Nightmare in Bangkok
Willow
WuthiphunS
I've already read "The Posion River" by Steve Raymond
and realize the corruptions and the injustices of the system. If you noticed,
it's his government, the US.Embassy themselves,
who forced the Thai police to made the arrest. There're the accusation of
child abuse and he's gay(the embassy's discrimination). Also, the "Midnight
Express", if the American convict didn't smuggle the drugs, he must havent'
been in that inhumane prison.
If you're a clean person and avoide the troubles(drugs, alcohols,
prostitues, scams, mafia, etc), no matter where you are, you'll be safe. If
you aren't, everywhere'll be dangerous for you.
You didn't give the details of your crime. It'd be clearer to
understand your expereince. Pity on your misfortune.
WS.
>From: "Willow" <@silk.net>
>Date: Fri, Dec 26, 1997 21:08 EST
>Message-id: <34a46...@news.westel.com>
>
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>
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>I am now safely back in in my homeland after spending over two years in =
>Thailand, unable to leave due to the actions of the corrupt police =
>department (albeit, acting on unfounded allegation of an American =
>company). I have endured several months in a Thai jail prior to being =
>released on bail; thereafter I was subjected to the wonders of the Thai =
>justice system and trials that take years, not months. I know from =
>personal experience the delights of the Special Prison in Bangkok, the =
>wonderful prison hospital, and the marvels of the Immigration Detention =
>Center.
>I am lucky.
>I met many who were not. Most of those are still there.
>I did not intend to stay in Thailand. Such was forced upon me. Two =
>years in any country will create good as well as bad memories. It is a =
>wonderful country in many ways - unique in so many others. If it were =
>not perilous, I would love to return, even now. But that would be =
>crazy...
>The perils of the Thai justice system are not something that anyone =
>should be subjected to...
>In Thailand, you can be held for 92 days on nothing but suspicion. The =
>first seven days is in a local police station, with almost enough room =
>to lie on the concrete floor. The remainder of that time is spent in =
>the normal prison. Every 12 days you are shackled (using a feudal =
>device) and driven by crowded bus to the court, for a "rubber stamp" =
>process. =20
>Of course you can see your lawyer - shouting through a wire screen with =
>hundreds of others. Of course there is medical treatment - as long as =
>you can pay the premium and buy food for yourself before you die of =
>malnutrition. In the prison hospital, a fully equipped ICU was left =
>empty as many died 50 metres away from lack of care - the ICU being for =
>international display purposes. One Australian escaped. The warden put =
>all those who were escape risks in chains, 24 hours of the day. =
>Surprise! All were farongs!!=20
>I recently watched "Midnight Express", the movie about the Turkish =
>prison system. If I had a choice, I would take Turkey over Thailand. =
>The accommodation seemed much better. =20
>For those that are not in Thailand, you can read a book by Steve =
>Raymond, an American, called "The Poison River" about his experience in =
>Thai prisons. If you wish, you can visit certain Web sites for the =
>stories of others who have endured the nightmare of police injustice in =
>Thailand. =20
>Watch a police station in Thailand on Friday, as they go out two by two =
>to collect the weekly bribes from local businesses. In my case, for 4 =
>Million Baht (when it had some value) I would have been released on the =
>day I was arrested - the police colonel made no secret of this magic =
>brand of justice. I have read "Corruption in Thailand" by two =
>university professors there - and followed events later as one in the =
>press told of police corruption regarding Bangkok's casinos. The police =
>tried to arrest him for criminal libel.
>In Thailand, as the police are appointed by royal warrant, they gain =
>respect. Unfortunately, few deserve it. Are Thai police corrupt? One =
>local newspaper found one honest policeman - and that rated a major =
>story. Thai police are underpaid - of that there is no doubt. Just how =
>do all the captains and above drive Mercedes (I do so hope these fellows =
>lose in the meltdown)?? On a police salary? Ha!!!
>Nothing is as funny as the stories of the police in the Bangkok "Nation" =
>or "Post". Black humour funny, that is. A policeman shots a waiter and =
>restaurant owner after (horror) being given a bill. No charge. Another =
>shots a witness on the court house steps. No charge. One report said =
>there were 3,500 gunmen in Bangkok not including the police! Few of =
>these stories make the Internet edition.
>Just as another example, I was charged for a crime committed over one =
>month before I even arrived in Thailand - the police did not even bother =
>to check the Thai computer immigration records. The Royal Thai police =
>never bothered to interview or question the supposed victims (they would =
>write asking for my release).
>Then you get into a Thai trial that will last for years, without the =
>ability to legally work in the country. And they wonder why people =
>leave...
>Sorry, but there are lots of pretty beaches in the world. There are =
>lots of interesting places with nice architecture and people. As long =
>as the Thai justice system remains as it is, I for one will do all I can =
>to advise people not to visit Thailand - it can be too dangerous.=20
>
>A Reluctant Guest=20
>
>
Willow
Dear Khun Wuthiphun,
I have to correct you. You wrote:
>> If you're a clean person and avoid the troubles(drugs, alcohols,
prostitues, scams, mafia, etc), no matter where you are, you'll be safe.
If you aren't, everywhere'll be dangerous for you.
I went to Thailand on four days notice. It was a business trip - a loan to
two Americans resident in Thailand. Nothing illegal - at least from my
point of view (I am a retired lawyer, by the way).
There were no drugs, no alcohol, nor prostitution). It turned out that the
Americans had forged documents.
By any legal standards, I was a witness. Instead, the Thai police arrested
me along with the Americans. In fact, I was charged with a crime (forgery)
that they alleged happened between September 28th, 1994 to January 11th,
1995. I did not even obtain my new passport until February 14th, 1995 and
left for Thailand (for the first time) on February 24th, 1995. To the Thai
police, that made no difference. They did no investigation prior to the
arrest - they simply relied upon what someone else said. They did not even
interview the alleged victim. Instead they simply threw me into a inhumane
prison where I almost died. I was repeatedly raped and abused by the
prison guards, for over a month.
After, when I was finally released on bail, I was trapped in Thailand and
unable to leave. But I could not work - I had not intended to stay and
entered on a normal visa.
Oh yes, we hired private investigators and they located the real forgers in
Manila. We had the National Philippine Police proceed with a search warrant
and they located all the necessary evidence and obtained a confession. Did
that make any difference in Thailand - of course not!
The length of my forced stay meant I was subject to further arrest, for
having overstayed
my visa. I had to go through a ridiculous procedure at the Immigration
Detention Centre after increasing the bail to leave the country after
almost two years (and after some pressure from Canadian authorities). I
was, in
fact, formally deported as the IDC had a new commander who would not follow
what all others said to do - being new, he had to demonstrate his authority
that day. Of course, I was to return.
Return? To a trial that would last five years, where a not guilty verdict
means the prosecutor can appeal and start again - twice. Where I do not
speak the language and cannot understand - and no interpreter is provided.
Call it what you will, I call it a kangaroo court.
The inhumanity of the Thai system is unbelievable. I have no criminal
record, had an unblemished career in Canada as a lawyer prior to retiring,
and was a witness, not a criminal. Even the supposed victims wrote to the
Thai court asking for my release - but the Thai prosecutor would "lose
ace" by dropping the charge. Oh yes, like the "Sherry Duncan" murder, the
old
order of the Deputy Minister of the Interior dating from 1954 was cited as
the reason. Wonderful!
Technically, I am now an escaped person under Thai law. I did ask for a
visa to return and fight, but needed one that enabled me to work for the
trial period - five years. The This government could not issue anything
even close - it suggested simply returning and taking my chance. Would you?
For five years in a strange country? Sorry, I like living.
This episode has ruined my life - I am still attempting to recover from the
rapes and abuse. Naturally, my feelings towards Thailand are rather
dark.
I have traveled on business and pleasure throughout the world. But this!!
Absolutely unbelievable. I gave the police a statement and they did
nothing - not even to check the computer records of arrivals into Thailand.
Some police - too busy checking out the amount of bribes they can get. As
mentioned, they would have let me go the first night for a mere 4 Million
Baht - and that was the head of the department.
I was lucky. I got out. And I was able, with the help of friends in
Canada, to leave. I saw and met others who were not so fortunate. As a
means of survival, I interviewed women caught up in the Thai system. Yes,
most of these were for drug offences, but they really had not idea of what
hey were into. They are effectively dead - for death is better than
living in a Thai prison.
Regards,
Willow
SteveD
Dear "Willow",
I also have some sorry experience with Thai prisons. Many years ago I was
arrested in Bangkok on drug charges and jailed. At first in the IDC for seven
days (just as you were) and then in a prison called "Bampudpaisad," which I was
told meant "Drug Rehabilitation Center." In fact it was a drug redistribution
center where the warden and guards enriched themselves, and such was the bitter
joke among the farangs there.
Where was this "Special Prison" you mentioned? Do you have a name and address?
Some of what happened to you seems incredible to me. For example, your tale of
rape has no relation to anything I experienced or heard then. I'm not calling
you a liar, just being honest.
But your other details ring true: the arresting police offering to make a deal;
the disregard for prisoners' health and rights; the terrible food unless you
could afford better; the rubber-stamp nature of the judicial proceedings (no
interpreters); and the cynical connivance of the American embassy.
I got out because the charges were fairly minor and I employed what in Thailand
is the perfect lawyer: the wife of a Bangkok Metropolitan Police colonel.
Financial arrangements were quickly concluded to everybody's satisfaction and
the colonel received his payment from me back at the IDC, in a suspiciously
empty room. I had plenty of time to admire photographs of the colonel's house,
Mercedes, and well dressed children that he kept under the glass desktop.
I don't agree with your statement that death is preferable to living in a Thai
prison. The movie "Midnight Express" was a joke because Hollywood twisted a
very important book into 'drama'. (For example, the author never was raped and
never killed the warden.) But the book made it pretty clear to me that a
Turkish jail was worse than a Thai jail. To my knowledge no Thais, let alone
farangs, were molested or treated badly unless they broke some diehard rule.
I met some honorable and likable men while in prison, although almost all were
guilty of something. To be fair, farangs were actually treated better than
Thais. We got to bathe whenever we liked and had access to a modest little
commissary, plus our cellblock was less crowded than the Thais'. Still, that
moment the guard called out my name was perhaps the greatest of my life.
Despite my experience, I continue to love Thailand and its people and travel
there whenever I have a chance. Some day I may retire there.
-steve
Willow
Thank you for your reply.
The abuse took place in the hospital - a large compound with many little
locked rooms. It was a very big area and, except for the mornings, devoid
of any medical staff, just the guards. There are many reasons why things
happened, I suppose. That availability of locked rooms, the small numbers
and other factors. Wrong place, wrong time...
I did not have to stay at the IDC. I got to go for several days and wait,
next to the cell doors but not inside - a strange experience. But by that
time the embassy was being helpful.
I started with the South Sathorn Station - a delightful place if one is into
grime. We were packed so tight you could not lie down.
The main prison in Bangkok is up next to Don Muang airport. The special
prison where Raymond was held was near Chinatown, but that was closed and
the prisoners moved to the airport location. It featured rooms with 60 to
80+ inmates and not much else. You did get out for 10 hours of the day -
out to a very small compound. The prison hospital was a separate large
area, with six "ward" buildings, some other small structures, a playing
field, gardens and the medical/administration area.
Within the prison, guards had total control. The Thai prisoners there were
either too sick to move, or were in some privilege position that enabled
them to stay there, with beds and such, instead of the Special Prison or the
main prison. Falongs were very rare - and isolated. I was the one of three
in my building, for example. "Why" is a word with real meaning to me now, I
cannot really answer as to the experiences. Victims really don't have much
choice in the matter, and after it starts, the momentum continues.
I have not read "Midnight Express" but the depiction in the movie certainly
portrayed better conditions - a room with 80+ people, so crowded that there
was not room to move, is really bad for any period of time. And given my
other experiences, I would rate the Thai situation worse.
As to your preferred conditions, I did not see that. Not at all, where I
was. I shared what food I could with either a Chinese gang or the
orderlies. There was no special situation, none at all. No special place
for food or the like, no special shower arrangements. You were lucky...
Steve, I too would go back - if I could without risk. But I can't. It is
simply too dangerous...
Willow
shoennicke
Be careful,when you travel in Thailand!It is very dangerous.
Willow <@silk.net> schrieb im Beitrag <34a46...@news.westel.com>...
A Reluctant Guest
----------
Tchiowa
Don't do the crime if you can't do the time.
Willow
Tchiowa wrote in message <34AC86...@HoTMaiL.com>...
>Don't do the crime if you can't do the time.
Pretty hard to do in this instance - the "crime" was committed over a month
before I arrived in the country. I was simply in the wrong place at the
wrong time - a witness by anything normal. But "normal" is not a word one
uses with the Thai police...
ba...@anonymous.bkk
I find your story is unbelievable, slightly bearing in mind it might be
true.
Since you now are a fugitive anyway, can you tell us your criminal case
no.? I ask that question because if someone is interested in your case, he
can look further in details.
I think you should be able to answer the above question. You may be afraid
to be traced but I think that is not a secret any more because the story
you tell us here already reveal some information that can be used to trace
back, say, by the police. I just want you to substantiate your story.
If the evidence you already presented here, for example the date on your
passport, is a strong evidence to prove that you are innocent, I wonder
why you were put on trial. I wonder why the prosecutor pursued the case.
Who is your lawyer? Did your embassy people do anything to help you?
On Sat, 27 Dec 1997 00:36:45 -0800, "Willow" <@silk.net> wrote:
>Dear Khun Wuthiphun,
>
>I have to correct you. You wrote:
>
>>> If you're a clean person and avoid the troubles(drugs, alcohols,
>prostitues, scams, mafia, etc), no matter where you are, you'll be safe.
>If you aren't, everywhere'll be dangerous for you.
>
>living in a Thai prison.
>
>Regards,
>Willow
>
>
>
Willow
Dear Khun Wuthiphun,
Yes, it is unbelievable. But it happened.
My Canadian Passport was issued in Calgary, Alberta. Canada - February 14th,
1995.
I arrived in Thailand, February 25th, 1995. (Prior Passport out of date two
years earlier). I have it here, along with the letter which you will find
in the file from the Canadian embassy confirming the issue date, etc....
The crime or forgery was committed (according to the charge) between
September 28th, 1994 to
January 11th, 1995 and all the rest flows from that. Also in the file are
copies of the confessions from the forgers in Manila together with evidence
showing the forgeries may have existed as early as September 9, 1994 and
originated in Manila (Ferguson, Citibank Manila; Sept.8, 1994). Of course,
that is months before my arrival - I have never been to Manila.
The Case Number is Black 2870/2538 (Southern Bangkok Criminal Court). Feel
free to check it out. The IDC officer who looked at it just said, in
effect, "Thai police are so stupid; lucky you - leave and don't come back"
and I guess that sums it up.
I have no problem being a fugitive from Thailand. In fact, I would be
pleased if the Thai government wanted to try to get me back - then they
would have to explain their stupidity in a Canadian court - and reap the
publicity that would result. Grand! Makes me want them to try... I would
even give the Royal Thai Police my address.
It is good to be alive, rather than still going through a trial that was
meaningless and wasting five years or more in Thailand.
You wrote...
>I find your story is unbelievable, slightly bearing in mind it might be
>true.
Well, you have the file so go and check it out. Just how do you commit a
crime when you are not even in the country...
>Since you now are a fugitive anyway, can you tell us your criminal case
>no.? I ask that question because if someone is interested in your case, he
>can look further in details.
Go ahead... Information above...
>If the evidence you already presented here, for example the date on your
>passport, is a strong evidence to prove that you are innocent, I wonder
>why you were put on trial. I wonder why the prosecutor pursued the case.
In all probability, because the Thai police were paid. That is the most
reasonable assumption. The same goes for the prosecutor. They had my
passport and did not return it for over a year - of course, in all that time
they did not read it!!! As to the lawyer, look in the file or contact me
direct.
I may be reached at wil...@silk.net direct...
Regards,
Willow
John Sharman
> Dear Khun Wuthiphun,
>
> Yes, it is unbelievable. But it happened.
>
> My Canadian Passport was issued in Calgary, Alberta. Canada - February 14th,
> 1995.
> I arrived in Thailand, February 25th, 1995. (Prior Passport out of date two
> years earlier). I have it here, along with the letter which you will find
> in the file from the Canadian embassy confirming the issue date, etc....
>
> The crime or forgery was committed (according to the charge) between
> September 28th, 1994 to
> January 11th, 1995 and all the rest flows from that. Also in the file are
[..]
> Well, you have the file so go and check it out. Just how do you commit a
> crime when you are not even in the country...
This is perfectly possible. If I were in Thailand and telephoned a
confederate in UK and told him to perpetrate a forgery in the UK and he
did so, then I myself would be guilty of forgery in the UK and upon
arrival in that country would be liable to be arrested, tried, convicted
and punished for my crime.
--
Regards,
John Sharman
+====================================================================+
| John Sharman Internet: jay...@norvic.demon.co.uk |
| Tel/Fax: +44 (0)1603 452142 |
+====================================================================+
Willow
You wrote...
>This is perfectly possible. If I were in Thailand and telephoned a
>confederate in UK and told him to perpetrate a forgery in the UK and he
>did so, then I myself would be guilty of forgery in the UK and upon
>arrival in that country would be liable to be arrested, tried, convicted
>and punished for my crime.
Perhaps in theory. I had no contact with Thailand (telephone records, etc.)
prior to my arrival. Further you are talking of conspiracy which was not
the charge...
I was invited to leave for Thailand on business four days before my
departure. Prior to that p nada contact.
Nice theory, but the better one is a payment to the Thai Police...
Willow
John Sharman
> You wrote...
>
> >This is perfectly possible. If I were in Thailand and telephoned a
> >confederate in UK and told him to perpetrate a forgery in the UK and he
> >did so, then I myself would be guilty of forgery in the UK and upon
> >arrival in that country would be liable to be arrested, tried, convicted
> >and punished for my crime.
>
>
> Perhaps in theory. I had no contact with Thailand (telephone records, etc.)
> prior to my arrival. Further you are talking of conspiracy which was not
> the charge...
I was careful not to refer to your case specifically. You asked how it
was possible to commit a crime in a country without being in that country
at the time of the crime. I answered your question.
In a number of jurisdictions a person who aids, abets, counsels or
procures the commission of an offence is liable to be tried as a
principal offender. It is surprising that you, as a retired lawyer, do
not know that.
One point in connection with your particular case does puzzle me. If you
go to Thailand in connection with an intended loan, how can you have "no
contact with Thailand" prior to your arrival? Did the people you were
going to meet not know that you were coming?
Willow
Replying to your earlier letter on the Thai news group...
I was asked to go to Thailand on Feb. 20th, four days before we left. The
parties who asked me had been the brokers involved in the transaction. I
got up to flying speed on the trip over. The clients made the travel
arrangements, as is often the case.
With respect to aiding, etc. - that was not the charge. The Thai Code is
not like the English or Canadian Code - aiding and such would be specific
charges and done by referring to certain sections of the Thai Criminal Code.
It is, in fact, very short - less than 100 pages. Specifically, I was
charged with forgery, between certain dates (while I was in Canada) and in
Bangkok, Thailand - not as an accomplice, or in any other fashion. Not
every country follows English law.
In Canada, my practice was commercial, not criminal. One rarely crosses
over after a few years at the Bar.
You wrote...
>I was careful not to refer to your case specifically. You asked how it
>was possible to commit a crime in a country without being in that country
>at the time of the crime. I answered your question.
>In a number of jurisdictions a person who aids, abets, counsels or
>procures the commission of an offence is liable to be tried as a
>principal offender. It is surprising that you, as a retired lawyer, do
>not know that.
This is not the case in Thailand. It must be a specific charge. In a news
group, would it not confuse the issue to refer to English or Canadain legal
principles when discussing a Thai case, with Thai law. And why would I do
so? My knowledge of Canadian law is hardly relevant...
>One point in connection with your particular case does puzzle me. If you
>go to Thailand in connection with an intended loan, how can you have "no
>contact with Thailand" prior to your arrival? Did the people you were
>going to meet not know that you were coming?
Arragnements made by the brokers, as above. As a lawyer, you are often
called into commercial situations at the last minute, as was the case here
(in this case, I was a consultant, not a lawyer).
You seem to want to apply English legal maxims to a Thai situation governed
by Thai law. Take a look at the Thai Code in your library. There were many
times that I wished I was able to apply Canadian law, believe me!!! The
assumption of guilt is not nice!!!
Regards,
Willow
Willow
Did I sue the police? In Thailand!! I wanted to remain alive!! Even my
lawyers there would shake when I mentioned this...
BUT I did lay criminal charges (the Thai criminal equivalent of "false
arrest") against the bank that caused this, its' managing director, lawyer
and others. That is, of course, a different case number. I was advised not
to proceed against the police and the action against the bank was adjourned
sine die by my lawyers, and against my own wishes, in what they said was
best - to wait until the other case was almost done.
Again , wil...@silk.net for more details, in private. Have fun reading the
file - I hope you do...
Willow
ba...@anonymous.bkk
Please bear in mind that the story you have told us here so far does not
necessarily means you did not commit a crime. I will some day try to get a
copy of your case. I like this kind of story.
Did you embassy do anything about it at all?
If I were you, I would sue the police and the prosecutor. Did you? If
not, why?
On Thu, 8 Jan 1998 22:00:39 -0800, "Willow" <@silk.net> wrote:
>Dear Khun Wuthiphun,
>
>Yes, it is unbelievable. But it happened.
>
>My Canadian Passport was issued in Calgary, Alberta. Canada - February 14th,
>1995.
>I arrived in Thailand, February 25th, 1995. (Prior Passport out of date two
>years earlier). I have it here, along with the letter which you will find
>in the file from the Canadian embassy confirming the issue date, etc....
>
>The crime or forgery was committed (according to the charge) between
>September 28th, 1994 to
>January 11th, 1995 and all the rest flows from that. Also in the file are
>copies of the confessions from the forgers in Manila together with evidence
>showing the forgeries may have existed as early as September 9, 1994 and
>originated in Manila (Ferguson, Citibank Manila; Sept.8, 1994). Of course,
>that is months before my arrival - I have never been to Manila.
>
>The Case Number is Black 2870/2538 (Southern Bangkok Criminal Court). Feel
>free to check it out. The IDC officer who looked at it just said, in
>effect, "Thai police are so stupid; lucky you - leave and don't come back"
>and I guess that sums it up.
>
>I have no problem being a fugitive from Thailand. In fact, I would be
>pleased if the Thai government wanted to try to get me back - then they
>would have to explain their stupidity in a Canadian court - and reap the
>publicity that would result. Grand! Makes me want them to try... I would
>even give the Royal Thai Police my address.
>
>It is good to be alive, rather than still going through a trial that was
>meaningless and wasting five years or more in Thailand.
>
>You wrote...
>
>>I find your story is unbelievable, slightly bearing in mind it might be
>>true.
>
>Well, you have the file so go and check it out. Just how do you commit a
>crime when you are not even in the country...
>
>>Since you now are a fugitive anyway, can you tell us your criminal case
>>no.? I ask that question because if someone is interested in your case, he
>>can look further in details.
>
>Go ahead... Information above...
>
>>If the evidence you already presented here, for example the date on your
>>passport, is a strong evidence to prove that you are innocent, I wonder
>>why you were put on trial. I wonder why the prosecutor pursued the case.
>