Re: 豆腐渣校舍
Albert K. Fung
> 祖國網絡上其實不是只有憤青。（又或者，憤青不罵人賣國賊時，也會講些人話？）
> http://news.yam.com/bcc/china/200805/20080514361728.html
>
> 中國一些論壇網站上已經可以看到網友提出質疑「為什麼學校校舍那麼容易倒
> 塌？」「為什麼政府大樓蓋得那麼豪華堂皇？」，更有人直接批評，這些豆腐渣校
> 舍，都是官商勾結，偷工減料下的結果，最後卻由無辜孩童的鮮血來償還。
>
> 据媒體引述不願透露姓名的中國建築師爆料，他們根據災區倒塌校舍的現場照片，
> 懷疑有些學校建築根本連鋼筋都省了，遇到強震毫無抗震力，馬上就變成千人塚。
>
> －－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－
>
> 好在上述的質疑是大陸網友說的。若是港政版各位提及的話，又要被人罵作漢奸了。
偷工減料 ....
Is certainly responsible for making the bad situation worse.
And, is emotionally satisfying to blame it all on heartless
builders. The larger issue, however, is the conscious trade-
off that is represented in the building code.
Even the TGD was designed to withstand a magnitude 7.0 quake.
That, is extremely risky in a region that is well known for
its geological instability. Chinese civil engineers are now
in a mad scramble, to repair damages to all the dams in that
entire region. Unfortunately, many are beyond repair, and,
have to be dynamited.
However, building it to tighter specifications (8.0 or more)
is very costly. The People's Republic of California, for ex-
ample, build their public structures to withstand earthquake
of magnitude 9.0, but at ginormous cost. Surely "luxury" that
Sichuan's rural poor cannot afford. They are lucky to have a
crude shelter. Forced by reality, most took a chance.
And paid dearly ....
Regards,
Albert K. Fung
Casa Tres Palmas, Santa Ynez, California, USA.
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large, one thing is clear: Schools and hospitals should be the
strongest buildings in the area. In Sichuan province, this was not the
case.
rst0wxyz
and Arnie is trying to get them repaired. If there is a major
eathquake in California, the conditions may not be much different than
today's conditions in China. A 9.0 earthquake will be the ruination
of California.
rst0wxyz
codes will reflect what they learn today.
rainbow...@gmail.com
> haha:
>
> > 祖國網絡上其實不是只有憤青。（又或者，憤青不罵人賣國賊時，也會講些人話？）
> >http://news.yam.com/bcc/china/200805/20080514361728.html
>
> > 中國一些論壇網站上已經可以看到網友提出質疑「為什麼學校校舍那麼容易倒
> > 塌？」「為什麼政府大樓蓋得那麼豪華堂皇？」，更有人直接批評，這些豆腐渣校
> > 舍，都是官商勾結，偷工減料下的結果，最後卻由無辜孩童的鮮血來償還。
>
> > 据媒體引述不願透露姓名的中國建築師爆料，他們根據災區倒塌校舍的現場照片，
> > 懷疑有些學校建築根本連鋼筋都省了，遇到強震毫無抗震力，馬上就變成千人塚。
>
> > －－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－
>
better buildings for them
Confucianism = 豆腐渣 Culture.
Albert K. Fung
> While one can argue the relative merits of safety versus cost in the
> large, one thing is clear: Schools and hospitals should be the
> strongest buildings in the area. In Sichuan province, this was not the
> case.
rst0wxyz:
> China will learn from the hard facts of life. Future construction
> codes will reflect what they learn today.
Magnitude 7+ quakes ....
Occurred with regularity in that region of China. Which is a
common knowledge among the local inhabitants. So it is rather
inconceivable that the building code does not already reflect
that knowledge.
Knowing is one thing. But affordability is quite another.
By code houses in the People's Republic of California must be
be built to withstand a magnitude 8.0 quake. A very important
reason why houses in California are the least affordable. It
is far from clear, that Sichuan would be able to upgrade its
building code.
Despite what it learned ....
Albert K. Fung
>
> Is certainly responsible for making the bad situation worse.
> And, is emotionally satisfying to blame it all on heartless
> builders. The larger issue, however, is the conscious trade-
> off that is represented in the building code.
>
> Even the TGD was designed to withstand a magnitude 7.0 quake.
>
> That, is extremely risky in a region that is well known for
> its geological instability. Chinese civil engineers are now
> in a mad scramble, to repair damages to all the dams in that
> entire region. Unfortunately, many are beyond repair, and,
> have to be dynamited.
>
> However, building it to tighter specifications (8.0 or more)
> is very costly. The People's Republic of California, for ex-
> ample, build their public structures to withstand earthquake
> of magnitude 9.0, but at ginormous cost. Surely "luxury" that
> Sichuan's rural poor cannot afford. They are lucky to have a
> crude shelter. Forced by reality, most took a chance.
>
> And paid dearly ....
demorising:
> While one can argue the relative merits of safety versus cost in the
> large, one thing is clear: Schools and hospitals should be the
> strongest buildings in the area. In Sichuan province, this was not the
> case.
Fraud aside ....
But if the schools that collapsed were, indeed, all code com
-pliant then the debate should, quite rightfully, be on the
values that are codified. Which, by necessity and by nature,
is a tenuous balance between safety on one hand, and afford-
ability on the other. Given a finite amount of money, which
would the society at large prefer: one school that can with-
stand a magnitude 9.0 quake?
Or two that collapse at 7.0 ....
jack
"Albert K. Fung" <akw...@hotmail.com> 撰寫於郵件新聞:g0p2oi$27ge$2...@adenine.netfront.net...
The magnitude of the earthquake is directly proportional to the magnitude of
corruption ?
rst0wxyz
Not too many, if any at all, building would be standing after a 9.0
earthquake even in the United States.
rst0wxyz
> demorising:
>
> > While one can argue the relative merits of safety versus cost in the
> > large, one thing is clear: Schools and hospitals should be the
> > strongest buildings in the area. In Sichuan province, this was not the
> > case.
>
> rst0wxyz:
>
> > China will learn from the hard facts of life. Future construction
> > codes will reflect what they learn today.
>
> Magnitude 7+ quakes ....
>
> Occurred with regularity in that region of China. Which is a
> common knowledge among the local inhabitants. So it is rather
> inconceivable that the building code does not already reflect
> that knowledge.
>
> Knowing is one thing. But affordability is quite another.
>
> By code houses in the People's Republic of California must be
> be built to withstand a magnitude 8.0 quake.
Albert, where did you get this 8.0 number? I have heard on TV news of
the 7.0 earthquake building code, but not 8.0 building code.
Jim Walsh
(in article
<5f48fec2-a0ce-4d86...@k10g2000prm.googlegroups.com>):
>
> China will learn from the hard facts of life. Future construction codes will
> reflect what they learn today
Why do you think that? Coal miners have been dying at the world's worst rate
for a decade without any improvement.
A government that does not have to earn re-election has only limited
motivation to reform.
--
Love, Jim
(I often delete parts of the previous post and I often remove excessive
crossposts.)
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rst0wxyz
> On Sat, 17 May 2008 00:30:08 +0800, rst0wxyz wrote
> (in article
>
>
>
> > China will learn from the hard facts of life. Future construction codes will
> > reflect what they learn today
>
> Why do you think that? Coal miners have been dying at the world's worst rate
> for a decade without any improvement.
>
> A government that does not have to earn re-election has only limited
> motivation to reform.
Let's say each new generation of leaders are more human than the last.
Albert K. Fung
>
> But if the schools that collapsed were, indeed, all code com
> -pliant then the debate should, quite rightfully, be on the
> values that are codified. Which, by necessity and by nature,
> is a tenuous balance between safety on one hand, and afford-
> ability on the other. Given a finite amount of money, which
> would the society at large prefer: one school that can with-
> stand a magnitude 9.0 quake?
>
> Or two that collapse at 7.0 ....
jack:
> The magnitude of the earthquake is directly proportional to the magnitude of
> corruption ?
Educating the rural poor ....
Now the CCP realizes, quite belatedly, involves serious sums
of money and not just talk. It can't be done on the cheap as
it, undoubtedly, thought before the catastrophe in SiChuan.
Is it possible to send Chinese to the moon, and, still have
safe schools and hospitals? Quite possibly.
But guns or books, it must prioritize ....
Albert K. Fung
> Albert, where did you get this 8.0 number? I have heard on TV news of
> the 7.0 earthquake building code, but not 8.0 building code.
By the state code ....
Houses should not be damaged in a minor earthquake up to 4.5
on the Richter scale (M4.5), structurally damaged by a moder
-ate quake up to M6.5 Richter. And, not collapse in a major
earthquake above M6.5 Richter.
"Above" is the crux of the problem. Sky can be the limit.
Depending on locality, most local building ordinances, would
deemed 8.0 to be reasonable. Most building inspectors in the
People's Republic of California would not sign the occupancy
permit unless the house would not collapse under an 8.0 one.
That means robust structural reinforcements ....
rst0wxyz
> rst0wxyz:
>
> > Albert, where did you get this 8.0 number? I have heard on TV news of
> > the 7.0 earthquake building code, but not 8.0 building code.
>
> By the state code ....
>
> Houses should not be damaged in a minor earthquake up to 4.5
> on the Richter scale (M4.5), structurally damaged by a moder
> -ate quake up to M6.5 Richter. And, not collapse in a major
> earthquake above M6.5 Richter.
>
> "Above" is the crux of the problem. Sky can be the limit.
>
> Depending on locality, most local building ordinances, would
> deemed 8.0 to be reasonable. Most building inspectors in the
> People's Republic of California would not sign the occupancy
> permit unless the house would not collapse under an 8.0 one.
>
> That means robust structural reinforcements ....
My statement still stands, everybody talks about 7. richter scale
building code while you alone talks about 8.0 building code. Most
experts would agree that no building can withstand a 9.0 earthquake.
Jim Walsh
(in article
<d37ab3f6-a6ab-49a3...@y18g2000pre.googlegroups.com>):
Well, I wish it were true.
But DXP for example, had no problem with FLG. His successor did.