A Turkish Art Dating Back Five Centruies
TRKNWS-L
A Turkish Art Dating Back Five Centruies
by Cuneyt TAYLANER
The art of "ebru", or marbling as it is known in English, is a
mysterious art whose history and technique hold many secrets. By
whom, when or how ebru was discovered is unknown.
However, researchers agree that it originated in the city of
Bukhara in Turkistan, and from here spread via the Silk Road to
Persia, India and Anatolia.
One of the greatest masters of ebru, Ethem Efendi (1829-1904), was
the son of Sadik Efendi of Bukhara (?-1846), seyh of the Ozbekler
dervish tekke or lodge in Istanbul. Ethem Efendi used to say that
"ebru is like magic; sometimes it works and sometimes not".
The difficulties entailed by ebru lend it an uncertainty which is
certainly part of its fascination. One of the best contemporary
ebru artists, Mustafa Duzgunman, says the following: "Ebru has a
perpetually changing harmony, and requires great dedication and
patience."
The word ebru is defined in modern dictionaries as "coloured wavy
patterns on paper". This patterned paper was traditionally used to
line bookbindings, but today ebru pieces are often framed as
pictures. In outline the traditional method is as follows: First a
solution of gum tragacanth is placed in a deep tray.
The sap obtained from the stems of Astragalus Tragacantha, gum
tragacanth, gives viscosity to the water who had originated this
ideas. No one knows.
The origin of the method of preparing the pigments is another
mystery. Having been ground to a fine powder, the pigments are
mixed with some of the gum tragacanth solution to the consistency
of honey.
Then one or two small spoonfuls of fresh cattle gall are added to
aid surface fluidity. The paints are now ready to use.
Beginning with the darkest colour. The paints are dripped or
sprinkled onto the surface of the solution with a brush. Dipping a
stiff hair or stick into the water, the paint is gently swirled
into the desired pattern.
A sheet of paper is now gently placed on the surface of the
solution, and after waiting a few seconds it is carefully lifted.
Ebru enjoyed its golden age between 1580 and 1700, when ebru
compositions made by artists centred around Beyazit in Istanbul
fetched high prices in Europe and America under the name "Turkish
paper" or "Turkish marble paper".
Today examples of these fine pieces are to be seen in museums and
libraries all over the world. No traveller to Istanbul leaves
without purchasing some of this colourfully patterned paper with
designs resembling clouds or marble.
In many cases these items were bound as albums, and as a result
ebru became increasingly well known in Europe. Although knowledge
of the technique spread to Europe, preparing the solution of gum
tragacanth correctly proved a serious problem, and artists failed
to match the quality of Turkish ebru.
Eventually, in 1884, they abandoned gum tragacanth altogether in
favour of badderlock, the discovery of Joseph Halfer. a marbler
from Budapest.
Although ebru was originally used to produce purely abstract
designs. as the skills of its practitioners increased bringing
increased control over the end result, experiments were made with
figurative designs.
However, success did not come until Necmeddin Okyay (1883-1976)
finally succeeded in creating flower designs.
His ebru carnations. poppies, tulips, violets, hyacinths and other
flowers are extremenly lovely. and attracted a fresh wave of
interest in Turkish ebru around the world. Mustafa Duzgunman added
daisies to the floral repertoire.
The last phase in the development of ebru as an art rather than as
a means of pure decoration was the work of Ahmet Saral, who learnt
it from Mustafa Duzgunman after visiting an exhibition of the
latter's work.
Ahmet Saral is convinced that mineral pigments are a key to the
aesthetic value of ebru. By creating a grainy or wavy effect with
these pigments, the finished result is not only more attractive
but reflects natural textures.
He says that the western ebru technique using badderlock and
soluble pigments does not achieve the same aesthetic quality and
diversity as the traditional method.
Saral specialises in creating magnificient compositions of
miniature flowers and says that anyone who has tried their hand at
ebru will realise that creating flower designs is far more
difficult than it might seem at first sight.
So difficult, indeed, that only a handful of artists can do at all
it properly.
Ahmet Saral says that miniature flowers are still, harder to
produce and only after long trails did he succeed in producing
these designs.
Another challenge which Saral has set himself is exploring the
possibilities of figurative ebru compositions.
Having decided upon a subject he produces a series of ebru
pictures along that theme. His fish series, for example, is a
truly remarkable demonstration of ebru's versatility. / SKYLIFE
***************************************************************************
Send email to Turkish Radio Hour <t...@aimnet.com> to subscribe to TRKNWS-L
The URL for TRKNWS-L is http://www.cs.nwu.edu/~yusuf/turkey/trknws/
***************************************************************************
-Surensoy,E.
The word "ebru" is a Persian word means as mentioned below. So,
my guess is that may be the art of marbling (ebru) was invented by
Persians who excelled in the art of miniature, and adapted and
perfected by Turks.
../..
In article <58t3bv$f...@news.acns.nwu.edu>, TRKNWS-L <t...@aimnet.com> wrote:
)
)A Turkish Art Dating Back Five Centruies
)by Cuneyt TAYLANER
)
)The art of "ebru", or marbling as it is known in English, is a
)mysterious art whose history and technique hold many secrets. By
)whom, when or how ebru was discovered is unknown.
)However, researchers agree that it originated in the city of
)Bukhara in Turkistan, and from here spread via the Silk Road to
)Persia, India and Anatolia.
)
)One of the greatest masters of ebru, Ethem Efendi (1829-1904), was
)the son of Sadik Efendi of Bukhara (?-1846), seyh of the Ozbekler
)dervish tekke or lodge in Istanbul. Ethem Efendi used to say that
)"ebru is like magic; sometimes it works and sometimes not".
)The difficulties entailed by ebru lend it an uncertainty which is
)certainly part of its fascination. One of the best contemporary
)ebru artists, Mustafa Duzgunman, says the following: "Ebru has a
)perpetually changing harmony, and requires great dedication and
)patience."
)
)The word ebru is defined in modern dictionaries as "coloured wavy
)patterns on paper". This patterned paper was traditionally used to
)line bookbindings, but today ebru pieces are often framed as
)pictures. In outline the traditional method is as follows: First a
)solution of gum tragacanth is placed in a deep tray.
)The sap obtained from the stems of Astragalus Tragacantha, gum
)tragacanth, gives viscosity to the water who had originated this
)ideas. No one knows.
)
)The origin of the method of preparing the pigments is another
)mystery. Having been ground to a fine powder, the pigments are
)mixed with some of the gum tragacanth solution to the consistency
)of honey.
)
)Then one or two small spoonfuls of fresh cattle gall are added to
)aid surface fluidity. The paints are now ready to use.
)Beginning with the darkest colour. The paints are dripped or
)sprinkled onto the surface of the solution with a brush. Dipping a
)stiff hair or stick into the water, the paint is gently swirled
)into the desired pattern.
)
)A sheet of paper is now gently placed on the surface of the
)solution, and after waiting a few seconds it is carefully lifted.
)Ebru enjoyed its golden age between 1580 and 1700, when ebru
)compositions made by artists centred around Beyazit in Istanbul
)fetched high prices in Europe and America under the name "Turkish
)paper" or "Turkish marble paper".
)
)Today examples of these fine pieces are to be seen in museums and
)libraries all over the world. No traveller to Istanbul leaves
)without purchasing some of this colourfully patterned paper with
)designs resembling clouds or marble.
)
)In many cases these items were bound as albums, and as a result
)ebru became increasingly well known in Europe. Although knowledge
)of the technique spread to Europe, preparing the solution of gum
)tragacanth correctly proved a serious problem, and artists failed
)to match the quality of Turkish ebru.
)
)Eventually, in 1884, they abandoned gum tragacanth altogether in
)favour of badderlock, the discovery of Joseph Halfer. a marbler
)from Budapest.
)
)Although ebru was originally used to produce purely abstract
)designs. as the skills of its practitioners increased bringing
)increased control over the end result, experiments were made with
)figurative designs.
)
)However, success did not come until Necmeddin Okyay (1883-1976)
)finally succeeded in creating flower designs.
)His ebru carnations. poppies, tulips, violets, hyacinths and other
)flowers are extremenly lovely. and attracted a fresh wave of
)interest in Turkish ebru around the world. Mustafa Duzgunman added
)daisies to the floral repertoire.
)
)The last phase in the development of ebru as an art rather than as
)a means of pure decoration was the work of Ahmet Saral, who learnt
)it from Mustafa Duzgunman after visiting an exhibition of the
)latter's work.
)
)Ahmet Saral is convinced that mineral pigments are a key to the
)aesthetic value of ebru. By creating a grainy or wavy effect with
)these pigments, the finished result is not only more attractive
)but reflects natural textures.
)
)He says that the western ebru technique using badderlock and
)soluble pigments does not achieve the same aesthetic quality and
)diversity as the traditional method.
)
)Saral specialises in creating magnificient compositions of
)miniature flowers and says that anyone who has tried their hand at
)ebru will realise that creating flower designs is far more
)difficult than it might seem at first sight.
)
)So difficult, indeed, that only a handful of artists can do at all
)it properly.
)
)Ahmet Saral says that miniature flowers are still, harder to
)produce and only after long trails did he succeed in producing
)these designs.
)
)Another challenge which Saral has set himself is exploring the
)possibilities of figurative ebru compositions.
)
)Having decided upon a subject he produces a series of ebru
)pictures along that theme. His fish series, for example, is a
)truly remarkable demonstration of ebru's versatility. / SKYLIFE
)
)***************************************************************************
)Send email to Turkish Radio Hour <t...@aimnet.com> to subscribe to TRKNWS-L
)The URL for TRKNWS-L is http://www.cs.nwu.edu/~yusuf/turkey/trknws/
)***************************************************************************
KMcNeil55
Somebody with a user name of "Enis Surensoy" wrote:
The word "ebru" is a Persian word means as mentioned below. So,
my guess is that may be the art of marbling (ebru) was invented by
Persians who excelled in the art of miniature, and adapted and
perfected by Turks.
Yahu sen Turk'musun nemisin. Bu ne bokluk boyle. Hayvan herif!!
Turklere ait olan mali nasil hemen Iranlilara hediye edersin. Seni cahil
ayi.
Kicindan konusuyorsun vatan haini. Belli ki sen Turk degilsin!
Sana bir sey diyebilirim, o da, bize ait (yani hakiki Turklere ait) mali
sen kendi
kendinle baskalarina hediye edemezsin. Anladinmi? Biz kendimize ait olan
mali cok iyi biliriz ve baskalarinada vermeyiz.
Allah senin belani versin.
-Surensoy,E.
Upon receiving from an idiot a most unrespectful and uncivil response
I looked up "marbling"; I found an entry only in the Encyclopedia
Britanica which says the following:
"Marbled Pottery, a type of ware obtained by mixing clays of
various colours to imitate natural marbles or agate. The working
of marbled pattery can be traced back at least as far as the 1st
century AD in Rome and samples of the ware produced as far from
Rome as China. Techniques included the use of decorative bansd
os white-, brown-, and gray-marbled clay; tortoiseshell, obtained
by molting glazes with manganese brown; laying the slabs of
various coloured clay on each other and beating them into a
homegenous mass (agate ware); and migling coloured clay slips
(liquid clay) on the surface of a clay form."
There is no entry on "Turkish paper" or "Turkish marble paper" in this
or any other encyclopedia or other references. That does't necessarily
mean that the "Turkish paper" was not a successful and popular art
form; but it may necessarily indicate the reluctance of acknowledging
by the West as part of their prejudice against Turks anything good
that Turks achieve.
So the idea of "marbling" goes back to Roman times and performed as
"far from Rome as China". It may not be even a Persian invention
after all. Since the word "ebru" is a Persian word, marbling may have
been introduced to Turkish artists by the Persian artists who gave it
its name in Persian language; then the Turkish artist took it and
perfected it; otherwise, why a Turk would name his art by a Persian
word.
About the idiot above, I remember an old saying: "When you are stupid
enough to wrestle with a pig, you get muddy and the pig loves it".
I assume that is the price you have to pay when you want to express
your opinions on SCT.
../..
In article <58uifq$f...@ssbunews.ih.lucent.com),
-Surensoy,E. <en...@ihgp1.ih.att.com) wrote:
) The word "ebru" is a Persian word means as mentioned below. So,
) my guess is that may be the art of marbling (ebru) was invented by
) Persians who excelled in the art of miniature, and adapted and
) perfected by Turks.
)
) ../..
)
)
)In article <58t3bv$f...@news.acns.nwu.edu>, TRKNWS-L <t...@aimnet.com> wrote:
))
))A Turkish Art Dating Back Five Centruies
))by Cuneyt TAYLANER
))
))The art of "ebru", or marbling as it is known in English, is a
))mysterious art whose history and technique hold many secrets. By
))whom, when or how ebru was discovered is unknown.
))However, researchers agree that it originated in the city of
))Bukhara in Turkistan, and from here spread via the Silk Road to
))Persia, India and Anatolia.
))
))One of the greatest masters of ebru, Ethem Efendi (1829-1904), was
))the son of Sadik Efendi of Bukhara (?-1846), seyh of the Ozbekler
))dervish tekke or lodge in Istanbul. Ethem Efendi used to say that
))"ebru is like magic; sometimes it works and sometimes not".
))The difficulties entailed by ebru lend it an uncertainty which is
))certainly part of its fascination. One of the best contemporary
))ebru artists, Mustafa Duzgunman, says the following: "Ebru has a
))perpetually changing harmony, and requires great dedication and
))patience."
))
))The word ebru is defined in modern dictionaries as "coloured wavy
))patterns on paper". This patterned paper was traditionally used to
))line bookbindings, but today ebru pieces are often framed as
))pictures. In outline the traditional method is as follows: First a
))solution of gum tragacanth is placed in a deep tray.
))The sap obtained from the stems of Astragalus Tragacantha, gum
))tragacanth, gives viscosity to the water who had originated this
))ideas. No one knows.
))
))The origin of the method of preparing the pigments is another
))mystery. Having been ground to a fine powder, the pigments are
))mixed with some of the gum tragacanth solution to the consistency
))of honey.
))
))Then one or two small spoonfuls of fresh cattle gall are added to
))aid surface fluidity. The paints are now ready to use.
))Beginning with the darkest colour. The paints are dripped or
))sprinkled onto the surface of the solution with a brush. Dipping a
))stiff hair or stick into the water, the paint is gently swirled
))into the desired pattern.
))
))A sheet of paper is now gently placed on the surface of the
))solution, and after waiting a few seconds it is carefully lifted.
))Ebru enjoyed its golden age between 1580 and 1700, when ebru
))compositions made by artists centred around Beyazit in Istanbul
))fetched high prices in Europe and America under the name "Turkish
))paper" or "Turkish marble paper".
))
))Today examples of these fine pieces are to be seen in museums and
))libraries all over the world. No traveller to Istanbul leaves
))without purchasing some of this colourfully patterned paper with
))designs resembling clouds or marble.
))
))In many cases these items were bound as albums, and as a result
))ebru became increasingly well known in Europe. Although knowledge
))of the technique spread to Europe, preparing the solution of gum
))tragacanth correctly proved a serious problem, and artists failed
))to match the quality of Turkish ebru.
))
))Eventually, in 1884, they abandoned gum tragacanth altogether in
))favour of badderlock, the discovery of Joseph Halfer. a marbler
))from Budapest.
))
))Although ebru was originally used to produce purely abstract
))designs. as the skills of its practitioners increased bringing
))increased control over the end result, experiments were made with
))figurative designs.
))
))However, success did not come until Necmeddin Okyay (1883-1976)
))finally succeeded in creating flower designs.
))His ebru carnations. poppies, tulips, violets, hyacinths and other
))flowers are extremenly lovely. and attracted a fresh wave of
))interest in Turkish ebru around the world. Mustafa Duzgunman added
))daisies to the floral repertoire.
))
))The last phase in the development of ebru as an art rather than as
))a means of pure decoration was the work of Ahmet Saral, who learnt
))it from Mustafa Duzgunman after visiting an exhibition of the
))latter's work.
))
))Ahmet Saral is convinced that mineral pigments are a key to the
))aesthetic value of ebru. By creating a grainy or wavy effect with
))these pigments, the finished result is not only more attractive
))but reflects natural textures.
))
))He says that the western ebru technique using badderlock and
))soluble pigments does not achieve the same aesthetic quality and
))diversity as the traditional method.
))
))Saral specialises in creating magnificient compositions of
))miniature flowers and says that anyone who has tried their hand at
))ebru will realise that creating flower designs is far more
))difficult than it might seem at first sight.
))
))So difficult, indeed, that only a handful of artists can do at all
))it properly.
))
))Ahmet Saral says that miniature flowers are still, harder to
))produce and only after long trails did he succeed in producing
))these designs.
))
))Another challenge which Saral has set himself is exploring the
))possibilities of figurative ebru compositions.
))
))Having decided upon a subject he produces a series of ebru
))pictures along that theme. His fish series, for example, is a
))truly remarkable demonstration of ebru's versatility. / SKYLIFE
))
))***************************************************************************
))Send email to Turkish Radio Hour <t...@aimnet.com> to subscribe to TRKNWS-L
))The URL for TRKNWS-L is http://www.cs.nwu.edu/~yusuf/turkey/trknws/
))***************************************************************************
)
)
)))soc.culture.turkish #128315 (0 + 615 more)
)))From: kmcn...@aol.com (KMcNeil55)
)))Subject: Re: A Turkish Art Dating Back Five Centruies
)))Date: Mon Dec 16 19:28:14 CST 1996
)))Organization: AOL Canada http://www.aol.ca
)))Lines: 19
)))X-Admin: ne...@aol.com
)))
)))Somebody with a user name of "Enis Surensoy" wrote:
)))
))) The word "ebru" is a Persian word means as mentioned below. So,
))) my guess is that may be the art of marbling (ebru) was invented by
)))
))) Persians who excelled in the art of miniature, and adapted and
))) perfected by Turks.
)))
)))Yahu sen Turk'musun nemisin. Bu ne bokluk boyle. Hayvan herif!!
)))Turklere ait olan mali nasil hemen Iranlilara hediye edersin. Seni cahil
)))ayi.
)))Kicindan konusuyorsun vatan haini. Belli ki sen Turk degilsin!
)))
)))Sana bir sey diyebilirim, o da, bize ait (yani hakiki Turklere ait) mali
)))sen kendi
)))kendinle baskalarina hediye edemezsin. Anladinmi? Biz kendimize ait olan
)))mali cok iyi biliriz ve baskalarinada vermeyiz.
)))
)))Allah senin belani versin.
)))
Murat Kalinyaprak
"Enis Surensoy" wrote:
> The word "ebru" is a Persian word means as mentioned below.
> So, my guess is that may be the art of marbling (ebru) was
> invented by Persians who excelled in the art of miniature,
> and adapted and perfected by Turks.
Why do have a constant need to make such statements
based on guesses...? Although "ebru" is a Persian
word, your logic is flawed unless you know exactly
what it means in Persian... Could you please tell
us all meanings of "ebru" in Persian, possibly in
chronoligical order with the original and earlier
meanings first and later meanings last...?
If the Persian meaning of "ebru" is not or was not
limited to "art of marbling" then your assumption
is clearly wrong... If it had a less specific meaning
like "multi colored", then it is very possible that
a Persian word with such a meaning could have been
used by Turks in a more specific meaning as a name
for an art they "invented"...
Since you volunteered your "guess" on the subject,
maybe you can find out the "truth" and tell us
about it for sure...
MK
-Surensoy,E.
First, thank you for showing a small sign of civility by not swearing
like so many human-rights-respecting Turks of the SCT do very casually.
Secondly, according to the Turkish dictionary of "Turk Dil Kurumu"
(Turkish Language Institute) of Ankara, Turkiye, the word "ebru" is
strictly limited " to the art of marbling". If you bothered to look up,
you would very easily see that.
Thirdly, look up the Encyclopedia Britanica, you will see:
"Marbled Pottery, a type of ware obtained by mixing clays of
various colours to imitate natural marbles or agate. The working
of marbled pattery can be traced back at least as far as the 1st
century AD in Rome and samples of the ware produced as far from
Rome as China. Techniques included the use of decorative bansd
os white-, brown-, and gray-marbled clay; tortoiseshell, obtained
by molting glazes with manganese brown; laying the slabs of
various coloured clay on each other and beating them into a
homegenous mass (agate ware); and migling coloured clay slips
(liquid clay) on the surface of a clay form."
The Encyclopedia also shows a picture of a "Chinesese marbled ware
jar, T'ang dynasty (AD 618-907; in the Museum of Fine Arts, Boston,
USA"
So the idea of "marbling" goes back to Roman times and performed as
"far from Rome as China". It may not be even a Persian invention
after all. Since the word "ebru" is a Persian word, marbling may have
been introduced to Turkish artists by the Persian artists who gave it
its name in Persian language; then the Turkish artist took it and
perfected it; otherwise, why a Turk would name his art by a Persian
word.
Is perfecting an art form to its highest levels by fellow Turk(s) not
enough for you or for the so called human rights respecting Turks of
the SCT who swear to others' opinions so casually??
../..
In article <59betd$6...@cpmt.cyberport.net>,
Murat Kalinyaprak <mu...@cyberport.net> wrote:
)"Enis Surensoy" wrote:
)
)) The word "ebru" is a Persian word means as mentioned below.
)) So, my guess is that may be the art of marbling (ebru) was
)) invented by Persians who excelled in the art of miniature,
)) and adapted and perfected by Turks.
)
)Why do have a constant need to make such statements
)based on guesses...? Although "ebru" is a Persian
)word, your logic is flawed unless you know exactly
)what it means in Persian... Could you please tell
)us all meanings of "ebru" in Persian, possibly in
)chronoligical order with the original and earlier
)meanings first and later meanings last...?
)
)If the Persian meaning of "ebru" is not or was not
)limited to "art of marbling" then your assumption
)is clearly wrong... If it had a less specific meaning
)like "multi colored", then it is very possible that
)a Persian word with such a meaning could have been
)used by Turks in a more specific meaning as a name
)for an art they "invented"...
)
)Since you volunteered your "guess" on the subject,
)maybe you can find out the "truth" and tell us
)about it for sure...
)
)MK
Murat Kalinyaprak
In <59buek$2...@ssbunews.ih.lucent.com> -Surensoy,E. wrote:
>In <59betd$6...@cpmt.cyberport.net> Murat Kalinyaprak wrote:
>
>>"Enis Surensoy" wrote:
>>
>>> The word "ebru" is a Persian word means as mentioned below.
>>> So, my guess is that may be the art of marbling (ebru) was
>>> invented by Persians who excelled in the art of miniature,
>>> and adapted and perfected by Turks.
>>
>> Why do have a constant need to make such statements
>> based on guesses...? Although "ebru" is a Persian
>> word, your logic is flawed unless you know exactly
>> what it means in Persian... Could you please tell
>> us all meanings of "ebru" in Persian, possibly in
>> chronoligical order with the original and earlier
>> meanings first and later meanings last...?
>>
>> If the Persian meaning of "ebru" is not or was not
>> limited to "art of marbling" then your assumption
>> is clearly wrong... If it had a less specific meaning
>> like "multi colored", then it is very possible that
>> a Persian word with such a meaning could have been
>> used by Turks in a more specific meaning as a name
>> for an art they "invented"...
>>
>> Since you volunteered your "guess" on the subject,
>> maybe you can find out the "truth" and tell us
>> about it for sure...
>
> Secondly, according to the Turkish dictionary of "Turk Dil
> Kurumu" (Turkish Language Institute) of Ankara, Turkiye,
> the word "ebru" is strictly limited " to the art of marbling".
> If you bothered to look up, you would very easily see that.
Not only I thought I knew what "ebru" meant in
Turkish but I had also looked it up in the TDK
dictionary just to make sure before I wrote...
What I had asked was the meaning/s of the word
in Persian and whether it had the same meaning
as in Turkish. Did you look it up in a Persian
dictionary...?
In your first article, you referred to the art
of miniature. Since "miniature" is an English
word (at least while writing here in English),
would you say that English people invented it?
If not, a similar logic flaw may exist in your
"guess" about the Persian word "ebru"...
> Thirdly, look up the Encyclopedia Britanica, you will see:
> "Marbled Pottery, a type of ware obtained by mixing clays of
> various colours to imitate natural marbles or agate......
I don't have access to Encyclopedia Britanica,
but I searched for it in the Standard American
Encyclopedia. It says:
"In bookbinding, a process of ornamenting the edges
"of books by dipping them, when cut, in a through
"about two inches deep filled with gum water on the
"surface of which colored pigments have been thrown
"and disposed in various forms with a quill and comb.
"The colors adhering to the edge of the book are set
"by dashing cold water over them. Marbled papers for
"the sides of books are made in the same manner."
It does not mention anything about pottery. It
seems like the terminology is used for various
applications of the same technique in general.
> The Encyclopedia also shows a picture of a "Chinesese marbled
> ware jar, T'ang dynasty (AD 618-907.....
> So the idea of "marbling" goes back to Roman times and performed
> as "far from Rome as China". It may not be even a Persian
> invention after all. Since the word "ebru" is a Persian word,
> marbling may have been introduced to Turkish artists by the
> Persian artists who gave it its name in Persian language;
It "may have been", but it "may not have been"
also. "Ebru" in Persian may even mean "marble,
marbled pottery, etc". That does not eliminate
the possibility that the Turks might have used
that foreign word for marbled paper that looks
like marble or made using a similar process as
in making marbled pottery, etc...
Unless you know the facts for sure, raising an
opposing opinion to "ebru" being claimed as an
art form invented by Turks is unwarrented...
> then the Turkish artist took it and perfected it; otherwise,
> why a Turk would name his art by a Persian word.
Why not...? The Greek word "mermer" is used in
Turkish to say "marble". If the Turks had used
a word like "mermerleme" (literally "marbling")
instead of "ebru", would you have claimed that
it must have been invented by the Greeks...?
> Is perfecting an art form to its highest levels by fellow
> Turk(s) not enough for you
The questions is not what is enough for Turks,
nor whom invented "ebru"... You seem to be too
eager to talk down on Turks (and/or Ottomans),
based on guesses or whatever. I just wanted to
know what basis you had for the statements you
made about "ebru"...
> or for the so called human rights respecting Turks of the
> SCT who swear to others' opinions so casually??
I don't know what you are inferring by this.
I wouldn't mind knowing what do you consider
"swearing" in what I wrote?
MK
Murat Kalinyaprak
In <59fbde$1...@cpmt.cyberport.net> Murat Kalinyaprak wrote:
>What I had asked was the meaning/s of the word
>in Persian and whether it had the same meaning
>as in Turkish. Did you look it up in a Persian
>dictionary...?
I guess I'll follow up to my own posting... Here
are a couple of "ebru" related WWW links (among
others) with a short section from each one:
http://python.konbib.nl/kb/100hoogte/hh-en/hh095-en.html
"This marbling technique was used for the ‘Ebru papers’,
"originating from the old Turkish tribes of Central Asia.
"Although there is little reliable data about the genesis
"of this paper, it is supposed to have been made since the
"sixth century. The term ebru may be derived from ebr,
"meaning cloud." ^^^^
If this is true, then my suspicion that a Persian
word (or a derivative of it) could have been used
by the Turks in a more specific meaning may not be
too far off...
http://palimpsest.stanford.edu/don/dt/dt2182.html
"Little is known of the origin of marbling, but there seems
"to be little doubt that it was introduced into Western
"Europe from the East. Examples of Japanese marbling produced
"as early as 800 A.D. exist under the name of Sumingagashi.
"The Persians are considered to have been the first to use
"marbled papers in books, and examples of their work are found
"on the borders of some of their 16th century manuscripts."
If this is true, it would at least indicate that
marbling was possibly introduced to Persia by the
Turks, rather than the other way around. (Turkish
influence reached Persia way before 16th century).
MK
Deniz Akkus
-Surensoy,E. wrote:
> Thirdly, howcome when Turks introduced their food such as "sarma,
> dolma, doner, sish kebab, etc (stuffed grape leaves, stuffed pepper,
> sish kebab, doner, etc; as sarmades, dolmades etc in Greek) to other
> cultures with their Turkish names; but, when they wanted to introduce
> marbeling to Persian culture with a Persian name "ebru" ???
>
> Your explanation just does not make sense.
Looking at the origin of the word for something as evidence of where it
came from can be misleading. Arabic "burnoti" and Turkish "enfiye" for
snuff is one such example. Whereas the Arabs picked up Turkish "burun
otu" (nose weed) and made it into "burnoti", the Turks picked up enfiye
from Arabic. The native origin word in either language is not used.
Also, there is no guarantee that a change in meaning does not occur in
loanwords. As an example, the Arabic loanword in Turkish, "safak" means
dawn where as in Arabic it means dusk. Russian "izba" has been loaned
to Turkish as "izbe" but instead of meaning a small hut, it means a
dirty hovel.
Looking at the word to determine the origins of the object it represents
is fraught with difficulties. The native American bird, turkey is one
example. Once upon a time, an Indian rajah sent some fowl to the
Turkish sultan and the birds prospered in Turkey where they were known
as "hindi" (Indian). The Turkish sultan then sent some of these to the
English king and the birds in England were known as turkey hens. When
the pilgrims encountered the American fowl, they named it turkey because
it looked somewhat like these turkey hens. The Indian fowl has now been
forgotten, but the name turkey remains in English and the name hindi
remains in Turkish. Does this make turkey a bird of Anatolian or Indian
origin?
I know nothing about marbling and its history. However, trying to draw
conclusions about the origin and history of marbling from the origin of
the word used in Turkish for marbling is by no means guaranteed to give
you the correct answer.
regards,
Deniz Akkus
-Surensoy,E.
In article <59o5r7$f...@cpmt.cyberport.net>,
Murat Kalinyaprak <mu...@cyberport.net) wrote:
)In <59fbde$1...@cpmt.cyberport.net> Murat Kalinyaprak wrote:
)
)>What I had asked was the meaning/s of the word
)>in Persian and whether it had the same meaning
)>as in Turkish. Did you look it up in a Persian
)>dictionary...?
)
)I guess I'll follow up to my own posting... Here
)are a couple of "ebru" related WWW links (among
)others) with a short section from each one:
)
)
) http://python.konbib.nl/kb/100hoogte/hh-en/hh095-en.html
)
) "This marbling technique was used for the ‘Ebru papers’,
) "originating from the old Turkish tribes of Central Asia.
) "Although there is little reliable data about the genesis
) "of this paper, it is supposed to have been made since the
) "sixth century. The term ebru may be derived from ebr,
) "meaning cloud." ^^^^
)
)If this is true, then my suspicion that a Persian
)word (or a derivative of it) could have been used
)by the Turks in a more specific meaning may not be
)too far off...
)
)
) http://palimpsest.stanford.edu/don/dt/dt2182.html
)
) "Little is known of the origin of marbling, but there seems
) "to be little doubt that it was introduced into Western
) "Europe from the East. Examples of Japanese marbling produced
) "as early as 800 A.D. exist under the name of Sumingagashi.
) "The Persians are considered to have been the first to use
) "marbled papers in books, and examples of their work are found
) "on the borders of some of their 16th century manuscripts."
)
)If this is true, it would at least indicate that
)marbling was possibly introduced to Persia by the
)Turks, rather than the other way around. (Turkish
)influence reached Persia way before 16th century).
)
)MK
Whoever says "Little is known of the origin of marbling, but there
seems "to be little doubt that it was introduced into Western
Europe from the East." obviously did not look it up in the
Encyclopedia Britanica:
"Marbled Pottery, a type of ware obtained by mixing clays of
various colours to imitate natural marbles or agate. The working
of marbled pattery can be traced back at least as far as the 1st
century AD in Rome and samples of the ware produced as far from
Rome as China. Techniques included the use of decorative bansd
os white-, brown-, and gray-marbled clay; tortoiseshell, obtained
by molting glazes with manganese brown; laying the slabs of
various coloured clay on each other and beating them into a
homegenous mass (agate ware); and migling coloured clay slips
(liquid clay) on the surface of a clay form."
The Encyclopedia also shows a picture of a "Chinesese marbled ware
jar, T'ang dynasty (AD 618-907; in the Museum of Fine Arts, Boston,
USA"
Secondly, howcome "The Persians are considered to have been the
first to use marbled papers in books, and examples of their work are
found on the borders of some of their 16th century manuscripts."
while you conclude that "If this is true, it would at least indicate
that marbling was possibly introduced to Persia by the Turks, rather
than the other way around." ???
erol keskin
-Surensoy,E. wrote:
>
>
> Thirdly, howcome when Turks introduced their food such as "sarma,
> dolma, doner, sish kebab, etc (stuffed grape leaves, stuffed pepper,
> sish kebab, doner, etc; as sarmades, dolmades etc in Greek) to other
> cultures with their Turkish names; but, when they wanted to introduce
> marbeling to Persian culture with a Persian name "ebru" ???
>
> Your explanation just does not make sense.
>
>
Could it be that it is too noisy eat ceramic for lunch and
the result
is a big constipation?
Murat Kalinyaprak
In <59oukc$8...@ssbunews.ih.lucent.com> -Surensoy,E. wrote:
>In <59o5r7$f...@cpmt.cyberport.net> Murat Kalinyaprak wrote:
>> http://python.konbib.nl/kb/100hoogte/hh-en/hh095-en.html
>> The term ebru may be derived from ebr, "meaning cloud."
>> If this is true, then my suspicion that a Persian
>> word (or a derivative of it) could have been used
>> by the Turks in a more specific meaning may not be
>> too far off...
>> http://palimpsest.stanford.edu/don/dt/dt2182.html
>> "Little is known of the origin of marbling, but there seems
>> "to be little doubt that it was introduced into Western
>> "Europe from the East. Examples of Japanese marbling produced
>> "as early as 800 A.D. exist under the name of Sumingagashi.
>> "The Persians are considered to have been the first to use
>> "marbled papers in books, and examples of their work are found
>> "on the borders of some of their 16th century manuscripts."
>> If this is true, it would at least indicate that
>> marbling was possibly introduced to Persia by the
>> Turks, rather than the other way around. (Turkish
>> influence reached Persia way before 16th century).
> Whoever says "Little is known of the origin of marbling,
> but there seems "to be little doubt that it was introduced
> into Western Europe from the East." obviously did not look
> it up in the Encyclopedia Britanica:
>
> "Marbled Pottery, ..... can be traced back at least
> "as far as the 1st century AD in Rome .....
I previously gave the entry for "marbling" from a
different encyclopedia which didn't mention pottery
at all. Although the idea may be similar, the process
and the product of "marbling paper" and "marbling
pottery" are not quite the same. So, it may be a case
of "who understands what from *marbling*"... If you
do a search on Internet based on the word "marbling",
you won't hit many (or any) links that talk about
pottery. I think this may be a good indication of
what's generally understood by "marbling"...
> Secondly, howcome "The Persians are considered to have been
> the first to use marbled papers in books, and examples of
> their work are found on the borders of some of their 16th
> century manuscripts." while you conclude that "If this is
> true, it would at least indicate that marbling was possibly
> introduced to Persia by the Turks, rather than the other
> way around." ???
Well, you could also ask "how come there is Japanese
examples of marbling as early as 800 A.D. but they
never used it in books?" and I couln't answer that
either...
I don't know what else could be done with marbled
paper (maybe hang on walls...?) but if I had to bet
a dollar, I would bet that anything related to
"paper" most probably went to Persia and further
west from China or that area...
> Thirdly, howcome when Turks introduced their food such as
> "sarma, dolma, doner, sish kebab, etc (stuffed grape leaves,
> stuffed pepper, sish kebab, doner, etc; as sarmades, dolmades
> etc in Greek) to other cultures with their Turkish names; but,
> when they wanted to introduce marbeling to Persian culture
> with a Persian name "ebru" ???
>
> Your explanation just does not make sense.
My purpose for joining this thread was to argue
that one cannot deduct that the art of marbling
paper (at least from a Turk's view) must have
Persian origins merely based on the word "ebru".
So, my intention was rather to explore the subject
beyond hasty remarks and we all seem to have made
some progress since then...
There are even arguments over who invented radio,
tv, computer, etc. just decades ago... I recognise
the impossibility of determining who invented such
things as marbling paper hundreds of years ago...
It may even be that it originated in several places
in different forms and converged into what it became
later. So, my goal is not to offer an explanation or
prove that it is from Turkish, Chinese, Japanese, etc.
origin but to refute your hasty guess that "ebru was
probably from Persian origin"...
To give some possible answers to your last questions,
even if Turks introduced marbling to Persia, it does
not necessitate that they named it themselves... If
a Persian asked another Persian "what is this Turk
doing there?" and got the answer "he is doing some
painting like clouds (ebr-u?)", there you have it
named... Who knows...? It could have been named
differently first but that might have changed to
"ebru" later... Or, "ebru" may have emerged after
many years as the one that survived among 5 other
names for the same art... Interaction between people
and languages is just too complex to arrive at simple
conclusions based on a certain word... If anybody
discovers anything more definite on the subject, I
sure would like to know...
MK
Hakki Kocabas
> )If this is true, it would at least indicate that
> )marbling was possibly introduced to Persia by the
> )Turks, rather than the other way around. (Turkish
> )influence reached Persia way before 16th century).
> )
> )MK
>
>
> Whoever says "Little is known of the origin of marbling, but there
> seems "to be little doubt that it was introduced into Western
> Europe from the East." obviously did not look it up in the
> Encyclopedia Britanica:
Isn't it promising?! Even Enis can learn netiquette:-)
|-| /-\ |-< |-< |||
Jemil333
is the nationlity of an art really important? I have been researching
the early history of Abri/Ebru/marbled paper for several years now-
including visits to Istanbul. Here in the US, I have been able to
identify many very early and interesting pieces that were previously
uknown. I would like to correspond with others interested in this. Jake
benson (Jemil) Jemi...@aol.com