All former UPA members and their families:
rho...@ix.netcom.com
please post your stories, histories, and comments here. Many us would like to read your accounts
of what "active nationalist" did in the struggle for our independence. You should be proud of your
contributions to our freedom and the suffering you endured as a result.
WaRR
rho...@ix.netcom.com wrote in message
<717loe$d...@sjx-ixn9.ix.netcom.com>...
How about killing innocent civilians, skinning people alive, plucking
peoples eyes, hammering wooden pieces into ears and noses, mutiliating alive
soldiers, raping young girls, seting children on fire, bounding with barb
wire etc etc etc etc.
How is that for patriotism of the "great" UPA bandits.
Write those stories that everybody seems to forget these days...
WaRR
GRycar
You are an Ass.
The truth is that UPA fought honorably without degenerating to the bestialities
of their enemies.
Needless to say, against the army of slaves and their masters, UPA did
acomplish its goals and did put a stop to the bestialities perpetuated in
Western Ukraine Russians.
You Asshole, are not a Ukrainian but instead a Soviet liar and prevaricator.
Ukrainians unlike you, respect the truth and do honor their heroes.
That you come from a human hell that had no heroes, no honesty and no freedom
is self appearant.
Go spread your prevarications somplace else.
Your legacy is lying, terror and death.
Do drop death.
George R.
al...@ix.netcom.com
Methinks George's loosing his touch. He forgot to use word "duplicity". He did
use "prevarication" twice, though. Ohh, and two "bestialities". But only one
"legacy"?!!! He's probably getting lazy.
George A. Miziuk
WaRR wrote:
You obviously have the UPA confused with the KGB.
I suggest you read some HISTORY books instead of repeating any SOVOK
propaganda you were brainwashed with.
spea...@netcom.ca
>
> Warr;
>
> You are an Ass.
>
> The truth is that UPA fought honorably without degenerating to the bestialities
> of their enemies.
>
> Needless to say, against the army of slaves and their masters, UPA did
> acomplish its goals and did put a stop to the bestialities perpetuated in
> Western Ukraine Russians.
>
> You Asshole, are not a Ukrainian but instead a Soviet liar and prevaricator.
>
> Ukrainians unlike you, respect the truth and do honor their heroes.
>
> That you come from a human hell that had no heroes, no honesty and no freedom
> is self appearant.
>
> Go spread your prevarications somplace else.
>
> Your legacy is lying, terror and death.
>
> Do drop death.
>
> George R.
Only a warrbler of alike ilk would quarrel with your condemna-
tion of our visiting Warriat from the PaTr...@OjczYzNa.CoM, who
so lucidly epitomizes the not-yet-extinct Polish-pomme de terre-
puissance chauvinism.
This warrped warrior, undoubtedly indoctrinated under the
pre-
varicating PRL (i.e., Polish Peoples Republic) tutelage, has
obviously miscast the victims for perpetrators...
For example, on 25/01/1946 the 2nd Batalion of the 34-th
Regiment of the Polish Peoples Army, under the command of
Capt. Kzyra and Lt.Col. Stanislaw Pluto, respectively, in the
most depraved manner butchered 66 inhabitants in the village
of Zawadka Morochowska (in Sanok district)*.
The following is a partial list of the victims, by families and
in alphabetical order(status and ages in parentheses):
Bilas Kateryna (approx. 60), Bilas Pelahija (approx. 50),
Bilas Ewa (36), Bilas Teodor (65), Bilas Iwan (46),
Bilas Marija (38), Bilas Sofija (7),
Bilas Kateryna,
Bonczak Osyp,Bonczak Marija(wife),Bonczak Kateryna(daughter),
Bonczak Dmytro (50), Bonczak Iwan (brother),
Cyhanyk Wasyl, Cyhanyk Kateryna (mother), Cyhanyk Iwan
Dobrianski Mykola,
Dudynczak Anastasija (40), Dudynczak Osyp (40),
Hrynio Iwan,
Izdebska Ewa, Izdebska Kateryna (6 months),
Izdebski Mychajlo, Izdebski Petro (brother),
Izdebski Nestor,
Klemczyk Anna, Klemczyk Dmytro,
Kozlyk Kateryna, Kozlyk Anna, Kozlyk Ewa,
Kyrylejza Marija (41, born in USA), Kyrylejza Anna (daughter,
16), Kyrylejza Kateryna (daughter, 15),
Kyrylejza Kateryna, Kyrylejza Jaroslaw (son), Kyrylejza Petro
(brother),
Maksym Andrij (70), Maksym Marija (wife), Maksym Anastasija
(daughter-in-law), Maksym Stepan (10), Maksym Kateryna (4),
Maksym Anna (1),
Neczysta Anna, Neczysta Kateryna (daughter, 20),
Neczystyj Mychajlo (wounded), Neczysta Kateryna (wife),
Neczysta Sofija (daughter, 8), Neczysta Marija (daughter, 6),
Neczystyj Taras (3), Neczysta Mahdalyna (17),
Neczystyj Andrij,
Neczystyj Iwan,
Tomasz Kateryna, Tomasz Marija (daughter), Tomasz Anna
(daughter), Tomasz Stepan (son).
Apparently, unsatisfied with the degree of their earlier
success,
the Polish Peoples Army returned to that village on two other
occasions, for a corrigendum...
On 28/03/1946, their murdered victims were:
Bilas Iwan (36), Bilas Teodor (40),
Dobrianski Wasyl (35),
Kyrylejza Dmytro (48),
Klemczyk Mychajlo (28),
Kozlyk Stepan (18),
Masluch Iwan (46), Masluch Mykola (26), Masluch Teodor (26),
Neczystyj Mychajlo (38),
Szurkalo Jakym (40).
On 13/04/1946, the victorious Polish Peoples Army returned and
found a few more survivors to kill:
Bonczyk Wolodymyr (18),
Dobrianski Wolodymyr (15), Dobrianski Iwan (22),
Kyrylejza Iwan (42),
Masluch Orest (27),
Neczystyj Sianko (3).
*[Mikolaj Siwicki, Dzieje Konfliktow Polsko-Ukrainskich, Tom 3,
Nakladem autora, Warszawa 1994, 1-st ed., Dokument 65, W Zawadce
Morochowskiej, pp. 317-319, ISBN 83-900779-2-2]
GHC
Amazon
WaRR wrote:
> rho...@ix.netcom.com wrote in message
> <717loe$d...@sjx-ixn9.ix.netcom.com>...
> >All former UPA members and their families, especially those acticve in
> Ukraine from 1945 - 1955
> >please post your stories, histories, and comments here. Many us would like
> to read your accounts
> >of what "active nationalist" did in the struggle for our independence. You
> should be proud of your
> >contributions to our freedom and the suffering you endured as a result.
>
> How about killing innocent civilians, skinning people alive, plucking
> peoples eyes, hammering wooden pieces into ears and noses, mutiliating alive
> soldiers, raping young girls, seting children on fire, bounding with barb
> wire etc etc etc etc.
>
> How is that for patriotism of the "great" UPA bandits.
>
> Write those stories that everybody seems to forget these days...
>
> WaRR
You poor confused fellow, what propaganda service did you say you
were working for?
The goals of the UPA have now finally been realized with the collapse of
the Evil Empire, what the UPA called the "Prison House of Nations".
Your attempt to smear them indicates that you are an apologist for that
former Evil Empire which destroyed millions of innocent men, women and
children on a scale only comparable to that of the Nazis.
You are one vile and disgusting individual.
WaRR
spea...@netcom.ca wrote in message <363C13...@netcom.ca>...
>GRycar wrote:
>>
>> Warr;
>>
>> You are an Ass.
>>
>> The truth is that UPA fought honorably without degenerating to the
bestialities
>> of their enemies.
>>
>> Needless to say, against the army of slaves and their masters, UPA did
>> acomplish its goals and did put a stop to the bestialities perpetuated in
>> Western Ukraine Russians.
>>
>> You Asshole, are not a Ukrainian but instead a Soviet liar and
prevaricator.
>>
>> Ukrainians unlike you, respect the truth and do honor their heroes.
>>
>> That you come from a human hell that had no heroes, no honesty and no
freedom
>> is self appearant.
>>
>> Go spread your prevarications somplace else.
>>
>> Your legacy is lying, terror and death.
>>
>> Do drop death.
>>
>> George R.
>
>
Why didnt you quote my previous post ? What are you affraid of ? We all know
that UPA was famous for its extensive use of torture, expamples were
provided before, mass executions of innocent civilians in its vicious
campaign against Polish and Ukrainian people. Now bastards of those UPA
bandits are desecrating Polish cemetaries in Lwow where young brave Polish
scouts fought for Lwow and south eastern lands of Poland.
There was no place for UPA murderers in history, thats why they failed.
There is no place for Ukraine in Europe unless Lwow cemetaries are rebuilt
and maintained with Euro standards.
WaRR
Danko
After trying to discuss issues with ideologically blinded people like
Amazon and GeorgeR I am getting more and more convinced in the principle
once formulated by Rey in his book "Intelligent Eye":
"People do not only believe what they see, but they only can see what they
believe in."
Brutality of both Bolsheviks and Ukrainian Nationalists is well known and
well documented, however their followers and descendants will forever see
only the sins and crimes of the other side. Arguing with them is useless.
It does not really matter what kind of cretinism a person partakes in, the
question is to eliminate cretinism itself.
As for the UPA (and Bolsheviks for that matter) what was done was done, it
cannot be changed, we all have to learn our lessons and get on with our
lives.
Danko
Danko
It is not enough to work for a good end, it is crucial to employ good
means. The fact that UPA was fighting against the Evil Empire does not
justify the means they employed. One cannot combat terrorism with terror,
for in such a case the very purpose of fighting is defeated, for at the end
not terrorism but just one form of it is eliminated while the terrorism
itself continues to flourish, just in a different shape.
Considering events of 1939 and forceful and illegal annexation of Bukovina
and the West of Ukraine by the USSR, one can but accept that a liberation
movement (even in a military form) would have been justified there. But
when one looks at means and methods employed by the resistance movement
(the OUN/UPA would be a substantial part of it) one has to ask oneself a
question how one kind of evil is better then another.
From your previous posts Amazon (same applies to GeorgeR) it appears to me
that you cannot understand that there are people who hated both the Evil
Empire (= the USSR) and the Not-less Evil Empire (= the USA and alike). As
of now any nation/country is presented with a historic choice between few
different evils.
Danko
spea...@netcom.ca
>
> spea...@netcom.ca wrote in message <363C13...@netcom.ca>...
> >GRycar wrote:
> >>
> >> Warr;
> >>
> >> You are an Ass.
> >>
> >> The truth is that UPA fought honorably without degenerating to the
> bestialities
> >> of their enemies.
> >>
> >> Needless to say, against the army of slaves and their masters, UPA did
> >> acomplish its goals and did put a stop to the bestialities perpetuated in
> >> Western Ukraine Russians.
> >>
> >> You Asshole, are not a Ukrainian but instead a Soviet liar and
> prevaricator.
> >>
> >> Ukrainians unlike you, respect the truth and do honor their heroes.
> >>
> >> That you come from a human hell that had no heroes, no honesty and no
> freedom
> >> is self appearant.
> >>
> >> Go spread your prevarications somplace else.
> >>
> >> Your legacy is lying, terror and death.
> >>
> >> Do drop death.
> >>
> >> George R.
> >
> >
> >> GHC
>
> Why didnt you quote my previous post ? What are you affraid of ?
Because Mr. Rycar's reply is accurate, unlike your fabrication.
By the way, "why didn't you quote my previuos post ? What are
you afraid of ?"...
> We all know
Are you referring to your various personalities...?
> that UPA was famous for its extensive use of torture, expamples were
> provided before, mass executions of innocent civilians in its vicious
> campaign against Polish and Ukrainian people.
I am sure that this is what you have been taught at school.
However, the Iron Curtain has fallen, the USSR has collapsed,
the PPR has transformed itself into III Rzeczpospolita, and
the truth has, hopefully, prevailed.
Your nonsense even exceeds the staple lies from "Ogniomistrz
Kalen"...
> Now bastards of those UPA
> bandits are desecrating Polish cemetaries in Lwow where young brave Polish
> scouts fought for Lwow and south eastern lands of Poland.
Persecutory delusions...
However, since you raised this topic, it may be a worthwhile
educational experience for a well known jingo, such as yourself,
to visit some of the desacrated Ukrainian cemetaries and churches
within the bounds of present day Poland.
>
> There was no place for UPA murderers in history, thats why they failed.
But on the contrary, they have achieved their objectives, of which
you are hopelessly ignorant...
> There is no place for Ukraine in Europe unless Lwow cemetaries are rebuilt
> and maintained with Euro standards.
>
> WaRR
Maybe you should re-think that statement...
Why look so far to the East? As a Pole, maybe you should strive
to equal these standards in Poland?
For a start, an official apology and reparations to the Ukrainian
community in Poland for the brutal "ethnic cleansing" inflicted
upon them in 1947 by the so called "Operation Wisla" would be an
appropriate move to achieve those European Community standards...
GHC
WaRR
Danko wrote in message <01be0591$89cf17c0$cef9869f@default>...
Right on....
Regards
WaRR
Wojciech K.
spea...@netcom.ca wrote in message:
>
>
> Maybe you should re-think that statement...
>
> Why look so far to the East? As a Pole, maybe you should strive
> to equal these standards in Poland?
>
> For a start, an official apology and reparations to the Ukrainian
> community in Poland for the brutal "ethnic cleansing" inflicted
> upon them in 1947 by the so called "Operation Wisla" would be an
> appropriate move to achieve those European Community standards...
>
> GHC
Niechze Pan sie nie wyglupia.
Pozostawmy na chwile historie i proponuje Panu
pojechac np.do Brzezan i pogadac z tymi ludzmi.
Tak jak swoj ze swoim.
W dalszym ciagu dysza nienawiscia.
Prosze nie mowic, ze jest Pan Lemkiem, bo moze
Pan nie wrocic.
Ja tam bylem i rozmawialem (w 1991r.)
Pozdrawiam Wojciech K.
spea...@netcom.ca
As I have suggested earlier, "birds of feather flock together"...
GHC
...
spea...@netcom.ca
(quoted text deleted)
> Niechze Pan sie nie wyglupia.
> Pozostawmy na chwile historie i proponuje Panu
> pojechac np.do Brzezan i pogadac z tymi ludzmi.
> Tak jak swoj ze swoim.
> W dalszym ciagu dysza nienawiscia.
> Prosze nie mowic, ze jest Pan Lemkiem, bo moze
> Pan nie wrocic.
> Ja tam bylem i rozmawialem (w 1991r.)
> Pozdrawiam Wojciech K.
Przepraszam, ale gdzie sa Brzezany...?
Czy Pan moze mysli o Berezhanach na terytorium Ukrainy?
Takze, nie jestem pewny o jakich ludziach Pan mowi.
Czy o etnicznych Palakach, lub Ukraincach?
To o czym pisalem dotyczy Polsko-Ukrainskich stosunkow na
terytorium Polski.
GHC
Wojciech K.
spea...@netcom.ca wrote in message
> Przepraszam, ale gdzie sa Brzezany...?
> Czy Pan moze mysli o Berezhanach na terytorium Ukrainy?
>
> Takze, nie jestem pewny o jakich ludziach Pan mowi.
> Czy o etnicznych Palakach, lub Ukraincach?
>
> To o czym pisalem dotyczy Polsko-Ukrainskich stosunkow na
> terytorium Polski.
>
> GHC
Chodzi o Brzezany kolo Tarnopola.Miejsce urodzenia Marszalka Smiglego-Rydza.
Rozmawialem z Ukraincami.Polakow tam nie ma (wyrznieto co do jednego).
To o czym pisze, dotyczy trwajacej do dzis nienawisci do Polakow, czyli o
stosunkach
Polsko-Ukrainskich A.D.1998.
Pozdrawiam Wojciech K.
PS.To, o czym pisze nie dotyczy absolutnie pozostalej ogromnej czesci
Ukrainy, ktorej
mieszkancy sa do Polakow ustosunkowani bardzo przyjaznie.
Zreszta Pan to wie doskonale.
Chcac doprowadzic do zgody, nie nalezy grzebac w przeszlosci - a zastanowic
sie jak to zrobic dzis.Teraz.
WaRR
Wojciech K. wrote in message
<71jbrg$2dgs$1...@newssvr04-int.news.prodigy.com>...
Zastanawiac sie nie trzeba. Pod sad z bandytami z dzisiejszego UPA ktorzy
demoluja polskie cmentarze korzystajac z okazji ze Lwow jest tymczasowo poza
obszarem Polski.
WaRR
spea...@netcom.ca
>
>
> Chodzi o Brzezany kolo Tarnopola.Miejsce urodzenia Marszalka Smiglego-Rydza.
> Rozmawialem z Ukraincami.Polakow tam nie ma (wyrznieto co do jednego).
> To o czym pisze, dotyczy trwajacej do dzis nienawisci do Polakow, czyli o
> stosunkach
> Polsko-Ukrainskich A.D.1998.
Watpie ze to Ukraincy zgladzili Polakow w Berezanach.
Czy ma Pan na to jakies dowody ? Jezeli ktos z Pana
rozmowcow sie do tego przyznal, to prosze oglosic szczegoly...
Natomiast nie watpie ze tam moze dalej trwac nienawisc.
Mozliwie, oni jeszcze pamietaja Pacyfikacje z lat
trzydziestych...
Ale to nie dotyczy Akcji Wisla bo wysiedlania Ukraincow, lub
tak zwana Repatriacja, z ziem ojczystych, po zachodniej stronie
lini Curzona, do UkSSR nastapila w latach 1944-1946, to jest
przed Akcja Wisla.
> Pozdrawiam Wojciech K.
> PS.To, o czym pisze nie dotyczy absolutnie pozostalej ogromnej czesci
> Ukrainy, ktorej
> mieszkancy sa do Polakow ustosunkowani bardzo przyjaznie.
> Zreszta Pan to wie doskonale.
> Chcac doprowadzic do zgody, nie nalezy grzebac w przeszlosci - a zastanowic
> sie jak to zrobic dzis.Teraz.
Sympatyzuje sie z Panem w probie osiagniecia zgody, ale
chce podkreslic ze nawet strusie nie korzystaja z chowania
glowy w piasku. Albowiem mamy doczynienia z doroslymi ludzmi,
moze z wyjatkiem Pana Warra..., zgoda powinna bazowac sie na
zrozumieniu przeszlosci.
GHC
Wojciech K.
spea...@netcom.ca wrote in message :
>...........................
> Sympatyzuje sie z Panem w probie osiagniecia zgody, ale
> chce podkreslic ze nawet strusie nie korzystaja z chowania
> glowy w piasku. Albowiem mamy doczynienia z doroslymi ludzmi,
> moze z wyjatkiem Pana Warra..., zgoda powinna bazowac sie na
> zrozumieniu przeszlosci.
>
> GHC
Wysiedlanie Ukraincow i Lemkow w latach 1944-46 bylo zrobione przez
NKWD.Tak samo wysiedlano Polakow z terenow zagarnietych przez ZSRR
w 1939r.Jeszcze gorzej traktowano ludnosc Kaszubska i Slaska.
Akcja Wisla byla akcja niehumanitarna,ale nie mam zamiaru brac na siebie
odpowiedzialnosci za dzialalnosc wladz rodem i duchem z Moskwy.
Jezeli Pan nie chce chowac glowy w piasek, to prosze odpowiedziec na n/w
pytania:
1.Czy to prawda, ze mordy polskiej ludnosci cywilnej zaczely sie juz na
kilka
miesiecy przed wybuchem wojny?
2.Czy to prawda, ze powracajacych do domow zolnierzy WP mordowano
o krok od ich rodzinnego domu?
3.Czy to prawda, ze UPA i inne organizacje militarne byly wyekwipowane
w mundury,zywnosc,bron przez Niemcow?
4.Czy to prawda, ze Stefan Bandera odbywal wyrok w polskim wiezieniu
za mord na ministrze spraw wewnetrznych - Pierackim.
5.Czy to prawda, ze w latach 1942-43 zostalo wymordowanych w najbardziej
okrutny sposob 200 000 Polakow i Polskich Zydow?
6.Czy slyszal Pan o dniu 11 lipca 1943r - dniu w ktorym cala Ukraina
Zachodnia
stala w ogniu i krwi?
7.Czy slyszal Pan o SS Galizien i SS Nachtigal?
8.Kto zamordowal polskich profesorow ze Lwowa?
9.Moze Pan mi wyjasni dlaczego Ukaincy Wschodni nazywaja Ukraincow
Zachodnich
rezunami?
10.Jaka byla rola Ukraincow w pacyfikacji Powstania Warszawskiego?
Sadze, ze moze inni dorzuca jeszcze kilka pytan do czlowieka, ktory nie chce
chowac glowy w piasek.
Pozdrawiam Wojciech K.
Jerzy Pankiewicz
: Regiment of the Polish Peoples Army, under the command of
So the author doesn't know who formed the "Polish" Army
and who controlled it. The same "Polish" army murdered
ethnic Poles.
: *[Mikolaj Siwicki, Dzieje Konfliktow Polsko-Ukrainskich, Tom 3,
: Nakladem autora, Warszawa 1994, 1-st ed., Dokument 65, W Zawadce
: Morochowskiej, pp. 317-319, ISBN 83-900779-2-2]
Poland is free country, everyone can publish everything.
When a Pole living in Ukraine will publish his opinion
about UPA?
Jerzy Pankiewicz
Jerzy Pankiewicz
: Watpie ze to Ukraincy zgladzili Polakow w Berezanach.
Oczywiscie Ukrainiec nie moze zrobic nic zlego, jest nadczlowiekiem.
Nawet kiedy morduje innego Ukrainca za pomoc POlakom.
Zwrot 'Rezat Lachiw' wymyslila polska propaganda.
Polacy podrzucili na Ukraine tysiace szkieletow
ze sladami ciosow siekiera.
Ach ci Polacy... Ostatnio przebrani za Ukraincow
niszcza Cmentarz wojskowy we Lwowie,
zeby udowodnic Europie, ze Ukraincy to dzikusy.
Jerzy Pankiewicz
Jerzy Pankiewicz
: Wysiedlanie Ukraincow i Lemkow w latach 1944-46 bylo zrobione przez
: NKWD.
Nie calkiem. Przedwojenny gen. Mosor tez tam sie krecil.
: 3.Czy to prawda, ze UPA i inne organizacje militarne byly wyekwipowane
: w mundury,zywnosc,bron przez Niemcow?
To nie calkiem tak. Bron od Niemcow bralo
takze AK i polska policja.
Kazda ze stron dobiera tendencyjnie
dane i okresy.
: 5.Czy to prawda, ze w latach 1942-43 zostalo wymordowanych w najbardziej
: okrutny sposob 200 000 Polakow i Polskich Zydow?
Raczej mniej niz 100 000. Zawyzanie liczby ofiar
jest niepowazne.
: 7.Czy slyszal Pan o SS Galizien i SS Nachtigal?
A slyszal Pan o istriebitielnych batalionach
NKWD, wysylanych przeciw Ukraincom?
: 8.Kto zamordowal polskich profesorow ze Lwowa?
Raczej Niemcy. Ukraincy przygotowali
listy.
: 9.Moze Pan mi wyjasni dlaczego Ukaincy Wschodni nazywaja Ukraincow
: Zachodnich
: rezunami?
: 10.Jaka byla rola Ukraincow w pacyfikacji Powstania Warszawskiego?
Rzadna. W Warszawie byla armia Kaminskiego zlozona
glownie z Rosjan. Kaminski byl pol-Polakiem, pol-Ukraincem
urodzonym chyba w Poznaniu.
Jerzy Pankiewicz
Jerzy Pankiewicz
: Zastanawiac sie nie trzeba. Pod sad z bandytami z dzisiejszego UPA ktorzy
: demoluja polskie cmentarze korzystajac z okazji ze Lwow jest tymczasowo poza
: obszarem Polski.
Akurat to nie UPA demoluje cmentarz.
JP
fire...@my-dejanews.com
Amazon <ama...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>
> WaRR wrote:
>
> [skip]
>
> You poor confused fellow, what propaganda service did you say you
> were working for?
>
> The goals of the UPA have now finally been realized with the collapse of
> the Evil Empire, what the UPA called the "Prison House of Nations".
>
> Your attempt to smear them indicates that you are an apologist for that
> former Evil Empire which destroyed millions of innocent men, women and
> children on a scale only comparable to that of the Nazis.
>
> You are one vile and disgusting individual.
>
I'd say that many "UPA bandits" were vile and disgusting individuals. By the
same token, all NKVD police and their controllers were vile and disgusting
individual. Let's face it: in the 500 year history of our region, there
weren't any organized forces which you could put squarely on the side of the
good. That is why Ukraine has such a hard time now dealing with its past.
Thankfully, not many Ukrainians have such a limited view as Amazon or WaRR (or
whoever).
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
fire...@my-dejanews.com
"WaRR" <PaTr...@OjczYzNa.CoM> wrote:
>
> spea...@netcom.ca wrote in message <363C13...@netcom.ca>...
> >GRycar wrote:
> >>
> >> Warr;
> >>
> >> You are an Ass.
> >>
> >> The truth is that UPA fought honorably without degenerating to the
> bestialities
> >> of their enemies.
> >>
> >> Needless to say, against the army of slaves and their masters, UPA did
> >> acomplish its goals and did put a stop to the bestialities perpetuated in
> >> Western Ukraine Russians.
> >>
> >> You Asshole, are not a Ukrainian but instead a Soviet liar and
> prevaricator.
> >>
> >> Ukrainians unlike you, respect the truth and do honor their heroes.
> >>
> >> That you come from a human hell that had no heroes, no honesty and no
> freedom
> >> is self appearant.
> >>
> >> Go spread your prevarications somplace else.
> >>
> >> Your legacy is lying, terror and death.
> >>
> >> Do drop death.
> >>
> >> George R.
> >
> >
> >> GHC
>
> that UPA was famous for its extensive use of torture, expamples were
> provided before, mass executions of innocent civilians in its vicious
> bandits are desecrating Polish cemetaries in Lwow where young brave Polish
> scouts fought for Lwow and south eastern lands of Poland.
>
> and maintained with Euro standards.
>
> WaRR
>
>
WaRR, you seem to be confused. I doubt that the Ukrainian people wanted some
Poles fighting for Lviv (plz note the spelling). As reprehensible as I find
the desecration of Polish cemeteries (note the spelling), I don't believe
that with the current lack of funds Ukraine should care about maintaining
some invaders' burial sites in pristine order. You, WaRR, send us money, and
we will spend it on your cemeteries. Deal?
fire...@my-dejanews.com
"Danko" <t...@again.com> wrote:
> Dear Sir,
>
> After trying to discuss issues with ideologically blinded people like
> Amazon and GeorgeR I am getting more and more convinced in the principle
> once formulated by Rey in his book "Intelligent Eye":
>
> "People do not only believe what they see, but they only can see what they
> believe in."
>
> Brutality of both Bolsheviks and Ukrainian Nationalists is well known and
> well documented, however their followers and descendants will forever see
> only the sins and crimes of the other side. Arguing with them is useless.
> It does not really matter what kind of cretinism a person partakes in, the
> question is to eliminate cretinism itself.
>
> As for the UPA (and Bolsheviks for that matter) what was done was done, it
> cannot be changed, we all have to learn our lessons and get on with our
> lives.
>
> Danko
You are right, but I would also add Poles to the mix. Anyway, it's time to
stop living in the past and get on with building a normal country. Economic
prosperity will stop these silly arguments because people whose basic needs
are satisfied tend to be more logical and follow reason instead of blind,
fanatical faith. (With the exception of the Uke diaspore -- I don't
understand how people living in a developed society can be so obnoxiously
fanatical -- this phenomenon is probably related to Western skinheads and
KKK).
Slawomir Popiel
Jerzy Pankiewicz wrote in message <71kbi1$51h$3...@sun1000.pwr.wroc.pl>...[...]
>: 3.Czy to prawda, ze UPA i inne organizacje militarne byly wyekwipowane
>: w mundury,zywnosc,bron przez Niemcow?
>To nie calkiem tak. Bron od Niemcow bralo
>takze AK i polska policja.
>Kazda ze stron dobiera tendencyjnie
>dane i okresy.
[...]
UPA byla sila zbrojna OUN (Oboz Ukrainskich Nacjonalistow) i podlegala
wahaniom i podzialom politycznym tak jak i partia polityczna. O ile OUN nie
przyjal sugestii niemieckich, aby na atak na Polske w 1939 roku odpowiedziec
ukrainskim powstaniem antypolskim, to jednak dochodzilo do masowych dywersji
na szczeblu lokalnym (moze to byc jeszcze jednym dowodem na to, ze w
warunkach konspiracyjnych rozkazy "gory" moga sie sprowadzic do "poboznych
zyczen"). OUN wiazala swoje nadzieje na uzyskanie niepodleglosci z Niemcami,
tym niemniej rozne ugrupowania roznie widzialy owa realizacje. OUN-M (od
nazwiska przywodcy, Melnyka) widzial mozliwosc uzyskania znacznych koncesji
od Niemcow na drodze "politykowania" i wspolpracy. Oni wlasnie tworzyli
Waffen SS Galizien. OUN-B (od Bandery) proklamowal w czerwcu 1941 powstanie
Niepodleglej Ukrainy, za co Bandera zostal aresztowany przez Niemcow i
osadzony w obozie Sachsenhausen.
UPA byla poczatkowo sila zbrojna calego OUN (bulbowcy), potem pojawily sie
oddzialy UPA melnykowcow i banderowcow. Probowano zjednoczyc UPA, ale
bezskutecznie. W 1943 roku banderowcy "zjednoczyli" UPA na sile, rozbrajajac
inne oddzialy UPA i wcielajac zolnierzy do swoich szeregow. Banderowcy
zdecydowali sie na ogloszenie wojny przeciwko wszystkim swoim wrogom, tzn.
przeciw Sowietom, Niemcom i Polsce. Do 1943 OUN i UPA byly organizacjami o
zabarwieniu faszystowskim. W 1943 przywodztwo OUN i UPA objal Szuchewycz,
pod ktorego wplywem OUN wykreslila ze swojego programu faszystowskie
zalozenia wprowadzajac zasady demokratyczne.
Waffen SS Galizien byla uzbrojona i umundurowana przez Niemcow. Malo znanym
elementem okupacji niemieckiej na kresach jest fakt uzbrajania przez Niemcow
polskich organizacji samoobrony w karabiny. Samoobrona miala byc obrona
ludnosci polskiej na kresach przed agresja ukrainska i nie wchodzila w sklad
jakich kolwiek formacji.
To by bylo tyle, co wiem na tematy w pytaniach pana Wojtka.
Pozdrawiam,
Slawomir Popiel
New Jersey
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Senate/7847/
http://home.sprynet.com/sprynet/spopiel/
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Troy/7404/
noone
fire...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
Interesting.. Ukrainian 'diaspora' were the ones who either actively opposed
russian occupation or spoke out against it and had to flee their homeland as
result. I suppose you are disappointed they did not remain to be slaughtered by
the russians; for this you brand them fanatics ??
Setting aside for a moment your questionable claim that the UPA commited
atrocities, remember that the the UPA was struggling to FREE their country from
the russians who OCCUPIED it.
As far as forgetting the past goes, it would help if russia were to at LEAST
acknowledge atrocities it committed in the countries it occupied, instead of
blaming all on a mythical race called the soviets.
AND make no mistake, in the west there is no confusion, the words russian and
soviet union were interchangable.
TRUTCHI
demonstrates that you can't distinguish between good and evil. You are
comparing the occupier and his forces of control to an entity that fought for
Ukrainian independence. That is the equivalent of saying that America's
Colonial Army was wrong in fighting for Americ'as independence from Britain. No
army was without it's bad elements, but you are not using two equal forces or
situations for a fair comparison.
Miecz - Sławomir
P. Wojciech K. napisal:
> spea...@netcom.ca wrote in message
>
> > Przepraszam, ale gdzie sa Brzezany...?
> > Czy Pan moze mysli o Berezhanach na terytorium Ukrainy?
> >
> > Takze, nie jestem pewny o jakich ludziach Pan mowi.
> > Czy o etnicznych Palakach, lub Ukraincach?
> >
> > To o czym pisalem dotyczy Polsko-Ukrainskich stosunkow na
> > terytorium Polski.
> >
> > GHC
>
> Chodzi o Brzezany kolo Tarnopola.Miejsce urodzenia Marszalka Smiglego-Rydza.
> Rozmawialem z Ukraincami.Polakow tam nie ma (wyrznieto co do jednego).
> To o czym pisze, dotyczy trwajacej do dzis nienawisci do Polakow, czyli o
> stosunkach
> Polsko-Ukrainskich A.D.1998.
> Pozdrawiam Wojciech K.
> PS.To, o czym pisze nie dotyczy absolutnie pozostalej ogromnej czesci
> Ukrainy, ktorej
> mieszkancy sa do Polakow ustosunkowani bardzo przyjaznie.
> Zreszta Pan to wie doskonale.
> Chcac doprowadzic do zgody, nie nalezy grzebac w przeszlosci - a zastanowic
> sie jak to zrobic dzis.Teraz.
ad P.S. Rada "dobrego wujka" bylaby dobra, gdyby byla
dobra, ale prawda jest taka, ze nie mozna budowac zgody
z Rusinami Wschodniomalopolskimi, dopoki oni nie
przestana holdowac tej karcie swojej niedawnej historii,
ktora krwawa i haniebna plama odciska sie na naszych
wzajemnych stosunkach z nimi.
Zreszta malo szacunku zywie do szczepu, ktory wyrzeka sie
swojej nazwy plemiennej, zastepujac ja nowa nazwa, ktora
z jego dziejami ma zwiazek wylacznie geograficzny.
--
//
O<<<<M I E C Z>>>>>>>>>>>>
\\
T.N.Roman
,,Jestem Polakiem - to słowo w głębszem
rozumieniu wiele znaczy.
Roman Dmowski, ,,MYŚLI NOWOCZESNEGO POLAKA
{}{)
(}{)
\
...,,Polska polityka za polskie pieniądze ...
Wincenty Witos
mailto:polr...@ix.netcom.com
http://www.netcom.com/~polradko/
Miecz - Sławomir
GHC <spea...@netcom.ca> wrote:
> WaRR wrote:
> >
> > spea...@netcom.ca wrote in message <363C13...@netcom.ca>...
> > >GRycar wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Warr;
> > >>
> > >> You are an Ass.
> > >>
> > >> The truth is that UPA fought honorably without degenerating to the bestialities
> > >> of their enemies.
> > >>
> > >> Needless to say, against the army of slaves and their masters, UPA did
> > >> acomplish its goals and did put a stop to the bestialities perpetuated in
> > >> Western Ukraine Russians.
> > >>
> > >> You Asshole, are not a Ukrainian but instead a Soviet liar and prevaricator.
> > >>
> > >> Ukrainians unlike you, respect the truth and do honor their heroes.
> > >>
> > >> That you come from a human hell that had no heroes, no honesty and no freedom
> > >> is self appearant.
> > >>
> > >> Go spread your prevarications somplace else.
> > >>
> > >> Your legacy is lying, terror and death.
> > >>
> > >> Do drop death.
> > >>
> > >> George R.
> > >
> > >
> > >> GHC
> >
> > Why didnt you quote my previous post ? What are you affraid of ?
>
>
> Because Mr. Rycar's reply is accurate, unlike your fabrication.
Fabrication ? Are you kidding ?
>
>
> By the way, "why didn't you quote my previuos post ? What are
> you afraid of ?"...
>
>
>
>
> > We all know
>
> Are you referring to your various personalities...?
No way ! He refers to my person and
I am sure that others Poles would agree
with him as well !!!
>
>
>
> > that UPA was famous for its extensive use of torture, expamples were
> > provided before, mass executions of innocent civilians in its vicious
> > campaign against Polish and Ukrainian people.
>
> I am sure that this is what you have been taught at school.
> However, the Iron Curtain has fallen, the USSR has collapsed,
> the PPR has transformed itself into III Rzeczpospolita, and
> the truth has, hopefully, prevailed.
Do you mean that members of the present government
of so called Ukraine with capital in Kijow have never
been members of Communist Party of the Soviet Union....;-)))?????
>
>
> Your nonsense even exceeds the staple lies from "Ogniomistrz
> Kalen"...
I am very proud of all actions that Polish Army took
during fights with rezuns (bandits) as a result
of Action "Wisla", that saved many innocent
Polish lives as well as Ruthenian and I am especially
proud of officer of the II-nd Republic, General Stefan
Mossor who was a chief commander of this Action
and his soldiers, many of them former members of
Armia Krajowa (Home Army). I am proud that we Poles
showed that we are civilized nation unlike Ruthenians,
that we do not fight with civilians in manner of Ruthenian's
followers of Doncov's chauvinist, ultaracist and homicidal
ukrainian ideology. What was our big mistake it was that
Ruthenian civilians were not deported to Soviet Union
and instead they were relocated inside Poland.
>
>
> > Now bastards of those UPA
> > bandits are desecrating Polish cemetaries in Lwow where young brave Polish
> > scouts fought for Lwow and south eastern lands of Poland.
>
> Persecutory delusions...
>
> However, since you raised this topic, it may be a worthwhile
> educational experience for a well known jingo, such as yourself,
> to visit some of the desacrated Ukrainian cemetaries and churches
> within the bounds of present day Poland.
There is so large Ruthenian worldwide diaspora
therefore why it did not take appropriate care about
its cemeteries and now we are telling about one
Polish cemetery in Lwow where are buried Poles
who fought with regular army but not civilians
and we do not raise question about other desecrated
cemeteries in borders of present so called Ukraine.
>
>
> >
> > There was no place for UPA murderers in history, thats why they failed.
>
> But on the contrary, they have achieved their objectives, of which
> you are hopelessly ignorant...
This is not achievement of UPA, but traitors inside
Russia that were working for New World Order
and of course such famous both Ruthenian patriots
and commies as comrade Chrushtschev who even
wanted to take away part of Poland and enlarge
borders of then Soviet Ukraine when he was
a Kremlin ruler.
>
>
>
> > There is no place for Ukraine in Europe unless Lwow cemetaries are rebuilt
> > and maintained with Euro standards.
> >
> > WaRR
>
> Maybe you should re-think that statement...
>
> Why look so far to the East? As a Pole, maybe you should strive
> to equal these standards in Poland?
>
> For a start, an official apology and reparations to the Ukrainian
> community in Poland for the brutal "ethnic cleansing" inflicted
> upon them in 1947 by the so called "Operation Wisla" would be an
> appropriate move to achieve those European Community standards...
Action "Wisla" was a humanitarian action taken
by Polish Army to save life of Poles living in places
where so called Ukrainian Uprising Army (UPA)
operated from the same fate that was met by Poles
in Eastern Little Poland during WW II when even
Germans sometimes were protecting them from
the bloody hands of their Ruthenian neighbors.
Action "Wisla" could not be compared in any
possible way with terrorism of UPA aimed against
civilians and Action "Wisla" was totally justified.
I do not want to tell that all Western Ruthenians
are bad people because there are quiet noble
examples among them such as historian
Mr. Victor Polischuk Ph.D. for example.
>
>
> GHC
Long live Polish Lwow !
--
//
O<<<<M I E C Z>>>>>>>>>>>>
\\
T.N.Roman
...``Jestem Polakiem - wiec mam obowiazki polskie"
Roman Dmowski, "MYSLI NOWOCZESNEGO POLAKA"
...............``I am a Pole, thus I have Polish responsibilities"...
Roman Dmowski, "Thoughts of A Modern Pole"
mailto:polr...@ix.netcom.com
http://www.netcom.com/~polradko/
Miecz - Sławomir
fire...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> In article <R7W_1.2421$Bi1.26...@clnws01.we.mediaone.net>,
> "WaRR" <PaTr...@OjczYzNa.CoM> wrote:
> >
> > spea...@netcom.ca wrote in message <363C13...@netcom.ca>...
> > >GRycar wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Warr;
> > >>
> > >> You are an Ass.
> > >>
> > >> The truth is that UPA fought honorably without degenerating to the
> > >> bestialities of their enemies.
> > >>
> > >> (...).
> > >>
> > >> Go spread your prevarications somplace else.
> > >>
> > >> Your legacy is lying, terror and death.
> > >>
> > >> Do drop death.
> > >>
> > >> George R.
> > >
> > >
> > >> GHC
> >
> > Why didnt you quote my previous post ? What are you affraid of ? We all know
> > that UPA was famous for its extensive use of torture, expamples were
> > provided before, mass executions of innocent civilians in its vicious
> > campaign against Polish and Ukrainian people. Now bastards of those UPA
> > bandits are desecrating Polish cemetaries in Lwow where young brave Polish
> > scouts fought for Lwow and south eastern lands of Poland.
> >
> > There was no place for UPA murderers in history, thats why they failed.
> > There is no place for Ukraine in Europe unless Lwow cemetaries are rebuilt
> > and maintained with Euro standards.
> >
> > WaRR
> >
> >
>
> WaRR, you seem to be confused. I doubt that the Ukrainian people wanted some
> Poles fighting for Lviv (plz note the spelling). As reprehensible as I find
> the desecration of Polish cemeteries (note the spelling), I don't believe
> that with the current lack of funds Ukraine should care about maintaining
> some invaders' burial sites in pristine order. You, WaRR, send us money, and
> we will spend it on your cemeteries. Deal?
It could be a true if it was not a false. Funds for rebuilding
of Polish cemetery of defenders of Polish Lwow are almost
solely Polish and Polish Company Energopol has been
engaged in rebuilding our military cemetery in city of Lwow
for many, many years.
>
Long live Polish Lwow !
--
//
O<<<<M I E C Z>>>>>>>>>>>>
\\
T.N.Roman
...``Jestem Polakiem - wiec mam obowiazki polskie"
Roman Dmowski, "MYSLI NOWOCZESNEGO POLAKA"
................``I am a Pole, thus I have Polish responsibilities"...
Miecz - Sławomir
P. Wojciech K. napisal:
> spea...@netcom.ca wrote in message :
> >...........................
> > Sympatyzuje sie z Panem w probie osiagniecia zgody, ale
> > chce podkreslic ze nawet strusie nie korzystaja z chowania
> > glowy w piasku. Albowiem mamy doczynienia z doroslymi ludzmi,
> > moze z wyjatkiem Pana Warra..., zgoda powinna bazowac sie na
> > zrozumieniu przeszlosci.
> >
> > GHC
>
> Wysiedlanie Ukraincow i Lemkow w latach 1944-46 bylo zrobione przez
> NKWD.
Za wysiedlenie Rusinow, Lemkow i Bojkow w czasie akcji
"Wisla" my Polacy ponosimy wylaczna odpowiedzialnosc
i nie widze najmniejszego powodu, zebysmy mieli uchylac sie
od tej odpowiedzialnosci i ta odpowiedzialnosc zrzucac
na NKWD. Akcja "Wisla" dowodzil przedwojenny oficer,
general Stefan Mossor. W koncu nie rznelismy tej ludnosci,
ktora stanowila baze dla rezunow, lecz wybralismy najlepsze
rozwiazanie z dostepnych czyli przesiedlenie ludnosci,
ktora stanowila oparcie dla rezunstwa.
> Tak samo wysiedlano Polakow z terenow zagarnietych przez ZSRR
> w 1939r.Jeszcze gorzej traktowano ludnosc Kaszubska i Slaska.
> Akcja Wisla byla akcja niehumanitarna,ale nie mam zamiaru brac na siebie
> odpowiedzialnosci za dzialalnosc wladz rodem i duchem z Moskwy.
Ma Pan racje, ze wcale Rusinow Wschodniomalopolskich
nie spotkala wielka krzywda porownujac losy innych, ale
powtarzasz Pan zaslyszane slogany, kiedy odbierasz Akcji
"Wisla" jej wysoce humanitarny charakter, jakim bylo ratowanie
Polakow przed wyrznieciem przez rezunow z UPA, ktorzy
w slepym amoku nienawisci chcieli budowac swoje panstwo
na krwi bratniego narodu slowianskiego, kiedy i tak nie mieli
najmniejszych szans na urzeczywistnienie swoich oblednych
planow. Ponadto ich pretensje do naszej Ziemi Polskiej sa
ahistoryczne, bo opieraja sie na osadnictwie, ktore zesmy
tolerowali i stad ta pretensja, ze "Ukraina do Sanu, a dzisiaj
nawet do Wisly", a jutro pewnie "do Odry, do Wroclawia".
> Jezeli Pan nie chce chowac glowy w piasek, to prosze odpowiedziec na n/w
> pytania:
> (pytania kierowane nie pod moim adresem pominiete)
> Sadze, ze moze inni dorzuca jeszcze kilka pytan do czlowieka, ktory nie chce
> chowac glowy w piasek.
Dorzuce i swoje:
11. Za czyje pieniadze oraz z czyjej faktycznej i bezposredniej
inicjatywy bierze swoje korzenie wspolczesny "ukrainizm" ?
>
>
> Pozdrawiam Wojciech K.
Wzajemnie,
--
//
O<<<<M I E C Z>>>>>>>>>>>>
\\
T.N.Roman
,,Jestem Polakiem - to słowo w głębszem
GRycar
What do you know about the methods employed by UPA in their war against evil?
If you did you could not possibly spout your shameless stupidities.
What is most upsetting to UPA's enemies is precisely the means that they
employed and their success in fighting their enemies.
That you are a moron and a congenital prevaricator, and as such ill equiped to
respect actuality that is contrary to the stupidities inculcated into your head
by the purveyors of evil is indeed made lucid by your posts.
However, The issue was always the means employed and the example set for future
generations, Meathead.
My father had some great freinds, in other words, men worthy of our respect.
One of them was Micheal Cheresnowsky the sculptor.
Mr. Chesrnowsky was a member of OYN and UPA. He took part in some of the major
actions of UPA against both the Nazis and their moral twins, the Russian
communists.
In my conversations with him I learned much. The one thing that never left me
was his comment about the moral fiber of his brothers in arms and thier courage
and virtue. It was he who clatrified what it was that they fought for and why.
Chersnowsky's comments were alway simply and concomitantly clear.
He told me that the war was for a better life and a belief that this better
life was only attainable in freedom and not in slavery. The guide was
Shevchenko.
More important, he told me that in all the raids into the West, in all the
thousands of men who engaged in them, there was not one criminal act, not one
attrocity and not one blemish upon his brothers to deminish the value and the
example of their war for the future generations.
Truth, meathead, makes no differance to you - no is terrible for you because it
bears witness to your povery and decrepidness.
George R.
Danko
Most of the Ukrainian Diaspora (we are talking over 99%) comprise of
descendants of ECONOMIC migrants rather then political ones.
Secondly, as I already pointed out, it is not enough to fight for a good
cause one must also employ good means.
Danko
Danko
Dear George,
If your source of knowledge is an UPA member, then you must ask yourself
whether or not this is an OBJECTIVE source. I can bet that people whose
only source of knowledge about the Second World War would be Hebbels might
have a huge respect for Nazis.
As for Shevtchenko, I cannot accept an ideology which calls to shed
anybody's blood (remember his Testament "i vrazjoju zloju krovju zemlju
okropite"). He was sad and angry peasant and will remain as such to me.
My grandfather took active participation in fighting the UPA in the West of
Ukraine, however, I do not believe, that his actions were either honorable
or just, but on the other hand I cannot say anything good about his
opponents for the very same reason of the methods employed.
Danko
Leszek Andrzej Kleczkowski
: Ma Pan racje, ze wcale Rusinow Wschodniomalopolskich
: nie spotkala wielka krzywda porownujac losy innych, ale
: powtarzasz Pan zaslyszane slogany, kiedy odbierasz Akcji
: "Wisla" jej wysoce humanitarny charakter, jakim bylo ratowanie
: Polakow przed wyrznieciem przez rezunow z UPA, ktorzy
: w slepym amoku nienawisci chcieli budowac swoje panstwo
: na krwi bratniego narodu slowianskiego, kiedy i tak nie mieli
: najmniejszych szans na urzeczywistnienie swoich oblednych
: planow.
To dlatego, tusze, humaniste gen. "Waltera" Swierczewskiego ubito?
Leszek
---
Smart questions to stupid answers
spea...@netcom.ca
>
> spea...@netcom.ca wrote in message :
> >...........................
> > Sympatyzuje sie z Panem w probie osiagniecia zgody, ale
> > chce podkreslic ze nawet strusie nie korzystaja z chowania
> > glowy w piasku. Albowiem mamy doczynienia z doroslymi ludzmi,
> > moze z wyjatkiem Pana Warra..., zgoda powinna bazowac sie na
> > zrozumieniu przeszlosci.
> >
> > GHC
>
> Wysiedlanie Ukraincow i Lemkow w latach 1944-46 bylo zrobione przez
> w 1939r.Jeszcze gorzej traktowano ludnosc Kaszubska i Slaska.
> Akcja Wisla byla akcja niehumanitarna,ale nie mam zamiaru brac na siebie
> odpowiedzialnosci za dzialalnosc wladz rodem i duchem z Moskwy.
> pytania:
> 1.Czy to prawda, ze mordy polskiej ludnosci cywilnej zaczely sie juz na
> kilka
> miesiecy przed wybuchem wojny?
Nie wiem o czym Pan mowi. Prosze wyjasnic...
> 2.Czy to prawda, ze powracajacych do domow zolnierzy WP mordowano
> o krok od ich rodzinnego domu?
Na jakim obszarze? Prawdopodobnie nie mysli Pan o Ukrainie
pod zaborem Radzieckim..., bo zolnierzy WP rozstrzeliwalo
tam NKVD. Pod zaborem Niemieckim, mozliwie robilo to Gestapo
lub SD.
Ciekawe ze Pan taka sprawe poruszyl, bo wiem ze na
Lemkowszczyznie, juz po wojnie, umierali w ten sposob
powracajaci z robot w Niemczech Lemkowie...
> 3.Czy to prawda, ze UPA i inne organizacje militarne byly wyekwipowane
> w mundury,zywnosc,bron przez Niemcow?
Na to pytanie juz akuratnie odpowiedzial Pan Popiel
(Message-ID <71ks9f$q85$1...@juliana.sprynet.com>).
> 4.Czy to prawda, ze Stefan Bandera odbywal wyrok w polskim wiezieniu
> za mord na ministrze spraw wewnetrznych - Pierackim.
Jezeli tak, to nie jako wykonawca atentatu nad ministrem
Pierackim. Czy AK nie wykonywalo zamachow na okupacyjne wladze
Niemieckie...?
> 5.Czy to prawda, ze w latach 1942-43 zostalo wymordowanych w najbardziej
> okrutny sposob 200 000 Polakow i Polskich Zydow?
Nie wiem dokladnej liczby Polskich i Zydowskich poleglych.
Pan Pankiewicz (Message-ID <71kbil$5ih$3...@sun1000.pwr.wroc.pl>)
ocenia liczbe ofiar na okolo 100,000 lub mniej.
Ale, jezeli Pan oskarza Ukrainska strone w mordach Polakow i
Zydow, to chyba zapomina Pan o Niemieckim "Endlosung" i kto
dzierzyl wtedy wladze wykonawcza w Distrikt Galizien...
Watpie ze UPA wtedy dysponowala sto tysiacami kul w swojej
zbrojowni.
> 6.Czy slyszal Pan o dniu 11 lipca 1943r - dniu w ktorym cala Ukraina
> Zachodnia
> stala w ogniu i krwi?
Slysze o tym pierwszy raz, od Pana... Prosze wyjasnic.
> 7.Czy slyszal Pan o SS Galizien i SS Nachtigal?
14-th Waffen-SS was a front-line formation and engaged only
the Soviet Army, the pro-Soviet Slovak insurgents as well as
the communist Yugoslav partizans.
Nachtigal was another front-line formation, of batalion strength
and separate from the Waffen-SS, that saw brief action in the
early stages of the German offensive. It was dissolved by the
Germans after the proclamation of Ukrainian State on June 30,
1941...
> 8.Kto zamordowal polskich profesorow ze Lwowa?
Niemcy.
> 9.Moze Pan mi wyjasni dlaczego Ukaincy Wschodni nazywaja Ukraincow
> Zachodnich
> rezunami?
Wplywy Rosyjskie?
> 10.Jaka byla rola Ukraincow w pacyfikacji Powstania Warszawskiego?
Zadna...
RONA Mizieslawa Kaminskiego byla pochodzenia Rosyjsko-Bialorosyj-
skiego.
>
> Sadze, ze moze inni dorzuca jeszcze kilka pytan do czlowieka, ktory nie chce
> chowac glowy w piasek.
Ale prosze pytac...
Odpowie kiedy bede mogl.
GHC
Jerzy Pankiewicz
: Poles fighting for Lviv (plz note the spelling). As reprehensible as I find
: the desecration of Polish cemeteries (note the spelling), I don't believe
: that with the current lack of funds Ukraine should care about maintaining
: some invaders' burial sites in pristine order. You, WaRR, send us money, and
: we will spend it on your cemeteries. Deal?
A radical Ukrainian organisation devastated
a memorial table at the military cemetery
in Lviv. The idiots registered everything
on video...
Jerzy Pankiewicz
Jerzy Pankiewicz
: atrocities, remember that the the UPA was struggling to FREE their country from
: the russians who OCCUPIED it.
UPA murdered Poles during WWII. At least 40 000,
maybe even 100 000. They murdered with axes
and saws, burned alive.
'Questioanble, Russians'.
Get some reading.
Jerzy Pankiewicz
Jerzy Pankiewicz
: Za wysiedlenie Rusinow, Lemkow i Bojkow w czasie akcji
: "Wisla" my Polacy ponosimy wylaczna odpowiedzialnosc
Tzn. 'my Miecze' albo 'my komunisci'.
My Polacy nie popieralismy komuny
i akcji "Wisla". Polski senat "Wisle"
potepil, bo w nim malo endekow zasiadalo.
JP
Jerzy Pankiewicz
: Watpie ze UPA wtedy dysponowala sto tysiacami kul w swojej
: zbrojowni.
Wyjatkowo trafil Pan w srodek tarczy.
Ofiary mordowano siekierami lub przecinano
pila, podpalano.
: Niemcy.
A kto zrobil liste? Ukraincy z Krakowa...
Byc moze niektorym sie nalezalo, Bartel byl
w Moskwie i to nie w sprawach naukowych.
Ale nie sadze, zeby w Krakowie znano szczegoly.
Poadano nazwisak wybitnych Polakow.
rzeczywiscie, po co mordowac sprzataczki,
jezeli mozna wybitnych ludzi?
Jerzy Pankiewicz
noone
Danko wrote:
setting aside argument over your figure of 'over 99%...'
(what the hell is that ?? 100% ??)
...would this include those fleeing the russian created famine of the 30's
??
...would this include those fleeing the roundups of post WWII Ukraine ??
...would this include those fleeing the terror of the cold war secret police
??
I believe your confused. Economic migrants would be more like those who are
leaving, or have already left todays russia. Those who lack the character to
stay and rebuild, those who wail and moan over a lost empire from the safety
of the countries they used to call enemy. You know, like those who post here
attacking Ukraine, Ukrainians; spreading lies and twisted truths simply
because Ukraine has reclaimed its independence.
Your claim of UPA misconduct is based on russian sources. That would be less
reliable than the cold war Pravda as a source of information.
Jerzy Pankiewicz
: Danko;
: What do you know about the methods employed by UPA in their war against evil?
E.g. against Polish children...
Or against those Ukrainians who helped Poles or
had Polish wives.
UPA fought against Nazis and Commies
but also did many nasty things .
Now when there is an independent
Ukrainian state it is the time
to seek the truth.
Jerzy Pankiewicz
Miecz - Sławomir
P. Jerzy Pankiewicz napisal:
> In soc.culture.polish Miecz - Sławomir <Kra...@Narodowiec.org> wrote:
>
> : Za wysiedlenie Rusinow, Lemkow i Bojkow w czasie akcji
> : "Wisla" my Polacy ponosimy wylaczna odpowiedzialnosc
>
> Tzn. 'my Miecze' albo 'my komunisci'.
W tym miejscu pasuje slabsza
alternatywa -- _lub_.
> My Polacy nie popieralismy komuny
> i akcji "Wisla".
Mam rozumiec, ze tacy 'Polacy', jak Pan
popierali zupelna obojetnosc, pozwalajaca
kontynuowac UPA to, co wczesniej
zaczela na kresach Kresow ? Od
akcji przeprowadzonej pod dowodztwem
oficera II R.P. gen. Stefana Mossora
z udzialem wielu b. zolnierzy AK nie
mam najmniejszego zamiaru odcinac sie !
Jestem dumny z tego, ze kwestia ukrainska
zostala, przez nas Polakow rozwiazana
w sposob najbardziej cywilizowany
z tych, jakie mozna bylo wybrac w owczesnym
polozeniu.
> Polski senat "Wisle" potepil, bo
> w nim malo endekow zasiadalo.
Dmowski przed wojna potepil akcje
sanacji wymierzone przeciwko
Rusinom, ale na pewno nikt rozsadny
nie bedzie potapial akcji majacej na
celu ochrone zycia Polakow. To
potepienie senatu bedzie po latach
tyle warte, co dzisiaj jest warta
konstytucja kwietniowa i przeprosiny
b. prezydenta w jednym z krajow
srodziemnomorskich.
>
>
> JP
Jerzy Pankiewicz
Mieczu, niewiedza nie jest zadnym wyjasnieniem.
Najpierw sie naucz historii Polski,
potem pisz.
UPA w granicach PRL. Rzeczywiscie.
Dzielny mlody Jaruzelski lapiacy ukrainskie kury.
Endecja i PPR. Milosc poza grob.
JP
super trooper
[...]
> Zreszta malo szacunku zywie do szczepu, ktory wyrzeka sie
> swojej nazwy plemiennej, zastepujac ja nowa nazwa, ktora
> z jego dziejami ma zwiazek wylacznie geograficzny.
[...]
:-( To Polacy, Czesi, Chorwaci etc. tez kiedys wyrzekli
sie swojej nazwy plemiennej. Jaka szkoda.
super trooper
super trooper
{...]
> For a start, an official apology and reparations to the Ukrainian
> community in Poland for the brutal "ethnic cleansing" inflicted
> upon them in 1947 by the so called "Operation Wisla" would be an
> appropriate move to achieve those European Community standards...
But what about an oficial apology and reparations to the Polish
community in Lwow and other parts of Ukraine for the brutal
"ethnic cleansing" inflicted upon them during and after WWII?
It think it would be equally, or eve more than, appropriate
do meet European Community Standards. How about that?
super trooper
super trooper
[...]
>
> To o czym pisalem dotyczy Polsko-Ukrainskich stosunkow na
> terytorium Polski.
>
Dlaczego nie pisac o tych na terytorium obecnej Ukrainy,
dawniej nalezacych do Polski?
super trooper
spea...@netcom.ca
>
> In soc.culture.polish spea...@netcom.ca wrote:
> : Regiment of the Polish Peoples Army, under the command of
>
> So the author doesn't know who formed the "Polish" Army
> and who controlled it. The same "Polish" army murdered
> ethnic Poles.
>
> : *[Mikolaj Siwicki, Dzieje Konfliktow Polsko-Ukrainskich, Tom 3,
> : Nakladem autora, Warszawa 1994, 1-st ed., Dokument 65, W Zawadce
> : Morochowskiej, pp. 317-319, ISBN 83-900779-2-2]
>
> Poland is free country, everyone can publish everything.
> When a Pole living in Ukraine will publish his opinion
> about UPA?
>
> Jerzy Pankiewicz
Actually, on closer inspection of the covers of Mikolaj
Siwicki's book, I find on page 440 a brief note in Ukrainian
that reads:
Viddrukovano z diapozytiv
zamovnyka
M.P.P., "Slovo" m. Lutsk
It appears, therefor, that Mr. Siwicki did not publish it
in Warsaw, where the book may have been written, but in the
city of Lutsk, Ukraine.
Is it possible that he encountered some insurmountable
problem to publish his book in Poland...?
GHC
spea...@netcom.ca
Czekalem na Pana zeby to zrobil...
GHC
spea...@netcom.ca
Czy moze Pan odpowiedziec jak nazywala sie owa operacja?
Operacja Wisla obyla sie na rozkaz Rzadu PRL.
W latach 1944-46, nastapila tak zwana "dobrowolna" repatriacja
Ukraincow z Polski do USRR, w wymiane za rowniez "dobrowolne"
przesiedlenie Polakow z USRR do Polski. Ten mit dobrowolnosci
byl gwarantowany ukladem z 9/9/44 zawartym miedzy Polskim
Komitetem Wyzwolenia Narodowego (PKWN) i rzadem USRR.
GHC
spea...@netcom.ca
>
> spea...@netcom.ca wrote:
> {...]
>
> > For a start, an official apology and reparations to the Ukrainian
> > community in Poland for the brutal "ethnic cleansing" inflicted
> > upon them in 1947 by the so called "Operation Wisla" would be an
> > appropriate move to achieve those European Community standards...
>
> But what about an oficial apology and reparations to the Polish
> community in Lwow and other parts of Ukraine for the brutal
> "ethnic cleansing" inflicted upon them during and after WWII?
> It think it would be equally, or eve more than, appropriate
> do meet European Community Standards. How about that?
>
> super trooper
And what was the official name of this reputed operation?
Operation "Vistula" took place on command from the Government
of the Polish Peoples Republic.
Between 1944 and 1946, there took place a so-called
"voluntary" repatriation of Ukrainians from Poland to UkSSR,
in return for the equally "voluntary" deportation of Poles
from UkSSR to Poland. This myth of freewill was guaranteed
by the pact of 9/9/44 concluded between the Polish Committee
of National Liberation (PKWN) and the government of UkSSR.
GHC
Ostap Bender
> Jezeli Pan nie chce chowac glowy w piasek, to prosze odpowiedziec na n/w
> pytania:
> [...]
> Sadze, ze moze inni dorzuca jeszcze kilka pytan do czlowieka, ktory nie chce
> chowac glowy w piasek.
To wszystko prawda.
Ale czy to waz tak ysoka cena za niepodlegla Ukraine, z ktora mamy bardzo
dobre stosunki?
---
O.Bender
Vancouver, 1998
spea...@netcom.ca
To do something like this is immoral and idiotic.
To record it on video, and then to release the tapes
is beyond idiocy. It is suicidal, or subversive...
Which organization is reputed to have done it?
This has parallels to the willful desacration of Ukrainian
cemetaries in Poland, and the recent spraypainting of anti-
Ukrainian slogans on the Ukrainian church in Przemysl...
GHC
fire...@my-dejanews.com
noone <no...@noneofyourbusiness.com> wrote:
>
> Interesting.. Ukrainian 'diaspora' were the ones who either actively opposed
> russian occupation or spoke out against it and had to flee their homeland as
> result. I suppose you are disappointed they did not remain to be slaughtered
by
> the russians; for this you brand them fanatics ??
No for this -- for inability (or unwilligness) to change opinion regardless of
evidence to the contrary.
> Setting aside for a moment your questionable claim that the UPA commited
> atrocities, remember that the the UPA was struggling to FREE their country
from
> the russians who OCCUPIED it.
I'm perfectly aware of what they thought they were doing. It is the means of
achieving their goal I find questionable. UPA atrocities are well documented.
In addition I have reliable information from *primary* sources. This
information clearly tells me that all 4 sides involved in the conflict are
guilty of atrocities.
> As far as forgetting the past goes, it would help if russia were to at LEAST
> acknowledge atrocities it committed in the countries it occupied, instead of
> blaming all on a mythical race called the soviets.
And you say you're not fanatical? What do you know of Russia or the Soviet
Union? You persist in your opinions despite your basic lack of understanding
of the phenomenon and opinions of people who have first-hand experience.
> AND make no mistake, in the west there is no confusion, the words russian and
> soviet union were interchangable.
>
It seems that the confusion is growing lately (or, for me, clearing up): More
and more often you hear the word 'Soviet' used instead of 'Russian' when
describing events related to the Soviet Union.
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Amazon
>
> Dear Amazon,
>
> It is not enough to work for a good end, it is crucial to employ good
> means. The fact that UPA was fighting against the Evil Empire does not
> justify the means they employed. One cannot combat terrorism with terror,
> for in such a case the very purpose of fighting is defeated, for at the end
> not terrorism but just one form of it is eliminated while the terrorism
> itself continues to flourish, just in a different shape.
>
> Considering events of 1939 and forceful and illegal annexation of Bukovina
> and the West of Ukraine by the USSR, one can but accept that a liberation
> movement (even in a military form) would have been justified there. But
> when one looks at means and methods employed by the resistance movement
> (the OUN/UPA would be a substantial part of it) one has to ask oneself a
> question how one kind of evil is better then another.
>
> From your previous posts Amazon (same applies to GeorgeR) it appears to me
> that you cannot understand that there are people who hated both the Evil
> Empire (= the USSR) and the Not-less Evil Empire (= the USA and alike).
You poor stupid ignorant denationalized and Godless soul,
anyone who would consider the USA a "Not-les Evil Empire" than that
Russia which destroyed your soul is truly a an individual with
no reasoning ability and totally blind and deceived.
In other words a truly despicable soviet fellow.
> As of now any nation/country is presented with a historic choice between few
> different evils.
>
> Danko
Amazon
>
> Dear George,
>
> If your source of knowledge is an UPA member, then you must ask yourself
> whether or not this is an OBJECTIVE source. I can bet that people whose
> only source of knowledge about the Second World War would be Hebbels might
> have a huge respect for Nazis.
>
> As for Shevtchenko, I cannot accept an ideology which calls to shed
> anybody's blood (remember his Testament "i vrazjoju zloju krovju zemlju
> okropite"). He was sad and angry peasant and will remain as such to me.
>
> My grandfather took active participation in fighting the UPA in the West of
> Ukraine,
That explains a lot. You turned out to be just like him.
Amazon
>
> In soc.culture.polish noone <no...@noneofyourbusiness.com> wrote:
> : atrocities, remember that the the UPA was struggling to FREE their country from
> : the russians who OCCUPIED it.
>
> maybe even 100 000. They murdered with axes
> and saws, burned alive.
> 'Questioanble, Russians'.
> Get some reading.
>
> Jerzy Pankiewicz
Lying babling idiot.
The Poles murdered and oppressed the Ukrainians for
hundreds of years resulting in the Kozak movement.
But I think that it is time to put the past behind and
start to work towards good Polish Ukrainian relations.
The French and Germans also had a lot of bad blood between
them, but they have learned to put the past behind and learned
to cooperate to the benefit of both nations. The Poles and
Ukrainians should learn to do likewise, the Ukrainians
are ready to do that and many Poles are too.
Besides, the Russian bear is not yet dead and would love
to see the Slavic Ukrainians and Poles once again slaughter
each other so that he could once again send in his
Finno-Ugric Tataro Mongol hordes to pacify the Slavs.
Wojciech K.
spea...@netcom.ca wrote in message
> Ale prosze pytac...
> Odpowie kiedy bede mogl.
>
> GHC
Jest takie znane przekadlo polskie ktore Pan oczywiscie zna:
"Jak sie komus nie chce, to gorzej jakby nie mogl."
Na wszystkie postawione przeze mnie pytania dokumenty zrodlowe
odpowiadaja:TAK,TO PRAWDA!
Jednak dalej twierdze, ze nie nalezy babrac sie w przeszlosci - a budowac
dobra przyszlosc.
Pana zas odsylam do bogatej literatury o tych czasach (oczywiscie zakladajac
ze Pana odpowiedzi nie sa zwykla kpina.
Wojciech Krasucki
WaRR
>Lying babling idiot.
>
>The Poles murdered and oppressed the Ukrainians for
>hundreds of years resulting in the Kozak movement.
>But I think that it is time to put the past behind and
>start to work towards good Polish Ukrainian relations.
>The French and Germans also had a lot of bad blood between
>them, but they have learned to put the past behind and learned
>to cooperate to the benefit of both nations. The Poles and
>Ukrainians should learn to do likewise, the Ukrainians
>are ready to do that and many Poles are too.
"The Ukrainians are ready to do that and many Poles too". I would rather
rephrase this "Poles are ready to do that and many Ukrainians too". I think
you seem to be forgeting those beloved UPA bastards who desecrate cemetaries
of Polish scouts who bravely fought for Lwow and eastern parts of Poland.
>Besides, the Russian bear is not yet dead and would love
>to see the Slavic Ukrainians and Poles once again slaughter
>each other so that he could once again send in his
>Finno-Ugric Tataro Mongol hordes to pacify the Slavs.
>
Trust me, Poland is not interested in Ukraine because Ukrainians are a
"Slavic brother". Nobody cares about that in Poland, this rhetoric is only
used in poor countries such as Ukraine, Serbia, Belorussia to blame some
other countries for its misfortunes. Poland is interested in Ukraine because
Ukraine occupies Polish land and there is hundreds of thousands of Polish
people living there. Also Ukraine is a place that does not produce anything
worthy buying and therefore imports everything from other countries. Poland
is interested in exporting its goods there. Thats all there is to it.
WaRR
WaRR
spea...@netcom.ca wrote in message <363F6C...@netcom.ca>...
Spray paining on the Ukrainian church in Przemysl is an answer to the spray
painting on the Polish school in Ukraine.
If Poland wanted to revenge huge devastation of the Polish cemetary in Lwow,
Poland would have BLOWN UP the entire Ukrainian church.
So preach on preaching elsewhere boytoy.
WaRR
Slawomir Popiel
Amazon wrote in message <363F87...@earthlink.net>...
[...]
>> Jerzy Pankiewicz
>
>Lying babling idiot.
>
>The Poles murdered and oppressed the Ukrainians for
>hundreds of years resulting in the Kozak movement.
>But I think that it is time to put the past behind and
>start to work towards good Polish Ukrainian relations.
And hereby I presume you are giving a good example of putting an end to the
bad Polish-Ukrainians relations. Just tell me, are you going to use an axe
working towards betterment?
Pozdrawiam,
Slawomir Popiel
New Jersey
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Senate/7847/
http://home.sprynet.com/sprynet/spopiel/
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Troy/7404/
spea...@netcom.ca
Kiedy Pan mysli ze wie odpowiedzi na swoje pytania,
to dlaczego Pan ich zadaje?
Ja natomiast, i moze tez ktos z innych czytaczy,
chcialbym przeczytac niektore z tych dokumentow
zrodlowych, na jakie Pan sie powoluje.
Albowiem, jednym z celow tych grup nowosciowych jest
przeciez wymiana wiadomosciami...
Co dotyczy budowy przyszlosci, to chcialbym zeby ona
byla zbudowana na solidnym fundamencie, a nie na piaskach
historycznej amnezji, lub na bagnach histerycznej nienawisci...
Pozdrawiam,
GHC
spea...@netcom.ca
(...quoted text deleted)
> Spray paining on the Ukrainian church in Przemysl is an answer to the spray
> painting on the Polish school in Ukraine.
> If Poland wanted to revenge huge devastation of the Polish cemetary in Lwow,
> Poland would have BLOWN UP the entire Ukrainian church.
>
> So preach on preaching elsewhere boytoy.
>
> WaRR
Hey, "what are you afraid of ?"...
The printed word?
Or maybe you are the strong and silent type who would rather
speak with a spray-paint can or a pipe bomb?
With reference to what you have just written,
I can easily submit a list of Ukrainian churches, on the present
day territory of Poland, that were either burned down or blown
up by or without the protest from the Polish authorities.
Grow up, snotnose...
GHC
WaRR
spea...@netcom.ca wrote in message <363FD5...@netcom.ca>...
I thought you were the one who desperately wanted to concentrate on present
situation instead of on the past one. At present Poland does not desecrate
Ukrainian cemetaries. Poland is striving for better health care system,
better tax system, creating new infrastructure, commercial initiatives etc.
Ukraine is burried in the past, desecrates Polish cemetaries, enacts dumb
commie-like laws while foreign investors are fleeing this underdeveloped
country. Think about it.
WaRR
Polska Bogata - Polska Silna
spea...@netcom.ca
(...quoted text deleted)
>
>
> Trust me, Poland is not interested in Ukraine because Ukrainians are a
> "Slavic brother". Nobody cares about that in Poland, this rhetoric is only
> used in poor countries such as Ukraine, Serbia, Belorussia to blame some
> other countries for its misfortunes. Poland is interested in Ukraine because
> Ukraine occupies Polish land and there is hundreds of thousands of Polish
> people living there. Also Ukraine is a place that does not produce anything
> worthy buying and therefore imports everything from other countries. Poland
> is interested in exporting its goods there. Thats all there is to it.
>
> WaRR
Spoken like a true capitalist with imperial delusions...
What makes you different, however, is that you telegraph
your intentions to the target.
Nevertheless, I think that this may fairly accurately
reflect the prevailing attitudes not only on the street,
but of the power elites among several of Ukraine's neighbours,
for example, in Russia, Poland, Romania, Hungary..., as well
as in the far abroad.
For this reason, caution may be well advised to Ukrainians
in their dealings with such, especially when responding to
foreign demands, claims or pleas for unilateral action.
GHC
Jerzy Pankiewicz
: The Poles murdered and oppressed the Ukrainians for
Yes. E,g, the Pole Wisniowiecki...
Get some reading, man...
: Ukrainians should learn to do likewise, the Ukrainians
: are ready to do that
Which Ukrainians? Those who devastate
the military cemetery in Lviv?
Jerzy Pankiewicz
GRycar
Needless to say, your ill information about UPA is impressive.
UPA murdered between 40,000 and 100,000 Poles! Fantasitic! Are you a moron or
simply pretending?
The truth is that UPA protected the Ukeainian population from its enemies.
If the truth is to be told, then perhaps it should be noted that UPA made
countless overtures to the Poles to stop their persecution of the Ukrainian
population. The Poles in their arrogant stupidity refused and lost.
The Poles were simply another occupier who behaved terribly in Ukraine. They
lost, and in Lemkivchina the Russians patialy bailed them out.
In actuality things were going so badly for the Poles in Lemkivchina inspite of
their bestial behavior towards the population there that they were reluctant to
pursue the Russian suggestion of anexation untill the Russians assured them
that the area could be totaly depopulated.
The Russian also assured the Poles that they can actively prevent UPA
reinforcments from arriving from the East.
UPA behaved much better towards the POlish population than the Poles did
towards the Ukrainian population.
The Lemko.s still live in Lemkivchina in spite of Polish oppresion,
maltreatment and depopulation.
The Lemko's that I know still despise the Poles for what took place on their
land and pay homage to UPA for their bravery and sacrifice on their behalf.
George R.
GRycar
Why should Ukrainians cherish the graves of their oppressors?
While I am not for desecration, I do understand popular feelings about those
that not only whished them slavery and death but also implented same.
Perhaps you should look at your own Poles and their behavior towards Ukrainian
churches in Lemkivchina.
Why is the descration of graves more odious that the desecration of Churches?
Jerzy, you do stink.
George R.
GRycar
Perhaps if you knew history you would not be so proud of Polish cowardice and
bestialty during their fight with "rezuns".
Perhaps you should indeed read more Polish sources upon this subject.
Ukrainians were not deported because they won, meathead. They beat the human
vermin from both sides and they did this precisely without degenerating into
the beastiality of their enemies!
The whole issue for UPA was the example that they left and the means employed
in their war against evil.
The war, asshole, was for mens souls and the battlefield was men's hearts.
Do stick your head in a sewre again and do learn to respect the truth and valor
even in your enemies.
George R.
Amazon
>
> Danko;
>
> I knew Chesnovky all my life. He occupied a position of leadership in both OUN
> and UPA in Ukraine. In the US he did what he always wanted to do, he practiced
> his art, sculpture.
>
> Chersnovsky was an honorable man who respected the truth regardless of
> consequences. Chersnovky, unlike your ilk did not lie.
>
> Chersnovsky fought in the Red Army of slaves and was highly decorated in it.
>
> It was he who told me that after the Nazis killed his brother there was no way
> that he would permit himself to be taken alive by the Germans.
>
> He despised the Communists and everything that they stood for.
>
> He considerd both Communism and Nazism as a soul destroying evil that executed
> the will of hell.
>
> It was he who first told me that it was better that the Nazis were defeated
> even though it gave dominance to their moral twins the odious Russian
> communist.
>
> His reasoning was always simple but also always clear. He saw the Nazis as a
> much greater danger because of their more substantial cultural base.
>
> The Russian communists were savages destined for self destruction.
>
> He like my father he adored Shevchenko as the prophet of freedom and the voice
> of wisdom in an insane world.
>
> And meathead, Shevchenko's testament is" with the blod of evil baptize
> freedom", and not your Soviet perversion of" with the blood of your enemies
> baptize your land".
>
> Do learn to read, think clearly and reaspect the truth.
>
> So your grandfather was among those that betrayed his countrymen and
> contributed to thier enslavement and death? Was he in the NKVD?
>
> You do know that the Red army refused to fight UPA do you not?
>
> Judging by you statements I trust he was NKVD to whom no quarter was given by
> UPA beacause of their abamonable behaivior towards the Ukrainian population.
>
> You truly are the damned.
>
> George R
George, you are absolutely correct, I too knew a couple of former UPA
fighters, one who I got to know quite well was Dr. Roman Cetenko who
after fighting his way out of Ukraine came to the USA where he studied
medecine and dentistry and became a successful surgeon and dentist.
But he did not forget his beloved Ukraine because of his success.
He was instrumental in working with the American Bible Society and
various other Christian organizations in getting the Bible to the
Ukrainian people after the collapse of the Evil Empire and the
resurrection of the Ukrainian Churches. The UPA fighters were noble
warriors in battle and good and generous men in times of peace
who never forgot their nation and did everything they could for
their fellow countrymen. May God grant that all of their dreams
for their nation become realized as their nation wakes up from the
stupor of foreign colonization and sovietization.
Dan K.
Amazon
Once again you are absolutely correct George, it was the Poles who were
the aggressors and occupiers in Western Ukraine and who brutalized the
Ukrainian population and now some Polish chauvinists want to make it
look
like it was the other way around. My own grandfather was beaten by the
Polish "heroes" for *no* reason and subsequently died of his beating
by Polish rifle butts. I hate what the Poles did to my grandfather
and the Ukrainian people, but it is time IMHO to put the past behind us
and work towards the future by building a new era of cooperation,
mutual respect and keeping a wary eye on the still dangerous "bear"
who would love to once again devour not only Ukraine, but Poland as
well.
Dan K.
GRycar
GRycar
My great Uncle had a Polish a Polish wife and he was murdered by Poles.
Try to prevaricate less and respect the truth more.
Your anger with UPA is that they not only did not degenerate to the leves of
their enemies but that they won with valor and virtue at a time when your
countrymen with much greater recources did neither.
I trust that perhaps you should examine Polish behavior before you start
finding fault where there is non.
Yes, it is time for the truth. However, I am not convinced that it is the truth
that you are seeking.
George R..
spea...@netcom.ca
>
> In soc.culture.polish spea...@netcom.ca wrote:
>
> : Watpie ze UPA wtedy dysponowala sto tysiacami kul w swojej
> : zbrojowni.
> Wyjatkowo trafil Pan w srodek tarczy.
> Ofiary mordowano siekierami lub przecinano
> pila, podpalano.
Przecinanie pila, wyglada na powolny i okrutny rodzaj
smierci.
Czy moze Pan to udowodnic, podajac naprzyklad sprawozdanie
naocznych swiadkow?
> : Niemcy.
> A kto zrobil liste? Ukraincy z Krakowa...
>
> Byc moze niektorym sie nalezalo, Bartel byl
> w Moskwie i to nie w sprawach naukowych.
> Ale nie sadze, zeby w Krakowie znano szczegoly.
Exterminowanie inteligencji przeciwnika, w momencie wkroczenia
okupacyjnych sil wyglada na profesyjnie premedytowane morder-
stwo, preludium do ludobojstwa..., spreparowane kierownictwem
III-ej Rzeszy, a nie ujarzmionym narodem Ukrainskim.
Pan obstaje za tym ze liste ofiar przygotowali jacys tam
Ukraincy z Krakowa, ale nie wymienia Pan ich nazwisk, ani
nawet ich liczby. Ile ich tam bylo..., dwoch, trzech? Czy oni
to zrobili z osobistych przyczyn, czy z ramienia organizacji?
Czy Niemcy nie mogli znalezc wybitnych Polakow we Lwowie na
podstawie juz opublikowanych informacji?
Ale kiedy tam byl jakis Ukrainski donosiciel, to co ten fakt
udowadnia? Czy nie bylo zdrajcow pomiedzy Polakami?
> Poadano nazwisak wybitnych Polakow.
> rzeczywiscie, po co mordowac sprzataczki,
> jezeli mozna wybitnych ludzi?
>
> Jerzy Pankiewicz
W blitzkriegu, naprzod obcinaja glowe, a potem rece...
GHC
spea...@netcom.ca
(...quoted text deleted)
>
> I thought you were the one who desperately wanted to concentrate on present
> situation instead of on the past one. At present Poland does not desecrate
> Ukrainian cemetaries. Poland is striving for better health care system,
> better tax system, creating new infrastructure, commercial initiatives etc.
> Ukraine is burried in the past, desecrates Polish cemetaries, enacts dumb
> commie-like laws while foreign investors are fleeing this underdeveloped
> country. Think about it.
Desperation and concentration are unlikely bedfellows...
If you want an example of how Ukrainian cemetaries are
being desacrated in present day Poland, visit the one
in Hryniec, near Przemysl, or in Michalow, near Wroclaw,
or even the field in a village near Bircza, where the cows
graze over the mass grave of UPA soldiers killed in action.
It seems that old habits die hard...
GHC
Danko
GRycar <gry...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19981104191558...@ng39.aol.com>...
> Danko;
>
(text deleted, see above)
> Chersnovsky fought in the Red Army of slaves and was highly decorated in
it.
Hmm???
>
> It was he who told me that after the Nazis killed his brother there was
no way
> that he would permit himself to be taken alive by the Germans.
>
> He despised the Communists and everything that they stood for.
>
And yet he "fought in the Red Army of slaves" (what does it make him) "and
was highly decorated in it". May one ask whom he fought and what he was
decorated for?
> He considerd both Communism and Nazism as a soul destroying evil that
executed
> the will of hell.
>
"Will of hell" concept aside, there is nothing new there.
> It was he who first told me that it was better that the Nazis were
defeated
> even though it gave dominance to their moral twins the odious Russian
> communist.
My sentiment exactly choice between two evils.
>
> His reasoning was always simple but also always clear. He saw the Nazis
as a
> much greater danger because of their more substantial cultural base.
>
Ever read Stalin, Hitler or Mao, see how simple their reasoning is.
> The Russian communists were savages destined for self destruction.
>
Agreed, but I may also add that Ukrainian communists were not any better.
> He like my father he adored Shevchenko as the prophet of freedom and the
voice
> of wisdom in an insane world.
>
Strangely enough Fromm missed this voice of sanity while studying the
"insane world".
> And meathead, Shevchenko's testament is" with the blod of evil baptize
> freedom", and not your Soviet perversion of" with the blood of your
enemies
> baptize your land".
I quoted Shevtchenko in Ukrainian. The words are "i vrazhoju zloju krovju
zeml'u okropite". Are you challenging that? Ever read Shevtchenko in
original? I had to, for he was a compulsory part of any school curriculum
in "communist Russia occupied Ukraine" in 1970's. However, I consider this
time wasted, I'd rather was reading Hegel.
>
> Do learn to read, think clearly and reaspect the truth.
Do not now what "reaspect" is (I guess you are getting excited). As for
reading, apparently it is you who must learn to read Shevtchenko in
Ukrainian. "Think clearly". I wish I could, but only in the asylum of
cretinism everything is straight forward, for all answers are pre-given.
>
> So your grandfather was among those that betrayed his countrymen and
> contributed to thier enslavement and death? Was he in the NKVD?
>
No, he was in the Red Army and was highly decorated. As for betraying, to
the best of my knowledge he sworn allegiance to the USSR and always
honoured it. By the way so do I (even though I am completely against the
social order which existed in the USSR) therefore having lost Soviet
Citizenship I will never apply for or accept any other since I am bound by
my word.
> You do know that the Red army refused to fight UPA do you not?
>
That's the news. Did you mean to say some Red Army officers/soldiers
refused to do so, or was there either a Ministry for Defense or a Commander
in Chief statement to that effect. Please clarify with facts and dates.
> Judging by you statements I trust he was NKVD to whom no quarter was
given by
> UPA beacause of their abamonable behaivior towards the Ukrainian
population.
>
As I said he was not. And how can you conclude that he was ("judging by my
statements") when all I said that he fought the UPA and I am not proud of
his actions. I also am not proud of all raping and violence which the Red
Army committed in Germany during the dying days of the WWII (are you proud
of what American heroes did in Vietnam?)
> You truly are the damned.
>
Do not care. I already pointed out, that Christianity has no place in my
outlook, or may be just as a subject to study.
> George R
>
>
Bye, bye,
Danko
ole...@my-dejanews.com
"Danko" <t...@again.com> wrote:
>> The Russian communists were savages destined for self destruction.
>Agreed, but I may also add that Ukrainian communists were not any better.
At least, some of them, Lubchenko and Skrypnyk, having witnessed the
unspeakable horror inflicted upon their fellow Ukrainians by the Communists,
were honest and decent enough to take their own lives.
[...]
>> And meathead, Shevchenko's testament is" with the blod of evil baptize
>> freedom", and not your Soviet perversion of" with the blood of your
>> enemies baptize your land".
>I quoted Shevtchenko in Ukrainian. The words are "i vrazhoju zloju krovju
>zeml'u okropite". Are you challenging that? Ever read Shevtchenko in
>original? I had to, for he was a compulsory part of any school curriculum
>in "communist Russia occupied Ukraine" in 1970's. However, I consider this
>time wasted, I'd rather was reading Hegel.
Never mind that you had wasted your entire life studying the so-called
"Scientific Communism"!
Good Heavens, Danko! You failed even Soviet education. (Aside the fact that
you are trained in the pseudo-science of the Scientific Communism).
T.Shevchenko, "Zapovit", L'viv, Rus'ka Drukarnia, 1912
"Poxovaite ta vstavajte, kajdany porvite,
I vrazhoju zloju krovju VOLIU okropite"
>> Do learn to read, think clearly and reaspect the truth.
>Do not now what "reaspect" is (I guess you are getting excited). As for
>reading, apparently it is you who must learn to read Shevtchenko in
>Ukrainian.
No, it is you, who needs to do some learning.
Oleksa
>Danko
spea...@netcom.ca
>
> In article <01be0897$79d46880$7ff9869f@default>,
> "Danko" <t...@again.com> wrote:
(...some quoted text deleted)
> >I quoted Shevtchenko in Ukrainian. The words are "i vrazhoju zloju krovju
> >zeml'u okropite". Are you challenging that? Ever read Shevtchenko in
> >original? I had to, for he was a compulsory part of any school curriculum
> >in "communist Russia occupied Ukraine" in 1970's. However, I consider this
> >time wasted, I'd rather was reading Hegel.
>
> Never mind that you had wasted your entire life studying the so-called
> "Scientific Communism"!
>
> Good Heavens, Danko! You failed even Soviet education. (Aside the fact that
> you are trained in the pseudo-science of the Scientific Communism).
>
> T.Shevchenko, "Zapovit", L'viv, Rus'ka Drukarnia, 1912
>
> "Poxovaite ta vstavajte, kajdany porvite,
> I vrazhoju zloju krovju VOLIU okropite"
>
>
(...some text deleted)
It seems that he has studied Hupokrisis, not Hegel...
GHC
...
Slawomir Popiel
spea...@netcom.ca wrote in message <364151...@netcom.ca>...
>Jerzy Pankiewicz wrote:
>>
>> In soc.culture.polish spea...@netcom.ca wrote:
>>
>> : Watpie ze UPA wtedy dysponowala sto tysiacami kul w swojej
>> : zbrojowni.
>> Wyjatkowo trafil Pan w srodek tarczy.
>> Ofiary mordowano siekierami lub przecinano
>> pila, podpalano.
>
>
> Przecinanie pila, wyglada na powolny i okrutny rodzaj
> smierci.
>
> Czy moze Pan to udowodnic, podajac naprzyklad sprawozdanie
> naocznych swiadkow?
Polecam "Pany i rezuny" Motyki i Wnuka. Wydaje mi sie, ze to obiektywna
ksiazka, choc na nieco inny temat. Tym niemniej, znajdzie pan tam tez
informacje, ktore pana interesuja.
Td Blk
> >
> >
> > Przecinanie pila, wyglada na powolny i okrutny rodzaj
> > smierci.
> >
> > Czy moze Pan to udowodnic, podajac naprzyklad sprawozdanie
> > naocznych swiadkow?
Zazwyczaj nie wtracam sie do dyskusji ale tym razem zrobie wyjatek.
Otoz znam czlowieka ktory zdolal sie uratowac z rzezi na Podolu.
Byl moim sasiadem. Czlowiek ten ma obecnie ponad 70 lat.
Pochodzi z malej wioski na Podolu. Tam sie urodzil i spedzil dziecinstwo.
Nie bede dokladnie opisywal jego histori bo jest za dluga ale przytocze
tylko
kilka punktow z jego opowiadan:
- UPA otaczalo polskie wioski, nie od razu atakowano, pozwalano do nich
wjechac
ale juz nie wypuszczano, gdy uznano ze juz sa wszyscy atakowano.
- Ukraincy uzywali siekier, nozy itp., mordowano wszyskich bez wyjatku,
kobiety,
dzieci. i oczywiscie meszczyzn. Gdy tylko czas na to pozwolil pastwiono sie
nawet
nad dziecmi.
- niektore rodziny Ukrainskie zyly w dobrych stosunkach z Polakami, gdy
jednak
Ukrainiec wstawil sie za Polakiem czekal go taki sam los jak Polaka.
- ratunkiem dla Polakow byly miasta gdzie stacjonowaly oddzialy niemieckie.
Polacy zbierali sie w wieksze grupy i starali sie dostac do najblizszego
miasta.
W grupie mojego sasiada byly dwie osoby z bronia palna. Ukraincy ich nie
zaatakowali ze wzgledu na liczebnosc grupy i fakt ze jakas tam bron byla.
Wnioskuje ze UPA bylo zle uzbrojone, przynajmniej na poczatku.
Moj sasiad jest czlowiekiem bardzo religijnym.
Nie widze powodu dla ktorego mialby klamac, zreszta nie mogl zmyslec wielu
szczegolow - ja je pomijam bo sa zbyt drastyczne. Tyle co wiem z "pierwszej
reki" .
Tadeusz
Wojciech K.
Td Blk wrote in message
.............
>Nie widze powodu dla ktorego mialby klamac, zreszta nie mogl zmyslec wielu
>szczegolow - ja je pomijam bo sa zbyt drastyczne. Tyle co wiem z "pierwszej
>reki" .
>Tadeusz
Prosze gdzies zdobyc ksiazke pt."Czerwone noce" - Henryka(?) Cybulskiego.
Autor byl dowodca Samoobrony w Przebrazu.
Jest przerazajaca!
Wojciech K.
spea...@netcom.ca
>
> spea...@netcom.ca wrote in message <364151...@netcom.ca>...
> >Jerzy Pankiewicz wrote:
> >>
> >> In soc.culture.polish spea...@netcom.ca wrote:
> >>
> >> : Watpie ze UPA wtedy dysponowala sto tysiacami kul w swojej
> >> : zbrojowni.
> >> Wyjatkowo trafil Pan w srodek tarczy.
> >> Ofiary mordowano siekierami lub przecinano
> >> pila, podpalano.
> >
> >
> > smierci.
> >
> > Czy moze Pan to udowodnic, podajac naprzyklad sprawozdanie
> > naocznych swiadkow?
>
> ksiazka, choc na nieco inny temat. Tym niemniej, znajdzie pan tam tez
> informacje, ktore pana interesuja.
>
>
Thank you. If you have a copy available, please post
the ISBN registration number.
In addition, I interests me to know which sources was
Mr. Pankiewicz referring to...
GHC
Zbigniew Szymkowiak
> Malo znanym elementem okupacji niemieckiej na kresach jest fakt uzbrajania przez Niemcow
> polskich organizacji samoobrony w karabiny. Samoobrona miala byc obrona
> ludnosci polskiej na kresach przed agresja ukrainska i nie wchodzila w sklad
> jakich kolwiek formacji.
> To by bylo tyle, co wiem na tematy w pytaniach pana Wojtka.
To fakt ze Polacy, jesli mogli, bronili sie. Natomiast Niemcy:
najpierw podpuscili OUN ze moze powstac "Wolna Ukraina" dajac
bezposrednio do zrozumienia ze Polska juz nie bedzie istniec, potem OUN
i ciemne chlopstwo przystapilo do "rezania", potem Niemcy dali (byc
moze) kilka pistoletow Polakom aby mogli sie bronic przeciwko setkom
siekier, widel i czymkolwiek mozna bylo zabic.
Czy to chcial Pan dokladnie przekazac do SCP?
Zbigniew
Slawomir Popiel
spea...@netcom.ca wrote in message <364289...@netcom.ca>...
[...]
>
> Thank you. If you have a copy available, please post
> the ISBN registration number.
ISBN 83-86857-72-2
Slawomir Popiel
Zbigniew Szymkowiak wrote in message <3641F9...@sympatico.ca>...
Chcialem przekazac dokladnie to, co przekazalem. Informacje, nie osobiste
emocje.
Czytalem przed laty ksiazke, ktorej autor byl organizatorem takich grup
samoobrony Polakow, ale bylo to ze 20 lat temu, nie pamietam autora ani
tytulu. Druga strona, to nie tylko siekiery czy widly. Oddzialy UPA byly
dobrze uzbrojone.
Danko
If the first of you will get to my initial post, than you will see that the
very call to shed anybody's blood is the thing that I oppose. To the best
of my recollection the word in the Testament was "zemlju", even if I am
wrong (I do not keep or buy or read Shevtchenko - I do not like his lyrics,
sorry; whatever I read I did so because I had to do so in occupied Ukraine,
where in 1970's and 1980's at least Ukrainian language was compulsory part
of secondary school curriculum) on that matter, it does not change the main
premise. Killing of a killer does not do any good, for two wrongs do not
make one right.
If the second of you read my post clearly, you will see, that I said I'd
rather be reading Hegel, there was no mentioning of my studying the same.
If you'd like to discuss things you have to be mathematically precise. The
old method of assuming opponents point of view and then fighting the
assumption can no longer impress.
With respect,
Danko
spea...@netcom.ca
>
> Dear Sirs,
>
> If the first of you will get to my initial post, than you will see that the
> very call to shed anybody's blood is the thing that I oppose. To the best
> of my recollection the word in the Testament was "zemlju", even if I am
> wrong (I do not keep or buy or read Shevtchenko - I do not like his lyrics,
> sorry; whatever I read I did so because I had to do so in occupied Ukraine,
> where in 1970's and 1980's at least Ukrainian language was compulsory part
> of secondary school curriculum) on that matter, it does not change the main
> premise. Killing of a killer does not do any good, for two wrongs do not
> make one right.
If you are the kind of person who " cannot accept an ideology
which calls to shed anybody's blood", not even in defense of
your own life, liberty or that of others, then the relevance
of that excerpt from Shevchenko's "Testament" may very well
have escaped you.
Nevertheless, this does not change the fact, underscored by
Oleksa, that the original wording, and therefore the meaning
of Shevchenko was: "I vrazhoju zloju krovju voliu okropite"
and not the Russian/Soviet censor's "zeml'u okropite".
Shevchenko called upon the Ukrainian masses to free themselves
by getting rid of their oppressors. Evidently, he treasured
his and his fellows' right to freedom more than the right to
life of the malefactors. That was his philosophical premise.
He did not counsel to shed blood for any lesser reason, but
in the protection of life itself.
Maybe, it is you who should be more "mathematically precise"?
> If the second of you read my post clearly, you will see, that I said I'd
> rather be reading Hegel, there was no mentioning of my studying the same.
>
> If you'd like to discuss things you have to be mathematically precise. The
> old method of assuming opponents point of view and then fighting the
> assumption can no longer impress.
If you find Hegel more interesting than Shevchenko,
then it is your prerogative. However, do not misquote the
latter, eventhough he derived from the agricultural class.
If a man's greatness can be quantified in universal units
then Shevchenko's is likely to exceed Hegel's, if only
because the former overcame the overwhelming adversity of
his social class and national origin to attain the height
of his vocation, whereas the latter seems to have been born
with a silver spoon in his mouth.
After all, would you risk misrepresenting Hegel...?
With respect to the difference between "studying Hegel" and
"reading Hegel", which you pointed out..., did I state that
you were studying Hegel? No. You only surmised that, as if
were implied by my statement.
Nevertheless, even if we assume that this meaning was implied,
what do these two verbs mean?
"To read" is defined as: To comprehend the meaning of
something written or printed.
"To study" is defined as: To apply one's mind purposefully
to the acquisition of knowledge or
understanding of a subject.
Now, if you were only reading Hegel, then you were trying to
comprehend him, unless of course you were re-reading his work
for pleasure, without attempting to understand the subject.
If you did not study Hegel, then you did not apply your mind
purposefully to the acquisition of knowledge. Now, this may be
quite offensive to the memory of Hegel, who after all was a
philosopher... "The truth is whole. But the whole is nothing
other than the essence consummating itself through its
development"
Alternatively, if you meant to say that you would rather
have read Hegel than Shevchenko, as a lesser evil, then you
have neither read nor studied Hegel.
So what's all the fuss about...?
GHC
Zbigniew Szymkowiak
Polecam do przeczytania ksiazki z ktorych zaczerpnalem "osobiste
emocje":
Wiktor Poliszczuk "Gorzka Prawda" ISBN 0-9699444-0-3
Edward Prus "UPA Armia Powstancza czy Kurenie Rizunow?" ISBN
83-85829-31-8
Pozdrawiam
Zbigniew
Danko
spea...@netcom.ca wrote in article <364376...@netcom.ca>...
And where did I say that I read Hegel. I said "I'd rather be", I may not
even know who the guy is, as far as the conversation is concerned.
Danko
spea...@netcom.ca
(...text deleted)
> Moj sasiad jest czlowiekiem bardzo religijnym.
> Nie widze powodu dla ktorego mialby klamac, zreszta nie mogl zmyslec wielu
> szczegolow - ja je pomijam bo sa zbyt drastyczne. Tyle co wiem z "pierwszej
> reki" .
> Tadeusz
I do not doubt your sincerity.
However, I am afraid that I could find similar reports dealing with
the atrocities committed on the Ukrainian population of Podilia,
Polisia and Volhynia by the Polish forces ( irregular, underground
or regular, acting independently or in cooperation with the German
or Soviet units ) during the same time period, and similar actions
took place to the west of the Curzon Line.
These atrocities were not necessarily spontaneous in nature...
For example, a Bugarian communist author, Wsiewolod Wolczew, in
"Przyczynek do stanowiska ugrupowan obozu londynskiego na Lubelsz-
czyznie wobec kwestii ukrainskiej" and published in "Z dziejow
stosunkow polsko-radzieckich, Studia i materialy", Warszawa 1969,
t.V., writes:
"...Prawica obozu londynskiego juz w 1943 roku
zapoczatkowala zbrojne dzialania antyukrainskie,
przedstawiajac je jako przeciwdzialanie antypolskiej
akcji OUN i UPA. Uderzenia Armii Krajowej skierowane
jednak zostaly w pierwszym rzedzie przeciwko spokojnej
ludnosci ukrainskiej, ktora w swej podstawowej masie
nie brala udzialu w terrorystycznej akcji OUN, UPA,
jednostek dywizji SS-Galizien i policji ukrainskiej."
E. Gronczewski, pseudonym "Przepiorka", and a commander of one of
the detachments of Armia Ludowa in the region of Lubelszczyzna,
writes the following in his book "Wspomnienia "Przepiorki"" on
pp. 112-114:
"Z przykroscia musze stwierdzic, ze na ziemiach
nadbuzanskich prym w maltretowaniu spokojnej ludnosci
wodzilo podziemie reakcyjne, gdyz napady nacjonalistow
ukrainskich byly rzadkie, dokonywane przez kilku lub
kilkunastoosobowe bandy, ktore przedostawaly sie na lewy
brzeg Bugu i zawyczaj szybko umykaly z powrotem.
Wykorzystujac precedens przywodcy reakcyjnego podziemia
na tych terenach organizowali zakrojone na szeroka skale
wyprawy, maltretujac ludnosc we wsiach zamieszkalych przez
Ukraincow. W wypadach tych braly niejednokrotnie udzial
zorganizowane kilkusetosobowe watahy, siejace postrach,
zniszczenie i pozostawiajace za soba slady niewinnie
przelanej krwi... Potwierdzono nam wszystko, co slyszelismy
wsrod ludnosci o stosunkach polsko-ukrainskich, wskazujac
konkretne fakty i dowody... Wysilek oddzialow podziemia
prolondynskiego sprowadzal sie glownie do walki, a raczej
do wyniszczenia wsi zamieszkalych przez Ukraincow i rodziny
mieszane."
(From: Mikolaj Siwicki's
"Dzieje Konfliktow Polsko-Ukrainskich"
Vol. 3, Warszawa 1944, pp. 53-54,
ISBN 83-900779-2-2)
GHC
spea...@netcom.ca
(...text deleted)
>
> (From: Mikolaj Siwicki's
> "Dzieje Konfliktow Polsko-Ukrainskich"
> Vol. 3, Warszawa 1944, pp. 53-54,
> ISBN 83-900779-2-2)
>
> GHC
Correction. The correct reference should read:
Jerzy Pankiewicz
: For example, a Bugarian communist author, Wsiewolod Wolczew, in
If all your sources are Bulgarian Communists
popukaj sie w glowe.
Jerzy Pankiewicz
GRycar
Why is it so difficult for you to grasm simple concepts? Chersenovsky fought in
the Red army of slaves because he was forced to do so.
He fought in it not for communism or Russia but for his own survival. That the
ability to think as a free man made him a superior soldier and more affective
in combat is indeed witnessed by the decorations that he recieved in this army
of evil.
I did tell you that he fought against the Germans and that when the Germans
killed his brother his resolve and determination not to be taken prisoner by
the Nazis increased ten fold.
Needless to say, as a free man he deserted the army of his enemies and joined
his brothers in the defence of his countrymen and his Nation.
And you do pride yourself in your loyalty to the former quagmire of evil and
stupidity that inflicted slavery and death upon your countrymen.
Simplicity is not interchagable with prevarication and deceit. Evil is always
incidious because it must hide its purpose.
Clarity is not the purpose of deceit, it is clarity that Chersnovsky
communicated with simplicity.
Ukrainian Communists were either fools, criminals or perverts. They did get
what they strived for. They died like dogs in the 30's and later, like
yourself, ended with nothing.
You will not understand Hegel. Shevchenko is a greater metaphysician.
Respect means to consider its value or to not prematurly dismiss its message.
To swear allegiance to the murderers of you countrymen is not wise. Loyalty to
evil is indeed ill asdvised but non the less the choice of fools and morons.
Do read your history and you will indeed discover that the Red army did refuse
to fight UPA and as a result of this refusal the war was assigned to the NKVD
of whom over 750,000 engaged UPA and lost.
That Christianity has no place in you life is self apearant, however the lack
of same is your loss and the result of your education of stupidity and evil.
As my Black freinds insist, "the devil is a lier". You meathead have been
consistantly lied to, but because you have been concomitantly also educated to
be stupid you are unable to understand that perhaps the lies did not serve
you well.
George R.
spea...@netcom.ca
"If" is conditional..., but irrelevant here as of the two
references cited one was Bulgarian, written in Polish, and
the other was Polish, written in Polish...
Both authors concur that reactionary Polish underground
(i.e., right-wing London based faction of AK, according to
Mr. Wolczew) was involved in punitive raids against peaceful
Ukrainian villages in the region of Lubelszczyzna.
Why should being a Bulgarian Communist detract from the
probity of that conclusion? In this case, it may imply
a degree of impartiality.
Nich sie Pan poskrobie po glowie...
GHC
Jerzy Pankiewicz
: Nich sie Pan poskrobie po glowie...
: GHC
No wlasnie...
Zgodnie z komunistycznymi zrodlami UPA to bandyci,
Czy Pan aprobuje komunistyczna propaganda ogolnie,
czy tylko wtedy, gdy pluje na Polakow?
Czy NKVD jest OK gdy morduje AK-owcow,
a popelnia zbrodnie mordujac UPA?
JP
spea...@netcom.ca
The answer is to know how to read between the lines...
Maybe Mr. Wolczew was as much of a Communist as you were,
when he wrote those lines back in 1969?
Take for example the official Party press.
The Polish Communist Party organ "Trybuna Ludu" carried
mostly censored editorial and news articles, but occasionally
published accurate reports, when there was no time to censor
them or if the situation described seemed to be supportive or
at least non-threatening to the official Party line.
A specific example of this, in the context of what is being
discussed, is the genocide committed by the 23-member group
of the National Armed Forces (Narodowe Sily Zbrojne or NSZ),
another Polish underground paramilitary formation, on the
Ukrainian inhabitants of the village of Wierzchowiny in the
Krasnystawski district, on June 6, 1945.
Within 2 hours, these bandits murdered 194 Ukrainians, including
65 children, younger than 11 years of age.
I will spare you the vivid details of that atrocity, most of
which were published in the Polish Communist paper "Glos Ludu",
nr. 150 (1945), except to say that similar ones may have been
only alluded to in Dante's "Inferno".
Why did a censored Polish Communist newspaper did tell the truth
in this particular case?
Evidently, because it served their purpose well...
The order to commit this crime came from none other than
Zygmunt Wolanin, the NSZ's chief of PAS (Emergency Squad for
Special Actions or Pogotowie Akcji Specjalnej) the mandate of
of which was to kill members of UB (State Security Agency or
Urzad Bezpieczenstwa), public administration, members of the
Polish Temporary Government (Rzad Tymczasowy) and, at least
according to "Zenon" (NSZ's inspector for the Region of Lubel-
szczyzna), to the "liquidation of Jewish and Ukrainian population
harmful to the NSZ"...
(Ref: M. Siwicki, Dzieje Konfliktow Polsko-Ukrainskich,
Dokument 18, Vol. 3, Warszawa 1994, pp. 151-154,
ISBN 83-900779-2-2)
With respect to your implication that these facts are "spitting
on the Poles", I have to add that they are "spitting" only on the
perpetrators of the crimes in question, and maybe by extension on
their present day apologists...
With respect to your last question, whether it was permissible
for the NKVD to murder AK (Polish Home Army or Armia Krajowa)
members but not UPA (Ukrainian Insurgent Army or Ukrainska
Povstanska Armia) members, the answer is "No"...
NKVD murdered their prisoners, irrespectively of their ethnic
origin and in this respect, the AK and the UPA were the unwilling
allies...
GHC
Danko
GRycar <gry...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19981110194429...@ng28.aol.com>...
> Danko;
>
> Why is it so difficult for you to grasm simple concepts? Chersenovsky
fought in
> the Red army of slaves because he was forced to do so.
And got highly decorated, because...?
>
> He fought in it not for communism or Russia but for his own survival.
That the
> ability to think as a free man made him a superior soldier and more
affective
> in combat is indeed witnessed by the decorations that he recieved in this
army
> of evil.
Was he more "affective" or "effective"? So fighting for his survival and
having got "ability to think as a free man" he was one of the best in
implementation of objectives of "this army of evil". In other words your
concept allows those who "think as free man" what survival requires join
"armies of evil" and do their best in helping those armies in achieving
their ends?
> I did tell you that he fought against the Germans and that when the
Germans
> killed his brother his resolve and determination not to be taken prisoner
by
> the Nazis increased ten fold.
>
> Needless to say, as a free man he deserted the army of his enemies and
joined
> his brothers in the defence of his countrymen and his Nation.
>
"As a free man he deserted". The last I heard people who "dessert" army
called deserters not "free man".
> And you do pride yourself in your loyalty to the former quagmire of evil
and
> stupidity that inflicted slavery and death upon your countrymen.
You see, you cannot grasp (or is it "grasm", see above?) that I was not
supporting the former Soviet Union as much as I am not going to support
Ukraine, or Russia, or Ireland. I do not care for nations and countries at
all.
>
> Simplicity is not interchagable with prevarication and deceit. Evil is
always
> incidious because it must hide its purpose.
>
> Clarity is not the purpose of deceit, it is clarity that Chersnovsky
> communicated with simplicity.
These two lines is a complete goubly-goog.
>
> Ukrainian Communists were either fools, criminals or perverts. They did
get
> what they strived for. They died like dogs in the 30's and later, like
> yourself, ended with nothing.
I am actually doing fine. Have my own business and expanding rapidly. Not
without a problem, but I am doing OK. What about you?
>
> You will not understand Hegel. Shevchenko is a greater metaphysician.
>
By this statements your level of objectivity shall be measured.
> Respect means to consider its value or to not prematurly dismiss its
message.
>
> To swear allegiance to the murderers of you countrymen is not wise.
Loyalty to
> evil is indeed ill asdvised but non the less the choice of fools and
morons.
>
> Do read your history and you will indeed discover that the Red army did
refuse
> to fight UPA and as a result of this refusal the war was assigned to the
NKVD
> of whom over 750,000 engaged UPA and lost.
>
> That Christianity has no place in you life is self apearant, however the
lack
> of same is your loss and the result of your education of stupidity and
evil.
>
> As my Black freinds insist, "the devil is a lier". You meathead have been
> consistantly lied to, but because you have been concomitantly also
educated to
> be stupid you are unable to understand that perhaps the lies did not
serve
> you well.
>
> George R.
>
>
Danko
Mike
spea...@netcom.ca wrote
..............................
GHC
Czy moglby Pan wyjasnic, o co Panu chodzi?
Czy chce Pan powrotu atmosfery tych czasow?
Pytam zakladajac, ze nie kieruje Panem chec
psucia i tak napietych stosunkow miedzy
obu Narodami.
Wojciech K.