UKRAINE 6000 YEARS AGO
Eugenius
UKRAINE 6000 YEARS AGO
http://www.cdv.kiev.ua/Ukr6000.html
By Dr.Mykhailo Videiko,
Institute of Archaeology, NAS of Ukraine.
It still possible at the end of the XX th century to discover on the
European continent gigantic cities, more ancient, than the Egyptian
pyramids. The ancient Symerians used to answer the question "When the
World was created ? "with " When people began to eat bread and smelt
metall ". But what was in Europe happening in Europe when "everything
was just beginning in Sumer?" Is it really true that here were living
in caves and kurens, as in the Stone Age? Strange things are found in
the European legends of the Copper Age: they they claim,that on the
end of the World there is a River of the Deadon the other side of
which the World of the Dead begins. Above it stands Tavropolis -
literalle Bull City, guarded by the monsters responsible for carying
the souls of the dead to the World of the Dead. Thus through historic
memory some evidence on the existence of the city in Europe in the
V-IV milleniums BC has survived! It's worth searching for this city
somewhere along the border between a forest and a steppe, in so far as
European farmers used ti regard steppe land as the "other world" since
it was impossible to grow bread here and live normally. In the center
of the modern Ukraine from the East to West the Sinyukha river flows,
which the Scythians used to call "the Dead Water" 2500 years ago.Could
it be the River of the Dead? But where was the ancient Tavropolis?
Where are its ruins ? It should be older than Sumerian Ur and Babylon.
But it is difficult question to answer not so much because Ukrainian
antiquties from 5000 years B.C. have been lost, but on the contrary
too many have survived. 30 years ago there was a discjvery, whose
importance still has not been fully realised. As a result of the
aerial photography in the Ukrainian forest-steppe not just a city, but
several dozen cities of the Copper Age were discovered. The smallest
of them occupies an area of 0,4 square kilometer, and the biggest one-
near 4,5 square kilometers. The famous Ur in Mesopotamia at the
beginning of the 3-rd millenium B.C. occupied near 0,9 sq.km... The
first reaction of the archaeologists somewhat sceptical, sometimes
negative: "it can't be so, because it's simply impossible". But some
years later, thanks to magnetic survey, it was even possible to make
exact plans of mysterious proto-cities. After this even the most
ardent sceptics were convinced that gigantic settlements were not a
figment of immagination, but unknown page of European prehistory. What
kind of people lived here? Archaeologists called this antiquities "The
Tripolye culture". The Western part of this cultural complex is better
known as the Cucuteni culture. Influence of this ancient civilisations
6000 years ago stretched from the modern Rumanian Prykarpattya in the
West to the Dnipro river in the East. Now it is the territory of
Romania, Moldova and Ukraine, the peoples of which have inherited some
elements of these ancient civilisation.
[Picture: Geomagnethic plan of Maydanetz, Tripolye proto-city on the
River of the Dead: after Valeri Dudkin, 1972-1974. Scale: every square
= 100x100 m.]
New excavations of ukrainian archaeologists made it possible to
restore some of these proto-cities. The Trypiltsi built comfortable
houses of materials that where easy to obtain - clay and wood. The
buildings of settlement near Maydanetz consisted of 2-storey
"Cottages", each with a floor area from 70 to 200 sq.m or more. The
first floor was used for home management and the second - for living.
Nearly every family owned such a house. Clay models of houses which
were found during excavations often depict 2-storey buildings with
vertical pillars,breast walls,a rounded window,doors and threshold.
During these ancient times every city had to be a mighty fortress. The
houses of Tripolye proto-cities were built closely one to another,
like terraced houses, making up at least two lines of fortification.
The first line occupied the centre, and the second one was on distance
equivalent to the flight of an arrow from teh first line. The scale is
extremely impressive: the elliptical form of the citadel of Maydanetz
was km long and that of Tallyanki - 3,5 km long! On the magnetic
plans and aerial photographs of settlements we also can see
additionally fortified entranges. Further investigations should show
what the gates of the legendary Tavropolis looked like.
[Picture: Tripolye proto-city Maydanetz - scientific reconstruction.
Archaeological excavations of Dr.Mykola Shmaglij and Dr.Mykhailo
Videiko,1971-1991, Institute of Archaeology NAS of Ukraine.]
The beauty of Tripolye culture lies in its pottery and clay sculpture,
whose perfection cannot fail to impress you. The pottery used to be
fired two-tiered furnaces, then painted,carved and encrusted. The
whole world outlook of the prehistoric farmers was expressed in the
ornament: the Land and Underground World, the Sky, the Sun, the Moon,
the Stars, the Plants, Animals and People. The ancient paintings speak
to us from the depth of centuries a forgotten language much as their
creators once adressed gods, now forgotten. Only they, old gods of
europeans understood this language of symbols and signs.
[Picture]
Observant people can see complete "texts" composed in ornaments: it is
raining, the grain is falling on the ground, it is sprouting, the ears
of the cornfield are turning toward the moisture of the sky... only
the step remained before the creation of of own system of written
language. Among the Tripolye symbols are more than 300 different
symbols and their blocks. Among them are some, known to ancient
Symerians: "the star of Ishtar", "house","barley" and other. But the
Tripolye civilisation disappeared before the system was turned into a
written language. The Tripolye plastics arts, namely portrait
sculpture, are unique masrerpieces. Though 55 centuries we are looked
at by women - old and young, with narrow of broad faces and
sophisticated haircuts; by solemn men, with beards and shaven heads,
big neses and wide-spread eyes.
[Picture]
The civilisation of Tripolye fascinates and attracts your attention
the more and more is discovered about it. It still holds many secrets,
but one thing is clear enough: the history of European civilisation
began at the time, when the red walls of Tavropolis were rising over
the River of the Dead, when people learned to bake bread and smelt
metall on the land, now called Ukraine.
Institute of Archaeology, NAS of Ukraine homepage:
http://www.cdv.kiev.ua/arch/
============================
Posted by Eugenius
UKRAINE: the Homeland Page
http://www.wu-wien.ac.at/groups/ukraine_hp
Ukrayins'ka Ideya page (in Ukrainian)
http://www.wu-wien.ac.at/groups/ukraine_hp/idea
Vladimir A. Butenko
> UKRAINE 6000 YEARS AGO
> http://www.cdv.kiev.ua/Ukr6000.html
>
> By Dr.Mykhailo Videiko,
> Institute of Archaeology, NAS of Ukraine.
>
> It still possible at the end of the XX th century to discover on the
> European continent gigantic cities, more ancient, than the Egyptian
> pyramids. The ancient Symerians used to answer the question "When the
> World was created ? "with " When people began to eat bread and smelt
> metall ". But what was in Europe happening in Europe when "everything
> was just beginning in Sumer?" Is it really true that here were living
> in caves and kurens, as in the Stone Age? Strange things are found in
> the European legends of the Copper Age: they they claim,that on the
> end of the World there is a River of the Deadon the other side of
> which the World of the Dead begins. Above it stands Tavropolis -
> literalle Bull City, guarded by the monsters responsible for carying
> the souls of the dead to the World of the Dead.
The city name itself, known only to Greeks, implies that even if for them
that city had already disappeared, it existed not so long before "polises"
started
to appear there (around the Black Sea) - i.e. in 6xx B.C. in the classic
chronology.
So, what on Earth made that guy think that city appeared in the Sumerian
epoch?! %-)
> Thus through historic
> memory some evidence on the existence of the city in Europe in the
> V-IV milleniums BC has survived!
V-VI milleniums? The prevoius words do not indicate how this conclusion
was made.
> In the center
> of the modern Ukraine from the East to West the Sinyukha river flows,
> which the Scythians used to call "the Dead Water" 2500 years ago.
Yes, at the same (aprx) time - 600th-500th B.C.
> Could
> it be the River of the Dead? But where was the ancient Tavropolis?
> Where are its ruins ? It should be older than Sumerian Ur and Babylon.
Why? By the time Scythians became known to the "civilized" world,
Sumerians were long forgotten...
The rest of the "article" describes the "Tripolye" culture - a very
interesting thing indeed, but the huge desire to move that culture back to
"V-IV milleniums BC" is sooooo funny :-)))
I just cannot understand why Mesopotamia is their target this time. The
"scientist" definitely does not know much about it - which makes these
parts of the article especially funny:
> several dozen cities of the Copper Age were discovered. The smallest
> of them occupies an area of 0,4 square kilometer, and the biggest one-
> near 4,5 square kilometers. The famous Ur in Mesopotamia at the
> beginning of the 3-rd millenium B.C. occupied near 0,9 sq.km...
The structure of Sumerian cities was completely different from that in
Tripolye. 0.9sq.km was, in the modern language, just the "downtown".
And at the beginning of the 3-rd millenium - it's hard to say not only if
Ur was still the "famous" city, it's hard to say if that city was still
Sumerian - by that time (in the classic chronology again), Sumerians
started to lose the "slow battle" to semitic tribes of Akkad...
> The
> first reaction of the archaeologists somewhat sceptical, sometimes
> negative: "it can't be so, because it's simply impossible".
Why? Everything is possible. The only impossible thing is to show any
evidence of the Tripoliye culture being older than many other culturies at
that place AT THAT time - i.e. - the middle of the 1st millenium B.C.
This does not make that culture any "worse", right? It's a very intersting
culture, indeed. And most likely, it did not disappear, but was absorbed
by many tribes that passed that land in 5th-2nd centures B.C., and it's
very likely that slavic people that appeared there afterwards, inherited
from it, too.
> Institute of Archaeology, NAS of Ukraine homepage:
> http://www.cdv.kiev.ua/arch/
Sure :-)
> ============================
> Posted by Eugenius
>
> UKRAINE: the Homeland Page
> http://www.wu-wien.ac.at/groups/ukraine_hp
>
> Ukrayins'ka Ideya page (in Ukrainian)
Javol, my comrad! The first ameoba was ukranian, too - those who do not
believe should ask the Institute of Bilology, NAS of Ukraine %-)))
--
Vladimir Butenko
Stalker Software, Inc.
Uzulo
Eugenius posted the following article:
> UKRAINE 6000 YEARS AGO
> http://www.cdv.kiev.ua/Ukr6000.html
>
> By Dr.Mykhailo Videiko,
> Institute of Archaeology, NAS of Ukraine.
>
> [...] Strange things are found in
> the European legends of the Copper Age: they they claim,that on the
> end of the World there is a River of the Deadon the other side of
> which the World of the Dead begins.
Which legends? At least minor references would have been very much
welcome...
> Above it stands Tavropolis -
> literalle Bull City, guarded by the monsters responsible for carying
> the souls of the dead to the World of the Dead. Thus through historic
> memory some evidence on the existence of the city in Europe in the
> V-IV milleniums BC has survived!
So that's what the word ``science'' means!.. "Strange things...,
found in the European legends...", turn miraculously to "evidence on
the existence of the city in Europe in the V-IV milleniums BC..."
WHAT, in the name of the immortal gods, points (1) to the IV-V
millenia & (2) to Europe?
> It's worth searching for this city
> somewhere along the border between a forest and a steppe, in so far as
> European farmers used ti regard steppe land as the "other world" since
> it was impossible to grow bread here and live normally. In the center
> of the modern Ukraine from the East to West the Sinyukha river flows,
> which the Scythians used to call "the Dead Water" 2500 years ago.Could
> it be the River of the Dead?
It COULD. So far, however, nothing indicates it ACTUALLY WAS the
``River of the Dead'' from the legends...
> But where was the ancient Tavropolis?
> Where are its ruins ? It should be older than Sumerian Ur and Babylon.
It could be a question: "was it older?.." Why in the affirmative
(almost imperative) right away?..
And, to my knowledge, nobody asserts Ur is the most ancient
Sumerian city. There were many others: Lagash, Uruk (where one of
the oldest clay tablets was found; #15000, layer Uruk-IV, Hermitage,
Saint-Petersburg), Shuruppak, Kish, Ka-Dingirra [The Gate of God/s],
the Sumeric name of what the Akkadians later called Bab-'Ilim...
> But it is difficult question to answer not so much because Ukrainian
> antiquties from 5000 years B.C. have been lost, but on the contrary
> too many have survived.
So we can bravely call the people of the Trypillya culture
"proto-Ukrainians", just because they were lucky enough to live
where 6000 after them the Ukrainians are living?..
> [...] Now it is the territory of
> Romania, Moldova and Ukraine, the peoples of which have inherited some
> elements of these ancient civilisation.
If the brilliant scholar could just mention some (elements, I
mean), I personally would have been almost happy...
> Further investigations should show
> what the gates of the legendary Tavropolis looked like.
So, despite the fact mentioned by the author himself, -- that the
Trypillya people had no writing, just pictography (which may be
wrong; maybe some texts would eventually be found) -- "we've found
the mysterious Tavropolis, no doubt"... Magnificent is the power of
scientific thought...
> [..., ...] Though 55 centuries we are looked
> at by women - old and young, with narrow of broad faces and
> sophisticated haircuts; by solemn men, with beards and shaven heads,
> big neses and wide-spread eyes.
It's a pity the photo represented on the web page is somewhat
monotone. Had there been a little more colour diversity, one could
have judged on the anthropological (racial) type of the Trypillians.
> The civilisation of Tripolye fascinates and attracts your attention
> the more and more is discovered about it. It still holds many secrets,
> but one thing is clear enough: the history of European civilisation
> began at the time, when the red walls of Tavropolis were rising over
> the River of the Dead, when people learned to bake bread and smelt
> metall on the land, now called Ukraine.
Just an analogy: some millenia later, the people of ancient Sumer
began making the same, invented the Cunics etc. in a land called
S(h)umer, now called Iraq or Bahrain or some such thing...
On the whole, though, the article is really very interesting. What
annoys me just a little, is the "free" handling/interpretation of
some facts by the authors...
--
Uzulo <ty...@cile.msk.su>
Ihorko
Just a bit Uzulo - Uzulo <ty...@cile.msk.su> writes:
:>
:>
:>Eugenius posted the following article:
:>
:>
:>> UKRAINE 6000 YEARS AGO
:>> http://www.cdv.kiev.ua/Ukr6000.html
:>>
:>> By Dr.Mykhailo Videiko,
:>> Institute of Archaeology, NAS of Ukraine.
:>>
[ ... it's worth to see the web page, it's in English ! ... ]
But, you people from the National Academy of Science, why "Tripolye" (the
russian name of the place)? Do other people in the world understand Russian
better than Ukrainian? Is Russian easier to pronounce, than Ukrainian? To
read? To write?
It's T R Y P I L L IA !
Ok, by me "Trypillya". Z-hoda.
[ ... Uzulo's assessment, as usual, last statement I'll comment ... ]
Hello, dear readers of soc.culture.europe! Nice to see you again.
If you really want to have a lot of fun, go to Russian or Ukrainian news
groups and read Uzulo's postings.
Must read Russian though ... :(
In a strange transliteration ... :(
What Uzulo posts here, is a very small part of his work. Just cut and pasted
parts of threads. Free and easy.
Now to annoyed a bit Uzulo:)
:>
:> On the whole, though, the article is really very interesting. What
:> annoys me just a little, is the "free" handling/interpretation of
:> some facts by the authors...
:>
:>
:>--
:> Uzulo <ty...@cile.msk.su>
:>
Yes, Uzulo, the theme is brought free and easy by the article. To make it
interesting to read. Even you, Uzulo, call it "really very interesting". Or
is it one of your jokes? Sorry, maybe, I'm a bit to boring person.
A bit amused
Ihorko
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| | | | | even when I'm joking.
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