means that
the Messiah was to be killed?
For the transgression of my people to whom the stroke was due?
Don't you understand that this means that the stroke was due
to the Jews but that Jesus took you punishment for you???
[9] His grave was assigned with wicked men,
Yet He was with a rich man in His death,
Can't you see that Jesus was buried in a rich man's grave?
Because He had done no violence,
Nor was there any deceit in His mouth.
[10] But the Lord was pleased
To crush Him, putting Him to grief;
If He would render Himself as a guilt offering,
He will see His offspring,
He will prolong His days,
And the good pleasure of the Lord will prosper in His hand.
[11] As a result of the anguish of His soul,
He will see it and be satisfied;
By His knowledge the Righteous One,
My Servant, will justify the many,
As He will bear their iniquities.
Can't you see that Jesus bore our iniquities, don't you see that
this is repeated so many times that you will GET IT!!!
[12] Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great,
And He will divide the booty with the strong;
This will happen when Jesus returns.
No, you may not believe it and in fact most Jews will not
until they see Jesus return and mourn for Him as for an
only son when He stands on the Mount of Olives as spoken by
the Prophet Zachariah.
Because He poured out Himself to death,
And was numbered with the transgressors;
Yet He Himself bore the sin of many,
And interceded for the transgressors.
If you can not understand God's word and you do want to know
what it means then ask God for wisdom and I am sure that
He will give it to you.
Dan K.
Don Stockman
> Don Stockman wrote:
> "Oh, Frodo - give me THE RING! Give me THE RING!"
I can't give you THE RING. We hardly know each other. For all I know, you
might be 45 and I might be 20, or you might be 20 and I might be 45.
But I'll tell you what. I also have the three. I can give you one of
those.
Chris Mauritz
> "Love thy neighbor...," why have so many thousands been killed in the name
> of Jesus?
Or Allah...or....you name it. Religious zealots of any flavor seem
to have a knack to trouncing other people's life/liberty in an effort
to enforce their version of the truth.
C
--
Chris Mauritz | Network Security & Design
Network Engineer | 56k-T3 connectivity to the Net.
ri...@mordor.net <--fun biz--> | http://www.new-york.net/
Don Stockman
In nyc.general Amazon <ama...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Don Stockman wrote:
> >
> > In nyc.general Amazon <ama...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >
> > > I guess you did not understand Isaiah 53, it clearly states that Messiah
> > > must die and that because of His willingness to die He shall be rewarded
> > > by God.
> >
> > I guess you cannot read, since it says nothing of the kind.
> >
> > I also guess that you cannot think, since the Jews who were
> > praying for the Messiah to come and redeem them were not praying for
> > someone to come along, get himself killed, and then come sometime again in
> > the next few thousand years. This bizarre reading of Isaiah 53 occurred
> > only way after he got himself killed.
> Ok, here it is again, try reading it again, maybe you'll get it
> this time around. Let me go over it with you.
> Isaiah 53:1-12
> [3] He was despised and forsaken of men,
> A man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief;
> Does this sound like a glorious Messiah to you?
You are right. It certainly does not sound at all like the life of Jesus,
if he existed. The Hebrew phrase (you are aware of Hebrew, aren't you?) is
"ish makh'ovot vidua holi", referring to a man of constant, long-lasting
afflictions and cannot be referring to anguish, however intense, which
lasted but a few hours, or even days.
For once I have to agree with you. Although Isaiah 53 is not in fact
referring to the Messiah, if it *were* referring to the Messiah, it
couldn't be referring to Jesus, since he certainly does not fit within
these parameters.
Thank you for pointing this out.
P.S. The "Servant of the Lord", when used elsewhere in Isaiah, clearly and
unambiguously refers to the people of Israel-- See 41:8-9, 44:1,2,21,26,
45:4, 48:20.
Don Stockman
In nyc.general Chris Mauritz <ri...@ritz.mordor.net> wrote:
> In nyc.general Mark Weinstock <Wo...@interactive.net> wrote:
> > Just a question, but if the primary teaching of Judeo/Christian belief is
> > "Love thy neighbor...," why have so many thousands been killed in the name
> > of Jesus?
> Or Allah...or....you name it. Religious zealots of any flavor seem
> to have a knack to trouncing other people's life/liberty in an effort
> to enforce their version of the truth.
And especially in this case it is tragic.
For Christians claim that Jesus was the Messiah, and everyone knows that
the Messiah is supposed to bring about world peace. Not only did Jesus
not accomplish this, but the millions of dead have actually been murdered
by people acting in the name of Jesus.
Amazon
Mark Weinstock wrote:
>
> Just a question, but if the primary teaching of Judeo/Christian
> belief is "Love thy neighbor...," why have so many thousands been
> killed in the name of Jesus?
murdered in the name of various isms and ideologies.
Evil men take a good concept and twist it for their own ends.
Christ did not command His people to make war or kill in His name.
However, the Russians murdered millions of Ukrainians, Balts,
Christians and other nationalities in the name of a humanistic ideology
called communism. Likewise the Chinese did the same. The Japanese
murdered millions of Chinese, Vietnamese and many other
nationalities in the name of their Emperor and their ideology
of their national superiority. The Muslims also spread their
religion by "fire and sword". And the Jews also committed
genocide when they entered the Holy Land did they not? But the
Jews, and I also, believe that God told them to exact vengeance
on those nations on God's behalf. BTW if you read Revelation
Chapter 19 you will see that when Christ returns He will subdue
the Earth by force where nations do not submit to Him peacefully.
It also reveals that in Daniel Chapter 2.
We should also not forget about Hitler and the atrocities which
he perpetrated against Christians and Jews in the name of his
twisted "humanistic" ideology. I had met German Christians whose
parents spent the whole war in jail because they, out of a Christian
conscience, resisted Hitler and his Nazi regime.
*People can always find a reason to excuse killing to perpetrate
their own wishes and to dominate their neighbors, whether it be
a religion or a humanistic ideology.*
> Mark
Dan K.
Amazon
Susan Cohen wrote:
>
> Maya Botvinnik wrote:
>
> > If you want to know about Jesus, you can always read Gospel and be free
> > from any false rumors.
>
> Big Hint: you can't use something to prove itself
>
> > Jesus did not claim himself as a Jew - he claimed
> > that people are equal before God. Actually, he wasn't accepted as a proper Jew:
> > "Your mother is Galilean, and your father is unknown" - that was the end of
> > a religious discussion with Judaic priests.
>
> Whatever. This means nothing in terms of actual proof one way or the other.
>
> > Technically speaking, for them he was
> > only stepson of a Jew. Only now, when he is famous, many Jews agreed to count him
> > as a Jew - not to learn about him and accept his teaching, but to gain his fame.
>
> Crap. If anything, out of kindness we agree to say that if he was a person, he was
> undoubtedly Jewish. There is absolutely no proof that he even existed. If you want to
> know the truth, there are even those of us who are convinced he's a construct of the
> imagination of some greedy "televangelist" types.
Yeah, right they had "televangelists" during the days of
the Roman Empire. And Jesus's followers were willing to
die a horrible death rather than deny that they saw Him
after He rose from the dead because they were "greedy".
Dan K.
Because Jesus is alive you can know Him,
as the bumper sticker says, "Don't get caught without Him".
Amazon
Don Stockman wrote:
>
> In nyc.general Amazon <ama...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > Don Stockman wrote:
> > >
> > > In nyc.general Amazon <ama...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > >
> > > > I guess you did not understand Isaiah 53, it clearly states that Messiah
> > > > must die and that because of His willingness to die He shall be rewarded
> > > > by God.
> > >
> > > I guess you cannot read, since it says nothing of the kind.
> > >
> > > I also guess that you cannot think, since the Jews who were
> > > praying for the Messiah to come and redeem them were not praying for
> > > someone to come along, get himself killed, and then come sometime again in
> > > the next few thousand years. This bizarre reading of Isaiah 53 occurred
> > > only way after he got himself killed.
>
> > Ok, here it is again, try reading it again, maybe you'll get it
> > this time around. Let me go over it with you.
>
> > Isaiah 53:1-12
>
> > [3] He was despised and forsaken of men,
> > A man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief;
>
> > Does this sound like a glorious Messiah to you?
>
> You are right. It certainly does not sound at all like the life of Jesus,
> if he existed. The Hebrew phrase (you are aware of Hebrew, aren't you?) is
> "ish makh'ovot vidua holi", referring to a man of constant, long-lasting
> afflictions and cannot be referring to anguish, however intense, which
> lasted but a few hours, or even days.
As the Holy One of God, I believe that Jesus suffered His whole life
living in this Sin Sick World of hate, lies, oppression, sickness and
disease. He came the first time as the Sin offering for mankind, He
will return as the King of Kings and Lord of Lords to bring in God's
Everlasting Kingdom which is coming soon, I believe that we are almost
in the "toes" of the statue in Nebuchanezzars dream.
Daniel 2:29-45
"As for you, O king, while on your bed your thoughts turned to what
would take place in the future; and He who reveals mysteries has made
known to you what will take place. [30] "But as for me, this mystery has
not been revealed to me for any wisdom residing in me more than in any
other living man, but for the purpose of making the interpretation known
to the king, and that you may understand the thoughts of your mind.
[31] "You, O king, were looking and behold, there was a single great
statue; that statue, which was large and of extraordinary splendor, was
standing in front of you, and its appearance was awesome. [32] "The head
of that statue was made of fine gold, its breast and its arms of silver,
its belly and its thighs of bronze, [33] its legs of iron, its feet
partly of iron and partly of clay. [34] "You continued looking until a
stone was cut out without hands, and it struck the statue on its feet of
iron and clay, and crushed them. [35] "Then the iron, the clay, the
bronze, the silver and the gold were crushed all at the same time, and
became like chaff from the summer threshing floors; and the wind carried
them away so that not a trace of them was found. But the stone that
struck the statue became a great mountain and filled the whole earth.
[36] "This was the dream; now we shall tell its interpretation
before the king. [37] "You, O king, are the king of kings, to whom the
God of heaven has given the kingdom, the power, the strength, and the
glory; [38] and wherever the sons of men dwell, or the beasts of the
field, or the birds of the sky, He has given them into your hand and has
caused you to rule over them all. You are the head of gold. [39] "And
after you there will arise another kingdom inferior to you, then another
third kingdom of bronze, which will rule over all the earth. [40] "Then
there will be a fourth kingdom as strong as iron; inasmuch as iron
crushes and shatters all things, so, like iron that breaks in pieces, it
will crush and break all these in pieces. [41] "And in that you saw the
feet and toes, partly of potter's clay and partly of iron, it will be a
divided kingdom; but it will have in it the toughness of iron, inasmuch
as you saw the iron mixed with common clay. [42] "And as the toes of the
feet were partly of iron and partly of pottery, so some of the kingdom
will be strong and part of it will be brittle. [43] "And in that you saw
the iron mixed with common clay, they will combine with one another in
the seed of men; but they will not adhere to one another, even as iron
does not combine with pottery. [44] "And in the days of those kings the
God of heaven will set up a kingdom which will never be destroyed, and
that kingdom will not be left for another people; it will crush and put
an end to all these kingdoms, but it will itself endure forever. [45]
"Inasmuch as you saw that a stone was cut out of the mountain without
hands and that it crushed the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver,
and the gold, the great God has made known to the king what will take
place in the future; so the dream is true, and its interpretation is
trustworthy."
> For once I have to agree with you. Although Isaiah 53 is not in fact
> referring to the Messiah, if it *were* referring to the Messiah, it
> couldn't be referring to Jesus, since he certainly does not fit within
> these parameters.
I am convinced that He did.
> Thank you for pointing this out.
>
> P.S. The "Servant of the Lord", when used elsewhere in Isaiah, clearly > and unambiguously refers to the people of Israel-- See 41:8-9,
> 44:1,2,21,26, 45:4, 48:20.
Yes, you are absolutely right, God sometimes called the nation of Israel
His Servant, but that does not mean that everytime the Scriptures use
the term "servant" that it is referring to the nation. BTW God called
Cyrus His anointed even though Cyrus was not Jewish, did not know God
and no priest poured oil over his head, 45:1-7.
Dan K.
And Jesus was more than just a man:
John 1:1-14
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the
Word was God. [2] He was in the beginning with God. [3] All things came
into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has
come into being. [4] In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.
[5] And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not
comprehend it.
[6] There came a man, sent from God, whose name was John. [7] He
came for a witness, that he might bear witness of the light, that all
might believe through him. [8] He was not the light, but came that he
might bear witness of the light.
[9] There was the true light which, coming into the world,
enlightens every man. [10] He was in the world, and the world was made
through Him, and the world did not know Him. [11] He came to His own,
and those who were His own did not receive Him. [12] But as many as
received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even
to those who believe in His name, [13] who were born not of blood, nor
of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
[14] And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld
His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace
and truth."
DragonSlayer
Mark Weinstock wrote in message ...
>Just a question, but if the primary teaching of Judeo/Christian belief is
>"Love thy neighbor...," why have so many thousands been killed in the name
>of Jesus?
Are we forgetting the millions killed in the name of Karl Marx, Lenin,
Stalin, Mao et al
--
Dragon Slayer
Life is like an onion, you peel it layer by layer
And at times you weep!
>
>--
>Mark wo...@interactive.net mw...@andrew.cmu.edu
>**********************************************************************
>How can you be in two places at once, when you're not anywhere at all?
>**********************************************************************
>
Reuven Singer
DragonSlayer wrote
"Are we forgetting the millions killed in the name of Karl Marx, Lenin,
Stalin, Mao et al"
No, but their adherents are not proselytizing on this sig at the moment
Reuven Singer
It sounds like the standard reference that Isaiah and Jeremiah make that the
people Israel is the suffering servant of G-d. This you hide by your phony
capitalizations of "He" to imply a single individual. We are talking about
the people's suffering- rendered by a metaphor to the suffering of a
servant.
Politico
In message <6hthe7$5ae$1...@news.netvision.net.il>,
Reuven Singer wrote this:
>It sounds like the standard reference that Isaiah and >Jeremiah make that the people Israel is the suffering >servant of G-d. This you hide by your phony
>capitalizations of "He" to imply a single individual.
>We are talking about the people's suffering- rendered by >a metaphor to the suffering of a servant.
"WE" may be talking about that but Isaiah didn't at all!
If it was a metaphor it would tell you that it was a metaphor.
Get a clue!
--
Spam Free Usenet Posting Via http://www.fulldisclosure.org/spamfree.html
Don Stockman
In nyc.general Politico <laya...@dustmen.com> wrote:
> In message <6hthe7$5ae$1...@news.netvision.net.il>,
> Reuven Singer wrote this:
> >It sounds like the standard reference that Isaiah and >Jeremiah make that the people Israel is the suffering >servant of G-d. This you hide by your phony
> >capitalizations of "He" to imply a single individual.
> >We are talking about the people's suffering- rendered by >a metaphor to the suffering of a servant.
> "WE" may be talking about that but Isaiah didn't at all!
> If it was a metaphor it would tell you that it was a metaphor.
> Get a clue!
No, why don't you get a clue. If in most of the rest of Isaiah it is
referring to the people of Israel when it says ""servant of the Lord",
then we should be predisposed to regard any occurrence of the phrase
"servant of the Lord" as meaning that, absent extraordinarily persuasive
reasons.
Instead of such persuasive reasons, we get no reasons at all.
How do you go about deciding whether a particular Biblical passage refers
to the Messiah? There is nothing--absolutely nothing--in Isaiah 53 to
indicate that the "servant" referred to in it is the king of the house of
David who is the Messiah. Nothing escept fanciful thinking.
Don Stockman
In nyc.general Amazon <ama...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > > [3] He was despised and forsaken of men,
> > > A man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief;
> >
> > > Does this sound like a glorious Messiah to you?
> >
> > You are right. It certainly does not sound at all like the life of Jesus,
> > if he existed. The Hebrew phrase (you are aware of Hebrew, aren't you?) is
> > "ish makh'ovot vidua holi", referring to a man of constant, long-lasting
> > afflictions and cannot be referring to anguish, however intense, which
> > lasted but a few hours, or even days.
> As the Holy One of God, I believe that Jesus suffered His whole life
> living in this Sin Sick World of hate, lies, oppression, sickness and
> disease.
Blah, blah, blah. You know, what you think is not really relevant. What
would be relevant would be if you understood the actual Hebrew text, and
the meaning of those Hebrew words. By the way. cute choice of phrase with
"Sin Sick World."
But thanks for playing. We have some nice parting gifts for you.
Amazon
Don Stockman wrote:
>
> In nyc.general Amazon <ama...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > > > [3] He was despised and forsaken of men,
> > > > A man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief;
> > >
> > > > Does this sound like a glorious Messiah to you?
> > >
> > > You are right. It certainly does not sound at all like the life of Jesus,
> > > if he existed. The Hebrew phrase (you are aware of Hebrew, aren't you?) is
> > > "ish makh'ovot vidua holi", referring to a man of constant, long-lasting
> > > afflictions and cannot be referring to anguish, however intense, which
> > > lasted but a few hours, or even days.
>
> > As the Holy One of God, I believe that Jesus suffered His whole life
> > living in this Sin Sick World of hate, lies, oppression, sickness and
> > disease.
>
> would be relevant would be if you understood the actual Hebrew text, and
> the meaning of those Hebrew words. By the way. cute choice of phrase with
> "Sin Sick World."
I must confess, it is not original, I had heard it somewhere,
but it is very true.
> But thanks for playing. We have some nice parting gifts for you.
In any case as I said before, both Christians and Jews are looking
forward to the Messianic Age, and it seems that both many Christians
and many Jews believe that it will be soon, hope to see you there.
Amazon
Don Stockman wrote:
>
> According to the Jewish Bible, one of the central requirements
> for the Messiah is that he must be a descendant of King David. All
> of the major Messianic prophecies indicate this. In the 33rd
> chapter of Jeremiah, G-d says that the House of David will never
> lack a man to sit on the throne of the House of Israel.
.............cut.................
>
> You are confronted with a choice: you can believe what G-d said
> when he promised the Jewish people a Messiah from the House of
> David through Solomon his son, or you can decide that G-d was lying
> when He made these promises.
Sorry for the delay, I will try to get to this as soon as
I get a chance.
Dan K.
Amazon
Reuven Singer wrote:
>
> It sounds like the standard reference that Isaiah and Jeremiah make that the
> people Israel is the suffering servant of G-d. This you hide by your phony
> capitalizations of "He" to imply a single individual.
It is not my capitalizations, that is from the New American Standard
Bible. The Tanakh does not capitalize the pronouns except when it is
the first word of the sentence.
> We are talking about
> the people's suffering- rendered by a metaphor to the suffering of a
> servant.
I suppose that one could look at it that way, but I, as well as most
Christians, see this as referring to an indiviual because of the
context of the text. Christians also believe that Jesus fulfilled
most of this scripture and will fulfill the rest when He returns.
In any case, both Christians and Jews are looking forward towards
the Messianic Age where God and Man and Nature will all be
reconciled.
Don Stockman
> >
> > It sounds like the standard reference that Isaiah and Jeremiah make that the
> > people Israel is the suffering servant of G-d. This you hide by your phony
> > capitalizations of "He" to imply a single individual.
> It is not my capitalizations, that is from the New American Standard
> Bible. The Tanakh does not capitalize the pronouns except when it is
> the first word of the sentence.
Well, God did not write the New American Standard Bible in English.
> > We are talking about
> > the people's suffering- rendered by a metaphor to the suffering of a
> > servant.
> I suppose that one could look at it that way, but I, as well as most
> Christians, see this as referring to an indiviual because of the
> context of the text.
You see it that way because you want to, not because of any rational
reason. It's already been pointed out to you that the reference "servant"
as used in Isaiah invariably refers to the people of Israel.
You are simply using circular reasoning. There is not context in that
verse which refers to the Messiah. It's all in your head.
> Christians also believe that Jesus fulfilled
> most of this scripture and will fulfill the rest when He returns.
Jews, who were around before the Christians came along, were praying for a
Messiah to redeem them. Not to show up, get killed, and die, and then come
back at some indeterminate point in the future.
This reinterpretation of what the Messiah stands for occurred only after
Jesus failed to do anything that the Messiah is supposed to do.
You should have created another name for Jesus. But "Messiah" ain't one of
them. And "God" is certainly the most laughable and blasphemous name.
Reuven Singer
Politico wrote
"WE" may be talking about that but Isaiah didn't at all!
Do you expect Isaiah to say to you . Now pay attention I am now going to
give you a metaphor. The prophets will clearly writing for a more
intelligent and aware audience than many who read them today. Much of this
section of Isaiah deals with Israel the people as the suffering servant
punished for sins by Hashem but ultimately to be rewarded. Xtians
characteristically try to corrupt the test to prop up their own fables.
Renee
Amazon wrote:
>
> Don Stockman wrote:
> >
> > In nyc.general Amazon <ama...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >
> Ok, here it is again, try reading it again, maybe you'll get it
> this time around. Let me go over it with you.
>
> Isaiah 53:1-12
> Who has believed our message?
> And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
>
> [2] For He grew up before Him like a tender shoot,
> And like a root out of parched ground;
> He has no stately form or majesty
> That we should look upon Him,
> Nor appearance that we should be attracted to Him.
> [3] He was despised and forsaken of men,
> A man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief;
>
> Does this sound like a glorious Messiah to you?
Nope, and it doesn't sound like J either. According to the NT, J was
handsome and had lots of adoring fans.
>
> And like one from whom men hide their face,
> He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.
>
> Will He be accepted or rejected???
>
> [4] Surely our griefs He Himself bore,
> And our sorrows He carried;
> Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken,
> Smitten of God, and afflicted.
>
> What does this say to you?
> Does this sound like He will at first coming be a conquerer?
> I think not!
>
> [5] But He was pierced through for our transgressions,
> He was crushed for our iniquities;
>
> Does this tell you that He will conquer or be crushed?
He was "pierced through." That's cute. Really cute. It actually says
"from our transgression" and "from our iniquities."
>
> The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him,
> And by His scourging we are healed.
>
> What does this mean, that by His scourging WE ARE HEALED???
Actually, it says "we were healed."
[...]
> [7] He was oppressed and He was afflicted,
> Yet He did not open His mouth;
> Like a lamb that is led to slaughter,
> And like a sheep that is silent before its shearers,
> So He did not open His mouth.
> [8] By oppression and judgment He was taken away;
> And as for His generation, who considered
> That He was cut off out of the land of the living,
>
> How is it that you can not understand that this means that
> the Messiah was to be killed?
Because it doesn't mention the messiah anywhere in proximity to this
chapter.
>
> For the transgression of my people to whom the stroke was due?
>
> Don't you understand that this means that the stroke was due
> to the Jews but that Jesus took you punishment for you???
Well, if it actually said that, maybe. But first of all, it is the
kings of nations who are speaking here, and the verse is correctly
translated "FROM the transgression of my people, THEY were stricken."
>
> [9] His grave was assigned with wicked men,
> Yet He was with a rich man in His death,
>
> Can't you see that Jesus was buried in a rich man's grave?
HAHAHA!!! Can you read your own translation? It says he was with the
wicked in his grave, and the rich in his death. But the J of the NT was
with the rich in his grave, and with the wicked in his death. Besides,
it says "in his deaths" plural.
Renee
Susan Cohen
Amazon wrote:
> > You can follow this bastard straight into the ground, but keep your crap
> > about him off the Jewish newsgroups.
>
> As I said elsewhere, Jesus is a relevant topic on a Jewish newsgroup,
Not in the context in which you are discussing him. A look at our charter would
not come amiss - I know your ISP will be checking into it, themselves.
> however, you do not need to read my posts if they offend you.
Have some manners, & don't post here in the first place.
Susan
Charles F. Coen
You have been asked twice not to spam other newsgroups. Now things
could turn ugly unless you stop.
Chuck Coen cc...@pacbell.net
Amazon
Susan Cohen wrote:
>
> Amazon wrote:
>
> > > You can follow this bastard straight into the ground, but keep your crap
> > > about him off the Jewish newsgroups.
> >
> > As I said elsewhere, Jesus is a relevant topic on a Jewish newsgroup,
>
> Not in the context in which you are discussing him. A look at our charter would
> not come amiss - I know your ISP will be checking into it, themselves.
>
> > however, you do not need to read my posts if they offend you.
>
> Have some manners, & don't post here in the first place.
I believe that in the USA we still have free speech,
if you do not want to discuss whether Jesus was the Jewish
Messiah or the Jewish Tanakh then don't, I am discussing it
with others than just you. If you don't want to continue
our discussion, you are free to stop.
I am not forcing my views on you, so stop your threats and stop
responding to my posts.
> Susan