NEW!! Thai Christian Message Board
at Thai Christian Homepage
http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Towers/7680
or
http://www.thaichristian.com/hatyai

There aren't enough Christians in all of Thailand to warrent a web site
such as this. Your true goal is to proselytize Thais into your
particular set of cult beliefs. Buddism is far superior to your religion
in every way so give your colonialist ways a rest, why don't you. I've
seen your fine new church buildings in the midsts of hilltribe hovels
and I've heard of the lies and bribes you offer to win them over. You
bastard missionary make me sick. Go home, nobody wants you in S.E.Asia.
Fucked regards, D.B.

Good to see how a farrang is so enlightened on the Budist ways.  Looking at
your post and all the anger and predjudice it envokes,  it is hard to see any
friuts of your beliefs, including tolerance, humility, etc.  What are you doing
in the hilltribes, enlighting them on your western cultural  ways or living the
lie of pretending to be of free and independent of materialist ways while you
receive your check from home.  Or maybe there to trek and share your aquired
knowledge on drug use?  Or is it to help build lodging, educate and provide
food, clothing and medical care?  Your right, no Budist temple is ever so
lavish as those "bastard" Christian churches,  Gold buddas, gold leaf as thick
as mud, begging for food from those who at times can barely feed themselves!
No those temples are the model of meager living.
Funny hearing a farrang telling others to go home and how they are not wanted,
very funny indeed! :)  Your frequent use of the "f" word speaks volumes of your
low mental and spirtual state.  May God bless you in your search for pease with
yourself.  

Your right, no Budist temple is ever so

  If you really care to defend Christian Churches or for that matter any
other churches, it would not do to blast another religion. Yours is bad than
mine is not a good way to foster your argument. Why not accentuate the
positive aspect of the Christian churches that help educate the poor, provide
education, sanitation etc. Thais are not averse to any religion. Why not
emulate Dr Bradley who did a world of good for Thailand's education and
hygiene during King Rama V reign? Don't continue the flame war, please.

                 wasant

-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp   Create Your Own Free Member Forum

Hi DB,

I would have put it in more civilised words but in content I agree... This
reminds me of a great post on the SEALANG mailing list from Matthew McDaniel
of the Akha Heritage Foundation. I am sure he will not mind me reposting it in
this context.

=== BEGIN CITATION ===

Black Friday in an Akha Village

DRAFT DECLARATION ON THE RIGHTS OF
INDIGENOUS PEOPLES

ARTICLE 12

"Indigenous peoples have the right to practice and
revitalize their cultural traditions and customs. This
includes the right to maintain, protect and develop the
past, present and future manifestations of their cultures,
such as archaeological and historical sites, artefacts,
designs, ceremonies, technologies and visual and
performing arts and literature, as well as the right to the
restitution of cultural, intellectual, religious and spiritual
property taken without their free and informed consent or
in violation of their laws, traditions and customs."

***

I and a friend fought our way up mud track roads after a
four hour trip to reach one of Northern Thailand's most
remote Akha villages, Hur Mae Khom.

We had a gift of writing books and pencils for the last
traditional families in the village. Two weeks before the
headman told me that the Chinese Baptists had come and
convinced three quarters of the village to become
Christian. From personally checking with the families
they had told me that it was required that they abandon
all of their traditions in the process. Finished.

So when I climbed the ladder to the headman's porch and
sat down I was greatly concerned as he sadly poured me
tea. I and my friend drank while he related the events of
the last two weeks.

There had been five or six families that stuck with him.
There was one village elder living up the hill that was
helping to hold it all together. The headman had not
invited the missionaries and did not approve of their
demands. But then some time in the last week they had
convinced the elder to join their forces below and
abandon the headman. So he moved down to those huts.
The other families soon followed along. What could he
do, with the last elder gone from the tradition there was
no one left to teach the old ways to the families. He was
more than just a little sad, saddest that I had ever seen
him. Though the huts had not moved he was now a
headman without a village and the new puppet pastor the
new functional headman. He knew that the missionaries
always promised to give lots to the people if they
converted. Meanwhile the villagers were still asking for
medicine that the missionaries apparently weren't
including in the deal.

I went down into the other huts and was immediately
struck by all the changes being imposed on the people.
Numerous women were no longer wearing their
headresses as they had been so proudly doing all the
years that I had supplied medicine to this village. I asked
them why and they said they couldn't any more. Some of
the older women still hung on. But the pressure was now
definitely there to abandon them. There would be no
traditional practices, songs, or dances at all now, possibly
something would be allowed at Christmas. The woman
who practices the traditional knowledge and medicine for
the village was stopped. She was told that it was evil and
that she could no longer treat people's illnesses.

In the name of their religious beliefs, and quite in
contradition with the spirit of those beliefs, the
missionaries are eradicating Akha culture in village after
village. The Akha, with probably 98% written illiteracy,
their books the elders, have no way or perspective by
which to judge this method that comes with all the
promises of prosperity. Prosperity that seldom
materializes. From a standpoint of incredible rapid
economic change and severe poverty they are being
robbed of their rich heritage. Children are taught that
their parents are living under the power of darkness and
bondage, teaching disrespect to parents in direct
contradiction of the missionaries' own religious texts.

Such practices could not be gotten away with without
much criticism in the west, but people who enjoy the
freedoms of their individual traditions and beliefs in the
west do not believe in offering those same freedoms to
others if they can exploit them for the agendas of their
mission agencies.

We believe this has everything to do with endangered
language. If you ban the culture, what exactly is the
language then good for? A religious ban imposed on
culture is just as powerful as a governmental ban on
culture if not more so.

We find these repeated actions to eradicate Akha culture
from among the Akha people as going against standards
set forth in the UN Draft of Human Rights for
Indigenous Peoples.

Anyone who would like an entire copy of the UN Draft
on Indigenous Rights please send me an email.

There is a whole lot going wrong here.

Matthew McDaniel The Akha Heritage Foundation

=== END OF CITATION ===

Food for thought...

Kind regards,
Joris

--
Joris Goetschalckx
http://users.skynet.be/sky98829

Dear Lom ron ...er Lom yen,
I have visited many hilltribes (no, I don't smoke weed or
opium) and althrough my knowledge on christianising this
people is far from complete I must say:

- as far as I can see
  It was mostly the villagers who build lodging for the
  missionaries (hilltribes are very capable of building their own
  homes and have done so for far longer than Christianity exists)

- education done by missionaries is a bit reading and writing
  (so this "poor heathens" will be able to read the bible)

- Provide food? Don't make me laugh - what do you think the
  Hmong, Shan, Liu and others put in the line under "profession"?
  It's FARMER you twit!!!

- Tell me how the selfwoven costumes (I hope still) worn by many
  hilltribes are provided by missionaries?

- And lastly: Distributing a few coughdrops and aspirins is not
  providing medical care!

Yes, D. B.  uses a bit strong language but he's rite!
It speaks only of ignorance and total disregard for a culture, total
lack of respect from this religious fanatics that come to Thailand
and try to plant their ideas into s.e. Asia's most disadvantaged people!
Rumpel

I can only give a personal experience. In 1974 I rented a house in Chiang
Rai. A neighbor of us had a broken apendice and was just about ready to
die.Well I said, no problems, I brought him to a mission where they had two
doctors. The first thing say said, even before examination, "does he have
any money to pay". I finished bundling him into an aircraft and flew him to
Bangkok where he was attended. So much for christian charity.

Something totally unrelated:
I'm thinking of changing my itinerary from lazing on the beach in Hua Hin
to something more active and challenging like elkhunting in the mountains.
Where/how much is a fine hunting rifle in BKK? Anyone interested in joining
the party? Who knows knowledgeable hilltribe hunting guides?

Hi Joris,
the report of Matt is appalling and far more serious of what I experienced first
hand while visiting hilltribes.

|I would have put it in more civilised words but in content I agree... This
|reminds me of a great post on the SEALANG mailing list from Matthew
McDaniel
|of the Akha Heritage Foundation. I am sure he will not mind me reposting it
in
|this context.
|Food for thought...
|
|Kind regards,
|Joris

Let me start by saying I don't agree with the supposed actions of the
"Chinese Baptists."

I visited the Akha Heritage Foundation several years ago and was surprised
by the vehemence against "Christian" missionaries.  They seem to forget that
without these missionaries they wouldn't be aware of the locations of most
of the hilltribe villages in Thailand.  I was also surprised by the lengths
they would go to "protect" Akha culture.  It seemed that nothing should be
interfered with.  If a person was starving you shouldn't feed them.  If
parents wanted to sell their daughter into prostitution in Bangkok, oh well,
part of the culture.  A modern tool of any type was considered sacrilege.
The entire Akha tribe seemed to be their private ant collection.  Even so,
they were strangely silent about Buddhist "missionaries" who were beginning
to teach their religion to the hilltribes.

Unfortunately, many people mistake Christianity for western culture.  (Just
as many people in the west mistake Buddhism for eastern culture.)  Thinking
that one needs to dress differently just because they have changed
religions.  A religion is a personal experience.  Happily it is one that can
be shared.  Sadly many try to force both religion and culture instead of
sharing it.

Finally, many Christian missionaries are doing some wonderful work among the
hilltribes of Thailand.  I know of a couple that would convince parents to
send their daughters to live in their "girls home" instead of selling them
into prostitution.  They would teach them crafts, and skills that would make
them useful to their parents instead of a burden.  At the same time they
would share their relationship with Jesus Christ with the girls.  No
pressure, just love.

Just showing the other side of the coin.

Phil the Egg

On Sat, 11 Jul 1998 05:49:10 GMT, Rumpelstilz <b...@bellsouth.net>
wrote:

        Nah, I've met Matthew.  Very fair minded and balanced
opinions.

Not bad Phil,
Wasant , I agree about Dr.Bradely and I was not trying to flame or support any
religion.  All are made up of people and will refleck those humans worst and
best in the presentation.  I have seen first hand the results of "christians"
rape of island cultures and the beauty of others work representing the same
God.
And Rump...... er..  Rumpel, I wasn't stating  what these churches do or don't
do but rather that what did he do to help or preserve these peoples or their
culture.  
"all you fucking people go home"
If you don't feel as he does "get the "F" out of here".  Glad he's not my
neighbor!  That's not budism tolorance is it? He seems to be letting his neg.
experiences, predjudises and anger cloud his reasoning.  Relax guys, lose the
anger and discuss.  I am not conviced about the works of churches in mission
fields either!
But I do support any Thai... read!..........Thai christian that chooses to
share their belief.
What ya think?        

DBCoopr in Message-id: <8271-35A6463...@newsd-124.bryant.webtv.net>

The per centage numbers in Thailand may be small, but the per centage numbers
in the US are quite large as many Thais are either happy to drop their Buddhist
beliefs upon arrival or are easily persuaded by the hard prosetylizing efforts
of the Christian Thais in the US (e.g. the Hope of Bangkok Church).

As for the Christian missionaries in the hills, it is a complicated scenario.
There are alot of really bad ones, especially the younger American ones, a a
few very good ones, mostly older Catholic guys who have been around along time
and have a certain respect for local conditions.  It was not the missionaries
that have destroyed traditional Akha culture, but the constant wars in Burma
and the outcast nature of their existence in Thailand.  The Karen willingly
accepted Christianity in mass during the previous century believing the lies
that the Brtits told them about supporting them.  Of course today Burmese
students can get refugee status but not Karen since most major governments
still refuse to recognize indigenous minorities anywhere.

Many hill people have converted.  There are good and bad Christian missionaries
in the hills.  The root causes for the people to abandon their indigenous faith
are complex.  The missionaries take advantage of these factors to fulfill their
own personal needs and insecurities.  Sometimes they actually care about the
other people as opposed to simply counting the number of "souls" they imagine
they are saving.  Unfortunately, all too often, these people have no clue about
Christian charity nor understanding of "grace".  And the Thai Christians in the
US rarely have any understanding of their religion at all apart from their
ability to tell others that they "amen".

Happy Trails

Johpa

|I visited the Akha Heritage Foundation several years ago

Sorry, going back through my notes I noticed it was not the Akha Heritage
Foundation I visited.  It was the Hilltribes Research Institute (I'm not
sure of its exact name) on the campus of Chiang Mai University.  My
apologies to the Akha Heritage Foundation.  However, my post still stands.
Both good and bad things are happening to the hilltribes. But they are
people, free to make their choice.

Phil the Egg

It's not "supposed actions" - we got witnesses!  Hard facts buddy!

Ever had jesus-nuts sundaymornin 8am on your door?  THEY DON'T TAKE NO FOR AN
ANSWER!!!  Vehemence is a necessity against all x-tian peddling!

Why do we have to know all locations? They lived in peace for millenniums
before outside interference put them on a downhill spiral!

They wouldn't starve if the government in BKK (the one that issues missionary
visas) would recognize their right to live and their right to be cultural
different from mainstream thai

That's low and uncalled for Philip, you are slandering Akha culture
and I hope you apologize for it!

Sadly Akha will not escape "modern times" forever,
but there is light at the end of the tunnel - Bangkok finely
(to late to little)?  Starts recognising the differing and value
of their brothers in the hills.  Central government departs from
thinking that all hilltribes have only one wish - to melt into
mainstream Thai culture and living.
(I don't have much up to date info on this matter and would
appreciate if a SCT-reader could fill me in)
- Just an idea of mine: Could it be that the central government
used the missionaries to destroy the hilltribe culture so they
would be easier assimilated into mainstream?

I believe you mistake Thai government interference as "Buddhist missionaries"
Buddhists don't push their believes on other people!  They (Thai Buddhist monastery's)
do some charity, they have religious schools and yes - many rural Thais give better food
as alms to the temple then they eat themselves...
Sadly, every institutionalization of a philosophy gets corrupted.
And anyway: I would take Buddhism over christianity any time !!!

Again - it is christian fanatics who are so ignorant and blind that they need
to see the whole world to be just like them and can't tolerate anything
different.
When you deny that missionary's go to Thailand and take advantage of
disenfranchised and mostly illiterate people you commit the sin of lying
big time buddy!

Please bring evidence!  Videofootage of "before" and "after," dated, with
signed Affidavits!

...They would persuade parents to give them custody of their daughters
(what about their sons) and under the cover of "teaching them crafts"
slowly and stickum would inject them with x-tianity
to alienate them from their real, good and valid heritage.

Think again Phil - better: THINK!!!

what I meant: I knew this jesus-freaks are bad and I've seen some
up in the hills - I just didn't know they're that bad.
Rumpel

You falsely make it look like I used the "F" word - please don't put something
in my mouth Lom yen  `k?

Rumpel

Hey Lom, Ive got news for you. I AM your neighbor. Get out of town you
nucklehead!              Oh, and next time you quote someone at least
make an attempt to be accurate. Christians aren't bastards, Christian
missionaries are bastards. With the exception of the Catholic orgs who
are more civilized in their methods, most of the others are there only
to "collect heads"ie. each soul "saved" is another feather in their
caps. If I were to draw you a map showing the location of all the
churches encircling Chiang Mai's mote area, you would think you were
looking at an armed camp. Even the bloody Jehovas Witnesses are there!
And dont they have a far superior philosophy to offer over that embodied
in Buddism? Ha! Common sense dictates that asian governments ban the
activities of these fools. Many countries already have laws against
proselytizing (India, Pak. Nepal) but they are seldom enforced. I say if
they do the crime make them do the time. The time is long past due when
Thailand enacts such a law. Then, if I may be allowed to indulge a
choice fantasy for a moment, Pat Robertson could be lured in to do his
thing, at which time he would have the iron bracelets slapped on his
wrists and be thrown into a Thai slammer. ROLF!!!

Humm...D.B Cooper's parachute must have failed to open, resulting in a
collision with the ground that caused severe brain damage and mental
disorder.  Far from what has been said by some in this thread, the original
poster merely ANNOUNCED the existence of a website;  did not encourage,
order, or knock on someone's door at 8 a.m. on a Sunday morning.

The post was entirely "on-topic" for this ng--something often lacking   In
fact, I've book-marked it (along with many other Thai websites).

Sorry to disappoint you Mr. Neill, but my parachute deployed flawlessly.
Come Monday morning I will once again be chuckling merrily on my way to
the bank to count my money. You say you bookmarked that website? When
did your parachute fail to open? A brain is a terrible thing to waste!
Be more careful next time, will you please. Hint: Try landing on your
head instead of posterior next time. In your case it will no doubt
result in less brain damage. Best wishes, D.B. Cooper

You're certainly right to have and express your opinion--just as it was the
poster's right to post an advisement.

I am not sure who you mean by "we regulars".   It could be two or three
people or one person using several names/servers.   I've been visiting here
for quite some time, and this is the first posting that I can recall bashing
another person's religion.

BTW, the actions of a few do not necessarily reflect upon the attitudes of
millions world-wide.  There are probably 100's of so-called "Christian"
minisitries, just as there are more than a few "buddist" off-shoots.

Tom Neill said, " this is the first posting I can recall bashing another
persons religion."             What makes you think the Christians would
bother with our funky little ng? They have am, fm, shortwave, television
and even global satelite access by which to spread their vitriol toward
the other religions. Indeed they have the time, money and inclination to
do just that, as even the most casual observer has no doubt observed on
countless occasions. I'm simpy striving in my own small way for balance;
equal time if you will! As the good book says: "Bash unto others as they
bash unto you." Or as the locals say, "What comes around goes around."
Sincerely, your brother in Christ, Budda, Allah, Shiva and Zoroaster.

Rinpoche, what is your problem with Rumple giving voice to his
reservations concerning well money'd western crusaders decending on Asia
to convert the heathens at all costs? Don't you know these
fundamentalist/evengelical preachers and their "world outreach"
organizations portray Buddism as a demon worshiping cult? Their stated
goal is nothing less than the total extinction of all other faiths and
the subplantation of their own brand of christianity. Before you laugh
take a look at the size and scope of their operations and the amount of
damage already done. Mark my words well, it is dangerous to
underestimate these zealots.

Now this is a very interesting idea! But would the Thai authorities really be
so Machiavellian? That would be sick...

In my country when you really hate somebody you wish him cholera, tuberculosis
or another very disgusting illness. Viewed in this light, I admit that it does
make sense to allow christian missionaries to be sent to a people on which you
want to inflict a deadly scourge :-(

Kind regards,
Joris

--
Joris Goetschalckx
http://users.skynet.be/sky98829

Right. Helping people only if they first espouse your silly religion and
associated values is not something to be proud of.

I don't like that either, but I have to admit that it is a logical consequence
of the very nature of their religion. Christianity, like all other
monotheistic religions, lays a claim on *the truth*, embodied in the one and
only god and its associated dogma. Now if you really believe that your god is
the only real one, then it is only logical that any other religion's god is an
impostor and hence the preaching of its dogma not to be allowed. An example of
limited and simplistic thinking, sure, but hey, we are talking *religion*,
aren't we?

Kind regards,
Joris

--
Joris Goetschalckx
http://users.skynet.be/sky98829