Baltic States vs. the Holocaust Center
Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr.
Wiesenthal Center Blasts Baltic Campaign to Equate Communism and
Nazism; Calls for International Effort to Thwart Initiatives That
Distort Holocaust History
Jerusalem, July 16, 2009
The Simon Wiesenthal Center today blasted the current campaign
conducted by the Baltic countries of Lithuania, Latvia, and Estonia to
grant Communist crimes equal recognition to the crimes of the
Holocaust . In an op-ed article featured in the Israeli English-
language daily Jerusalem Post, the Center’s Israel director Holocaust
historian Dr. Efraim Zuroff severely criticized the recently-
intensified campaign by the Baltic republics and other post-Communist
governments to mark August 23 as a joint remembrance day for the
victims of Nazism and Communism, and to establish an “Institute of
European Memory and Conscience” as a museum, research and educational
center on totalitarian crimes in order to “reunite [European] history
[and] recognize communism and Nazism as a common legacy.”
According to Zuroff:
“While one can sympathize with the legitimate desire of the victims of
Communism for recognition, there is nothing innocent about this
declaration which clearly seeks to undermine the current status of the
Holocaust as a unique historical tragedy and relativize it to divert
attention from the extensive collaboration of Balts with the Nazis and
the abysmal failure of all their governments since independence to
adequately deal with these issues.
“It is clear that the time has come to start paying attention to this
insidious campaign being conducted primarily by Lithuania, Latvia, and
Estonia to alleviate their guilt for Holocaust crimes and displace the
Shoa from its unique status. If not, we are likely to soon find
ourselves facing the cancellation of the numerous important
achievements of the past decade in Holocaust commemoration and
education and forced to fight an uphill battle against a new and
distorted World War II historical narrative.”
http://www.wiesenthal.com/site/apps/nlnet/content2.aspx?c=lsKWLbPJLnF&b=4441467&ct=7261475#
July 28, 2009
Tallinn-The Simon Wiesenthal Center issued a harsh criticism of recent
Estonian efforts to equate Communism and Nazism and to glorify the
fighters of the Estonian SS Legion which fought alongside the Nazis,
at a launch here late yesterday of a new Russian language edition of
Anti-Semitism, an anthology of articles published in honor of the late
Smon Wiesenthal by the Russian Holocaust Center and edited by Ilya
Altman, Shimon Samuels and Mark Weitzman. In a speech by Israel
director Holocaust historian Dr. Efraim Zuroff, he noted that the
prevalent tendency in Estonia to glorify those who bore arms in Waffen-
SS units and to consider them as fighters for Estonian independence
rather that Nazi collaborators was a distortion of World War II
history. Zuroff also pointed to the recent gathering of SS veterans
held this past Sunday in Estonia and which was attended by SS veterans
from other Europan countries in which such events are illegal, as
another example of a failure by the Estonian authorities to accurately
identify the criminals and villains of World War II.
According to Zuroff:
“The consistent failure of the Estonian authorities to prosecute any
local Nazi war criminals, in blatant contradiction to their enormous
efforts to bring Communist criminals to justice, and the continuing
glorification of Estonian SS veterans, combined with the recent
campaign to equate Communism and Nazism make Estonia a leader in
Holocaust distortion. As a member of both the European Union and NATO,
it is incumbent upon Estonia to reassess its current policies in this
regard and to restore historical accuracy to the presentation of the
events of World War II. Only by facing its bloody Holocaust past will
Estonia ever be able to truly overcome its record of collaboration
with the Nazis and the active participation of numerous Estonians in
the crimes of the Shoa both in Estonia and outside its borders.”
http://www.ucsj.org/news/estonian-ss-veterans-rally-speakers-criticize-simon-wiesenthal-center.
Estonian SS Veterans Rally, Speakers Criticize Simon Wiesenthal
Center
Posted September 4th, 2002
Over 1,000 veterans of the Estonian SS Legion celebrated the legion’s
60th anniversary in Ida-Virumaa, Estonia, according to an August 29,
2002 article in the Russian language newspaper “Estonia.” Some rally
participants jeered when a speaker mentioned the Simon Wiesenthal
Center, whose staffer Efraim Zuroff has accused Estonian Nazi
collaborators of killing Jews. Loud applause broke out when, referring
to an employee of the Center, one speaker argued: “We should not says
‘the politician Yakobson’ but instead the ‘Jew Yakobson.’” The mayor
of Johvi was spotted in the crowd, though he did not speak at the
event.
http://bronze-soldier.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=256&Itemid=51
The Jerusalem Post 02 May 2007
The struggle over Estonia's history
EFRAIM ZUROFF
Last weekend's large-scale riots in Estonia in which one demonstrator
was killed, over 100 people were injured, and more than 1,000 detained
in response to the government's decision to remove a Soviet-era
monument commemorating the victory of the Red Army over Nazi Germany
from downtown Tallinn to a remote location, were hardly surprising.
Anyone who has followed the manner in which the history of WWII and
the Holocaust and their aftermath have been treated in the Baltic
republic is well aware that the controversy over the monument is
merely the tip of the iceberg, a metaphor for a much more fundamental
struggle over its recent history.
Ever since Estonia regained independence in 1991, the country's
occupation by the Soviets in 1940-1941 and for more than four decades
after World War II, and by the Nazis during 1941-1944, has been the
subject of bitter debate between the Estonian majority and the
country's ethnic minorities - Russians and Jews. While the former, for
obvious reasons, prefer to emphasize their suffering under Soviet rule
and the role played by Russians and Jews in Communist crimes, while
ignoring or minimizing Estonian collaboration with the Nazis, the
latter continue to view the victory of the Red Army in Estonia and the
end of the Nazi occupation as liberation and salvation.
It is important to remember that in Estonia (as well as throughout
post-Communist Europe), this debate has numerous practical
implications that have deepened the rift between the sides over the
years.
One of the most obvious concerns the prosecution of those responsible
for the crimes committed under the occupations. For example, the
Estonian judicial authorities have invested much effort in prosecuting
Communist criminals, mostly Russians, at least 10 of whom have already
been convicted in Estonia. The same cannot be said, however, of the
investigations carried out regarding Estonians who collaborated with
the Nazis in the crimes of the Holocaust.
Not a single Estonian citizen who participated in the persecution and/
or murder of Jews during WWII has been brought to trial by the
Estonians, despite the existence of abundant incriminatory evidence in
at least two cases submitted in recent years.
The lack of political will in Tallinn to prosecute Holocaust
perpetrators is clearly evident in public pronouncements by officials
such as former state prosecutor Heino Tonismagi, who in announcing his
late 2005 decision not to take legal action against Estonian Political
Police operative Harry Mannil, who participated in the arrests in 1941
of Jews and Communists subsequently executed by his colleagues,
claimed that Estonians could not have been involved in any Nazi war
crimes since the country was occupied at the time, an assertion that
ignores the active participation of numerous Estonians in WWII era
crimes and the support of much of the local population for the Nazi
occupation. (There was no anti- Nazi underground or resistance
movement of any kind in Estonia.)
Local efforts to encourage Holocaust commemoration and education in
Estonia lag far behind those of most European countries, a factor
clearly reflected in the belated decision to observe January 27, the
anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz, as a memorial day. The
fact that no Estonian Jews were deported to that death camp made the
choice more palatable to the Estonian public, the overwhelming
majority of whom (93 percent according to an opinion poll in the Eesti
Paevaleht daily) opposed the establishment of such a day.
The widely-divergent views on the most important events in recent
Estonian history are a key factor in the tense interethnic relations
in the country. If we add the deep-seated feelings of discrimination
in employment and education shared by most of the Russian minority,
who constitute a third of the population and are viewed as occupiers
by many Estonians, it is obvious why the decision to remove the statue
of a Red Army soldier from the center of Tallinn sparked the worst
riots in Estonia's recent history.
Prime Minister Andrus Ansip's government was clearly playing to
nationalist sentiment by moving the monument, but in the eyes of those
ethnic groups who were saved by the Red Army, such a step bordered on
the sacrilegious, and reinforced the local Russians' sense of
marginality in Estonian society, making the current clashes
inevitable.
Dr. Efraim Zuroff is the director of the Simon Wiesenthal Center in
Israel.
http://www.stormfront.org/forum/showthread.php?t=149866&page=3
http://www.wiesenthal.com/site/pp.asp?c=lsKWLbPJLnF&b=4441251
Quote:
August 25, 2004
WIESENTHAL CENTER PROTESTS ERECTION OF MONUMENT COMMEMORATING ESTONIAN
SS-DIVISION WHICH FOUGHT WITH NAZIS IN WORLD WAR II
The Simon Wiesenthal Center today issued an official protest against
the erection in the Estonian town of Lihula of a monument
commemorating the members of the 20th Estonian SS Division, which
fought for Nazi Germany during World War II.
In a statement issued today in Jerusalem by the Center’s chief Nazi-
hunter Dr. Efraim Zuroff, the Wiesenthal Center condemned the erection
of the monument which “glorifies those who were willing to sacrifice
their lives to help achieve the victory of Nazi Germany and the Third
Reich in World War II.”
Zuroff added that the inscription on the monument which attempts to
portray the members of the units as fighters “for Estonian
independence in 1940-1944” is a misguided attempt to rewrite history
and to turn Nazi collaborators into Estonian heroes.” This is hardly
surprising in a country which has hereto failed to prosecute a single
Estonian Nazi war criminal and in which a public opinion poll revealed
that 93% of the public oppose the establishment of a memorial day for
the victims of the Holocaust,” said Zuroff.
My sarcastic commentary:
Will being a Nazis soon be regarded the same as being a Communist?
Communists are a respected party in France, Italy and most of the rest
of Europe. Poland joined NATO while being ruled by a Communist
President.
Nazis are outlawed in most European countries.
But there is a movement all over Europe, spearheaded by the Baltic
states, to equate Nazism to Communism in legal terms.
Sadly, this will mean that neo-Nazi parties will become eligible for
Parliament membership in European countries, and countries that elect
Nazi Presidents will have no problem joining NATO the way Poland
joined under the rule of a Communist.
Even more outrageously, the Republic of Moldova, ruled by Communists,
may be viewed to be the same as being a Nazi country.
Who will be next? Will Socialists be next to be declared "as bad as
Nazis"? Afterall, Stalin's USSR was a Socialist country.
Will estimable founders of the European Union, Nazi-fighters and
European Parliament members from Communist Parties become regarded as
“Nazis”, or will Nazis be welcomed in the European Parliament?
Is Altiero Spinelli as bad as the Nazis/fascists who imprisoned him
for 16 years? Will USA apologise for freeing him from prison?
http://europa.eu/abc/history/foundingfathers/spinelli/index_en.htm.
Altiero Spinelli (1907-1986)
The Italian politician Altiero Spinelli was one of the fathers of the
European Union. He was the leading figure behind the European
Parliament's complete proposal for a Treaty on a federal European
Union - the so-called Spinelli Plan. This was in 1982 adopted by an
overwhelming majority in the parliament and provided an important
inspiration for the strengthening of the EU Treaties in the 1980s and
90s.
As a 17 year old, Spinelli had joined the Communist Party, as a
consequence of which he was imprisoned by the fascist regime between
1927 and 1943. At a conference of European resistance in early 1944 he
was one of the initiators of a proposal for a European Manifest. At
the end of the war, he founded the federal European movement in Italy.
In the role of advisor to personalities like de Gasperi, Spaak and
Monnet, he worked for European unification. A trained juror, he also
furthered the European cause in the academic field, and founded the
Institute for International Matters in Rome.
As a member of the European Commission he took over the area of
internal policy from 1970 to 1976. For three years he served as a
Member of Parliament for the Italian Communist Party before being
elected to the European Parliament in 1979.
Erkki Aalto
: http://www.wiesenthal.com/site/apps/nlnet/content2.aspx?c=lsKWLbPJLnF&b=4441467&ct=7189527
: Wiesenthal Center Blasts Baltic Campaign to Equate Communism and
: Nazism; Calls for International Effort to Thwart Initiatives That
: Distort Holocaust History
: Jerusalem, July 16, 2009
: The Simon Wiesenthal Center today blasted the current campaign
: conducted by the Baltic countries of Lithuania, Latvia, and Estonia to
: grant Communist crimes equal recognition to the crimes of the
: Holocaust . In an op-ed article featured in the Israeli English-
: language daily Jerusalem Post, the Center?s Israel director Holocaust
: historian Dr. Efraim Zuroff severely criticized the recently-
: intensified campaign by the Baltic republics and other post-Communist
: governments to mark August 23 as a joint remembrance day for the
: victims of Nazism and Communism, and to establish an ?Institute of
: European Memory and Conscience? as a museum, research and educational
: center on totalitarian crimes in order to ?reunite [European] history
: [and] recognize communism and Nazism as a common legacy.?
: According to Zuroff:
: ?While one can sympathize with the legitimate desire of the victims of
: Communism for recognition, there is nothing innocent about this
: declaration which clearly seeks to undermine the current status of the
: Holocaust as a unique historical tragedy and relativize it to divert
: attention from the extensive collaboration of Balts with the Nazis and
: the abysmal failure of all their governments since independence to
: adequately deal with these issues.
: ?It is clear that the time has come to start paying attention to this
: insidious campaign being conducted primarily by Lithuania, Latvia, and
: Estonia to alleviate their guilt for Holocaust crimes and displace the
: Shoa from its unique status. If not, we are likely to soon find
: ourselves facing the cancellation of the numerous important
: achievements of the past decade in Holocaust commemoration and
: education and forced to fight an uphill battle against a new and
: distorted World War II historical narrative.?
Well, on the Russian propaganda side there is a visible trend to equate
restitution of pre-war Baltic republics to Holocaust:
http://dissidentti.blogspot.com/2008/11/viron-wannsee-vuonna-1989.html
This is in Finnish, but 'Wannsee' should ring a bell
http://pronssisoturi.blogspot.com/2008/12/modern-auschwitz.html
This is in English.
--
Erkki '�rkki' Aalto "Life is divided up into
Internet: Erkki...@Helsinki.FI the horrible and the miserable"
Snail: Tietotekniikkaosasto, P.O. Box 64
FI-00014 University of Helsinki, Finland
Vladimir Makarenko
Did you mean "on the pro Russian side propaganda..."? Or everybody who
doesn't follow party line from now on becomes "Russian"?
Besides it is just peanuts in comparison with announcement that it was
Russia which started WWII:
http://www.isamaaliit.com/category/mart-laar-blog-english/
VM.
vello
> > :http://www.wiesenthal.com/site/apps/nlnet/content2.aspx?c=lsKWLbPJLnF...
You mean this:
"On 23. August 1939 Europe-dividing Molotov-Ribbentrop was signed by
Germany and Soviet Union, dividing Europe between two dictators and
paving way to the start of II World War."?
Quite a lot of historians think that Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact was one
of cornerstones for WW2. War starts with annihilating of Poland and
that pact was just about annihilating Poland (and some other
territories incl. my homeland :-)) It would be extremely hard to
defend a position that pact have nothing to do with the start of the
ww2.
Vladimir Makarenko
Not exactly even though this one comes very close and from the same Nazi
revisionism pile.
What I meant is this quote:
"...regime, which ... started the II World War."
>
> Quite a lot of historians
How many, names and quotes. Because my answer would be - "99% of
historians do not think that Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact was one
of cornerstones for WW2."
> think that Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact was one
> of cornerstones for WW2.
> War starts with annihilating of Poland and
> that pact was just about annihilating Poland (and some other
> territories incl. my homeland :-)) It would be extremely hard to
> defend a position that pact have nothing to do with the start of the
> ww2.
??? It had nothing to do with the start of WWII because attack on Poland
had been planned and the plans put in motion long before the pact
came into existence.
And btw, isn't real beginning of the war is March of 1939 when Germany,
Hungary and Poland dismembered Czechoslovakia?
VM.
Pekka
"Vladimir Makarenko" <vma...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:RtGdnR7JYNdIv1PX...@giganews.com...
>> Quite a lot of historians
>
> How many, names and quotes. Because my answer would be - "99% of
> historians do not think that Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact was one
> of cornerstones for WW2."
>
Please take a look on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov_Ribbentrop_Pact
it has a long index to study
Pekka
J. Anderson
I recall, however, that g. Putin was present in Poland on *1 September
2009*, when the beginning of WWII 70 years earlier was remembered. Russia
also traditionally celebrates the end of WWII in May (victory in Europe),
not in August (de facto end of WWII). It would be difficult to make the
whole world accept alternative beginnings and ends just to satisfy a Soviet
interpretation of history.
Vladimir Makarenko
That still doesn't answer my question: "How many, names and quotes."
Because as a counter argument I may suggest that you visit Library of
Congress.
And then we proceed exchanging similar suggestion till one drop dead.
However if you such a fun of diet coke history as Wiki provides then
you'd better have a look at its article "Causes of WWII".
VM.
Vladimir Makarenko
Hm, isn't it what often can be heard as a complaint - that history is
written by victors? Isn't "victors" is sometimes an euphemism for
"perpetrators who got away with what they did"?
VM.
Pekka
I am very well aware that who ever can write what ever to wiki, that's why I
told that studying their index can give some answers.
vello
start of some war was counted from first shots - and Czechoslovakia
was murdered without shots.
to say about that pact that it is "nothing to do with the start of
WW2" is just stupid no matter what ideas Hitler may have. No one says
it was the sole reason of ww2. But it was first real act of that war:
two nations decided to attack/annihilate some others and they
fulfilled that plan.
There is no need to turn scb to some "what-if" group, but Hitler would
had a lot to think about if Russia's response would be clear and loud:
from day Germany attacks Poland he is in war also with Russia.
Vladimir Makarenko
Well, today wiki tries to muzzle at least the most odious views by
offering accompanying discussion with explicit warning at the beginning
of a particular article if the content of the article looks not
objective for some who can offer counter arguments. However it is not
the case for the one I pointed to - "Causes of WWII".
Looks like there is more or less consensus there on the "cornerstones"
of WWII.
VM.
vello
> Pekka wrote:
> > "Vladimir Makarenko" <vmak...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> >news:RtGdnR7JYNdIv1PX...@giganews.com...
> >>> Quite a lot of historians
> >> How many, names and quotes. Because my answer would be - "99% of
> >> historians do not think that Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact was one
> >> of cornerstones for WW2."
>
> > it has a long index to study
>
> > Pekka
>
> That still doesn't answer my question: "How many, names and quotes."
Don't be silly. you offer on 2your side" just one 2expert2 - yourself
- and ask for me to list thousands of historians over the world :-)?
> Because as a counter argument I may suggest that you visit Library of
> Congress.
> And then we proceed exchanging similar suggestion till one drop dead.
>
> However if you such a fun of diet coke history as Wiki provides then
> you'd better have a look at its article "Causes of WWII".
>
> VM.
"Causes" are a bit different tthing. If you ask me, Versailles was the
most important cause. But having cause for war don't means one must
start a war. btw, molotov-ribbentrop pact is listed in article
suggested by you.
vello
at least from Napoleon times we can't call robbers as heroes as we did
in times of Alexander "the Great", Gengis Khan, Caesar et cetera.
Pekka
Agreed, however is hard to be not biased (for anyone) depending on own
history, wheter his country was attacked by USSR or by Germany. Also I feel
if historian does not come from a country which was divided either to USSR's
or Germany's interest area significance view can be different.
Vladimir Makarenko
First victims were many - Germans included and the real beginning of
WWII was put on by Versailles.
This treaty solved no problems which led to WWI, it canned them and
created new. It engineered a time bomb.
> Just
> start of some war was counted from first shots - and Czechoslovakia
> was murdered without shots.
Well, maybe Czechs should have thought twice of abusing their minorities.
> to say about that pact that it is "nothing to do with the start of
> WW2" is just stupid no matter what ideas Hitler may have.
Please address it to supervisors of "Causes of WWII" Wiki's article. I
am just a messenger who shares (almost) the views of the article.
> No one says
> it was the sole reason of ww2.
Shall I thank God for that?
> But it was first real act of that war:
> two nations decided to attack/annihilate some others and they
> fulfilled that plan.
Soviets wanted a deal - preferably with France and Britain but for a
rainy day doesn't matter with whom to distance themselves from a trouble
brewing in Europe. They were refused by B&F and offered one by Germany -
they took it. It included a death sentence to Baltics but who cared (and
why would) in the USSR about Baltics?
>
> There is no need to turn scb to some "what-if" group, but Hitler would
> had a lot to think about if Russia's response would be clear and loud:
> from day Germany attacks Poland he is in war also with Russia.
WHAT? The Soviets offered Czechoslovakia a deal exactly in these terms
only to be stonewalled off by the West. The Soviets wanted a security
pact with B&F only to see negotiations being torpedoed by Poland.
With M-R pact the West got what it "wanted", because of its incredible
stupidity and arrogance (these two are inseparable). It took the War to
start and alcoholic Churchill to come to sober thinking.
VM.
Vladimir Makarenko
> On Oct 8, 9:17 pm, Vladimir Makarenko <vmak...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Pekka wrote:
>>> "Vladimir Makarenko" <vmak...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>> news:RtGdnR7JYNdIv1PX...@giganews.com...
>>>>> Quite a lot of historians
>>>> How many, names and quotes. Because my answer would be - "99% of
>>>> historians do not think that Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact was one
>>>> of cornerstones for WW2."
>>> Please take a look onhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov_Ribbentrop_Pact
>>> it has a long index to study
>>> Pekka
>> That still doesn't answer my question: "How many, names and quotes."
>
> Don't be silly. you offer on 2your side" just one 2expert2 - yourself
> - and ask for me to list thousands of historians over the world :-)?
You see how hidden yet computer AI takes my side and changes your text:
into "2expert2" which makes of course already four on my side.
>
>> Because as a counter argument I may suggest that you visit Library of
>> Congress.
>> And then we proceed exchanging similar suggestion till one drop dead.
>>
>> However if you such a fun of diet coke history as Wiki provides then
>> you'd better have a look at its article "Causes of WWII".
>>
>> VM.
>
> "Causes" are a bit different tthing. If you ask me, Versailles was the
> most important cause.
Right. Or more generally a white hot ethnic issues plus social
development lagging far behind industrial/technological. Thus the
perfect bomb was created by radical polarization of Europe along social
and ethnic lines.
> But having cause for war don't means one must
> start a war. btw, molotov-ribbentrop pact is listed in article
> suggested by you.
Well obviously M-R didn't happen on the Moon, why it shouldn't be
mentioned? It is a part of what happened. However it happened one week
before the war and had no impact on whether it would start but rather
how it will proceed. If you remember the Soviets had no illusions about
the war with Germany eventually coming and cared only about winning
better starting positions and time. What "collateral" damage it would
cause to the neighboring countries was of no concern to them.
VM.
Vladimir Makarenko
That is surprisingly in some sense resonant with recent article I saw in
Russian press: "War of historical compromats" (compromising materials).
It is on how initially almost strictly anti Russian attitude in Eastern
Europe started to pick up and target neighboring countries - the
interest groups figured out its political value for today's interests.
And now it is not unusual to dig a piece of dirt two - three centuries
old on a neighbor. However the results among the young are
disappointedly low (what is somehow a relief), looks like they just not
into it. Maybe with all the shortcomings it was a very good idea of
Western Europe to accept the poor EEuropean relatives (much better
educated though - in top ten on the world scale - look at the recent
world results for Latvia and Lithuania, Estonia didn't pass population
threshold).
As to those who were not subjected/subjugated to USSR or Germany power
- well we just exchanged with John about how come the beginning of
WWII regards not the moment of occupation of Czechoslovakia but attack
on Poland?
Looks (today) clear for me - it was OK for B&F to remove the case of
Munich and OK with Soviets about Poland - "we saved Ukrainian and
Belorussian brothers from Nazi plague, and what secret protocols? ".
(Case of Bessarabia was mentioned in between very fast and hard to hear).
So in some sense really objective history of WWII and its causes is
still in works.
VM.
vello
run for the "best for Germany" how he understands it - with no concern
about countries suffering due his activities. That's why I put those
two into the same kettle in the Hell.
Vladimir Makarenko
Vello if Russia see that there was no wrong with the deal Putin wouldn't
go to Poland on September 1 to commemorate the beginning of the war and
apologize. Not because to deal with Hitler was wrong but for the crime
committed to the Poles. And it should be some feeling of guilt to
overcome Russian Ego.
That said attempts to present that Europe in the time was some pastoral
idyll which fell a victim to evil Russkies are ridiculous - Europe was
in the time a mad house where nobody feel safe to turn its back to
anybody. And when one fell neighbors were jumping on the body tearing
pieces. Like Poland did to Czechs. Soviets just being *big* made
outstandingly remarkable contribution to this criminal havoc, they were
not just cutting off provinces, they killed countries. Because they
could. But so did others.
VM.
vello
Again I must point out that no one west of Rhein don't had such
feeling that Europe is madhouse - and even in East there were just two
big and a few smaller madmen running in loose. Take a list of European
countries of 1939 and mark those who (even probably) would want to
grab lands not belonging to them - you get a very short list. And one
thing makes Soviets and Nazis unique: they don't look for provices
abroad habitated by their own ehtnic brothers to (re)unite nation -
they look for territories habitated by other nations just for Gengis
Khan's dream to push the border to the Last Sea.
vello
> >news:25SdnVRqcOXzrlPX...@giganews.com...
> >> Pekka wrote:
> >>> "Vladimir Makarenko" <vmak...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> >>>news:vZudnXrwkbNjsVPX...@giganews.com...
> >>>> Pekka wrote:
> >>>>> "Vladimir Makarenko" <vmak...@gmail.com> wrote in message
Just don't put Munich and Molotov-Ribbentrop into the same kettle:
being weak-kneed and not helping those who in hands of criminal gang
is sure not a thing to be a proud of - but no way comparable with
organising criminal gang with other criminals by yourself.
About different wiewpoints due different experiences in ww2 - of
course it is that way. russian people and historians are interested in
history of their land - the same is true for Estonia, France, Belgium,
Finland and all other nations.
vello
> vello wrote:
> >> And btw, isn't real beginning of the war is March of 1939 when Germany,
> >> Hungary and Poland dismembered Czechoslovakia?
>
> >> VM.
> > I would agree with your here, sure chechs were the first wictims.
>
> First victims were many - Germans included and the real beginning of
> WWII was put on by Versailles.
> This treaty solved no problems which led to WWI, it canned them and
> created new. It engineered a time bomb.
Sure - but taking things this way we can't talk about some historical
event at all - all we get is one single line from Adam till today, any
next step dictated by situation created in the past. Can we agree that
Versailles creates situation provoking a new war - but someone still
makes the first shots?
more, if redoing mistakes of Versailles would have been the sole goal
of Herr Hitler, he would probably won the game - he got Sudeten
without a shot and if he would not occupied whole Czechia, maybe West
would at some point agreed to leave german populated areas in Poland
rejoined to Germany again. It is one thing if you want to dominate
"from this point to the end of th World" and comletely other if all
you want is to rejoin one nation in one country.
>
> > Just
> > start of some war was counted from first shots - and Czechoslovakia
> > was murdered without shots.
>
> Well, maybe Czechs should have thought twice of abusing their minorities.
It's a problem of Versailles - why they put millions of germans living
on their historical homeland into Czechoslovakia? Sure sudetendeutsche
had no will to be a part of Chech society - they want back home from
the first day Czechoslovakia was created. I can't see much what Prague
would do about that.
>
> > to say about that pact that it is "nothing to do with the start of
> > WW2" is just stupid no matter what ideas Hitler may have.
>
> Please address it to supervisors of "Causes of WWII" Wiki's article. I
> am just a messenger who shares (almost) the views of the article.
Mol-Rib pact is perfectly mentioned as one cornerstone of ww2 in the
very same article - read it again.
>
> > No one says
> > it was the sole reason of ww2.
>
> Shall I thank God for that?
I think you must thank or swear history, it just happens this way.
>
> > But it was first real act of that war:
> > two nations decided to attack/annihilate some others and they
> > fulfilled that plan.
>
> Soviets wanted a deal - preferably with France and Britain but for a
> rainy day doesn't matter with whom to distance themselves from a trouble
> brewing in Europe. They were refused by B&F
Here you are not too correct - B&F were surely interested in Soviet
help to beat German danger.
and offered one by Germany -
> they took it. It included a death sentence to Baltics but who cared (and
> why would) in the USSR about Baltics?
It's not about Baltics. Sorry, Vladimir, but you sentence sounds
exactly like "but they were just jews". In civilized part of world, no
one even had a think about using the situation to annex, say, Andorra,
Luxembourg or Monaco.
>
>
>
> > There is no need to turn scb to some "what-if" group, but Hitler would
> > had a lot to think about if Russia's response would be clear and loud:
> > from day Germany attacks Poland he is in war also with Russia.
>
> WHAT? The Soviets offered Czechoslovakia a deal exactly in these terms
> only to be stonewalled off by the West. The Soviets wanted a security
> pact with B&F only to see negotiations being torpedoed by Poland.
Poland was against letting troops into Poland in peacetime. Thinking
about fate of those idiots who let - they did a right decicion. But
nothing would stop Russia to declare war on Germany in case Germany
would attack Poland (or any other country near Soviet border). US was
thousands of kilometers from Germany, it not stops them fight.
> With M-R pact the West got what it "wanted", because of its incredible
> stupidity and arrogance (these two are inseparable). It took the War to
> start and alcoholic Churchill to come to sober thinking.
>
"It took the war to start" - so we share common wiew on all thing now?
Vladimir Makarenko
And this is of course JUST NOT TRUE. Otherwise you have to explain that
the concept of "European Civil War" is outlandish fantasy.
> Take a list of European
> countries of 1939 and mark those who (even probably) would want to
> grab lands not belonging to them - you get a very short list.
Feel free to compile such a list. I will complement it.
> And one
> thing makes Soviets and Nazis unique: they don't look for provices
> abroad habitated by their own ehtnic brothers to (re)unite nation -
> they look for territories habitated by other nations just for Gengis
> Khan's dream to push the border to the Last Sea.
>
Soviets were building a barrier between them and burning Europe.
That's it. Because there are solid facts to prove it - like Mongolia
with its huge territory, tiny population and valuable resources was left
alone.
VM.
vello
wrote:
> vello wrote:
>
> > Again I must point out that no one west of Rhein don't had such
> > feeling that Europe is madhouse - and even in East there were just two
> > big and a few smaller madmen running in loose.
>
> And this is of course JUST NOT TRUE. Otherwise you have to explain that
> the concept of "European Civil War" is outlandish fantasy.
I don't know that concept and can't see how it fits in our simple
problem - how many countries were ready to attack others in pre-war
Europe.
>
> > Take a list of European
> > countries of 1939 and mark those who (even probably) would want to
> > grab lands not belonging to them - you get a very short list.
>
> Feel free to compile such a list. I will complement it.
You are not able to count up to two? Or well a bit more if you want to
put cases like Czeszin area (polish people in Czech state) into the
same basket with activities of Stalin and Hitler,
>
> > And one
> > thing makes Soviets and Nazis unique: they don't look for provices
> > abroad habitated by their own ehtnic brothers to (re)unite nation -
> > they look for territories habitated by other nations just for Gengis
> > Khan's dream to push the border to the Last Sea.
>
> Soviets were building a barrier between them and burning Europe.
> That's it.
Well destroying anything between himself and "burning Europe" was not
the best idea to have something between?
Because there are solid facts to prove it - like Mongolia
> with its huge territory, tiny population and valuable resources was left
> alone.
?????????????????
Vladimir Makarenko
I don't - if there were no Munich there would be no M-R.
> being weak-kneed
Cannot you please elaborate on this hypothesis? Czech army in the time
was about 1 mln strong and had more advanced weaponry than German.
It is apart from my doubt that France and Britain had their knees weak
over a possibility of Czech army defeat in hand of Germany.
They did this because they cared only about their personal political
future. No better than Stalin.
> and not helping those who in hands of criminal gang
> is sure not a thing to be a proud of - but no way comparable with
> organising criminal gang with other criminals by yourself.
Lyrics.
>
> About different wiewpoints due different experiences in ww2 - of
> course it is that way. russian people and historians are interested in
> history of their land - the same is true for Estonia, France, Belgium,
> Finland and all other nations.
>
As "Pekka" noticed the more years and miles separate us from the events
the more objective weighing results we may expect.
I sort of understand the recent Baltics anger and blues that when they
eventually went free and wanted to tell their side of the story the
World is not so much interested in listening. Or give you a credit for
stubbornly standing up in silence all these years and preserving your
identity. As appropriate analogy - my high school classmate told me how
a couple of Estonians in his regiment in Afghanistan were granted day
time they were spending sleeping under trucks because they couldn't
stand the sun heat, - they were too ofetn fainting because of heat
shock. They were called "cats" because they were doing patrols after
dark. The same goes for the countries - survived under Soviet Union
heavy truck operating by night. Well, guys - life is not fair.
I do hpwever accuse you not of playing dirty but stupid. Playing dirty
is fine with me.
VM.
vello
wrote:
> vello wrote:
>
> >> VM.
>
> > Just don't put Munich and Molotov-Ribbentrop into the same kettle:
>
> I don't - if there were no Munich there would be no M-R.
>
> > being weak-kneed
>
> Cannot you please elaborate on this hypothesis? Czech army in the time
> was about 1 mln strong and had more advanced weaponry than German.
> It is apart from my doubt that France and Britain had their knees weak
> over a possibility of Czech army defeat in hand of Germany.
> They did this because they cared only about their personal political
> future. No better than Stalin.
No. They would in pair with Stalin if they would went on other
nations. Say, UK would occupy Ireland and France Belgium saying:
what's wrong - Germans are doing the same. Hard to imagine.
>
> > and not helping those who in hands of criminal gang
> > is sure not a thing to be a proud of - but no way comparable with
> > organising criminal gang with other criminals by yourself.
>
> Lyrics.
Just simple truth. Being weak and don't helping those who in hands of
criminal is problem of ethics. But to build an alliance to kill and
rob people - and then go and actually kill and rob people is clear
criminal offence. If you don't believe, ask any lawyer you know.
>
>
>
> > About different wiewpoints due different experiences in ww2 - of
> > course it is that way. russian people and historians are interested in
> > history of their land - the same is true for Estonia, France, Belgium,
> > Finland and all other nations.
>
> As "Pekka" noticed the more years and miles separate us from the events
> the more objective weighing results we may expect.
> I sort of understand the recent Baltics anger and blues that when they
> eventually went free and wanted to tell their side of the story the
> World is not so much interested in listening. Or give you a credit for
> stubbornly standing up in silence all these years and preserving your
> identity. As appropriate analogy - my high school classmate told me how
> a couple of Estonians in his regiment in Afghanistan were granted day
> time they were spending sleeping under trucks because they couldn't
> stand the sun heat, - they were too ofetn fainting because of heat
> shock. They were called "cats" because they were doing patrols after
> dark. The same goes for the countries - survived under Soviet Union
> heavy truck operating by night. Well, guys - life is not fair.
> I do hpwever accuse you not of playing dirty but stupid. Playing dirty
> is fine with me.
Vladimir, your problem is, you get 99% of data about Baltics in
Russian media. So you practically know nothing what happens here.
Vladimir Makarenko
> On Oct 9, 10:45 pm, Vladimir Makarenko <vmak...@nospamgmail.com>
> wrote:
>> vello wrote:
>
>>>> VM.
>>> Just don't put Munich and Molotov-Ribbentrop into the same kettle:
>> I don't - if there were no Munich there would be no M-R.
>>
>>> being weak-kneed
>> Cannot you please elaborate on this hypothesis? Czech army in the time
>> was about 1 mln strong and had more advanced weaponry than German.
>> It is apart from my doubt that France and Britain had their knees weak
>> over a possibility of Czech army defeat in hand of Germany.
>> They did this because they cared only about their personal political
>> future. No better than Stalin.
>
> No. They would in pair with Stalin if they would went on other
> nations. Say, UK would occupy Ireland and France Belgium saying:
> what's wrong - Germans are doing the same. Hard to imagine.
May I try again to turn your attention that in the time B&F were running
and conquer new colonies?
Now - point by point explain me how it is acceptable more than doing the
same in Europe.
>>> and not helping those who in hands of criminal gang
>>> is sure not a thing to be a proud of - but no way comparable with
>>> organising criminal gang with other criminals by yourself.
>> Lyrics.
>
> Just simple truth. Being weak and don't helping those who in hands of
> criminal is problem of ethics.
How about this version - "being weak and taking a weapon from hands of
the victim of the rape is a problem of ethics"? It was a crime. Simple.
And this crime was committed not because "weak knees" but to protect the
gains of Versailles. Or so thought it was.
But to build an alliance to kill and
> rob people - and then go and actually kill and rob people is clear
> criminal offence. If you don't believe, ask any lawyer you know.
>>
>>
>>> About different wiewpoints due different experiences in ww2 - of
>>> course it is that way. russian people and historians are interested in
>>> history of their land - the same is true for Estonia, France, Belgium,
>>> Finland and all other nations.
>> As "Pekka" noticed the more years and miles separate us from the events
>> the more objective weighing results we may expect.
>> I sort of understand the recent Baltics anger and blues that when they
>> eventually went free and wanted to tell their side of the story the
>> World is not so much interested in listening. Or give you a credit for
>> stubbornly standing up in silence all these years and preserving your
>> identity. As appropriate analogy - my high school classmate told me how
>> a couple of Estonians in his regiment in Afghanistan were granted day
>> time they were spending sleeping under trucks because they couldn't
>> stand the sun heat, - they were too ofetn fainting because of heat
>> shock. They were called "cats" because they were doing patrols after
>> dark. The same goes for the countries - survived under Soviet Union
>> heavy truck operating by night. Well, guys - life is not fair.
>> I do hpwever accuse you not of playing dirty but stupid. Playing dirty
>> is fine with me.
>
> Vladimir, your problem is, you get 99% of data about Baltics in
> Russian media. So you practically know nothing what happens here.
>
That is not so. Today I get 99% of the info from scb and affiliated
sources.
Russians as a nation and even its leadership has (and very strong) bias.
However if you drop a popular Baltics assumption that you are dealing
with congenital maniacs and try to Obamaship clearly, without hidden
knives like "anti Iranian missile shield" to deal with them, the results
will surprise you. Your bet that Russia is over - failed, now time to
change strategy of the game. For sake of your countries.
When next presidential elections are due in Latvia? What is an attitude
there towards a constitutional monarchy? How many tanks Latvia has vs
how many tanks Estonia has?
VM.
J. Anderson
"Vladimir Makarenko" <vma...@nospamgmail.com> wrote in message
news:R6GdnQ5TbdifNFLX...@giganews.com...
> When next presidential elections are due in Latvia? What is an attitude
> there towards a constitutional monarchy? How many tanks Latvia has vs how
> many tanks Estonia has?
Still interested in the Latvian presidency?
Here's the car that awaits you:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ostsee/3948703202/
And here's your flag:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ostsee/3947920171/
Why are you interested in the number of tanks? Are you planning to invade
Estonia after you've become president?
Vladimir Makarenko
> "Vladimir Makarenko" <vma...@nospamgmail.com> wrote in message
> news:R6GdnQ5TbdifNFLX...@giganews.com...
>
>> When next presidential elections are due in Latvia? What is an attitude
>> there towards a constitutional monarchy? How many tanks Latvia has vs how
>> many tanks Estonia has?
>
> Still interested in the Latvian presidency?
What you mean "still"? I never abandoned my retirement plans. I already
have a complete set of sketches of my portraits and statues to be placed
in towns squares and every school classrooms.
I just don't like this stupid election fuss. I want monarchy.
>
> Here's the car that awaits you:
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/ostsee/3948703202/
>
> And here's your flag:
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/ostsee/3947920171/
>
> Why are you interested in the number of tanks? Are you planning to invade
> Estonia after you've become president?
>
No - Estonia will surrender on its own. And THEN after combining forces
and making alliance with Iran, I place a call to Kremlin - Hey Medvedev,
we have have something to talk about...
VM.
Vladimir Makarenko
Anyway everything good what happens in this world is due to my hard
effort, everything bad - despite of it.
E.g. - it is all Cedrins' fault: if he listened to me - today I would be
a Latvian president, he would be my chosen political prisoner and Noble
prize winner and right now we would be on a charter flight to Caribbean
with 1.5 mln of US $$ in our pockets.
Such a waste of time and effort. Baltics are really backwater in modern
economy, still do not understand Wall Street rule: Steal and Run.
VM.
Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr.
I would never do that: the Munich Deal came earlier and forced USSR
into signing Molotov-Ribbentrop.
Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr.
Not so fast. Many in USA still call the conquerers of Iraq and Kosovo
"heroes".
Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr.
But neither Britain nor France came to defend Poland one bit. So, what
good did that do to defend Poland? Had USSR also declared war on
Germany but did nothing (as they did nothing to pdefend
Czechoslovakia, their common ally with France), what good would that
have done? The only thing that the French declaration of war on
Germany accomplished is that it gave Hitler a pretext to conquer
France a few months later.
vello
so Western unability to whitstand peacefully rejoining german-
populated Sudeten to the Germany forces USSR ...to agree with
agressor about annihilating Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and
Poland? Stupidity is limiteless :-)
vello
kosovo is ruled by people who would got at least 90% of votes on any
real elections here. and Iraq will be free in not too remote future -
no one is practicising ethnic cleansings there so Iraq will be like it
was - just more peaceful and democratic.
vello
<ostap_bender_1...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Ask Albert Speer or any other Nazi economy leader. Brits started to
cut Nazi support lines from the very first day of ww2 - and at the end
it was maybe the most important thing in defeating nazis. You can't
fight without rubber, oil and components for armour steel.
Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr.
And all Iraqis will become Protestants and Catholics. Drea on.
vello
I can't say there will be Swiss next year. But being better of then
with Saddam who gasses his own people is not too hard to achieve.
lorad
<ostap_bender_1...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> http://www.wiesenthal.com/site/apps/nlnet/content2.aspx?c=lsKWLbPJLnF...
>
> Wiesenthal Center Blasts Baltic Campaign to Equate Communism and
> Nazism; Calls for International Effort to Thwart Initiatives That
> Distort Holocaust History
>
> Jerusalem, July 16, 2009
>
> The Simon Wiesenthal Center today blasted the current campaign
> conducted by the Baltic countries of Lithuania, Latvia, and Estonia to
> grant Communist crimes equal recognition to the crimes of the
> Holocaust .
The problem is simple...
The so-called holocaust company serves its own clientele's interests -
no one elses.
Any attempt by others to demonstrate the others' losses diminishes
their own advertising efforts and potential influence and income.
It therefore becomes important to them to denigrate any other appeals
for human justice... even to the extent of attacking the victims
appeals for elemental justice.
It's a very nasty and ugly mindset that they have fallen into.
captain!
"Vladimir Makarenko" <vma...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:RtGdnR7JYNdIv1PX...@giganews.com...
>
> How many, names and quotes. Because my answer would be - "99% of
> historians do not think that Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact was one
> of cornerstones for WW2."
>
oh makarenko... dear, dear makarenko... :)
Vladimir Makarenko
Captain, stop it - I AM A DIE HARD HETEROSEXUAL.
(Hm, are you are girl?)
Now - Europe was brewing the trouble for two decades and then it turned
its ugly face to USSR with blood still dripping from the fangs and
growled - you know - you are in this game too, you want it or not. So be
it. Now after getting their asses whipped Euros yell - it's all fault of
evil Russkies!
VM.
captain!
oh i know it was ugly. i just take issue with your 99% claim.