JACK PALANCE REJECTS RUSSIAN AWARD
Trident
Trident
************************************************************
"JACK PALANCE REJECTS RUSSIAN AWARD"
Declaring "I'm Ukrainian, not Russian", Palance walks out of
Russian Film Festival in Hollywood
By Stephen Bandera, Friday, June 11, 2004, for June 20 English
language supplement of National Tribune (National'na Trybuna, NY)
(NT) - A week of "Russian Nights" in Los Angeles culminated with an awards
ceremony on April 22 at the prestigious Pacific Design Center in West
Hollywood. The gala event was held at the end of a weeklong "festival that
celebrates Russian contributions to the world of art." The program of
cinema, theater and music visual arts was sponsored in part by the Russian
Ministry of Culture and enjoyed the support of Russian president Vladimir
Putin.
Scheduled to receive "narodney artyst" awards (cleverly translated as "the
Russian People's Choice Award") were two Oscar winning actors: Dustin
Hoffman and Jack Palance - both of whom trace their roots to Ukraine.
In accepting his award, Dustin Hoffman noted that his grandparents came
from "Kiev, Russia" and expressed gratitude to the "Russian people" for
helping defeat Germany. He thanked them for saving his grandmother who
otherwise "may have ended up as a bar of soap."
Next in line for the Russian government's highest artistic award was Jack
Palance. Born Walter Palahniuk in Pennsylvania in 1918, Palance won the
Academy Award in 1992 for his memorable portrayal of Curly in "City
Slickers". Palance, proud as a Kozak of his Ukrainian heritage, is
chairman of the Hollywood Trident Foundation.
After being introduced, Palance said "I feel like I walked into the wrong
room by mistake. I think that Russian film is interesting, but I have
nothing to do with Russia or Russian film. My parents were born in
Ukraine: I'm Ukrainian. I'm not Russian. So, excuse me, but I don't
belong here. It's best if we leave."
Palance and his entourage proceeded to get up and go. He was accompanied
by four other guests that included his wife Elaine, and the Hollywood
Trident Foundation's president, Peter Borisow. Palance refused to accept
the award, even in private, or to view "72 Meters", the movie being
screened as the festival finale.
Speaking from Los Angeles, Borisow commented on Hoffman's statements:
"I don't think it's necessarily Hoffman's fault. I think it's tragic that he
doesn't even know his own family history. His ignorance of the basic facts
is shocking. That Hoffman lends himself, hopefully unwittingly, to
denigration of Ukrainians (and thus of himself), as he did by endorsing a
festival that featured the highly offensive and racist movie '72 Meters'
is very disappointing."
Borisow is referring to Vladmir Khotinenko's 2003 film "Syemdesyat-dva
metra." A drama surrounding events on the submarine "Slavianka", the film
portrays Ukrainians as bumbling fools and repeatedly refers to Ukrainians
with the racist pejorative "kh" word. As part of the film's plot
development, the Ukrainian submarine's Russian officers refuse allegiance
to newly independent Ukraine, steal the ship and sail it to Russia.
"This is a continuation of a centuries old effort to invent a history and
culture for Russia by hijacking first the Ukrainian church, then Ukrainian
history and finally Ukrainian culture," Borisow said. Borisow considered
the festival to be part of a "coordinated, worldwide campaign to promote
Russia and Russian culture and, in so doing, to make Ukraine seem part and
parcel of Russia. "I'm certain that in Russia, Jack's acceptance of the
mislabeled award would have been sold as his accepting being a 'National
Artist' of Russia," according to Borisow. "Jack is very proud to be
Ukrainian and will not let anyone hijack his name or persona," he said.
In total, twenty films were screened at the Pacific Design Center's
Silver Screen Theatre including Ukrainian filmmaker Oleksander
Dovzhenko's "Aerograd" (1935). The festival program did not mention
that Dovzhenko was Ukrainian, and instead described him as "the son
of illiterate peasants" who "incorporates elements of peasant lore and
pastoral tradition."
"This latest incident is just another part of a long history of genocide
that killed 10 million Ukrainians in 1933 and continues in more subtle
form to this day - all of it still actively promoted and financed by
Russia," Borisow said. Putin knows there can be no Russian Empire
without Ukraine, so he is pushing the assault from all angles: military,
industrial, energy, economic, religious and cultural.
In addition to Russia's Ministry of Culture, other sponsors of "Russian
Nights" included East-West Foundation for Culture and Education, LA
Weekly, Panorama Media, 7 Arts, Adelphia, Rodnik Vodka, Samuel
Adams Beer, Movieline's Hollywood Life, IN! Magazine and the
National Bartenders School. The festival was organized by the Stas
Namin Centre.
The festival's website includes letters of greeting from actors Leonardo
DiCaprio, Liv Tyler and producer-director Francis Ford
Coppola. Previously held once in Germany in 2003, "Russian Nights" are
scheduled to descend upon New York between October 23 and 30 later
this year. (NT) (END)
The Black Monk
> Kudos for Jack. A role model for all you Ukrainian sovoks.
Yes, good for Palahniuk. After the way the organizers of the festival
dealt with Dovzhenko and his background, they certainly deserved what
P. dished out. Now if someone would teach them a lesson about Mykola
Hohol...
regards,
BM
Teodor
Slawko
families, and they were thought about the "Family roots-tree and know
the history why their predecessors had to leave the country to survive"
As Polahniuk or Jack Palance had the courage to say it was very noble of
him to give support to Ukrainians. Not to many care to admit that, who
they are or where their families came from, because they are afraid it
might hurt them professionally. Knowing how Ukrainians were
recognized as immigants up to middle of 20centure: most not all and to
what country did they immigrated too, they were called Russian's, Polish
or Austrians and many other nationalities. And if they insisted that
they were Ukrainians they had hard time to proove their birth right.
Because not to many people in other countries knew much about Ukraine or
cared about it, as even now at present they try and give hard time to
Ukraine and Ukrainians. Because many countries don't want Ukraine to be
independet and they do everything in their power to bring it down to the
same as it was in the past few centures for their benefit. Knowing who
you are and know your family roots we should be proud off and not let
some-body or some-one rob us of our heredity,"Heritage" Peace to you
all.
Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
> wyn...@idirect.com (Trident) wrote in message news:<8b72a662.04061...@posting.google.com>...
>
>>Kudos for Jack. A role model for all you Ukrainian sovoks.
>
> Yes, good for Palahniuk. After the way the organizers of the festival
> dealt with Dovzhenko and his background, they certainly deserved what
> P. dished out. Now if someone would teach them a lesson about Mykola
> Hohol...
>
> regards,
>
> BM
>
background of the festival operators.
Do you really think that they would be willing to learn.
Or actually that they don't already know.
--
Rostyk
Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
> On 11 Jun 2004 21:05:01 -0700, cherni...@hotmail.com (The Black Monk) wrote:
>
>>wyn...@idirect.com (Trident) wrote in message news:<8b72a662.04061...@posting.google.com>...
>>
>>>Kudos for Jack. A role model for all you Ukrainian sovoks.
>>
>>Yes, good for Palahniuk. After the way the organizers of the festival
>>dealt with Dovzhenko and his background, they certainly deserved what
>>P. dished out. Now if someone would teach them a lesson about Mykola
>>Hohol...
>
> You're kidding right? Even if you are, it's still terminally stupid.
>
> DK
>
Yes. It's terminally stupid, because it's FUTILE.
Brody
D.K. wrote:
> Correct. Futile, trying to prove that 2x2=5; futile arguing that
> Pushkin was a great African poet; and futile insiting that Gogol'
> was not a greatest Russian writer ever lived.
>
> DK
>
Gosh ! I did not realize that. Russia's greatest writer ever was
Ukrainian.
Slawko
us. Its to dam bad that Russia'ns are unable to get rid of oposer's like
in the old day's "Gulags or Sibiria" change their names, body, mind and
soul with torture, hunger or just shoot them as they use to
do in the past. Good things don't last forever. Glad some
think different and seen the light.
Brody
D.K. wrote:
> That's because at a time, there hardly was such a thing.
>
> Besides being born In Malorussia and living there until he
> was 19 yo, the guy has had nothing to do with what today's
> nationalists imagine. IIRC, he never went back, never had to
> speak that dialect of Russian language (the term "ukrainian"
> did not exist then) and never wrote anything in it.
>
> But yes, he was the greatest, and IMHO only Pushkin's prose
> can stand by as anything comparable.
>
> DK
All your preceeding distortions aside, it is refreshing to see a Russian
acknowledge that Hohol was Ukrainian.
Slawko
live during Tsarest or Stalin times,it was forbidden for any
intellectual to choose anything but to comform if they wanted continue
their life's or they were goner's dead meat. Even Stalin knew better
that he couldn't get rid of "Ethnic Ukrainians" or the rest of countries
in Soviet Union. Molorosia it was Tsars dream to void
trace of Kyiven-Rus for good whe he changed the name from Moscow Kingdom
to Russia.But it was only dream that didn't come true. Ukraine was and
still is in Kyiven-Rus and thats Kyiv and it belongs to Urainians and
the World learning the truth now more then ever. Whether Russia'ns or
whoever likes it or not Long live Ukraine.
Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
> On Sat, 12 Jun 2004 12:50:44 -0400, "Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj"
> <urj...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
>
> Correct. Futile, trying to prove that 2x2=5; futile arguing that
> Pushkin was a great African poet; and futile insiting that Gogol'
> was not a greatest Russian writer ever lived.
>
> DK
>
No. Futile, trying to convince Petukhov and friends that
the US Moon landings did take place. Futile, trying to
convince the Flat Earth Society that the earth is really
a globular lump. Futile, convincing the Inquisition that
the earth travels around the sun.
--
Rostyk
The Black Monk
To DK about Gogol:
About Gogol:
"Of cossack descent, was born in the region of Poltava. Gogol's father
was a Ukrainian-language playwright, and minor Ukrainian literary
figures visited the house (one of whom, Vasyl Kapnist, proclaimed in a
way reminiscent of Mozart's prediction of Beethoven's future genius,
that the
5 year old Mykola would one day have "world-wide" influence. Kapnist
afterwards settled in Berlin and spent much of his life lobbying the
Prussians to invade Russia and liberate Ukraine).
Hohol planned to teach history in Kyiv, Taras Bulba being a
by-product of his historical interest. In a letter to his friend
Maksymovych (written in Ukrainian, or course) around the time that he
was planning to return to Ukraine, Hohol urged his friend to also
leave Russia (Hohol referred to it as katzapiyu) and to return to
Kyiv, whose history is "ours, not theirs" (radical stuff in the days
when officially Ukraine and Russia were one and the same). He hoped
to write a thorough history of Ukraine. Hohol was said to have,
particularly in his early years in Petersburg, a fondness for
occasionally obscene anti-Russian anecdotes. Thse made their way into
some of the
dikanka stories, with phrases such as Storcheno referring to
"prokliaty katsapy", breshe yak suchy moskal, etc.
In Paris, Gogol wrote to his Polish friend, the poet Zaleski, in
Ukrainian (Zaleski was a Pole from Ukraine), calling him "a very close
countryman, closer by heart than by hand." Indeed, in Paris Gogol
mixed mostly with Polish emigres and endeared them with his
anti-Russian hostility. According to a letter written by Zaleski to a
Polish scholar:
" About 25 years ago the famous Russian (sic) writer Gogol visited
Paris. He was very friendly with Mickiewicz and me...we gathered
often in the evenings for literary and political discussion.
Naturally, we talked about the Russians (moskalach) who were loathsome
to us and to him. The question of their Finnish origin was frequently
debated. Gogol confirmed this view with all his Little Russian
fervor. He had with him a splendid collection of folk songs in
different Slavic tongues. He wrote an excellent paper on the Finnish
origin of Russians which he read to us. In it he showed on the basis
of detailed comparisons between Czech, Serbian and UKrainian songs
with Great Russian songs the glaring differences in the spirit,
customs and morals between the Great Russians and other Slavic
peoples. He chose a diffeent song to characterize a different human
feeling: on the one hand, our Slavic song, delightful and tender, and
along with it a morose, wild and almost cannibalistic Russian song,
just like a Finnish one. My dear countryman, you must imagine how
pleased Mickiewicz and I were with this article."
You can add to that letters written by contemporary Russians, who
considered Gogol a foreigner, even editorial comments (one Russian
critic was offended at Gogol's view of St. Petersburg, asking how dare
a foreigner come to Russia and insult the Russian people in such a
way). The contemporary Russian critic Nikolai Polevoi wrote about
gogol that "we, with our Russian mind, do not understand this bombast"
Hohol/Gogol had an ambivalent, love/hate relationship to Russia. He
proclaimed himself a servant of the tsars at one point, while at
another
moved to Italy, which reminded him of Ukraine, and contemplated
converting
to Catholicism. He was a troubled genius, and to an extent his
troubles reflected that of Ukraine struggling to find a modern
identity within the Russian empire.
There is an excellent book by George Luckyj of Harvard explicitly
about Mykola Hohol.
So yeah, Hohol was Ukrainian.
regards,
BM
The Black Monk
other people's posts). If he responds to me would you be so kind as
to repost his message by replying to it?
Thanks,
BM
D.K.
Maybe you can consider not sucking on Google's tit and instead
finding your ISP's newsserver address, getting yourself a newsreader
and reading Usenet the way it was designed - fast, convenient and
without silly web interfaces.
DK
D.K.
So yeah, your post is typical "samostijna" nationalist
bullshit. When Russians engage in the same idiotic exercises, they
at least make fun of themselves while at it ("Russia is a homeland
of elephants").
The idiocy of it stands out particularly well when you guys keep
using that "Mykola" moniker - even though Gogol' never called
himself by this name. But of course you know better what's good
for him :-)
So, to make things accessible for you:
- Gogol' was Russian, not Ukrainian _writer_.
- Pushkin was Russian, not African poet.
- Okudzhava was Russian, not Georgian poet and singer.
- Bagration was Russian, not Georgian general.
- Barclay de Tolly was Russian, not Scottish general.
- Serge Gainsbourg was French, not Jewish or Russian singer.
- Catherine the Great was Rusian, not German empress.
- Napoleon Bonaporte was French, not Corsican emperor.
Feel free to add to the list - it is essentially endless.
DK
CKOMOPOX
"D.K." <d...@no.email.thankstospam.net> wrote in message
news:hbapc09j3ehk6bqb7...@4ax.com...
...Another example of arrogant DKie-boy blessing mortal human beings with
his presence?
Go spend your time with "vi" ya friggin imbecile and forget the silly web
interfaces.
CKOMOPOX
> On Sun, 13 Jun 2004 20:16:41 GMT, "CKOMOPOX" <slave...@gulags.ru> wrote:
>
> >
> >"D.K." <d...@no.email.thankstospam.net> wrote in message
> >news:hbapc09j3ehk6bqb7...@4ax.com...
> >> On 13 Jun 2004 10:47:40 -0700, cherni...@hotmail.com (The Black
Monk)
> >wrote:
> >>
> >> >Rostyk - DK's posts don't appear on google groups (I read them through
> >> >other people's posts). If he responds to me would you be so kind as
> >> >to repost his message by replying to it?
> >>
> >> Maybe you can consider not sucking on Google's tit and instead
> >> finding your ISP's newsserver address, getting yourself a newsreader
> >> and reading Usenet the way it was designed - fast, convenient and
> >> without silly web interfaces.
> >>
> >> DK
> >>
> >
> >...Another example of arrogant DKie-boy blessing mortal human beings with
> >his presence?
>
> FTP =/= HTTP. Internet would be a better place if everyone
> understood it.
>
> >Go spend your time with "vi" ya friggin imbecile and forget the silly web
> >interfaces.
>
> though - it requires some ability to learn.
>
> DK
>
Compile this,
Sorry fella. VI requires no ability, just spending some time on the inane.
I guess you're an "edlin" expert too...ya Unix eunuch/pathetic loser.
CKOMOPOX
Gogol was Italian, not Russian. He shit on Russia and left for a warmer
climate.
Brody
So the list of famous Russians who were not ethnic Russians is endless.
I would have not said that but I will take your word for it.
Are there any famous Russians who are ethnic Russians ??
Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
> D.K. wrote:
>
>> So yeah, your post is typical "samostijna" nationalist bullshit. When
>> Russians engage in the same idiotic exercises, they
>> at least make fun of themselves while at it ("Russia is a homeland
>> of elephants").
............................
>> So, to make things accessible for you:
.......................
......................
>> - Pushkin was Russian, not African poet.
......................
>> - Serge Gainsbourg was French, not Jewish or Russian singer.
>> - Catherine the Great was Rusian, not German empress. - Napoleon
>> - Bonaporte was French, not Corsican emperor.
>>
>> Feel free to add to the list - it is essentially endless.
- Stalin was Russian not Georgian ruler
- Lenin was Russian not ???
- Barishnikov was United Statesian not Russian
- Ustinov was English
- Einstein was United Statesian
- Beria was Russian
- Kaganovich was Russian
- Sikorski, Sarnoff were United Statesian
- Yevtushenko is United Statesian
>>
>> DK
>>
>
> So the list of famous Russians who were not ethnic Russians is endless.
> I would have not said that but I will take your word for it.
>
> Are there any famous Russians who are ethnic Russians ??
Perhaps Gorbachov and Yeltzin, Malenkov, Ivan (the terrible),
Rasputin, Zhirinovski ...
I don't know where to clasiffy Trotzki. Russian or Argentinian?
--
Rostyk
>
GRycar
Ignorance does as ignorance is, or perhaps you are simply stupid because of
your Russian education.
More to the point, Hohol not only spoke Ukrainian but actualy disliked Russia
and her culture of slaver and death. More specificaly, Hohol was not Russias
greatest writer but simply the father of Russian literature as first noted by
Dostoyevsky.
In other words the basis of 19th century Ryssian literature is Ukrainian!
I trust that you read little of Holols work if at all.
If you have, which is at best conjectural, then you would notice that he writes
about Ukrainians quite differewntly than he writes about Russians - yes he
wrote more on Ukraininan subjects then on Russian and when he wrote about
Russians it was always from a Ukrainian perspective.
Do read his Terrible Vengence, Taras Bulba and other Ukrainian tales and
compare the personalities in these stories with the pathetic characters and out
and out criminals in the Overcoat, Inspector General and Dead Souls. He
basicaly ridicules Russian culture of stupidity and criminality.
For Hohols, Ukrainians can and do make decisions, are free men who are capable
of wisdom and tragedy, in thr Greek understanding and fail as a result of moral
flaws but never because of lack of streanght or Character. The Russians for
Hohol are basicaly slaves, pathetic - as Akaky Akakaevich, or simply criminals
driven by greed and Asiatic lusts.
Hohol lacked the courage, fortitude and ability to reason and understan as
Sevchenko and as such submitted to Russian tyrrany by writing in Russian
instead of Ukrainian.
More to the point, He had no market for Ukrainian since the language was
prohobited, but non the less his values. subject matter and litrary pusuit was
strictly Ukrainian.
GR
Brody
Funny, I thought there would have been more.
Brody
D.K. wrote:
> On Mon, 14 Jun 2004 02:36:11 GMT, Brody <jbr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>D.K. wrote:
>
>
>>>So, to make things accessible for you:
>>>
>>>- Gogol' was Russian, not Ukrainian _writer_.
>>>- Pushkin was Russian, not African poet.
>>>- Okudzhava was Russian, not Georgian poet and singer.
>>>- Bagration was Russian, not Georgian general.
>>>- Barclay de Tolly was Russian, not Scottish general.
>>>- Serge Gainsbourg was French, not Jewish or Russian singer.
>>>- Catherine the Great was Rusian, not German empress.
>>>- Napoleon Bonaporte was French, not Corsican emperor.
>>>
>>>Feel free to add to the list - it is essentially endless.
>>
>
>>So the list of famous Russians who were not ethnic Russians is endless.
>>I would have not said that but I will take your word for it.
>
>
> Unlike all the so-called nationalists (racists in disguise),
> I don't give a flying fuck who was ethnic this or that.
Considering the facts, I do not blame you.
> It's not
> the "blood" when a person was born that matters, it's what the
> person _was_ while living.
>
>
>>Are there any famous Russians who are ethnic Russians ??
>
>
> No. Not a single one if we are to listen to various
> hatred-filled nationalsts.
>
> DK
>
CKOMOPOX
Was that with or without the ice pick in his head?
Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
Oh, There are! ;) Of course. ;)
The Black Monk
>
> So yeah, your post is typical "samostijna" nationalist
> bullshit.
That certainly is an interesting way of labelling the truth. Your
statement can just as easily be labelled "antisamostiyna (Russian)
nationalist bullshit".
> When Russians engage in the same idiotic exercises, they
> at least make fun of themselves while at it ("Russia is a homeland
> of elephants").
>
> The idiocy of it stands out particularly well when you guys keep
> using that "Mykola" moniker - even though Gogol' never called
> himself by this name.
How do you know? It's pretty likely when he was still living in
Ukraine.
> But of course you know better what's good
> for him :-)
That's out of my hands.
> So, to make things accessible for you:
>
> - Gogol' was Russian, not Ukrainian _writer_.
He was a Ukrainian who wrote in the Russian language. On this
newsgroup do you consider yourself an English writer?
> - Pushkin was Russian, not African poet.
Was Pushkin's father an African (Abyssinian) playwright as Hohol's was
a Ukrainian one?
Was Pushkin born in Abyssinia and spend his childhood there as Hohol
was/did in Ukraine?
Did Pushkin as a kid write in the Abyssinian language as Hohol did in
the Ukrainian?
Were themes of his "native" Abyssinia dominant in Pushkin's early
works as Ukrainian themes were in Hohol's?
Indeed, the American scholar Shapiro has noted that Hohol's Dikanka
stories are directly related to the Ukrainian vertep theatrical
tradition.
Did contemporary Russian critics notice an African accent in Pushkin's
Russian as Hohol's Russian readers did in his works?
Sorry, but comparing Hohol's Ukrainian-ness to Pushkin's African-ness
is just stupid.
A better comparison would be the Polish author of "Heart of Darkness",
Joseph Conrad. All of his works were written in English, and unlike
Hohol he did not even write about his Poland that he left after
adolescence. Yet the English never deny that he was a Pole. Why so
greedy, DK?
Here's a letter written by the "Russian" Hohol to his friend in
Moscow, Mikhailo Maksymovich, in July 1833, when he was planning to
obtain a post as a historian in Kyiv:
"Give up your lousy Russia (referered to in the letter as "katsapiu")
and go to the Hetmanate. I myself am thinking of doing the same and
going off from here in the coming year. We really are fools, if you
give it any thought. For what and for whom are we sacrificing
everything? LEt's go! How much stuff we're going to collect there!
We'll dig up everything...I have now begun work on a history of our
unique, poor Ukraine. Nothing is so soothing as [the writing of]
history. My thoughts are beginning to flow more quietly...How I would
like to be with you now and to look them [Ukrainian folk songs] over
together in the quivering candlelight between walls with books and the
dust of books, with the avidity of a Jew counting his coins. My joy,
my life! You, songs, how I love you! What are all the stale
chronicles, in which I now burrow, compared to these ringing vital
chronicles!...Imagine, I too was thinking: "There, there! To Kiev!
To ancient, beautiful Kiev! The city is ours, not theirs: am I not
right?"
Check into the book by Robert Maguire, Exploring Gogol, published by
Stanford. MacGuire noted that Hohol never showed any interest in
Russian history : )
BM
CKOMOPOX
> On 14 Jun 2004 19:16:52 -0700, cherni...@hotmail.com (The Black Monk)
wrote:
>
> >Sorry, but comparing Hohol's Ukrainian-ness to Pushkin's African-ness
> >is just stupid.
>
>
> >A better comparison would be the Polish author of "Heart of Darkness",
> >Joseph Conrad. All of his works were written in English, and unlike
> >Hohol he did not even write about his Poland that he left after
> >adolescence. Yet the English never deny that he was a Pole. Why so
> >greedy, DK?
>
> "Conrad, Joseph (1857-1924), Polish-born English novelist, considered
> to be among the great modern English writers". QED. Now, please
> admit that Gogol' was an Ukrainian-born Russian writer.
>
> >Here's a letter written by the "Russian" Hohol to his friend in
> >Moscow, Mikhailo Maksymovich, in July 1833, when he was planning to
> >obtain a post as a historian in Kyiv:
> >
> >"Give up your lousy Russia (referered to in the letter as "katsapiu")
> >and go to the Hetmanate. I myself am thinking of doing the same and
> >going off from here in the coming year. We really are fools, if you
> >give it any thought. For what and for whom are we sacrificing
> >everything? LEt's go! How much stuff we're going to collect there!
> >We'll dig up everything...I have now begun work on a history of our
> >unique, poor Ukraine. Nothing is so soothing as [the writing of]
> >history. My thoughts are beginning to flow more quietly...How I would
> >like to be with you now and to look them [Ukrainian folk songs] over
> >together in the quivering candlelight between walls with books and the
> >dust of books, with the avidity of a Jew counting his coins. My joy,
> >my life! You, songs, how I love you! What are all the stale
> >chronicles, in which I now burrow, compared to these ringing vital
> >chronicles!...Imagine, I too was thinking: "There, there! To Kiev!
> >To ancient, beautiful Kiev! The city is ours, not theirs: am I not
> >right?"
> >
> >Check into the book by Robert Maguire, Exploring Gogol, published by
> >Stanford. MacGuire noted that Hohol never showed any interest in
> >Russian history : )
>
> prove that Gogol' was feeling deeply Russian. Both sides are pure
> propaganda and cannot change the past - whether you like it
> or not, it just happened that Unkrainian-born Gogol' ended up
> being Russian writer.
>
> DK
I thought he ended up being a Ukranian-born Italian?
>
> P.S. Sorry but after this post I am back to enforcing X-No-Archive
> again. If you want to see what people post on Usenet, you've got
> to use the medium, not some archival surrogate of it.
>
The Black Monk
"CKOMOPOX" <slave...@gulags.ru> wrote in message news:<b7Hzc.1888$0b.16...@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>...
> "D.K." <d...@no.email.thankstospam.net> wrote in message
> news:684tc0p4fml7osq89...@4ax.com...
> > On 14 Jun 2004 19:16:52 -0700, cherni...@hotmail.com (The Black Monk)
> wrote:
> >
> > >Sorry, but comparing Hohol's Ukrainian-ness to Pushkin's African-ness
> > >is just stupid.
> >
> > I was not comparing. I insisted it was _equally_ stupid!
But given the total difference between the two cases, it is exactly
the equality which is stupid.
> > >A better comparison would be the Polish author of "Heart of Darkness",
> > >Joseph Conrad. All of his works were written in English, and unlike
> > >Hohol he did not even write about his Poland that he left after
> > >adolescence. Yet the English never deny that he was a Pole. Why so
> > >greedy, DK?
> >
> > A fine example indeed. My copy of Encarta says:
> > "Conrad, Joseph (1857-1924), Polish-born English novelist, considered
> > to be among the great modern English writers". QED.
From my Britannica ready reference:
orig. Józef Teodor Konrad Korzeniowski; (1857-1924) Polish-British
novelist and short-story writer.
His father was a Polish patriot who was exiled to northern Russia, and
Conrad was an orphan by 12. He managed to join the French merchant
marine, and in 1878 the British merchant navy, where he pursued a
career for most of the next 15 years; his naval experiences would
provide the material for most of his novels. Though he knew little
English before he was 20, he became one of the master English
stylists. He is noted for tales in rich prose of dangerous life at sea
and in exotic places, settings he used to reveal hisreal concern, his
deeply pessimistic vision of the human struggle. Of his many novels,
which include Almayer's Folly (1895), An Outcast of the Islands
(1896), The Nigger of the "Narcissus" (1897), Lord Jim (1900), Typhoon
(1902), Nostromo (1904), The Secret Agent (1907), Under Western Eyes
(1911), Chance (1912), and Victory (1915), several are regarded as
masterpieces. He also published seven story collections; the novella
"Heart of Darkness" (1902) is his most famous shorter work. Conrad's
influence on later novelists has been profound.
Conrad's ethnicity is here not denied. Hohol deserves a similar
biography, though you as well as Russian nationalists try to hide this
obvious fact.
BTW from the Encarta quote one would not be led to believe that Conrad
was sonmehow an Englishman from Poland. Claiming that he was simply a
Ukrainian-born Russian writer is misleading in that it leads to the
incorrect impression that Hohol was one of many ethnic Russians from
Ukraine (Bulgakov, Berdiev), when clearly he was ethnic Ukrainian, the
son of a Ukrainian-language playwright.
> > Now, please
> > admit that Gogol' was an Ukrainian-born Russian writer.
He was a Ukrainian writer, who wrote in Russian, just as Conrad was a
Pole who wrote in English.
No, both sides are correct. Hohol was torn about his identity, hating
Russia and then loving it, which I noted in my first response to you
There is a similar phenomenon in some of the psychiatric literature
about acculturating immigrants and national minorities in their
relationship to the dominant culture. The question is - was he simply
a Russian writer or was he a Ukrainian writer who wrote in Russian.
Identity issues later in life do not erase his origins.
> > and cannot change the past - whether you like it
> > or not, it just happened that Unkrainian-born Gogol' ended up
> > being Russian writer.
> >
> > DK
>
> I thought he ended up being a Ukranian-born Italian?
>
> >
> > P.S. Sorry but after this post I am back to enforcing X-No-Archive
> > again. If you want to see what people post on Usenet, you've got
> > to use the medium, not some archival surrogate of it.
Sorry that is not my profession, and as for hobbies I'm not into
technical stuff, I'm into culture, politics, and history. I'll just
keep talking to you through those who don't have strange hang-ups
about archiving.
regards,
BM
> >
Slawko
Slawko
In Kognito
> Kudos for Jack. A role model for all you Ukrainian sovoks.
To most Americans, Ukraine was, is and for a long time, will be part
of Russia, if they ever heard of it.
Whose fault is it? Armenians do not have that problem.
>
> Trident
>
> ************************************************************
>
> "JACK PALANCE REJECTS RUSSIAN AWARD"
> Declaring "I'm Ukrainian, not Russian", Palance walks out of
> Russian Film Festival in Hollywood
>
> By Stephen Bandera, Friday, June 11, 2004, for June 20 English
> language supplement of National Tribune (National'na Trybuna, NY)
>
> (NT) - A week of "Russian Nights" in Los Angeles culminated with an awards
> ceremony on April 22 at the prestigious Pacific Design Center in West
> Hollywood. The gala event was held at the end of a weeklong "festival that
> celebrates Russian contributions to the world of art." The program of
> cinema, theater and music visual arts was sponsored in part by the Russian
> Ministry of Culture and enjoyed the support of Russian president Vladimir
> Putin.
>
> Scheduled to receive "narodney artyst" awards (cleverly translated as "the
> Russian People's Choice Award") were two Oscar winning actors: Dustin
> Hoffman and Jack Palance - both of whom trace their roots to Ukraine.
>
> In accepting his award, Dustin Hoffman noted that his grandparents came
> from "Kiev, Russia" and expressed gratitude to the "Russian people" for
> helping defeat Germany. He thanked them for saving his grandmother who
> otherwise "may have ended up as a bar of soap."
>
> Next in line for the Russian government's highest artistic award was Jack
> Palance. Born Walter Palahniuk in Pennsylvania in 1918, Palance won the
> Academy Award in 1992 for his memorable portrayal of Curly in "City
> Slickers". Palance, proud as a Kozak of his Ukrainian heritage, is
> chairman of the Hollywood Trident Foundation.
>
> After being introduced, Palance said "I feel like I walked into the wrong
> room by mistake. I think that Russian film is interesting, but I have
> nothing to do with Russia or Russian film. My parents were born in
> Ukraine: I'm Ukrainian. I'm not Russian. So, excuse me, but I don't
> belong here. It's best if we leave."
>
> Palance and his entourage proceeded to get up and go. He was accompanied
> by four other guests that included his wife Elaine, and the Hollywood
> Trident Foundation's president, Peter Borisow. Palance refused to accept
> the award, even in private, or to view "72 Meters", the movie being
> screened as the festival finale.
>
> Speaking from Los Angeles, Borisow commented on Hoffman's statements:
> "I don't think it's necessarily Hoffman's fault. I think it's tragic that he
> doesn't even know his own family history. His ignorance of the basic facts
> is shocking. That Hoffman lends himself, hopefully unwittingly, to
> denigration of Ukrainians (and thus of himself), as he did by endorsing a
> festival that featured the highly offensive and racist movie '72 Meters'
> is very disappointing."
>
> Borisow is referring to Vladmir Khotinenko's 2003 film "Syemdesyat-dva
> metra." A drama surrounding events on the submarine "Slavianka", the film
> portrays Ukrainians as bumbling fools and repeatedly refers to Ukrainians
> with the racist pejorative "kh" word. As part of the film's plot
> development, the Ukrainian submarine's Russian officers refuse allegiance
> to newly independent Ukraine, steal the ship and sail it to Russia.
>
> "This is a continuation of a centuries old effort to invent a history and
> culture for Russia by hijacking first the Ukrainian church, then Ukrainian
> history and finally Ukrainian culture," Borisow said. Borisow considered
> the festival to be part of a "coordinated, worldwide campaign to promote
> Russia and Russian culture and, in so doing, to make Ukraine seem part and
> parcel of Russia. "I'm certain that in Russia, Jack's acceptance of the
> mislabeled award would have been sold as his accepting being a 'National
> Artist' of Russia," according to Borisow. "Jack is very proud to be
> Ukrainian and will not let anyone hijack his name or persona," he said.
>
> In total, twenty films were screened at the Pacific Design Center's
> Silver Screen Theatre including Ukrainian filmmaker Oleksander
> Dovzhenko's "Aerograd" (1935). The festival program did not mention
> that Dovzhenko was Ukrainian, and instead described him as "the son
> of illiterate peasants" who "incorporates elements of peasant lore and
> pastoral tradition."
>
> "This latest incident is just another part of a long history of genocide
> that killed 10 million Ukrainians in 1933 and continues in more subtle
> form to this day - all of it still actively promoted and financed by
> Russia," Borisow said. Putin knows there can be no Russian Empire
> without Ukraine, so he is pushing the assault from all angles: military,
> industrial, energy, economic, religious and cultural.
>
> In addition to Russia's Ministry of Culture, other sponsors of "Russian
> Nights" included East-West Foundation for Culture and Education, LA
> Weekly, Panorama Media, 7 Arts, Adelphia, Rodnik Vodka, Samuel
> Adams Beer, Movieline's Hollywood Life, IN! Magazine and the
> National Bartenders School. The festival was organized by the Stas
> Namin Centre.
>
> The festival's website includes letters of greeting from actors Leonardo
> DiCaprio, Liv Tyler and producer-director Francis Ford
> Coppola. Previously held once in Germany in 2003, "Russian Nights" are
> scheduled to descend upon New York between October 23 and 30 later
> this year. (NT) (END)
Trident
> wyn...@idirect.com (Trident) wrote in message news:<8b72a662.04061...@posting.google.com>...
> > Kudos for Jack. A role model for all you Ukrainian sovoks.
>
> To most Americans, Ukraine was, is and for a long time, will be part
> of Russia, if they ever heard of it.
>
> Whose fault is it?
In a nutshell: Russocentric Eastern European study departments at
various Universities - going back a couple of hundred years. Great
Russian chauvanism, which many Russian historians and writers freely
admit existed and continues to exist, has stayed around a bit too
long. What you have is a a distasteful by-product from Tsarist times
- which mutated, survived and in fact thrived even during the times of
the USSR. In its current form, it holds the minds of many Ukrainians
and keeps them ignorant Russian boot lickers.
Armenians do not have that problem.
They don't?
Listen: it's Ukraine's turn to inject a little bit of political
correctness into the world. There's nothing wrong with doing so.
Trident
In Kognito
Unless you have something happening there that will put the country on
CNN or NBC, most will not know about it.
Unless you conduct a nationwide PR campaign.
> DK, did Ukrainian's have much choice what language to speak or where to
> live during Tsarest or Stalin times,it was forbidden for any
> intellectual to choose anything but to comform if they wanted continue
> their life's or they were goner's dead meat. Even Stalin knew better
> that he couldn't get rid of "Ethnic Ukrainians" or the rest of countries
> in Soviet Union. Molorosia it was Tsars dream to void
> trace of Kyiven-Rus for good whe he changed the name from Moscow Kingdom
> to Russia.But it was only dream that didn't come true. Ukraine was and
> still is in Kyiven-Rus and thats Kyiv and it belongs to Urainians and
> the World learning the truth now more then ever. Whether Russia'ns or
> whoever likes it or not Long live Ukraine.
In Kognito
> various Universities - going back a couple of hundred years.
Are they the ones that created ( or influenced creating) the Hollywood
movies and the US news, text books, where all were referring to USSR
as Russia and all people there as Russians? I think it was just plain
laziness. It is the same as the UK. IF there were not so many Irish
people in the US, and as many Scotts, Americans wold not know the
difference between GB and England.
In those countries in Europe where Scots and Irish are not well known,
they are all "English" to the locals.
In the USSR a Scotsman would probably be "Anglichanin" as no one used
the word "Britanets".
Ty Gal
"Trident" wrote:
> In Kognito wrote:
> > To most Americans, Ukraine was, is and for a long time, will be part
> > of Russia, if they ever heard of it.
> > Whose fault is it?
> In a nutshell: Russocentric Eastern European study departments at
> various Universities - going back a couple of hundred years.
It just reflected the importance Russia had then for European politics
and, to a much lesser extent (but still), culture; and it hasn't gone, this
importance. BTW, going back some 200 years -- what Ukraino-centric studies
can you think of? There were few things Ukrainian to study at that time...
or were there?.. It would be interesting to know.
> Great
> Russian chauvanism, which many Russian historians and writers freely
> admit existed and continues to exist, has stayed around a bit too
> long.
The very name "chauv<i>nism" was derived from the French name Chauvin, an
ardent worshipper of Napoleon The I Bonaparte, if I don't err. So it's
hardly a Russian invention, and is characteristic (and continues to exist)
for many other great nations as well.
> What you have is a a distasteful by-product from Tsarist times
> - which mutated, survived and in fact thrived even during the times of
> the USSR.
Tasteless or not, the perception of the USSR as more or less just Russia
can be attributed to Russia's indubitable dominance in many spheres,
including the cultural one. Many Ukrainians of the XIX c. chose to belong to
the Russian culture, not to the separate Ukrainian one (Gogol, for
instance), because the latter was viewed as that of a minor scale compared
to the former, however insulting this can appear.
We shouldn't, of course, forget the principal ban of the tsars' time --
nothing to be proud of -- concerning, as far as I know, even mentioning a
separate Ukrainian language...
> In its current form, it holds the minds of many Ukrainians
> and keeps them ignorant Russian boot lickers.
After more than 10 years of independence? This very fact says already much
of those 'minds'...
> Listen: it's Ukraine's turn to inject a little bit of political
> correctness into the world. There's nothing wrong with doing so.
How, I dare ask, Tridie?
--
Ty Gal.
Slawko
Ukraine and Ukrainian's. They had better chance last 3centures as you
can see they failed. Even there are many Russophiled people in Ukraine
but there is more Russophobes and that will not help Russia to repeat
the distraction of Ukraine-Ukrainian's in this "Modern" World.
You maybe suprised how many people and counties know and want Ukraine to
stay and be independed after all Ukraine is the "Gateway" to Europe.
Ukraine is a thorn in Russia's -Russian's side.One more thing; everybody
know's that "Kyiv" never belong to Russia and its written in many books
of history. And today its quite different history being written.
In Kognito
> Ukraine is a thorn in Russia's -Russian's side.One more thing; everybody
> know's that "Kyiv" never belong to Russia and its written in many books
> of history. And today its quite different history being written.
Look at this:
http://www.eslcafe.com/joblist/index.cgi?read=8091
http://historical.benabraham.com/html/st__sophia_-_kiev_-_russia.html
http://www.sjana.net/table14.html
http://www.who2.com/city_russia_kiev.html
http://www.hotels-kiev.com/kiev.htm
http://www.kessler-web.co.uk/History/KingListsEurope/EasternRussia.htm
Trident
> > various Universities - going back a couple of hundred years.
>
>
> Are they the ones that created ( or influenced creating) the Hollywood
> movies and the US news, text books, where all were referring to USSR
> as Russia and all people there as Russians? I think it was just plain
> laziness.
Not lazyness, but conditioning. Hollywood was founded and largely
driven by Jew's who's ancestors came from parts of the Russian Empire.
In places like Ukraine, they rarely identified themselves with the
indiginous population, but like yanychary, they tried to court the
tsarist power structure.
There is some scholarly research on this subject - if you care to
learn about it more from the "victim" perspective. Here is a book
review I posted a while back which will take you in the "right"
direction:
***********************************************
[begin pasted message]
I am just finishing a book titled: "Culture Nation and Identity - The
Ukrainian Russian Encounter, 1600-1945." Released in April 2003, it
is a compilation of essays originally given at a series of symposiums
held at Columbia and Cologne Universities in June 1994 and September
1995 respectfully.
At the risk of sounding too political and nationalistic, I have to say
that I found this material fascinating. Particularly interesting were
articles by Olga Andriewsky and Oleh Ilnytzkyj which deal with how
Russian intellectuals have always felt threatened by anything other
than 100% submissive Ukrainians because "Russian thinking was and is a
prisoner of the "all-Russian" idea" - meaning Ukraine, White Russia
and Russia are like some sort of holy trinity that is one in the same
- and Russia is and always must be the dominant culture. Anything
else does not compute and they automatically either feel very
threatened by it, or try and ignore it altogether.
Several essays in the book argue how historically Russians have always
been led to believe that expressions of higher Ukrainian culture and
identity are the product of some sort of fascist/demented thinking -
some kind of heresy - thus effectively quashing any rational
discussion with them on the matter. Shevchenko, for example, was
often chastised for wasting his enormous talent writing in "khakhol" -
the language of peasants. Gogol was accepted because he pandered,
conformed and served "Great Russia." It is also quite interesting how
little has changed with respect to this attitude in the last 350 years
(coming to terms with and independent Ukraine since '91 is something
touched on as well).
The book is sometimes hard to read (expecially the first chapter which
deals with Church politics), but overall it is fascinating because it
dissects three key waves of Ukrainian national and cultural rebirth,
and shows how threatening each were to first the Russian Imperial
order and society, and later (in the 1920s) to Stalin and the
Bolshviks.
Dealing with this kind of hostility is something they tried to prepare
us for in Ukrainian school - and thankfully most of us have not been
close enough to the front lines to put our schooling to the test.
However, if you have always wanted to learn more about the attitudes
and motives behind Russia's compulsive need to reduce Ukrainian
culture to the status of "folklore, hopak and varenyky" I would urge
you to get a copy of this book. (ISBN 1-895571-46-4, edited by
Andreas Kappeler, Zenon E. Kohut, Frank E. Sysyn et. al. Available
from the Canadian Instutute of Ukrainian Studies).
Trident
Trident
> "Trident" wrote:
> > In Kognito wrote:
> > > To most Americans, Ukraine was, is and for a long time, will be part
> > > of Russia, if they ever heard of it.
> > > Whose fault is it?
>
> > In a nutshell: Russocentric Eastern European study departments at
> > various Universities - going back a couple of hundred years.
>
> It just reflected the importance Russia had then for European politics
> and, to a much lesser extent (but still), culture; and it hasn't gone, this
> importance.
There is a school of thought, and I wonder if you care to comment on
it, that this so called Russian culture was extremely shallow and
non-indiginous. Most great Russian writers were the product of
European schooling and influence - and in no way reflected the values,
thoughts and beliefs of the Russian masses. Moreover, did not the
tsarist aristocracy speak French amongst themselves?
BTW, going back some 200 years -- what Ukraino-centric studies
> can you think of? There were few things Ukrainian to study at that time...
> or were there?.. It would be interesting to know.
Shevchenko lead the Ukrainian cultural rebirth - but he was clearly
labled a threat to the existing Russian chauvanistic order (sort of
like Jesus was to the Jews), and all that followed him were in some
way persecuted by the Russian intelligencia one way or another. It
was nothing short of cultural genocide, a strange blend of arrogant
Russian narcisism with official government policies that in the end
lay claim to Ukraine's identity. An "Invasion of the Body Snatchers"
on a national and cultural scale - going on for hundreds of years.
Not surprising, after this sort of onslaught, the Ukrainian national
identity is taking a while to re-emerge in the eastern provinces. But
it will - given enough time.
>
> > Great
> > Russian chauvanism, which many Russian historians and writers freely
> > admit existed and continues to exist, has stayed around a bit too
> > long.
>
> The very name "chauv<i>nism" was derived from the French name Chauvin, an
> ardent worshipper of Napoleon The I Bonaparte, if I don't err. So it's
> hardly a Russian invention, and is characteristic (and continues to exist)
> for many other great nations as well.
I do not disagree.
>
> > What you have is a a distasteful by-product from Tsarist times
> > - which mutated, survived and in fact thrived even during the times of
> > the USSR.
>
> Tasteless or not, the perception of the USSR as more or less just Russia
> can be attributed to Russia's indubitable dominance in many spheres,
> including the cultural one. Many Ukrainians of the XIX c. chose to belong to
> the Russian culture, not to the separate Ukrainian one (Gogol, for
> instance), because the latter was viewed as that of a minor scale compared
> to the former, however insulting this can appear.
See my other post in this thread where I gave a review of the book
"Nation, Culture and Identity." This is a complex issue because it
deals with the entire Russification phenomenon - which assaulted
Ukrainians on every level. It took the form of a government policy,
societal pressures, and even religious conflicts (Russian patriarchat
vs Kyivan patriarchat). Most contemporary Ukrainians are sadly not
even aware of the scale or duration of the assault. They look at
Ukrainian nationalism as some sort of abomination (because it clashes
with the subserviant Ukrainian identity that has been drilled into
their heads). This will change over time, but it will take time. The
scars are deep.
> We shouldn't, of course, forget the principal ban of the tsars' time --
> nothing to be proud of -- concerning, as far as I know, even mentioning a
> separate Ukrainian language...
Probably the most blatant example of Russification, but there are
countless other actions which were not quite so visible. I tip my hat
to you for at least acknowledging it. My guess is that most Russians
don't have the same sympathies as you. Would this be a fair
statement?
>
> > In its current form, it holds the minds of many Ukrainians
> > and keeps them ignorant Russian boot lickers.
>
> After more than 10 years of independence? This very fact says already much
> of those 'minds'...
As I said, it will take time to undo the damage of 300+ years of
Russian Imperialism.
>
> > Listen: it's Ukraine's turn to inject a little bit of political
> > correctness into the world. There's nothing wrong with doing so.
>
> How, I dare ask, Tridie?
Relax. With respect to what will inevitably happen in Ukraine, it
will not be in kind - meaning that unlike what Ukrainians experienced,
you need not worry that those who resist "Ukrainianization" will be
shiped off to Siberia, shot or starved to death. Our nationalists are
not like your nationalists. But Russians in Ukraine will at some
point undoubtedly be asked to start acknowledging the wrongs of the
past and recognize the rights of a nation to preserve and indeed
stimulate its own language and culture. It looks as though the
transition will be gradual (as opposed to some of the rapid
transformations in the Baltics). It is really up to the Russian
minority in Ukraine as to how they deal with the change.
Trident
Slawko
book's,there was no such thing as Russia till 16..
Slawko
say thing's just by thinking they make them-self's feel good. Just
few lines pick up on the internet: 1)So if your troubles
are long standing try kneeling.
2)A person of words and not of dids is like garden of weeds.
3)You will never be happy if you continue to search for what happiness
consist of. 4)~Yesterday is history.~Tomorrow is
mystory. ~Today is a gift.~Thats why is called present. 5)The only
man who never makes a mistake is the man who never does anything.
6) Enough for now. Peace to you all.
Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
> On 13 Jun 2004 10:47:40 -0700, cherni...@hotmail.com (The Black Monk) wrote:
>
>
>>Rostyk - DK's posts don't appear on google groups (I read them through
>>other people's posts). If he responds to me would you be so kind as
>>to repost his message by replying to it?
>
>
> Maybe you can consider not sucking on Google's tit and instead
> finding your ISP's newsserver address, getting yourself a newsreader
> and reading Usenet the way it was designed - fast, convenient and
> without silly web interfaces.
>
> DK
>
Well BM, here's one on DKs replies.