Re: Ukraine To Formalize Charges Against Genociding Russian Soviets
ostap_be...@hotmail.com
> For informational purposes:
>
> "Ukraine accuses Moscow of genocide over 1932 famine that killed
> millions
> Date: 27 May 2009
>
> The Ukrainian government has waged a long campaign in the
> international arena to have the famine classified as genocide, while
> some Ukrainian nationalists argue that Russia, as the successor to the
> Soviet Union, should now be held responsible.
>
> With Ukraine and Russia at odds over links to the West and energy,
> Kiev's genocide claims have assumed a political dimension. Some in
> Russia consider Ukraine's willingness to open old wounds as evidence
> of its determination to antagonise Moscow and seek sympathy in the
> West.
>
> But opposition to the inquiry also comes from within Ukraine, with
> some politicians questioning the sense of investigating events of 70-
> plus years ago.
>
> "From the legal point of view, what the security service is doing is
> absurd," said Gennady Moskal, a member of parliament. "Who will
> criminal charges be brought against? Maybe against a cemetery? Who can
> be brought to justice? If a person was 18 years old in 1933, then how
> old are they now when criminal proceedings are beginning?" "
>
> http://news.scotsman.com/world/Ukraine-accuses-Moscow-of-genocide.530...
> ...
> Well... it's about time they did this.
>
Of course. High time. Previously, Yuschenko opponents accused
Yuschenko of orchestrating the "Holodomor" hysteria with a goal of re-
directing the Ukrainian people's anger towards him in the direction of
Russia, while Yuschenko denied he had any russophobic intentions:
ttp://engforum.pravda.ru/showthread.php?t=250219
03 April, 2009, 12:41
Ukrainian President Viktor Yushchenko has publicly cleared Russia from
all responsibility for the Holodomor. In a live interview for Russian
radio station ‘Echo Moskvy’ on Wednesday, Yushchenko noted that the
Holodomor famine “is not the responsibility of Russia or the Russian
people.”
The new accusations prove what everybody knows anyway: that Yuschenko
has been lying about his intentions.
Many Yuschenko supporters have been clamoring for blaming Russia for
years:
------------------------------
http://www.pro-vincia.com.ua/article-a-196.html
In his speech during the official opening of the monument to the
victims of Holodomor, the head of Zaporizhie nationalists Vasyl
Tymchina declared: "Our time has come, and soon the Dnieper will be
red with the blood of Zhids (Jews) and Moscals (Russians)!"
------------------------------
This is not the end of the story, as the victims of the famine in
Oklahoma, USA are also preparing to accuse Russia of manufacturing the
Oklahoma famine and will probably demand $billions of dollars in
compensation:
------------------------------
Andrey Merkulov is a deputy at Sevastopol’s city council. He describes
how he found evidence that special services in his town were
falsifying historical facts. “Here’s a photo by Dorothy Lang, shot in
1936 in Oklahoma. And here’s a photo by Fritof Nansen made in Russia’s
Povolzhe region in 1921. But both of those pictures and other
falsified photos were displayed at Sevastopol’s exhibition on the
Ukrainian famine of 1932-1933,” Merkulov says, demonstrating aged
photographs.
------------------------------
It is highly symbolic that the people, who are investigating the
"Holodomor crimes", are the Ukrainian Security people, the majority of
whose senior officers worked in the Soviet KGB. Their KGB skills serve
them well now, allowing them to find photos of foreign famines at high
speed.
It is, however, not known if the Ukrainian Security people, in charge
of the Holodomor investigation, are the same gentlemen that
administered dioxin poisoning to Yuschenko himself back in 2004 and
then conducted a “thorough investigation” trying to find a scapegoat
for this poisoning:
-----------------------------------------------------
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4041321.stm
Security services
But it also transpired that shortly before becoming ill, Mr Yushchenko
had had dinner with the chairman of the Ukrainian Security Service
(SBU), Ihor Smeshko, and his deputy, Volodymyr Satsiuk. Mr Yushchenko
himself had called for the meeting to discuss the security services'
role in the election campaign.
Mr Smeshko made no secret of the dinner when he spoke to journalists
on 28 September, after reporting to a parliamentary commission of
inquiry. He later said it was a "matter of honour" for the SBU to
investigate the poisoning allegations.
For Mr Yushchenko's supporters, the fact that their candidate fell ill
after dining with the security chiefs appeared to confirm the
poisoning theory.
MYSTERY ILLNESS TIMELINE:
5 September: Yushchenko has dinner with Security Service chief
6 September: Yushchenko falls ill, Ukrainian doctors diagnose food
poisoning
----------------------------------------
What else do you expect from a man, who made Roman Shukhevych into a
Hero of Ukraine just to fan the hatred towards Russians. Shukhevych is
the man who swore to follow Hitler's orders to the grave and whose
Nachtigall (German for "nightingale") battalion was responsible of
some of the most horrible crimes in murdering thousands of innocent
Jewish and Polish civilians:
------------------------------
http://www.zeit.de/2001/26/200126_a-lemberg.xml?page=2
Die Zeit
Blutige Ouvertüre. Lemberg, 30. Juni 1941: Mit dem Einmarsch der
Wehrmachttruppen beginnt der Judenmord
Während Familienmitglieder nach ihren Angehörigen suchen, zwingen die
ukrainischen Soldaten des Bataillons "Nachtigall" unter dem Befehl
deutscher Offiziere die herbeigeschafften Juden, auf Knien zu den
Leichen zu kriechen und sie zu waschen. Jüdische Frauen und Mädchen
werden mit Gejohle entkleidet und dann fotografiert; den alten Männern
reißt man die Barthaare aus.
Dafür spricht schon die Tatsache, dass dem Kommando mit dem
ukrainischen Bataillon "Nachtigall" ein fanatisch antisemitisches und
aus Ortskundigen bestehendes Hilfskontingent zur Verfügung stand. Es
sollen denn auch, Augenzeugen zufolge, Angehörige dieser Truppe
gewesen sein, die, gleich nach dem Einmarsch und noch im Morgengrauen
des 30. Juni, die Leichen der NKDW-Opfer in den Gefängnissen
verstümmelt haben.
Eine erweiterte Fassung dieses Beitrag erschien soeben in der
"Zeitschrift für Geschichtswissenschaft" Nr. 5 (Metropol Verlag,
Berlin; 24,- DM; ISSN 0044-2828)
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massaker_an_den_Lemberger_Professoren
Gleichzeitig wurde mit Hilfe ukrainischer Studenten eine Liste der
etwa 45 Lemberger Professoren angefertigt, samt ihren
Familienangehörigen und allen Personen, die sich in ihren Wohnungen
aufhielten. In der Nacht vom 3. zum 4. Juli wurden diese
Professorenfamilien von der Gestapo und von Soldaten des
Nachtigallbataillons verhaftet und noch in der gleichen Nacht
erschossen. Man vermutete, dass bei dem Verbrechen auch Raubmotive
eine Rolle spielten, weil die Wohnungen selbst geplündert und der
Kunst- und Wertgegenstände beraubt wurden.
The Ukrainian Legion.
... Germans established, at the beginning of 1941, the 700 - man
Ukrainian Legion. In May 1941 the legion was divided into two
battalions named Nachtigall and Roland. [...] The Ukrainian commander
of this unit [Nachtigall] was Roman Shukhevych.
When the Germans invaded the USSR on June 22, 1941, Nachtigall was
sent to serve at the front in the area of Przemysl. By June 30,
Nachtigall had entered Lvov, together with some German units. The
soldiers of the battalion participated, with the Germans and the
Ukrainian mob in the city, in the riots and the killing of Jews that
took place between June 30 and July 3. During those days, Jews were
kidnapped in the streets of the city, brought to concentration centers
in several prisons, and brutally killed. Four thousand of them were
murdered during the four days of rioting.
... Nachtigall passed through Zolochev and Ternopol and reached the
area of Vinnitsa. On the way, members of the battalion took part in
pogroms against Jews. .... In October 1941, many of its members were
attached to German military units engaged in suppressing partisans in
Belorussia. On December 1 of that year, the battalion was finally
disbanded. Some of its members joined Ukrainian auxiliary police units
in the service of the Germans.
http://books.google.com/books?id=A4FlatJCro4C&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_summary_r&cad=0#PPP1,M1
Poland's Holocaust By Tadeusz Piotrowski
Published by McFarland, 1998
ISBN 0786403713, 9780786403714
[Wiki summary: In his book, Polish historian Tadeusz Piotrowski lists
eyewitness accounts of the Lviv massacres, including Czeslaw Lucszak's
claim that Nachtigall murdered Polish populace. A. Rzepicki believes
that Nachtigall was used for the roundup of the Jews. According to a
study by Wlodzimierz Bonusiak, the Jewish and Polish pogroms were
carried out by 4 different formations: Ukrainian police, Nachtigall,
Feldgestapo, and Einsatzkommando. On May 2 1966, the Hamburg
Procurator von Belov wrote: "Findings inside and outside the country
produced the following conclusions. [...] The Ukrainian Liberation
Army took part in these outrages which also involved arbitrary
killings". Professor A. Norden and Werner Brockdorff concur.]
--------------------------------
vello
Many estonians, latvians and finns do find it natural, that Russia
would give back territories occupied during ww2. But it is not
position of official Riga, Tallinn or Helsinki. no way it says that
leaders of three mentioned nations are liars.
ostap_be...@hotmail.com
> On May 29, 12:32 pm, ostap_bender_1...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> > On May 28, 8:29 pm, lorad <lorad...@cs.com> wrote:
>
> > > For informational purposes:
>
> > > "Ukraine accuses Moscow of genocide over 1932 famine that killed
> > > millions
> > > Date: 27 May 2009
>
> > > The Ukrainian government has waged a long campaign in the
> > > international arena to have the famine classified as genocide, while
> > > some Ukrainian nationalists argue that Russia, as the successor to the
> > > Soviet Union, should now be held responsible.
>
> > > Well... it's about time they did this.
>
> > Of course. High time. Previously, Yuschenko opponents accused
> > Yuschenko of orchestrating the "Holodomor" hysteria with a goal of re-
> > directing the Ukrainian people's anger towards him in the direction of
> > Russia, while Yuschenko denied he had any russophobic intentions:
>
> > ttp://engforum.pravda.ru/showthread.php?t=250219
> > 03 April, 2009, 12:41
> > Ukrainian President Viktor Yushchenko has publicly cleared Russia from
> > all responsibility for the Holodomor. In a live interview for Russian
> > radio station ‘Echo Moskvy’ on Wednesday, Yushchenko noted that the
> > Holodomor famine “is not the responsibility of Russia or the Russian
> > people.”
>
> > The new accusations prove what everybody knows anyway: that Yuschenko
> > has been lying about his intentions.
>
> would give back territories occupied during ww2. But it is not
> position of official Riga, Tallinn or Helsinki. no way it says that
> leaders of three mentioned nations are liars.
>
1, What does WW2 have with the 1932 famine in Ukraine, Russia,
Kazakhstan and Belarus?
2. What does the fact that "many estonians, latvians and finns do
find it natural, that Russia would give back territories occupied
during ww2" have with the fact that Yuschenko has been lying about his
true hidden agenda concerning Golodomor?
3. Why is Lithuania conspicuously missing from the list of the Baltic
countries that think that “territories occupied during ww2” should be
given back to their previous owners? Would many Lithuanians also “find
it natural, that Russia would give back territories occupied during
ww2”? Do many Lithuanians also “find it natural, that **Lithuania**
should give back territories occupied during ww2”? Do "many
estonians, latvians and finns find it natural, that **Lithuania**
would give back territories occupied during ww2"?
Or is this the case of the usual Baltic political mentality: “what’s
mine is mine, and what’s yours is mine”? Why would Balts think that
Russia should “give back territories occupied during ww2" while
Lithuania should keep such territories?
ch....@hotmail.com
Nothing contradictory whatsoever between Yushchenko's interview and
the article stated. According to the article the studies will link
the crimes to Soviets. The SBU statement read: "through murder, the
forcible collectivisation of agriculture, dispossession, deportation
and confiscation, the Soviet authorities had "aimed at organising
hunger to kill the Ukrainian people as an ethnic group" anf "The
Stalinist regime wanted to create living conditions that would result
in the total physical elimination of ethnic Ukrainians."
There is no mention of the SBU or Ukrainian government Russia or the
Russian nation in the article posted by lorad. Only that some
nationalists do. The SBU and some nationalists are not the same.
Anyone should welcome an investiagation of the criminal Soviet
regime's role in the Famine. The guys in Ukraine who are opposed are
probably communist party members.
regards,
BM
vello
Nothing. It's about your accusation that if Yuchchenko's supporters
accuse Russia in Golodomor Genocide, it must be also position of Ukr
President - or he is liar :-)
>
> 2. What does the fact that "many estonians, latvians and finns do
> find it natural, that Russia would give back territories occupied
> during ww2" have with the fact that Yuschenko has been lying about his
> true hidden agenda concerning Golodomor?
Do you have some device to see into Yuchenko's head? If not, stop
making up "facts".
>
> 3. Why is Lithuania conspicuously missing from the list of the Baltic
> countries that think that “territories occupied during ww2” should be
> given back to their previous owners?
What you find weird here? Lithuania as not robbed, more, they get back
Vilnius.
Would many Lithuanians also “find
> it natural, that Russia would give back territories occupied during
> ww2”?
No idea. how it is tied to my post?
Do many Lithuanians also “find it natural, that **Lithuania**
> should give back territories occupied during ww2”?
I think not many lithuanians - they don't occupied a single piece of
land during ww2.
Do "many
> estonians, latvians and finns find it natural, that **Lithuania**
> would give back territories occupied during ww2"?
Also I think not too many people in mentioned countries think this way
- Vilnius is historical capital city for Lithuania.
>
> Or is this the case of the usual Baltic political mentality: “what’s
> mine is mine, and what’s yours is mine”? Why would Balts think that
> Russia should “give back territories occupied during ww2" while
> Lithuania should keep such territories?- Hide quoted text -
>
Bender, are you able to read? My post was not about position of Baltic
states on anything - it was to show that some individuals may think
that they want, it is not ground to call President a liar if he talks
different things if some people in particular country.
captain!
i'm still amazed at how few people that i talk to know what the holodomor
is.
<ostap_be...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:9d5de86d-d09e-4ca2...@o18g2000yqi.googlegroups.com...
------------------------------
http://www.pro-vincia.com.ua/article-a-196.html
------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4041321.stm
Security services
MYSTERY ILLNESS TIMELINE:
------------------------------
http://www.zeit.de/2001/26/200126_a-lemberg.xml?page=2
Die Zeit
Blutige Ouvert�re. Lemberg, 30. Juni 1941: Mit dem Einmarsch der
Wehrmachttruppen beginnt der Judenmord
W�hrend Familienmitglieder nach ihren Angeh�rigen suchen, zwingen die
ukrainischen Soldaten des Bataillons "Nachtigall" unter dem Befehl
deutscher Offiziere die herbeigeschafften Juden, auf Knien zu den
Leichen zu kriechen und sie zu waschen. J�dische Frauen und M�dchen
werden mit Gejohle entkleidet und dann fotografiert; den alten M�nnern
rei�t man die Barthaare aus.
Daf�r spricht schon die Tatsache, dass dem Kommando mit dem
ukrainischen Bataillon "Nachtigall" ein fanatisch antisemitisches und
aus Ortskundigen bestehendes Hilfskontingent zur Verf�gung stand. Es
sollen denn auch, Augenzeugen zufolge, Angeh�rige dieser Truppe
gewesen sein, die, gleich nach dem Einmarsch und noch im Morgengrauen
des 30. Juni, die Leichen der NKDW-Opfer in den Gef�ngnissen
verst�mmelt haben.
Eine erweiterte Fassung dieses Beitrag erschien soeben in der
"Zeitschrift f�r Geschichtswissenschaft" Nr. 5 (Metropol Verlag,
Berlin; 24,- DM; ISSN 0044-2828)
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massaker_an_den_Lemberger_Professoren
Gleichzeitig wurde mit Hilfe ukrainischer Studenten eine Liste der
etwa 45 Lemberger Professoren angefertigt, samt ihren
Familienangeh�rigen und allen Personen, die sich in ihren Wohnungen
aufhielten. In der Nacht vom 3. zum 4. Juli wurden diese
Professorenfamilien von der Gestapo und von Soldaten des
Nachtigallbataillons verhaftet und noch in der gleichen Nacht
erschossen. Man vermutete, dass bei dem Verbrechen auch Raubmotive
eine Rolle spielten, weil die Wohnungen selbst gepl�ndert und der
Kunst- und Wertgegenst�nde beraubt wurden.
captain!
<ch....@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:8e849288-6945-4998...@h23g2000vbc.googlegroups.com...
regards,
BM
////////////////////////////////////
rusty feels that it was a genocide attempt. do you feel the same way?
if so, what is your opinion on the southern russians also affected by the
forced famine. i also noticed that karla mentioned kazakhstan, which until
now i was unaware of as being included in the famine.
ostap.b...@gmail.com
I would take the members of the modern Ukrainian Communist Party over
the members of the Ukrainian ex-KGB any day.
My main point, that I will explain below, is that Golodomor was not an
intentional act of genocide against Ukrainians but a direct
consequence of Stalin’s social and economic policies all across USSR.
>
> ////////////////////////////////////
>
> rusty feels that it was a genocide attempt. do you feel the same way?
> if so, what is your opinion on the southern russians also affected by the
> forced famine. i also noticed that karla mentioned kazakhstan, which until
> now i was unaware of as being included in the famine.
>
That's because of the decades-long propagandist agenda, which doesn’t
want the masses to know that the Famine of 1932-33 also exterminated
people in all other grain-producing areas of the USSR - Kazakhstan,
Siberia, Volga, North Caucuses, and South Russia. Look, for example,
at the way these people write in their Wiki article on Holodomor:
-------------------------------------------------------
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor
The Holodomor (Ukrainian: Голодомор [Golodomor], translation: death by
starvation) refers to the famine of 1932–1933 in the Ukrainian SSR
during which millions of people were starved to death because of the
Soviet policies that forced farmers into collective farms.... The
famine affected the Ukrainian SSR as well as the Moldavian ASSR (a
part of the Ukrainian S.S.R. at the time)
-------------------------------------
Quite authoritative and convincing, eh? Only Ukrainian SSSR was
affected by the famine! Oh, and Moldova too, but only those parts of
“Moldova” which were part of the Ukrainian SSR
[Side note: Of course, the **real** Moldova was not even part of the
USSR at that time. The phrase “the Ukrainian SSR as well as the
Moldavian ASSR” exposes the authors as NATO-ass-lickers and Stalin-
admirers, who deny that Transdniestria (named “Moldovan ASSR” by
Stalin in order to justify his plans to annex the **real** Moldova,
which he did later, in 1939-40) has nothing to do with Moldova and
should be returned to Ukraine. Also, see the map right below to
convince yourself that this Stalin’s “Moldovan ASSR” didn’t even
suffer from Golodomor.]
But look at the main map these propagandists included:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Holodomor_Famine_map.jpg
You cannot really see the borders between Ukrainian SSR and the
Russian SFSR there, nor any other borders. So, use some other map of
the USSR. Or use the rough rule that the Russian SFSR starts right to
the east of the Sea of Azov. Also keep in mind that Crimea was part of
the Russian SFSR and had nothing to do with Ukraine.
You will see that at the southern latitudes, the rates of death in the
Ukrainian SSR is 20%+, about the same as in the Russian SFSR (except
for the Kalmyk ASSR (0%), populated by nomadic Kalmyk Buddhists who
were not into grain growing.
BTW, these percentages agree with the percentages computed by Viktor
Kondrashin (see below).
In fact, notice that the Western-most part of the Ukrainian SSR –
which had the highest percentage of ethnic Ukrainians and the greatest
number of anti-Bolsheviks and Uke nationalists – suffered much less
than the rest, much less than, say, the Russian Crimea.
Of course, Kazakhstan, Siberia and most of Volga are not on this map.
In reality, **all** grain-producing regions of the USSR suffered from
Stalin's famine in 1932-33, including South Russia, Kazakhstan, North
Caucuses, Russian Volga region, and Southern Siberia.
Since you asked about Kazakhstan, here it is:
-----------------------------------------
http://www.rferl.org/content/A_Tragedy_Kazakhstan_Must_Never_Forget/1357455.html.
Radio Free Europe
A Tragedy Kazakhstan Must Never Forget
According to historian Talas Omarbekov of Kazakhstan's State
University, who was granted access to Soviet archives about the famine
in the 1980s, the famine took as many as 2.3 million lives in
Kazakhstan. During a conference devoted to the Ukrainian famine last
month, Russians historians estimated that Kazakhstan had lost 1.5
million people during the famine.
-----------------------------------------
Here is the information about the 1932-33 Famine from Viktor
Kondrashin, the leading expert on Stalin’s crimes against Soviet
peasants, including collectivization, de-kulakisation, the 1932-33
famine, and other tragedies; as well as on the peasant rebellions
against the Bolsheviks:
http://echo.msk.ru/programs/staliname/540954-echo/
In The Name of Stalin
The live interview program on the radio network Echo of Moscow and the
international TV network RTVi
20 September 2008
Summary:
In 1932-33:
Ukrainian SSR rural areas lost 5.4 million people out of 25 million.
That’s about 22%
Russian SFSR lost 5.6 million people in the Volga, South Urals/
Siberia, South Russia, and North Caucuses rural areas, out of 33
million. That’s about 18%
Kazakhstan lost up to 2 million people
Kondrashin also confirms what I have maintained all along: the main
cause of the 1932-33 Famine was as follows. Stalin wanted instant
industrialization. This needed enormous purchases of foreign
equipment. To fund these purchases, Stalin took grain from the Soviet
peasants, sold it abroad and bought his equipment with the proceeds.
The peasants were left to die of famine. Of course, Stalin’s forced
collectivization and “de-kulakisation” (extermination of all “kulaks”,
i.e., of all skilled and non-lazy farmers) also contributed to the
1932-33 famine, plus it took another 6.5 million farmer lives on top
of the Famine!!!
As I have written earlier, all of this was due primarily to Comrade
Stalin personally and was opposed not only by Trotsky in exile, but
also by Bukharin, Rykov, Zinoviyev and most other Bolshevik leaders at
that time, all shot in the Purges of 1937. As Kondrashin puts it: “The
main reason was the victory of Stalin’s faction inside the Bolshevik
Party”.
ostap.b...@gmail.com
> the question of genocide will remain an issue for a very long time.
> i'm still amazed at how few people that i talk to know what the holodomor
> is.
>
That's because your Vancouver has little say in the decision among the
Ukrainain citizens as to whether Ukraine should renounce and denounce
its neutrality commitments and join NATO. Currently, about 70% of
Ukrainains oppose. Worse than that, Yuscehnko himself is universally
hated by almost all voters. If this persists, Golodomor will be
whipped up by the Yuschenko government into such a hysteria, that
everything else in the life of Ukraine will be forgotten, especially
Yuschenko's and NATO's unpopularity with the voters.
>
> <ostap_bender_1...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> http://www.russiatoday.com/Top_News/2009-04-03/Rewriting_Ukrainian_hi...
> Blutige Ouvertüre. Lemberg, 30. Juni 1941: Mit dem Einmarsch der
> Wehrmachttruppen beginnt der Judenmord
>
> Während Familienmitglieder nach ihren Angehörigen suchen, zwingen die
> ukrainischen Soldaten des Bataillons "Nachtigall" unter dem Befehl
> deutscher Offiziere die herbeigeschafften Juden, auf Knien zu den
> Leichen zu kriechen und sie zu waschen. Jüdische Frauen und Mädchen
> werden mit Gejohle entkleidet und dann fotografiert; den alten Männern
> reißt man die Barthaare aus.
>
> Dafür spricht schon die Tatsache, dass dem Kommando mit dem
> ukrainischen Bataillon "Nachtigall" ein fanatisch antisemitisches und
> aus Ortskundigen bestehendes Hilfskontingent zur Verfügung stand. Es
> sollen denn auch, Augenzeugen zufolge, Angehörige dieser Truppe
> gewesen sein, die, gleich nach dem Einmarsch und noch im Morgengrauen
> des 30. Juni, die Leichen der NKDW-Opfer in den Gefängnissen
> verstümmelt haben.
>
> Eine erweiterte Fassung dieses Beitrag erschien soeben in der
> "Zeitschrift für Geschichtswissenschaft" Nr. 5 (Metropol Verlag,
> Berlin; 24,- DM; ISSN 0044-2828)
>
> http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massaker_an_den_Lemberger_Professoren
>
> Gleichzeitig wurde mit Hilfe ukrainischer Studenten eine Liste der
> etwa 45 Lemberger Professoren angefertigt, samt ihren
> Familienangehörigen und allen Personen, die sich in ihren Wohnungen
> aufhielten. In der Nacht vom 3. zum 4. Juli wurden diese
> Professorenfamilien von der Gestapo und von Soldaten des
> Nachtigallbataillons verhaftet und noch in der gleichen Nacht
> erschossen. Man vermutete, dass bei dem Verbrechen auch Raubmotive
> eine Rolle spielten, weil die Wohnungen selbst geplündert und der
> Kunst- und Wertgegenstände beraubt wurden.
>
> http://web.archive.org/web/20080212081328/http://motlc.learningcenter...
>
> The Ukrainian Legion.
>
> ... Germans established, at the beginning of 1941, the 700 - man
> Ukrainian Legion. In May 1941 the legion was divided into two
> battalions named Nachtigall and Roland. [...] The Ukrainian commander
> of this unit [Nachtigall] was Roman Shukhevych.
>
> When the Germans invaded the USSR on June 22, 1941, Nachtigall was
> sent to serve at the front in the area of Przemysl. By June 30,
> Nachtigall had entered Lvov, together with some German units. The
> soldiers of the battalion participated, with the Germans and the
> Ukrainian mob in the city, in the riots and the killing of Jews that
> took place between June 30 and July 3. During those days, Jews were
> kidnapped in the streets of the city, brought to concentration centers
> in several prisons, and brutally killed. Four thousand of them were
> murdered during the four days of rioting.
>
> ... Nachtigall passed through Zolochev and Ternopol and reached the
> area of Vinnitsa. On the way, members of the battalion took part in
> pogroms against Jews. .... In October 1941, many of its members were
> attached to German military units engaged in suppressing partisans in
> Belorussia. On December 1 of that year, the battalion was finally
> disbanded. Some of its members joined Ukrainian auxiliary police units
> in the service of the Germans.
>
> http://books.google.com/books?id=A4FlatJCro4C&printsec=frontcover&sou...
>
> Poland's Holocaust By Tadeusz Piotrowski
> Published by McFarland, 1998
> ISBN 0786403713, 9780786403714
>
> [Wiki summary: In his book, Polish historian Tadeusz Piotrowski lists
> eyewitness accounts of the Lviv massacres, including Czeslaw Lucszak's
> claim that Nachtigall murdered Polish populace. A. Rzepicki believes
> that Nachtigall was used for the roundup of the Jews. According to a
> study by Wlodzimierz Bonusiak, the Jewish and Polish pogroms were
> carried out by 4 different formations: Ukrainian police, Nachtigall,
> Feldgestapo, and Einsatzkommando. On May 2 1966, the HamburgProcurator von Belov wrote: "Findings inside and outside the country
ostap.b...@gmail.com
> forcible collectivisation of agriculture, dispossession, deportation
> and confiscation, the Soviet authorities had "aimed at organising
> hunger to kill the Ukrainian people as an ethnic group" anf "The
> Stalinist regime wanted to create living conditions that would result
> in the total physical elimination of ethnic Ukrainians."
>
> There is no mention of the SBU or Ukrainian government Russia or the
> Russian nation in the article posted by lorad. Only that some
> nationalists do. The SBU and some nationalists are not the same.
> Anyone should welcome an investiagation of the criminal Soviet
> regime's role in the Famine.
>
Come on, BM. Do some basic reality check. Look, I would certainly
welcome a full and thorough investigation of Golodomor done by
historians. i wouldn't object if this day were declared a Sacred Day
all over the ex-USSR.
But have this historical event investigated by the Security Service?!
How bizarre. This happened 77 years ago. The people, responsible for
ordering any of it, are now between 105 and 140 years old. Many are
even older. How many 110-year-old gentlemen does the Security Service
plan to arrest and imprison? :-)
How would you react if Putin ordered the FSB to investigate Genghiz
Khan's Mongol occupation of Russia? Wouldn't you have some suspicion
that maybe the purpose here is not so much to imprison 800-year-old
Mongol generals, but to provoke an anti-Mongol hysteria?
Or what if Putin ordered the FSB detectives to investigate the Polish
Army's crimes against Russia, Belarus and Ukraine during the Civil War
around 1919-1920? Or the Red Latvian Riflemen's role in the Bolshevik
crimes in the period of 1917-1920? Would you really call it a sincere
effort at bringing individual criminals to justice? Wouldn't you call
this a vulgar attempt at anti-Polish and anti-Latvian mass hysteria?
Or, what would you say if Obama asked the FBI and the CIA to conduct a
thorough investigation of the Great Depression? Yes, there were many
people, criminally responsible for causing the Great Depression (just
like Bernie Medoff today). But given that this happened eight decades
ago, wouldn't you expect this task to be done by historians and
economists, and not by the police/security?
captain!
<ostap.b...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:32a6b174-4bed-4a22...@y17g2000yqn.googlegroups.com...
>
> rusty feels that it was a genocide attempt. do you feel the same way?
> if so, what is your opinion on the southern russians also affected by the
> forced famine. i also noticed that karla mentioned kazakhstan, which until
> now i was unaware of as being included in the famine.
>
That's because of the decades-long propagandist agenda, which doesn't
want the masses to know that the Famine of 1932-33 also exterminated
people in all other grain-producing areas of the USSR - Kazakhstan,
Siberia, Volga, North Caucuses, and South Russia. Look, for example,
at the way these people write in their Wiki article on Holodomor:
-------------------------------------------------------
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor
The Holodomor (Ukrainian: ????????? [Golodomor], translation: death by
starvation) refers to the famine of 1932-1933 in the Ukrainian SSR
during which millions of people were starved to death because of the
Soviet policies that forced farmers into collective farms.... The
famine affected the Ukrainian SSR as well as the Moldavian ASSR (a
part of the Ukrainian S.S.R. at the time)
-------------------------------------
/////////////////////
first of all, it's wiki. a couple of weeks ago i was reading a wiki article
and someone had "hacked" it and inserted hilarious profanity at key points.
but they may have you there. "holodomor" is used specifically to refer to
what happened in ukraine, so they would not be required to mention any other
areas that experienced famine at the time, although it should at least be
mentioned in the article somewhere and probably is.
///////////////////
Quite authoritative and convincing, eh? Only Ukrainian SSSR was
affected by the famine! Oh, and Moldova too, but only those parts of
"Moldova" which were part of the Ukrainian SSR
[Side note: Of course, the **real** Moldova was not even part of the
USSR at that time. The phrase "the Ukrainian SSR as well as the
Moldavian ASSR" exposes the authors as NATO-ass-lickers and Stalin-
admirers, who deny that Transdniestria (named "Moldovan ASSR" by
Stalin in order to justify his plans to annex the **real** Moldova,
which he did later, in 1939-40) has nothing to do with Moldova and
should be returned to Ukraine. Also, see the map right below to
convince yourself that this Stalin's "Moldovan ASSR" didn't even
suffer from Golodomor.]
/////////////////////
hmmm... how could they be "NATO-ass-lickers" and a "Stalin-admirers" both
at the same time? they just don't seem to fit together all that well.
/////////////////////
Since you asked about Kazakhstan, here it is:
-----------------------------------------
http://www.rferl.org/content/A_Tragedy_Kazakhstan_Must_Never_Forget/1357455.html.
Radio Free Europe
A Tragedy Kazakhstan Must Never Forget
According to historian Talas Omarbekov of Kazakhstan's State
University, who was granted access to Soviet archives about the famine
in the 1980s, the famine took as many as 2.3 million lives in
Kazakhstan. During a conference devoted to the Ukrainian famine last
month, Russians historians estimated that Kazakhstan had lost 1.5
million people during the famine.
//////////////////////////////
confiscating the nomad's cattle heards and leaving them with nothing....
that sick bastard.
thanks for posting that educational article. i do take exception to one part
though:
"... And unlike Ukraine, no Western journalists were allowed into Kazakhstan
during this period..."
everything else i have read claims that no western journalists were allowed
into ukraine. they had to sneak in if they wanted to be there.
///////////////////////////
As I have written earlier, all of this was due primarily to Comrade
Stalin personally and was opposed not only by Trotsky in exile, but
also by Bukharin, Rykov, Zinoviyev and most other Bolshevik leaders at
that time, all shot in the Purges of 1937. As Kondrashin puts it: "The
main reason was the victory of Stalin's faction inside the Bolshevik
Party".
//////////////////
yep. stalin.
vello
>
It depends where you live. For germans all horror was Hitler's quilt -
and rightly. For neighbours of Germany it was German fault - guys with
guns came from Germany, wear German uniforms and speak german.
There is one activity with no internationally fixed "name" for that
activity: to exterminate a nation without killing too high %% of
people of that nation. Good example is Tibet: you occupy the country,
kill those who resist, bring in colonists by number outnumbering
original population making this way occupation irreversible - and
particular nation is gone forever. It's not a "genocide" in narrow
term, but for history result is the same: there was an nation, but
then it "disappears" to make place free for occupying nation. In
history it describes fate of American original civilizations, Siberian
nations etc etc.
captain!
<ostap.b...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:f72df571-c74d-4c5f...@c36g2000yqn.googlegroups.com...
On May 29, 4:43 pm, "captain!" <whomsoe...@telus.net> wrote:
> the question of genocide will remain an issue for a very long time.
> i'm still amazed at how few people that i talk to know what the holodomor
> is.
>
That's because your Vancouver has little say in the decision among the
Ukrainain citizens as to whether Ukraine should renounce and denounce
its neutrality commitments and join NATO. Currently, about 70% of
Ukrainains oppose. Worse than that, Yuscehnko himself is universally
hated by almost all voters. If this persists, Golodomor will be
whipped up by the Yuschenko government into such a hysteria, that
everything else in the life of Ukraine will be forgotten, especially
Yuschenko's and NATO's unpopularity with the voters.
//////////////////////////////////
i'm not referring to the modern politicisation of the holodomor by ukrainian
nationalists or, evidently, yourself. of course the people of vancouver have
no say in it.
what i am referring to is that few of them have heard of the historical
famine caused by stalin in 32-33 where so many perished. it was a major
event of the 20th century and deserves to be covered in history class.
but since you're bringing up the modern sitaution, you shouldn't be
surprised by some of these feelings in ukraine. when something like this is
suppressed and trivialized, all it does is serve to put off the anger to a
later date. one day it eventually will come, and the sooner it does, the
sooner the next process of healing can begin. it's just human nature.
imagine the devestation in some of those regions. it's like something out of
a nightmare.
vello
>
Golodomor happens just few years before ww2. Do you think analyze of
Nazi activities in Auschwitz, Treblinka etc etc is a "vulgar attempt
to push anti-German mass hysteria?
History is history, sure. But such things became a part of history
when regime commiting those things become history also. For Germany it
happens in 1945. For Russia it is not so easy, coz SU makes also a lot
of crimes in ww2, but their successor state finds it is OK to keep
parts of other countries occupied by Soviets, and - as you - make
attempts to describe Stalin crimes as no crimes at all. "Revising
results of ww2" is considered almost as a crime in Russia. Why? both
we know SU makes a lot of crimes, too.
vello
> On May 29, 4:43 pm, "captain!" <whomsoe...@telus.net> wrote:
>
> > the question of genocide will remain an issue for a very long time.
> > i'm still amazed at how few people that i talk to know what the holodomor
> > is.
>
> That's because your Vancouver has little say in the decision among the
> Ukrainain citizens as to whether Ukraine should renounce and denounce
> its neutrality commitments and join NATO. Currently, about 70% of
> Ukrainains oppose. Worse than that, Yuscehnko himself is universally
> hated by almost all voters. If this persists, Golodomor will be
> whipped up by the Yuschenko government into such a hysteria, that
> everything else in the life of Ukraine will be forgotten, especially
> Yuschenko's and NATO's unpopularity with the voters.
Nil novum sub sole. One big neighbour of Ukraine is still fighting ww2
in TV and other media almost any day. A month before May 9 there were
almost no topics in Russian TV except ww2.
ostap_be...@hotmail.com
First of all, Auschwitz, Treblinka etc were started a decade later
than Golodomor. And yes, if ten years from now, in 2019, the President
of Poland tells the Polish Secret Police to "investigate" and to bring
to justice the men responsible for creating Auschwitz, I will be
inclined to think that he is doing so not so much to punish the
perpeterators but to whip up an anti-German hysteria. Otherwise -
what's the purpose of asking the police to investigate a mass crime
that's 77 years old?
And why involve the Ukrainian police at all? There is no mystery.
Everybody knows and agrees that all the orders, that caused Golodomor,
were issued by Stalin, and were brought into being by his immediate
associates and assistants. If Yuschenko wants to know exactly which
Stalin's henchman was in charge of implementing which Stalin's policy
- that's the job to be done in Moscow, in the Kremlin archives by
historians; but not by secret police detectives in Kiev.
> History is history, sure. But such things became a part of history
> when regime commiting those things become history also. For Germany it
> happens in 1945. For Russia it is not so easy, coz SU makes also a lot
> of crimes in ww2, but their successor state finds it is OK to keep
> parts of other countries occupied by Soviets,
>
Which "parts of other countries occupied by Soviets" do you have in
mind? Konigsberg? Dantzig? Memel? Wilno? Uzhgorod? Yes, Stalin did
keep all those parts. So what?
What does it all have to do with Ukraine and Yuschenko? Are you saying
that Yuschenko cannot ask Moscow to investigate Golodomor archives
because Russia kept Konigsberg, taken from Germany, and Ukraine kept
Uzhgorod, taken fron Hungary?!
>
> and - as you - make
> attempts to describe Stalin crimes as no crimes at all. "Revising
> results of ww2" is considered almost as a crime in Russia. Why? both
> we know SU makes a lot of crimes, too
>
And if the perpetrators of these crimes are still alive, the police
should investigate these these crimes. For example, as i said many
times, I would welcome if the Estonian police investigated the role of
the current Estonian Prime Minister Andrus Ansip in the dispersal of
the pro-independence demonstrations in Tartu in 1988. Was he the one
who gave the order to send the dogs to assault those students? Ansip
is still very much alive, young and kicking, and should answer for his
crimes if any.
Look. I understand that the investigation of Golodomor was impossible
while Ukraine was part of the Soviet Union, until 1992. But from year
1992 to now, Ukraine had 17 years to investigate these crimes. I still
think this should have been done not by the police but by historians -
fine. But Ukraine waited for another 17 years before ordering a full
police investigation. Sorry, but by the time they got to it, the
remaining criminals have died.
I know very well why it took Ukraine so long to ask the police to
investigate Golodomor: because until Yuschenko came to power in 2004,
hatred towards Russia and wanting to join NATO was not a priority with
the Ukrainian government. The previous Presidents - Kravchuk and
Kuchma - sponsored full investigation of Golodomor but assigned the
job to historians, not the police. If the fact, that these Presidents
of Ukraine were not Russophic enough, makes some people here sad or
angry - I can feel their pain. But they should take their
frustrations out on the Ukrainian people who elected them, not on
Russia.
I am all for historians to leave no stone unturned in their
investigations. But waiting for 17 years before asking the **secret
police** in Kiev to investigate crimes committed by Stalin in Moscow
77 years ago - that's still absurd no matter how you look at it. The
police is brought in not for an honest police investigation but for a
well-orchestrated poltical campaign against Moscow.
Where does it end? What if Putin decides tomorrow to ask the FSB to
"impartially investigate" the role of the Latvian Red Riflemen in the
"genocide against the Russian people" 90 years ago? Certainly, this
too couldn't have been done until the fall of the Soviet Union in
1992. Will you believe in the sincerity of such an order? Of course
not. Why? Because you feel that Yuschenko is "on your side" and Putin
is "against your side".
In other words - this is all pure politics and has nothing to do with
honest police investigations of crimes.
[PS: sorry for the typos: I have no time to spellcheck]
ostap_be...@hotmail.com
Oops. A mistake. Actually, Stalin didn't keep Dantzig to himself. He
gave it to Poland, and rightfully so. My bad.
> [PS: sorry for the typos: I have no time to spellcheck]- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
vello
> On May 30, 3:32 am, ostap_bender_1...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > On May 30, 1:10 am, vello <vellok...@hot.ee> wrote:
>
> > And why involve the Ukrainian police at all? There is no mystery.
> > Everybody knows and agrees that all the orders, that caused Golodomor,
> > were issued by Stalin, and were brought into being by his immediate
> > associates and assistants. If Yuschenko wants to know exactly which
> > Stalin's henchman was in charge of implementing which Stalin's policy
> > - that's the job to be done in Moscow, in the Kremlin archives by
> > historians; but not by secret police detectives in Kiev.
>
> > > History is history, sure. But such things became a part of history
> > > when regime commiting those things become history also. For Germany it
> > > happens in 1945. For Russia it is not so easy, coz SU makes also a lot
> > > of crimes in ww2, but their successor state finds it is OK to keep
> > > parts of other countries occupied by Soviets,
>
> > Which "parts of other countries occupied by Soviets" do you have in
> > mind? Konigsberg? Dantzig? Memel? Wilno? Uzhgorod? Yes, Stalin did
> > keep all those parts.
Add parts of Japan, Finland, Latvia, Estonia. OK, Stalin was criminal,
but current regime? No sorry, not to talk about giving looted land
back. THAT's why I can't close pre-war things in SU to history only.
>
> Oops. A mistake. Actually, Stalin didn't keep Dantzig to himself. He
> gave it to Poland, and rightfully so. My bad.
>
Why rightfully? Danzig has never been Polish city (exept 1190-1210 by
polish archaelogists :-)) (with "Polish" I mean city with mostly
polish population).
>
>
> > I am all for historians to leave no stone unturned in their
> > investigations. But waiting for 17 years before asking the **secret
> > police** in Kiev to investigate crimes committed by Stalin in Moscow
> > 77 years ago - that's still absurd no matter how you look at it. The
> > police is brought in not for an honest police investigation but for a
> > well-orchestrated poltical campaign against Moscow.
>
> > Where does it end? What if Putin decides tomorrow to ask the FSB to
> > "impartially investigate" the role of the Latvian Red Riflemen in the
> > "genocide against the Russian people" 90 years ago? Certainly, this
> > too couldn't have been done until the fall of the Soviet Union in
> > 1992. Will you believe in the sincerity of such an order? Of course
> > not. Why? Because
>
> ...
Idea to investigate "Latvian riflemen" is as stupid as to accuse
Georgia in Stalin's crime. Ethnicity is not important, more, looking
for ethnicity behind some crime drives US towards nazism pretty soon.
It is OK to investigate nazi crimes - AND if some of this crimes are
still supported and hailed by modern German govt.
ostap_be...@hotmail.com
>
>> In his speech during the official opening of the monument
>> to the victims of Holodomor, the head of Zaporizhie
>> nationalists Vasyl Tymchina declared: "Our time has come,
>> and soon the Dnieper will be red with
>> the blood of Zhids (Jews) and Moscals (Russians)!"
>
> Russian nation in the article posted by lorad. Only that some
> nationalists do. The SBU and some nationalists are not the same.
>
Maybe SBU and nationalists are not the same. But certainly, Yuschenko
and the neo-nazi nationalists like Vasyl Tymchina above are one and
the same. Yuschenko is the official head of the "Our Ukraine-People's
Self-Defense" political block, which includes Конгресс украинских
националистов - the Congress of Ukrainain Nationalists, and Vasyl
Tymchina is the regional head of this Congress of Ukrainain
Nationalists in Zaporizhie. That's why Yuschenko chose him as one of
the speakers at the opening of the monument to the Golodomor Victims.
Of course, Yuschenko did not expect that Vasyl Tymchina would
verbalise what the rest of the Block wanted to remain unspoken.
-----------------------
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9D%D0%B0%D1%88%D0%B0_%D0%A3%D0%BA%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%B0_%E2%80%94_%D0%9D%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B4%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%8F_%D1%81%D0%B0%D0%BC%D0%BE%D0%BE%D0%B1%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%B0
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9A%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%B3%D1%80%D0%B5%D1%81%D1%81_%D1%83%D0%BA%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B8%D0%BD%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D1%85_%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%86%D0%B8%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0%B8%D1%81%D1%82%D0%BE%D0%B2
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Our_Ukraine%E2%80%93People%27s_Self-Defense_Bloc
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congress_of_Ukrainian_Nationalists
The Congress of Ukrainian Nationalists (Kongres Ukrayinskykh
Natsionalistiv) is a radical right-wing political party in Ukraine.
At the parliamentary elections on 30 March 2002, the party was part of
the Viktor Yushchenko Bloc Our Ukraine. Currently, the party's leader
is Oleksiy Ivchenko, who was the head of Naftogas of Ukraine under the
Yekhanurov government. At the parliamentary elections on 26 March
2006, the party was part of the Our Ukraine alliance.
--------------------------------------------------------------
Enjoy their lovely neo-nazi emblem and an even lovelier red-and-black
neo-nazi flag:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Congress_of_Ukrainian_Nationalists.jpeg
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A4%D0%B0%D0%B9%D0%BB:Flag_of_UPA.svg
http://cun.org.ua/ukr/content/view/1365/68/
These are members of Yuschenko's political block and the rulers of the
Ukrainain oil and gas industry!!!!!!
So, yes, it was a member of Yuschenko's own political block, who
explained the real purpose of the Holodomor political campaign, as
seen by his party:
"Our time has come, and soon the Dnieper will be red with the blood of
Zhids (Jews) and Moscals (Russians)!"
Maybe Yuschenko should tell the Congress of Ukrainian Nationalists
that he, as their ultimate leader, expects them to keep their stupid
mouths shut for the time being.
ch....@hotmail.com
> On May 29, 4:47 pm, "captain!" <whomsoe...@telus.net> wrote:
>
> > > The new accusations prove what everybody knows anyway: that Yuschenko
> > > has been lying about his intentions.
>
> > Nothing contradictory whatsoever between Yushchenko's interview and
> > the article stated. According to the article the studies will link
> > the crimes to Soviets. The SBU statement read: "through murder, the
> > forcible collectivisation of agriculture, dispossession, deportation
> > and confiscation, the Soviet authorities had "aimed at organising
> > hunger to kill the Ukrainian people as an ethnic group" anf "The
> > Stalinist regime wanted to create living conditions that would result
> > in the total physical elimination of ethnic Ukrainians."
>
> > There is no mention of the SBU or Ukrainian government Russia or the
> > Russian nation in the article posted by lorad. Only that some
> > nationalists do. The SBU and some nationalists are not the same.
> > Anyone should welcome an investiagation of the criminal Soviet
> > regime's role in the Famine. The guys in Ukraine who are opposed are
> > probably communist party members.
>
> I would take the members of the modern Ukrainian Communist Party over
> the members of the Ukrainian ex-KGB any day.
Why? Unlike the Russian Communist Party the Ukrainian one remains
largely unreconstructed, a haven of Brezhnevites with some Stalinists
thrown in the mix (the Uke Communists party never even underwent
Gorbyfication in the 1980's).
> My main point, that I will explain below, is that Golodomor was not an
> intentional act of genocide against Ukrainians but a direct
> consequence of Stalin’s social and economic policies all across USSR.
True, however about half the victims were in Ukraine. One million of
the victims outside Ukraine were in Kuban, adjacent to Ukraine and at
least 50% ethnic Ukrainian (don't remember exact figure, and not
enough time to check wikipedia now) according to Soviet censuses of
that period.
So Ukrainians suffered prioportionally more than did other ethnic
groups.
regards,
BM
> -----------------------------------------http://www.rferl.org/content/A_Tragedy_Kazakhstan_Must_Never_Forget/1....
> Party”.- Hide quoted text -
ch....@hotmail.com
>
I assume that the SBU will be looking through archives it has access
to that are found within Ukraine, to document the crimes and
involvement of local Communists inthe Famine. This seems appropriate
to me. Hopwefully they will work together with historians on this
project.
regards,
BM
vello
> On May 29, 3:10 pm, ch....@hotmail.com wrote:
>
>
>
> >>http://www.pro-vincia.com.ua/article-a-196.html
>
> >> In his speech during the official opening of the monument
> >> to the victims of Holodomor, the head of Zaporizhie
> >> nationalists Vasyl Tymchina declared: "Our time has come,
> >> and soon the Dnieper will be red with
> >> the blood of Zhids (Jews) and Moscals (Russians)!"
>
> > There is no mention of the SBU or Ukrainian government Russia or the
> > Russian nation in the article posted by lorad. Only that some
> > nationalists do. The SBU and some nationalists are not the same.
>
> Maybe SBU and nationalists are not the same. But certainly, Yuschenko
> and the neo-nazi nationalists like Vasyl Tymchina above are one and
> the same. Yuschenko is the official head of the "Our Ukraine-People's
> ÎÁÃÉÏÎÁÌÉÓÔÏ× - the Congress of Ukrainain Nationalists, and Vasyl
> Tymchina is the regional head of this Congress of Ukrainain
> Nationalists in Zaporizhie. That's why Yuschenko chose him as one of
> the speakers at the opening of the monument to the Golodomor Victims.
> Of course, Yuschenko did not expect that Vasyl Tymchina would
> verbalise what the rest of the Block wanted to remain unspoken.
There is Zhirinovsky happily in Russian Parliament openly declaring
that he wants to nuke almost any other country on the Earth - it don't
make Russian Parliament a criminal body. Same for Uraina and any other
country.
ostap_be...@hotmail.com
1. Ukraine itself celebrates WW2 Victory Day exactly as much as does
Russia.
2. Neither in Russia nor in Ukraine do these WW2 Victory Day
celebrations contain any hatred towards, say, Germany and Japan; nor
is the FSB ordered to "investigate WW2".
>
> A month before May 9 there were
> almost no topics in Russian TV except ww2.
>
Is this some kind of a weird fantasy of yours, or are you trying to
lie? I receive full weekly schedules for the top 18 (eighteen) Russian
TV networks from the CityCat over the email. I still haven't deleted
the week of 20 April 2009 - 27 April 2009. I skipmmed over the entire
schedule and spotted not a single TV program on the subject of WW2,
out of the total of maybe 5 000 programs. If you don't trust me - I
will be glad to forward a copy to you.
ostap_be...@hotmail.com
First of all, thanks for your restraint.
Second, you and I will see in less than a year what will actually
happen.
Third, this is not like, say, the Armenian or Jewish Holocausts, where
the victims were murdered "locally". We are talking about a
convergence of many Stalin's policies on the national level:
collectivisation, de-kulakization, industrialisation, selling grain to
the West, ordering farmers/peasants to sell the grain to the
government at miniscule price, forcing nomads to give up their cattle,
etc., resulting in famine. Even back in the 1930s, no local individual
had much effect over these national programs.
Fourth, does it feel right to you to put KGB people in charge of
evaluating the KGB archives? Wouldn't it make more sense to put well-
respected civilian historians in charge?
One big thing that was wrong with the USSR can be expressed this way:
in the USSR the historians' job was performed by the Security Service
(KGB), which wrote history books and doled out "historical justice".
Is it wise for the Ukrainians to allow the Security Service to write
history books once again?
ostap_be...@hotmail.com
That is, Russian and Ukrainain Cosssaks, right?
>
>
adjacent to Ukraine and at
> least 50% ethnic Ukrainian (don't remember exact figure, and not
> enough time to check wikipedia now) according to Soviet censuses of
> that period.
>
> So Ukrainians suffered prioportionally more than did other ethnic
> groups.
>
Yes (unless we count Kazakhs). But Ukrainains constituted a huge
percentage of farmers/peasants in the fertile grain-growing regions of
the USSR. It would seem that Stalin's worst victims were Cossaks of
all ethnicites. One can argue that Cossaks were much more anti-
bolshevik than average and were dealt with by Stalin much more harshly
than non-Cossaks, In fact, this would explain why there was relatively
little famine in non-Cossak areas of Ukraine itself.
But that is not the same as a purposeful starvation of people just
because they happen to be of Ukrainain ethnicity, is it?
BTW, a curious coincidence: Kazakhs and Kazaks (Cossaks) are almost
identical words. Did Comrade Stalin choose his main victims
alphabetically? :-) :-(
> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
ostap_be...@hotmail.com
> i'm still amazed at how few people that i talk to know what the holodomor
> is.
>
Tell people, unfamiliar with the Holodomr agenda, to read
alt.politics.europe, soc.culture.ukrainian etc. Portraying Holodomor
as a Jewish (Zhid) genocide against ethnic Ukrainians is the most
important PR issue among the Holocaust deniers and anti-semites, with
titles like:
HOLODOMOR=True Holocaust BY ZYDS/Ivrai
ZHIDS Murder Polish at Vinnitsa!! Like KATYN!!, Also Holodomor!!
HOLODOMOR=The REAL HOLOCAUST BY ZYDS/Ivrai 75 Years Ago !
HOLODOMOR - ZHID Holocaust on Ukrainians!! Never Forget!!
KATYN, VINNITSA, HOLODOMOR = MURDERS BY ZHIDS/NKVD!! Prawda!
HOLODOMOR-Soviet/ZHID HOLOCAUST ON UKRAINIANS!!
HOLODOMOR=ZHID Holocaust on Ukraine 1932-1933!!
Ukraine 75th Anniversary of ZYD/Soviet HOLODOMOR MURDERED 10 Million
Remembering HOLODOMOR=HOLOCAUST-ZYDS Murdered Many Millions in ...
HOLODOMOR=Forgotten HOLOCAUST BY ZYDS On Ukraine
You read soc.culture.russian. I am sure you have been seeing these
posts for years. Or do you block this anti-semite garbage?
ch....@hotmail.com
This map shows the areas hit by the Holodomor:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Holodomor_Famine_map.jpg
The Kiev region was hit as hard as the Kuban. The Donetsk region was
a relative island of fewer deaths. The Russian cossack region of the
Don was somewhat less affected by the famine than was the Kuban which
was about 50% Ukrainian:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainians_in_the_Kuban#Russian_census_figures
> But that is not the same as a purposeful starvation of people just
> because they happen to be of Ukrainain ethnicity, is it?
There is no smoking gun - evidence that Stalin specifically targetted
Ukrainians for their ethnicity. This claim is based on circumstantial
evidence. Ukrainian suffered proportionately more than did other
ethnic groups (with the exception perhaps of Kazakhs - I'm too lazy to
look into the numbers). The Famine also coincided in Ukraine with the
purges of all elements within the local Ukrainian communist party of
those figures who had supported the Ukrainization drives of the
1920's; in addition, cultural figures (writers, playrights, etc.) were
accused of separatism and executed:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mykola_Skrypnyk
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Les_Kurbas
etc.
In the Kuban all of the Ukrainian schools were shut down. These facts
suggest that Stalin may have been solving a social and ethnic problem
simultaneously. But you are right - there is no direct obvious
evidence of this.
regards,
BM
ostap_be...@hotmail.com
Somewhat! And this “somewhat” is the reason for claiming a genocide
that was aimed exclusively at ethnic Ukrainians?!
Let us say, 27% dead in the Ukro-Russian cossak region vs. 23% in the
“purely” Russian cossak region. If it was *not* aimed at Russians, why
were close to a quarter of Russian cossaks starved to death? Why were
the Russians in the Upper Volga starved to death? How about 1.5
million in Kazakhstan?
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainians_in_the_Kuban#Russian_census_f...
>
> > But that is not the same as a purposeful starvation of people just
> > because they happen to be of Ukrainain ethnicity, is it?
>
> There is no smoking gun - evidence that Stalin specifically targetted
> Ukrainians for their ethnicity. This claim is based on circumstantial
> evidence. Ukrainian suffered proportionately more than did other
> ethnic groups (with the exception perhaps of Kazakhs - I'm too lazy to
> look into the numbers).
>
Sure. But in the 1920-21 massive Famine in the Volga region, it was
ethnic Russians who suffered the most. By far! So, should this be
called "genocide against Russian people"?
How about *real* Stalin's genocides: against ethnic Germans, Chechens
and Crimean Tatars? And his plans to do the same to Jews right before
his death?
>
> The Famine also coincided in Ukraine with the
> purges of all elements within the local Ukrainian communist party of
> those figures who had supported the Ukrainization drives of the
> 1920's; in addition, cultural figures (writers, playrights, etc.) were
> accused of separatism and executed:
>
Welcome to the club. In 1937, a disproportional number of Jewish and
Latvian communists were executed. And in the early 1951, it was Jews
of all public professions - doctors, writers, playwrights, actors -
who were murdered or falsely imprisoned.
And in the teens and twenties, a disproportional number of ethnic
Russian elite - gentry and intelligentsia - who were exterminated.
What ethnic group doesn't have a horror story to tell?
But does the fact that overall, only 18% of Russian peasants in the
southern regions were staved to death compared to 22% of Ukrainian
peasants make Moscow guilty of genocide against Ukrainians? Should the
descendants of those dead Russian cossaks be assigned blame for
"genocide"? How about the descendants of those dead Kuban cossaks,
half-Ukrainian and half-Russian? Kuban is still in Russia. Many of
these ethnic Ukrainians now live in Moscow and all over Russia. Should
these victims of the 1932-33 Famine be found guilty?! How
preposterous. Not on your part, of course, because you can see things
fairly clearly. But on the part of Yuschenko.
Isn't this hysteria over Holodomor in many ways insulting to all those
tens of millions of Stalin's victims, whose death is "uncelebrated"
because they were not Ukrainians? Why on Earth would Yuschenko forces
focus only on the Ukrainian part of the Famine and claim that it was a
purposeful act of targeting Ukrainians and only Ukrainians? Why not
include the non-Ukrainian victims of this Famine in this? And why not
include all victims of **all** Stalin's murders and genocides?
I just discovered Yuschenko's own article on Holodomor. I read just
the summary. He specifically makes sure to suppress any information
about suffering outside of Ukraine and Kuban, to the point of true
lies by omission, e.g.:
http://www.president.gov.ua/docs/Holodomor_English_version.pdf
IN THE EARLY 1930s, in the very heart of Europe – in a region
considered to be the Soviet Union’s breadbasket – Stalin’s Communist
regime committed a horrendous act of genocide against millions of
Ukrainians... The government imposed exorbitant grain quotas, in some
cases confiscating supplies down to the last seed. The territory of
Soviet Ukraine and the predominantly Ukrainian-populated Kuban region
of the Northern Caucasus (Soviet Russia) were isolated by armed units,
so that people could not go in search of food to the neighbouring
Soviet regions where it was more readily available.
What about other famined regions like Upper Volga? It was also
isolated. And why does he call Kuban "Ukrainian-populated". Wasn't it
just as Russian-populated as "Ukrainian-populated"? Why does he not
mention the Russians in Kuban? Surely, if this is not a vicious
propaganda ploy, it must be that he doesn't consider ethnic Russians
to be humans worth lamenting.
One can turn anything into a genocide. Take, for example, the British
brutalities against the Boers. I can list the names of Jews who died
in this war, without mentioning any Boers or Blacks exterminated by
the British, and call it a "British genocide against Jews". But if I
did that, I would shoot myself out of shame.
And this abominable creature - Yuschenko - is just picking up steam:
"THE BOLSHEVIK REGIME had already experimented with the weapon of
starvation in 1921-1923, when it took advantage of drought to create
famine conditions in Ukraine to crush resistance to its rule."
Have some fear of god, man! Here are the *real* victims of the
1921-1923 Famine:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_famine_of_1921
Russian famine of 1921
The Russian famine of 1921, better known as Povolzhye famine, which
began in the early spring of that year, and lasted through 1922, was a
severe famine that occurred in Bolshevik Russia. The famine, which
killed an estimated 5 million, affected mostly the Volga-Ural region.
[1][2][3] The Communist government also mounted an attack against a
resistant Russian Orthodox Church. Said Lenin on this issue: "The
greater the number of the reactionary bourgeoisie and the reactionary
clergy that we will manage to execute in this affair, the better."
Is that less of genocide against Russians than the 1933 Famine - a
genocide against Ukrainians?
Claiming that the 1921 famine, which took primarily the lives of
ethnic Russians in the Volga-Urals region (5 million!), was intended
to "resistance to Bolshevik rule in Ukraine " is not simply a lie, it
is a revolting lie. A lie that shows total indifference to any human
suffering, if that suffering doesn't advance his evil plans of making
Ukraine a slave to USA and NATO.
>
> This claim is based on circumstantial evidence.
>
You are absolutely right: the evidence that this Famine was aimed only
at Ukrainians is extremely "circumstantial" (at best): 22% of Ukes vs.
18% of Russians and maybe 25% of Kazakhs. So, why is this campaign
asserting that this was exclusively Uke genocide as if they had a
shred of concrete evidence? Why is Yuschenko himself asserting this
with absolute certainty? He knows better than you and I that the
evidence is "circumstantial". To him, this is just a propaganda
campaign to blame Russia in order to make himself and NATO less
revolting to the voters. The most common and ancient political trick:
if you are losing internally, re-focus the public attention to
external enemies. Do you remember how right after his poisoning, his
team blamed Putin for this poisoning? Then Yuschenko found new
enemies. So he started blaming them. Then new enemies. And new, and
new. He must have pointed his finger at 20 different groups by now.
And every time he accuses somebody else, he doesn't even have the
decency to apologise to the previous "accusees".
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mykola_Skrypnyk
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Les_Kurbas
>
> etc.
>
> In the Kuban all of the Ukrainian schools were shut down. These facts
> suggest that Stalin may have been solving a social and ethnic problem
> simultaneously. But you are right - there is no direct obvious
> evidence of this.
>
So what? This is bad, but not evidence of genocide. Kuban is in
Russia. Closing publicly funded foreign-language schools in order to
force all children to speak the official language of the country is
terrible in my book, but highly common in highly democratic countries.
Here in USA, most states not only forbid foreign-language public
schools but explicitly make it a crime for a teacher to speak Spanish
to his students during class (except for the Spanish-as-a-foreign-
language class, of course). I hear Yuschenko is trying to throw the
Russian language out of public schools. Pushkin is no longer taught in
the original. Russian children in Ukraine are forced to learn it in
translation into Ukrainian. I hear there are such moves in the Baltics
too. Did Stalin close all Ukrainian-language schools in Ukraine? I
think not. Nor was closing of foreign-speaking schools limited to
Ukrainian.
ch....@hotmail.com
> On May 31, 8:12 pm, ch....@hotmail.com wrote:
>
>
> > This map shows the areas hit by the Holodomor:
>
> >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Holodomor_Famine_map.jpg
>
> > The Kiev region was hit as hard as the Kuban. The Donetsk region was
> > a relative island of fewer deaths. The Russian cossack region of the
> > Don was somewhat less affected by the famine than was the Kuban which
> > was about 50% Ukrainian:
>
> Somewhat! And this “somewhat” is the reason for claiming a genocide
> that was aimed exclusively at ethnic Ukrainians?!
Who said that it was exclusively aimed at Ukrainians? The Nazis
targeted Jews, gypsies, Poles, homosexuals, etc. Stalin targeted
Ukrainians, Ukrainian and Russian cossacks, Kazakhs and people on the
Volga (Germans?). The fact that several groups were specifically
killed off doesn't mean that Ukrainians weren't also.
> Let us say, 27% dead in the Ukro-Russian cossak region vs. 23% in the
> “purely” Russian cossak region. If it was *not* aimed at Russians, why
> were close to a quarter of Russian cossaks starved to death? Why were
> the Russians in the Upper Volga starved to death? How about 1.5
> million in Kazakhstan?
None of those atrocities mean that Ukrainians weren't targeted also.
Moreover, as we have seen, while only specific regions in Russia were
affected (one of which was adjacent to Ukraine and 50% Ukrainian),
almost all of Ukraine was affected.
>
> >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainians_in_the_Kuban#Russian_census_f...
>
> > > But that is not the same as a purposeful starvation of people just
> > > because they happen to be of Ukrainain ethnicity, is it?
>
> > There is no smoking gun - evidence that Stalin specifically targetted
> > Ukrainians for their ethnicity. This claim is based on circumstantial
> > evidence. Ukrainian suffered proportionately more than did other
> > ethnic groups (with the exception perhaps of Kazakhs - I'm too lazy to
> > look into the numbers).
>
> Sure. But in the 1920-21 massive Famine in the Volga region, it was
> ethnic Russians who suffered the most. By far! So, should this be
> called "genocide against Russian people"?
No, because it only affected one specific region of Russia rather than
most of Russia. It if were most of Russia then yes. But it was not.
> How about *real* Stalin's genocides: against ethnic Germans, Chechens
> and Crimean Tatars? And his plans to do the same to Jews right before
> his death?
Good that you brought that up. Khrushchev claimed that Stalin wanted
to do to Ukrainians exactly what he did to Chechens, but there were
too many Ukrainians and nowhere to put them all. So now we have
evidence of his intentions.
> > The Famine also coincided in Ukraine with the
> > purges of all elements within the local Ukrainian communist party of
> > those figures who had supported the Ukrainization drives of the
> > 1920's; in addition, cultural figures (writers, playrights, etc.) were
> > accused of separatism and executed:
>
> Welcome to the club. In 1937, a disproportional number of Jewish and
> Latvian communists were executed. And in the early 1951, it was Jews
> of all public professions - doctors, writers, playwrights, actors -
> who were murdered or falsely imprisoned.
Yes. In Ukraine's case, the persecution came earlier, was nearly
total, and coincided with the Famine. Almost all Ukrainian literary,
cultural figures and those involved in eduction were killed at about
the same time as millions of Ukraiians were starved to death.
> And in the teens and twenties, a disproportional number of ethnic
> Russian elite - gentry and intelligentsia - who were exterminated.
> What ethnic group doesn't have a horror story to tell?
Yes.
> But does the fact that overall, only 18% of Russian peasants in the
> southern regions were staved to death compared to 22% of Ukrainian
> peasants make Moscow guilty of genocide against Ukrainians? Should the
> descendants of those dead Russian cossaks be assigned blame for
> "genocide"?
That's the key difference. In Russia it was only in a few specific
regions. It Ukraine it was the opposite - only a few specific regions
(those right next to the Polish border - I suppose the Soviets didn't
want too much attention) avoided the famine.
> How about the descendants of those dead Kuban cossaks,
> half-Ukrainian and half-Russian? Kuban is still in Russia. Many of
> these ethnic Ukrainians now live in Moscow and all over Russia. Should
> these victims of the 1932-33 Famine be found guilty?!
I don't support collectively punishing all of Russia for the famine,
by for example asking the country to pay reparations. Russia was
essentially hijacked by a gang of international criminals and Russians
collectively aren't any more responsible for the Famine than were the
passangers on those 9-11 flights responsible for bringing down the
WTC. Going after the communist party both in Russia and Ukraine,
perhaps even the descendents of the individuals responsible, etc, is
another matter. Should the heirs of Lazar Kaganovich, the architect
of the Famine who died peacefully in Moscow in the late 1980's, be
allowed to keep what he got through his crimes? Dragging Stalin's
name in the dirt and showing the world what a monster he was is also a
good way of dealing with this. Even if it offends some Russians
seeking to rehabilitate him or prsent him in a neutral light because
they associate him with victory over fascism and God forbid the man
associated with that victory was a mass murderer.
> How preposterous. Not on your part, of course, because you can see things
> fairly clearly. But on the part of Yuschenko.
The article didn't indicate that Yushchenko was seeking reparations
from Russia.
> Isn't this hysteria over Holodomor in many ways insulting to all those
> tens of millions of Stalin's victims, whose death is "uncelebrated"
> because they were not Ukrainians?
Should gypsies and Poles feel offended that Jews are the ones most
thought of as holocaust victims? Why?
> Why on Earth would Yuschenko forces
> focus only on the Ukrainian part of the Famine and claim that it was a
> purposeful act of targeting Ukrainians and only Ukrainians?
I don't recall him mentioning "only Ukrainians."
> Why not
> include the non-Ukrainian victims of this Famine in this? And why not
> include all victims of **all** Stalin's murders and genocides?
Why not, indeed. Although as Ukraine's president Yushchenko naturally
would focus on his people's victimhood. Does he deny that of others?
> I just discovered Yuschenko's own article on Holodomor. I read just
> the summary. He specifically makes sure to suppress any information
> about suffering outside of Ukraine and Kuban, to the point of true
> lies by omission, e.g.:
>
> http://www.president.gov.ua/docs/Holodomor_English_version.pdf
> IN THE EARLY 1930s, in the very heart of Europe – in a region
> considered to be the Soviet Union’s breadbasket – Stalin’s Communist
> regime committed a horrendous act of genocide against millions of
> Ukrainians... The government imposed exorbitant grain quotas, in some
> cases confiscating supplies down to the last seed. The territory of
> Soviet Ukraine and the predominantly Ukrainian-populated Kuban region
> of the Northern Caucasus (Soviet Russia) were isolated by armed units,
> so that people could not go in search of food to the neighbouring
> Soviet regions where it was more readily available.
Do you believe that whenever a Jewish writer fails to mention gypsies
or Poles he is "lying by ommission?"
> What about other famined regions like Upper Volga? It was also isolated.
He didn't say "only." As a Ukrainian leader he was discussing
Ukrainian suffering.
> And why does he call Kuban "Ukrainian-populated". Wasn't it
> just as Russian-populated as "Ukrainian-populated"?
It was about evenly divided but Ukrainians had a slight edge:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainians_in_the_Kuban#Russian_census_figures
In the census for 1926 it was noted that there was a total population
in the Kuban region of 3,343,893 of which 1,644.518 (49.2%) stated
that they were Ukrainian, and 1,428,587 (42.7%) stated they were
Russian. Other figures from the same census state that Ukrainian
speakers made up 55% of the population of the area.
> Why does he not
> mention the Russians in Kuban? Surely, if this is not a vicious
> propaganda ploy, it must be that he doesn't consider ethnic Russians
> to be humans worth lamenting.
Or, his article was specifically about Ukrainians.
> One can turn anything into a genocide. Take, for example, the British
> brutalities against the Boers. I can list the names of Jews who died
> in this war, without mentioning any Boers or Blacks exterminated by
> the British, and call it a "British genocide against Jews". But if I
> did that, I would shoot myself out of shame.
I think the Jews/Holocaust analogy is more similar to the Ukrainian
vase with respect to the Famine.
> And this abominable creature - Yuschenko - is just picking up steam:
>
> "THE BOLSHEVIK REGIME had already experimented with the weapon of
> starvation in 1921-1923, when it took advantage of drought to create
> famine conditions in Ukraine to crush resistance to its rule."
>
> Have some fear of god, man! Here are the *real* victims of the
> 1921-1923 Famine:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_famine_of_1921
> Russian famine of 1921
> The Russian famine of 1921, better known as Povolzhye famine, which
> began in the early spring of that year, and lasted through 1922, was a
> severe famine that occurred in Bolshevik Russia. The famine, which
> killed an estimated 5 million, affected mostly the Volga-Ural region.
> [1][2][3] The Communist government also mounted an attack against a
> resistant Russian Orthodox Church. Said Lenin on this issue: "The
> greater the number of the reactionary bourgeoisie and the reactionary
> clergy that we will manage to execute in this affair, the better."
>
> Is that less of genocide against Russians than the 1933 Famine - a
> genocide against Ukrainians?
The 5 million estimate is not so thoroughly researched. It's a bit
like the unrealisticlly high (but often mentioned) figure of 7 million
Ukrainian victims of 1932-1933.
> Claiming that the 1921 famine, which took primarily the lives of
> ethnic Russians in the Volga-Urals region (5 million!), was intended
> to "resistance to Bolshevik rule in Ukraine " is not simply a lie, it
> is a revolting lie.
No, because there was another Famine in Ukraine at that time:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Droughts_and_famines_in_Russia_and_the_Soviet_Union
"The first famine in the USSR happened in 1921-1923 and garnered wide
international attention. It was mostly due to forceful confiscation of
grain and other policies of the Soviet government [2]. The most
affected area being the Southeastern areas of European Russia
(including Volga area, or Povolzhye, especially national republics of
Idel-Ural, see 1921-1922 Famine in Tatarstan) and Ukraine."
I don't know why nobody wrote an article about the 1921 famine in
Ukraine for wikipedia; I suppose they were too focused on 1932-1933.
Here's an article by Dr. Roman Serbyn, professor of Russian and East
European history at the University of Quebec in Montreal:
http://www.ukrweekly.com/old/archive/1988/458814.shtml
The famine was concentrated in the rich grain-growing provinces of
southern Ukraine, an area inhabited by about a third of the republic's
26 million citizens. It affected both the rural and the urban
population. Most of the victims were Ukrainians; national minorities
like Germans, Jews and Russians also suffered. Between the fall of
1921 and the spring of 1923, 1.5 million to 2 million people died of
starvation and due to accompanying epidemics...
The reaction of the Soviet authorities to the famine in Russia stood
in marked contrast to their inaction in response to the Ukrainian
tragedy. In the RSFSR, the famine had broken out somewhat earlier than
in Ukraine and eventually affected about three times as many people;
the final toll was about twice as heavy. After a brief attempt to hide
this catastrophe, which the Bolsheviks feared would be interpreted as
a failure of their rule, Moscow launched an elaborate famine relief
campaign. In July 1921, the famine regions in Russia were declared a
disaster zone and were exempted from food taxation. Food and money
collection was organized for them in the Soviet republics, and help
was sought also from the West. The Volga famine zone included many
nationalities, but aid seems to have been concentrated in the
ethnically Russian areas. During the second year of the famine,
Western agencies noticed that the majority of the starving population
consisted of national minorities (Tatars, Germans, etc.)
Throughout the whole period, the starving areas of Ukraine continued
to be taxed, and forced to provide 'voluntary" aid for Russia. This
amounted to criminal behavior on the part of the Bolshevik authorities
and astounded foreign observers.
"Up to the time the ARA began its activities (January 1922)," wrote H.
H. Fisher, a former ARA worker, "neither the central government at
Moscow nor the Ukrainian at Kharkiv had made any serious move to
relieve the famine in the south [i.e., Ukraine]. In fact, the only
relief activity which went on in Ukraine, from the summer of 1921 to
the spring of 1922, was the collection, for shipment to the distant
Volga, of foodstuffs, for lack of which people along the Black Sea
were dying."
"...not before the 11th of January of this year," wrote Quisling in
the March 1922 report quoted above, "could the gubernia of Donets stop
their obligatory relief work for the Volga district and begin to take
care with all their forces of their own famine problem, at a time when
already more than every 10th person in the Donets was without bread.
In the beginning on March of this year, you could still see, in the
famine stricken gubernia of Mykolayiv, placards with: 'Working masses
of Mykolayiv, to the rescue of the starving Volga district!' The
gubernia of Mykolayiv itself had at the same time 700,000 starving
people, about half the population."
It was only in the beginning of 1922 that the Kharkiv government made
a half-hearted effort to organize famine relief for the starving
Ukrainian population. Meager financial aid was allocated to the
Sovietized Ukrainian Red Cross and the recently formed Pomhol (Famine
Relief Committee). These organizations could not help even 10 percent
of the starving Ukrainian population, as their main duty continued to
be famine relief for Russia. Starving Ukrainians had to look for help
elsewhere than to "their own" government. This aid eventually came
from the West
> A lie that shows total indifference to any human
> suffering, if that suffering doesn't advance his evil plans of making
> Ukraine a slave to USA and NATO.
No lies, although you were mistaken.
> > This claim is based on circumstantial evidence.
>
> You are absolutely right: the evidence that this Famine was aimed only
> at Ukrainians is extremely "circumstantial" (at best): 22% of Ukes vs.
> 18% of Russians and maybe 25% of Kazakhs. So, why is this campaign
> asserting that this was exclusively Uke genocide as if they had a
> shred of concrete evidence? Why is Yuschenko himself asserting this
> with absolute certainty? He knows better than you and I that the
> evidence is "circumstantial".
Again, the 18% Russians were only in isolated regions while krainian
deaths were in most of the country. and Yushchenko doesn't seem to be
denying that others were victims of genocide too. He was merely
asserting that Ukrainians were.
> To him, this is just a propaganda
> campaign to blame Russia in order to make himself and NATO less
> revolting to the voters. The most common and ancient political trick:
> if you are losing internally, re-focus the public attention to
> external enemies.
Sure? Putin does it too, so what?
I'm not complaining about Russification of schools in Russia. I'm
just poiting out how this coincided with the extermination of the
Ukrainian people.
regards,
BM
Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
Well one could steer people to some of your copious publication
on certain topics and claim that by the volume they demonstrate
the prevalence of a certain point of view in the general public.
lorad
> has been lying about his intentions.
>
> years:
Settle down, comrade.
Ukraine is not charging "russia" of the genocide.. it is charging "the
soviet union" (and stalin's accomplices) with genocide.
As you well know, ethnic russians were not the only chekists.
captain!
don't forget to include crimean tatars on your list of persecuted peoples.
captain!
<ostap_be...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:747b8aa6-f943-4ed9...@z9g2000yqi.googlegroups.com...
//////////////////
i block it. the stupidity of it and the people who promote it went from
funny, to stupid, to annoying in no time at all.
since the time that i first began reading these groups the amount of
information available in english online regarding the holodomor has
increased substantially. i thank guys like BM, rusty, and others now gone
for helping me to learn of it. i have passed it on to others and hopefully
they will in turn to others.
ostap_be...@hotmail.com
> good debate guys.
>
> don't forget to include crimean tatars on your list of persecuted peoples.
>
Didn't I? Let me repeat the list of victims of Stalin's genocides as I
know it: Germans, Chechens, Ingushes, Crimean Tatars, and maybe some
other small Muslim groups in the Caucuses (as there are seemingly
hundreds of different ethnicities there).
Jews, who were next on Stalin's list, barely avoided the planned
genocide in the early 50s, thanks to Stalin's timely death; but my
father had been thrown out of his PhD program along with every other
Jew in his University (Moscow Polytechnic); and my mother, who had
just graduated from her Moscow Linguistics University, couldn't find a
job in her profession for 3 years, until Stalin died and fairly sane
people finally came to power.
ch....@hotmail.com
> On Jun 6, 3:43 am, "captain!" <whomsoe...@telus.net> wrote:
>
> > good debate guys.
>
> > don't forget to include crimean tatars on your list of persecuted peoples.
>
> Didn't I? Let me repeat the list of victims of Stalin's genocides as I
> know it: Germans, Chechens, Ingushes, Crimean Tatars, and maybe some
> other small Muslim groups in the Caucuses (as there are seemingly
> hundreds of different ethnicities there).
Your forgot Cossacks (to the extent that they are a subethnos of the
Russian and/or Ukrainian people) and of course the biggest victims in
sheer numbers, the Ukrainians.
> Jews, who were next on Stalin's list, barely avoided the planned
> genocide in the early 50s, thanks to Stalin's timely death; but my
> father had been thrown out of his PhD program along with every other
> Jew in his University (Moscow Polytechnic); and my mother, who had
> just graduated from her Moscow Linguistics University, couldn't find a
> job in her profession for 3 years, until Stalin died and fairly sane
> people finally came to power.
That's chilling.
regards,
BM
ostap_be...@hotmail.com
> On Jun 6, 8:15 am, ostap_bender_1...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> > On Jun 6, 3:43 am, "captain!" <whomsoe...@telus.net> wrote:
>
> > > good debate guys.
>
> > > don't forget to include crimean tatars on your list of persecuted peoples.
>
> > Didn't I? Let me repeat the list of victims of Stalin's genocides as I
> > know it: Germans, Chechens, Ingushes, Crimean Tatars, and maybe some
> > other small Muslim groups in the Caucuses (as there are seemingly
> > hundreds of different ethnicities there).
>
> Your forgot Cossacks (to the extent that they are a subethnos of the
> Russian and/or Ukrainian people)
>
To me, Russian Cossaks are Russians, and Ukrainian Cossaks are
Ukrainians. In fact, Russian Cossaks (Kuban, Don) view themselves as
Russians are the biggest Russian patriots and even nationalists; while
Ukrainian Cossaks (Zaporozhie, etc) view themselves as Ukrainians and
are the biggest Ukrainian patriots and even nationalists. And their
appearance is quite East Slavic, they look just like Russians and
Ukrainians, only with mustaches. :-)
>
> and of course the biggest victims in sheer numbers, the Ukrainians.
>
Afaik, in sheer numbers, the biggest victims of Bolshevik repressions
from 1921 (end of civil war) to 1953 (Stalin's death which brought
the end of mass killings) were the Russians.
But per capita, afaik, Germans, Chechens, Ingushes, Crimean Tatars
(all of whom were deported to Siberia and Kazakhstan) suffered more
than Ukrainians or Russians.
>
> > Jews, who were next on Stalin's list, barely avoided the planned
> > genocide in the early 50s, thanks to Stalin's timely death;
>
Here is a seemingly good reference (in Russian):
http://www.eleven.co.il/article/15418
>
> but my
> > father had been thrown out of his PhD program along with every other
> > Jew in his University (Moscow Polytechnic); and my mother, who had
> > just graduated from her Moscow Linguistics University, couldn't find a
> > job in her profession for 3 years, until Stalin died and fairly sane
> > people finally came to power.
>
> That's chilling.
>
What? My parents' professional discrimination? Yes, but at least they
didn't suffer physically, like Germans, Chechens, Ingushes, Crimean
Tatars and the victims of various Famines. My father even eventually
got his PhD (by making an important invention at work), but much
later.
ch....@hotmail.com
> On Jun 7, 4:50 pm, ch....@hotmail.com wrote:
>
>> > > Didn't I? Let me repeat the list of victims of Stalin's genocides as I
> > > know it: Germans, Chechens, Ingushes, Crimean Tatars, and maybe some
> > > other small Muslim groups in the Caucuses (as there are seemingly
> > > hundreds of different ethnicities there).
>
> > Your forgot Cossacks (to the extent that they are a subethnos of the
> > Russian and/or Ukrainian people)
>
> To me, Russian Cossaks are Russians, and Ukrainian Cossaks are
> Ukrainians. In fact, Russian Cossaks (Kuban, Don) view themselves as
> Russians are the biggest Russian patriots and even nationalists; while
> Ukrainian Cossaks (Zaporozhie, etc) view themselves as Ukrainians and
> are the biggest Ukrainian patriots and even nationalists. And their
> appearance is quite East Slavic, they look just like Russians and
> Ukrainians, only with mustaches. :-)
They were listed seperately on the Russian census as a subethnos, such
as Pomors. Perhaps they are analogous to Latgalians vs. Latvians.
This would make the murder of Russian cossacks a genocide.
>
> > and of course the biggest victims in sheer numbers, the Ukrainians.
>
> Afaik, in sheer numbers, the biggest victims of Bolshevik repressions
> from 1921 (end of civil war) to 1953 (Stalin's death which brought
> the end of mass killings) were the Russians.
I meant, in 1932-1933. Sorry for not being clear.
> But per capita, afaik, Germans, Chechens, Ingushes, Crimean Tatars
> (all of whom were deported to Siberia and Kazakhstan) suffered more
> than Ukrainians or Russians.
Yes.
> > > Jews, who were next on Stalin's list, barely avoided the planned
> > > genocide in the early 50s, thanks to Stalin's timely death;
>
> Here is a seemingly good reference (in Russian):
>
> http://www.eleven.co.il/article/15418
>
>
>
> > but my
> > > father had been thrown out of his PhD program along with every other
> > > Jew in his University (Moscow Polytechnic); and my mother, who had
> > > just graduated from her Moscow Linguistics University, couldn't find a
> > > job in her profession for 3 years, until Stalin died and fairly sane
> > > people finally came to power.
>
> > That's chilling.
>
> What? My parents' professional discrimination? Yes, but at least they
> didn't suffer physically, like Germans, Chechens, Ingushes, Crimean
> Tatars and the victims of various Famines. My father even eventually
> got his PhD (by making an important invention at work), but much
> later.- Hide quoted text -
I meant that it was a prelude to something much worse. What was
happening to your parents was eerily similar to what was happening to
the Jews in 1930's Germany, several years before the Holocaust.
regards,
BM
ostap_be...@hotmail.com
> On Jun 8, 12:42 am, ostap_bender_1...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jun 7, 4:50 pm, ch....@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> >> > > Didn't I? Let me repeat the list of victims of Stalin's genocides as I
> > > > know it: Germans, Chechens, Ingushes, Crimean Tatars, and maybe some
> > > > other small Muslim groups in the Caucuses (as there are seemingly
> > > > hundreds of different ethnicities there).
>
> > > Your forgot Cossacks (to the extent that they are a subethnos of the
> > > Russian and/or Ukrainian people)
>
> > To me, Russian Cossaks are Russians, and Ukrainian Cossaks are
> > Ukrainians. In fact, Russian Cossaks (Kuban, Don) view themselves as
> > Russians are the biggest Russian patriots and even nationalists; while
> > Ukrainian Cossaks (Zaporozhie, etc) view themselves as Ukrainians and
> > are the biggest Ukrainian patriots and even nationalists. And their
> > appearance is quite East Slavic, they look just like Russians and
> > Ukrainians, only with mustaches. :-)
>
> They were listed seperately on the Russian census as a subethnos, such
> as Pomors. Perhaps they are analogous to Latgalians vs. Latvians.
> This would make the murder of Russian cossacks a genocide.
>
>
>
> > > and of course the biggest victims in sheer numbers, the Ukrainians.
>
> > Afaik, in sheer numbers, the biggest victims of Bolshevik repressions
> > from 1921 (end of civil war) to 1953 (Stalin's death which brought
> > the end of mass killings) were the Russians.
>
> I meant, in 1932-1933. Sorry for not being clear.
>
OK. But we were talking about the genocides against Germans, Chechens,
Ingushes, Crimean Tatars etc, which didn't happen in 1932-33 either.
I am sure that Ukraine suffered tremendously and disproportionately as
the main battleground of the Civil War and of World War II. /I also
suspect that you are right in saying that Ukrainians suffered
disproportionately from Stalin because they were among the most
rebellious anti-Bolshevik groups. /
But war deaths and purposeful genocide are not the same thing, even
though the former created more innocent civilian victims.
>
> > But per capita, afaik, Germans, Chechens, Ingushes, Crimean Tatars
> > (all of whom were deported to Siberia and Kazakhstan) suffered more
> > than Ukrainians or Russians.
>
> Yes.
>
> > > > Jews, who were next on Stalin's list, barely avoided the planned
> > > > genocide in the early 50s, thanks to Stalin's timely death;
>
> > Here is a seemingly good reference (in Russian):
>
> >http://www.eleven.co.il/article/15418
>
> > > but my
> > > > father had been thrown out of his PhD program along with every other
> > > > Jew in his University (Moscow Polytechnic); and my mother, who had
> > > > just graduated from her Moscow Linguistics University, couldn't find a
> > > > job in her profession for 3 years, until Stalin died and fairly sane
> > > > people finally came to power.
>
> > > That's chilling.
>
> > What? My parents' professional discrimination? Yes, but at least they
> > didn't suffer physically, like Germans, Chechens, Ingushes, Crimean
> > Tatars and the victims of various Famines. My father even eventually
> > got his PhD (by making an important invention at work), but much
> > later.
>
> I meant that it was a prelude to something much worse. What was
> happening to your parents was eerily similar to what was happening to
> the Jews in 1930's Germany, several years before the Holocaust.
>
In many ways. But Hitler was much more blunt and open about his plans
than Stalin, who maintained to say that "all ethnicities are equal".
Of course, some were less equal than others. :-)
ostap_be...@hotmail.com
> to that are found within Ukraine, to document the crimes and
> involvement of local Communists inthe Famine.
>
They have already done so. And, as expected, the list of people whom
SBU has accused of the genocide against Ukrainian people, consists
primarily of Jews and Latvians:
In fact the SBU was so enthusiastic in blaming comissars of Jewish
ethniciy for Holodomor that their list includes Israel Gishman, who
was one of Stalin's comissars in Crimea. As you recall, until 1954
Crimea was part of Russia and in 1932-33 Ukrainians were a very small
minority in Crimea.
How did Gishman target ethnic Ukrainians? Did he go around and steal
food from the homes of ethnic Ukrainians while leaving ethnic Russians
and Tatars and other non-Ukrainians with plenty of food?
ostap_be...@hotmail.com
It gets worse. The Ukrainian Jewish Committee also points out that:
1. For those Jews who had changed their name to a Russian-sounding
one, the SBU purposefully lists their Jewish names given at birht.
2. Among the Jews, accused of Holodomor, there are several people who
worked as statisticians and thus are highly unlikely to habe caused
mass starvation of anybody.
3. SBU didn't publish the names of *real* perpetrators of Holodomor,
who happen to be ethnic Ukrainains: G. Petrovski, the Chariman of the
Supreme Soviet of Ukrainian SSR; V. Chubar, the Chairman of the
Comissar Cmmiteee (I.e., Prime Minister) of the Ukrainian SSR; V.
Prikhodko, the Genral Prosecutor of the Ukrainian SSR; comrade N.
Srypnik and many others.
http://news.nswap.info/?p=10782
But as Comrade Stalin's experience shows, all means are good when it
comes to fanning antisemitic and anti-Latvian hysteria.
ch....@hotmail.com
> On Jun 10, 1:32 am, ostap_bender_1...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On May 30, 6:48 am, ch....@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> > > I assume that the SBU will be looking through archives it has access
> > > to that are found within Ukraine, to document the crimes and
> > > involvement of local Communists inthe Famine.
>
> > They have already done so. And, as expected, the list of people whom
> > SBU has accused of the genocide against Ukrainian people, consists
> > primarily of Jews and Latvians:
>
> >http://h.ua/story/115841/
>
> > In fact the SBU was so enthusiastic in blaming comissars of Jewish
> > ethniciy for Holodomor that their list includes Israel Gishman, who
> > was one of Stalin's comissars in Crimea. As you recall, until 1954
> > Crimea was part of Russia and in 1932-33 Ukrainians were a very small
> > minority in Crimea.
>
> > How did Gishman target ethnic Ukrainians? Did he go around and steal
> > food from the homes of ethnic Ukrainians while leaving ethnic Russians
> > and Tatars and other non-Ukrainians with plenty of food?
>
> It gets worse. The Ukrainian Jewish Committee also points out that:
>
> 1. For those Jews who had changed their name to a Russian-sounding
> one, the SBU purposefully lists their Jewish names given at birht.
So?
> 2. Among the Jews, accused of Holodomor, there are several people who
> worked as statisticians and thus are highly unlikely to habe caused
> mass starvation of anybody.
Well, if quotas were determined based on their statistics than they
are also culpable. Why not?
> 3. SBU didn't publish the names of *real* perpetrators of Holodomor,
> who happen to be ethnic Ukrainains: G. Petrovski, the Chariman of the
> Supreme Soviet of Ukrainian SSR; V. Chubar, the Chairman of the
> Comissar Cmmiteee (I.e., Prime Minister) of the Ukrainian SSR; V.
> Prikhodko, the Genral Prosecutor of the Ukrainian SSR; comrade N.
> Srypnik and many others.
>
> http://news.nswap.info/?p=10782
Don't know about the others, but Skrypnyk can hardly be blamed for the
Holodomor. Indeed he committed suicide rather than follow Moscow's
anti-Ukrainian policies:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mykola_Skrypnyk
regards,
BM
>
> But as Comrade Stalin's experience shows, all means are good when it
> comes to fanning antisemitic and anti-Latvian hysteria.- Hide quoted text -
ch....@hotmail.com
Does it surprise you that Jews and Latvians were overrepresented in
the Communist party in the early 1930's? Do you know who Lazar
Kaganovich was?
regards,
BM
Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
> On May 30, 6:48 am, ch....@hotmail.com wrote:
>> I assume that the SBU will be looking through archives it has access
>> to that are found within Ukraine, to document the crimes and
>> involvement of local Communists inthe Famine.
>>
>
> They have already done so. And, as expected, the list of people whom
> SBU has accused of the genocide against Ukrainian people, consists
> primarily of Jews and Latvians:
>
> http://h.ua/story/115841/
>
> In fact the SBU was so enthusiastic in blaming comissars of Jewish
> ethniciy for Holodomor that their list includes Israel Gishman, who
> was one of Stalin's comissars in Crimea. As you recall, until 1954
> Crimea was part of Russia and in 1932-33 Ukrainians were a very small
> minority in Crimea.
So where in the list of names in that article do you see an "Israel
Gishman"? Would that be "Ивановський (Гибшман) Израиль Давидович"?
Anyway the article says that the SBU report provides evidence of
the genocide related documents signed by these individuals.
Also, even if this Gishman was posted in Krym, Does it matter?
Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
> On Jun 10, 1:32 am, ostap_bender_1...@hotmail.com wrote:
>> On May 30, 6:48 am, ch....@hotmail.com wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> I assume that the SBU will be looking through archives it has access
>>> to that are found within Ukraine, to document the crimes and
>>> involvement of local Communists inthe Famine.
>> They have already done so. And, as expected, the list of people whom
>> SBU has accused of the genocide against Ukrainian people, consists
>> primarily of Jews and Latvians:
>>
>> http://h.ua/story/115841/
>>
>> In fact the SBU was so enthusiastic in blaming comissars of Jewish
>> ethniciy for Holodomor that their list includes Israel Gishman, who
>> was one of Stalin's comissars in Crimea. As you recall, until 1954
>> Crimea was part of Russia and in 1932-33 Ukrainians were a very small
>> minority in Crimea.
>>
>> How did Gishman target ethnic Ukrainians? Did he go around and steal
>> food from the homes of ethnic Ukrainians while leaving ethnic Russians
>> and Tatars and other non-Ukrainians with plenty of food?
>>
>
> It gets worse. The Ukrainian Jewish Committee also points out that:
>
> 1. For those Jews who had changed their name to a Russian-sounding
> one, the SBU purposefully lists their Jewish names given at birht.
>
real name were to be found and revealed. :)
Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr.
Hi BM. Since discussions about Ukraine between you and me grow
exponentially in size with each of our responses, let us not go in
depth here. I would prefer to stay "on the surface"/"superficial" at
this point in time.
I just reported what the Ukrainian Jewish Agency said about the SBU
investigation of Holodomor. The future will soon show us if their
fears are founded or not. Or alternatively, Tymoshenko will be elected
President before Yuschenko manages to get his Holodomor campain to the
intended destination, and she will let it gradually die down,
especially since with every new day Yuschenko's approval ratings are
falling lower and lower and are now in single digit, according to
several Uke sites that I saw last week. They say that the the
Holodomor controversy is not helping him at all, just as his
"heroifivation" of Nachtigall didn't go over too well in the country
where the majority considers the memory of the Patriotic War of
1941-45 to be sacred. The more he tries to drive various wedges among
the people - the more votes Tymoshenko will get. When are the next
Presidential elections?
Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr.
wrote:
> ostap_bender_1...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > On May 30, 6:48 am, ch....@hotmail.com wrote:
> >> I assume that the SBU will be looking through archives it has access
> >> to that are found within Ukraine, to document the crimes and
> >> involvement of local Communists inthe Famine.
>
> > They have already done so. And, as expected, the list of people whom
> > SBU has accused of the genocide against Ukrainian people, consists
> > primarily of Jews and Latvians:
>
> >http://h.ua/story/115841/
>
> > In fact the SBU was so enthusiastic in blaming comissars of Jewish
> > ethniciy for Holodomor that their list includes Israel Gishman, who
> > was one of Stalin's comissars in Crimea. As you recall, until 1954
> > Crimea was part of Russia and in 1932-33 Ukrainians were a very small
> > minority in Crimea.
>
> So where in the list of names in that article do you see an "Israel
> Gishman"? Would that be "Ивановський (Гибшман) Израиль Давидович"?
>
How did you guess? :-)
>
> Anyway the article says that the SBU report provides evidence of
> the genocide related documents signed by these individuals.
>
Where can I see this report?
And why were the Chairman of the Supreme Soviet of the Ukrainian SSR,
the Chariman of the Comissar Committee (i.e., Prime Minister) of the
Ukrainian SSR, and the Head Prosecutor of of the Ukrainian SSR not
implicated? As the men in charge of implementing Stalin's policies in
Ukraine in 1932-33, how could they not direct the actions and issue
orders that resulted in the Famine? It is like saying that Hess and
Goering were not responsible for Hitler's crimes.
Where can I see reports that show that these 3 leaders of the
Ukrainian SSR refused to execute Stalin's genocidal orders? And why
were they not immediately removed from office, tortured and then shot
by Stalin and his NKVD for refusing his orders?
>
> Also, even if this Gishman was posted in Krym, Does it matter?
>
If Yuschenko and SBU acknowledge that the Famine of 1932-33 took the
lives of about 7 million people in Crimea, Kazakhstan, Volga, Rostov/
Stavropol, Siberia and other regions of the-then Russian SFSR
populated primarily by non-Ukrainians, and it was not intended to kill
exclusively Ukrainians - then no, it doesn't matter. But are they
willing to?
Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
> On Jun 10, 10:40 am, "Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj" <urj...@bellsouth.net>
> wrote:
>> ostap_bender_1...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>> On May 30, 6:48 am, ch....@hotmail.com wrote:
>>>> I assume that the SBU will be looking through archives it has access
>>>> to that are found within Ukraine, to document the crimes and
>>>> involvement of local Communists inthe Famine.
>>> They have already done so. And, as expected, the list of people whom
>>> SBU has accused of the genocide against Ukrainian people, consists
>>> primarily of Jews and Latvians:
>>> http://h.ua/story/115841/
>>> In fact the SBU was so enthusiastic in blaming comissars of Jewish
>>> ethniciy for Holodomor that their list includes Israel Gishman, who
>>> was one of Stalin's comissars in Crimea. As you recall, until 1954
>>> Crimea was part of Russia and in 1932-33 Ukrainians were a very small
>>> minority in Crimea.
>> So where in the list of names in that article do you see an "Israel
>> Gishman"? Would that be "Ивановський (Гибшман) Израиль Давидович"?
>>
>
> How did you guess? :-)
>
>> Anyway the article says that the SBU report provides evidence of
>> the genocide related documents signed by these individuals.
>>
>
> Where can I see this report?
Are you intending to imply:
The report does not exist?
It has not been presented to the government?
That newspaper report is misstating that the collected evidence
includes documents signed by these worthies, showing their guilt?
Remeber this was a report of documents found in the SBU (KGB)
archives, and not about other evidence.
>
> And why were the Chairman of the Supreme Soviet of the Ukrainian SSR,
> the Chariman of the Comissar Committee (i.e., Prime Minister) of the
> Ukrainian SSR, and the Head Prosecutor of of the Ukrainian SSR not
> implicated? As the men in charge of implementing Stalin's policies in
> Ukraine in 1932-33, how could they not direct the actions and issue
> orders that resulted in the Famine? It is like saying that Hess and
> Goering were not responsible for Hitler's crimes.
>
Remeber this was a report of documents found in the SBU (KGB)
archives, and not about other evidence.
> Where can I see reports that show that these 3 leaders of the
> Ukrainian SSR refused to execute Stalin's genocidal orders? And why
> were they not immediately removed from office, tortured and then shot
> by Stalin and his NKVD for refusing his orders?
>
Do such reports exist?
>> Also, even if this Gishman was posted in Krym, Does it matter?
>>
>
> If Yuschenko and SBU acknowledge that the Famine of 1932-33 took the
> lives of about 7 million people in Crimea, Kazakhstan, Volga, Rostov/
> Stavropol, Siberia and other regions of the-then Russian SFSR
> populated primarily by non-Ukrainians, and it was not intended to kill
> exclusively Ukrainians - then no, it doesn't matter. But are they
> willing to?
That is supposedly an estimate of Ukrainians killed. Not of all the
victims of that era. It is similar to the 6 million estimate of Jews
killed in the Holocaust. Does that figure count all the Nazi victims?
of only the Jews?
Where the killings occurred shouldn't matter, except to you.
Also, if signed document, implicating Gishmans' guilt are there,
Does it matter if he was in Krym at some point in time?
Anyway I could not find any reference that he was posted in Krym
at that time.
--
Rostyk
Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr.
How would I know?
>
> It has not been presented to the government?
>
How would I know?
>
> That newspaper report is misstating that the collected evidence
> includes documents signed by these worthies, showing their guilt?
>
How would I know if it's misstating or not? I haven't seen these
reports nor the documents that they are based on. Where can we see
them? Or are they secret?
But as a general rule, I would not accuse any person of a crime based
on nothing more than an unsubstantiated newsppaper reports.
>
> Remeber this was a report of documents found in the SBU (KGB)
> archives, and not about other evidence.
>
Where can I see these documents or at least read transcripts of these
documents? How hard is it to post photocopies or transcripts on some
government site?
>
> > And why were the Chairman of the Supreme Soviet of the Ukrainian SSR,
> > the Chariman of the Comissar Committee (i.e., Prime Minister) of the
> > Ukrainian SSR, and the Head Prosecutor of of the Ukrainian SSR not
> > implicated? As the men in charge of implementing Stalin's policies in
> > Ukraine in 1932-33, how could they not direct the actions and issue
> > orders that resulted in the Famine? It is like saying that Hess and
> > Goering were not responsible for Hitler's crimes.
>
> Remeber this was a report of documents found in the SBU (KGB)
> archives, and not about other evidence.
>
Where can I see these documents or at least read transcripts of these
documents? How hard is it to post photocopies or transcripts on some
government site?
We are discussing the guilt and innocence of particular people. And
Ukraine is no longer a communist dictatorship where the public opinion
convicts the accused without seeing any evidence. For the public to
judge the validity of the SBU accusations, they must see the
evidence.
If tomorrow Russian FSB claims that it has documents that irrefutably
prove Tymoshenko's guilt in various racketeering schemes, will you
take them at their word or will you want to see the actual evidence
first?
In fact, in the past, both the Russian and Ukrainian security forces
and prosecutors indicted Tymoshenko and her husband on numerous
occasions, but she claimed that these accusations were politically
motivated falsifications, and courts indeed found her not guilty of
any charges. So, if the charges against Tymoshenko were false, then
why can't the latest Holodomor charges be also politically motivated?
Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr.
Hi, BM, I finally found some partial documentation concerning
agriculture, collectivisation and Holodomor in Ukraine and not only.
There is a lot of stuff but it's worth reading. At a first glance, it
seems that Kaganovich, Chubar and Kosior wanted to mitigate Stalin's
orders. But there doesn't seem any intention to starve poor people to
death even on the part of Stalin himslef. Only the "kulaks" (well-off
farmers), due to the usual Bolshevik class hatred, but not ethnic
hatred:
http://www.archives.gov.ua/Sections/Famine/Publicat/Fam-Stalin-Kaganov.php
Do you have time to look over them?
There seems to be real concern to avoid starvation. Look at the letter
Nr No.268. In it Stalin orders to ease things up for Ukraine but not for
for the Russian SFSR areas: Volga, Siberia, Kazakhstan, Bashkiria.
Quite contrary to the Holodomor claims, not?
The more I read the more I start to believe that the Politburo and
even Stalin didn't intentionally want millions of poor peasants to
die. The Famine and deaths were the result of:
- the inability of a planned economy to manage crises, and the
incompetence and ignorance of leadership
- Stalin's insane idea of selling most grain abroad in order to fund
his forced industrialisation
- the insanity and brutality of the very idea of class hatred,
collectivisation and "de-kulakization"
But not an intentional starvation for the purpose of genocide! If
somebody came to the Politburo and gave them the food to feed all
starving Ukrainian peasants, and actually provided transportation and
distribution of this food - the Politburo would have gladly allowed
the dispensation of this food.
Here are photocopies of numerous Politburo documents ordering the
distribution of food to the effected areas, taken from the Politburo
archives:
http://forum.fraza.ua/read.php?1,255843,page=1
The Black Monk
<ostap_bender_1...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Jun 10, 8:04 am, ch....@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> > On Jun 10, 4:32 am, ostap_bender_1...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> > Does it surprise you that Jews and Latvians were overrepresented in
> > the Communist party in the early 1930's? Do you know who Lazar
> > Kaganovich was?
>
> Hi, BM, I finally found some partial documentation concerning
> agriculture, collectivisation and Holodomor in Ukraine and not only.
> There is a lot of stuff but it's worth reading. At a first glance, it
> seems that Kaganovich, Chubar and Kosior wanted to mitigate Stalin's
> orders. But there doesn't seem any intention to starve poor people to
> death even on the part of Stalin himslef. Only the "kulaks" (well-off
> farmers), due to the usual Bolshevik class hatred, but not ethnic
> hatred:
Since kulaks were much more common as a class in Ukraine and in
Ukraine-inhabited parts of Russia (Kuban) Ukrainians were
disproportinately hit by the famine. It's somewhat reminiscent of the
antisemitic Doctors' Plot:
Doctors' plot
I have previously stated that there is no "smoking gun" evidence of
Ukrainians being specifrically targetted for their ethnicity by the
famine. Indeed, statistics show that rural Bulgarians, Poles,
Russians etc. living in Ukraine died at the same rate as their rural
Ukrainian neighbors (although since more Russians were urban than
rural the Russian community as a whole in Ukraine suffered less). The
evidence is circumstantial - Ukrainians in the USSR were harder hit
than anyone in terms of total numbers and, with the exception I
suppose of Kazakhs, in terms of proportion of the population. The
Famine coincided with the purging of all pro-Ukrainian elements within
the Ukrainian Communist party, elimination of the independant
Ukrainian Orthodox Church, and the wholesale murder of Ukrainian
cultural figures.
> http://www.archives.gov.ua/Sections/Famine/Publicat/Fam-Stalin-Kagano...
>
> Do you have time to look over them?
I will try later....
> There seems to be real concern to avoid starvation. Look at the letter
> Nr No.268. In it Stalin orders to ease things up for Ukraine but not for
> for the Russian SFSR areas: Volga, Siberia, Kazakhstan, Bashkiria.
> Quite contrary to the Holodomor claims, not?
Stalin said he would review those situations laters, not that he would
not ease things up for them at all. Specific statements are
interesting but must be viewed in their overall context. We do not
know whether "Easing things up" meant ending the killer quotes or just
a smaller level of starvation.
> The more I read the more I start to believe that the Politburo and
> even Stalin didn't intentionally want millions of poor peasants to
> die. The Famine and deaths were the result of:
>
> - the inability of a planned economy to manage crises, and the
> incompetence and ignorance of leadership
> - Stalin's insane idea of selling most grain abroad in order to fund
> his forced industrialisation
> - the insanity and brutality of the very idea of class hatred,
> collectivisation and "de-kulakization"
The fact that grain was forcefully taken from the starving peasants,
for the reasons you correctly outlined above, suggests that it was
deliberate.
> But not an intentional starvation for the purpose of genocide! If
> somebody came to the Politburo and gave them the food to feed all
> starving Ukrainian peasants, and actually provided transportation and
> distribution of this food - the Politburo would have gladly allowed
> the dispensation of this food.
It depends on how you define genocide. Is it actually physically
killing people or can it also apply to deliberate criminal
negligance.
This judgment seems realistic to me:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor#Was_the_Holodomor_a_genocide.3F
Professor Michael Ellman of the University of Amsterdam concludes
that, according to a relaxed definition of the term, the famine of
1932-33 may constitute genocide. He bases this on the actions (two of
commission and one of omission: exporting grain - 1.8 million tonnes -
during the mass starvation, preventing migration from famine afflicted
areas and making no effort to secure grain assistance from abroad) and
the attitude (that many of those starving to death were
"counterrevolutionaries," "idlers" or "thieves" who fully deserved
their fate) of the Stalinist regime in 1932-33. He asks:
“Throughout his career as a Soviet leader, from Tsaritsyn (1918) to
the ‘Doctors' plot’ (1953), he used violence (arrests, shootings,
deportations) to achieve his political goals. Is it really plausible
to suppose that with these perceptions, convictions, words, actions,
plans, and record, Stalin would have abstained from an efficient, cost-
saving method (i.e. starvation) of repressing
‘counterrevolutionaries’ (or ‘anti-Soviet elements’) and liquidating
‘idlers’?”[55]
> Here are photocopies of numerous Politburo documents ordering the
> distribution of food to the effected areas, taken from the Politburo
> archives:
>
> http://forum.fraza.ua/read.php?1,255843,page=1
The question is how comperehensive those orders were and how they are
judged by historians. One can pick and choose specific documents to
paint many kinds of pictures.
regards,
BM
lorad
So which commie partisan unit was your momma in?
Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr.
My mother was too young and too female to fight in WW2. Both of my
grandfathers died fighting your Nazi friends in WW2: one defending
Moscow, the other - liberating Kursk.
Several of my realtives were slaughtered by Latvian nationalists
("patriots"?) in the city of Daugavpils.
Thank you for your gloating over the suffering of my family.
Tadas Blinda
<ostap_bender_1...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Jun 18, 5:58 pm, lorad <lorad...@cs.com> wrote:
>
> > On Jun 10, 1:32 am, ostap_bender_1...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> > > [snip]
>
> > So which commie partisan unit was your momma in?
>
> My mother was too young and too female to fight in WW2. Both of my
> grandfathers died fighting your Nazi friends in WW2: one defending
> Moscow, the other - liberating Kursk.
If you want to be taken seriously Ostap, go easy on calling people
Nazis or saying they are Nazi-lovers. We Balts did not invite either
the Germans or the Russians to interfere in our affairs: that was all
their own idea. To us, both sides are loathsome. Now, in 2009,
Germany slightly less loathsome only because it has done it's
repentance, which Russia will never do until it's forced to, such
being the brutish Russian nature.
> Several of my realtives were slaughtered by Latvian nationalists
> ("patriots"?) in the city of Daugavpils.
They were fighting invaders. Why can't you accept that fact and be
honest? Germany and Russia caused incredible suffering and damage to
the Baltic countries, and the Soviet legacy continues to drag them
down. Hanging around SCB calling us Nazis is not laudable behaviour.
Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr.
> On Jun 19, 5:57 am, "Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr."
>
> <ostap_bender_1...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > On Jun 18, 5:58 pm, lorad <lorad...@cs.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Jun 10, 1:32 am, ostap_bender_1...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> > > > [snip]
>
> > > So which commie partisan unit was your momma in?
>
> > My mother was too young and too female to fight in WW2. Both of my
> > grandfathers died fighting your Nazi friends in WW2: one defending
> > Moscow, the other - liberating Kursk.
>
>
> > Several of my realtives were slaughtered by Latvian nationalists
> > ("patriots"?) in the city of Daugavpils.
>
> They were fighting invaders.
>
Who "they"? The murderers of my relatives were fighting invaders? But
my relatives were not invaders. They had lived in Daugavpils as far
back as the family history goes, for centuries afaik. They were
neither "invaders" nor were they "fighting". They were old people,
women and children. They died in the Holocaust, namely in Daugavpils.
>
> Why can't you accept that fact and be
> honest? Germany and Russia caused incredible suffering and damage to
> the Baltic countries, and the Soviet legacy continues to drag them
> down.
>
What do my relatives, perished in Holocaust, have to do with anything
that you wrote there? I don't think it is a fair to label Holocaust
victims "invaders" and to blame them for the suffering of their non-
Jewish Baltic neighbours.
>
> If you want to be taken seriously Ostap, go easy on calling people
> Nazis or saying they are Nazi-lovers.
>
In other words, you find it totally acceptable for Lorad to come from
out of the blue and to insult me with "So which commie partisan unit
was your momma in?" But when in reply I retaliated for his attack on
my mother and wrote that Nazis were Lorad’s friends - that's
unacceptable?
>
> Hanging around SCB calling us Nazis is not laudable behaviour.
>
And hanging around SCB calling our mothers "commies" __is__ laudable
behaviour? How disgusting.
Moreover, I never said or implied that you or anybody else at SCB are
Nazis. I didn't even say that Lorad was a Nazi. What I said to him is
that German Nazis were his friends. He wrote:
>
> > > So which commie partisan unit was your momma in?
>
First of all, that piece was insulting to my mother. And such things
don't go lightly. If Lorad insulted my mother to my or any other man's
face, he would be in the hospital right now. He should feel lucky that
Usenet provides him the opportunity to insult people's mothers from
long distance.
Second, look at a definition of the word "partisan":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partisan_(military)
Partisan (military)
A partisan is a member of an irregular military force formed to oppose
control of an area by a foreign power or by an army of occupation. The
term can apply to the field element of resistance movements that
opposed German rule in several countries during World War II (most
notably, Soviet Partisans).
Since Lorad meant the word "partisan" as an insult, then clearly he is
angry at "resistance movements that opposed German rule". Thus I
parried his insult with a reply that German Nazis were his friends.
What does it have to do with anybody else here, except Lorad? He
insulted me - I insulted him back.
You found Lorad's insults on my mother and to the resistance fighters
to be proper, but you found my insult to Lorad improper and even an
offence to you. So why would I want to insult you? You have never
insulted my mother. However, if you ever do insult my mother, like
calling here "commie" – expect my retort.
Vladimir Makarenko
My neighbor in childhood was a Colonel Botwinnik. A Huge size burly man
who hate us children and mostly slept in a huge chair: that is how I
learned the word "SS" - we were crowling around and found a huge knife
with the insignia "SS".
Hah, I guess the Colonel make it even. He was an artillery commander.
God bless Colonel Botwinnik.
VM.
lorad
>
> My neighbor in childhood was a Colonel Botwinnik. A Huge size burly man
> who hate us children and mostly slept in a huge chair: that is how I
> learned the word "SS" - we were crowling around and found a huge knife
> with the insignia "SS".
>
> Hah, I guess the Colonel make it even. He was an artillery commander.
>
> God bless Colonel Botwinnik.
>
Him probably so big because his relatives send him cans of nutritious
US made dog food.
lorad
<ostap_bender_1...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Jun 19, 12:03 pm, Tadas Blinda <tadas.bli...@lycos.es> wrote:
> > On Jun 19, 5:57 am, "Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr.>
> > <ostap_bender_1...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > On Jun 18, 5:58 pm, lorad <lorad...@cs.com> wrote:
> > > > On Jun 10, 1:32 am, ostap_bender_1...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > > > > [snip]
>
> > > > So which commie partisan unit was your momma in?
>
> > > My mother was too young and too female to fight in WW2. Both of my
> > > grandfathers died fighting your Nazi friends in WW2: one defending
> > > Moscow, the other - liberating Kursk.
>
> > > Several of my realtives were slaughtered by Latvian nationalists
> > > ("patriots"?) in the city of Daugavpils.
>
> > They were fighting invaders.
>
> Who "they"? The murderers of my relatives were fighting invaders? But
> my relatives were not invaders. They had lived in Daugavpils as far
> back as the family history goes, for centuries afaik. They were
> neither "invaders" nor were they "fighting". They were old people,
> women and children. They died in the Holocaust, namely in Daugavpils.
Please... no more russian lies.
It seems that every single russian sovok posting here claims
Daugavpils as home.. something that is very unlikely.
And no russian in Daugavpils 'goes back centuries'.. that's another
lie.
Your sovok relatives probably arived on the back of a russkie tank.
And if they got blown away for their efforts... so much the better.
Vladimir Makarenko
>> My neighbor in childhood was a Colonel Botwinnik. A Huge size burly man
>> who hate us children and mostly slept in a huge chair: that is how I
>> learned the word "SS" - we were crowling around and found a huge knife
>> with the insignia "SS".
>>
>> Hah, I guess the Colonel make it even. He was an artillery commander.
>>
>> God bless Colonel Botwinnik.
>>
>> VM.-
>
> Him probably so big because his relatives send him cans of nutritious
> US made dog food.
You probably haven't read my text with attention required:
Late Colonel has a GrandSon, who may get really upset if he sees the
crap you wrote about his grandpa.
I just wonder - did a simple idea ever visited your mind that other
people also can become angry when you jump on their siblings?
Do you really think that you are A Unique and everybody else is just a
weather report? Then think again.
VM.
Anton
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partisan_(military)
Look at what Soviet partisans were up to in my country:
http://cid-25a05b1c35fca9d9.skydrive.live.com/browse.aspx/.res/25A05B1C35FCA9D9!107/
Warning! Extremely brutal footage! Not for the faint hearted!
Good thing your relatives were not part of that kind of activity.
--
Anton
captain!
"Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr." <ostap_be...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:dc1f9cc9-d29f-45a0...@u9g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partisan_(military)
Partisan (military)
///////////////
your mistake was in expecting tadas to be rational. haven't you learned yet?
captain!
"lorad" <lora...@cs.com> wrote in message
news:0860ed8e-f525-43c2...@r13g2000vbr.googlegroups.com...
>And no russian in Daugavpils 'goes back centuries'.. that's another
lie.
Your sovok relatives probably arived on the back of a russkie tank.
And if they got blown away for their efforts... so much the better.
///////////////////
a little overly harsh there lorry.
Tadas Blinda
> "Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr." <ostap_bender_1...@hotmail.com> wrote in messagenews:dc1f9cc9-d29f-45a0...@u9g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
Vous perdez toujours les bonnes opportunités de vous taire.
Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr.
> On Jun 19, 5:40 pm, "Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr."
> <ostap_bender_1...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > On Jun 19, 12:03 pm, Tadas Blinda <tadas.bli...@lycos.es> wrote:
> > > On Jun 19, 5:57 am, "Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr.>
> > > <ostap_bender_1...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > > On Jun 18, 5:58 pm, lorad <lorad...@cs.com> wrote:
> > > > > On Jun 10, 1:32 am, ostap_bender_1...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > [snip]
>
> > > > > So which commie partisan unit was your momma in?
>
> > > > My mother was too young and too female to fight in WW2. Both of my
> > > > grandfathers died fighting your Nazi friends in WW2: one defending
> > > > Moscow, the other - liberating Kursk.
>
> > > > Several of my realtives were slaughtered by Latvian nationalists
> > > > ("patriots"?) in the city of Daugavpils.
>
> > > They were fighting invaders.
>
> > Who "they"? The murderers of my relatives were fighting invaders? But
> > my relatives were not invaders. They had lived in Daugavpils as far
> > back as the family history goes, for centuries afaik. They were
> > neither "invaders" nor were they "fighting". They were old people,
> > women and children. They died in the Holocaust, namely in Daugavpils.
>
> Please... no more russian lies.
>
Are you saying that almost all Daugavpils Jews perished in the
Hoilocaust. Care to share your sources?
>
> It seems that every single russian sovok posting here claims
> Daugavpils as home.. something that is very unlikely.
>
Who else does, other than I and Joseph Brodsky? :-)
>
> Your sovok relatives probably arived on the back of a russkie tank.
>
My Jewish family came to Daugavpils (or, as we call it Denenburg
דענענבורג)
225 years ago. Before German and Latvian Nazis exterminated virtually
all of them, Jews constituted, as Petris likes to say, the plurality
of the population:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daugavpils
From 1784 onwards, the city had a large and active Jewish population
[1] with proeminent personalities. According to Russian census of
1897, out of the total population of 69,700, Jews constituted 32,400
(around 44% percent).[2]
>
> And if they got blown away for their efforts... so much the better.
>
I understand your gloating. But let me correct you slightly: not that
it will diminish your glee, but we Jews were not so much "blown away"
as shot:
http://www.answers.com/topic/history-of-the-jews-in-latvia
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/vjw/Latvia.html
Jews were not only persecuted by the Nazis, but by significant numbers
of Latvian activists who had belonged to anti-Semitic organizations
like Aizsargi paramilitary … who systematically aided in the
annihilation of the Jews of Latvia.
Even before the Nazi administration began persecuting the Latvian
Jews, they had suffered from antisemitic excesses at the hands of the
Latvian activists. Chief among these were the members of the Fascist
antisemitic organization called Pērkonkrusts, which later collaborated
with the Nazis in the annihilation of the Jewish community. The
Einsatzgruppen (“action commandos”) played a leading role in the
destruction of Latvian Jews, according to information given in their
own reports
At the instigation of the Einsatzgruppe, the Latvian auxiliary police
carried out a pogrom against the Jews in Riga. All synagogues were
destroyed and 400 Jews were killed. According to Stahlecker’s report,
the number of Jews killed in mass executions by Einsatzgruppe-A by the
end of October 1941 in Riga, Jelgava (Mitau), Liepaja, Valmiera, and
Daugavpils totaled 30,025. By the end of December 1941 35,238
Latvian Jews had been killed. Only 2,500 Jews remained in the Riga
ghetto and 950 in the Daugavpils ghetto. Overall, the Nazis and their
collaborators killed 95 percent of the 100,000 Jews in Latvia.
Latvians of varying backgrounds also took an active part in the
persecution and murder of the Jews. At the time of the German retreat
in the summer of 1944, many of these collaborators fled to Germany.
After the war, as assumed Displaced Persons, they received aid from
UNRRA, from the International Refugee Organization(IRO), and other
relief organizations for Nazi victims, and some of them immigrated to
the U.S. and other countries abroad.
//////////////////////////////////////
Vladimir Makarenko
"a little overly harsh"?
He took words from Nazi agitprop book, and you call this "a little"?
It is because you are a Canadian, you cannot even imagine what
unspeakable crimes were committed then. I suspect you think that humans
are just incapable of such.
VM.
Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr.
> Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr. kirjoitti:
>
> >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partisan_(military)
>
>
> Warning! Extremely brutal footage! Not for the faint hearted!
>
How did the Soviet partisans get inside the Finnish territory? By
definition, partisans operate on their own territory occupied by an
enemy.
>
> Good thing your relatives were not part of that kind of activity.
>
Of course they weren't. But two of my children's relatives on their
mother's side were starved to death by the "brave" Finns and Germans
when they blockaded Leningrad:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Leningrad
About 1.2 million civilians perished in the city. During the first
year of the siege, the city survived five food reductions. The latter
reduced the daily food consumption to 250 grams daily for manual
workers and 125 grams for other civilians. Reports of cannibalism
began to appear in the winter of 1941–1942, after all birds, rats and
pets were eaten by survivors.
The capture of Leningrad was one of three strategic goals in Hitler's
initial plan, codenamed Operation Barbarossa, for invading and
conquering the Soviet Union. The siege was conducted by Wehrmacht
troops associated with Army Group North, with assistance from the
Finnish Army, as part of Barbarossa, which was launched on 22 June
1941. By August 1941 all railway lines to Leningrad were severed, and
the city was encircled on land by Finnish armies to the north and
German troops to the south. Concurrently, on 17 May 1942 the
International Naval Detachment K (with boats from Finland, Germany,
and Italy) was deployed on Lake Ladoga. During its patrols, the
Detachment interdicted the Leningrad supply route in the southern part
of the massive lake, sinking one barge. Bombing and artillery shelling
of Leningrad continued from August 1941 onwards. Finnish military
forces were located north of Leningrad, while German forces occupied
territories to the south. Both German and Finnish forces had the goal
of encircling Leningrad and maintaining the blockade perimeter, thus
cutting off all communication with the city and restricting them from
getting any food or goods.
///////////////////////
Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr.
Oh, I almost forgot. You like pictures:
http://img0.liveinternet.ru/images/attach/b/3/16/49/16049028_m_6056.jpg
http://pics.photographer.ru/pictures/5479.jpg
http://rentalsflat.com/images/short.jpg
http://www.antiq.info/news/images/pictures/large/102143.jpg
http://www.nsad.ru/pic/im8%5B1%5D.jpg
http://newsletter.infoflot.ru/Pics/Blokada/9.jpg
http://img15.nnm.ru/imagez/gallery/8/0/0/0/e/8000ea2e230f40d16cfbf404b4a4e509_full.jpg
Anton
> On Jun 20, 2:16 pm, Anton <anton.use...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr. kirjoitti:
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partisan_(military)
>> Look at what Soviet partisans were up to in my country:http://cid-25a05b1c35fca9d9.skydrive.live.com/browse.aspx/.res/25A05B...
>> Warning! Extremely brutal footage! Not for the faint hearted!
> How did the Soviet partisans get inside the Finnish territory?
By foot (or ski's?). A different kind of intruders, the NKVD "desantik"
spies and saboteurs, were parachuted from aircraft. They were often
spotted (and shot on the spot) before they had the chance to complete
their tasks.
> By
> definition, partisans operate on their own territory occupied by an
> enemy.
That's the interesting bit here: Soviets brought new meanings to the
word "partisan". They attacked behind enemy lines villages that were in
Finland proper, not some Russo-Carelian ones occupied by the Finns.
There were 45 of these attacks and 181 persons died, the youngest victim
a 6 months old infant:
http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuvostoliiton_partisaani-iskut_Suomeen
You can try http://translate.google.com
>> Good thing your relatives were not part of that kind of activity.
> Of course they weren't. But two of my children's relatives on their
> mother's side were starved to death by the "brave" Finns and Germans
> when they blockaded Leningrad:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Leningrad
From the Finnish perspective the siege was rather a consequence than an
objective - due to geographical realities. North of Leningrad and Lake
Ladoga was border land. Some of the Finnish officers acted without the
authorization of the high command, eg attacking Sukho island of the Lake
Ladoga in joint "Naval Detachment K" operations with the Germans and
Italians. The fact that the Finns defied German requests that Finns
attack an important supply route, the Murmansk railway line, supports
the position that the Finnish participation was half-assed at worst, or
in part even a passive one.
This subject has been discussed thoroughly several times. If a Finnish
city had been blockaded like that the authorities would have evacuated
the city and possibly (depending on the circumstances) surrender it to
the enemy (as happened with Vyborg). It was Stalin's policy to force the
civilian population to stay in cities under attack (Stalingrad) or siege
(Leningrad). A very inhumane policy that makes the job for the enemy
more difficult, but causes a very high number of civilian casulties.
I'm sorry about your relatives and other casulties. War is like that. I
wish nothing more than that it should be avoided as much as possible.
--
Anton
Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr.
> Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr. kirjoitti:
>
> > On Jun 20, 2:16 pm, Anton <anton.use...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr. kirjoitti:
> >>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partisan_(military)
> >> Look at what Soviet partisans were up to in my country:http://cid-25a05b1c35fca9d9.skydrive.live.com/browse.aspx/.res/25A05B...
> >> Warning! Extremely brutal footage! Not for the faint hearted!
> > How did the Soviet partisans get inside the Finnish territory?
>
> By foot (or ski's?). A different kind of intruders, the NKVD "desantik"
> spies and saboteurs, were parachuted from aircraft. They were often
> spotted (and shot on the spot) before they had the chance to complete
> their tasks.
>
> > By
> > definition, partisans operate on their own territory occupied by an
> > enemy.
>
> That's the interesting bit here: Soviets brought new meanings to the
> word "partisan". They attacked behind enemy lines villages that were in
> Finland proper, not some Russo-Carelian ones occupied by the Finns.
> There were 45 of these attacks and 181 persons died, the youngest victim
> a 6 months old infant:
>
> http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuvostoliiton_partisaani-iskut_Suomeen
>
> You can tryhttp://translate.google.com
>
I have never managed to get any on-line translators translate from
Finnish, and I tried before. Would you please give me any more details
as to where and when? In particluar, did this happen close to any
Russian city like Leningrad or something? And when exactly?
>
> >> Good thing your relatives were not part of that kind of activity.
> > Of course they weren't. But two of my children's relatives on their
> > mother's side were starved to death by the "brave" Finns and Germans
> > when they blockaded Leningrad:
> >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Leningrad
>
> From the Finnish perspective the siege was rather a consequence than an
> objective - due to geographical realities.
>
Well, but the 1.2 million who starved to death may not understand all
the subtleties why exaclty the Finns and Germans found it to me to
their strategic advantage to kill them.
>
> North of Leningrad and Lake
> Ladoga was border land. Some of the Finnish officers acted without the
> authorization of the high command
>
For more than two years in a row?!!!! Surely, it couldn't have taken
the Finnish command 2 whole years to notice that their almost entire
army was blockading the north side of Leninglrad.
And of all people, the presumably noble former Russian Imperial hero -
general Mannerheim, who in his younger years had sworn a solemn oath
to defend innocent Russian civilians and had previously done so
valiantly - should have known better.
>
> eg attacking Sukho island of the Lake
> Ladoga in joint "Naval Detachment K" operations with the Germans and
> Italians. The fact that the Finns defied German requests that Finns
> attack an important supply route, the Murmansk railway line, supports
> the position that the Finnish participation was half-assed at worst, or
> in part even a passive one.
>
> This subject has been discussed thoroughly several times. If a Finnish
> city had been blockaded like that the authorities would have evacuated
> the city and possibly (depending on the circumstances) surrender it to
> the enemy (as happened with Vyborg). It was Stalin's policy to force the
> civilian population to stay in cities under attack (Stalingrad) or siege
> (Leningrad). A very inhumane policy that makes the job for the enemy
> more difficult, but causes a very high number of civilian casulties.
>
It is very common in criminal courts for the murderer to blame the
victim: "He shouldn't have made a sudden move when I put my gun to his
head" or "He should have just given me his money without
complaining", etc. The courts seldom fall for this travesty of
blanming the victim.
In any case, since my wife's relatives were Jewish, the surrender that
you expect from Russia would have meant death to them at the hands of
your German allies anyway. In fact, as I said, only 2 died. If the
Russians had done what they never do - surrender - _all_ of her
relatives, remaining in Leningrad, would have been dead. So, it may
surprise you but I am glad that Russians never surrender. This save
us, Jews.
Moreover, how do you evacuate the huge metropolis of Leninglrad with
the population of some 3 to 4 million (which was the size of entire
Finland) out in a few days? The Russians did get as many people as
possible:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effect_of_the_Siege_of_Leningrad_on_the_city
About 1.4 million people were rescued by military evacuation from the
besieged city of Leningrad in two years between September 1941 and
November 1943.
That's 1.4 million, almost half of the city, including many (but not
all) of my wife's relatives, just as most of my own relatives were
evacuated from Moscow in November 1941.
But another 1.2 million perished. That's one third of the population
of the entire Finland.
>
> I'm sorry about your relatives and other casulties. War is like that. I
> wish nothing more than that it should be avoided as much as possible.
>
And I agree. And maybe next time before you blame the partisans, you
may ask if they were trying to save millions of innocent civilians in
Leningrad or were venting their frustrations at their inability to do
so.
As I said many times, I am sorry that USSR attacked Finland in 1940,
and I beleive that the land taken then, should be now returned to
Finland. But average Russians have already paid dearly for Stalin's
offence with 1.2 million dead. In fact, I very much doubt if the
number of civilian Finns, killed by Stalin (including whatever number
of innocent Finns killed by partisans in WW2), is anywhere close to
this horrifying figure of 1.2 million. How long can a human being
survive on 125 grams of bread per day?
Anton
> On Jun 22, 3:37 am, Anton <anton.use...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> That's the interesting bit here: Soviets brought new meanings to the
>> word "partisan". They attacked behind enemy lines villages that were in
>> Finland proper, not some Russo-Carelian ones occupied by the Finns.
>> There were 45 of these attacks and 181 persons died, the youngest victim
>> a 6 months old infant:
>> http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuvostoliiton_partisaani-iskut_Suomeen
>>
>> You can try http://translate.google.com
> I have never managed to get any on-line translators translate from
> Finnish, and I tried before. Would you please give me any more details
> as to where and when? In particluar, did this happen close to any
> Russian city like Leningrad or something? And when exactly?
No major city was close. This was further north. Kainuu and Lapland. The
villages (with the corresponding munipality in parenthesis) and the
dates are listed here:
>>>> Good thing your relatives were not part of that kind of activity.
>>> Of course they weren't. But two of my children's relatives on their
>>> mother's side were starved to death by the "brave" Finns and Germans
>>> when they blockaded Leningrad:
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Leningrad
>> From the Finnish perspective the siege was rather a consequence than an
>> objective - due to geographical realities.
> Well, but the 1.2 million who starved to death may not understand all
> the subtleties why exaclty the Finns and Germans found it to me to
> their strategic advantage to kill them.
Finns advancement halted at the Karelian isthmus (west-northwest of
Leningrad) and the forces north of Ladoga did not advance south,
south-eastward of river Svir either, leaving 100 km of Ladoga shore for
the Russians. If the intention was to strangle Leningrad the Finns were
not doing a very good job. This fact is even recognized by most
Russians, including their regime at the time: the only place where the
encirclement "leaked" was at the direction where the Finns were. The
Finns could have complied to the German request and advance further
towards the city, but they refused.
>> North of Leningrad and Lake
>> Ladoga was border land. Some of the Finnish officers acted without the
>> authorization of the high command
> For more than two years in a row?!!!! Surely, it couldn't have taken
> the Finnish command 2 whole years to notice that their almost entire
> army was blockading the north side of Leningrad.
I'm not saying they had any intention to make efforts to help the
population there. The city happens to be south, south east of Karelia.
The Finns where fighting for their own objectives there. I suspect you
don't have any evidence for the "almost entire army" blockading the
north of the city? Most of the deciding battles between USSR and Finland
like the battle of Tali-Ihantala, went in east-west direction at the
southern parts of Karelia (west, north-west of Leningrad).
You can read about the Finnish involvement here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Leningrad#Finland_and_Germany
Both the Finnish and English Wikipedia mentions that Finns did not
advance towards the city any further than the old border west of the
city and north at river Svir (which borders to Russian East Karelia).
Finns did not shell or bomb the city either. An interesting observation
that the English version does not mention is the fact that the Finns,
refusing to advance towards the city, even refused the Germans to move
their troops through Finnish positions.
All this indicates that for the larger part the Finns considered this
battle as something between the Germans and the USSR and almost
exclusively made such decisions that kept their involvement to the most
minimum possible.
In short: Finns had little interest in Leningrad - in both good and bad.
> And of all people, the presumably noble former Russian Imperial hero -
> general Mannerheim, who in his younger years had sworn a solemn oath
> to defend innocent Russian civilians and had previously done so
> valiantly - should have known better.
Mannerheim was in the moderate camp as in dealing with Leningrad and
Russia. There were other more extreme views among some of the Finnish
political and military leadership. He was the guy saying "no" to most
requests made by th Germans.
> In any case, since my wife's relatives were Jewish, the surrender that
> you expect from Russia would have meant death to them at the hands of
> your German allies anyway. In fact, as I said, only 2 died. If the
> Russians had done what they never do - surrender - _all_ of her
> relatives, remaining in Leningrad, would have been dead. So, it may
> surprise you but I am glad that Russians never surrender. This save
> us, Jews.
I did not expect a surrender. I was merely processing different options.
Maybe the circumstances were different, but the way Viborg was
surrendered it happened in the order: first evacuate civilian
population, then withdraw the bulk of the troops out from the city.
> Moreover, how do you evacuate the huge metropolis of Leninglrad with
> the population of some 3 to 4 million (which was the size of entire
> Finland) out in a few days? The Russians did get as many people as
> possible:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effect_of_the_Siege_of_Leningrad_on_the_city
Ok, I might have been too optimistic as to the realistic possibilities
of evacuating the population.
>> I'm sorry about your relatives and other casulties. War is like that. I
>> wish nothing more than that it should be avoided as much as possible.
> And I agree. And maybe next time before you blame the partisans, you
> may ask if they were trying to save millions of innocent civilians in
> Leningrad or were venting their frustrations at their inability to do
> so.
Come on: I was only stating facts about the partisans. The Siege of
Leningrad is already a known and documented event, but the world needs
to know also everything, even the unpleasant facts, about the Soviet
partisans.
> As I said many times, I am sorry that USSR attacked Finland in 1940,
> and I beleive that the land taken then, should be now returned to
> Finland.
Well that would be a generous offer and a gesture of good will, but we
know a returning of the territories is hardly realistic. Returning of
the lands is not something most ordinary people think about either. I'm
however happy that some people with USSR origin feel this way. Official
Finland has no territorial demands to Russia and I suspect such wishes
will not be presented during my lifetime.
As I mentioned earlier the occupied territories could be assigned a
special status instead inside the Russian Federation so that descendants
of the original population could be allowed to by property there. This
would benefit culture and business of an otherwise backward, remote
corner of the country.
> But average Russians have already paid dearly for Stalin's
> offence with 1.2 million dead.
I'm sorry about that as in any case where human life is lost. However I
repeat: Finns were not interested in Leningrad - in both good and bad.
Finnish objectives were in Karelia. Even most Russian political leaders
and historians agree on that. (Karelia borders to Leningrad - it is a
geographical fact).
> In fact, I very much doubt if the
> number of civilian Finns, killed by Stalin (including whatever number
> of innocent Finns killed by partisans in WW2), is anywhere close to
> this horrifying figure of 1.2 million.
Hey: it isn't about some pissing contest. "Who has the higher pile of
corpses" or something like that.
> How long can a human being
> survive on 125 grams of bread per day?
Hadn't it been for a tiny hole on the "Finnsh side" of the encirclement
the ration would have been 0 grams.
--
Anton
captain!
"Tadas Blinda" <tadas....@lycos.es> wrote in message
news:85c2b9b9-c265-4742...@j12g2000vbl.googlegroups.com...
Vous perdez toujours les bonnes opportunit�s de vous taire.
/////////////
fermez la bouche silvouplait :)
captain!
"Vladimir Makarenko" <vma...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:2d6dncyWWfH4JqPX...@giganews.com...
...incapable of understanding each other.
btw, noone else said anything, so my reaction was therefor the strongest.
captain!
"Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr." <ostap_be...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:98f959fa-8401-43f3...@x1g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
Tadas Blinda
> how did i miss the original link? please repost anton.
>
> On Jun 20, 2:16 pm, Anton <anton.use...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr. kirjoitti:
>
> > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partisan_(military)
>
> > Look at what Soviet partisans were up to in my
> > country:http://cid-25a05b1c35fca9d9.skydrive.live.com/browse.aspx/.res/25A05B...
>
> > Warning! Extremely brutal footage! Not for the faint hearted!
>
> How did the Soviet partisans get inside the Finnish territory? By
> definition, partisans operate on their own territory occupied by an
> enemy.
For once, correct. Therefore, there cannot be any such thing as
bolshevik or pro-Soviet partisans. They are jsut criminals,
"banditi", traitors.
Anton
> how did i miss the original link? please repost anton.
>
Here's the link:
http://cid-25a05b1c35fca9d9.skydrive.live.com/browse.aspx/.res/25A05B1C35FCA9D9!107/
In tiny url version:
http://tinyurl.com/ortbvs
It is a very sparsely populated land. The Finno-Russian border is more
than 1200 km long and thick forest grows most of the length of it. It is
not difficult to cross the border and hide in the woods. There was no
thermal sensing equipment nor helicopters back in those days...
--
Anton
captain!
"Anton" <anton....@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:h24bcp$d9k$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr.
> "Tadas Blinda" <tadas.bli...@lycos.es> wrote in message
>
> /////////////
>
> fermez la bouche silvouplait :)
>
Loose lips sink ships.