Golden Age of Islam is just mythology
Monsef
The problem with turning this list of intellectual achievements into a
convincing "Islamic" golden age is that whatever flourished, did so
not by reason of Islam but in spite of Islam. Moslems overran
societies (Persian, Greek, Egyptian, Byzantine, Syrian, Jewish) that
possessed intellectual sophistication in their own right and failed to
completely destroy their cultures. To give it the credit for what the
remnants of these cultures achieved is like crediting the Red Army for
the survival of Chopin in Warsaw in 1970! Islam per se never
encouraged science, in the sense of disinterested enquiry, because the
only knowledge it accepts is religious knowledge.
The Golden Age of Islam is a Myth
By Serge Trifkovic
FrontPageMagazine.com | November 15, 2002
Second in a series of excerpts adapted by Robert Locke from Dr. Serge
Trifkovic's
new book The Sword of the Prophet: A Politically-Incorrect Guide to
Islam
The hatred of Western Civilization, and the corresponding urge to
glorify anything outside it, especially if it can be depicted as a
victim of the West, is a well-known phenomenon of the contemporary
liberal mind. One of the forms it has taken in recent years is the
attempt to artificially inflate the historic achievements of other
civilizations beyond what the facts support. The noble savage myth is
a commonplace; what is more complex is the myth that has been bandied
about concerning the supposed "golden age" of Islamic civilization
during what we know as the Middle Ages.
The myth of an Islamic Golden Age is needed by Islam's apologists to
save it from being damned by its present squalid condition; to prove,
as it were, that there is more to Islam than the terrorism of Bin
Laden and the decadence of the oil sheiks. It is, frankly, a
confession that if the world judges it by what it is today, it comes
up rather short, being a religion that has yet to produce a democratic
or prosperous society, or social and cultural forms admired by neutral
foreign observers the way anyone can admire American freedom, Japanese
order, Israeli courage, or Italian style.
Some liberal academics openly admit that they twist the Moslem past to
serve their present-day intellectual agendas. For example, some who
propound the myth of an Islamic golden age of tolerance admit that
their goal is,
"to recover for postmodernity that lost medieval Judeo-Islamic
trading, social and cultural world, its high point pre-1492 Moorish
Spain, which permitted and relished a plurality, a convivencia, of
religions and cultures, Christian, Jewish and Moslem; which prized an
historic internationality of space along with the valuing of
particular cities; which was inclusive and cosmopolitan, cosmopolitan
here meaning an ease with different cultures: still so rare and
threatened a value in the new millennium as in centuries past."
In other words, a fairy tale designed to create the illusion that
multiculturalism has valid historical precedents that prove it can
work.
To be fair, the myth of the golden age of Islam does have a partially
valid starting point: there were times in the past when Moslem
societies attained higher levels of civilization and culture than they
did at other times. There have been times, that is, when some Moslem
lands were fit for a cultivated man to live in. Baghdad under Harun
ar-Rashid (his well-documented Christian-slaying and Jew-hating
proclivities notwithstanding), or Cordova very briefly under Abd
ar-Rahman in the tenth century, come to mind. These isolated episodes,
neither long nor typical, are endlessly invoked by Islam's Western
apologists and admirers.
This "golden" period in question largely coincides with the second
dynasty of the Caliphate or Islamic Empire, that of the Abbasids,
named after Muhammad's uncle Abbas, who succeeded the Umayyads and
ascended to the Caliphate in 750 AD. They moved the capital city to
Baghdad, absorbed much of the Syrian and Persian culture as well as
Persian methods of government, and ushered in the "golden age."
This age was marked by, among other things, intellectual achievement.
A number of medieval thinkers and scientists living under Islamic
rule, by no means all of them "Moslems" either nominally or
substantially, played a useful role of transmitting Greek, Hindu, and
other pre-Islamic fruits of knowledge to Westerners. They contributed
to making Aristotle known in Christian Europe. But in doing this, they
were but transmitting what they themselves had received from
non-Moslem sources.
Three speculative thinkers, notably the three Persians al-Kindi,
al-Farabi, and Avicenna, combined Aristotelianism and Neoplatonism
with other ideas introduced through Islam. Greatly influenced by
Baghdad's Greek heritage in philosophy that survived the Arab
invasion, and especially the writings of Aristotle, Farabi adopted the
view — utterly heretical from a Moslem viewpoint — that reason is
superior to revelation. He saw religion as a symbolic rendering of
truth, and, like Plato, saw it as the duty of the philosopher to
provide guidance to the state. He engaged in rationalistic questioning
of the authority of the Koran and rejected predestination. He wrote
more than 100 works, notably The Ideas of the Citizens of the Virtuous
City. But these unorthodox works no more belong to Islam than Voltaire
belongs to Christianity. He was in Moslem culture but not of it,
indeed opposed to its orthodox core. He examples the pattern we see
again and again: the best Moslems, whether judged by intellectual or
political achievement, are usually the least Moslem.
The Moslem mainstream of this time, on the other hand, emphasized
rigid Koranic orthodoxy and deployed Greek philosophy and science
solely to buttress its authority. "They were rationalists in so far as
they fell back on Greek philosophy for their metaphysical and physical
explanations of phenomena; still, it was their aim to keep within the
limits of orthodox belief." But when the thinkers went too far in
their free inquiry into the secrets of nature, paying little attention
to the authority of the Koran, they aroused suspicion of the rulers
both in North Africa and Spain, as well as in the East. Persecution,
exile, and death were frequent punishments suffered by the
philosophers of Islam whose writings did not conform to the canon.
On the other side of the Empire, in Spain, Averroës exercised much
influence on both Jewish and Christian thinkers with his
interpretations of Aristotle. While mostly faithful to Aristotle's
method, he found the Aristotelian "prime mover" in Allah, the
universal First Cause. His writings brought him into political
disfavor and he was banished until shortly before his death, while
many of his works in logic and metaphysics had been consigned to the
flames. He left no school.
From Spain the Arabic philosophic literature was translated into
Hebrew and Latin, which contributed to the development of modern
European philosophy. In Egypt around the same time, Moses Maimonides
(a Jew) and Ibn Khaldun made their contribution. A Christian,
Constantine "the African," a native of Carthage, translated medical
works from Arabic into Latin, thus introducing Greek medicine to the
West. His translations of Hippocrates and Galen first gave the West a
view of Greek medicine as a whole.
The "golden age" of Islamic art lasted from AD 750 to the mid-11th
century, when ceramics, glass, metalwork, textiles, illuminated
manuscripts, and woodwork flourished. Lustered glass became the
greatest Islamic contribution to ceramics. Manuscript illumination
became an important and greatly respected art, and miniature painting
flourished in Iran. Calligraphy, an essential aspect of written
Arabic, developed in manuscripts and architectural decoration.
In the exact sciences the contribution of Al-Khwarzimi, mathematician
and astronomer, was considerable. Like Euclid, he wrote mathematical
books that collected and arranged the discoveries of earlier
mathematicians. His "Book of Integration and Equation" is a
compilation of rules for solving linear and quadratic equations, as
well as problems of geometry and proportion. Its translation into
Latin in the 12th century provided the link between the great Hindu
mathematicians and European scholars. A corruption of the book's title
resulted in the word algebra; a corruption of the author's own name
resulted in the term algorithm.
The problem with turning this list of intellectual achievements into a
convincing "Islamic" golden age is that whatever flourished, did so
not by reason of Islam but in spite of Islam. Moslems overran
societies (Persian, Greek, Egyptian, Byzantine, Syrian, Jewish) that
possessed intellectual sophistication in their own right and failed to
completely destroy their cultures. To give it the credit for what the
remnants of these cultures achieved is like crediting the Red Army for
the survival of Chopin in Warsaw in 1970! Islam per se never
encouraged science, in the sense of disinterested enquiry, because the
only knowledge it accepts is religious knowledge.
As Bernard Lewis explains in his book What Went Wrong? the Moslem
Empire inherited "the knowledge and skills of the ancient Middle east,
of Greece and of Persia, it added to them new and important
innovations from outside, such as the manufacture of paper from China
and decimal positional numbering from India." The decimal numbers were
thus transmitted to the West, where they are still mistakenly known as
"Arabic" numbers, honoring not their inventors but their transmitters.
Furthermore, the intellectual achievements of Islam's "golden age"
were of limited value. There was a lot of speculation and very little
application, be it in technology or politics. At the present day, for
almost a thousand years even speculation has stopped, and the bounds
of what is considered orthodox Islam have frozen, except when they
have even contracted, as in the case of Wahabism. Those who try to
push the fundamentals of Moslem thought any further into the light of
modernity frequently pay for it with their lives. The fundamentalists
who ruled Afghanistan until recently and still rule in Iran hold up
their supposed golden age as a model for their people and as a
justification for their tyranny. Westerners should know better.
Serge Trifkovic received his PhD from the University of Southampton in
England and pursued postdoctoral research at the Hoover Institution at
Stanford. His past journalistic outlets have included the BBC World
Service, the Voice of America, CNN International, MSNBC, U.S. News &
World Report, The Washington Times, the Philadelphia Inquirer, The
Times of London, and the Cleveland Plain Dealer. He is foreign affairs
editor of Chronicles.. Robert Locke is Associate Editor of Front Page
Magazine.
sirknight67
fact that those lame sorry muslim apologists don't want to admit is
that the greatest men in so-called "islamic civilization", a euphemism
to hide the arab rape of Persian, Indian and Gree lands and cultures,
is that its greatest men such as Ferdowsi, Khayam and Razi WERE NOT
EVEN MUSLIM!!!
Being born muslim means NOTHING! None of those men practiced Islam.
Razi was considered a heretic and Ferdowsi wrote on Zoroastrian
history and nothing on Islam.
Ibn warraq also made a good point of denouncing this myth and
ridiculous denial on behalf of the muslim world when in reality Islam
and civilization are contradictory terms. Many of Ibn Sina
(Avicenna)'s books for instance were burned in the great library of
Bokhara because they were supposedly anti-Islamic!
Islam was always the same pile of shit then as it is today: backward,
prejudiced, ignorant and superstitious and going nowhere.
vatan...@web.de (Monsef) wrote in message news:<a2dc236c.03070...@posting.google.com>...
> view ? utterly heretical from a Moslem viewpoint ? that reason is
> superior to revelation. He saw religion as a symbolic rendering of
> truth, and, like Plato, saw it as the duty of the philosopher to
> provide guidance to the state. He engaged in rationalistic questioning
> of the authority of the Koran and rejected predestination. He wrote
> more than 100 works, notably The Ideas of the Citizens of the Virtuous
> City. But these unorthodox works no more belong to Islam than Voltaire
> belongs to Christianity. He was in Moslem culture but not of it,
> indeed opposed to its orthodox core. He examples the pattern we see
> again and again: the best Moslems, whether judged by intellectual or
> political achievement, are usually the least Moslem.
>
> The Moslem mainstream of this time, on the other hand, emphasized
> rigid Koranic orthodoxy and deployed Greek philosophy and science
> solely to buttress its authority. "They were rationalists in so far as
> they fell back on Greek philosophy for their metaphysical and physical
> explanations of phenomena; still, it was their aim to keep within the
> limits of orthodox belief." But when the thinkers went too far in
> their free inquiry into the secrets of nature, paying little attention
> to the authority of the Koran, they aroused suspicion of the rulers
> both in North Africa and Spain, as well as in the East. Persecution,
> exile, and death were frequent punishments suffered by the
> philosophers of Islam whose writings did not conform to the canon.
>
> On the other side of the Empire, in Spain, Averroės exercised much
AnonMoos
carefully qualified and limited (and might not turn out to be all that
"Golden" on careful close examination). However, there certainly was
a period in which Arab civilization was the most powerful and most
advanced between China and the Atlantic coasts, so this historical era
was "Golden" for them in that respect. To say that most of the
knowledge which the Arabs had in Harun al-Rashid's period was
dependent on Greek or Mesopotamian sources is really rather
irrelevant, since at that time it was something of an accomplishment
just to keep knowledge from stagnating or going backwards, and
synthesizing things together from disparate sources to form the basis
for a civilization which was quasi-continental in scale was definitely
an achievement.
> Furthermore, the intellectual achievements of Islam's "golden age"
> were of limited value. There was a lot of speculation and very little
> application, be it in technology or politics.
The same could be said of ancient Greece!
--
Some Qur'an quotes: 5:20 qaala muusaa 5:21 "yaa qawmi ´dkhuluu ´l-'arDa
´l-muqaddasata ´llatii kataba ´llaahu lakum" 17:104 waqulnaa ... libanii
'israa'iila "´skunuu ´l-'arDa" || In English: Moses said, "My people,
go into the Holy Land which God has assigned to you!" And we said to the
Children of Israel, "Inhabit the land!" http://symbolictruth.fateback.com/
Ala Mohseni
"sirknight67" <sirkn...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:bea350bd.03070...@posting.google.com...
> Well said MOnsef,
> fact that those lame sorry muslim apologists don't want to admit is
> that the greatest men in so-called "islamic civilization", a euphemism
> to hide the arab rape of Persian, Indian and Gree lands and cultures,
> is that its greatest men such as Ferdowsi, Khayam and Razi WERE NOT
> EVEN MUSLIM!!!
either way.
1- they were muslim, which islam takes the credit.
2- they were not muslim, which again islam takes credit
for being tolerant towards non-believers.
The foundation of western civilization is islamic civilization.
from math to medicine to social sciences and even music and art
from astronomy to industry (first idea of automation)
from linguistics to philosphy (all greek work is arabic translation)
from psychology and sociology,
you hear the names of:
Al-Khawrazmi, Abu Ali Sina, Rumi, Ibn Khaladoon etc.
tu...@shaw.ca
>The Golden Age of Islam is a Myth
>By Serge Trifkovic
>FrontPageMagazine.com | November 15, 2002
>(...)
only if you're a dupe, and a fan of all things servian
Kiran
> The foundation of western civilization is islamic civilization.
> from math to medicine to social sciences and even music and art
> from astronomy to industry (first idea of automation)
> from linguistics to philosphy (all greek work is arabic translation)
> from psychology and sociology,
>
> you hear the names of:
> Al-Khawrazmi, Abu Ali Sina, Rumi, Ibn Khaladoon etc.
http://main.faithfreedom.org/faq/4.htm#47
"What do these have to do with Islam ? If the Abbasids were tolerant
rulers this is not because of what Muhammad taught...What the talents
and achievements of Rumy, Ibn Arabi, Ibn Sina and other luminaries born
as Muslims have to do with Islam ?...Our people had a culture and a
civilization that predated Islam by thousands of years. It is amazing
that we call our own architecture, art, science and literature
"Islamic"...We even call Arabic names Islamic. What do you think Arabs
used to call themselves before Islam ?... What our people created with
their own talents and genius is...no more Islamic than the theories of
Einstein and Hawking are Jewish and Christian.
"...What happened to Ibn Sina and Ar Razi? They were called apostates
and their philosophical books were banned. Ar Razy wrote a tome on
rationalism...His book was destroyed. All is left are fragments of his
sayings in a book of refutation to him. In Islam the freethinking is
discouraged.
"If it weren't for Islam most likely we would have the enlightenment
happen in Iran 400 years before it took place in Europe. Imagine where
would we be now if we had achieved what we achieved 400 years ago. We
shall never know the extent of the damage that Islam caused to the
world of humanity. Just think all the libraries and books that the
Islamic forces burned. Who knows how much human knowledge was lost
then.
"I had an Iranian who challenged me to show him one great Iranian poet
prior to Islam . He wanted me to produce what his savage masters
destroyed 1400 years ago. Now he claims that prior to Islam there were
no great minds in our country as if we have to thank Islam for great
men of our land who only were born after Islam . This brainwashed man
does not ask himself how Iran became a great world power if it did not
have any great minds. How can I produce the evidence when Muslims
invaders destroyed all the evidence?
"Once upon a time Iran was one of the great powers of the world. We
were one of the contributors to human civilization. My people wrote the
first charter of human rights. We banned slavery 2500 years ago. Women
ruled our great land. All nations that were part of our vast empire
were free to practice their religion. This is mentioned in the Bible.
We believed in the benevolent...god of light and practiced good words,
good deeds and good thoughts.
"But today we have forsaken our god of light and follow the sadistic
deity of Muhammad who craves for blood and calls for the heads of those
who do not want to submit to his despotic authority. Today we are a
poor thirds world country sinking deeper and deeper day after day.
Human rights are inexistent, women are second-class citizens,
minorities are persecuted, poverty is rampant and we are known as a
nation of terrorists. This is what Islam has given us.
"Look at our countries; all Islamic counties; look at us! See how
miserable, barbaric and pitiful are our societies. Show me one Islamic
country that is not in war. If we are not fighting with others, we are
fighting among each other. What do you expect from a people who are
brought up to believe that 'paradise is under the shade of the sword'?
What do you expect of the ignorant people that eulogize martyrdom and
celebrate death? What do you expect from the society that its
spiritual leader (Khomeini) says: 'Economy is for the donkey'? What do
you expect from a society that dresses up a toddler as suicide bomber
and take pride in their own stupidity?
"What do you expect of a society that massacres 3 million of his own
people (Pakstanis in Bangladesh) and their spiritual leader issues the
fatwa that rapping the Bengali women is acceptable according the Sharia
and the Sunna of the Prophet. Now please don't say he was wrong because
he based his fatwa on this Quranic verse:
"4:24 Also (prohibited are) women already married, except those
(captives) whom your right hands possess.
"Or see this story of Muhammad's raid of Kheybar where he gives
permission to his followers to enslave war captives and rape them,
Sahih Bukhari 1.367
"...The followers of the Holy Prophet used to rape the women they
captured in their raids and withdraw before ejaculation. They reported
that to the Holy Prophet (peace be upon his immaculate soul) and the
only thing that occurred to this man is that even if they withdraw and
spill their semen on the ground if Allah wills the women will become
pregnant. Forget about the stupidity of his statement; think about the
inhumanity of this man.
"These are not stories narrated by Jews. These are stories counted by
the followers of Muhammad, people who believed in him and loved him..."
-------------------
"As I would not be a slave, so I would not be a master. This expresses
my idea of democracy. Whatever differs from this, to the extent of the
difference, is no democracy." Abraham Lincoln
Thereupon I concluded: As I would not be a dhimmi, so I would not be a
Muslim. -Ali Sina
-------------------
Ala Mohseni
"Kiran" <ki...@no.spam> wrote in message
news:060720032344579441%ki...@no.spam...
it's all a big "if".
who knows what
would have happened if
Alexander did not attack Iran
and destroyed our culture and architecture,
if Mongols did not attack us burying and destroying
evryone and everything? Truth is, just like the 79 revolution
people embraced Islam (not Arabs) and when found that they are
being looted (just like IRI) they got rid of the Arabs but kept Islam.
> shall never know the extent of the damage that Islam caused to the
> world of humanity. Just think all the libraries and books that the
> Islamic forces burned. Who knows how much human knowledge was lost
> then.
>
> "I had an Iranian who challenged me to show him one great Iranian poet
> prior to Islam . He wanted me to produce what his savage masters
> destroyed 1400 years ago. Now he claims that prior to Islam there were
> no great minds in our country as if we have to thank Islam for great
> men of our land who only were born after Islam . This brainwashed man
> does not ask himself how Iran became a great world power if it did not
> have any great minds. How can I produce the evidence when Muslims
> invaders destroyed all the evidence?
>
Simply not true.
Persians were huge on
administration and military but
did not have technology of themselves.
they would borrow technology from their colonies,
doctors from egypt, artists and arthitects from greece,
minting coins from anatolia, food and spices from india and etc.
> "Once upon a time Iran was one of the great powers of the world. We
> were one of the contributors to human civilization. My people wrote the
> first charter of human rights. We banned slavery 2500 years ago. Women
> ruled our great land. All nations that were part of our vast empire
> were free to practice their religion. This is mentioned in the Bible.
> We believed in the benevolent...god of light and practiced good words,
> good deeds and good thoughts.
>
> "But today we have forsaken our god of light and follow the sadistic
> deity of Muhammad who craves for blood and calls for the heads of those
> who do not want to submit to his despotic authority. Today we are a
> poor thirds world country sinking deeper and deeper day after day.
> Human rights are inexistent, women are second-class citizens,
> minorities are persecuted, poverty is rampant and we are known as a
> nation of terrorists. This is what Islam has given us.
>
history tells of large groups of people who were killed by the savagry
of the Persian kings and the Zoroasterian mobeds prior to the Arab
invasion. In fact, people had rejected Zoroasterianism, which was
never a popular religion but forced upon them by kings. the reason not
much has left of the Persian empire is because of the caste system.
whatever intellectual work existed was kept within the confines of the
palaces as common people were caught and killed if they attempted
to learn how to read and write. these problems never existed under islam.
> "Look at our countries; all Islamic counties; look at us! See how
> miserable, barbaric and pitiful are our societies. Show me one Islamic
> country that is not in war. If we are not fighting with others, we are
> fighting among each other. What do you expect from a people who are
> brought up to believe that 'paradise is under the shade of the sword'?
> What do you expect of the ignorant people that eulogize martyrdom and
> celebrate death? What do you expect from the society that its
> spiritual leader (Khomeini) says: 'Economy is for the donkey'? What do
> you expect from a society that dresses up a toddler as suicide bomber
> and take pride in their own stupidity?
it is all an indication of a region in crisis more than anything else.
centuries
of western colonization of muslim lands that started with muslim decline.
we live in a sort of muslim dark ages and the troubles all tells of a
comming renaissance. the bloodshed in palestine is a western phenomena.
the iran-iraq war was also imposed on both nations from outside and
the two countries were stupid enough to fall for it. afghanestan was
first a Soviet problem and then taleban was created by the u.s. for the
purpose of controling afghanestan when things went out of their control.
As far as muslims being more violent than other nations, history tells
that this is not simply true. go read the crusades and the christian
massacres of muslims and non to figure out what violence means.
the hindu-muslim violence in india and the internal shia/sunni fight
in pakestan has a hindi historical and cultural root complicated by
centuries of colonialism.
tu...@shaw.ca
>The Golden Age of Islam is a Myth
>By Serge Trifkovic
>FrontPageMagazine.com | November 15, 2002
>(...)
cameron
> http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Printable.asp?ID=4626
No mention of Al-Ghazali? Does America really think its cultural
inheritance from Europe is original to Europe? Athens owes its
inheritance to Alexandria and Megaria, Jerusalem to Egypt and Babylon.
For better or worse, Europe owes its renaissance to Islam.
Rodrigo Diaz
Ahura Mazda.
defaultnot
Islam and Moslems are all correct. If the same exact things were said
about Europeans, it would be equally correct.
Yes, Arab World has had hated (still do) the entire Europe and all
non-Arab nations, cultures, languages, etc. Arabs believe they are far
superior to others. They even invented Islam as a tool for that
purpose; to establish their superioity on others. Europeans too
equally hated (and still do) Arabs and all non-Europeans, their
culture, religion, language, etc. Europeans too believe they are far
superior to others. Europeans too hasused Christianity (still do) to
establish their superiority on others even though Christianity's
purpose is not help one nation/race to establish its superiority on
others.
That intense hostility between Arabs and Europeans goes back to
pre-Roman times. Christianity failed misserably to educate and improve
Europeans to become better human beings. But, Europeans have remained
barbaric, brutal and blood-thirsty until very today. The thing
Europeans call "civilization" is actually nothing more than barbarism,
brutality and un-civilization; just like Arabs' empires. Arabs did not
convert to Christianity just because Europeans, Arabs' arch enemies,
converted to Christianity. But, Arabs invented their own cult (or,
religion), Islam, to better unite against Europeans and force and/or
entice other non-Europeans to Islam and therefore against Europeans.
vatan...@web.de (Monsef) wrote in message news:<a2dc236c.03070...@posting.google.com>...
Monsef
pre-Islamic thinkers or persecuted "forced moslem" free thinkers?
Islam was just the trucker - it managed to ship some arts and sciences
from the ancients to the renaissance. Not more.
What part of philosphy is attribute to moslems (except the persecuted
ones)?
Less than 1 % of philosophy since 620 AD can be attribute to moslems.
And less than 0.1% of philosophy can be attributed to non-persecuted
moslems.
Why don't you name some ey?
"Ala Mohseni" <ala_m...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<FI5Oa.42503$n%5....@nwrddc02.gnilink.net>...
Monsef
Tifkovic.
So now you racially attack the messenger out of desperation ey?
Didn't you know your pedophile Mohammad once self-servingly said "do
not attack the messenger for the message ...."?
tu...@shaw.ca wrote in message news:<3f08ec4b.9451671@shawnews>...
Monsef
to non-persecuted moslems of this supposed "Golden Age"?
"cameron" <cba...@shaw.ca> wrote in message news:<pan.2003.07.08....@shaw.ca>...
tu...@shaw.ca
>Didn't you know your pedophile Mohammad once self-servingly said "do
>not attack the messenger for the message ...."?
your daddy is a pedofile
and you're a wanker
Mirza Ghalib
So were Plato, Aristotle, Newton, Galileo, and many others.
Self-deception, thy name is Islam.
tu...@shaw.ca
>Didn't you know your pedophile Mohammad once self-servingly said "do
>not attack the messenger for the message ...."?
your daddy is a pedofile
Nima Rezai
Denker des Propheten" by Wolfgang Guenther Lerch and then shut up once and
for all.
Also:
http://www.muslimheritage.com/topics/default.cfm?TaxonomyTypeID=12
You deny the contributions of Muslims and try to turn their role down to
sole transmitters.
Fine, but how comes that whole empires such as Byzantium and Persia were not
able to transmit comparable knowledge throughout thousands of years of their
existence?
Where or who are the pre-islamic scientists, poets and artists of Iran? Ah,
yes, the Arabs burnt it all, I guess.
Just like the hoax about Omar burning the library of Alexandria, yes?
I also recommend that you go and read Fischer publications "Griechen und
Perser" to learn about pre-islamic Iran. Surely, at that times their were no
Arabs who you could blame for burning the evidences about great pre-islamic
iranian scientific achievements.
Nima
gyAth-Abadi
> to non-persecuted moslems of this supposed "Golden Age"?
>
These brain deads put "AL" infornt of most scientists like Al-KHayyam
Al-Kharazmi or Al-Sina and count them as moslem scholars. For the sake
of argument let assume these were Arab or moslem scholars, then the
big question is, WHAT HAVE YOU PEOPLE DONE LATELY? :) Say oh past 500 years :))
Did Taliban have Mars lander? and how about those Saudi Astro-Nuts :))))
How about those world class Yemeni doctors and brain surgents :)))
By admission of these IRI thugs most scientists are running away from ISLAMIC
fucking Iran and their destination is not that great land of science and culture
Saudi Arabia. Some of these morons need to wake up and smell the coffee.
Islam stinks and always has. Why? Because it is one religion that officailly
tries to mix with politic.
Monsef
But your self-anointed "messenger of God" must have been quite
titillated when he married a 6 year old Aisha, a kid of an underling,
as has been amply documented in the Hadith - ey?
tu...@shaw.ca wrote in message news:<3f0b9b5a.52139921@shawnews>...
tu...@shaw.ca wrote in message news:<3f0b9b5a.52139921@shawnews>...
Monsef
A good example is the concept of the whole number zero. This concept
was invented by the Hindus. The moslems copied it and passed it on to
the Europeans. For a long time they were claiming they had invented
the zero.
mash_...@mailandnews.com (gyAth-Abadi) wrote in message news:<cf321157.0307...@posting.google.com>...
Monsef
Freemont, California. And bisavaad is your own Molla Ali ColAq.
So you can't refute the points raised in this article, and instead you
want to censor me ("shut up once and for all"). Is this how you are
going to treat critiques of Islam like Dashti and Ibn Warraq - with
your brand of "Islamic tolerance" in abundance here?
So how is it that the lack of comparative transmission of ancient
knowledge by Persians and Byzantines make the moslem Arabs the creator
of such knowledge? Logic does not follow.
And that since Persia has not contributed significantly to science,
knowledge, and arts, that this is evidence of an Islamic Golden Age?
Isn't this typical Islamic sanbali (obfuscation) - or is this the
logic of your so-called "civilization" (my left foot), that you want
to enter into dialog with the modern world?
Omar burning the Library of Alexandria is just a red herring, and
nobody can claim that.
Can't you so-called "good moslems" show how Islam has directly
contributed to science and knowledge, without putting down Persia, and
without personally attacking people who post articles?
So back to the original inquiry, Mr. Nima Reza-ee, Ayerab wannabee,
yek zed-e Irani, O' tell me, what part of mathematics and
philosophical knowledge is attributed to non-persecuted "true
moslems"? ey?
"Nima Rezai" <Ni...@ngi.de> wrote in message news:<beh43v$53jf5$1...@ID-42147.news.dfncis.de>...
> Since you bisavaad seem to live in Germany, I comment that you read "Die
> Denker des Propheten" by Wolfgang Guenther Lerch and then shut up once and
> for all.
>
> Also:
> http://www.muslimheritage.com/topics/default.cfm?Tax
>
Nima Rezai
those same hadith contradict themselves strongly about Aishas age.
In fact many of them point toward a much more realistic age of 14-18.
since none of M.s other wives was even close to infantile age it is not
sufficient to say that M. was blended by Aishas childish beauty.
Then why the hell did he otherwise marry so many old widows or divorced
women?
I have good sources that refute the Aisha story in details.
N.
gyAth-Abadi
> :-)
>
> A good example is the concept of the whole number zero. This concept
> was invented by the Hindus. The moslems copied it and passed it on to
> the Europeans. For a long time they were claiming they had invented
> the zero.
>
what???!!! :) zero wasn't invented by moslems?! Please verify this :)
don't take this away from them otherwise they will be left
with nothing or zero :))))
Tony Lew
> :-)
>
> A good example is the concept of the whole number zero. This concept
> was invented by the Hindus. The moslems copied it and passed it on to
> the Europeans. For a long time they were claiming they had invented
> the zero.
Actually, they didn't lie. They originally said, "We invented nothing",
and it was mis-translated as "We invented zero". :-)
Monsef
Nima jAn - you can't have it both ways. Hadiths are one of the
pillars of the faith. You can't take ownership of favorable ones, and
then excuse the sorry ones as being inaccurate, even if it is from
Bukhari. A more ingenious argument would have been that these
practices were quite moral back in those days.
Mohammand's married life is full of irregularities. From keeping
faithful to his first wife as long as the huge inheritance was
undecided, to having 14 wives, to sleeping with some and not the older
ones, to being so fascinated with the beauty of some of his wives, to
favoring sleeping with Maria the slave girl, to cheating on his wives,
to the opportune Ayeh coming down absolving him from such disloyalty,
to telling people to beat their wives gently if they disobey, etc. a
pattern of conduct and excuses develops, which puts a cloud on his
character.
A true spiritual old man would not be so sexually active to screw a 14
year old (your claim) with such relish.
What makes you think he is a prophet in the first place, and not just
some smart qoldor who managed to promote himself to the rulership of
Arabia?
"Nima Rezai" <Ni...@ngi.de> wrote in message news:<bemikd$6sk6e$1...@ID-42147.news.uni-berlin.de>...
Nima Rezai
> AqA'ye "good moslem" Nima Rezai - I don't live in Germany and am in
> Freemont, California. And bisavaad is your own Molla Ali ColAq.
Funny. When you run out of arguments you try to defame your opponent by
associating him to IRI.
I was not Muslim because of Geda Ali and I will hence not leave Islam
because of him or other idiots.
> So you can't refute the points raised in this article, and instead you
> want to censor me ("shut up once and for all").
I was a bit harsh but I was not pointing at your weak article that
speculates instead of bringing facts. I countered your claim about
mathematicians and gave you a link and a book. I live in Germany and since
you use "web.de" I thought you are a german native speaker.
Your article concentrates on few personalities who it tries to prove as
non-muslim.
Ala´s point is true: Either they were indeed muslim or they were not but
could work good under an islamic regime. Both speaks for Islam.
Your article fails to evaluate the works of Farabi, Ghazali, Khwarazmi,
Saadi, Hafez, etc. who were certainly Muslims.
Besides, the main issue of your article is weak. It wants to prove that
Islam was not responsible for those geniuses. Ok, so what?
How comes that the pre-islamic systems with the exception of the Hellenians
did not create such an atmosphere of scientific interest?
Call it what you want, but arabic was that much the language of science as
English is today.
Even Christian/ European scientists turned to learn Arabic since it was the
language in which the knowledge of ancient Greece had survived. This was the
work of some Caliphs.
Why did not the Sassanians preserve the knowledge of their opponents?
> So how is it that the lack of comparative transmission of ancient
> knowledge by Persians and Byzantines make the moslem Arabs the creator
> of such knowledge? Logic does not follow.
Then your logic seems to have deficiencies, not mine.
The Arabs were seldom creators of science or knowledge but their role as
transmitters is still very big.
This alone is best evidence to show how deceiptful propaganda such as the
burning of Alexandria was (no serious historian holds this claim up
anymore).
> And that since Persia has not contributed significantly to science,
> knowledge, and arts, that this is evidence of an Islamic Golden Age?
No. You think that Muslims themselves invented such terms like "Golden age".
It were the Europeans who came in contact with them and profited from their
brighter knowledge. You folks think that if a muslim scientist was indeed a
persian this means that you have proven that it had not to do with the
atmosphere under which he worked.
> Omar burning the Library of Alexandria is just a red herring, and
> nobody can claim that.
Red herring? Whose red herring? The anti-muslim propaganda invented this and
other
legends to denounce Muslims and every anti-muslim willingly took a free-ride
on such
false accusations throughout history, and now you claim that I want to
detract attention from
the main topic by mentioning the lies about Omar?
> Can't you so-called "good moslems" show how Islam has directly
> contributed to science and knowledge, without putting down Persia, and
> without personally attacking people who post articles?
See above. I also gave you some sources, and there are many more. You have
to do your
research on your own.
> So back to the original inquiry, Mr. Nima Reza-ee, Ayerab wannabee,
> yek zed-e Irani, O' tell me, what part of mathematics and
> philosophical knowledge is attributed to non-persecuted "true
> moslems"? ey?
I wonder why the intellect of such people like you is so low. How do you
expect me to communicate
with you when you call me zede Irani when I only stuck to the statement that
indeed scientists under Islam
made significant contributions.
N.
MrMojoMan
--
- Long Live Iran, Down with the Islamic Republic -
-
- MrMojoMan
-
"Nima Rezai" <Ni...@ngi.de> wrote in message
news:beuher$93g52$1...@ID-42147.news.uni-berlin.de...
Pacifist
news:a2dc236c.03071...@posting.google.com
>
> A true spiritual old man would not be so sexually active to screw a 14
> year old (your claim) with such relish.
So...who appointed you the arbiter of how much sex drive people ought to
have and what the "right level" of it is before they lose spirituality?
And... are you more spiritual if you are impotent or "screw"
reluctantly, rather than with screw relish?
Your typically idiotic comment (replicated across most of the threads
that you defile with your interventions) shows, inter alia, that:-
- You are as judgmental and intolerant as the worst of your "basseji"
bete noirs.
- You are entirely incapable of sticking to the subject and exploring it
in any depth. As soon as you run out of ideas, you change the subject
and talk about something else.
- (Worst of all) You have little experience of life and what makes
people tick
Pacifist
--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG
Nima Rezai
Agar meil dareed be zaboone "mahali" mitoonid be man mail bezaneed.
Khoshhal mishim. :-)
MrMojoMan wrote:
> bah! Nima jun - to bixeh gooSeh mA zendegi mikoni va A xabar nadArim?
> :-))
>
Monsef
> Monsef wrote:
>
> > AqA'ye "good moslem" Nima Rezai - I don't live in Germany and am in
> > Freemont, California. And bisavaad is your own Molla Ali ColAq.
>
> Funny. When you run out of arguments you try to defame your opponent by
> associating him to IRI.
Wrong. You called me bisavAd without any provocation. So I called
Molla Ali bisavAd so not to hurt you.
> Ala´s point is true: Either they were indeed muslim or they were not but
> could work good under an islamic regime. Both speaks for Islam.
> Your article fails to evaluate the works of Farabi, Ghazali, Khwarazmi,
> Saadi, Hafez, etc. who were certainly Muslims.
The point of the article was that these individuals, many of them
moslem in name only, were shining lights despite Islam. Many of them
were actually prosecuted by Islam.
> Besides, the main issue of your article is weak. It wants to prove that
> Islam was not responsible for those geniuses. Ok, so what?
> How comes that the pre-islamic systems with the exception of the Hellenians
> did not create such an atmosphere of scientific interest?
"such an atmosphere of scientific interest" did not exist at anytime
in the Islamic "Golden Age". All you had were a few geniuses and
learned men and poets, quite apart in time and geography, working in
isolation, no proper academies, no proper libraries, no student
bodies, nothing. The only thing Islam had was that it was in
competition with the dark ages, so it shined comparatively. That is
all.
The flourishing of science, philosophy, politics, and art during the
Hellenic period, roughly the same duration as the Islamic Golden Age,
but 1000 years earlier and in a much smaller locality, were magnitudes
more germane and significant than all the original scholarship put
together in the Islamic empire. The Islamic Golden Age does not stand
up to the competition that appeared 1,000 years before it, and did not
have the benefit of predecessors that it could "transmit".
> Call it what you want, but arabic was that much the language of science as
> English is today.
> Even Christian/ European scientists turned to learn Arabic since it was the
> language in which the knowledge of ancient Greece had survived. This was the
> work of some Caliphs.
> Why did not the Sassanians preserve the knowledge of their opponents?
>
> > So how is it that the lack of comparative transmission of ancient
> > knowledge by Persians and Byzantines make the moslem Arabs the creator
> > of such knowledge? Logic does not follow.
>
> Then your logic seems to have deficiencies, not mine.
> The Arabs were seldom creators of science or knowledge but their role as
> transmitters is still very big.
> This alone is best evidence to show how deceiptful propaganda such as the
> burning of Alexandria was (no serious historian holds this claim up
> anymore).
>
> > And that since Persia has not contributed significantly to science,
> > knowledge, and arts, that this is evidence of an Islamic Golden Age?
>
> No.
But that is what you said.
> You think that Muslims themselves invented such terms like "Golden age".
> It were the Europeans who came in contact with them and profited from their
> brighter knowledge. You folks think that if a muslim scientist was indeed a
> persian this means that you have proven that it had not to do with the
> atmosphere under which he worked.
The atmosphere was quite repressive in many ways as source of
knowledge in Islam is God and and not man.
> > Omar burning the Library of Alexandria is just a red herring, and
> > nobody can claim that.
>
> Red herring? Whose red herring? The anti-muslim propaganda invented this and
> other
> legends to denounce Muslims and every anti-muslim willingly took a free-ride
> on such
> false accusations throughout history, and now you claim that I want to
> detract attention from
> the main topic by mentioning the lies about Omar?
>
> > Can't you so-called "good moslems" show how Islam has directly
> > contributed to science and knowledge, without putting down Persia, and
> > without personally attacking people who post articles?
>
> See above. I also gave you some sources, and there are many more. You have
> to do your
> research on your own.
>
> > So back to the original inquiry, Mr. Nima Reza-ee, Ayerab wannabee,
> > yek zed-e Irani, O' tell me, what part of mathematics and
> > philosophical knowledge is attributed to non-persecuted "true
> > moslems"? ey?
>
> I wonder why the intellect of such people like you is so low. How do you
> expect me to communicate
> with you when you call me zede Irani when I only stuck to the statement that
> indeed scientists under Islam
> made significant contributions.
I guess when you call people without provocation "bisavAd" and "shut
up once for all", you may expect to see some retaliation. The zed-e
Irani comment comes from the fact that you want to impose your Islamic
biases without justification and quite illegitimately, on the people
of Iran, including myself, by advocating a government based on this
ideology. That's all.
It would be quite helpful instead of throwing book links (which is
certainly unclear what they are and does not help this debate) if you
and those who claim without substantiation an Islamic Golden Age in
mathematics and philosophy, would back their word and actually tell us
what parts of mathematics and philosophical knowledge is attributed to
moslem scholars, especially those scholars that were approved by the
Islamic establishment and were not prosecuted. You will not be able
to find many - I would say.
Brahim Machkour
> ones)?
>
> Less than 1 % of philosophy since 620 AD can be attribute to moslems.
> And less than 0.1% of philosophy can be attributed to non-persecuted
> moslems.
>
> Why don't you name some ey?
First philosophy does not compose all fields of knowledge and in itself
maybe 1% ;)
Islamic countries were light for Europe when they were just in the
dark...
If you are truthful in your will in seaching for knowledge and not
say nonsens like Islam is just fake and they didn't influence and
increse knowledge of humanity like any other civilization when they
were at the top,
you can check : http://www.islamset.com/heritage/history.html
Thank you
Brahim.
Dudly Doright
@posting.google.com:
> http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Printable.asp?ID=4626
>
> The problem with turning this list of intellectual achievements into a
> convincing "Islamic" golden age is that whatever flourished, did so
> not by reason of Islam but in spite of Islam. Moslems overran
> societies (Persian, Greek, Egyptian, Byzantine, Syrian, Jewish) that
> possessed intellectual sophistication in their own right and failed to
> completely destroy their cultures. To give it the credit for what the
> remnants of these cultures achieved is like crediting the Red Army for
> the survival of Chopin in Warsaw in 1970! Islam per se never
> encouraged science, in the sense of disinterested enquiry, because the
> only knowledge it accepts is religious knowledge.
>
> The Golden Age of Islam is a Myth
> By Serge Trifkovic
> FrontPageMagazine.com | November 15, 2002
>
>
> view — utterly heretical from a Moslem viewpoint — that reason is
> superior to revelation. He saw religion as a symbolic rendering of
> truth, and, like Plato, saw it as the duty of the philosopher to
> provide guidance to the state. He engaged in rationalistic questioning
> of the authority of the Koran and rejected predestination. He wrote
> more than 100 works, notably The Ideas of the Citizens of the Virtuous
> City. But these unorthodox works no more belong to Islam than Voltaire
> belongs to Christianity. He was in Moslem culture but not of it,
> indeed opposed to its orthodox core. He examples the pattern we see
> again and again: the best Moslems, whether judged by intellectual or
> political achievement, are usually the least Moslem.
>
> The Moslem mainstream of this time, on the other hand, emphasized
> rigid Koranic orthodoxy and deployed Greek philosophy and science
> solely to buttress its authority. "They were rationalists in so far as
> they fell back on Greek philosophy for their metaphysical and physical
> explanations of phenomena; still, it was their aim to keep within the
> limits of orthodox belief." But when the thinkers went too far in
> their free inquiry into the secrets of nature, paying little attention
> to the authority of the Koran, they aroused suspicion of the rulers
> both in North Africa and Spain, as well as in the East. Persecution,
> exile, and death were frequent punishments suffered by the
> philosophers of Islam whose writings did not conform to the canon.
>
> On the other side of the Empire, in Spain, Averroës exercised much
> The problem with turning this list of intellectual achievements into a
> convincing "Islamic" golden age is that whatever flourished, did so
> not by reason of Islam but in spite of Islam. Moslems overran
> societies (Persian, Greek, Egyptian, Byzantine, Syrian, Jewish) that
> possessed intellectual sophistication in their own right and failed to
> completely destroy their cultures. To give it the credit for what the
> remnants of these cultures achieved is like crediting the Red Army for
very good article
Muslims Always Victorious
with caution
Keep an eye on these trolls:
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Chip Anderson
news:1169063861.2...@51g2000cwl.googlegroups.com:
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Be especially watchful for this freak posting from Canada:
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t-for-mail
From: "Muslims Always Victorious" <zim...@295.ca>
Newsgroups:
soc.culture.iranian,alt.religion.islam,soc.culture.turkish,soc.culture.iraq
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Subject: Warning there are anti-Islam forgers and trolls amongst us,
proceed with caution
Date: 17 Jan 2007 11:57:41 -0800
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Chip
Oderint dum metuant
-Lucius Accius