Is Europe truly civilized?
ComandanteBanana
send button and...
On Oct 24, 10:56 am, Nick Keighley <nick_keighley_nos...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
> I don't think most bweatern countries are THE JUNGLE. I can walk down
> the street in safety (well so far!). People don't rob me (well except
> for that currency changer in Bucarest...)
>
> nick keighley
In the jungle where I just moved in (Miami) they stole a bike right
from under my window and see a lot of predators around, so I don't
know what can happen. But this is just a jungle, not the DEEP jungle.
Even Western Europe is not fully civilized. For one the rest of the
world remains a jungle and it will always spill over into more
civilized places. You solve UNEMPLOYMENT, say, in France and
immigrants will come from Africa. But NO, that's no excuse not to do
things locally. Actually we have to start with Africa.
Here's a big problem still present in Europe...
"That Europe's homelessness problem is roughly the same as America's —
and that one of the fastest-growing segments of Europe's homeless
population is families — is a shock. After all, Europe sees itself as
kinder, gentler and more socially responsible than the U.S., with an
extensive, expensive social safety net that's designed to nurture and
protect the most vulnerable sections of the populace — the kind of
people who are thrown to the wolves in winner-take-all America. But
that might just be the point: it's easier to be homeless in Europe,
where even the down-and-out get social-welfare checks."
http://www.time.com/time/europe/magazine/2003/0210/homeless/story.html
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Civilization is the Small Fish having respect and space, thus a
cyclist is the best symbol of it. Otherwise we have the Law of the
Jungle.
ComandanteBanana
wrote:
> On 24 Oct, 00:17, ComandanteBanana <nolionnoprob...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > I have searched for two definitions of CIVILIZATION... One seems a
> > little bit funny and sounds like the Law of the Jungle, and the other
> > sounds far more civilized...
>
> > Civilization is an outcome of strong culture and religion of the
> > society!!!
>
> > Strong cultural and religious growth play important role for a strong
> > society,
>
> I consider religious growth to be part of the problem
Yes, I do too. They help a little with the poor, but also use that
help to capture their mind.
And they are waiting for Jesus to come and fix things up. Just do
nothing. (coming soon)
>
> > gives strong identity to one society which initiates other
> > small societies to join or bigger population of same society who
> > follow their ideology.
>
> ideology is the root of all evil
Wow, I don't know how to contradict that. We may say HYPOCRISY AND
LIES are the root of all evil too.
>
> > Thus a large and strong and large society is
> > established. So Cultural and religious growth of the society in one
> > era is civilization.
>
> no
That sounds like PREACHING, right?
>
> > At present can say, going through western civilization which has
> > strongest culture (from intelligence to way of life) strongest
> > religion (Christianity).
>
> western people are more intelligent?
Yes sure, we got the money... so we must be "smarter." ;)
>
> <snip>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Civilization is social order promoting cultural creation. Four
> > elements constitute it: economic provision, political organization,
> > moral traditions and the pursuit of knowledge and the arts. It begins
> > where chaos and insecurity end. For when fear is overcome, curiosity
> > and constructiveness are free, and man passes by natural impulse
> > towards the understanding and embellishment of life.
>
> > Physical and biological conditions are only prerequisites to
> > civilization; they do not constitute or generate it. Subtle
> > psychological factors must enter into play. There must be political
> > order, even if it be so near to chaos as in Renaissance Florence or
> > Rome; men must feel, by and large, that they need not look for death
> > or taxes at every turn. There must be some unity of language to serve
> > as medium of mental exchange. Through church, or family, or school, or
> > otherwise, there must be a unifying moral code, some rules of the game
> > of life acknowledged even by those who violate them, and giving to
> > conduct some order and regularity, some direction and stimulus.
> > Perhaps there must also be some unity of basic belief, some faith --
> > supernatural or utopian --
>
> I disagree.
Maybe we have to have a meaning, but that meaning does NOT have to be
religion, nationalism, or democracy.
We are so proud of being a Christian American living in Democracy.
Maybe we can believe in TRUTH or something real, right?
>
> > that lifts morality from calculation to devotion,
>
> no. Civilisation ispossible without devotion or ideology. I regard
> myself as civilised and I'm not devoted to anything.
Well, I'm devoted to the TRUTH, and probably you are too. (Hunting the
LIE-ON or lion)
>
> > and gives life nobility and significance despite our mortal
> > brevity.
>
> no
I say, "Life's a beach!" Isn't that a slogan to live by?
>
> > And finally there must be education -- some technique,
> > however primitive, for the transmission of culture.
>
> ok
>
> > Whether through imitation, initiation or instruction,
>
> take out the initiation and I'm with you
>
> > whether through father or mother, teacher or priest,
>
> leave out the priest
>
> > the lore and heritage of the tribe -- its
> > language and knowledge, its morals and manners, its technology and
> > arts -- must be handed down to the young, as the very instrument
> > through which they are turned from animals into men.
>
> <snip>
>
> > I let you choose which one is closer to HUMANISM OR CIVILIZATION.
>
> which one of what?
>
> nick keighley- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
I liked the closing part of the definition: "TURNED ANIMAL INTO MEN."
That's the purpose of CIVILIZATION.
People in France are mostly civilized, people in the Amazones too, but
sometimes you get places where the predators run the place (Hitler,
gangs, terrorists) and you may decide to call that place a JUNGLE. I
believe there are real jungles out there and I feel in the cage
sometimes.
KingOfTheApes
Maybe instead of trying to define what CIVILIZATION is, we should
should try to define what it is not. Or better what it is not in
practical ways...
GATED COMMUNITIES: AMERICA, MEXICO, COLOMBIA, BRAZIL, SOUTH AFRICA...
The Rich retire themselves from the jungle.
SUVs: Big Fish eats Little Fish, jungle by definition.
NO BIKES: Who wants to be at the bottom of the food chain? Very
IMPORTANT because you choose NOT to be a predator or just be civilized
toward the environment and humanity.
CORRUPTION, HOMELESSNESS, GANGS, TERRORISTS, GUERRILLAS, ROAD MANNERS,
LACK OF UNIVERSAL HEALTHCARE, LAWS ARE NOT ENFORCED OR PREDATORY IN
NATURE...
KingOfTheApes
wrote:
> On 24 Oct, 17:32, ComandanteBanana <nolionnoprob...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Oct 24, 11:04 am, Nick Keighley <nick_keighley_nos...@hotmail.com>
> > > > I have searched for two definitions of CIVILIZATION... One seems a
> > > > little bit funny and sounds like the Law of the Jungle, and the other
> > > > sounds far more civilized...
>
> > > > Civilization is an outcome of strong culture and religion of the
> > > > society!!!
>
> > > > Strong cultural and religious growth play important role for a strong
> > > > society,
>
> > > I consider religious growth to be part of the problem
>
> > Yes, I do too. They help a little with the poor, but also use that
> > help to capture their mind.
>
Oh, because CIVILIZATION may be defined in many ways, and I want
people to choose one over the other.
>
> > And they are waiting for Jesus to come and fix things up. Just do
> > nothing. (coming soon)
>
> > > > gives strong identity to one society which initiates other
> > > > small societies to join or bigger population of same society who
> > > > follow their ideology.
>
> > > ideology is the root of all evil
>
> > Wow, I don't know how to contradict that. We may say HYPOCRISY AND
> > LIES are the root of all evil too.
>
> I'm not so against hypocrisy. And the odd white lie isn't harmful.
The church depends on it. You think most people really believe let
alone practice the Bible?
>
> You do know your ALL CAPITAL words are slightly irritating and add
> nothing to your posts?
Well, let's say it's not civilized and I will work on it, but I don't
want you to OVERLOOK the part in capitals.
>
> > > > Thus a large and strong and large society is
> > > > established. So Cultural and religious growth of the society in one
> > > > era is civilization.
>
> > > no
>
> > That sounds like PREACHING, right?
>
> I don't consider religious growth to be beneficial to a society
Not at all. Perhaps religious shrinking as evidenced in Western Europe
shows more civilized behavior.
> > Maybe we have to have a meaning, but that meaning does NOT have to be
> > religion, nationalism, or democracy.
>
> I don't agree that there must be unity. Diversity is fun to.
I know. But there's always a unifying goal. Or else we would be
promoting full blast anarchism... and that sounds like uncharted
territory.
I settle for HUMANISM based on practical goals, such as:
http://webspawner.com/users/donquijote1
>
> > We are so proud of being a Christian American living in Democracy.
> > Maybe we can believe in TRUTH or something real, right?
>
> I am neither american nor christian. I'm not sure what you mean by
> "belief". I believe the sun will rise tomorrow does that help
> strengthen my culture?
But you still live in the West and the West is defined by America and
led by America and doomed by America. So we are all in the same boat.
>
> > > > that lifts morality from calculation to devotion,
>
> > > no. Civilisation is possible without devotion or ideology. I regard
> > > myself as civilised and I'm not devoted to anything.
>
> > Well, I'm devoted to the TRUTH, and probably you are too.
>
> see previous comment
Forgot it already.
>
> > (Hunting the LIE-ON or lion)
>
> not sure what that is supposed to mean. Try to be less gnomic.
Hunter of the lie, lion hunter, based on these stories of the jungle:
http://webspawner.com/users/donquijote
Perhaps HUNTING FOR THE LION could be the unifying theory if we look
at the world as a jungle. Quite fun too, just like a safari! ;)
Well, it's metaphorical language and perhaps the common people need
something colorful (like the talking serpent in Adam and Eve) to
believe in.
>
> <snip>
>
> > > > And finally there must be education -- some technique,
> > > > however primitive, for the transmission of culture.
>
> <snip>
>
>
>
>
>
> > > > Whether through imitation, initiation or instruction,
>
> > > take out the initiation and I'm with you
>
> > > > whether through father or mother, teacher or priest,
>
> > > leave out the priest
>
> > > > the lore and heritage of the tribe -- its
> > > > language and knowledge, its morals and manners, its technology and
> > > > arts -- must be handed down to the young, as the very instrument
> > > > through which they are turned from animals into men.
>
> > > > I let you choose which one is closer to HUMANISM OR CIVILIZATION.
>
> > > which one of what?
>
> > I liked the closing part of the definition: "TURNED ANIMAL INTO MEN."
> > That's the purpose of CIVILIZATION.
>
> I'm not sure I draw the same line between animal and man as you do.
> Man is an animal with a culture. Civilisation doesn't have a purpose.
> It is a collection of cultural practices that allows people to rub
> along together.
So Holland is civilized, and Afghanistan and Congo too. I prefer not
to collect them together.
Yes, the latter do have a culture, but live under the Law of the
Jungle.
>
> > People in France are mostly civilized,
>
> "We gave them Calais,
> They gave us the bidet.
> That's why we hate the French"
The French also gave the world a lot of trouble under Napoleon, but
that's forgiven already, right? ;)
The bidet is civilized.
KingOfTheApes
wrote:
> > Well, it's metaphorical language and perhaps the common people need
> > something colorful (like the talking serpent in Adam and Eve) to
> > believe in.
>
> I distrust anyone who talks about "the common people" like this. It
> sounds incredible patronising.
Let's start where we disagree. The "common people" is a redundancy to
differentiate them the beautiful people... and even perhaps we here in
the Internet. I've found different reactions to the same thing. The
common people is begging for change but at the same time absorbed in
their own survival in the jungle.
Orwell --my inspiration-- talks about three classes of people, the
hope being the Proles.
>
> > > > > > And finally there must be education -- some technique,
> > > > > > however primitive, for the transmission of culture.
>
> <snip>
>
> > > > I liked the closing part of the definition: "TURNED ANIMAL INTO MEN."
> > > > That's the purpose of CIVILIZATION.
>
> > > I'm not sure I draw the same line between animal and man as you do.
> > > Man is an animal with a culture. Civilisation doesn't have a purpose.
> > > It is a collection of cultural practices that allows people to rub
> > > along together.
>
> > So Holland is civilized, and Afghanistan and Congo too. I prefer not
> > to collect them together.
>
> > Yes, the latter do have a culture, but live under the Law of the
> > Jungle.
>
> Holland is perhaps a more civilised place to live. Somalia doesn't
> sound a fun place to be.
Exactly it doesn't sound like fun. But if YOU ARE A TOP PREDATOR,
SOMALIA MAY BE GREAT!
That's why you always have to take into account the opinion of the
predator (upper classes) and prey (lower classes).
>
> > > > People in France are mostly civilized,
>
> > > "We gave them Calais,
> > > They gave us the bidet.
> > > That's why we hate the French"
>
> > The French also gave the world a lot of trouble under Napoleon, but
> > that's forgiven already, right? ;)
>
> I'm english we're never going to forgive the french for
> anything! :-)
OK, forgive them for the sake of the European Union. ;)
>
> > The bidet is civilized.
>
> useful for washing your feet. I explained what a bidet was for to one
> of my friends. She was horrified.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
See, the French invented the use for it when water was scarce. ;)
KingOfTheApes
interesting link on GATED COMMUNITIES. It says they are in decay as
much as the Berlin Wall and that like the feudal cities of the Middle
Ages they are bound to disappear. In other words, that there's nothing
civilized about them. Here's a comment...
'private "security" costs are a form of self-taxation, a misdirection
of money that could be used for good schools, secure housing and
universal health care. In our capitalist society of winners and
losers, both winners and losers must live in a constant state of
anxiety. You may be rich today but could lose everything tomorrow. No
one would like to live like the poorest Americans!'
http://www.alternet.org/story/69582/
But I think they are actively being exported along SUVs and
Globalization while there's so much insecurity and inequality out
there. Well, maybe it wasn't America that created them, maybe Colombia
or something. SUVs and Globalization are American though, or
Chinese?
KingOfTheApes
America created these problems, as Colombia and China may have created
respectively the Gated Communities and Globalization. As for the SUVs,
I think it was the British with their Land Rovers conquering the
jungles of the world that gave America the idea by means of the nature
shows in the BBC.
In other words, we have a Global Problem and we don't know how it
started and how to solve it.