So much for "ukrainian" scater Oksana Bauil
Russ Mestechkin
Skater Baiul tells Oprah she drank before driving
05:03 p.m. Feb 07, 1997 EST
HARTFORD, Feb 7 (Reuter) - Olympic figure skating champion Oksana
Baiul said on Friday that she had four or five drinks before crashing
her car last month in Bloomfield, Connecticut.
On the programme, Winfrey asked: ``How many drinks had you had?''
``I think a lot,'' said Baiul. ``I think I would say ... four or five,
yeah ... I was drinking Long Island iced tea.''
``You had to be drunk if you had four Long Island iced teas,'' Winfrey
said.
``I'm a Russian,'' she answered.
-------------
Otozh, gospoda patrioty.
__
RM
Bohdan Peter Rekshynskyj
In article <5dtf9h$c...@chaos.dac.neu.edu>, ru...@gateway.ece.neu.edu (Russ
Mestechkin) wrote:
This is funny!
When she wins, she's a Ukrainian.
When she is DRUNK, she is a RUSSIAN.
;-)
Bohdan Petro Rekshyns'kyi
Bohdan Peter Rekshynskyj
> Skater Baiul tells Oprah she drank before driving
> 05:03 p.m. Feb 07, 1997 EST
>
> HARTFORD, Feb 7 (Reuter) - Olympic figure skating champion Oksana
> Baiul said on Friday that she had four or five drinks before crashing
> her car last month in Bloomfield, Connecticut.
>
> On the programme, Winfrey asked: ``How many drinks had you had?''
>
> ``I think a lot,'' said Baiul. ``I think I would say ... four or five,
> yeah ... I was drinking Long Island iced tea.''
>
> ``You had to be drunk if you had four Long Island iced teas,'' Winfrey
> said.
>
> ``I'm a Russian,'' she answered.
>
> -------------
>
> Otozh, gospoda patrioty.
>
>
> __
> RM
This is funny!
When she WINS, she is UKRAINIAN.
When she is DRUNK, she is a RUSSIAN!
alex
In article <5dtf9h$c...@chaos.dac.neu.edu>, ru...@gateway.ece.neu.edu says...
>
>Skater Baiul tells Oprah she drank before driving
>05:03 p.m. Feb 07, 1997 EST
>
>HARTFORD, Feb 7 (Reuter) - Olympic figure skating champion Oksana
>Baiul said on Friday that she had four or five drinks before crashing
>her car last month in Bloomfield, Connecticut.
>
>On the programme, Winfrey asked: ``How many drinks had you had?''
>
>``I think a lot,'' said Baiul. ``I think I would say ... four or five,
>yeah ... I was drinking Long Island iced tea.''
>
>``You had to be drunk if you had four Long Island iced teas,'' Winfrey
>said.
>
>``I'm a Russian,'' she answered.
>
>-------------
>
>Otozh, gospoda patrioty.
>
>
>__
>RM
...as would say the "Ukrainian" conscious Yury Muharsky, "Genghis Khan"@id.net (?)
"Lena" from Iowa, Kagalenko, the late Vladimir Levchenko from Australia (who
threatened the Ukrainian Nationalist George Rycar...
and many others....
and *most* denationalized (in terms of *ethnic* Ukrainians)
who find themselves up on *drunk* charges in COURT and
elsewhere in a Western environment.....
After all.... everyone knows that Russians are a bunch of
drunken Asiatics that
can't handle their alcohol... right??
Enjoy @ssholes!!! :)
ujw...@aol.com
In article <NOT-FOR-EMAIL-1...@bohdan.dialup.access.net>, NOT-FO...@Tryzub.com (Bohdan Peter Rekshynskyj) writes:
>> ``You had to be drunk if you had four Long Island iced teas,'' Winfrey
>> said.
>>
>> ``I'm a Russian,'' she answered.
>>
>> -------------
>>
>> Otozh, gospoda patrioty.
>>
>>
>> __
>> RM
>
>This is funny!
>
>When she wins, she's a Ukrainian.
>When she is DRUNK, she is a RUSSIAN.
>
>
Can we give her credit for a wry sense of humor?
That would actually make her British when sober.
L.Gordeev
On Thu, 13 Feb 1997, Lena wrote:
> An interesting phenomenon indeed. Why would that be that many Ukrainians
> raised outside of Ukraine prefer to identify themselves with their host
> nations?
Hmmm ... waking up in the neighborhood? This would serve as a proof
that something like Ukrainian Nation just does not exist (yet).
I always wondered about that childish idea to create new nations/states
when things go badly. This is like saying: "We're poor, underdeveloped,
so let us cut out our village from the rest". What would be the outcome?
Clearly, more poverty and underdevelopment (say, African syndrom).
What a strange idea it is, to guess, that a couple of Gogol's,
Shevchenko's or other dead intellectuals born in the same village would
suffice as a proof of national identity? *Everybody* is trying to identify
him(her)self with a prosperous environment, i.e. "their host-nations", if
it is rich, imperial and/or just better developed/organised.
What is the alternative?
Surely, *poor* Bourbons or Habsburgs can be proud of their blue blood.
But what if the heritage is less impressive? Where are those imaginary
Ukrainian Kings, Emperors, Conquerors, Apostles, Monks, whoever?
The very name Rus' makes this game impossible to win (against Russia).
[Just an outsider's penetrating opinion - easy to ignore.]
L.G
B.COPOKIH
Bohdan Peter Rekshynskyj wrote:
>
> This is funny!
>
> When she wins, she's a Ukrainian.
> When she is DRUNK, she is a RUSSIAN.
>
> ;-)
>
> Bohdan Petro Rekshyns'kyi
Do not deceive yourself, Bohdane.
When did she ever say she had anything to do with
true Ukrainians like yourself?
-V.
al...@agate.net
In article
<Pine.HPP.3.91.970214...@commlink.zdv.uni-tuebingen.de>,
Indeed.....
Russia should rejoin and go back to Mongolia.... very appropriate in
view of Russia's history, culture and mores...
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
Vladimir Smirnov
: Bohdan Peter Rekshynskyj wrote:
: >
: > This is funny!
: >
: > When she wins, she's a Ukrainian.
: > When she is DRUNK, she is a RUSSIAN.
I would put it another way: "When she is IN TROUBLE, she is
Russian".
- Smirnov
Dima Volodin
Or how do you like this version: "It is not Russians who create the
reputation of die hard drunkards for Russians".
>- Smirnov
Dima
Alex S. Katz
In article <330dd1cf.20488545@localhost>, Dima Volodin <d...@dvv.ru> wrote:
>Or how do you like this version: "It is not Russians who create the
>reputation of die hard drunkards for Russians".
'Course not. It's the Tatars from whom Russians learned how
to distill spirits in the 16th century that are at fault.
Katz
--
- And if a finger is cut off, three grivnas for the offense.
- For the moustache twelve grivnas, and for the beard twelve grivnas.
_Russkaya Pravda_ (XI century)
Rostyk Lewyckyj
In article <8559467...@dejanews.com>, <al...@agate.net> wrote:
|
|Russia should rejoin and go back to Mongolia.... very appropriate in
|view of Russia's history, culture and mores...
|
Also there is no need to be so grossly insulting. It only reflects
badly on you.
sasha
NOT-FO...@Tryzub.com (Bohdan Peter Rekshynskyj) wrote:
>When she wins, she's a Ukrainian.
>When she is DRUNK, she is a RUSSIAN.
The guy who was in the car with her (an Armenian scater) claims that
she wasn't particularly drunk. He says she was listening to Madonna
while driving and kind of began dancing behind the wheel, 'coz she's
crazy about Madonna (what a taste!). Reminds me a scene from "Planes,
Trains and Automobiles".
Sasha
Dima Volodin
On Fri, 14 Feb 1997 16:11:05 CST, a...@netcom.com (Alex S. Katz) wrote:
>In article <330dd1cf.20488545@localhost>, Dima Volodin <d...@dvv.ru> wrote:
>
>>Or how do you like this version: "It is not Russians who create the
>>reputation of die hard drunkards for Russians".
>
>'Course not. It's the Tatars from whom Russians learned how
>to distill spirits in the 16th century that are at fault.
Are you saying Bayul is of Tartar origin? Does it have something to do
with the turko-okrainian theory of one S. Viznyuk?
>Katz
Dima
Dima Volodin
Yeah, right. 0.12 (or something like that) - "not particularly drunk".
Just make yourself a home project - get drunk to this stage and report
on your ability to "operate heavy machinery". To simplify the task:
Long Island Iced Tea
Amount Measure Ingredient -- Preparation Method
-------- ------------ --------------------------------
1/2 ounce vodka
1/2 ounce gin
1/2 ounce light rum
1/4 ounce tequila
1/2 ounce triple sec
1 tablespoon fresh lemon juice -- or to taste
6 ounces cola -- or to fill
cracked ice
ice cubes
Have four or five of these.
Me, I couldn't care less what the dumbass behind the wheel of a
Mercedes is doing - dancing, drinking coffee, chatting on the phone,
or just having his/her own drunken fun. If he or she is capable of
ramming the car into a light pole at 100MPH, he or she simply doesn't
belong on the road. Prestupnik dolzhen sidet', no matter who he or she
is - Russian, Ukrainian, or Klingon.
>Sasha
Dima
who drinks and drives safely
AlMueller
<<Surely, *poor* Bourbons or Habsburgs can be proud of their blue blood.
But what if the heritage is less impressive? Where are those imaginary
Ukrainian Kings, Emperors, Conquerors, Apostles, Monks, whoever?
The very name Rus' makes this game impossible to win (against Russia).>>
Let's not forget that the United States, Great Britain, and France were
all invented. A group of people got together, sat down, created a couple
of traditions, looked back in time and made a history for themselves, and
voila, a few decades later there was a nation. So, sorry, friend, I gotta
disagree. There is a Ukrainian nation in Ukraine. The diaspora don't
count. But I guarantee that, if you look to Western Ukraine and then to
Eastern Ukraine, you find two separate peoples developing into nations as
we speak.
Yours,
Al Mueller
University of Iowa
almu...@aol.com
OKSAS
On Fri, 14 Feb 1997, Dima Volodin wrote:
>
> Are you saying Bayul is of Tartar origin? Does it have something to do
> with the turko-okrainian theory of one S. Viznyuk?
She is an orphan, leave the girl alone.
Alex S. Katz
In article <3311e35b.24981634@localhost>, Dima Volodin <d...@dvv.ru> wrote:
>>>Or how do you like this version: "It is not Russians who create the
>>>reputation of die hard drunkards for Russians".
>>'Course not. It's the Tatars from whom Russians learned how
>>to distill spirits in the 16th century that are at fault.
>Are you saying Bayul is of Tartar origin? Does it have something to do
>with the turko-okrainian theory of one S. Viznyuk?
No, what I'm saying is that if you want to blame
someone else, there are lots of better targets.
>Dima
al...@agate.net
In article <5e2j9f$rjo$1...@newz.oit.unc.edu>,
Actually, the Mongols are indeed fascinating....
One author (??) did a comparative study of the legal structures
and laws of Kyivan Rus with the laws and practices of
Moscovy, Russia....
Russia was very enriched by it's Mongol based culture,
so to speak...
You had capital punishment for the most trivial of crimes,
in Moscovy Russia,
as opposed to, interestingly, primarily monetary punishment
for crimes and traspasses in Kyivan Rus (modern day Ukraine).
When the Rus went to Russia, from Ukraine, they "Slavicized"
many of the natives
and brought with them their legal system to the native
Finno-Ugrian tribesmen and sundry Asiatics living in
what is now called present day Russia...
Sure enough.... the phrase, "yop tvoi mat"
(fuck your mother), such a very prominent phrase/feature of
Russian cursing, also has its root in Russo-Mongolian culture.
It seems that if the taxes/tribute were deemed insufficient, the wives
of the villagers etc... were raped....
Quite a psychological scar on the victims and family....if widespread,
which it was, a psychologically, "cultural scar" ...
Hence the phrase and commonality of use... people would
taunt each other with the shame, hurt
and guilt of it.... abuse is *almost* a hereditary trait...
Moscovy rose to prominence under the Mongols for their
unswerving loyalty and zeal in service to the Khans...
This loyalty resulted in their becoming the chief tax collection
authority for the Mongols in their area.
Moscow's viciousness and brutality in collecting taxes
(stealing what they could of it)
disgusted even the Mongols, even though they used and adopted
the same methods, such as rape etc... just the excesses of
those same methods, appalled even the Mongols...
Russian historians politely skirt the story and speak
of the "cleverness" of the princes of Moscow in "surviving"
the Mongols...
In point of fact, they became, "more Mongol then the Mongols",
in aping the dress, manners, laws, customs of their rulers..
The "rationale" was the same for the Serbians and the Russian volunteers
when they went and raped even the youngest Bosnian Moslem girls
(down to 2 years old!). To destroy and permenantly scar a culture
and people, to leave psychiatric causauties, an effect which
would cripple for untold generations... Very effective...
This "tactic" was devised by Radovan Karadez, a Serbian physician,
whose specialty was psychiatric medicine (later stripped of his
credentials in psychiatry by the World Psychiatric Congress
over the objections and votes of the Russian psychiatrists).
alex
Dima Volodin
On Fri, 14 Feb 1997 19:47:58 CST, a...@netcom.com (Alex S. Katz) wrote:
>In article <3311e35b.24981634@localhost>, Dima Volodin <d...@dvv.ru> wrote:
>
>>>>Or how do you like this version: "It is not Russians who create the
>>>>reputation of die hard drunkards for Russians".
>
>>>'Course not. It's the Tatars from whom Russians learned how
>>>to distill spirits in the 16th century that are at fault.
>
>>Are you saying Bayul is of Tartar origin? Does it have something to do
>>with the turko-okrainian theory of one S. Viznyuk?
>
>No, what I'm saying is that if you want to blame
>someone else, there are lots of better targets.
Blame for what?
>Katz
Anyway, relax, take a deep breath, get a life.
Dima
sasha
d...@dvv.ru (Dima Volodin) wrote:
>>The guy who was in the car with her (an Armenian scater) claims that
>>she wasn't particularly drunk. He says she was listening to Madonna
>>while driving and kind of began dancing behind the wheel, 'coz she's
>>crazy about Madonna (what a taste!). Reminds me a scene from "Planes,
>>Trains and Automobiles".
>Yeah, right. 0.12 (or something like that) - "not particularly drunk".
>Just make yourself a home project - get drunk to this stage and report
>on your ability to "operate heavy machinery".
First of all, direct your doubts, indignation and $0.02 to Bayul
and/or that Armenian fella, I was just relating his account.
As for the substance of your message: one L.I. Iced tea contains about
50 grams of "hard liquor" (vodka equivalent). For or five of those
make it 200-250 grams of vodka equivalent. I assure you, that I drank
as much or more on many occasions and yet was able to drive safely.
And I'm not even Russian, nor Ukranian :-)
>If he or she is capable of
>ramming the car into a light pole at 100MPH, he or she simply doesn't
>belong on the road. Prestupnik dolzhen sidet', no matter who he or she
>is - Russian, Ukrainian, or Klingon.
This is very inspiring. I almost shed a tear.
Sasha
Yuri Omelchenko
>In article <8559467...@dejanews.com>, <al...@agate.net> wrote:
>|
>crap deleted
>
>Alex. What do you have against present day Mongolia and Mongols?
>Also there is no need to be so grossly insulting. It only reflects
>badly on you.
>
How can shit reflect badly on its own kind?
Simcha Streltsov
drunk/not drunk - we first have to find out where were
the hands and etc. of this mysterious Armenian -
or is it just my filthy mind?
a propos - I discussed today with a friend a history of
Jews having being guilty of making Russians - and Ukranians -
drunkards thru operating shinki in the Pale.
We came with a oneliner:
"if they would be buying books, we would be selling books"
Simcha Streltsov, _Former_ Adar Rabbi of S.C.Soviet
-------------------------
please, only Kosher lePesach homentashen
all others will be returned unopened.
p.s. This sig expired, but nobody have sent me real
homentashen anyway
Oleg N Limeshko
In article
Pine.HPP.3.91.970214...@commlink.zdv.uni-tuebingen.de>,
"L.Gordeev" <iik...@commlink.zdv.uni-tuebingen.de> wrote:
> Surely, *poor* Bourbons or Habsburgs can be proud of their blue blood.
> But what if the heritage is less impressive? Where are those imaginary
> Ukrainian Kings, Emperors, Conquerors, Apostles, Monks, whoever?
> The very name Rus' makes this game impossible to win (against Russia).
The easiest way is to rob other nations of their symbols and then bring
these "revelations" to the Internet.
> [Just an outsider's penetrating opinion - easy to ignore.]
>
> L.G
>
Oleg Limeshko
NotMyRealAddress
In article <5e5ltt$d...@news.bu.edu> sim...@bu.edu writes:
>drunk/not drunk - we first have to find out where were
>the hands and etc. of this mysterious Armenian -
>or is it just my filthy mind?
>
>a propos - I discussed today with a friend a history of
>Jews having being guilty of making Russians - and Ukranians -
>drunkards thru operating shinki in the Pale.
>
>We came with a oneliner:
>"if they would be buying books, we would be selling books"
Heh. Would you have also called out from inside of your bookstore:
"Come in, come in! The first chapter is free!" ?
It is ironic that the sale of books actually caused a lot of the
"shynky" to go permanently out of business in Halychyna in the late
1800's.
_____
Larry
fel...@umelba.triumf.ca
sasha
sim...@bu.edu (Simcha Streltsov) wrote:
>drunk/not drunk - we first have to find out where were
>the hands and etc. of this mysterious Armenian -
Are you implying that someone could have taken a sexual interest in
her?! In any event, with all due respect to Armenian nation, I don't
believe that his etc. was where you suspect it was. Or maybe I lack
imagination. :-)
>or is it just my filthy mind?
You said :-)
Sasha
Dan Korolev
al...@agate.net writes:
>Sure enough.... the phrase, "yop tvoi mat"
>(fuck your mother),
Interesting. I have never heard the expression "yop tvoi mat" in all my
years in Russia. The closest expression that exists is "esli tvoi mat
huzhe tvoego russkogo yazyka - ukhodi po-angliyski: ne proschayas'"
> such a very prominent phrase/feature of
>Russian cursing, also has its root in Russo-Mongolian culture.
Yes, especially the words "tvoi" and "mat'" are Mongolian and have no
European origin... :-)
Dan Korolyshyn
In article <8559467...@dejanews.com>
"L.Gordeev" <iik...@commlink.zdv.uni-tuebingen.de> wrote:
>> On Thu, 13 Feb 1997, Lena wrote:
>> Hmmm ... waking up in the neighborhood? This would serve as
> a proof
>> that something like Ukrainian Nation just does not exist
> (yet).
Actually from all that I've read it is the Russians who,
now that they have lost most of their empire, are having
an identity crisis. The Ukrainians who have studied their
history, whether in Ukraine or in the diaspora, are very well
aware of who they are. Indeed, they KNOW that it is they
who are the "elder brother" to the Russians and not the
other way around as the Russians have so hard tried to
convince themselves and the world. But in reality the
Russians are not only not brothers to the Ukrainians, they
are not even distant cousins being a mix of Finno-Ugric
and Mongol stock. The only reason that the Russians speak
a Slavic derivitive language today is because they were
once a part of the ancient Ukrainian Empire called
Kyivan Rus from whence the Russians today derive their
name much as the Romanians derive their name from being
once a part of the Roman Empire.
>> I always wondered about that childish idea to create new
> nations/states
>> when things go badly.
Have things really gone so badly for the Chechens?
They whipped the "mighty" Russian army and now are on
their road to building an independent state, but unlike
the Russians, they have no identity crisis and know who
they are and what they believe.
This is like saying: "We're poor,
> underdeveloped,
>> so let us cut out our village from the rest". What would be
> the outcome?
>> Clearly, more poverty and underdevelopment (say, African
> syndrom).
>> What a strange idea it is, to guess, that a couple of
> Gogol's,
>> Shevchenko's or other dead intellectuals born in the same
> village would
>> suffice as a proof of national identity?
You really are an ignoramus aren't you? The Ukrainian
identity goes back to the days of Kyivan Rus when the
Swedish Vikings created a powerful state around the area
of Kyiv which was called Rus. These Vikings united the
Slavic tribes who lived on the territory of present day
Ukraine and ruled not only the Ukrainian Slavic tribes,
but also the Slavic tribes in Bela Rus which has retained its
name to the present day and the Finno-Ugric and Slavic tribes
of what is today northeastern Russia. The Finno-Ugric and
Slavic tribes of Russia did not become a nation until
after the collapse of Kyivan Rus in 1240 AD under the tutelage
of the Mongols.
>> *Everybody* is trying to identify
>> him(her)self with a prosperous environment, i.e. "their
>> host-nations", if
>> it is rich, imperial and/or just better developed/organised.
>> What is the alternative?
>> Surely, *poor* Bourbons or Habsburgs can be proud of their
> blue blood.
>> But what if the heritage is less impressive? Where are
> those imaginary Ukrainian Kings, Emperors, Conquerors,
Apostles, Monks, whoever?
You see, you are an ignoramus and even have the courage
to admit it publically. You need to study Ukrainian history
in order to get informed about the Ukrainian people. Because
Ukraine is today a free country you can visit Ukraine and
its ancient capital Kyiv where you can learn all about Ukraine's
rich history. But if you can not afford to travel to Ukraine
you can get some good books on Ukrainian history written by
Ukrainian historians like Hrushevsky and Doroshenko among many
others who will enlighten you.
>> The very name Rus' makes this game impossible to win
> (against Russia).
You poor thing, Russia derives her name from Rus much like
the Romanians derive theirs from Rome, but would you attribute
the history of Rome to Romania? FYI Russia was know as Muscovy
until the 18ty century, and Rus was the always the area around
Kyiv. What was know as Kyivan Rus was often in the ancient
chronicles known as Rus'ki Zemli or Rus' lands of which the
northeastern part of present day Russia was a part.
>> [Just an outsider's penetrating opinion - easy to ignore.]
Outsiders need to be enlightened not ignored, isn't that what
education is all about?
>> L.G
Regards, Dan K.
Uzulo
<al...@agate.net> wrote:
>|
>|Russia should rejoin and go back to Mongolia.... very appropriate in
>|view of Russia's history, culture and mores...
>|
>>
Actually, the Mongols are indeed fascinating....
One author (??) did a comparative study of the legal structures
and laws of Kyivan Rus with the laws and practices of
Moscovy, Russia....
Russia was very enriched by it's Mongol based culture,
so to speak...
[... the rest of the nonsense deleted ...]
<<
Our great Mongol-Russia knower, again ...
--
Uzulo <ty...@cile.msk.su>
Simcha Streltsov
sasha (sa...@dragon.whoi.edu) wrote:
: >drunk/not drunk - we first have to find out where were
: >the hands and etc. of this mysterious Armenian -
: Are you implying that someone could have taken a sexual interest in
: her?!
You see, I never saw the subject of the discussion, although
I drive thru Conn-t sometimes, so I probably should be more careful...
L.Gordeev
On Fri, 14 Feb 1997 al...@agate.net wrote:
> Russia should rejoin and go back to Mongolia....
Hey alex@agate, Mongolian brides are strong and not fat! Just forget
April, rejoin Russia and go back to Mongolia to cure your sexuality.
L.G
L.Gordeev
On Mon, 17 Feb 1997, Dan Korolyshyn wrote:
> You really are an ignoramus aren't you? The Ukrainian
> identity goes back to the days of Kyivan Rus when ...
Well, well, well ... as I suspected:
"The UKRAINIAN identity goes back to the days of Kyivan RUS".
This semantical contradiction makes it very difficult (if not
impossible) to address Ukr. identity. It has nothing to do with
chauvinism or other emotional stuff (it's not my bisiness after
all) - it is the very name Ukraine which creates ambiguity, since
the word "Rus" is closer to "Russia" than to "Ukraine". It does
not help to claim that Russia stole her name. Nobody will listen.
Surely, I'm not the first person to argue in these lines.
Sometimes logic is hard to swallow.
Besides, are you really fluent in Latin? If you'll translate
*ignoramus* into Ukrainian you'll discover another contradiction
in your weird message. Ever heard of Hilbert's *ignoramus* vs.
*ignorabimus*?
L.G
al...@agate.net
In article <kdaE5q...@netcom.com>,
AH!
WRONG AGAIN DAN ! :)
THE WORDS, "tvoi" and "mat" *ARE*OF EUROPEAN ORIGIN !
THEY ARE OLD UKRAINIAN... THAT IS WHAT RUS (MODERN DAY UKRAINE)
TAUGHT THE SAVAGES WHEN THEY WENT NORTH TO WHAT
IS NOW KNOWN AS RUSSIA AND *LINGUALY* AT LEAST,
"SLAVISISED" THEM... DIDN'T YOU KNOW THAT? :-)
al...@agate.net
In article ,
k...@netcom.com (Dan Korolev) wrote:
>
> al...@agate.net writes:
>
> >Sure enough.... the phrase, "yop tvoi mat"
> >(fuck your mother),
>
> Interesting. I have never heard the expression "yop tvoi mat" in all my
> years in Russia. The closest expression that exists is "esli tvoi mat
> huzhe tvoego russkogo yazyka - ukhodi po-angliyski: ne proschayas'"
GOTTCHA AGAIN!
WRONG!
>
> > such a very prominent phrase/feature of
> >Russian cursing, also has its root in Russo-Mongolian culture.
>
> Yes, especially the words "tvoi" and "mat'" are Mongolian and have no
> European origin... :-)
AH!
WRONG AGAIN DAN ! :)
THE WORDS, "tvoi" and "mat" *ARE* OF EUROPEAN ORIGIN !
al...@agate.net
In article
<Pine.HPP.3.91.970217...@commlink.zdv.uni-tuebingen.de>,
"L.Gordeev" <iik...@commlink.zdv.uni-tuebingen.de> wrote:
>
>
> On Mon, 17 Feb 1997, Dan Korolyshyn wrote:
>
> > You really are an ignoramus aren't you? The Ukrainian
> > identity goes back to the days of Kyivan Rus when ...
>
> Well, well, well ... as I suspected:
>
> "The UKRAINIAN identity goes back to the days of Kyivan RUS".
>
> This semantical contradiction makes it very difficult (if not
> impossible) to address Ukr. identity. It has nothing to do with
> chauvinism or other emotional stuff (it's not my bisiness after
> all)
STILL DOESN'T STOP YOU THOUGH, NOW DOES IT?
> - it is the very name Ukraine which creates ambiguity, since
> the word "Rus" is closer to "Russia" than to "Ukraine". It does
> not help to claim that Russia stole her name.
AND "ROMANIA" IS CLOSER AS A WORD TO "ROME", THEN IS "ITALY"...
> Nobody will listen.
FOOLS AND MORONS DO NOT...
> Surely, I'm not the first person to argue in these lines.
NOPE...
LOTS OF STUPID SOVOKS SAY THE SAME STUPID SHIT YOU DO....
..AND LOTS OF STUPID SOVOKS KEEP REPEATING IT....
> Sometimes logic is hard to swallow.
NOW INDEED... ISN'T IT THOUGH... ?
>
> Besides, are you really fluent in Latin?
NON SEQUITOR...
> If you'll translate
> *ignoramus* into Ukrainian you'll discover another contradiction
> in your weird message. Ever heard of Hilbert's *ignoramus* vs.
> *ignorabimus*?
WHAT'S THE PRICE OF EGGS IN CHINA?
>
> L.G
al...@agate.net
In article
<Pine.HPP.3.91.970217...@commlink.zdv.uni-tuebingen.de>,
"L.Gordeev" <iik...@commlink.zdv.uni-tuebingen.de> wrote:
>
>
THEN WHY ARE YOU IN GERMANY, CHASING BIG, FAT, WHITE, WESTERN
WOMEN, IF MONGOLIAN "PIZDA" IS, AS YOU CLAIM,
BETTER THEN APRIL'S BIG FAT "PIZDA" ?
...BESIDES... I THINK I AM IN LOVE.....
BTW,
IS THAT THE BEST RUSSO-MONGOLIAN REPLY YOU CAN MAKE
USING YOUR SOVOK LOGIC IN REGARDS TO THE SUBJECT OF THIS THREAD?
MUST BE BE VERY DISAPPOINTING TO YOU....
BEING IN GERMANY, NOT EVEN ANY RUSSO-MONGOLIAN PIZDA...
GIVE APRIL A CALL...
WANT HER NUMBER?
SHE LIKES STUPID SOVOKS, STUKACHI AND ANTI-SEMITES....
Yuri Omelchenko
DKo...@gnn.com (Dan Korolyshyn) wrote:
>
>Actually from all that I've read it is the Russians who,
>now that they have lost most of their empire, are having
>an identity crisis.
Keep dreaming...or read what Bismark said once about Russia.
>But in reality the
>Russians are not only not brothers to the Ukrainians, they
>are not even distant cousins being a mix of Finno-Ugric
>and Mongol stock.
Where did you learn that? In the diaspora? Can your teachers tell
a Mongol from a Russian? A Russian from a Ukrainian? Can you?
>The only reason that the Russians speak
>a Slavic derivitive language today
> is because they were
>once a part of the ancient Ukrainian Empire called
>Kyivan Rus from whence the Russians today derive their
>name much as the Romanians derive their name from being
>once a part of the Roman Empire.
>
>
Congratulations! The Ukrainian Empire sounds solemn, really.
It is a pity that only people brought up in the diaspora are so
knowledgeable. BTW, did it ever occur to you that Ukraine (Ukraina) and
(Serb) Kraina have something in common? And why they were named so?
>
>Have things really gone so badly for the Chechens?
>They whipped the "mighty" Russian army and now are on
>their road to building an independent state, but unlike
>the Russians, they have no identity crisis and know who
>they are and what they believe.
Chechens are Klingons. They have always been on one road -- the path of
war. If Maskhadov proves otherwise I will be happy -- if not -- the
next time they will be facing the Cossacks -- not the "mighty" Russian
army which ceased to exist some 10 years.
>
>Regards, Dan K.
>
Yuri
Henrietta Thomas
"L.Gordeev" <iik...@commlink.zdv.uni-tuebingen.de> wrote:
>On Mon, 17 Feb 1997, Dan Korolyshyn wrote:
>> You really are an ignoramus aren't you? The Ukrainian
>> identity goes back to the days of Kyivan Rus when ...
>Well, well, well ... as I suspected:
>
>"The UKRAINIAN identity goes back to the days of Kyivan RUS".
>This semantical contradiction makes it very difficult (if not
>impossible) to address Ukr. identity. It has nothing to do with
>chauvinism or other emotional stuff (it's not my bisiness after
>all) - it is the very name Ukraine which creates ambiguity, since
>the word "Rus" is closer to "Russia" than to "Ukraine". It does
>not help to claim that Russia stole her name. Nobody will listen.
>Surely, I'm not the first person to argue in these lines.
>Sometimes logic is hard to swallow.
>Besides, are you really fluent in Latin? If you'll translate
>*ignoramus* into Ukrainian you'll discover another contradiction
>in your weird message. Ever heard of Hilbert's *ignoramus* vs.
>*ignorabimus*?
>L.G
I see you are stuck here in between two of the worst flamers I know.
You have my sympathy, L.G. They do not understand a word you say. :-(
Henrietta
al...@agate.net
In article <5eberc$6ek$2...@kirin.wwa.com>,
h...@wwa.com (Henrietta Thomas) wrote:
>
> "L.Gordeev" <iik...@commlink.zdv.uni-tuebingen.de> wrote:
>
> >On Mon, 17 Feb 1997, Dan Korolyshyn wrote:
>
> >> You really are an ignoramus aren't you? The Ukrainian
> >> identity goes back to the days of Kyivan Rus when ...
>
> >Well, well, well ... as I suspected:
> >
> >"The UKRAINIAN identity goes back to the days of Kyivan RUS".
JUST AS A "MOSCOVITE" WOULD UNDERSTAND BEING A "RUSSIAN"...
>
> >This semantical contradiction makes it very difficult (if not
> >impossible) to address Ukr. identity. It has nothing to do with
> >chauvinism or other emotional stuff (it's not my bisiness after
> >all) - it is the very name Ukraine which creates ambiguity, since
> >the word "Rus" is closer to "Russia" than to "Ukraine". It does
> >not help to claim that Russia stole her name. Nobody will listen.
> >Surely, I'm not the first person to argue in these lines.
> >Sometimes logic is hard to swallow.
>
> >Besides, are you really fluent in Latin? If you'll translate
> >*ignoramus* into Ukrainian you'll discover another contradiction
> >in your weird message. Ever heard of Hilbert's *ignoramus* vs.
> >*ignorabimus*?
>
> >L.G
>
> I see you are stuck here in between two of the worst flamers I know.
> You have my sympathy, L.G. They do not understand a word you say. :-(
>
> Henrietta
..AND A NEW SOVOK HAS COME IN, SHOWING HIS STUPID SOVOK ASS....
SO OF-COURSE, THAT OLD DING BAT, HENRIETTA KURVA THOMAS
COMES IN WITH A:
"KISS! KISS! AND A LICK!"
DID YOU UNDERSTAND A "WORD" OF THAT, THOMAS?
Felix Sirovski
I have a remark as an outsider.
I think our Alex is a little (possibly not so little) crazy about
so-called Ukrainian independency that is mostly based on stealing Russian
gas and electricity. I've been to Ukraine this summer and the most mild
expression what the Ukrainians say about their independency was
"bullshit". We too have so-called "historians" who say that the Slavs had
the civilization before Ancient Egipt. He is just another example of
them.
Felix Sirovski
L.Gordeev
On Mon, 17 Feb 1997 al...@agate.net wrote:
> ...BESIDES... I THINK I AM IN LOVE.....
Jesus Christ!!! Who's that poor thing? A goat or a buck?
Since nowadays Ukraine=Rus, I wonder what would be the modern
name for your ukrainian buck: a russian buck?
Note that Mongolian buffaloes are bigger and stronger anyway.
With your perverted thoughts you'd better try alt.sodomy.bestiality
- why polluting s.c.xyz and/or xyz.politics?
L.G
Elena
sasha wrote:
> ..
> Are you implying that someone could have taken a sexual interest in
> Sasha
She looks good - I would say much better then she won competition.
So - why not : ))
P.S. The radio (CT, USA) said that guy broke his finger : )) You never
know.. : ))
Did Panas
Felix Sirovski wrote:
>
> I have a remark as an outsider.
> I think our Alex is a little (possibly not so little) crazy about
> so-called Ukrainian independency that is mostly based on stealing Russian
> gas and electricity. I've been to Ukraine this summer and the most mild
> expression what the Ukrainians say about their independency was
> "bullshit".
It looks like you were growing and
consuming something illegal in your "organic chemistry" lab.
> Felix Sirovski
DP
al...@agate.net
In article <330A12...@ioc.ac.ru>,
Felix Sirovski <sir...@ioc.ac.ru> wrote:
>
> I have a remark as an outsider.
> I think our Alex is a little (possibly not so little) crazy about
> so-called Ukrainian independency that is mostly based on stealing Russian
> gas and electricity. I've been to Ukraine this summer and the most mild
> expression what the Ukrainians say about their independency was
> the civilization before Ancient Egipt. He is just another example of
> them.
> Felix Sirovski
STILL LYING ON YOUR RESUME AND TRYING TO GET INTO
AMERICA YOU STUPID, IGNORANT LYING RUSSIAN-SOVOK COMMUNIST?
AUTHOR PROFILE: Felix Sirovski <sir...@ioc.ac.ru>
8 unique articles posted. Number of articles posted to individual
newsgroups (slightly skewed by cross-postings): 2 bionet.jobs.wanted 2
misc.jobs.resumes 2 us.jobs.resumes 1 relcom.netnews 1
soc.culture.ukrainian
Leman
h...@wwa.com (Henrietta Thomas) wrote:
>I see you are stuck here in between two of the worst flamers I know.
>You have my sympathy, L.G. They do not understand a word you say. :-(
>Henrietta
Inspite of all respect I have for you, Henrietta, and all the bitching
I've done in the past about Alex, I am very pleasantly surprized to
agree with him, rather than you, in this case.
I am Russian ethnically but I still believe that Russia has as much to
do with Rus' as Romania -- with Rome, or Galichyna -- with Gallia. One
can not draw "historical" conclusions based on spelling or phonetic
similarities in the names.
Actually, I remember you participating in a few long discussions about
the relation of Ukraine and Russia to Kyevan Rus', both in s.c.r. and
s.c.u. ...
I wouldn't argue about ethnic differencies or similarities between
Russians and Ukrainians because I am not knowledgable enough in this
field AND because I happened to be a mixture of both and grew up in
Slobozhanschina. But I still believe that STATE-wise Eastern Ukraine
comes from Kyevan Rus', Western Ukraine is more related to Ruthenians
(wich were one of many Eastern Germanic folks) and Russia should
consider Moscow as its cradle, and NOT Kyiv.
I am pretty sick of pseudo-historical arguments that in reality have
only one goal -- to have a good excuse for chauvinist views today and
a good "reason" for territory claims tomorrow. While Crimean question
is rather controversial, Russian chauvinist attempts to claim Kyivan
heritage is nothing but imperialistic propaganda. Get real. And keep
your hands (and minds) off Kyiv. If you want to have an argument like
this one -- start talking about Port Arthur.
Leman
P.S. As for people that consider Ukrainian independence "bullshit" --
they are not much different from those raising red flags and Stalin's
portraits. Of course, "before it was better"...
alex
In article <Pine.HPP.3.91.970218...@commlink.zdv.uni-tuebingen.de>,
iik...@commlink.zdv.uni-tuebingen.de says...
>
>
>On Mon, 17 Feb 1997 al...@agate.net wrote:
>
>> ...BESIDES... I THINK I AM IN LOVE.....
>
>Jesus Christ!!! Who's that poor thing? A goat or a buck?
ACTUALLY.... IT'S MRS. GORDEEV .... SUCH A GOOOOD LONG
"MINET"...... AND ONLY FOR A $1 !!!!!
[SHE ONLY WANTED 25 CENTS AND AN AMERICAN CIGARETTE.....]
BUT WHAT THE HELL..... SHE WAS SO HAPPY WITH A
WHOLE DOLLAR....... SHE SAID "AIYEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE !!!!"
"DA! DA!...... IS WESTERN YANQUI DOLLAR!!!!"
THEN SHE WENT TO THE BUS STATION AND GAVE EVERYBODY
ELSE A "MINET"......
SO GREAT WAS HER JOY......
YOU KNOW..... YOU WERE QUITE CORRECT...... MONGOLIAN
WOMEN ARE INDEED STRONG!!!!
PERHAPS YOU WERE INDEED ACURATE IN YOUR SUGGESTION
TO FORGET THAT FAT, WHITE, WESTERN, "PIZDA", APRIL ...
AFTER ALL .... TO BE PERFECTLY LOGICAL ABOUT IT.....
PERHAPS YOU RUSSIANS KNOW THINGS THAT PEOPLE HAVE
FORGOT... SO CLOSE TO NATURE AND DIRT AND ALL ...
IT IS CONCEIVABLE...
>Since nowadays Ukraine=Rus,
IT IS NOT A CASE OF, "nowadays Ukraine=Rus"....
THIS WAS TRUE *BEFORE* YOU AND THE OTHER
SOVOK SAVAGES HEARD OF IT .....
DON'T YOU THINK SO ???
SORT OF LIKE YOU DISCOVERING TOILET PAPER,
AND FLUSH TOILETS WHEN YOU WENT TO GERMANY
FROM RUSSIA.....
OR DO YOU STILL THINK THAT "ROME" MUST BE IN "ROMANIA"???
> I wonder what would be the modern
>name for your ukrainian buck: a russian buck?
>Note that Mongolian buffaloes are bigger and stronger anyway.
MRS. GORDEEV WAS RATHER A LARGE CREATURE .....
[FORTUNATELY NO ONE SAW ME..... :]
{I WAS A LITTLE DRUNK.... I CONFESS.... BUT SHE DIDN'T MIND....}
{SAID THAT YOU WERE ALWAYS DRUNK.....}
{BEFORE YOU FUCKED HER TOO....}
{ALL THE MEN IN RUSSIA, WERE DRUNK BEFORE THEY FUCKED HER...}
>With your perverted thoughts you'd better try alt.sodomy.bestiality
TOLD YOU.... HAD YOUR NASTY WIFE ....
I PULLED OUT OF HER MOUTH ONCE SHE STARTED TO SING
ABOUT BORIS GODUNOV ...ANOTHER TRUE RUSSIAN
RULER OF RUSSIA ... (SCARED ME!!!)
>- why polluting s.c.xyz and/or xyz.politics?
WELL .... I WAS KINDA WONDERING.... HOW MUCH DOES YOUR
SISTER CHARGE?
IS SHE LESS FAT???
>
>L.G
>
OKSAS
> Elena wrote:
...
> > So - why not : ))
> > P.S. The radio (CT, USA) said that guy broke his finger : )) You never
> > know.. : ))
Was he not ARmenian??
Damn the Armenians!!
April
Dear Alex,
Please accept my most humbled(by you) apologies if I have offended you
in any way.
I am sincerely sorry and hurting that I pestered you over what I
believed to be gross misbehavior...
I am sincerely sorry I criticized your language skills(!)
And lastly, I am sorry I called you a green-teethed bastard + etc.
So will you please refrain from referring to my sexual organs(that goes
for everyone else as well), and please quit calling me a fat stukach,
anti-semite, sovok lover, That's not at all true, except maybe the last
as not clear on what exactly a sovok is.
What d' ya say, Huh Alex?
Pretty please w' sugar on top an' all that?
C'mon....have a heart!
April
osni...@rogers.com
In article <5eberc$6ek$2...@kirin.wwa.com> h...@wwa.com (Henrietta Thomas) writes:
>From: h...@wwa.com (Henrietta Thomas)
>Subject: Re: National identity
>Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 06:36:58 GMT
(snip)
>I see you are stuck here in between two of the worst flamers I know.
>You have my sympathy, L.G. They do not understand a word you say. :-(
>Henrietta
Henrietta. You are either ignorant or just genetically stupid. I'd give you my
sympathy but I have none to spare. So piss off with your stupid comments. Dan
K. made a statement of fact. All you can do is call him a flamer.
Your argumentative technique is not to be commended.
Oleh Sniezko
L.Gordeev
On Wed, 19 Feb 1997, April wrote:
> Dear Alex,
>
> Please accept my most humbled(by you) apologies if I have offended you
> in any way.
>
> So will you please refrain from referring to my sexual organs ...
Hm, well, let us see if he can. Still, alex@agate is fun, and so is his
syndrom. His anti-female genital rethoric would indicate anal preferences,
while writing all caps would betray his devoted dreams of big male genitals.
Moreover, according to a recent, yet unpublished Habilitationsschrift from
Heidelberg, his Mongolian obsession would make sodomy the most probable
imperative. Please let him come out of closet before your apology will
get a chance of acceptance.
L.G
L.Gordeev
On Wed, 19 Feb 1997, Leman wrote:
* I am Russian ethnically but I still believe that Russia ...
* I wouldn't argue about ethnic differencies or similarities between
* Russians and Ukrainians because I am not knowledgable enough in this
* field AND because I happened to be a mixture of both and ...
Cool. 2+2 is 3 or also 5.
* Russian chauvinist attempts to claim Kyivan
* heritage is nothing but imperialistic propaganda.
Karl Marx would be proud of both terminology and logic.
Or as Lenin wrote (in English translation):
"The doctrine of Marx is truthful because it is correct".
L.G
al...@agate.net
In article
<Pine.HPP.3.91.970220...@commlink.zdv.uni-tuebingen.de>,
you made no sense at all in this context...
Phil MacRevis
Oleg N Limeshko wrote:
>
> In article
> Pine.HPP.3.91.970214...@commlink.zdv.uni-tuebingen.de>,
> "L.Gordeev" <iik...@commlink.zdv.uni-tuebingen.de> wrote:
> [cut]
> > Surely, *poor* Bourbons or Habsburgs can be proud of their blue blood.
> > But what if the heritage is less impressive? Where are those imaginary
> > Ukrainian Kings, Emperors, Conquerors, Apostles, Monks, whoever?
>
> The easiest way is to rob other nations of their symbols and then bring
> these "revelations" to the Internet.
>
>--------or rob others of their history and very name, as Pider the "Great" and other Muscovites did when they took the name Russia, in order to legitimise himself and invent a more glorious history and past for themselves.
It's been done before- Wallachs renamed themselves "Romanians" in order
to get some Roman glory to themselves, but nobody takes them seriously
(despite Latin origin of Romanians, Italy is perceived as the primary
heir to ancient Rome)-
but unfortunately because of Russia's past global importance it was
possible to influence historical and political "truth"
3APA3A
Guido Thieme
What happened to You? How hurt Yozu do much? No nered for hating so
much!
--
_______________________________________________________________
| "An error has occurred in the government and the nation has |
| become unstable. Please close all societal establishments |
| and restart your civilization now." |
| Brian E. Coleman |
|_____________________________________________________________|
ser...@voicenet.com
>In article <8559467...@dejanews.com>
>"L.Gordeev" <iik...@commlink.zdv.uni-tuebingen.de> wrote:
..........
>and Mongol stock. The only reason that the Russians speak
>a Slavic derivitive language today is because they were
>once a part of the ancient Ukrainian Empire called
>Kyivan Rus from whence the Russians today derive their
>name much as the Romanians derive their name from being
>once a part of the Roman Empire.
..............
>You poor thing, Russia derives her name from Rus much like
>the Romanians derive theirs from Rome, but would you attribute
>the history of Rome to Romania? FYI Russia was know as Muscovy
>until the 18ty century, and Rus was the always the area around
>Kyiv. What was know as Kyivan Rus was often in the ancient
>chronicles known as Rus'ki Zemli or Rus' lands of which the
>northeastern part of present day Russia was a part.
.........
Doesn't the fact that the very word Ukraine means
"near the border" (of Rus'ki Zemli, if you please)
bother you?
That's according to The Dictionary Of Russian Etymology
by Max Vasmer. He was German and, probably, impartial
to the question of Russian or Ukrainian national identity.
Sergei
Henrietta Thomas
al...@agate.net wrote:
>In article
><Pine.HPP.3.91.970220...@commlink.zdv.uni-tuebingen.de>,
> "L.Gordeev" <iik...@commlink.zdv.uni-tuebingen.de> wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Wed, 19 Feb 1997, Leman wrote:
>>
>> * I am Russian ethnically but I still believe that Russia ...
>>
>> * I wouldn't argue about ethnic differencies or similarities between
>> * Russians and Ukrainians because I am not knowledgable enough in this
>> * field AND because I happened to be a mixture of both and ...
>>
>> Cool. 2+2 is 3 or also 5.
>>
>> * Russian chauvinist attempts to claim Kyivan
>> * heritage is nothing but imperialistic propaganda.
>>
>> Karl Marx would be proud of both terminology and logic.
>> Or as Lenin wrote (in English translation):
>> "The doctrine of Marx is truthful because it is correct".
>>
>> L.G
> you made no sense at all in this context...
It is so nice to see you writing in lower case, Alex. You should do
it more often. :-)
Henrietta
al...@agate.net
In article <5eml26$hg6$3...@kirin.wwa.com>,
DO NOT OPEN YOUR OLD, SMELLY, SLOPPY, DIRTY "PIZDA" AT ME HENRIETTA
THOMAS!
al...@agate.net
In article <sergius.22...@voicenet.com>,
ser...@voicenet.com wrote:
>
>
> >In article <8559467...@dejanews.com>
> >"L.Gordeev" <iik...@commlink.zdv.uni-tuebingen.de> wrote:
> ..........
> >and Mongol stock. The only reason that the Russians speak
> >a Slavic derivitive language today is because they were
> >once a part of the ancient Ukrainian Empire called
> >Kyivan Rus from whence the Russians today derive their
> >name much as the Romanians derive their name from being
> >once a part of the Roman Empire.
> ..............
> >You poor thing, Russia derives her name from Rus much like
> >the Romanians derive theirs from Rome, but would you attribute
> >the history of Rome to Romania? FYI Russia was know as Muscovy
> >until the 18ty century, and Rus was the always the area around
> >Kyiv. What was know as Kyivan Rus was often in the ancient
> >chronicles known as Rus'ki Zemli or Rus' lands of which the
> >northeastern part of present day Russia was a part.
> .........
>
> Doesn't the fact that the very word Ukraine means
> "near the border" (of Rus'ki Zemli, if you please)
> bother you?
NOT AT ALL.... THAT IS ONLY *ONE* POSSIBLE "INTERPRETATION"
(NATURALLY, AS A FUCKING IGNORANT, UNEDUCATED, STUPID *SOVOK*,
YOU CHOSE THAT PARTICULAR ONE).
THIS HAS BEEN USED BY *SOVOKS* BEFORE, AND ARGUED
BY THEM HERE, MANY, MANY, MANY TIMES...
WITH THEIR LOSING ON THIS POINT...
AS USUAL, THEY EITHER PRETEND NOT TO UNDERSTAND, OR (MOST LIKELY)
ARE TOO STUPID TOO UNDERSTAND OR DO NOT WANT TO....
SO THEY IGNORE WHAT HAS BEEN SAID AND ATTEMPT TO SHIFT FOCUS TO
ANOTHER LINE AND DIVERT ATTENTION...
WITH THE SAME RESULTS...
THIS PARTICULAR "LINE" HAS BEEN DEALT WITH AND *ADDRESSED* (VERY WELL)
MANY TIMES (REMEMBER WHAT I JUST WROTE, SOVOK?).
FUNNY HOW EACH NEW SOVOK, THINKS HE HAS JUST, "DISCOVERED AMERICA",
AND THINKS HE IS SO CLEVER.... :)
ONE *TRUE RUSSIAN* BUISNESSMAN, TOLD AN AMERICAN, (AND HE DID SO WITHOUT
SHAME - BECAUSE *BUISNESS IS BUISNESS*) "LOOK, WE LIVE IN A COUNTRY
WHERE EVERY TOTAL IDIOT THINKS HE IS VERY INTELLIGENT AND CLEVER".
SUMS IT UP, DOESN'T IT?
BY THE WAY, DOESN'T IT BOTHER YOU MUCH MORE THAT THE *RUS*
FROM *RUS-UKRAINE* WERE
SLAVS AND THAT THE "RUSSIANS* ARE NOT? :)))
> That's according to The Dictionary Of Russian Etymology
> by Max Vasmer. He was German and, probably, impartial
> to the question of Russian or Ukrainian national identity.
>
> Sergei
AH! A TRULY EXCELLENT SOURCE!
A BAD "DICTIONARY" IS TO USED FOR ETHNOGRAPHY!!!!:)
A *GERMAN'S* *DICTIONARY* SHOULD BE A *BASIS*
FOR NATIONAL IDENTITY, *ETHNICITY*, RACIAL ONTHOLOGY,
CULTURAL HISTORY
AND NATIONAL SELF-DETERMINATION! :))
UKRAINE SHOULD *LIVE* BY THIS ONE, EH? :)))
[AND SO SHOULD EUROPEAN AND AMERICAN INTERESTS AS WELL! :]
SEE ALSO THE BELOW (WHY DO SOVOKS, HAVE SUCH SHITTY MEMORY ANYWAY?):
subject: Re: National identity (was: Re: Drunken fuckin' stupid Sovoks!
(was: Re: So much for "ukrainian" scater Oksana Bauil From: Phil
MacRevis <@POP3.UTOLEDO.EDU> Date: 1997/02/20 Message-Id:
<330BAA...@POP3.UTOLEDO.EDU> Sender: ne...@utnetw.utoledo.edu (News
Manager) References: <5dtf9h$c...@chaos.dac.neu.edu>
<5dtms7$p...@service-2.agate.net>
<Pine.A41.3.95.970213...@red.weeg.uiowa.edu>
<Pine.HPP.3.91.970214...@commlink.zdv.uni-Tuebingen.de>
<8559467...@dejanews.com> <33074B...@MIT.EDU> Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-Ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 Reply-To:
@POP3.UTOLEDO.EDU Newsgroups:
soc.culture.ukrainian,soc.culture.russian,relcom.politics,ukr.politics
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Macintosh; I; PPC)
Oleg N Limeshko [A SOVOK} wrote:
>
> In article
> Pine.HPP.3.91.970214...@commlink.zdv.uni-tuebingen.de>,
> "L.Gordeev" <iik...@commlink.zdv.uni-tuebingen.de> [ANOTHER SOVOK] wrote:
> [cut]
> > Surely, *poor* Bourbons or Habsburgs can be proud of their blue blood.
> > But what if the heritage is less impressive? Where are those imaginary
> > Ukrainian Kings, Emperors, Conquerors, Apostles, Monks, whoever?
> > The very name Rus' makes this game impossible to win (against Russia).
>
> If there are no cultural heroes, one can always invent some.
> The easiest way is to rob other nations of their symbols and then bring
> these "revelations" to the Internet.
>
>--------or rob others of their history and very name, as Pider the "Great" and
other Muscovites did when they took the name Russia, in order to
legitimise himself and invent a more glorious history and past for
themselves.
It's been done before- Wallachs renamed themselves "Romanians" in order
to get some Roman glory to themselves, but nobody takes them seriously
(despite Latin origin of Romanians, Italy is perceived as the primary
heir to ancient Rome)-
but unfortunately because of Russia's past global importance it was
possible to influence historical and political "truth"
3APA3A
=======================
DOES THIS HELP TO EXPLAIN TO YOU WHY THE *ROMANIANS* WERE
NOT ABLE TO "PULL IT OFF", IN CLAIMING THE *ITALIAN* CLAIM
TO *ROME* ???
WHAT IS IT THAT YOU DID NOT UNDERSTAND, SOVOK ?
I AM WESTERN... I CAN EXPLAIN IT TO YOU IN SIMPLER TERMS,
ROME AIN'T IN ROMANIA.
SO WHAT?
WHAT ELSE DO YOU NEED TO KNOW?
al...@agate.net
In article <330E57...@Thieme.HAL.EUnet.de>,
Gu...@Thieme.HAL.EUnet.de wrote:
>
> What happened to You?
MY RUSSIAN WHORE LEFT ME! :(
> How hurt Yozu do much?
YOUR EX-SOVIET PROSTITUTE OF A WIFE, LEFT ME TO
MARRY YOU, BECAUSE YOU HAD MORE MONEY AND A VERY
SMALL DICK!
SHE TOLD ME YOU HAD A SMALL DICK, BUT A BIGGER WALLET! :(
> No nered for hating so
> much!
TRUE.
IT'S OVER NOW... :(
SHE USED TO COMPLAIN ABOUT MY BIG DICK AND SAID
THAT YOUR DICK WAS SO SMALL, THAT SHE DIDN'T EVEN
FEEL IT GO IN AND IT DIDN'T HURT ....
THAT AND YOU HAD MORE MONEY AND THAT YOU WERE STUPID
ENOUGH TO WANT TO LEARN TO SPEAK RUSSIAN AND DO EVERYTHING
SHE TOLD YOU TO DO AND KISS SOVOK ASS....
> --
> _______________________________________________________________
> | "An error has occurred in the government and the nation has |
> | become unstable. Please close all societal establishments |
> | and restart your civilization now." |
> | Brian E. Coleman |
> |_____________________________________________________________|
GOOD SIG FILE..... IS IT MEANT FOR RUSSIA?
al...@agate.net
In article <5eml26$hg6$3...@kirin.wwa.com>,
h...@wwa.com (Henrietta Thomas) wrote:
>
> al...@agate.net wrote:
>
> >In article
> ><Pine.HPP.3.91.970220...@commlink.zdv.uni-tuebingen.de>,
> > "L.Gordeev" <iik...@commlink.zdv.uni-tuebingen.de> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> On Wed, 19 Feb 1997, Leman wrote:
> >>
> >> * I am Russian ethnically but I still believe that Russia ...
> >>
> >> * I wouldn't argue about ethnic differencies or similarities between
> >> * Russians and Ukrainians because I am not knowledgable enough in this
> >> * field AND because I happened to be a mixture of both and ...
> >>
> >> Cool. 2+2 is 3 or also 5.
> >>
> >> * Russian chauvinist attempts to claim Kyivan
> >> * heritage is nothing but imperialistic propaganda.
> >>
> >> Karl Marx would be proud of both terminology and logic.
> >> Or as Lenin wrote (in English translation):
> >> "The doctrine of Marx is truthful because it is correct".
> >>
> >> L.G
>
> > you made no sense at all in this context...
>
> It is so nice to see you writing in lower case, Alex. You should do
> it more often. :-)
>
DO NOT PRESUME TO TELL ME WHAT TO DO, YOU OLD HAG AND COMMUNIST,
SOVOK-ASSKISSER!
.... NOT ACCEPTABLE.
> Henrietta
ser...@voicenet.com
>In article <sergius.22...@voicenet.com>,
> ser...@voicenet.com wrote:
>>
>>
>> >In article <8559467...@dejanews.com>
>> >"L.Gordeev" <iik...@commlink.zdv.uni-tuebingen.de> wrote:
>> ..........
>> ..............
>>
>> Doesn't the fact that the very word Ukraine means
>> "near the border" (of Rus'ki Zemli, if you please)
>> bother you?
>NOT AT ALL.... THAT IS ONLY *ONE* POSSIBLE "INTERPRETATION"
>(NATURALLY, AS A FUCKING IGNORANT, UNEDUCATED, STUPID *SOVOK*,
>YOU CHOSE THAT PARTICULAR ONE).
How do you know me so well? And why this enraged style? :(
>THIS HAS BEEN USED BY *SOVOKS* BEFORE, AND ARGUED
>BY THEM HERE, MANY, MANY, MANY TIMES...
>WITH THEIR LOSING ON THIS POINT...
>AS USUAL, THEY EITHER PRETEND NOT TO UNDERSTAND, OR (MOST LIKELY)
>ARE TOO STUPID TOO UNDERSTAND OR DO NOT WANT TO....
>SO THEY IGNORE WHAT HAS BEEN SAID AND ATTEMPT TO SHIFT FOCUS TO
>ANOTHER LINE AND DIVERT ATTENTION...
>WITH THE SAME RESULTS...
>THIS PARTICULAR "LINE" HAS BEEN DEALT WITH AND *ADDRESSED* (VERY WELL)
>MANY TIMES (REMEMBER WHAT I JUST WROTE, SOVOK?).
Why do you have to resort to insults when you run out of arguments?
Please, please, calm down! There is more than enough hatred on both "sides"
as it is. I'm sure that the origins of the word "Ukraine" were known to you
before my posting. My point was that your arguments were rather pathetic.
>ONE *TRUE RUSSIAN* BUISNESSMAN, TOLD AN AMERICAN, (AND HE DID SO WITHOUT
>SHAME - BECAUSE *BUISNESS IS BUISNESS*) "LOOK, WE LIVE IN A COUNTRY
>WHERE EVERY TOTAL IDIOT THINKS HE IS VERY INTELLIGENT AND CLEVER".
>SUMS IT UP, DOESN'T IT?
Yup. That's true worldwide.
>BY THE WAY, DOESN'T IT BOTHER YOU MUCH MORE THAT THE *RUS*
>FROM *RUS-UKRAINE* WERE
>SLAVS AND THAT THE "RUSSIANS* ARE NOT? :)))
That's very questionable, and completely beside the point.
Ethnicity matters to language and national identity, of course,
but it's not the same thing.
>> That's according to The Dictionary Of Russian Etymology
>> by Max Vasmer. He was German and, probably, impartial
>> to the question of Russian or Ukrainian national identity.
>>
>> Sergei
>AH! A TRULY EXCELLENT SOURCE!
>A BAD "DICTIONARY" IS TO USED FOR ETHNOGRAPHY!!!!:)
>A *GERMAN'S* *DICTIONARY* SHOULD BE A *BASIS*
>FOR NATIONAL IDENTITY, *ETHNICITY*, RACIAL ONTHOLOGY,
>CULTURAL HISTORY
>AND NATIONAL SELF-DETERMINATION! :))
Wow, slow down! Just linguistics here :)
If you spent less time raving on the Internet, you might
learn that Vasmer's is one of the most authoritative
dictionaries of Slavonic etymology.
>WHAT IS IT THAT YOU DID NOT UNDERSTAND, SOVOK ?
>I AM WESTERN... I CAN EXPLAIN IT TO YOU IN SIMPLER TERMS,
>ROME AIN'T IN ROMANIA.
>SO WHAT?
>WHAT ELSE DO YOU NEED TO KNOW?
Well, what's your blood pressure? :)
Cheers,
Sergei
P.S. If you carry on in the same rude way, I will not respond.
We obviously won't prove anything to each other... Why waste
time?
user
In article <5eei55$7...@cwis-20.wayne.edu>, a...@vot.i.ja (Leman) wrote:
> But I still believe that STATE-wise Eastern Ukraine
> comes from Kyevan Rus', Western Ukraine is more related to Ruthenians
> (wich were one of many Eastern Germanic folks) and Russia should
> consider Moscow as its cradle, and NOT Kyiv.
Let me disagree with you, since neither modern Ukraine, nor modern Russia
can claim their states came from Kiev Rus'. Kiev Rus' simply disintegrated
gradually in 13-14 century having been divided between local princes and
then between Mongols, Poland and Lithuania. As for the culture, both
Northern (Moscow, Tver', Novgorod) and Southern (Kiev) parts managed to
preserve their culture and faith, although, frankly, Moscovites were more
lucky under tolerant Mongols, than Kievans under "civilized" Catholic
Poles. Poles spent so much effort to convert Malorossia into catholics
that in 17 century population rebelled and asked a protectorate from
Moscow. Close connection between people of Malorossia and Velikorossia,
however, continued through all previous centures based on common culture
inherited from the Kievan Rus. The influence of Kiev monks and priests on
Moscow clergy, for example, was so high that the famous "Nikons" church
reforms were inspired by Malorossian priests.
The origin of the world Ukraine has nothing to do with the Kiev State, by
that name some people of Orthodox faith living near the boundaries of
Poland were called (okrainians <- okraina). Those who lived in Kiev would
called themselves Russians by then. The cry of Khmelnitskii rebellion was
"for our Russian motherland and Orthodox Church".
>
> I am pretty sick of pseudo-historical arguments that in reality have
> only one goal -- to have a good excuse for chauvinist views today and
> a good "reason" for territory claims tomorrow.
Here you are exaggerating a bit. Saying that Ukrainians and Russian had
nearly a thousand years of common history of mutually friendly existence
and common origins of their culture is not chauvinism. On the contrary
stupid claims that Ukrains had nothing common with Russians, and all
Russians did was occupating and suppressing Ukrainians are more likely to
be called paranoidal nationalism.
> Russian chauvinist attempts to claim Kyivan
> heritage is nothing but imperialistic propaganda.
Again, if you mean material remnants of Kievan Rus then so far only
leaders of Rukh claimed icons by Andrei Rublev citing the reason he was a
subject of the Kievan state, hence Ukraine's today. I don't think any
reasonable people would join in this, except, perhaps some maniac
immigrants who never saw neither Ukraine nor Russia but were brought up to
hate Russia and Russians.
If you mean cultural heritage it really belongs to all slavonic people on
the territory of modern Russia, Belorussia and Ukraine. Do you think
Orthodox traditions in Russia came from Mongolia or China?
> Get real. And keep
> your hands (and minds) off Kyiv.
History is too long and humans' life is too short. Only westeners think
the history ended. Who knows what happens next. What would you say if you
knew that in, say, 50 years Ukraine and Russia would re-join?
Alex.
Guido Thieme
al...@agate.net wrote:
> ...
>> _____________________________________________________________
>> | "An error has occurred in the government and the nation has |
>> | become unstable. Please close all societal establishments |
>> | and restart your civilization now." |
>> | Brian E. Coleman |
>> |_____________________________________________________________|
>
> GOOD SIG FILE..... IS IT MEANT FOR RUSSIA?
No, much more for Belarus. But maybe it's quite global...
alex
In article <sergius.22...@voicenet.com>, ser...@voicenet.com says...
>
>In article <8566292...@dejanews.com> al...@agate.net writes:
>
>>In article <sergius.22...@voicenet.com>,
>> ser...@voicenet.com wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> >In article <8559467...@dejanews.com>
>>> >"L.Gordeev" <iik...@commlink.zdv.uni-tuebingen.de> wrote:
>>> ..........
>>> ..............
>>>
>>> Doesn't the fact that the very word Ukraine means
>>> "near the border" (of Rus'ki Zemli, if you please)
>>> bother you?
>
>>NOT AT ALL.... THAT IS ONLY *ONE* POSSIBLE "INTERPRETATION"
>>(NATURALLY, AS A FUCKING IGNORANT, UNEDUCATED, STUPID *SOVOK*,
>>YOU CHOSE THAT PARTICULAR ONE).
>
>How do you know me so well?
BY WHAT YOU WROTE AND HOW YOU WROTE IT, OF-COURSE!
> And why this enraged style? :(
STUPIDITY, OFT REPEATED, IS TIRESOME, IS IT NOT?
>
>>THIS HAS BEEN USED BY *SOVOKS* BEFORE, AND ARGUED
>>BY THEM HERE, MANY, MANY, MANY TIMES...
>>WITH THEIR LOSING ON THIS POINT...
>
>>AS USUAL, THEY EITHER PRETEND NOT TO UNDERSTAND, OR (MOST LIKELY)
>>ARE TOO STUPID TOO UNDERSTAND OR DO NOT WANT TO....
>>SO THEY IGNORE WHAT HAS BEEN SAID AND ATTEMPT TO SHIFT FOCUS TO
>>ANOTHER LINE AND DIVERT ATTENTION...
>>WITH THE SAME RESULTS...
>
>>THIS PARTICULAR "LINE" HAS BEEN DEALT WITH AND *ADDRESSED* (VERY WELL)
>>MANY TIMES (REMEMBER WHAT I JUST WROTE, SOVOK?).
>
>Why do you have to resort to insults when you run out of arguments?
GAVE *FACTS* @ AND @ INSULTED YOU, STUPID!
>Please, please, calm down!
AM CALM.... CALMY CALLED YOU A "STUPID SOVOK"
AND TRIED TO TEACH YOU SOMETHING THAT YOU
DIDN'T LEARN IN SOVOK SCHOOL.
SO YOU SEE.... I WAS VERY NICE AND DID YOU A FAVOR.
> There is more than enough hatred on both "sides"
>as it is. I'm sure that the origins of the word "Ukraine" were known to you
>before my posting. My point was that your arguments were rather pathetic.
OH?
HOW SO?
>
>>ONE *TRUE RUSSIAN* BUISNESSMAN, TOLD AN AMERICAN, (AND HE DID SO WITHOUT
>>SHAME - BECAUSE *BUISNESS IS BUISNESS*) "LOOK, WE LIVE IN A COUNTRY
>>WHERE EVERY TOTAL IDIOT THINKS HE IS VERY INTELLIGENT AND CLEVER".
>
>>SUMS IT UP, DOESN'T IT?
>
>Yup. That's true worldwide.
MUCH MORE SO IN RUSSIA.... LOOK AT THE NATION AND PEOPLE
AND HOW THEY DO THINGS, ACT, AND HOW EAGER THEY ALWAYS WERE
AND ARE TO IMPLANT THEIR STUPIDITY ON OTHERS.... RIGHT?
>
>>BY THE WAY, DOESN'T IT BOTHER YOU MUCH MORE THAT THE *RUS*
>>FROM *RUS-UKRAINE* WERE
>>SLAVS AND THAT THE "RUSSIANS* ARE NOT? :)))
>
>That's very questionable,
NO.
> and completely beside the point.
NO.
>Ethnicity matters to language and national identity, of course,
*SOMETIMES*.
>but it's not the same thing.
NEVER SAID IT WAS, NOW DID I, YOU STUPID SOVOK!
>
>>> That's according to The Dictionary Of Russian Etymology
>>> by Max Vasmer. He was German and, probably, impartial
>>> to the question of Russian or Ukrainian national identity.
>>>
>>> Sergei
>
>>AH! A TRULY EXCELLENT SOURCE!
>>A BAD "DICTIONARY" IS TO USED FOR ETHNOGRAPHY!!!!:)
>
>>A *GERMAN'S* *DICTIONARY* SHOULD BE A *BASIS*
>>FOR NATIONAL IDENTITY, *ETHNICITY*, RACIAL ONTHOLOGY,
>>CULTURAL HISTORY
>>AND NATIONAL SELF-DETERMINATION! :))
>
>Wow, slow down! Just linguistics here :)
YES.
SO WHY DID YOU TRY TO IMPLY IT WAS MUCH MORE THEN
THAT BY SAYING:
"He was German and, probably, impartial
to the question of Russian or Ukrainian national identity." ??????
>If you spent less time raving on the Internet, you might
>learn that Vasmer's is one of the most authoritative
>dictionaries of Slavonic etymology.
WHAT'S THAT GOT TO DO WITH THE PRICE OF EGGS IN CHINA
OR THIS DISCUSSION THEN?!?!?!?!
OR, AS YOU *JUST SAID*, ">Wow, slow down! Just linguistics here :)
>
>>WHAT IS IT THAT YOU DID NOT UNDERSTAND, SOVOK ?
>>I AM WESTERN... I CAN EXPLAIN IT TO YOU IN SIMPLER TERMS,
>
>>ROME AIN'T IN ROMANIA.
>
>>SO WHAT?
>
>>WHAT ELSE DO YOU NEED TO KNOW?
>
>Well, what's your blood pressure? :)
LOW.
WHAT'S YOUR INTELLIGENCE LEVEL?
>
>Cheers,
> Sergei
>
>P.S. If you carry on in the same rude way, I will not respond.
A GREAT LOSS INDEED!
>We obviously won't prove anything to each other... Why waste
>time?
THEN CONTINUE ON SOVOK .... WITH YOUR HEAD IN YOUR SOVOK ASS...
YOU ARE USED TO IT, AS YOU HAVE MADE ABUNDANTLY EVIDENT....
AND INDEED.... PREFER IT AND THINK THAT OTHERS SHOULD AS WELL,
RIGHT?
Hugh G. Rection
ser...@voicenet.com wrote:
>
> .........
>
> Doesn't the fact that the very word Ukraine means
> "near the border" (of Rus'ki Zemli, if you please)
> bother you?
> by Max Vasmer. He was German and, probably, impartial
> to the question of Russian or Ukrainian national identity.
>
> Sergei
it can also be pointed out that "Kray" in Ukrainian means country - e.g.
"miy ridniy krai" - my native land.
furthermore, it's probable that the German linguist got his information
from impartial Russian sources. Subjugated Ukaine had nobody to speak
for her.
This would be analagous to an American academic receiving his
information about Jewish culture, history etc. from 1930's German
sources - It would be quite skewed!
Everybody knows the rampant misinformation of Russian sources - Katyn
massacre, cover up of famine, "dissapearence" of Trotsky, etc. etc.
During czars time the Ukrainian language was officially deemed a
"non-language" and it was illigel to print books in it. MAybe these
proclamations of Russian governemnt also render the Ukrainian language
to be not a language?
3APA3A
Hugh G. Rection
ser...@voicenet.com wrote:
>
> >I
> .........
>
> Doesn't the fact that the very word Ukraine means
> "near the border" (of Rus'ki Zemli, if you please)
> bother you?
> That's according to The Dictionary Of Russian Etymology
> by Max Vasmer. He was German and, probably, impartial
> to the question of Russian or Ukrainian national identity.
>
> Sergei
It can also be pointed out that "Kray" (in Ukrayina) means country - for
example miy ridniy krai (my native land).
Furthermore, it is probable that the German linguist got his
interpretation of the word from (not impartial) Russian sources;
subjugated Ukrainians had no voice at that time.
This is analagous to thed many American academics who bought into the
Russian interpretation of other scholarly work and who afterwards were
so surprized to see a significant % of Ukrainain population demand
independance
Fortunately American scholars didn't use, say, 1930's German information
when studying Jews- if so their information concerning Jewish culture
and history would have been quite skewed; Bolshevic and, to a lesser
extent, czarist historians were not above distorting things to serve
their undemocratic aims of their governments. (ex: Katyn massacre, lack
of famine in Ukraine, elimination of Trotsky's place in history, etc)
3APA3A
Donald Mak
ser...@voicenet.com wrote:
>
> >In article <8559467...@dejanews.com>
> >"L.Gordeev" <iik...@commlink.zdv.uni-tuebingen.de> wrote:
> ..........
>
> "near the border" (of Rus'ki Zemli, if you please)
> bother you?
> That's according to The Dictionary Of Russian Etymology
> by Max Vasmer. He was German and, probably, impartial
> to the question of Russian or Ukrainian national identity.
>
> Sergei
Actually, most agree that Ukrayina meant borderland or on the border not
near the border. Secondly, Rus and Russia (or Rossiya) are two different
words with seperate origins. Russia was the successor state to the
Principality of Moscow which was an outlying region of Keiven Rus'.
Hui-Klinskih
Hugh G. Rection wrote:
>
> ser...@voicenet.com wrote:
> >
> > >I
> > .........
> >
> > Doesn't the fact that the very word Ukraine means
> > "near the border" (of Rus'ki Zemli, if you please)
> > bother you?
> > That's according to The Dictionary Of Russian Etymology
> > by Max Vasmer. He was German and, probably, impartial
> > to the question of Russian or Ukrainian national identity.
> >
> > Sergei
>
> example miy ridniy krai (my native land).
AND 'U' MEANS *NEAR*, SO THE CORRECT TRANSLATION WOULD
BE *NEAR THE NATIVE LAND*. HENCE, EVERYTHING ADDS UP TO WHERE
WE STARTED. IN 10-16TH CENTURY THERE WAS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN
THE LANGUAGES OF PEOPLE IN ROSSIA AND UKRAINE, AND THEREFORE,
GIVEN THAT BOTH OF MODERN LANGUAGES GIVE A UNIQUE INTERPRETATION
OF 'UKRAINA', WE CONCLUDE THAT, AT THE TIME WHEN THE TERM WAS
ORIGINATED- IN THE OLD SLAVIC LANGUAGE - IT MEANT WHAT IT MEANS NOW --
*NEAR THE NATIVE LAND*. MY KNOWLEDGE OF OLD SLAVIC (CHURCH SLAVONIC)
ALSO ALLOWS FOR SUCH CONCLUSION.
> Furthermore, it is probable that the German linguist got his
> interpretation of the word from (not impartial) Russian sources;
> subjugated Ukrainians had no voice at that time.
THAT IS A GENERAL STATEMENT, AND IT PROVES NOTHING, ESPECIALLY
GIVEN WHAT IS STATED ABOVE.
> 3APA3A
YEP
Hui-Klinskih
al...@agate.net wrote:
> other Muscovites did when they took the name Russia, in order to
> legitimise himself and invent a more glorious history and past for
> themselves.
>
> It's been done before- Wallachs renamed themselves "Romanians" in order
> to get some Roman glory to themselves, but nobody takes them seriously
> (despite Latin origin of Romanians, Italy is perceived as the primary
> heir to ancient Rome)-
> but unfortunately because of Russia's past global importance it was
> possible to influence historical and political "truth"
>
Alex Aagnew and other Russia-haters,
You, ignorant and bereft of intelligence people,
the problem with your statement is that
ROSSIA, as OPPOSED to GERMANIC RUS,
IS and WAS A MUCH GREATER STATE!!!
SO IF ANYONE SHOULD BE PROUD THAT IS THE
ANCIENT GERMANIC TRIBE of RUGS (RUS)--
SUCH A GREAT COUNTRY AS RUSSIA HAS NAME
SIMILAR TO THEIRS!!!
Alex Nevsky
> ROME AIN'T IN ROMANIA.
SHITTY RUS AIN'T GREAT ROSSIA.
Hui-Klinskih
Hugh G. Rection wrote:
>
>
> During czars time the Ukrainian language was officially deemed a
> "non-language" and it was illigel to print books in it.
YEP, THEN SHEVCHENKO WAS WRITING IN RUSSIAN, AND HE IS A GREAT RUSSIAN
POET. BUT SHEVCHENKO WAS WRITING IN UNKRAINIAN, AND HE WAS PUBLISHED,
AND HE IS A GREAT UNKRAINIAN POET.
THEREFORE THE ABOVE STATEMENT OF YOURS IS BULLSHIT.
MAybe these
> proclamations of Russian governemnt also render the Ukrainian language
> to be not a language?
WHICH PROCLAMATIONS?
>
> 3APA3A
YEP
Hui-Klinskih
Donald Mak wrote:
>
> ser...@voicenet.com wrote:
> >
> > >In article <8559467...@dejanews.com>
> > >"L.Gordeev" <iik...@commlink.zdv.uni-tuebingen.de> wrote:
> > ..........
> >
> > "near the border" (of Rus'ki Zemli, if you please)
> > bother you?
> > That's according to The Dictionary Of Russian Etymology
> > by Max Vasmer. He was German and, probably, impartial
> > to the question of Russian or Ukrainian national identity.
> >
> > Sergei
>
> near the border. Secondly, Rus and Russia (or Rossiya) are two different
> words with seperate origins. Russia was the successor state to the
> Principality of Moscow which was an outlying region of Keiven Rus'.
DID YOU JUST OPEN AMERICA? GO READ SOME BOOKS, LAMER.
Hui-Klinskih
Hugh G. Rection wrote:
elimination of Trotsky's place in history, etc)
TROTSKI'S PLACE IN HISTORY WAS AS FOLLOWS:
HE WAS A BRILLIANT SPEAKER, PHILOSOPHER, REVOLUTIONARY.
HE KNEW SEVEN LANGAUGES.
HE CREATED RED ARMY, AND DURING WWI-CIVIL WAR, HE WAS GUIDING
THE FOREFRONT OF IT -- HE WAS TRAVELLING BACK AND FORTH WITH HIS
COMRADES -- SECRETARIAL PROSTITUTES (ABOUT 6-7 OF THEM) AND OTHER
REVOLUTIONARY ASS-LICKERS. HIS FAVORITE
METHOD OF MANAGING THE BREAKTHROUGHS OF RED ARMY'S POSITIONS BY WHITES
WAS LINING UP THE READ ARMY'S RUNNING MEN AND THEN SHOTING EACH TENTH OF
THEM. HE UNLISHED, BY THE ORDER OF LENIN, THE 'RED TERROR' THAT RESULTED
IN MASS MURDER OF INNOCENT PEOPLE, INCLUDING UKRAINIAN PEASANTS.
NOW, YOU, A NOBLE UKRAINIAN LEARNER OF HISTORY, ARE BEING PROUD OF
HIM!!! MY CONGRATULATIONS TO YOU!!!
> 3APA3A
Yuriy Diakunchak
Hui-Klinskih wrote:
> AND 'U' MEANS *NEAR*, SO THE CORRECT TRANSLATION WOULD
actually "U" means "in" (bilya, kolo, blyzko and many other words mean
"near") And don't shout so much, we're not hard of hearing.
ciao,
Yuriy
osni...@rci.rogers.com
In article <33134B...@koz.hu> Hui-Klinskih <ko...@koz.hu> writes:
>From: Hui-Klinskih <ko...@koz.hu>
>Subject: Re: National identity
>Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 14:28:22 -0600
>Hugh G. Rection wrote:
>>
>>
>> During czars time the Ukrainian language was officially deemed a
>> "non-language" and it was illigel to print books in it.
>YEP, THEN SHEVCHENKO WAS WRITING IN RUSSIAN, AND HE IS A GREAT RUSSIAN
>POET. BUT SHEVCHENKO WAS WRITING IN UNKRAINIAN, AND HE WAS PUBLISHED,
>AND HE IS A GREAT UNKRAINIAN POET.
>THEREFORE THE ABOVE STATEMENT OF YOURS IS BULLSHIT.
Wanker! You seem to be swimming in bullshit. Shevchenko spent his last year in
Siberia due to his writings. Are you going to continue with your claim you
brain-dead ignormus?
<snip>
Oleh
osni...@rci.rogers.com
In article <33134B...@koz.hu> Hui-Klinskih <ko...@koz.hu> writes:
>From: Hui-Klinskih <ko...@koz.hu>
>Subject: Re: National identity
"Did you just open America?"
What the hell does that mean, asshole? Who toughted you how to spoken good
english?
Go back to school loser!
Oleh
al...@agate.net
In article <osniezko.2...@rci.rogers.com>,
osni...@rci.rogers.com wrote:
>
> In article <33134B...@koz.hu> Hui-Klinskih <ko...@koz.hu> writes:
> >From: Hui-Klinskih <ko...@koz.hu>
> >Subject: Re: National identity
>
> >Hugh G. Rection wrote:
> >>
>
> >>
> >> During czars time the Ukrainian language was officially deemed a
> >> "non-language" and it was illigel to print books in it.
>
> >YEP, THEN SHEVCHENKO WAS WRITING IN RUSSIAN, AND HE IS A GREAT RUSSIAN
> >POET. BUT SHEVCHENKO WAS WRITING IN UNKRAINIAN, AND HE WAS PUBLISHED,
> >AND HE IS A GREAT UNKRAINIAN POET.
> >THEREFORE THE ABOVE STATEMENT OF YOURS IS BULLSHIT.
>
> Wanker! You seem to be swimming in bullshit. Shevchenko spent his last year in
> Siberia due to his writings. Are you going to continue with your claim you
> brain-dead ignormus?
>
> <snip>
>
> Oleh
WHAT DO YOU EXPECT FROM AN IGNORANT, "BYDLO" SOVOK "HUI" ?
THAT IS WHY, HE IS INDEED: "Hui-Klinskih <ko...@koz.hu>"
Yury Mukharsky
osni...@rci.rogers.com wrote:
>
> In article <33134B...@koz.hu> Hui-Klinskih <ko...@koz.hu> writes:
> >From: Hui-Klinskih <ko...@koz.hu>
> >Subject: Re: National identity
> >Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 14:28:22 -0600
>
> >Hugh G. Rection wrote:
> >>
>
> >>
> >> During czars time the Ukrainian language was officially deemed a
> >> "non-language" and it was illigel to print books in it.
>
> >YEP, THEN SHEVCHENKO WAS WRITING IN RUSSIAN, AND HE IS A GREAT RUSSIAN
> >POET. BUT SHEVCHENKO WAS WRITING IN UNKRAINIAN, AND HE WAS PUBLISHED,
> >AND HE IS A GREAT UNKRAINIAN POET.
> >THEREFORE THE ABOVE STATEMENT OF YOURS IS BULLSHIT.
>
> Wanker! You seem to be swimming in bullshit. Shevchenko spent his last year in
> Siberia due to his writings. Are you going to continue with your claim you
> brain-dead ignormus?
Interesting. Although I am not the one who is accused, I must admit that
I am ignorant on this subject too. I can see three possibilities,
though:
1. Shevchenko indeed spent some time in what I thought is Siberia.
2. St. Petersberg is in Siberia.
3. Modern-day city of Shevchenko (on Caspian sea) is in Siberia.
So I an trying to understand, am I ignorant in Hystory or geography.
Yury
3APA3A
You facking idiot, Trotsky was used as an example of communist
distortion of history. Prudurok bled.
3APA3A
Hui-Klinskih wrote:
>
> Hugh G. Rection wrote:
> >
>
> >
> > During czars time the Ukrainian language was officially deemed a
> > "non-language" and it was illigel to print books in it.
>
> YEP, THEN SHEVCHENKO WAS WRITING IN RUSSIAN, AND HE IS A GREAT RUSSIAN
> POET. BUT SHEVCHENKO WAS WRITING IN UNKRAINIAN, AND HE WAS PUBLISHED,
> AND HE IS A GREAT UNKRAINIAN POET.
> THEREFORE THE ABOVE STATEMENT OF YOURS IS BULLSHIT.
>
>
Ah, but when was he published, genius?
MAybe these
> > proclamations of Russian governemnt also render the Ukrainian language
> > to be not a language?
>
> WHICH PROCLAMATIONS?
>
> >
I don't have time to look it up and give exact references (why waste
more than a minute on you), but since you're the ignorant one, find any
history book and educate yourself. It occurred in nineteenth century.
Interesting how you're trying to imitate someone else on this newsgroup
in your writing style. After stealing culture and history I see you're
even stealing internet formats.
your 3APA3A
Styagar Orest
Hui-Klinskih wrote:
>
> Hugh G. Rection wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > >I
> > > .........
> > >
> > > Doesn't the fact that the very word Ukraine means
> > > "near the border" (of Rus'ki Zemli, if you please)
> > > bother you?
> > > That's according to The Dictionary Of Russian Etymology
> > > by Max Vasmer. He was German and, probably, impartial
> > > to the question of Russian or Ukrainian national identity.
> > >
> > > Sergei
> >
> > example miy ridniy krai (my native land).
>
^^^
In Ukrainian 'U' doesn't mean 'near', 'U' meant 'IN'.
Therefore, 'UKRAINE' means 'IN THE NATIVE LAND'. When the term
was originated it was applied ONLY to central part of RUS (not all
Kievian Rus).
Thus, 'Ukraine' meant 'in native land' or 'in metropolia' (compare
please polish 'w kraju', 'krajowy').
Besides, when the term was originated, it was applied to region
that wasn't 'BORDERLAND', it was rather 'METROPOLIA' or 'CENTER'.
> BE *NEAR THE NATIVE LAND*. HENCE, EVERYTHING ADDS UP TO WHERE
> WE STARTED. IN 10-16TH CENTURY THERE WAS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN
> THE LANGUAGES OF PEOPLE IN ROSSIA AND UKRAINE, AND THEREFORE,
> GIVEN THAT BOTH OF MODERN LANGUAGES GIVE A UNIQUE INTERPRETATION
> OF 'UKRAINA', WE CONCLUDE THAT, AT THE TIME WHEN THE TERM WAS
> ORIGINATED- IN THE OLD SLAVIC LANGUAGE - IT MEANT WHAT IT MEANS NOW --
> *NEAR THE NATIVE LAND*. MY KNOWLEDGE OF OLD SLAVIC (CHURCH SLAVONIC)
> ALSO ALLOWS FOR SUCH CONCLUSION.
>
> > Furthermore, it is probable that the German linguist got his
> > interpretation of the word from (not impartial) Russian sources;
> > subjugated Ukrainians had no voice at that time.
>
> THAT IS A GENERAL STATEMENT, AND IT PROVES NOTHING, ESPECIALLY
> GIVEN WHAT IS STATED ABOVE.
>
> > 3APA3A
>
sy, Orest
Dmitry Gryaznov
Styagar Orest wrote:
>
> Hui-Klinskih wrote:
> >
> > Hugh G. Rection wrote:
> > >
> > > It can also be pointed out that "Kray" (in Ukrayina) means country - for
> > > example miy ridniy krai (my native land).
> >
> > AND 'U' MEANS *NEAR*, SO THE CORRECT TRANSLATION WOULD
>
> ^^^
> In Ukrainian 'U' doesn't mean 'near', 'U' meant 'IN'.
> Therefore, 'UKRAINE' means 'IN THE NATIVE LAND'.
In *modern* Ukrainian 'U' means 'IN' (but not only 'IN', AFAIK).
And you're talking about the language used in Kievan Rus in 9th-11th century -
Old Slavonic, which was quite different from both modern Ukrainian and modern
Russian.
> When the term
> was originated it was applied ONLY to central part of RUS (not all
> Kievian Rus).
It was NOT applied to the CENTRAL part of Rus - it was NEVER applied to
Kiev and its vicinity. In old chronicles 'Ukraina' is used just about a
couple of times, referring to DIFFERENT parts of Kievan Rus, distant enough
from Kiev.
> Thus, 'Ukraine' meant 'in native land' or 'in metropolia' (compare
> please polish 'w kraju', 'krajowy').
While 'in native land' in the chronicles' context is quite possible,
'in metropolia' somehow contradicts the chronicles...
> Besides, when the term was originated, it was applied to region
> that wasn't 'BORDERLAND', it was rather 'METROPOLIA' or 'CENTER'.
The MODERN name 'Ukraina' originated MUCH later, when refugees from
central Ukraine, fleeing Polish oppression, settled in southern parts of
Muscovy lands on the border with Poland (i.e. Ukrainian lands under
Poland). "Slobids'ka Ukraina" = "Slobozhanschina". From there, with many
the people returning back later, the name spread to the whole country.
Do not take MY word for this - read Hrushevsky's "History of Rus-Ukraine"
--
Sincerely, | VirusLab, Dr.Solomon's Software Ltd.
Dmitry O. Gryaznov | Alton House, Office Park, Gatehouse Way,
Senior Research Consultant | Aylesbury, Bucks HP19 3XU, United Kingdom
E-mail: gr...@dial.pipex.com | Tel: +44 (0)1296 318700
WWW: http://www.drsolomon.com | Fax: +44 (0)1296 318734
Donald Mak
Hui-Klinskih wrote:
> Alex Aagnew and other Russia-haters,
>
> You, ignorant and bereft of intelligence people,
> the problem with your statement is that
> ROSSIA, as OPPOSED to GERMANIC RUS,
> IS and WAS A MUCH GREATER STATE!!!
> SO IF ANYONE SHOULD BE PROUD THAT IS THE
> ANCIENT GERMANIC TRIBE of RUGS (RUS)--
> SUCH A GREAT COUNTRY AS RUSSIA HAS NAME
> SIMILAR TO THEIRS!!!
>
> Alex Nevsky
>
> > ROME AIN'T IN ROMANIA.
>
> SHITTY RUS AIN'T GREAT ROSSIA.
Rus' and Russia did not exist at the same times so they cannot be
compared as such.
As to "Great Russia???? What great russia??? Russia is but a third world
country that is broke and begging for handouts while still trying to
rattle its rusting saber. (Which by the way even at the high point in
the cold war was nothing but a dagger)
Donald Mak
Yaroslav Zolotaryuk
In article <3316C2...@dial.pipex.com>, Dmitry Gryaznov <er...@dial.pipex.com> writes:
[...]
>
>> Besides, when the term was originated, it was applied to region
>> that wasn't 'BORDERLAND', it was rather 'METROPOLIA' or 'CENTER'.
>
>The MODERN name 'Ukraina' originated MUCH later, when refugees from
>central Ukraine, fleeing Polish oppression, settled in southern parts of
>Muscovy lands on the border with Poland (i.e. Ukrainian lands under
>Poland). "Slobids'ka Ukraina" = "Slobozhanschina".
Very common mistake. "Slobozhanshchyna" was called "Okraina",
but not Ukraine. You can look at the map "Ukraine of'T Land
der Cosacken" :
http://www.std.com/sabre/UFPWWW_Etc/History/sichynsky/sicchap6.htm
(map number 15)
which clearly shows Ukraine and "Okraina" as two different territories.
Besides, Slobozhanshchyna was populated during and after the war
1648-1654, while the word "Ukraine" was known before, for exapmple
French engineer Guillame de Beauplan who visited Ukraine in 1630ies,
has published his memories - "Description d'Ukraine". Look here:
http://www.std.com/sabre/UFPWWW_Etc/History/sichynsky/sicchap4.htm
> From there, with many
>the people returning back later, the name spread to the whole country.
>
>Do not take MY word for this - read Hrushevsky's "History of Rus-Ukraine"
OK, then post exactly what Hrushevsky wrote.
>
>--
>Sincerely, | VirusLab, Dr.Solomon's Software Ltd.
> Dmitry O. Gryaznov | Alton House, Office Park, Gatehouse Way,
>Senior Research Consultant | Aylesbury, Bucks HP19 3XU, United Kingdom
>E-mail: gr...@dial.pipex.com | Tel: +44 (0)1296 318700
>WWW: http://www.drsolomon.com | Fax: +44 (0)1296 318734
Best regards,
YZ
Dmitry Gryaznov
Yaroslav Zolotaryuk wrote:
>
> In article <3316C2...@dial.pipex.com>, Dmitry Gryaznov <er...@dial.pipex.com> writes:
> >
> >The MODERN name 'Ukraina' originated MUCH later, when refugees from
> >central Ukraine, fleeing Polish oppression, settled in southern parts of
> >Muscovy lands on the border with Poland (i.e. Ukrainian lands under
> >Poland). "Slobids'ka Ukraina" = "Slobozhanschina".
[...]
> Besides, Slobozhanshchyna was populated during and after the war
> 1648-1654, while the word "Ukraine" was known before, for exapmple
> French engineer Guillame de Beauplan who visited Ukraine in 1630ies,
> has published his memories - "Description d'Ukraine". Look here:
>
> http://www.std.com/sabre/UFPWWW_Etc/History/sichynsky/sicchap4.htm
Well, I've got the impression (from reading Hrushevsky) that those areas
were populated by Ukrainian settlers long before the war...
> > From there, with many
> >the people returning back later, the name spread to the whole country.
> >
> >Do not take MY word for this - read Hrushevsky's "History of Rus-Ukraine"
>
> OK, then post exactly what Hrushevsky wrote.
I wish I could... I borrowed Hrushevsky's book from a library and, naturally,
had to return it back... That's why I suggested to read it, not to take my
word for it.
Well, anyway, the whole discussion of the origins of the name 'Ukraine' is
kind of meaningless. How does it matter where it came from? The fact is that
today Ukraine is at last an idependent country and its history is returned to it.
What bothers me, though, is that now some try to deprive Russia of its
history. Two wrongs do not make right, you know...
Dan Korolev
3APA3A <Gle...@pop3.utoledo.edu> writes:
>You facking idiot, Trotsky was used as an example of communist
>distortion of history. Prudurok bled.
Wow! To misspel words in 2 languages in just 1.5 lines of text - takes skill.
NotMyRealAddress
In article <5f7ikf$r...@lynx.dac.neu.edu> mkag...@lynx.dac.neu.edu (Michael Kagalenko) writes:
>Dmitry Gryaznov (er...@dial.pipex.com) wrote in article <3316C2...@dial.pipex.com> <pre><blink>
>]And you're talking about the language used in Kievan Rus in 9th-11th century -
>]Old Slavonic, which was quite different from both modern Ukrainian and modern
>]Russian.
>
> Russian.
>
>Whoever Dmitrij replies to wrote:
>]> Thus, 'Ukraine' meant 'in native land' or 'in metropolia' (compare
>]> please polish 'w kraju', 'krajowy').
>
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
"Ukrainian nationalists! Ukrainian nationalists!" ...
The distress call of Homo Sovieticus.
Is there a sound more sweet
Than the sound of Victory?
_____
Larry
MyRealAddress: fel...@alph04.triumf.ca
Leman
"L.Gordeev" <iik...@commlink.zdv.uni-tuebingen.de> wrote:
>On Wed, 19 Feb 1997, Leman wrote:
>* I am Russian ethnically but I still believe that Russia ...
>* I wouldn't argue about ethnic differencies or similarities between
>* Russians and Ukrainians because I am not knowledgable enough in this
>* field AND because I happened to be a mixture of both and ...
>Cool. 2+2 is 3 or also 5.
Sometimes it is -- if you try to add apples and oranges.
What I meant in the first sentence (you should've quoted all of it,
BTW) was the fact that I lived in a Russian-speaking area. Also my mom
is Russian and she was always fighting any kind of "ukrainisms" in my
language and making sure I know Russian history and culture. My
father, on the other hand, was Ukrainian and spoke Ukrainian fluently,
though he would always speak Russian at home. A course in USSR
economical geography (and later -- economical geography of Ukrainian
SSR) was enough for me to realize that Ukraine should be independent.
Few years later I realized that for decades Ukrainians were denied
their own language and culture at least in the Eastern part of the
republic. I started reading books distributed by URP and realized what
kind of cultural robery Ukrainians were subjected to. I learned some
of Ukrainian culture and vocabulary (unfortunately, still passive). It
was enough to realize the importance of Ukrainian cultural
preservation, but is still not enough to call myself an authority in
Ukrainian culture and/or Russian-Ukrainian cultural interrelationship.
>* Russian chauvinist attempts to claim Kyivan
>* heritage is nothing but imperialistic propaganda.
>Karl Marx would be proud of both terminology and logic.
>Or as Lenin wrote (in English translation):
>"The doctrine of Marx is truthful because it is correct".
>L.G
The words "imperialistic" and "propaganda" were not invented by
communists and are quite suited for this particular sentence. I hope
you agree that Russia was always (and still is) an empire. Also, it
would be hard to imagine any politics without propaganda. As for my
logic, I don't see anything illogical in saying that claiming Kyivan
heritage could be a prelude to claiming Kyivan territories as well.
Leman.
Leman
us...@host.sub.domain (user) wrote:
>In article <5eei55$7...@cwis-20.wayne.edu>, a...@vot.i.ja (Leman) wrote:
>[...]
>> Get real. And keep
>> your hands (and minds) off Kyiv.
>History is too long and humans' life is too short. Only westeners think
>the history ended. Who knows what happens next. What would you say if you
>knew that in, say, 50 years Ukraine and Russia would re-join?
>Alex.
I would say: "I wasted my vote in 1991".
Fortunately, this utopia (or, antiutopia, I would say) is about as
likely to come true as a reunion between India and Pakistan. As I see
the situation in 50 years, Ukraine will become a member of Europian
community with its economy based on production, while Russia will be
still living on selling its almost infinite natural resources. Of
course, there is always a chance of getting crooked president and
government (which, unfortunately, is already the case). But I hope
that common sense of Ukrainian businessmen and Western nationalism
will be strong enough to prevent "Lukashenka scenario".
Leman.
Oleg Gorbik
КАЖУТЬ...
Andrey Nikolaev
Leman (a...@vot.i.ja) wrote:
: us...@host.sub.domain (user) wrote:
: >[...]
: >Alex.
: Leman.
Ah, Ukraine will be a member of Europian community. Ah my dear Leman,
dear day dreamer. Ukraine won't be member of civilized community till
the moment when government will be able to control mafia and corruption.
It's impossible to build democratic state with corruption rate 90%.
I.e. 9 from 10 officials are criminalized. The most curious fact is that
our patriotes are famous like corrupted officials. (f.e. Chornovil)
So our economy (Ukrainian) may be based only on selling drugs and our
patriotes and probably 'inspiration' from freedom (like once GRycar said).
But nobody needs our patriotes, probably all others are tired by their
stupidity, hate and ignorance, nobody needs our 'inspiration'. But Western
Europe likes our drugs.(Yeah, indeed they like it). So probably Ukraine
will be drug exporter in Europian cooperation.
As for Russia, hmm I don't know many facts. While my last visit to Moscow
I saw many interesting changes. They are moving towards wealthy life. And
they do it fast. Yes, their state is unstable yet, yes they have numerous
problems. But if they are in so bad conditions why are the prices on russian
value papers growing? Why do they invest big money in communications?
So, probably Russia will be member of Europian community before Ukraine.
Andrey
3.
NotMyRealAddress wrote:
>
> In article <5f7ikf$r...@lynx.dac.neu.edu> mkag...@lynx.dac.neu.edu (Michael Kagalenko) writes:
> >Dmitry Gryaznov (er...@dial.pipex.com) wrote in article <3316C2...@dial.pipex.com> <pre><blink>
> >]And you're talking about the language used in Kievan Rus in 9th-11th century -
> >]Old Slavonic, which was quite different from both modern Ukrainian and modern
> >]Russian.
> >
> > However, it is more different from modern Ukrainian then from modern
> > Russian.
> >
Certainly, Pushkin helped introduce many Church Slavonic expressions
into the living literate language, but these provide only a superficial
semblance to the language of Kyivska Rus.
3APA3A
3.
Hui-Klinskih wrote:
>
> Hugh G. Rection wrote:
>
idiot- I was using him as an example of Bolshevic Russian historical
cover-up, and not defending him.
Countless other historical figures and events were also rubbed out of
Soviet and Communist History (such as Czechoslovakia's Clementis, which
was dramatized in the "Book of Laughter and Forgetting"); Trotsky was
one of the more famous cases.
3APA3A
3.
24BE...@physics.berkeley.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
> Interesting. Although I am not the one who is accused, I must admit that
> I am ignorant on this subject too. I can see three possibilities,
> though:
>
> 1. Shevchenko indeed spent some time in what I thought is Siberia.
> 2. St. Petersberg is in Siberia.
> 3. Modern-day city of Shevchenko (on Caspian sea) is in Siberia.
>
> So I an trying to understand, am I ignorant in Hystory or geography.
>
> Yury
Your facts are correct, but Shevchenko was indeed extremely persecuted -
the theme of the previous article was correct. With all due respect,
you seem to be trying to somehow cloud the issue concerning his torments
in the hands of the Russian regime.
3APA3A
3APA3A
Hui-Klinskih wrote:
>
> Hugh G. Rection wrote:
>
> elimination of Trotsky's place in history, etc)
>
> TROTSKI'S PLACE IN HISTORY WAS AS FOLLOWS:
> HE WAS A BRILLIANT SPEAKER, PHILOSOPHER, REVOLUTIONARY.
> HE KNEW SEVEN LANGAUGES.
> HE CREATED RED ARMY, AND DURING WWI-CIVIL WAR, HE WAS GUIDING
> THE FOREFRONT OF IT -- HE WAS TRAVELLING BACK AND FORTH WITH HIS
> COMRADES -- SECRETARIAL PROSTITUTES (ABOUT 6-7 OF THEM) AND OTHER
> REVOLUTIONARY ASS-LICKERS. HIS FAVORITE
> METHOD OF MANAGING THE BREAKTHROUGHS OF RED ARMY'S POSITIONS BY WHITES
> WAS LINING UP THE READ ARMY'S RUNNING MEN AND THEN SHOTING EACH TENTH OF
> THEM. HE UNLISHED, BY THE ORDER OF LENIN, THE 'RED TERROR' THAT RESULTED
> IN MASS MURDER OF INNOCENT PEOPLE, INCLUDING UKRAINIAN PEASANTS.
> NOW, YOU, A NOBLE UKRAINIAN LEARNER OF HISTORY, ARE BEING PROUD OF
> HIM!!! MY CONGRATULATIONS TO YOU!!!
>
Pizdabol, I was merely using him as an example of Soviet incorrect
elimination of history, and not defending him. He was, like Stalin,
Cheka, and countless lesser assholes such as yourself, a jerk of course.
your 3APA3A (and not your only one I'll bet)
3APA3A
Hui-Klinskih wrote:
>
> Hugh G. Rection wrote:
>
> elimination of Trotsky's place in history, etc)
>
> TROTSKI'S PLACE IN HISTORY WAS AS FOLLOWS:
> HE WAS A BRILLIANT SPEAKER, PHILOSOPHER, REVOLUTIONARY.
> HE KNEW SEVEN LANGAUGES.
> HE CREATED RED ARMY, AND DURING WWI-CIVIL WAR, HE WAS GUIDING
> THE FOREFRONT OF IT -- HE WAS TRAVELLING BACK AND FORTH WITH HIS
> COMRADES -- SECRETARIAL PROSTITUTES (ABOUT 6-7 OF THEM) AND OTHER
> REVOLUTIONARY ASS-LICKERS. HIS FAVORITE
> METHOD OF MANAGING THE BREAKTHROUGHS OF RED ARMY'S POSITIONS BY WHITES
> WAS LINING UP THE READ ARMY'S RUNNING MEN AND THEN SHOTING EACH TENTH OF
> THEM. HE UNLISHED, BY THE ORDER OF LENIN, THE 'RED TERROR' THAT RESULTED
> IN MASS MURDER OF INNOCENT PEOPLE, INCLUDING UKRAINIAN PEASANTS.
> NOW, YOU, A NOBLE UKRAINIAN LEARNER OF HISTORY, ARE BEING PROUD OF
> HIM!!! MY CONGRATULATIONS TO YOU!!!
>
Pizdabol, I was only describing Trotsky's incorrect "elimination" from
Soviet History, not defending him. He was, like Stalin, Lenin, Cheka,
and lesser assholes such as yourself, a jerk of course.
your 3APA3A (and probably not your only one)
Yury Mukharsky
I am not trying to cloud anything. I am trying to make one thing cleah:
Oleh Snizhko does not know what he is talking about. As for Shevchenko
torments in the hands of russian regime, I, as any individual grown up
in (then the) Ukraine, recieved mine fare share of history of his
ordeals. Yes, his was not an easy life.
Yury
>
> 3APA3A
Oleg Sheremet
3APA3A wrote:
>
> Hui-Klinskih wrote:
> >
> > Hugh G. Rection wrote:
> >
> > elimination of Trotsky's place in history, etc)
> >
> > TROTSKI'S PLACE IN HISTORY WAS AS FOLLOWS:
> > HE WAS A BRILLIANT SPEAKER, PHILOSOPHER, REVOLUTIONARY.
> > HE KNEW SEVEN LANGAUGES.
> > HE CREATED RED ARMY, AND DURING WWI-CIVIL WAR, HE WAS GUIDING
> > THE FOREFRONT OF IT -- HE WAS TRAVELLING BACK AND FORTH WITH HIS
> > COMRADES -- SECRETARIAL PROSTITUTES (ABOUT 6-7 OF THEM) AND OTHER
> > REVOLUTIONARY ASS-LICKERS. HIS FAVORITE
> > METHOD OF MANAGING THE BREAKTHROUGHS OF RED ARMY'S POSITIONS BY WHITES
> > WAS LINING UP THE READ ARMY'S RUNNING MEN AND THEN SHOTING EACH TENTH OF
> > THEM. HE UNLISHED, BY THE ORDER OF LENIN, THE 'RED TERROR' THAT RESULTED
> > IN MASS MURDER OF INNOCENT PEOPLE, INCLUDING UKRAINIAN PEASANTS.
> > NOW, YOU, A NOBLE UKRAINIAN LEARNER OF HISTORY, ARE BEING PROUD OF
> > HIM!!! MY CONGRATULATIONS TO YOU!!!
> >
>
> elimination of history, and not defending him. He was, like Stalin,
> Cheka, and countless lesser assholes such as yourself, a jerk of course.
>
> your 3APA3A (and not your only one I'll bet)
Do you really think that Cheka was a person? Very original...
Dan Korolev
a...@vot.i.ja (Leman) writes:
>The words "imperialistic" and "propaganda" were not invented by
>communists and are quite suited for this particular sentence. I hope
>you agree that Russia was always (and still is) an empire. Also, it
>would be hard to imagine any politics without propaganda. As for my
>logic, I don't see anything illogical in saying that claiming Kyivan
>heritage could be a prelude to claiming Kyivan territories as well.
Look, let's keep it all in the perspective. Regardless of the historical details
that the propagandists from both sides argue about, the basic facts still remain:
1. Before the Mongol invasion, the people of Kyiv, Novgorod, Vladimir, Suzdal etc
were part of the same "narod" (people) much more so than the people of various
small german kingdoms were part of the same German nation.
2. They all spoke the same language: Old Slavonic, maybe with minor regional
dialects.
3. They all belonged to the same religeon: Orthodox Christianity.
4. After they got separated, neither people was happy under the Mongol and Polish
occupations respectively and rebelled on numerous occasions until they succeeded
in getting rid of occupiers.
5. During the time of separation, the two languages did diverge and are now
farther apart than North German and Swiss German.
But:
6. The national religeons of both peoples remain the same: Orhtodox Christianity.
The cultures are also very similar. No matter how much you try to deny it, but
both peoples like the same kind of food, music, literature. Now, I do not expect
the Americans in htis group, who know nothing about Ukriane but just want Ukraine
and Russia to become enemies, to know what Ukrianians like or dislike. So, they
will dispute this out of ignorance.
7. Yes, the Ukrainians have suffered tremendously under the rule of Joseph
Dzhugashvili (a fellow from Georgia) and Leonid Brezhnev (a fellow from Ukraine)
and other Commie leaders. But so have all other people including Russians. if you
insist that Ukrainians have suffered more than others - so be it.
8. Yes, in 1991-92, when the whole country was trying to rid itself of the
Communist yolk, all republics, including Belarus, Ukraine and Russia, were happy
to break up in order to get rid of Soviet rule.
9. Given ethnic, religeous, cultural, linguistic kinship, the Russian and
Ukrainian peoples as individuals have historically considered each other (as
individuals) as part of the same "crowd". As such, they intermarried with complete
ease over the last several centuries. As a result, a "typical" Russian may be 60%
"Russian" and 40% "Ukrainian" and a "typical" Ukrainian (outside of the Lviv
part of Ukraine, where the people are mostly Polish/Ukrainian) is 60% Ukrainian
and 40% Russian.
10. About half of residents of Ukriane consider themselves ethnic Russians or
Russian-speaking Jews, Armenians, Greeks etc. They consider the separation of
Ukriane and Russia to be against their wish. Not only that, but so do many ethnic
Ukrainians of Orthodox culture, i.e, the vast majority of the country.
11. More "ethnic Ukrainians" live in Russia than in Ukraine and speak only Russian
and consider the separation of Ukriane and Russia to be against their wish.
And so on.
So, what do we have? We have two countries, the populations of both are
extremely fond of each ohter and want to keep the closest possible ties.
What stands in the way of their unity?
1. The aspirations of the people of Western Ukraine. Aside from language
similarities and common Slavic roots, these people have much less in common with
the Kyivan Rus Ukrainians and with Russians than with Poles and Lithuanians. Even
the very basis of their culture, religeon, is different! They are Catholic just
like their Polish and Lithuanian brothers, as opposed to Kyivan Rus, modern
Eastern and central Ukraine and Russia, who are all Orthodox. Why these catholics
try to lay claim to the Orthodox Kyivan Rus heritage, when they have their own
proud Polish heritage - I don't know. But I do understand their apprehensions at
the thought of ther friendship between the Ukrainian Orthdox and Russian
Orthodox. Afterall, we have all seen how religeon causes wars, and how people of
the same ethnicity commit genocide against each other purely on religeous grounds.
One can look at mideaval France, England or modern Yugoslavia and Ireland.
2. Both countries are politically unstable at the moment, and any union with an
unstable country is dangerous. Thus, until Russia gains political and economic
stability, no union is in hte cards.
3. Everybody likes to rule and nobody likes to serve other rulers. By splitting a
country into, say, two pieces, you get twice as many Presidents, Prime Ministers,
Parlamentarians, you increase the number of beurocrats. They love it! Thus, they
will try to prevent any re-unification. Moreover, the same beurocrats will try to
carve up their own countries into smaller and smaller peices so that each
egomaniac beurocrat could get some peoplle over whom he could exercis efull
control with nobody looking over his shoulder.
But in the long run, the people of Ukriane and Russia will keep their closeness
and may re-unite in maybe 20 years or so. Moreover, any foreign power that tries
to drive a wedge between the two, will make its own enemies out of both countries.
Regards,
Dan
Dan Korolev
"3." <3AP...@uoft02.utoledo.edu> writes:
> Certainly, Pushkin helped introduce many Church Slavonic expressions
>into the living literate language, but these provide only a superficial
>semblance to the language of Kyivska Rus.
Could you please tell me what religeon this "Kyivska Rus" was based on and how
come so many Roman Catholics are now claiming to be cultural descendants of this
Orthodox "Kyivska Rus"? Do they not understand that their hostility towards
Orthodox people is invitation towards another Yugoslav disaster?
GRycar
Dan Korolev;
Where did you learn your history? In the Soviet Union?
That explaines it.
I do, however, bring to your attention that Ukrainian
Catholics do have substantively more in common with the Church of Kyivan
Rus than the mongol orthodox church in Russia. That you do not know this
is because you do not know history save for the lies thought you by the
masters of lies in the culture of lies, meaning Russia. No there is no
danger of a Yugoslavia in Ukraine. Tjis is wishful Russian thinking from a
culture of evil and stupidity. There no conflict between Orthodox and
Catholic Ukrainians! The problem is the nefarious Russian church in
Ukraine which will hopefully disapear in the near future.
I will respond to your leanghty anf prevaricatory post
relative to National identity as my time permits.
No Ukrainians are not Russians and Western Ukraine is
substantively closer to Kyivan Rus than Mongol Russia, do become more
knowledgable and you will not make these errors again.
George R.